Transcript

Moon Trees | Radiolab Podcast

From Radiolab · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 35 min · 5,199 words · 115 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Moon Trees | Radiolab Podcast", an episode of Radiolab published January 10, 2026 (35 min, about 5,199 words). It mentions 8 people, works and ideas, including Moon Trees, Smokey Rousa, Ziggy Stardust, Stevie Nicks, Apollo 14.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Ziggy Stardust, Stevie Nicks
  2. – 10:00: Apollo 14
  3. – 25:00: Moon Trees
  4. – 35:00: Moon Trees, Transom

Notable quotes from "Moon Trees | Radiolab Podcast"

  • Oh, the energy and vibe was amazing. I dressed as Ziggy Stardust with full makeup and a sparkly pink shirt and silver pants and boots.
    about Ziggy Stardust · at
  • And one day NASA tells him he's going to the moon. Apollo 14. And his job, he's going to be the pilot. Whoa. He's flying the the spaceship.
    about Apollo 14 · at
  • Of years to reach their full height. So to continue the experiment NASA planted the baby moon trees all over the country. There was a moon tree planted at the White House, at state capitals, at NASA centers, at a governor's.
    about Moon Trees · at
  • About Alice. It's called 13 questions I'll never get to ask Alice Wong and you can go check it out at transom.org.
    about Transom · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Smokey Rousa — Person · 3 mentions
  • Stevie Nicks — Person · 1 mention · first at
    In fact, I am seeing Stevie Nicks in October and my witchy powers will be in full display.

Companies & orgs

Concepts & topics

Full transcript with timestamps

Oh, wait. You're listen. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radio Lab.

Radio Lab from WNY. Happy New Year. This past year, we lost a great one. Alice Wong, the renowned disability activist, MacArthur Award winner and writer and podcaster, and so many other things, including, we all feel lucky to say, friend of Radio Lab. You may remember her from an episode we did in the fall called Voice. Alice brought us a very rad and real piece about how losing her speaking voice changed how she responded to the world and how the world responded to her. I have observed people do talk over me because I guess they don't recognize the sounds I am making as a voice. And as you can guess, I see them silently plan their destruction.

And so to kick off the new year, we all wanted to pay some small tribute to Alice. And as we were trying to figure out how to do that, I went back and listened to the last conversation we ever had, which was just 2 months before she died. And I felt guided by this one tiny moment.

To celebrate the recovery from my bed rest, I saw Lady Gaga in summer when she was in San Francisco.

Oh, awesome. What was that like? Oh, the energy and vibe was amazing. I dressed as Ziggy Stardust with full makeup and a sparkly pink shirt and silver pants and boots. I was really feeling myself and am pursuing pleasure as much as I can while I can.

Alice was so serious about what she was doing. She went to bat for disabled folks. She called out abbleism. She did not mince words. But she was also so full of joy.

In fact, I am seeing Stevie Nicks in October and my witchy powers will be in full display. My text chain with her is full of really bad puns, memes of her mocking my children, and fbombs. So many fbombs. Women curse like a sailor. And one thing that her Ziggy Stardust comment made me realize that maybe not everyone knew about her is that she was really passionately in to space. In a fake obituary that she wrote for herself, she said that she lived to the age of 96 and spent the last few decades of her life living on the moon.

She said she lived in a zeroravity capsule as a member of quote crypts in space, a group of scientists, creators, and explorers. Now, when I look up at the moon, I picture Alice is up there in lower gravity experiencing less pain. In that same obituary, she also imagined that we all organized a quote multi-dimensional interstellar memorial on her behalf. So, as I wait for aliens to get back to me regarding logistical details, I figured as a little start, we could play an episode about this place she dreamed of living, the moon.

funnily enough, it is also a story that ends up being about access and about how the moon itself is more accessible to most of us here on Earth than we realize. Uh, it is an episode of Terrestrials. Alice was actually an adviser of terrestrials. She was always rooting for weird work and helped us make pieces that treated disability with care. So, here we go. Thank you, Alice. We miss you. Please accept this humble lunar offering as a small token of our immense gratitude. Three, two, one. Imagine that you're teeny, teeny tiny and you have this hard shell, but inside that hard shell is everything you need to start growing to 200 ft tall. And you are all set to be an Earthling until somebody launches you, hurls you toward the moon. And you travel 250,000 miles, the farthest that any living thing has ever been. You see the far side of the moon where all there is is stars.

And then you start falling back, back, back toward the earth at faster speeds where nobody is sure if you'll survive. But when you hit the soil, you feel the warm sun and you unfurl from your shell. You have become a moon tree.

A moon tree. Yes. All right. Now is the part where I make you sing the theme song with me.

Terrestrial. Terrestrials. We are not the worst. We are the bestials. Best. Yes, you got it. Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness waiting right here on planet Earth. I am your host, Lulu Miller, joined as always by my song bud.

Did you see the moon? And today we are joined by one of our favorite storytellers, one of the people who fact checks our terrestrials episodes to make sure everything we're saying is true. Uh, can you please introduce yourself?

Hello, I'm Natalie Middleton. So, it's funny that you are the person on our team who who kind of certifies truth because you are bringing us a story that sounds like science fiction, like sci-fi. Yeah. Where do we start? This whole story begins all thanks to a firefighter called Stew Smokeoky Rousa.

Ooh, Smokey is his middle name. That's his nickname. Smokey. Okay. Smokey the firefighter.

Originally born in Colorado in 1933. Red head, freckles, tall, kind of lanky prankster. He was whips smart, really good at math, and he absolutely loved trees. And after high school, he got a job with the Forest Service trying to fight this fungus called blister rust, which is a fungus that is really hard for trees to survive. So, you're saying he loved them so much his actual job was to protect them from getting sick?

Yeah. And so, every summer after that, he would go and fight fires. What he became is called a smoke jumper.

A smoke jumper? That sounds a little scary. It's pretty dangerous. So, they're jumping out of planes with a parachute basically into the fire.

Wow. Are they wearing like firemen gear like the jacket? And it's actually kind of similar to like an astronaut suit. H. And at some point as he's floating through space, he wonders what it would be like to float through space. Higher space, outer space. So, first he learns how to fly a plane. Yes. Then he trains and becomes an astronaut.

He just kind of went up higher in the sky. Okay. And one day NASA tells him he's going to the moon. Apollo 14. And his job, he's going to be the pilot. Whoa. He's flying the the the the spaceship.

Yes. Wow. Go Smokey. It's a big job. So, the year is 1971. The spacecraft is all loaded up with gear and fuel, and each astronaut gets to bring with them one little bag. It's not big. It's like almost like a pocket size, and it's made of a special type of glass that won't melt until it's hotter than over 1,000° F. Wa. That's like a furnace. Very fireproof. And what can they put in there? Is it like their their license and toothbrush?

Yes. So, astronauts actually just get to bring whatever is meaningful to them. A What would you bring?

Oh, so I have a a daughter that's two. She drew a train and Yeah, I would probably bring that.

What did Smokey bring? So out of everything that he could have thought to take on Earth, he chose to take tree seeds. Back to his love of trees, he can't shake it.

Yeah. He brought a big handful. Five types of seeds. Sweet gum, leafy trees from the east coast of the US. Loblly pine. They're from the south.

Loblly lobly lobly. That's fun to say. We have the redwood tree. Oh, those big giants on the west coast that are too big to even hug. Then we have the sycamore. Super tall leafy ones. Lots of them in the middle of the country.

The last one is the Douglas fur. It's like a Christmas trees are often Douglas furs, right?

Yes. They chose trees that could be grown all across the whole entire country. Yeah. And they put them in this aluminum metal canister. Very small. It fits in the palm of your hand. So 500 of these seeds fit in the palm of Smokeoky's hand.

Wow. And so the day of the launch, he puts this canister of seeds in his little white fireproof bag, waves to the masses, and steps on to the spacecraft. From a scientific standpoint, people just didn't know what would happen to a plant or a seed if you took it up into deep space.

Had no one ever taken one up? No. So, this was the first time. Huh. And he had a scientific question. What would happen if we brought another living thing up into space with us that's different than us?

Would it survive? Yeah. Would it survive? Would it grow differently? Would it look like a totally different kind of tree? Because as Natalie explained, they knew that space affected humans.

When you're out in space, you're exposed to stronger radiation from the sun and galactic cosmic rays. And this radiation can wiggle its way into your DNA, the blueprint that tells your body how to grow and potentially warp things. Plus, the lowered gravity can weaken your bones and muscles. And oddly, because of something about how time works in space, you age just a tiny bit slower,

which I still don't really understand. But I got to keep moving on with the story. And so Smokey and some of his fellow tree lovers at the Forest Service wondered, would space have an effect on the cells and DNA inside trees? Did he have any hypothesis on how it space travel might affect growth of these trees?

I I I looked I there's nothing that indicates what he thought except that he thought it was a cool idea.

Okay. Well, lucky for you, Natalie, I put the question to a bunch of children. Oh, and would you like to hear some of their answers?

Yes, I would. Maybe it would have to grow not with any water. It would probably have different needs instead of like water. Maybe something else, different chemicals helping it grow.

Maybe it would have to be growing on no gravity. So, how would that make the tree look different? So has an arch and then turn to spirals.

Trying to go upwards a little higher because of just like the generally lower gravity on the moon.

Yeah. And there's also going to be berries, golden berries, brindberry. A brineberry.

Maybe like blue leaves. Um and white shrunk. Ooh. And it looks like a palm tree. But

it looks like a what tree? A palm tree. Oh, a pal. Oh, it's like a palm tree, but like white and gray. But inside of the coconuts is um is a piece from the moon.

Ooh. Is it hard or soft inside? Tastes like yogurt. And probably have a little metal in it. Then at the end of them, there were like little moon like half crescent and full crescent and stuff like that. And if you touch one, you'll start to feel like tingly in your hand. And if you give one to your animal, your animal will get this little moon shape on its forehead and then they'll be able to like fly and stuff.

Oh my god, Lulu, these are so I don't I just put the question out. Isn't this great?

It just catches imagination, doesn't it? It's so fitting, Lulu, because it's really thanks to a third grader that we even know about this story. Wait, what? Yeah,

that story. Let's blast off after the short break. 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Blastoff. Goodbye Smokey. Goodbye. What are the other names of the other astronauts?

Edgar Mitchell and Alan Shepard. Goodbye Ed. Goodbye Alan. Goodbye fireproof bag full of seeds. The fuel ignites and on the outside the spacecraft looks pretty slow, but on the inside everything is rattling. The metal rivets are groaning and the seeds in the canister are bumping into each other. There's all this pressure from gravity trying to pull the spacecraft down. And then in one instant, it suffers ties from Earth. And suddenly the seeds and the astronauts are floating in zero G. And Smokey aligns his measurements and lurches the spacecraft toward the moon.

Stuart, how's your peanut butter? Not enjoying any peanut butter. This is audio from the actual space flight.

Incredible. God, this is really a wild place up here. For 4 days, they soar through space as that little moon in the sky grows bigger and bigger and bigger.

They seem so close. It's like you just reach out and touch it until they are right next to it. Stu, we just got word that uh your family's listening to you and they're outside looking up at that great big moon. I'm sure we'd all like to be up there with you. Over.

And then Stu aka Smokey. Yeah, I wish you could be. Releases Allan and Ed from the spacecraft to go land on the moon.

Nothing like being up to your armpits in lunar dust. They get to go walk on the moon.

Yes. Um, lucky Ellen. Lucky Ed. Yeah. And not only do they get to frolic around in moon dust, Allan brought a makeshift golf club and golf balls to hit. Because of the gravity, you barely have to tap it and it just flies

miles and miles and miles. I'm just picturing like it's like Alan and Ed playing on the moon, bouncing, feeling, doing what they do, and Smokey doesn't get to go. Yeah. Well, that's what I thought, but actually for every moon mission where people land on the moon, there's one astronaut that stays in orbit around the moon. And it's a really important job because that's

important, but it sounds less fun. Okay, but you'll see why I say that. So, the command module. So, that's what Smokey is in.

Steu Russo aboard Kittyhawk. Okay, he's going to continue to orbit around it. eighth revolution of the moon.

He's going to take pictures. He's going to do all these science experiments while he's

15th revolution of the moon. Orbiting and orbiting and orbiting the 22nd lunar revolution 23. Roose is still apparently asleep.

I think he orbits 32nd revolution 34th 34 times the moon. The moon. Wow. And what happens when you're orbiting the moon is that you end up going into the moon's shadow. now passing over the back side of the moon

which is called the far side of the moon. And when you do that, everything gets really dark. You can't see the sun. It's cold. The temperature drops. Things get like really clammy

and then you also lose contact with everyone on Earth. We have had loss of signal with the command module Kittyhawk

and everyone on the moon. Literally, it's Stew Smoky Rousa and these seeds in his pocket

are the only living things in that corner of the world. Yeah. Okay, Natalie, you're not selling me. I'm so You're just like, you are the most alone person of the entire living human race. You're cold, but get this, you're also clammy and it's pitch dark

and the other guys are like having fun bouncing playing golf on the moon. So, yes, I left out the best part. So when you're going around, what happens is you suddenly see just this sheet of stars

that just goes on forever and ever and ever. The astronauts that have experienced that have just like plunged into that side of space that no one ever gets to see. But he can't admire the infinite void forever because he's starting to run out of gas. So he brushes by the moon, picks up Allen and Ed.

Thanks, bro. Lurches the spacecraft back toward Earth. We'll see you on the other side. Over.

Then starts dive bombing toward it, traveling at over 16,000 mph until they splash down in the Pacific Ocean under these three huge orange and white parachutes.

Huh. So the seeds made it back to Earth. They traveled so far and then during the decontamination process, the cleaning process, there was a an extreme change in pressure and the bag of seeds explodes.

Oh no. So the seeds just exploded all over the place and everybody thought that they had killed them. But the show must go on. The science must go on. So they sent them to Forest Service green houses where they planted all the seeds and soil. the sycamore seeds which looked like tiny green pistachio nuts and the Douglas furs which looked like scales plucked from a pine cone and the sweet gums and lobly pines and the mighty redwood which all begins in a tiny package that looks a little like a flattened corn kernel. And they watered them and let the sun shine its warm rays.

And then they waited and they waited and almost all of them came up. Wa. And so that's how many little saplings are growing.

The estimate is 420 to 450. Of the 500? Yeah. And are they seeing any difference in that growth? I I think about our kids and all the hypotheses and the spiral arms and the low gravity and the crescent like was there were they seeing any difference at first?

Actually there was no difference at first. But trees famously long livingiving take a long time to grow sometimes hundreds of years to reach their full height. So to continue the experiment NASA planted the baby moon trees all over the country. There was a moon tree planted at the White House,

at state capitals, at NASA centers, at a governor's mansion, a military fort, but then they also got planted in front of a junior high at a Girl Scout camp right outside of a cemetery.

So just all of these places all over with regular people. Yeah. Did anyone like get one in their yard?

Yes. People actually did. No, just like Diane in in Nebraska or whatever. Yes, there there are moon trees at private residences.

How cool. Yeah. The funny thing is though, so when they would do these ceremonies, sometimes they would put a plaque in,

but other times they would just have the ceremony and then go along their merry way. And over time, people started to forget that these were moon trees. Time presses on. The Berlin Wall falls and the Mount St. Helens volcano erupts and the trees keep growing, holding their secret inside. And Smoky Rousa dies and you are born and the moon keeps shining and the experiment is mostly forgotten until one day a little girl in Indiana notices something funny at her Girl Scout camp. A sycamore tree with a little plaque.

Yeah, it just says like Moon Tree 1976. Huh. Nobody remembers even at the Girl Scout camp like what this was. So she tells her third grade class teacher, Miss Gobble about it. Miss Gobble emails NASA. Just says, "Hey NASA, dear NASA, question."

Yes. Yes. So the email finds its way to Dr. Dave Williams, who is a planetary scientist at NASA. And he doesn't know.

Oh. And he told me that nobody remembered. Wow. And that there was no official record of where the trees had been planted. So Dave decides NASA should go on a recovery mission of sorts and he starts a website that basically says if you have a moon tree or you know of a moon tree let me know.

Wow. And he started getting these emails from people who were like hey there's a moon tree in my plaza in my town. There's a moon tree in front of the hospital where I went. Slowly he's collected locations of these moon trees. Um

as people have kind of rediscovered them in their own backyards and made kind of like a map.

He didn't make a map. I made a map. You made a map? Yeah. It's pretty cool. Wait, really?

Yeah. Cool. In my map, you can spin the Earth and then you can like click on your to see what moon tree is close to you. And we have linked this on our website and right here in the episode description. Just click on Natalie's Moon Tree Map. Here we go.

And Natalie for about 63 miles. Continue straight. We're going to go find our moon tree now.

Realized there was one not too far from her in California in a town by the sea called San Louis Abyspo. Cool little surfing town. I'm walking down some stairs and I see a little creek and it took me a while to find it. Holy cow, I found it. The plaque was very small. Like I could see how people kind of just walk right by. And I'm going to try to hug it. See if I can get my hands around it. Oh my gosh. Not even not even halfway around. And it smells so good. And when I saw it, it was just it I actually got kind of emotional. Um Huh.

Like I I went up to its trunk and I like touched its bark and I started to cry.

Why? Um space exploration is one of those things where not that many people get to experience it. M

um and yet it's something that humans have wondered about for millennia. Ever since we could wonder, we were looking at the stars.

Mhm. And the moon. So to be able to touch a living thing that has actually traveled all the way to the moon and back and survived. It's a deep thing. So for you the thing is like is it almost like access? It's like almost getting to touch the moon. It's poignant. I don't know. I don't know a more of a kitty word for that. It's like um Well, how would you describe poignant for someone who doesn't know what it means?

I would say it's like a joyful kind of ache. We usually tend to think of trees as rooted and so to realize that these are travelers

and that they've traveled so much farther than I will ever travel. Yeah. And then I looked up and it just it has redwood trees have these huge kind of feathered branches that are just so beautiful. And there were like little threads of spider silk that were like catching the sun. and little rainbows of spider silk. There was like a squirrel jumping around up there. There were birds.

Um I kind of went and sat on a bench nearby and there was this whole construction crew that was on lunch break and they all went and sat under the leaves of this moon tree. And I'm pretty sure they had no idea that it had been to the moon. I want to know the truth tangled in your roots. The things you've been through that make you you. I want to know the truth tangled in your roots. Relief. Every tree holds a history. Tangled in the room. Did you flow through the shadows alone? Surrounded by a silence that no one else knew. Tangled in the room. Were you lost in the ocean of stars where it all fades the dark and the air goes cold in the room? Did you go to the dark side of the moon? Would you talk about the feeling? Talk about the in the room. Are you back down on the ground now? Just waiting around now.

I'm in a tune and waiting to bloom. Tangled in your roots. The things you've been through that make you you. I want to know the truth. Tangled in your roots. Every leaf, every tree holds a history. Tangled in the roof. Spinning towards the star. Your branches spin towards the stars. Spirals of leaves defy gravity. Spinning towards the stars. Yeah. This journey will travel on. This spindle of secrets sprouts from a sea. I want to know the truth. Tangled in your roots. The things you've been through that make you you. I want to know the truth. Tangled in your roots.

Relief. Every tree holds a history. Tangled in the roots. Alan Ginsky. And there's nothing else cool about to happen but what's that?

Excuse me. I have a question. Me two. Me three. Me four. The badgers. Listeners with badgering questions for the expert. Are you ready? Yes.

Hi, I'm Alex Winter, also known as Bill from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

Most triumphant. My question is, is it true that time moves differently in space? Like if I had a twin and he went to space, would we be different ages?

Oh, yeah. Earth ages faster. So, oh, so if you went to space, you'd be younger. So Scott Kelly and his brother Mark Kelly are identical twin astronauts that did a science experiment. Basically Scott went up and stayed for almost a year in space. Wo.

And because of something known as the twin paradox, time passed more slowly for Scott up in space than for his brother Mark here on Earth. And what that means is that Scott returned to Earth younger than his brother Mark. How much younger?

8.6 milliseconds younger. I don't understand, but I like it. Hi, I'm Tommy. I'm 11 years old. And my question is, would NASA ever plant seeds in space?

They did. They did. Uh-huh. So, they were called like the veggie experiments. Um,

okay. In recent years, astronauts took vegetable seeds up to the International Space Station

to see if they could grow them in hopes of like if and when we kind of push our way out to Mars, the astronauts are going to have to grow their food, like they're not going to be able to pack all the food they need,

right? Of course. So Scott Kelly, the twin, part of what he was doing in space for that whole year was trying to grow plants. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But it's hard because watering them. So when you water plants in space, the water beads up in microgravity and it makes it really hard for it to reach the roots. And so you have to sort of like force it into the soil. And NASA also was making him wear gloves so that he wouldn't accidentally get a mold or something from the soil. But the thing was is that with the gloves on, he couldn't tell if the flowers were getting enough water or too much water.

Oh, like he couldn't feel the soil kind of. Yeah. So finally he um he broke the rules

and he took off the gloves. He took his gloves off. Oh, so he could feel the soil.

Yeah. And a little while later, check this out. Oh my gosh. You are showing me a picture of these gorgeous orange flowers. Are these the Are these Did these bloom out in space?

Yeah, these are called Zenyas and they bloomed in space. Twinkle, twinkle, little

Hi, my name is Theo and I'm 9 years old. Does NASA have plans to keep studying moon trees?

So, the Aremis mission recently took seeds again to the moon. So, Moon Trees part two.

Yeah, Moon Trees part two. Okay. And I have one last question. By this point, have they located all of Smokeoky's original, you know, 450 moon trees?

No, there's just over a hundred that they know the locations of now. Oh, so most of them are still missing.

Most of them are still out there growing and nobody knows that they went to the moon. But you can look for them. Look for their little plaques and if you find one, drop an email to natalienataliemittleton.org so that she can add its location to her map and more people can also touch the moon via tree. That'll do it for today. Thank you for listening and thank you again, Alice Wong, for lending your voice to this program and to this world. I just published a longer remembrance about Alice. It's called 13 questions I'll never get to ask Alice Wong and you can go check it out at transom.org.

And if you just want more Alice, she has left behind many books and podcasts and essays and even a film. And you can find them all at disabilityvisibility.com. And I figure I'd end today with Alice's own words, uh, the way she ended her own imaginary obituary. She wrote, "Instead of flowers, donations can be made to your local animal shelter, food bank, library, or mutual aid collective. Enjoy all of Alice's good and may you create some good as well." Hi, I'm Natalia and I'm from Brooklyn. And here are the staff credits. Radio Lab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Lativ Noser. Saurin Wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah Sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is Pat Walters. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Aria Paz Gutierrez, Sindu Yan Sambundan, Matt Kilty, Mona Madgaler, Annie Mchuan, Alex Nissan, Sar Kari, Anisa Vita, Arian

Wack, Molly Webster, and Jessica Young with help from Abreo Rand. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Kger, Anna Pujo Mazini, and Natalie Middleton. Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid. Leadership support from Radio Lab science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Tenantto Foundation. Foundational support from Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Islam foundation.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Moon Trees | Radiolab Podcast"?

In order: 0:00 Ziggy Stardust, Stevie Nicks; 5:00 Apollo 14; 20:00 Moon Trees; 30:00 Moon Trees, Transom.

What is mentioned in this Radiolab episode?

8 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Moon Trees, Smokey Rousa, Ziggy Stardust, Stevie Nicks, Apollo 14, Transom. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Moon Trees | Radiolab Podcast"?

The episode runs 35 min; the transcript is about 5,199 words in 115 timestamped sections.

More from Radiolab

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 10, 2026.