Transcript

Trump’s Epstein Problem Just Got Worse

From Pod Save America · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 10 min · 13,429 words · 140 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Trump’s Epstein Problem Just Got Worse", an episode of Pod Save America published February 10, 2026 (1 h 10 min, about 13,429 words). It mentions 17 people, works and ideas, including Donald Trump, Epstein file, Ben Rhodes, Alex Lagner, Gileain Maxwell.

What this episode is about

The main topic addresses the controversial activities surrounding Donald Trump's "Freedom 250" initiative, which appears to be a public-private partnership designed to profit from America's 250th anniversary through extravagant events, including a UFC fight at the White House and a monumental arch in Washington, D.C. The initiative has drawn scrutiny for its funding sources, reliance on taxpayer money, and promotion of access to Trump for million-dollar donations, raising questions about ethics and influence in political fundraising.

Key takeaways

  • Freedom 250: where a million bucks buys you a handshake with Trump—capitalism, patriotism, and a punchline all in one.
  • For $2.5 million, you can talk independence at DC's rally—who needs historical figures when you have Saudi billionaires?
  • Amidst cringeworthy celebrations, Freedom 250 turns America's 250th anniversary into a stage for Trump's ego, not its citizens.
  • Freedom trucks and mobile museums? More like a rolling testament to America's history of grifting through patriotic narratives.
  • With every dollar donated, the story of America shifts—exclude the inconvenient truths and let Trump rewrite the narrative.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Donald Trump, Ben Rhodes, America 250, Hillsdale College
  2. – 20:00: Donald Trump, Hillsdale College, PragerU, Alex Lagner
  3. – 30:00: Epstein file, Gileain Maxwell, Sundays for Dogs, Donald Trump
  4. – 40:00: Epstein file, Donald Trump
  5. – 50:00: Squarespace, Donald Trump
  6. – 1:00:00: New York Times
  7. – 1:10:00: Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Mint Mobile, Epstein file

Notable quotes from "Trump’s Epstein Problem Just Got Worse"

  • Zealand on tour and licking their wounds from the Patriots absolutely pathetic performance in the Super Bowl. And so Ben and I are here to hold down the fort and let's be…
    about Alex Lagner · at
  • The Times reported that Freedom 250 is offering quote bespoke packages that promise surprise access to Trump. For a $1 million donation, you can attend a private reception with the president.
    about Donald Trump · at
  • Textbooks that celebrate colonialism and downplay the harms of slavery. and also in conjunction with Hillsdale College, which is a conservative liberal arts college that is now…
    about Hillsdale College · at
  • That we have to be willing to have, right? And so this is an organic book plug. I have this book that's about the 250 year history of our battle over American identity. And I…
    about Ben Rhodes · at
  • Which this president is like the biggest grifter we've ever had in office. for example, I think the New York Times was reporting that Trump's Bitcoin is largely floated by…
    about New York Times · at
  • And it doesn't smell as bad. And also, Leo loves it. Runs to the bowl every time we put it in. Make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to sundays fordogs.com/crooked50 and get…
    about Sundays for Dogs · at
  • Condemned Maxwell's offer. Meanwhile, members of Congress are set to get their first look at unredacted versions of the Epstein files this week. perpetual thorn in the side of…
    about Epstein file · at
  • This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to elevate your online presence and drive your success. Squarespace provides all.
    about Squarespace · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Donald Trump — Person · Primary political subject (referenced) · 10 mentions · first at
    Central figure in the episode’s discussion of alleged corruption/grift around America’s 250th anniversary and the Epstein/Maxwell pardon dynamics.
  • Ben Rhodes — Person · Co-host · 3 mentions · first at
    Co-leads the episode’s analysis, framing Trump’s 250th-anniversary plans as identity politics plus monetized corruption; also discusses Epstein/Maxwell and DHS/ICE strategy.
  • Alex Lagner — Person · Host (as named in transcript; likely Alex Wagner) · 2 mentions · first at
    Introduces and steers the episode’s segments (Freedom 250/Trump, Maxwell/Epstein, DHS/ICE, RFK Jr.). Name appears to be a transcript/ASR variant of the host’s name.
  • Gileain Maxwell — Person · Referenced defendant / pardon subject (Ghislaine Maxwell; name misspelled in transcript) · 3 mentions · first at
    Discussed as seeking clemency/pardon from Trump in exchange for purported exoneration; used to illustrate corruption, credibility issues, and the Epstein-files political fallout.
    Conspirator currently serving 20 years in federal prison. The lawyer said that Maxwell is ready to speak fully and honestly and deliver a complete account that could possibly…
  • Robert F. Kennedy Jr. — Person · Referenced government official (criticized) · 2 mentions · first at
    Cited as 'Secretary Robert F. Kennedy' and criticized for anti-science/anti-vaccine associations and for a bizarre 'Super Bowl snack lineup' anecdote used for political ridicule.
    Shutdown over Democrats push to impose some kind of checks on ICE lawlessness and Secretary Robert F. Kennedy's absolutely disgusting Super Bowl snack lineup. But first, a New…

Companies & orgs

  • PragerU — Company · Business focus · 4 mentions · first at
    Discussed in the context of its conservative educational content and partnership with Freedom 250.
    That are touring the country throughout the year. These, I guess we'll call them mobile museums, were created in partnership with Prageru, which is a company that pumps out…
  • Hillsdale College — Company · Business focus · 4 mentions · first at
    Discussed in the context of its involvement in conservative education reforms and partnership with Freedom 250.
  • Binance — Company · Referenced topic · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of its involvement with Trump's Bitcoin holdings.
    Xiao, who's a billionaire mogul who was in jail who Trump pardoned. And now, oops, coincidentally, 85% of Trump's Bitcoin is held in accounts on Binance, even though the…

Concepts & topics

  • Epstein file — Concept · Core topic · 8 mentions · first at
    Central theme of the episode, discussing the implications and political fallout of the Epstein files.
  • Bitcoin — Concept · Referenced topic · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of Trump's financial dealings and potential corruption.
    Xiao, who's a billionaire mogul who was in jail who Trump pardoned. And now, oops, coincidentally, 85% of Trump's Bitcoin is held in accounts on Binance, even though the…

Places & events

  • America 250 — Event · Key argument · 2 mentions · first at
    Discussed as a controversial celebration of America's semiquincentennial, co-opted by Trump for political and financial gain.
    Private partnership similar to the one that Trump is using to fund his ballroom monstrosity. Freedom 250 is the vehicle the administration is using to stage a UFC fight on the…
  • UFC — Event · Key argument · 2 mentions · first at
    Discussed as part of the controversial plans for America's 250th anniversary celebration under Trump.
    Private partnership similar to the one that Trump is using to fund his ballroom monstrosity. Freedom 250 is the vehicle the administration is using to stage a UFC fight on the…

Media & podcasts

  • New York Times — Media · Referenced source · 5 mentions · first at
    Cited as a source of reporting on Trump's financial dealings and the Epstein files.

Sponsors

  • Squarespace — Product · Sponsor · 3 mentions · first at
    Promoted as a sponsor of the podcast, offering website building services.
  • Sundays for Dogs — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Promoted as a sponsor of the podcast, offering premium dog food.
  • Mint Mobile — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Promoted as a sponsor of the podcast, offering wireless services.
    Still overpaying for wireless. Are you that friend? Then it's time to switch to Mint Mobile. Stop paying way too much for wireless just because that's how it's always been.…
  • Simply Safe Home Security — Product · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at
    Promoted as a sponsor of the podcast, offering home security solutions.
    Simply Safe Home Security. Love is in the air, but so are porch pirates and other threats. Protect the ones you love this Valentine's Day with Simply Safe.

Full transcript with timestamps

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Alex Lagner. I am Ben Rhodess. John, John, Tommy, and Dan are in New Zealand on tour and licking their wounds from the Patriots absolutely pathetic performance in the Super Bowl. And so Ben and I are here to hold down the fort and let's be honest, show them up. On today's show, Gain Maxwell again begs President Trump for a pardon. The government inches closer to a partial shutdown over Democrats push to impose some kind of checks on ICE lawlessness and Secretary Robert F. Kennedy's absolutely disgusting Super Bowl snack lineup. But first, a New York Times report over the weekend offered another look into how Trump and his allies are turning America's 250th birthday into a money-making, influence pedalling grift to promote right-wing policies and inflate the president's very fragile ego. The story highlighted Freedom 250.

Freedom 250, a dubiously legal public private partnership similar to the one that Trump is using to fund his ballroom monstrosity. Freedom 250 is the vehicle the administration is using to stage a UFC fight on the White House lawn. Yes, you heard that correctly. In celebration of, I guess, the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Apparently, it also has its hands in the 250 foot tall triumphal arch that Trump is hoping to build right outside of Washington DC. The Times reported that Freedom 250 is offering quote bespoke packages that promise surprise access to Trump. For a $1 million donation, you can attend a private reception with the president.

But for $2.5 million, you can speak at a Fourth of July rally in DC because nothing says American independence like Saudi billionaires speaking on the National Mall. Right, Ben?

Yes. That's how I always celebrate actually in my house. I mean, if NBS isn't there, it's not really the Jul 4th of July. Anyway, Freedom 250 has also reportedly received at least $10 million in taxpayer money, which they used to build a fleet of quote freedom trucks that are touring the country throughout the year. These, I guess we'll call them mobile museums, were created in partnership with Prageru, which is a company that pumps out conservative textbooks that celebrate colonialism and downplay the harms of slavery. and also in conjunction with Hillsdale College, which is a conservative liberal arts college that is now at the very center of a movement to dewify kindergarten through grade 12 education by overhauling curricula and starting charter schools across the country.

Here's a little taste of how Freedom 250 is going to be spending more of that donor/taxpayer money per their Super Bowl ad that you might have missed, but that aired on Sunday. Generations ago, ordinary people risked everything to begin it. 250 years later, the work continues because freedom is worth it. This year, America turns 250.

Oh, man. I didn't realize. I did not. I actually was maybe had my face too full of ribs. I didn't really realize what I was looking at at that moment, Ben. But do you have a spare 2.5 million to borrow? Because it's always been my dream to open up for NBS on the National Mall. Uh, I mean just goosebumps thinking about this sincere and earnest patriotism, Alex. Uh, I mean, look, the the thing about this is like first of all, like everything else, like the grift is a feature, not a bug, right? If there's anything that can be monetized by Trump in some fashion, he's going to do it. America's 250th anniversary is no different. And you know, I can expect that the roster of people lining up to write those checks, while they won't include you and me, are going to include people who, you know, have are shopping for pardons for their friends, people with business before the federal government, etc. Right? Um, so it's for

sale. Uh, I think the other thing that is kind of grotesque about this is you have to see in the context of it's an election year, right? And so this is all going to be kind of part of one big campaign essentially that's going to be enormously funded. um to kind of buttress MAGA at a time when people are souring on it. Uh where every public opinion poll shows uh like a precipitous drop, right, in support for Trump. Well, you know, he'll try to jin people up with a UFC fight on the south lawn and then a bunch of patriotic displays. But I I think the serious part, Alex, like that I've been thinking about a lot um is that this isn't like a coincidental or secondary part of what's been going on because what they're trying to do that's actually serious um is take full custody of the American story, right?

So the 250 years of this country are really just about their story of what that is, right? which, let's face it, excludes, you know, pretty much non-white people, uh, excludes the kind of agitators and activists and people that pointed out inconvenient truths about the United States, whitewashes our past, and glorifies Donald Trump as kind of the inheritor of this 250 years of of history, right? And that's that's deadly serious, right? I think we should take that that very seriously beyond just the tackiness and grift of it all. We we should spend some time talking about the involvement of Hillsdale College and Prageru in all of this because they are the sort of for-profit arm of the whitewashing of America and making it white again. But to just talk about I think as a per public service announcement we should we should delineate the difference between America 250 which is the nonpartisan

congressionally operation to celebrate America's semiquincentennial. I learned I was today years old when I realized that's how you call the 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, the semiquincentennial. Uh that is a nonpartisan nonprofit organization that encourages Americans to do crazy like public service in honor of of the 250th anniversary. Freedom 250, which is increasingly like the big sort of organization that the Trump administration is spending most of its capital on or rather uh political capital on and that they're encouraging to be the sort of branding lead in all of this is the slush fund for Trump's triumphal arc and also a drag race throughout the United throughout Washington DC which sounds like a really bad they all sound really like really bad ideas that in particular sounds like a really bad idea just on the grift alone the idea that I mean we should just take a

moment a solemn moment to look at the degradation of our legacy from a a country that would otherwise encourage civic participation and acts of selflessness to one where the highest office in the land, the person charged with shephering uh you know the constitution forward and our democracy is looking at this moment, this 250th anniversary as an opportunity for personal enrichment and ego uh fluffing. I mean, it's just so it's such a sad it's such a sad state of affairs. Why did the universe have to have Trump in office when the 250th anniversary came around? Couldn't it have been someone else?

Let me try to find a silver lining in this, right? Uh because yeah, look, the payto pay piece is going to be grotesque.

The monuments to himself are scary actually. I mean, they're they're silly and tacky, but like they're going to be real things that they at least try to build. It it reminds you of what like Kim Jong-un does in North Korea to like exalt himself. Like we're kind of at that place. But I I think that the opportunity for those of us listening in to this podcast probably feel some ambivalence about the upcoming festivities in a way that we wouldn't have if you know Barack Obama was president or frankly any normal person was president cuz now it's a little complicated to look at some of these symbols of patriotism right like the flag is being co-opted by Trump right the the military flyovers feel a little different when there's like fascism in our streets you know it's okay for people to feel a little conflicted about celebrating this 250th birthday. But I think there's an important like debate

that we have to be willing to have, right? And so this is an organic book plug. Uh I have this book that's about the 250 year history of our battle over American identity. And I start with JD Vance who gave a speech a few months ago in which he talked about what does it mean to be an American, right? What is American identity? And he said out loud that the Declaration of Independence and its commitment to, you know, the sentence all men are created equal is not what it means to be American. Yeah. That that's too loose a definition because then it could

Yeah. It's an idea and we're not an idea. We are blood and soil, right? We are a heritage-based nation, right? Which is, I think, profoundly wrong and it's a profoundly up reading of American history, right? Um, now it's also been a predominant story, but I think what people need to to honor and celebrate like is the alternative history of the United States, which is people fighting against that idea for 250 years. You know, we're not just a history of presidents and monuments. We are a history of activists, of agitators, of the civil rights movement, of the abolition movement, of women's rights movements, of LGBT movements, right?

That we are both of these things at once. And just because Donald Trump is going to try to ram one version of this down our throats, that's all the more reason. Look, people should go out and protest around the freaking UFC fight, which

Yeah, the semiquincentennial. Yes, the well the UFC fight, which by the way is coincidentally on on Donald Trump's uh birthday, too, which is a nice touch. Um, last year we got a military parade. This year we get like a Dana White sponsor UFC fight, right? So, but I think that's what we all need to take away from this is sure it sucks to see our institutions co-opted like this, but the American story is like the parts of it I like are usually about people who are standing up to that and and now it's our turn unfortunately to do it in this particularly grim qualentennial.

I'll say it four times fast. Yes. No, I think you're absolutely right that the best way to celebrate the rebellion against tyranny is to rebel against tyranny. Right. Um, I will just say on the level of corruption, um, there there's, you know, if you look not that hard, you can find a news story every day about the way in which this president is like the biggest grifter we've ever had in office. Um, for example, I think the New York Times was reporting that Trump's Bitcoin is largely floated by Binance, which is the crypto exchange um that had um it I founded by I believe it's Chungpang Xiao, who's a billionaire mogul who was in jail who Trump pardoned. And now, oops, coincidentally, 85% of Trump's Bitcoin is held in accounts on Binance, even though the exchange's platform is available only outside the United States. Right? That's happening. And that's clearly corrupt. and Craraven and would I'd argue part of what would be a

hallmark of kleptocracy and yet there's not real discussion about it. The difference between that and this is that people see the ballroom. People see the maybe plans for the arc to Trump. People will see presumably the drag race. People will see the UFC fight. And all of this is an exercise in the worst most inflated form of presidential ego if not outright fascism. like the investment is not in the country, it is in himself. And it because these are such public spectacles, I am optimistic that the p the the public push back in turn will hopefully be more pronounced.

Right? It's so awful. It's such an ugly degradation of everything our democracy is supposed to stand for in the way that him just pocketing crypto funds surreptitiously while he sits in the Oval Office or having his lackey do that is just not as transparent to the American public. That level of corruption. This is the the ballroom has not gone over well with the American public and something tells me an arc to Trump and a drag race and a UFC fight are not what people want on the south lawn of the White House.

Yeah, you and I are old enough to remember the uh hip-hop barbecue that Obama had on the south lawn of the White House which spawned the Dan Feifer's favorite Fox News headline. Uh hip-hop uh barbecue fails to create jobs. Um but uh this UFC fight is not going to create jobs. Uh you know, that's for sure. And and look, I I think you're right though. What's grotesque about the corruption is that Trump is actually leveraging like the United States for his own interest. So the like the the other glaring example that came out recently, right, was this story that lo and behold, shortly before the inauguration, right, that you had this massive UAE investment in uh Trumpcoin and then lo and behold, Trump lifts all restrictions on American technology going to UAE, right? That's him leveraging, you know, national power, national assets for his own personal gain. But it's a complicated story and sometimes a ballroom or a drag

race is a helpful way to just have a symbol that captures for people um how self-interested this is, how grotesque this is, how corrupt this all is, right? And there's something like pretty unamerican too about a a living leader, right? Uh building monuments and arc arcs to himself, right? like this is the kind of thing that we're accustomed to seeing in you know unitary dictatorial states in other countries right and and so I think that that the challenge is wrapping this whole story up for people

they're not these separate categories right we're mad about corruption and we're mad that he's not doing enough to deal with affordability um and we're mad that you know he's got fascist tendencies no it's all one big thing right all those things are related he's not dealing with affordability because he's using office to enrich himself which he's doing, you know, but fueling an ideology that is fundamentally kind of fascistic and about himself and not the country, right? It's all one story about Donald Trump caring about himself and his rich friends and not you. And he'll even kind of take custody of the most precious and shared history that we have as Americans to get that done. and and he'll make use of this kind of infrastructure of right-wing, you know, PragerU or whatever it is um to do so.

That that shows you this has been building for a long time. They built all this infrastructure. Um so that's the scale of the challenge we're up against. But the good news is if you can tell that story, I think a huge majority of Americans uh are either uncomfortable or outraged by that.

On the freedom truck front, I immediately thought of the mitzvah trucks. If you're a New York City resident, you know what I'm talking about. They come out during the Jewish high holidays and they're these really loud trucks run in large part by the Lubovich sect of um Orthodox Jews meant to convert unsuspecting bystanders on the streets of New York City uniformly men. And I always kind of smirk at these things and think you're not are you really is are I mean it's like it's not like a Mr. Softy truck. There's not like a line around the block. And are they effective? Um, for those who don't have experience with the mitzvah truck, I wonder how convincing a freedom truck run by Prageru and Hillsdale College really can be. These guys are not known for subtlety like espousing the way in which slavery was effectively good for black people and climate denialism is like a form of um patriotism and the way

that uh uh colonialism had its benefits. All these things I think people it underestimates grossly the intelligence of the American public. But I don't know, Ben, how nefarious do you think these things are?

Well, I you know I think uh I won't be hitching a ride on a freedom truck. Um I I I I think

you're not a freedom rider. Yeah. Yeah. To give a whole new meaning to freedom rider, right? Um, I think one thing that where we and you know, Democrats have to have more kind of confidence right is

they've been wearing us down on the culture wars, right, for, you know, decades, right? Um, and the reality though is that that whole mindset behind those freedom trucks and the anti-woke stuff and the anti-Dei stuff and the whitewashing of history kind of felt to to to the intended audience, which admittedly is not you and me, Alex, um, countercultural, you know, it was like suddenly

like the this kind of blood and soil nationalist like racist um, right-wing set of views was fundamentally counterultural, right? Because it seemed like, you know, they lost the culture wars. But I think part of what people are experiencing in the Trump years is, you know, particularly the second term is that that's not the counterculture anymore. Like they're in charge, you know, and they are doing to us everything that they said we did to them. They're trying to ram their views down our throats. They're trying to stifle free speech, right? They're trying to say there's only one version of American history and there's no other version that can even be taught in schools. And you know, ironically, you know, it's turned out that their views were projection all along, right? That that they were the ones that are fundamentally kind of against the freedoms that they claim to espouse, right? So, like I said, this kind of

core argument about American identity is one I think we shouldn't be shy about having because as we've seen in Minneapolis, like that's what it looks like, right? Yeah, I mean on the one side you got people trying to ram it down everybody else's throats and they're heavily armed and the other you got people exercising what Americans think of as pretty core freedoms and like that that that that's the that's what's going on in the whole country right now and every time I see a freedom truck like that's what I'll see.

Well, yeah. And the whole concept of like a freedom truck being run by Hillsdale College is not like a countercultural like own the libs phenomenon. It's like the most sort of like uh it's like an incredibly uh handsfolded in the lap scoldy kind of version of conservative ideology that does not resonate with I don't know Logan Paul, right? Like they they've so fir like at this moment of of terrorizing black and brown communities. They're and and like insulting Bad Bunny, right? Making clear their just avowed white nationalism and white supremacism. white supremacism. They're sending these trucks out to sort of like seal the deal. And I just think nobody's buying it. I think people see what's happening. They see what the ultimate objective is. And like you can drive a bus around town as much as you want playing a Trump video. I just don't think that's I just don't think that's the way you gain converts. And if

anything, they should be excusing they should be offering some explanation as to how they're not white supremacists and going after Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl. Like it's just like there's no there there is no argument to be made that this is anything other than white supremacy.

Yeah. The whole thing feels akin to like a pre-taped Kid Rock uh halftime show uh set against the Bad Bunny one. Right. Exactly.

Uh we can win culture wars, people. Like we don't necessarily have to hide our heads in the sand about them and repeat, you know, beautiful talking points about, you know, middle class economics. like that's important, but fundamentally all of this is about like what does it mean to be American? What should our government be focused on? Um and and and you know, Trump is giving us plenty of of arguments for why he is not the answer to those questions.

Yeah. And I'll just say one thing I think that that we should all learn from Bad Bunny and I know the Super Bowl was on Sunday, but he his legacy live his lessons live on through the week. to do to make the argument for a multi-racial inclusive America using joy as the vehicle is real effective. Um and

yeah, show don't tell too, right? Exactly. You know, he didn't have to give a he didn't have to say ice out or something uh during the Super Bowl. Like he it was an affirmative positive thing. And look, this is something again like,

you know, Obama didn't do everything right, you know. Um, but one of the things that he did right is his multi-racial case was one of affirmation. It wasn't like America's horrible. We must, you know, acknowledge how horrible it is in order to fix it. Um, that may have been a subtext of progressive politics in this country for a long time. What Obama would say is this country is so great that we've been able to change before and we can do it again. you know, um, and look at what, you know, the promise is of multi-racial democracy and like the Bad Bunny thing, like it it it showed that, you know, and it, I guess, apart from people having to listen to Spanish, like it's hard to find anything else threatening in that presentation.

I'd way rather be at Bad Bunny's Rumbar than anywhere with Kid Rock. And I'll leave it there.

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Talking about other places I don't want to find myself, the Epstein files. Okay.

Yes. So far so good on that front, Alex. Congratulations. I feel confident. On Monday morning, the lawyer for Galain Maxwell, that's of course Gain Maxwell, the Epstein conspirator currently serving 20 years in federal prison. The lawyer said that Maxwell is ready to speak fully and honestly and deliver a complete account that could possibly clear both President Trump and President Clinton of any wrongdoing. Her only condition, Ben, President Trump must first grant her clemency.

Points for ballsiness. That offer came during Maxwell's virtual deposition on Monday before the House Oversight Committee where Glain Maxwell pleaded the fifth over and over again. Now, both Democrats and Republicans on the oversight committee criticized Maxwell's refusal to answer questions, and Democrats, no Republicans, immediately condemned Maxwell's offer. Meanwhile, members of Congress are set to get their first look at unredacted versions of the Epstein files this week. Uh, perpetual thorn in the side of the Trump administration. Thomas Massie and Roana were the first to view the files on Monday afternoon. Um I I I read this lawyer says complete exoneration for Trump in Epstein files if Maxwell glinted granted clemency and I thought I mean even for Galileain Maxwell this is pretty like there's not even what do you call a quidd proquo that's just um like public extortion. I don't I don't even know like what was

first of all what do you what do you what do you make make what do you make of the offer Ben? Well, you know what's so funny is that like the interest of Maxwell and Trump so obviously converge too. Like the quid proquo is so evidently in both of their interests, you know, right? Like she wants out.

I think he would. Although I do think he would face some blowback if he just pardoned Gain Maxwell. I mean, his own people would not be that

he would. But this is what's been so strange about this whole thing all the time is that none of what he's tried to do in this account has worked, right? So nobody believed when Todd Blanch's personal attorney become deputy AG met with Maxwell and said, "Oh, you know, she she exonerated Trump, like it made it worse, right? When she was transferred to this kind of country club prison um after that meeting with Todd Blanch, it made it worse for Trump, right? And and so his efforts to kind of get himself out of this through the normal like obfiscate, find someone to lie on your behalf, like tell your followers there's nothing to see here, like that's not working in this case because of like Maga's long-term commitment to this issue because of the underlying grotesque nature of the crimes being exposed. Um, and look, I just I don't think anybody's going to buy this. You know, I can see why she's

trying to make this play, but there's no way that she's credible. like why would anyone trust someone who was kind of central to a child sex trafficking ring for this long? Um and you know she can try to do what she wants but I think the other thing that's interesting here is that this kind of you know combination of Clinton and Trump

interest can we talk about that they're not usually it's part of a the same two for one deal. Well, I think again like just to be blunt, Alex, like Republicans or Trump at least seem to overstate the extent to which Democrats like want to somehow exonerate Bill Clinton in all this right?

Do that. Um well, they don't. And the way that Trump talks about this like recently like he had, you know, this thing where he feels sorry

Republicans, sorry, I I did not mean to react that way. You're saying Republicans overestimate how much Democrats actually want to clear Clinton's a good name.

I think good in quotes. And so Trump's kind of hugging Bill Clinton like uh you know um look at what they're doing to both of us, you know, it's unfair, etc., etc. And I I think what he's misreading is that like, you know, Democrats are are not like blind followers of a cult of Bill Clinton in the same way that, you know, Trump has had that kind of support in the Republican party. We're certainly not willing to kind of trade away our concerns about Trump being in these files tens of thousands of times, right? and clearly being witting based on at least what's come out, you know, the creepy drawing for the birthday book, the creepy kind of back and forth between the Mara Lago spa and like the Epstein network, right? like the the the fact that Trump believes that we Democrats are willing to kind of put that all aside to defend, you know, Bill Clinton is such a bizarre reading of politics, you know, uh and the

Democratic party and and also, I mean, independent of Bill Clinton's tarnish legacy within the Democratic party, Democrats genuinely, I believe, for the most part, give a about about holding to account people in power who are involved in the predation of children. Right? So there's a there's a genuine like ethical fiber that still exists, a moral fiber that still exists in in a shared fashion inside the Democratic party. And and on that note, I mean, I think it's really important that Democrats be seen. I mean, not even just be seen, that Democrats hold Clinton to account when he and Hillary are have to go testify in front of the House, as we expect them to, though they're still negotiating the terms of that. Democrats should robustly question him. And we're going to take this opportunity to talk about the relationship between Gain Maxwell and Bill Clinton. The New York Times has some, I think, important reporting about

how instrumental Gain Maxwell was in the creation of the Clinton Global Initiative. Um, she took part in budget discussions related to the first CGI conference. She talked through challenges about it with Clinton aids and the Publix Group, which is the company that produced that event. and she arranged to wire $1 million to pay publicly for its work on the quote Clinton project. And then then there's the the the most cringy part of all of this, the relationship between Galileain Maxwell and longtime Clinton Doug Band who had very flirtatious exchanges that I think our listeners want to hear about just because

I think they need to hear this. So, I think this is what happens when uh those guys are in New Zealand is, you know,

that's what happens when John, John, Tommy, and Dan are gone. When the cat's away, the mice will role play. That's what we're going to do. I'll just read a little excerpt of these emails between Doug Band and Gain Maxwell. And I'll play the part of Galain Maxwell. If you, Ben, will play the role of Doug Band as a role I know you were destined to play.

O, thanks for that, Alex. You can do it. Here we go. Here's Gain Maxwell to Doug Band via email. Boo Boo, are you around? I'm very ill and require immediate medical attention. I'm suffering from booooitis, a very serious condition. Without a boooo fix, the symptoms become very pronounced.

My boo booit itis is also reaching epic proportions. Lots going on, but we'll be in B booville the second you arrive.

They insist they have never Doug Band insists he has never had relations with that woman. Just kidding. That's what Bill Clinton said. But he does he does insist that he had no physical relations with

Gla Maxwell, which is makes me wonder what's Boo Itidis and where is Booville? Can you locate it on a map?

I I I'm very pleased that I could not identify Booville on a map. Alex gives me some hints about future correspondents I might want to have one day. But anyway, everyone's welcome for that. The point is uh Galain Maxwell uh interacted significantly with those in President Clinton's inner circles. There are a lot of questions and I hope Democrats do not flinch in asking them because this is very much about the truth and it's also about keeping the victims centered as well. Um, you know, Ben, you you said that Democrats need to figure out a way to tie all of this together. Everything from the corruption and the grift and the slush funds to the Epstein files and the inaction on economic concerns, all of it, like is there a rubric under which it all fits?

And I was struck by comments from Georgia Senator and candidate John Oaf on the campaign trail this weekend. Um he went viral after he was speaking about both MAGA and the Epstein files at a campaign rally in Atlanta and he coined a new phrase that I think we should be hearing a lot more of in the coming months. Let's listen to John Oaf.

Now you remember we were told that MAGA was for workingclass Americans. You remember that? But this is a government of, by, and for the ultra rich. It is the wealthiest cabinet ever. This is the Epstein class ruling our country. Trump was supposed to fight for the working class. Instead, he's literally closing rural clinics and hospitals to cut taxes for George Soros and Elon Musk.

Okay. The Epstein class. I just feel like you hear that and you think rich people, corrupt people, uh, lying people, and Trump's people. And I just think it's a very useful label to aix to all of this that brings home a lot of the issues altogether. What do you think of it, Ben?

Yeah, I I really liked it. And I think, you know, he he you know, we've seen all these different people trying different formulations and that one hit and it hit for a bunch of reasons, including this one. Let me unpack this. you know, um the the Trump side of the Epstein class, right, is pretty clear, right? Beyond Trump's own predatory behavior, um you also have the fact that there are a bunch of fabulously wealthy and unaccountable people on the right who essentially care above all about dismantling the government, kind of creating chaos and profiting off it themselves, right? Um and and you know we we don't even have to detail chapter and verse what those people do. Um it's on display every day in our lives right and it's everybody you know if you just look in the Epstein files sure like you can find some people on the right but it's also just kind of the broader uh millure if you will of the people around

Trump you know the kind of oligarchs. I think the challenge we have as Democrats that Osaf offers us a way out of though is the reason the Epstein files are also very damaging to people a certain kind of person on the center left is that it encompasses a lot of people right and we should say we don't know there there's a gradation of of crimes and misdemeanors in those files right there are men that clearly participated in praying on girls

in the absolute worst way then there are people that were just kind of cozy with Epste or part of his network or informally helped him uh and we don't have yet to see that they directly participated but if you if you look at all those people and I'm just talking about some people prominent names in there right some of those people uh and you know CGI is a part of this were the kind of people that went to Davos or you know went to the Clinton Global Initiative or went to whatever conference and they kind of talked about the you know fixing globalization and trying to help you know uh cure diseases in Africa or you know trying to uh virtue signal about you know fighting climate change and sustainable development all these things but at the same time they were perpetuating a system that was fundamentally rigged for the wealthy and well-connected and some of them were even flying down to Epstein

island and it's everything that you know people don't like about the kind of globalist elite of which the Democratic party you know has been pretty cozy with over the And so what Osafas formulation does is it loops together. It's a clean break. It's saying we're not just against the right-wing oligarchs or Trump when he does these bad things. We're turning the page on kind of this era of capitalism run a mock of, you know, powerful people, usually men, thinking that they could act without accountability or with impunity or they could say one thing uh to virtue signal at a conference and then behave a certain way uh in their private lives on their private planes and private islands. And and so this kind of ties it all together, right?

Because it's it's the corruption, it's the inequality, it's the excesses um and extreme inequality in our economy all put together into this Epstein class, which by the way, Democrats can say like we we need to clean house, too. Like, you know, we need to leave that behind. If we lose certain political donors, fine, right? If we don't get invited to certain elite conferences, fine. Like we we actually want to fight for a different America.

Yeah. It's the uh it's it it really emphasizes the filthy part of the filthy rich, right? The Epstein class. And it gives an opportunity, I don't mean to sound dismissive, but it gives Democrats the opportunity to wear the hair shirt as well and say like we have work to do. It's not just um you know, Steve Bannon and Donald Trump who are in these files. It's also Larry Summers and Bill Clinton and we're going to clean house as you say, as we should. Um because I think it's important to um you know make sure that it's not doesn't seem partisan, right? That the the anti-corruption zeal is nonpartisan.

I I don't normally do this as like listeners of pods of the world know and I'm you know willing to be very self-critical about things in the Obama years. Um I I only use this as an example of a a political message that worked which is in 2008 when he was running for president. The thing that resonated was that we wanted to turn the page on the failed politics of the past. And the leading example of that at the time was the Iraq war. But the turn the page frame that Obama used was about not just George Bush taking us to war, but all the Democrats who voted for the Iraq war, right, which included Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden and a whole roster of people, right? And because it was a bipartisan critique,

Yeah. it had more credibility, right? It was like, well, this guy's not just limiting his concern uh for corruption or for bad mistakes to the other side, right? And and that's what I think we need to do with this kind of Epstein class point is that that that because we're willing to include, you know, parts of our team in this, we have more credibility to say we actually want to change things. I think the Epstein controversy, scandal, saga, whatever you want to call it, is alive in voters's minds, which sort of brings me to what's happening in Europe, right?

Because there it's very much uh uh alive and it's very kinetic and it holds a lot of electrical power, if you will. And I tend to think the same is true regardless of what the media coverage of Epstein is in in the in in the US. But I want to get your thoughts on this and contrast sort of how the British political infrastructure is responding to Epstein files versus how we're responding in America. Um, and I it's a good Pod Save the World tease for listeners because everybody should be listening to Pod Save the World like as often as they physically can. Sometimes listen to the same episode twice a week if possible because you get something new out of each episode. But anyway, um over the weekend, Mor Morgan Mweeny, who's uh Labour Prime Minister Kier Starmer's closest adviser, resigned.

Mweeny had advised Starmer to appoint Peter Mandelen as ambassador to the United States. And it turns out that Mandlesson was a close friend of Jeffrey Epstein. He maintained contact with Epstein after Epstein's 2008 conviction for soliciting sex from a minor. So the this is a quickly moving weather front, but like at various p points today, Ben, it looked like maybe the entire Labor government could fall over these Medson revelations. Starmer may have bought himself some more time here. But it is a stunning contrast with what's happened here as these names have come out. Like the only Republican to say boo about Epstein is Thomas Massie. And that's happening well. The president has mentioned is it 38,000 times in the Epstein files? Steve Bannon is mentioned multiple times. Howard Lutnik is the latest person to make headlines. He's the commerce secretary. He's all over the Epstein files despite protesting

that they had stopped contact much earlier. Uh for President Trump's former sidekick, Elon Musk is in the Epstein files. Why do you think that the UK acts so much more swiftly on the Epstein stuff and it's so much more of a liability overseas in the UK than it apparently is here? Is it just they have higher standards? I mean, don't even answer that question. I know they do, but what's the difference?

Well, I mean, just to illustrate the point, there are two institutions, a British royal family and the British government, right? So, you know, the two most powerful institutions in the country that have been absolutely rocked by the presence of two individuals in the Epstein files, right? So, famously like Prince Andrew is no longer Prince Andrew. King Charles today said he would support a police investigation into his brother, right? Right. I mean, the guys losing titles and land and whatever the hell they give uh the world's over there like, you know, at a at a dizzying pace,

free dental care. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure the benefit package is out, the 401k. Um and then Peter Mandel, uh who was this kind of labor insider, ambassador UK, he's all over these files and he's cozy with Epstein and he's sharing like sensitive market-based information with him. Um, and it almost brought down Kier Starman, the prime minister of the country, even though Kier Storm is not even in the files. And Morgan Mweeny for people, you know, don't follow British politics. I mean, this guy uh is like the chief political operative and chief, you know, of staff for Star, like indispensable to Cure Star um and his politics of the last few years. Losing him would be akin to Trump, you know, losing like Steven Miller and Susie Wilds, you know.

Well, we can dream, can't we? We can dream. That's what I was trying to do. Um now like why is that and also where does this go from here right because Starmer survived today but he's weakened and Labor could suffer an election loss uh in in upcoming elections and then there's a you know pretext or movement. We'll see what happens. Um I do think that uh in British politics um like there has not yet been the same removal of shame as a potential source of accountability. You know like

they still feel shame. Oh. Oh I see what you're telling me. They still feel shame.

They they can still be shamed. Like Boris Johnson resigned over co parties that he was on, right? Like that's unthinkable with Trump. Trump is so removed shame as a source of accountability. Um they also frankly just have a system where you got to face the music more, right? Kier Stormer had to go and do question time, right? Where the opposition basically yells at you and you have to respond and he didn't have good answers, including about Morgan Mcweeny. Like Trump never has to face that accountability. In our system, Trump is both the prime minister and the king, right? Like rolled into one. and frankly more and more he's the king. Um so like it's depressing to see that there's been more consequences in the UK over two individuals than there has been in the US over not just Trump's presence in these files but all these other people. However, I think that part of this uh furer in Europe is going to be

the perpetuation and investigation of these files. And this is something people should realize. In the UK and in several other European countries, investigations are being opened into the people in these files, including Americans. Investigations are being opened into Epstein's connections to intelligence agencies, right? Yeah. Um like they're going to pull these threads even if like, you know, Republican committees and Congress aren't. Other countries with lots of resources are going to do so just like in this country. I think journalists will too.

So I think the people who are, you know, breathing a sigh of relief that maybe the last dump of these files has happened are sorely mistaken because it has shaken up these other countries and they have the ability to do some of the follow-up that is not being done in this country.

Yeah. If we won't do it, the Polish prime minister will, right? I feel like Donald Tusk the Polish prime minister is like, uh, we need a wholesome investigation into Jeffrey Epstein's ties to Russian intelligence. Please and thank you. Right? Like what the thing about being in the middle of a a cabal of global elites is that when that cabal is revealed, the rest of the globe has an interest in getting to the bottom of it. And that's the rub for Donald Trump and his 38,000 mentions.

And a lot of them would like to see Trump uh you know cut down to size too. Like the chickens come good for the global community.

I believe respectful of those European countries, you know, right? It's just like the term wrecking ball, I think, was what was used to describe Trump today by Europeans. And turns out when you go around giving the middle finger to all of Western Europe, there's something such a thing as comeuppants. And perhaps he is in line for some of that. All right, we're going to jump to a quick break, but before we do, some quick housekeeping. Love it or leave it is returning to Washington DC on April 23rd. John Love It and DC's Funniest People, yes, DC has some funny people, will be live at the Lincoln Theater. Tickets are on sale right now.

Grab them before they're gone at crooked.com/events. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to elevate your online presence and drive your success. Squarespace provides all the tools you need to promote and get paid for your services in one platform. Create a professional website to showcase your offerings and attract clients. Whether you offer consultations, events, or other experiences, Squarespace can help you grow your business. Squarespace offers a complete library of professionally designed and award-winning website templates with options for every use and category. No matter where you start, your website is flexible to what you need with intuitive drag and drop editing, beautiful styling options, unrivaled visual design effects, onbrand AI content, and more ways to list what you offer. No experience required. Every dream needs a domain. Squarespace domain

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Pods of America is brought to you by Auraframes. Orframes is the answer to every gifting moment. Uh, I gave my parents an Aura Frame for Christmas this year. They absolutely love it. We take tons of pictures of the kids and all you have to do is just uh upload them using the Aura app and it appears on my parents frame and it looks beautiful and uh you can constantly refresh it. It's very easy to set up. Takes about 2 minutes. They love it and I highly highly recommend this as a gift uh for the people in your life, especially family when you're sending pics of the kids. You have complete control over who has access to your frame. And the Aura app lets you share photos more securely than with email, which many other digital frames require. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. Oraframes is the perfect gift every time. Named number one by wire cutter. You can save on the

perfect gift by visiting aurafurframes.com. For a limited time, listeners can get $35 off their bestselling Carver mat frame with code crooked. That's auraframes.com. Promo code crooked. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. I do want to talk about other sort of reckonings on the horizon because over in Congress back in Washington DC before the drag race that will hit the city streets in some certain amount of time, uh there is the clock is running on a deal to fund the Department of Homeland Security. Democrats are pushing for immigration enforcement reforms, including upholding use of force guidelines, ending racial profiling, and requiring judicial warrants when agents go onto private property. You know, the kind of normal constitutional stuff that Senate Majority Leader John Thun called unrealistic last week. I wish he would just like go through the Constitution

and highlight the parts he thought were unrealistic, telling them to follow, freedom of speech. Really, can we really do that? Anyway, on Monday, Thun said that there is quote a possibility of a deal. Although, we are going to see if Democrats are on the same page. As of this recording, everyone is very interested in this, but they're going to have to wait and see what becomes of Trump's personal paramilitary organization, aka ICE, and they're just going to have to sit tight and watch Jake Sherman's Twitter feed for the red siren emojis. Um, I am interested to know what you think. That's no diss on Jake Sherman. when I see those red siren emojis, I something in my deep lizard brain starts pinging. Um, what do you think of their strategy here? I I like with the benefit of hindsight, I am not in I think the shutdown strategy over healthc care premiums obviously did not get us anywhere near a resolution. 22

million Americans, 23 million Americans saw their health insurance premium skyrocket. We did an awesome episode of this. awesome in the sense that is compelling, not that it was good news on my podcast, Runaway Country, just the economic hardship people are facing, the very real choices they have to make about whether they can afford to go to the doctor or send their children to the doctor. That is a ve a real concern across this country. And it ties into this issue of affordability because if you don't have money for the doctor, you probably don't have money for bacon. Or if you do have money for bacon, it might be going towards paying for the doctor.

Whatever it is, it's an issue of pain. And I do think that Democrats, in hindsight, are probably going to gain something from their standoff with Republicans over this issue when it comes time for the 2026 midterms. But what do you think about the fight, and it's a smaller fight because it's just DHS funding we're talking about here. What do you think about this fight over ICE reforms? I think that like the healthcare thing is illustrative in the fact that um they had that fight. They didn't win in restoring the ACA subsidies, but they won in drawing extraordinary attention to it and making it very clear what they were for as against what the Republicans were for.

Um and then ultimately a bunch of Democratic senators got cold feet and the government reopened. But to fast forward to today, I don't think that they should be shy at all from being just as aggressive about ICE as they were about healthcare. Like often times it's Democrats we'd rather talk about healthcare than ICE. I don't think Americans like what ICE is doing. Uh the polls indicate that the kinds of reforms that the Democrats are advocating for like people not wearing masks, people following the law, like these are things that like are broadly popular. And I would not vote to provide a dollar funding to DHS if all those like demands are not met. Um and if if you know if that causes some kind of paralysis and shutdown or something, fine. Then let the spotlight be on the fact that these people are defending the necessity of having a paramilitary force in this country that is allowed to be masked and

detain American citizens without warrants because that's fundamentally the position that John Thun is taking in support of Christy Gnome and Steven Miller, right? Why not have that fight? And and if it may be that you grind it out for a few weeks and you know ultimately like they they they they wear you down but then you will have proven like just the length to which these people will go to perpetuate something that I think most Americans are deeply uncomfortable about. I obviously like would go even further like I I I want to get rid of ICE. We can talk about ways that you could do that but I just don't know why you would fund this. It's Christy Gnome's DHS you know for God's sakes. Uh it's what's been going on in Minneapolis and and and frankly I think there's opportunities for Democrats to reach some other voters, some some the don't tread on me crowd uh that are not comfortable with this either.

Well, and I I I the I was struck by this and I wrote about it for my Substack how the hell with Alex Wagner. the symmetry and the don't tread on me flags that were both outside of DC jail on January 20th, 2025 when I was waiting for Trump to pardon January 6 inmates and that whole crew and the don't tread on me flags that were outside of the Whipple detention center in Minneapolis. Uh, as I was in Minneapolis like a week and a half ago waiting to see what happened to detainees, there is a real sense that this is the jack booted government thug that has been war, you know, that has been conjured in uh, you know, conspiracy fantasies at the other end of the snake's tail. And like I agree with you. I think Democrats could pick up some support from libertarians who look at this and are like this is not the this is not the United States and this has to end. which brings to mind, you know, how Republicans

conduct themselves. There's a DHS oversight hearing on the calendar, I think slated for Tuesday of this week, and that in that includes the head of ICE, the acting head of ICE, Todd Lions. Now, my expectations for Republicans doing anything um in the the true fashion of oversight, my expectations are low. I would say the bar is buried deep in the ground near a well. But the guy running this hearing is uh Andrew Gabber Garberino who's a moderate Republican from the south shore of Long Island and has been known to take on the GOP at some points. I mean like do you think both as a matter of political survival and I don't know interest in making sure that this ICE doesn't act unlawfully. We might expect some real questioning from Republicans.

Yes, but it connects to the previous question, Alex, for this reason. Right. it is clear that Trump would like to get this off the headlines, right? So, when he finally kind of stepped in and sent Tom Hman um to take over for the kind of lunatics that were running the operation in Minneapolis, he didn't change anything fundamentally about how ISIS is operating, but it was meant to be this kind of pivot point, you know, meant to kind of show like let's all move on from talking about this cuz frankly talking about this has not been good for me or my politics. I don't think he sincerely gave a about what happened to Alex Prey or Renee Good or what's happening in Streets of Minneapolis. He just wanted to change the PR around it. And where the where they're going to try to park this thing is they'll have to continue what ICE is doing because it's so fundamental to Trump and his project, right? But they'll want to kind of park

it like let's get our funding, keep this thing going. Um let the occasional moderate republic who's in a tough race say some moderately critical things. Um, and it then looks like, you know, Trump has kind of lowered the temperature on this stuff and oh, there there might be these GOP guys who are like a little bit more reasonable than, you know, Steven Miller is on this and and that's where they want the issue. That's all the more reason for Democrats to to pick and continue to pick a fight about this. Like Trump is is retreating tactically because he knows this is a loser for him. So keep at it, you know, keep after the funding, keep after Christine Gnome, like keep after like the the

Do you hear us? cuz yes, the Republican party is not some moderate from New York. It's Steven Miller. Like that's what it is. And make that your foil here, you know. And by the way, the more you do that, if if what you're interested is in substance, which I am,

the more you're going to force other Republicans who are nervous about their own races to potentially agree with Democrats on these issues. This is the only way that the Democrats have any power whatsoever um in the first two years of the Trump administration is is kind of commanding attention using like the minimal leverage of your votes to fund the government um and making it as uncomfortable as possible for Republicans, including people you're running against in the House, uh to continue to stand with Trump. And then that either like is going to be something that achieves that list of ICE reforms or it's going to be something that all those Republicans are going to have to own heading into the midterm elections no matter what they say in some hearing with the head of ICE. As much as we talk about um Trump's retreat on this and the fact that he pulled 700 ICE officers out of Minneapolis, we

should not lose sight on, you know, the way the tactics have changed, but are equally as um brutal and pernicious. According to the AP, um people have reported that ICE agents are quote impersonating construction workers and delivery drivers and in some cases anti-ICE activists. Uh, and then there's the just abomination of what's happening inside the judicial system itself, which is less seen, but no less worse. The New York Times also reported the lead ICE lawyer in the state of Minnesota just left his job. And he is not the only one looking for the exit signs. Government lawyers like the one John and Dan talked about last week and the court system in general are it's entirely overwhelmed with immigration cases. for my episode for my podcast, Runaway Country, we heard about the very specific hell these immigration judges work in and the fact that they're all many of them are just getting fired with little explanation

from the Trump administration. Uh and now the White House with the blessing of the fifth circuit court of appeals is seeking to sideline immigration judges and just deny migrants bond hearings in order to hold them indefinitely or at least until they can be deported. I mean, it just feels like there's ice on the outside and then the inside. So, they they sort of break the will of the public on the outside using anti-onstitutional lawless brutal tactics, and then on the inside it seems like the design is crush the system, overwhelm it, and otherwise fragment it.

So, it's no longer functioning and you basically just militarize this part of the judicial system to get people out regardless of whether they're citizens and or whether they actually belong here. What do you think, Ben?

Yeah, that's that's absolutely right. And if if you actually look at the history, this is actually not even a particularly new tactic for the Republicans. So over the course of the last 10 or 15 years, one of the things that Republican majorities constantly did in Congress, um particularly around any failure of comprehensive immigration reform, remember those ideas? Um is that they would pour money into enforcement and then they would starve money for immigration judges. Right? So, at the precise time that you, and this is even predating the second Trump term, at the precise time that you are rounding up more people and putting them in detention centers, you are starving the funding for the immigration judges who can adjudicate those cases. And it's ultimately in service of this final endpoint, which is you're kind of completely federalizing the whole thing, and you want to get to a place where you

can bypass the judicial system and just deport people. And we saw this, you know, test of strength at the beginning, right, when they were deporting people who had not had a hearing. or at least trying to do so and we're occasionally stopped by judges. So like we have to understand like this is the playbook to to to stress and ultimately break the system and assume like total executive control. But that's why it's so essential to spotlight this thing because it is not popular. It is not something that like people are comfortable with just getting rid of the rule of law, you know, getting rid of the rule of law for people who could be US citizens or could be children, right?

Um and that's why we have to continue to follow the lead of the people in Minneapolis who spotlight these things. We also have to kind of be for fundamental reforms knowing that you know the bigger reforms are unlikely to happen when Trump is president. But I mean if you look past that like you know there things that need to be on the table like if we actually get a normal department of justice again like getting rid of ICE and moving immigration enforcement back to DOJ where actually it's under the rule of law instead of being separate and militarized from it.

You wrote a great and enlightening oped on this. People don't understand that immigration and naturalization is part of DHS, but then the immigration court judges are all appointed by DOJ and are literally under the purview of the attorney general, Pam Bondi, who's not exactly known for being, I don't know, the paragon of Lady Justice, Blind Justice. Anyway, I digress. Continue forward please.

No, but that's the problem is it used to all be a DOJ, right? So, immigration enforcement was there and the naturalization process was there, right? And it was done under the rule of law, right? and and the the agency was equally committed to enforcing immigration laws but also adjudicating citizenship claims and you know managing that process. Um I think if you can rebuild DOJ like put it back there, get rid of ICE and but but have immigration enforcement by all means but have it be done by DOJ which is technically supposed to enforce the laws in this country. And there are other reforms Democrats can be talking about like and you've talked a bit about this on Runaway Country, Alex, but the these private prisons, right? Right. I mean, you want to talk about corruption where we started, uh, you literally have people profiting off of these grotesque detention centers that, you know, children are being sent to. Like, we

need to get rid of that, too. I don't want people profiting off of the detention of of children who've been separated from their families. So, so there bigger reforms that, you know, candidly need to await the end of the Trump administration. I I I think though you can simultaneously have the fight on these common sense reforms that are very popular, spotlight the absolute abuses of power that Trump is engaged in, frankly reverse the politics of immigration as polling shows it has been shifting over the last few months and then have a bigger vision for what can replace a system that is so fundamentally broken.

Also, just read your op-ed because it lays out a lot of this and it's just like put it make it pocket sized and give it down to members of Congress. Today's presenting sponsor, it's a special one for us. Uh if you listen to this podcast, you may have heard us talk about uh someone named Barack Obama. Heard of him? Yeah. We're pretty excited to announce that uh the Obama Presidential Center officially opens this June on the south side of Chicago. It's a lot more than a library. It's an entire campus geared towards helping everyday people realize their ability to make real world change. Beyond the immersive museum exhibits, there's an athletic center, a theater, a media lab, a branch of the Chicago Public Library, a collection of brand new commissioned art, worldclass performances and original programming. The list goes on and on. How cool is that? It's very cool. I'm really excited to see it. I

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You talk about the detention centers, uh, Ben, and the news we get out of there out of these detention centers is sporadic, but almost uniformly awful. We have reports this week that at least two people at an ICE detention center for families have the measles. What do we know about the measles, Ben? It's highly contagious. We also know that immigration attorneys, at least one, has told the Washington Post that his clients at that same facility had not been given measles vaccines or been asked about their vaccination status.

And to me, this is like the the mashup of like Steven Miller's grotesque, abusive um immigration policies with uh RFK Junior's grotesque, barbaric, anti-scientific, antivax bent. Like, okay, here you go. Like a terrible, overcrowded detention center plus an unvaccinated population. Cool. That's Trump's America.

Yeah. It's just one big broken corrupt enterprise. And inevitably, it was all going to converge. like what is more of a sign of convergence than detained uh immigrant children getting uh visas, you know, because of Steven Miller's racism and Christine Gnome's nihilism and Robert F. Kennedy's fans conspiracy theorizing, right? Like this is all fundamentally, you know, coming together uh in a way that we're not even we're just over a year into this, Alex. So, so like God knows where we're going to be in a couple years, you know, when you we add a little Hex Seth to the stew and

Oh, God. little Howard Lutnik, another Epstein buddy, uh, to the stew here. It's not great.

I do have more to say on RFK and we're going to we're going to I don't know, do we call this an upote? It's a it's a vehicle for me to just talk about the the grossness of RFK, although it does conjure some visuals and I apologize in advance. Um, you may have thought that trashing Bad Bunny was the most appalling right-wing attack on America's Super Bowl. No, the most appalling right-wing attack, and I'm going to call it attack on the Super Bowl. That that dubious honor belongs to Health and Human Services Secretary RFK Jr., who unfortunately for us described his Super Bowl Sunday snack lineup to Peter Ducey of Fox News. And and this is what it is.

What would you have as a Super Bowl snack? I, you know, I am on a carnivore diet, so I just eat meat and ferments. And I'm very happy with that. So, I'm going to probably have yogurt. And

what? What? He just said, first of all, there's a lot to unpack there. Yo, he's just going to have yogurt. Yogurt at the Super Bowl. I also had yogurt at my Super Bowl party, except it was mixed with um onion dip and sour cream and I put potato chips in it. Or I mixed it with blue cheese and sour cream and I dipped my buffalo wings in it. What's more disgusting than creaky ass Robert F. Kennedy Jr. eating a bowl of yogurt at the Super Bowl?

First of all, Alex, I never uh use ferment to apply to a delicacy. So now, you know, um it's just not something you're ever going to hear me uh do. And the second thing I have to say is like I'm out here in LA, uh transplanted New Yorker, you know, very much miss my hometown. And you know, to me, like I I'm trying to get my head around the kind of, you know, wellness maha universe.

Um to me, I thought it was like uh I don't know, kombucha or like the the supplements aisle where I don't know what it is that I'm looking at. the powders at like arowan or something

peptides. I didn't realize it was like you know meats that you know you you you I don't know how I I can't imagine how he prepares his meats. I made chicken wings last night, Alex. Uh I always do chicken wings two ways. Uh so teriyak and buffalo. I mean

um Sure. and this kind of like un you know pasteurized like disgusting. Um I'm I'm just trying to picture like the the spread.

It's definitely chicken on the raw side. I'm thinking he wants his meat largely undercooked. Right.

Exactly. And fermentss. Nobody calls them that. Like you can have kimchi, fine. You can have sauerkraut. You can even have kombucha. High sugar content. But to go around classifying suggesting to the American public on Fox News, no less, that you consume only meat and fermentss is a betrayal of this republic. Can you imagine if OB Barack Obama had said I remember when Barack Obama was found to have eaten five almonds and it was like a national crisis? Like who the is this guy only eating five almonds? He's not a real man. He sucks. What's wrong with him? He's like a he's he's too tightly wound. Something's something's wrong with his mental attitude. Robert F. Kenn like he's eating fermentss and a bowl of yogurt.

If I ever see someone next to me at a Super Super Bowl party eating a bowl of yogurt after I finish puking into the trash can, I'll leave. I mean, it is one of those weeks where, you know, when you wrap up the discussion this way, Alex, you're like, "All right, we got like a 80-year-old uh narcissist building a ballroom to himself at a time of a cost of living crisis, running interference over his presence in like the Epstein files, uh, and his connectivity to potentially like a child sex trafficker and a health secretary.

giving our kids measles and, you know, recommending uh or boasting about his, you know, Super Bowl diet of fermented meats. And I I I if we can't win a debate, like if if we we Democrats and everybody else that doesn't like this can't somehow figure out how to craft political arguments that, you know, are for chicken wings at the Super Bowl and Alex Wagner's dip and no ballrooms and, you know, bad bunnies holding pedophiles accountable and Bad Bunny, you know, crushes and like we we have like we're on we're standing on the right terrain here in this country. Like we just have to like beckon people over here with a message that works. And I don't know whether it's John Oaf or anybody else, but uh someone's going to put this thing together for us.

My ferment is beer and I think a lot of other people out there like it too. It's quite a good ferment. Yeah,

Ben Rhodess. We're going to leave it there, my friend. Uh I'm sorry to leave everybody with a visual of Robert F. Kennedy eating a bowl of faj or fie or whatever you call it, but sometimes weeks are like that. Uh, and I apologize to everybody.

Do you think he blends it? Do you think he puts the meat in the ferment? I mean, that would almost be like a Middle Eastern delicacy, like a shish kebab and yogurt, but I don't think so.

But something tells me it would not be as tasty as the Middle Eastern preparations.

There's nothing that's happening in RFK Jr.'s kitchen that's tasty. I think we can say that quite definitively.

Oh god. Uh, John, John and Tommy and Dan are going to be back with Australian accents later this week. And now I'm going to close out the show in my worst Australian accent. Here we go. If this doesn't work, you can fix it in post. That's our show for today. John, John, Tommy, and Dan will be back in your feeds on Friday, live from Melbourne. Given the time change, you should expect that show in your feed a little later than usual. Until then, they'll be kissing eels and hanging out with Crocs. See you soon. Thanks everyone. and good eye.

Oh, wow. Well said.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Trump’s Epstein Problem Just Got Worse"?

Alex Lagner (Host), Ben Rhodes (Guest).

What is "Trump’s Epstein Problem Just Got Worse" about?

The main topic addresses the controversial activities surrounding Donald Trump's "Freedom 250" initiative, which appears to be a public-private partnership designed to profit from America's 250th anniversary through extravagant events, including a UFC fight at the White House and a monumental arch in Washington, D.C. The initiative has drawn scrutiny for its funding sources, reliance on taxpayer…

What is mentioned in this Pod Save America episode?

17 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Donald Trump, Epstein file, Ben Rhodes, Alex Lagner, Gileain Maxwell, America 250. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Trump’s Epstein Problem Just Got Worse"?

The episode runs 1 h 10 min; the transcript is about 13,429 words in 140 timestamped sections.

More from Pod Save America

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 11, 2026.