“My Parents Were Pedophiles & Forced Me Into Being With Other Pedophiles”- A Day With Lisa Plumb

What this episode is about

The discussion centers around the harrowing experiences of staff at Patton State Psychiatric Hospital, where employees face daily threats of violence from patients who have committed serious crimes. Feelings of fear and anxiety are prevalent, as the staff navigate their roles in a high-risk environment where their safety is constantly at stake, using tools like alarms and whistles to alert authorities in emergencies.

Key takeaways

• Therapy irony: The therapist contemplating violence against a patient is a scary plot twist.
• Patton Psych Hospital: Where the job description reads less 'caregiver' and more 'survivor.'
• Don's delusion: Promises parental controls but hoards hair like a creepy collector.
• Family nudist camps: Where 'wardrobe malfunction' transforms into a questionable parenting strategy.
• Photo center mishap: Developing film, exposing crimes, and redefining 'caught on camera.'

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Donald Gordon, Donald Lee Gordon, Parental controls, Patton State Hospital
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Implicit memory, inner child work, Parental alienation syndrome
3. 20:00 – 30:00: COG (creepy outside guys), Fuller Brush, Nadia Raymond, Raymond McNite
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Murdoch, Death in the Family, Nadia Raymond, Protective factor, ACE study
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Brook Shields, Grooming, Pretty Baby, change.org
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Donald Lee Gordon, Orange County detectives, photomat, Santa Ana, California
7. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Sheriff, 12 steps, abuse recovery group, anger turned inwards is depression
8. 1:10:00 – 1:20:00: Megan's Law, vibrator, Buddhist monks, daddy son magazine
9. 1:20:00 – 1:25:19: Apple Valley, consent, emotional development, inner child work

Notable quotes from "“My Parents Were Pedophiles & Forced Me Into Being With Other Pedophiles”- A Day With Lisa Plumb"

• Happens now and again. Violence is part of the daily life. One employee at Patton State Hospital, they have 1,300 patients. She starts feeling uncomfortable because one of the…

  about Patton State Hospital · at 1:33

• He Don Gordon claims, quote, Everybody does it. Also, some of them are promiscuous and they were the ones that came after me. Side note, his own children were his victims as well. The.

  about Donald Lee Gordon · at 2:18

• They just need to let him free because when he gets out of the hospital, he will be putting parental controls on his computer. He will not be going anywhere where the kids are going. He promises.

  about Parental controls · at 3:18

• Happened and then I had more memory and basically to survive that I had to do some inner child work. But what happened is he threatened if I told that he would insinuate that…

  about inner child work · at 17:01

• So Raymond Mcnite one morning I was going to go to school. My mom was actually going to take me. but this guy knocks on the door and I go and open it and he's just Hey. You know,.

  about Nadia Raymond · at 29:15

• Jodie, of course, looking back now, I see it like she was like brilliant in her grooming. But I come out looking at this 6'2 tall, skinny blonde woman, blue eyes, and she has one eye that looks the other way.

  about Grooming · at 39:29

• With him. One of the things that he liked to do was watch a movie called Pretty Baby with me. I listened to that part of your interview and I think the way you were describing…

  about Pretty Baby · at 44:48

• Knew I was following her, but I don't know the streets. I couldn't keep up with her. But I had heard about Megan's Law, so I asked my friend to go with me.

  about Megan's Law · at 1:01:38

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Jodie — Person · 24 mentions
• Jod — Person · 22 mentions
• Jody — Person · 18 mentions
• Donald Lee Gordon — Person · 4 mentions · first at 2:18
• Nadia Raymond — Person · 4 mentions · first at 29:15
• Larry King — Person · 4 mentions
• Donald Gordon — Person · 3 mentions · first at 2:05
  Makeshift weapon. These are the types of patients that are held at Patton State Hospital, which is exactly where Donald Gordon is sent. He's going to be there for at least two…
• Brook Shields — Person · 3 mentions · first at 45:12
  Right. So, Brook Shields, the very famous Broo Shields was 11 or 12 at the time and I'll just say she was not a developed girl at that age. She looked like a child. I'll just be explicit. No.
• Lisa Plum — Person · 1 mention · first at 6:03
  Also somewhere where Donald Gordon would take Lisa. One of Don Gordon's victims will be Lisa Plum, whom he starts abusing when she was just 11 years old.
• Larry Feldman — Person · 1 mention · first at 7:23
  My mom had a boyfriend, Larry Feldman, that decided we should all go to Glenn Eden.
• Raymond McNite — Person · 1 mention · first at 29:15
  So Raymond Mcnite one morning I was going to go to school. My mom was actually going to take me. but this guy knocks on the door and I go and open it and he's just Hey. You know,.
• Jason Clark — Person · 1 mention · first at 33:13
  Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark, Murdoch, Death in the Family is the new Hulu original series that explores the unraveling of a southern dynasty through a deadly boat crash, double homicide, and a massive.
• Susan Sandon — Person · 1 mention · first at 45:34
  Okay. But in the movie, she is the daughter of Susan Sandon, who is a to at a brothel, I guess, in New Orleans. And everyone's just happy and everyone just loves their job, right? But Brook Shields is reaching the ripe age of 12,.
• Keradines — Person · 1 mention · first at 47:10
  About how they're going to keep selling her as a virgin for a while cuz they can. and one of the Keradines is like becomes her husband and he slaps her and you know and…
• Jodie Gordon — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:01:56
  So I went there. I said, Jod Jones, Jodie Gordon. What? Because they got married after they got busted for me.
• Judith Herman — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:08:21
  Yeah. And Judith Herman wrote trauma and recovery and she talks about it and I just listened to Gabbor Mate talk about it too or somebody else. But one reason is like you are now in charge.
• Glenn Low — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:13:00
  Done. But then she disappears off Megan's law again. And another perpetrator, another case, Glenn Low, that in my teenage years I also that was a situation was on Megan's law.…
• Clara — Person · 1 mention
• Gavin de Becker — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Pretty Baby — Book · 3 mentions · first at 44:53
• The Gift of Fear — Book · 1 mention · first at 40:10
  Like this creepy guy, you know. but basically she's just talking, which is a perpetrator technique. The Gift of Fear by Gavin Debecker is a really good book to read to learn…
• Trauma and Recovery — Book · 1 mention · first at 1:08:21
  Yeah. And Judith Herman wrote trauma and recovery and she talks about it and I just listened to Gabbor Mate talk about it too or somebody else. But one reason is like you are now in charge.

Companies & orgs

• website — Company · 2 mentions · first at 4:21
  Addresses in their very bizarre FAQ which is a frequently asked questions portion of their website. They answer the question, Are children forced to be nude? The word forced is…
• Fuller Brush — Company · 2 mentions · first at 29:31
  It and he's just Hey. big old smile. And he was carrying fuller brush stuff. Do you know what that is?
• Sheriff — Company · 2 mentions · first at 1:01:51
  And at the time, Megan's Law did not give address, only zip code. And you had to go to the sheriff's.
• change.org — Company · 1 mention · first at 48:41
  One of the ways I know you have a change.org petition to ban Pretty Baby.
• photomat — Company · 1 mention · first at 54:19
  Interview me. Don and Jod had gotten busted. At the time they had what's called photomat.
• Orange County detectives — Company · 1 mention · first at 56:33
  Yeah. So, when I was first put in the shelter home like the next day and was interviewed by Orange County detectives, one of the detectives somehow it's just me and him in a…
• Victorville Police Department — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:05:50
  To do that as a registered offender. But I also ran into her in Walmart. And so anyway, the Victorville Police Department said, Okay, we're going to go and check on her. And I…
• NAMBLA — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:16:46
  Somebody said, Don't say Nambla, but Nambla, North American Manboy Love Association.
• North American Manboy Love Association — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:16:48
  Somebody said, Don't say Nambla, but Nambla, North American Manboy Love Association.

Products & tech

• vibrator — Product · 2 mentions · first at 1:18:08
  Well going in with my mom and Larry. And then the end, the end was I had a vibrator.
• projector — Product · 1 mention · first at 49:17
  Over and over just like here come sit down. And at the time he had a projector. It started with me sitting next to him here and Jody there. And then he would touch us. Even on a camping trip we went on. He brought it.
• methamphetamines — Product · 1 mention · first at 1:06:56
  Out of desperation. I became clean and sober cuz I spent my whole childhood drinking, smoking, methamphetamines and stuff. And at 18, I got clean. But then I started to crave…
• daddy son magazine — Product · 1 mention · first at 1:17:01
  Going strong and very retaliatory, but there was that material in the apartment and also like a daddy son magazine or I looked at it and it's all about weird fantasies of Yeah. File material.

Concepts & topics

• Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) — Concept · 6 mentions
• Megan's Law — Concept · 5 mentions · first at 1:01:41
• Grooming — Concept · 4 mentions · first at 39:34
• inner child work — Concept · 3 mentions · first at 17:06
• Parental controls — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 3:21
• Protective factor — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 32:54
  Know now looking back what he what we would say in the therapeutic world is he was a protective factor.
• Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) — Concept · 2 mentions
• three strikes — Concept · 2 mentions
• Criminally insane — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:18
  Violent assaults, and yet they're here because they have been found either criminally insane, incompetent to stand trial, or are waiting to stand trial and are being evaluated.…
• Incompetent to stand trial — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:18
  Violent assaults, and yet they're here because they have been found either criminally insane, incompetent to stand trial, or are waiting to stand trial and are being evaluated.…
• Implicit memory — Concept · 1 mention · first at 11:30
  We really don't have picture memory until about the age of five. We have implicit memory. What is that?
• Parental alienation syndrome — Concept · 1 mention · first at 13:33
  Of the dynamic that my father set up and my mom. like my parents participated in what's called parental alienation syndrome. Basically, one parent talking crap about the other…
• COG (creepy outside guys) — Concept · 1 mention · first at 23:28
  I was reading online of someone saying they had a term called COG, creepy outside guys that would try to get into the nudist camps.
• ACE study — Concept · 1 mention · first at 32:58
  Yeah. So, there's a study called the ACE study, adverse childhood experiences, which I don't like the way they asked some of the questions.
• dark web — Concept · 1 mention · first at 45:03
  Way you were describing it initially, I was so convinced it was like a movie off the dark web and it's very much a real movie that you can buy online for $3.99 right now. Right.
• higher law — Concept · 1 mention · first at 48:02
  They are. Yeah. They have a complete explanation why they are living the higher law. Why other people are repressed? They are all pedophiles are philosophers. And he told me too, he said, your mom is crazy.
• victim's rights — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:03:22
  Where I live or that they're going to tell me when he gets out. Like that's supposed to be part of victim's rights now.
• clean and sober — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:06:52
  Depression and all my trauma came out and I started to go to therapy out of desperation. I became clean and sober cuz I spent my whole childhood drinking, smoking…
• 12 steps — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:07:06
  I started to crave again when all the trauma started to come out. And I'm so I started doing 12 steps and then I went to therapy. I got actually got in as abuse recovery group…
• abuse recovery group — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:07:11
  So I started doing 12 steps and then I went to therapy. I got actually got in as abuse recovery group which was very helpful and I realized I wanted to be a therapist but also…
• rewiring your nervous system — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:08:36
  One reason is like you are now in charge of the violent situation and you're you're rewiring your nervous system basically. I guess that's the other reason too. You're you're…
• anger turned inwards is depression — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:09:49
  Yeah. But, I, anger or anger turned inwards is depression.
• thou shalt not kill — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:11:32
  I just lose my mind half the time with the situation but I didn't you know thou shalt not kill right but I did indulge in some fantasies a few times killing her my dad my mom…
• Buddhist monks — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:16:37
  Actually read the eulogy for my dad cuz he couldn't do it. And it was all gay men and Buddhist monks. And but what we found in his apartment was file material.
• honor your mother and father — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:19:04
  And I was trying to be a good Christian. I didn't know what the right thing to do was. and you honor your mother and father. What does that mean?
• narrative non-fiction — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:22:56
  And I did feel validated and you know curious and also in my memoir it's also a narrative non-fiction where I'm incorporating a therapist's voice.
• consent — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:23:34
  But yeah, it's informational, cuz it's really important for people to understand what consent is and that you can't consent when your brain isn't fully developed. You could be…
• emotional development — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:23:43
  Isn't fully developed. You could be an Einstein genius child, but you still can't consent because emotional development and all of that is different from IQ.
• toxic positivity — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:24:51
  Always having something positive to focus on. Not toxic positivity, allowing people to express and heal and get into that rage and feel it all and do what you need to do, but know that you'll come out of it. And keep a visualization.
• fight-flight-freeze-fawn — Concept · 1 mention
• GPS — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

• Patton State Hospital — Place · 2 mentions · first at 1:39
• Apple Valley — Place · 2 mentions · first at 1:01:08
  Then later we move from Riverside and we're living in Apple Valley. The day after we move into Apple Valley, I see her at the grocery store in the grocery store parking lot.
• Victorville — Place · 2 mentions · first at 1:05:50
  To do that as a registered offender. But I also ran into her in Walmart. And so anyway, the Victorville Police Department said, Okay, we're going to go and check on her. And I…
• Glenn Eden Sun Club — Place · 1 mention · first at 6:45
  Glenn Eden Sun Club is a family nudis count, which means everybody gets naked together and it's a resort. There's pools jacuzzi's sauna cafe hiking tennis, camping. When you walk in, you.
• Santa Ana, California — Place · 1 mention · first at 52:58
  Just I looked out open up the little shell window and I'm like memorizing like it's this is in Santa Ana, California, 14th Street, 7th Street.
• Long Beach — Place · 1 mention · first at 1:21:09
  That was the whole story. But we went and saw him there and then in Long Beach he lived and then he came and stayed with us in Apple Valley for a while. And my kids see him as the best grandparent for sure.
• Patton State Psychiatric Hospital — Place · 1 mention

Sponsors

• Murdoch, Death in the Family — Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 33:13
  Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark, Murdoch, Death in the Family is the new Hulu original series that explores the unraveling of a southern dynasty through a deadly boat crash, double homicide, and a massive.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 So, I imagined that I could kill her a couple different ways. I'm no good anyway. I'm screwed up. What do I think I'm doing being a therapist? I'm not a good mom. I'm not a good wife. Let me just kill her and then you can move on. You know, I'll be in prison and bada bing, bada boom.

0:18 There are a few workplaces where most employees feel fear on a daily basis where they could actually die. Not just a I hate my job, I could die or technically bad people and a meteor could strike anywhere at any time, but genuine the second that I clock in for work, my adrenaline starts spiking because you can die at any moment. One employee states ominously, ultimately we're directly in harm's way every single minute. We come to work with the attitude of it's not if I'm going to get hit, but when I'm going to get hit.

0:51 That's the way of life. Which is why when you clock in, you get handed an alarm that you wear on your body that has GPS and sends immediate signals to police when it's activated. You also get a giant whistle to make sure that if something happens, you can make a loud noise to alert someone. This is at Patent State Psychiatric Hospital where the population consists primarily of patients who have been committing crimes, often violent crimes. Some of the patients have committed murder, violent assaults, and yet they're here because they have been found either criminally insane, incompetent to stand trial, or are waiting to stand trial and are being evaluated. One psychiatrist states, "Treating these people is not easy. Violence is part of our lives every day. It's not just a constant thing. It's not like the violence happens now and again. Violence is part of the daily life." One employee at

1:39 Patton State Hospital, they have 1,300 patients. She starts feeling uncomfortable because one of the patients there, it feels like he's tracking her movements. It's like he's observing her closely. Anytime she's at work, she feels like she's being stalked. This is a big deal. She tells her boss about it, and they do nothing. By the next month, that patient punches her in the face, drags her into a room, and stabs her repeatedly with a makeshift weapon. These are the types of patients that are held at Patton State Hospital, which is exactly where Donald Gordon is sent. He's going to be there for at least two plus years. He has on his record over 40 different charges for essay and abuse against a minor. But he says there's a reason for all of this.

2:18 He Don Gordon claims, quote, "Everybody does it." Also, some of them are promiscuous and they were the ones that came after me. Side note, his own children were his victims as well. The neurosychologist in charge of evaluating Don Gordon states, "His marriages weren't doing well. He kept trying to stop himself. He was thinking about stopping himself. He knows that it was illegal, that he could get into a lot of trouble, but the more he did, the more um the more chances that he would get, but he said he said he uh made the commitment to himself to stop it. But he just couldn't stop. He just didn't stop. He said the more he did it, the more sexually stimulated and aroused he got. That his sex drive actually increased, but to his surprise, he wasn't getting satisfied.

3:03 He was getting more stimulated by it. He became obsessed with wanting more and more. He tells the psychologist the main reason that he went after little girls is because quote it made him feel big, powerful, and good, but also they seduced him. But it's going to be okay. They just need to let him free because when he gets out of the hospital, he will be putting parental controls on his computer. He will not be going anywhere where the kids are going. He promises. The police have alarmingly found locks of girls hair in a plastic baggie at his house. And the only reason he was even caught again was because he went to a photo development center where you can turn in film for film cameras. He turned a roll in that had seam on there. And yet because he argues he's going to have parental controls on his computer. He's not going to go where the kids are. They let him out. Even though he used this

3:50 hospital as a networking place, he met another sex offender in the same hospital. And afterwards they met up at a family nudist camp where they competed to see who could molest more children at a family nudist camp which are a very interesting place. Children are allowed to go and most camps have rules that everyone must be nude to be at this property. A lot of people wonder if it's uncomfortable for children. One camp addresses in their very bizarre FAQ which is a frequently asked questions portion of their website. They answer the question, "Are children forced to be nude?" The word forced is an emotionally loaded word and suggest unreasonable force or other inappropriate coercion.

4:33 The reality is that as parents, we have a duty to teach our children to behave appropriately. We teach them to brush their teeth, eat healthy foods, even if their desires might be contrary. However, when it comes to nudity, most children are very comfortable nudity until they are taught otherwise by society. With young naturous children, it's just as likely that parents force them to wear bathing suits when visiting municipal pools where bathing suits are mandatory. It's a very weird FAQ page, one that makes me personally uncomfortable. I will say that I'm a very pro-lo person, so what do I know? But and I know that in different parts of the world, nudity is not as sexually charged as maybe America, but it it's strange. Another rule page states, "Sungburned shoulders may require a reasonable length t-shirt, perhaps to the waist, but certainly not extending to the knees or to ankles.

5:26 Going about the property wearing a towel, except perhaps for the first few moments out of the water, is always inappropriate. These camps clearly can be a breeding ground for predators, especially when only a few camps require that parents be with their children at all times. Which means these camps have children zones where children and adults can gather and play and swim in the swimming pool, play pickle ball, play tennis. Why would predators not go there? Like Don Gordon and his friend from the institution. That was their hunting grounds. It was also somewhere where Donald Gordon would take Lisa. One of Don Gordon's victims will be Lisa Plum, whom he starts abusing when she was just 11 years old.

6:07 Don will tell the neurosychologist that well, he just wanted to be a father figure to Lisa. That's why he sexually abused her because both of Lisa's parents were pedals as well. And Lisa's mom was the one to introduce her to Donald Gordon. This is Lisa's story.

6:45 What is Glenn Eden Sun Club? Glenn Eden Sun Club is a family nudis count, which means everybody gets naked together and it's a resort. There's pools jacuzzi's sauna cafe hiking tennis, camping. When you walk in, you will see a sign. Clothing is not optional.

7:08 So, if you even try to throw on a jacket cuz you're cold. Well, maybe if it's cold, everyone might put a jacket on, but it doesn't get really cold too much there. Even children have to get naked.

7:18 The first time you went was when you were five. Yeah. Who took you? My mom had a boyfriend, Larry Feldman, that decided we should all go to Glenn Eden.

7:30 Was there an explanation he gave? I don't remember a specific explanation for Glenn Eden other than other times he said to us, specifically me and my sister, that he was doing what he was doing so that we wouldn't grow up to be frigid.

7:48 Did you want to be there? Was it uncomfortable? No, we did not want to go get naked in front of each other. Yeah, that that was like a horrifying idea when it was presented to us and especially my brother and sister, you know, said we don't want to get naked. That was just not an option.

8:06 So, you were five. How old were your brother and sister? My brother was would have been eight or nine and my sister 10.

8:16 Oh, wow. I mean, I I thought it was interesting cuz I was listening to another interview that you did and I was like, there's no way this resort is still around. I Googled it and it's still open. Like,

8:27 people are going today. And then I was thinking, okay, well, maybe it's one of one that's still open, but there's so many throughout the country. There's just so many all ages nud resorts. Do you feel like that is a place where bad things happen from

8:42 Well, who wants to be naked in front of kids? I mean, who wants to see naked kids?

8:48 It's definitely not safe for children because it's a pedophile magnet and if you're a pedophile and you know about it, why wouldn't you go? And they they let people go. That's who took me was pedophiles and then there's pedophiles there.

9:01 When you say that's who took you pedals, do you mean just Larry or Larry and your mom?

9:06 Well, my mom, I don't know. Um I guess depending on how you define pedophile, but she didn't have a problem um being sexual around us as children.

9:18 What do you mean by that? One day I heard some strange noise in my mother's room. They had called me in the room and then told me to sit down. At 5:00 I really had no context or idea. And I went in and again I did not understand what I was seeing other than I was freaked out. They were having intercourse. But at the time again I didn't understand and I asked my mom are you okay?

9:43 Was there any discussion with your mom after that happened? Yeah I don't remember any discussion other than another time they did that on the kitchen table. I have no idea why the kitchen table I had forgotten this part but one of my siblings told me that Larry asked my brother to take pictures. Gave him a camera. And so it's us three kids kind of awkwardly giggling and just like, you know, looking around watching.

10:10 Do you think that your mom was a file who attracted otheriles or do you think that she was someone who was so starved for male attention? Not that it would justify anything, but

10:22 Right. I mean, she definitely was different than like Larry or others. like they were very intentional and they had plans. So I had a therapist once tell me that she was vicariously

10:39 molesting me and us. There was a actually a scholarly article he gave me. I have it somewhere in a box somewhere. I keep trying to find it. But I don't know is she like she's a vicarious. Um she didn't have any boundaries. No problem. I also feel like she was a malignant narcissist. I do believe she was abused and she has a bad reputation in her family for being an awful scary person.

11:09 In the beginning, it was you, your two siblings that were adopted, correct? Your mother and your biological father, and they divorced when you were

11:18 four or five. What was it like up until four or five as a family unit? Right. So I don't remember a lot because we really don't have picture memory until about the age of five. We have implicit memory. What is that?

11:32 So our bodies remember but we our brains don't start to make pictures with the memory until about then. Most people don't have very many memories at all. You may have a couple here and there under the age of five. All I remember really from my early early childhood is I was a little Episcopalian girl and we went to church and I was very devout and I thought our priest looked like Jesus. Honestly, that's all I really remember. But as soon as my parents divorced, we were no longer going to church. So, she had tried to kill herself. I didn't know it at the time, but I do remember, this is one of my earliest memories as well, is her laying down in bed. It was dark in the room and she was just kind of out of it.

12:19 Then my grandma came um and stayed with us for 2 or 3 weeks, I'm not sure. Then after that, as my brother has nickname, her Hollywood mom came home.

12:32 Describe that. My mom could be very charming, very personable, very put together, and she started having singles um clubs, meets in her home, other single adults. Our home had to be perfectly clean at all times. And when she had these singles clubs, we were supposed to basically stay in the room or whatever. But people would meet us and see us. One minute before anybody came, she'd be screaming at us. you know, we'd have to clean and do this and that and then someone would knock on the door and she'd be like, "Hi."

13:07 You know, completely change her demeanor. Did you find solace in your siblings or was it because it was so tough you guys were having problems as well? What was that like with your siblings?

13:18 Well, there I think there there was some, you know, solace, but really not a lot. I suppose it was probably because of the dynamic that my father set up and my mom. Um, like my parents participated in what's called parental alienation syndrome. Basically, one parent talking crap about the other parent, the other parents talking crap about them, and you have to like share messages. You know, they're arguing in front of you. My mom would say, "Your dad, I don't know if I should fully say it, but um likes to f men in their ass, you know, like to us little kids."

13:55 How old were you? I I'm five. My dad's like, "Your mom's crazy." And one day I felt like I needed a hug. No, I don't want your siblings who are adopted to feel bad. In my mind, I don't think I said it out loud, but I definitely thought, well, just hug them, too.

14:17 Yeah. It was always pointed out, they're adopted. I'm not. They're adopted. I'm not. One time, I was trying to comfort my mom because my mom would kind of cycle from angry rampage mom to sobbing, sobbing mom. And sometimes she'd just be up all night. She was a piano player and she would just cry at the piano. But this time, she was in her room crying. and I'm trying to go comfort her and she said something like, "I wish your sister and brother were like you." Oh, I wish I could just run off with you. You know, and they're like I could see them looking

14:53 and I felt bad for them and I didn't want her to say that, but so we were kind of pitted against each other. On top of that, you know, the Larry was also violent and overized us because there was more than watching them have he would single out myself sometimes do certain acts with with him and my mom, you know, to me and then my sister in the room alone. I don't recall him doing that with my brother, but he lost his temper one day and he told me to make him a bath. Then my brother comes out of his room saying you the mother. So whatever my brother, you know, had a cuss mouth and Larry just did not like that disrespect. So he was yelling at him and he grabbed him by his ankles and picked him up and dunked his head in the toilet a few times.

15:45 Just for clarity, Larry, the first uh boyfriend after the divorce happened. Yes, there was another pedal that targeted me, but I he was more like just a handyman friend of my mom. But John John the bird feel like he was before Larry or they were almost like at the same time. No, John, you know, again, these singles clubs and single mothers are ped magnets. So, they're just looking for opportunities.

16:13 Mhm. And the more vulnerable the better, right? John started doing repairs, giving us ice cream. You know, we grew up in Riverside and it's hot in the summer. And then he just started molesting me. Me. I was probably in his right age group. There was another time that John had taken me into a field. We lived in like a little middle class neighborhood and there was orange groves and then there was like a horse property. So it was kind of converting, you know, from agriculture probably. So there was fields and like he would take us to Thrifty's ice cream and he's like, "You want to get ice cream, Lisa?" Yeah. But instead of going there, he drove me into a field. I always remembered that, right? But then as an adult, a trigger happened and then I had more memory and basically to survive that I had to do some inner child work. But what happened is he threatened if I told that he would insinuate that my mom would die, he

17:15 would kill my mom. And again, I really didn't even know what he was talking about. What should I say, not say? I don't have the words. I just didn't say much.

17:25 Could I ask what triggered you later? My mom's death. Yeah. And at the time, and I I I write about it in the book, it was really weird. After she died, I started getting like these images of him. It's like, why why him? Why now? You know, and but I realized after doing some work, some therapeutic work that because he said if I said anything, she would die. But once she died, there was no no need to keep the secret anymore. When did your mom pass?

18:02 2007. Yeah. So, he was molesting me. He had brought me crayons and a coloring book and told me to lay down in a certain place and he he was had his hand up under my dress. My sister comes in the house. She runs in and sees John molesting me and just like gets like really angry and looks at me. What's going on? You know, and I I didn't again I didn't have words. Some people have said this is why you need to teach kids the proper names of body parts. I agree with that. You should teach kids the proper names of body parts. But that wouldn't have prevented me being molested or some other children in similar circumstances when your family isn't supportive or they're part of it. But

18:48 so your sister sees that she's almost upset with you. Did she tell your mom? She must have told my mom and my dad because then um a day or so later they called me into the kitchen. My mom, my sister and John and my sister's the one that's upset, you know, and she's like, "Tell tell mom what happened or whatever she said." And again, you know, at the time I'm five and I don't even whatever remember. I just don't have much to say, but I I didn't say anything. What did your parents take from that then?

19:26 I don't remember anything happening after that other than John stopped coming by and my sister told me later that he she's friends with his granddaughter or something and that she was being molested by him too, which isn't a surprise. But

19:43 at the time, your sister's anger, was that towards John? Was that towards the situation? Was that towards being young and having no idea what's going on? I mean, I think all of it, she's young, she's not being parented, right? She's seeing bad things happen and her instinct and, you know, is kicking in her wise self and she's probably getting like really frustrated with my parents. You know, my mother really didn't she didn't do any she there was no comfort. There was nothing um like that. And then um one day around that time, my dad, I'm in the car with him and he said, "I heard you were molested again." What do I say? I don't even know what to say to that. And then he said, "Just don't make a big deal about it."

20:30 Why do you think he said that? Well, now because he's a pedophile. He is for sure. He's a bad father. He has no nurturing bone in his body. um he doesn't think it's bad for kids and I don't know what that meant. Don't make a big deal about. But I remember thinking about it, like what does that mean?

20:50 A lot of people their parents will tell them not to make a big deal because maybe they don't want it to reflect on the family or maybe they care about what other people think, but it seems like your dad genuinely didn't think it was a big deal.

21:02 Yeah, I know that's a fact. So John's out of your life and now Larry starts dating your mom or around the time he is the first person that forces the entire family to go to Glenn Eden.

21:14 While we were at Glenn Eden, there was um at least a couple molesters lurking around. I'm sure there was more, but there was a I call him the hairy guy. He was in the the little pool, the kitty pool, and um he had us all lining up and he would pick us up and throw us. He's He slipped right grabbing my groin area. It hurt. You know,

21:37 he's lining up children. Children are all lined up, tossed in the deeper end. You know,

21:42 where are any of the other adults at? Just walking around. They see it. They walking by.

21:48 No, no second thoughts about it. I mean, I did go down a rabbit hole because I was like, I didn't even know nudist camps for families existed. So, I'm looking and I was trying to understand why people would even advocate for it existing.

22:04 And I mean, there's this one place they were doing a Q&A cuz I was trying to see maybe the other perspective of is this an establishment that should exist?

22:13 Right? And it was, "Are children forced to be naked?" And their response was so bizarre. It was force is an emotionally charged word. In fact, if you force your child to wear a bathing suit, that is also a use of force. Children have to do things they don't want to do all the time.

22:33 Yeah. They're all philosophers. And I'm sure some people go to nudist camps aren't pedoph.

22:43 Hey, there's this guy the doctor. They call him the I don't know if he was a doctor, but he um would wear goggles and just swim underneath.

22:53 Oh my god. I know people and nobody was like we got to well us kids I don't know what the adults were doing or if anyone told the adults but we'd be like this you know when he go to swim under or h he's there we can't really go swimming cuz everyone was like creeped out by him and so there was that and then also you know when you're socialized early and you're looking at naked people looking at each other like kids are starting to try to you act out prematurely.

23:26 I was reading online of someone saying they had a term called COG, creepy outside guys that would try to get into the nudist camps.

23:35 Oh, to look at the children. So, it seems like it's a a big issue that they try to

23:41 Let's just keep doing that. Yeah. How about if you want to be naked in front of adults, keep it to adults,

23:47 right? Yes. Leave the children alone. So, how frequently would Larry force you guys to go to Glenn Eden?

23:54 We probably went every weekend or once a month, but then he gave my mom a letter breaking up with her and which she had us read. Basically, he had to break up with her because he just couldn't take us kids anymore.

24:09 Your mom made you guys read the letter. Yeah. What's the reason behind that? Um, because she's pointing out how we ruined her relationship with this guy. they were gonna get married, you know, and us kids again.

24:23 Were you happy to hear that letter? I mean, I felt sad for my mom because I did. You know, when you're kids, like before you hit puberty, usually children are just all about their parents and always trying to do the right thing and really care about them. And anyway, that's how I felt. But also, I didn't miss him

24:42 at all. Life just went on. And what happened, you know, like when you molest a child, you molest the neighborhood really, right? So, um, my brother had experienced violence earlyization and, um, he started to take that out on me.

25:03 I think there was something you said that stuck with me. It was like when you are labeled as having been used, people feel like you're fair game.

25:11 Humans are like that. Yeah. My brother just started um he was kind of like the leader boy in the neighborhood. My brother and sister were they were tough kids. Started pancing me. We definitely didn't have video games at the time and stuff. We're always playing outside hideand go seek and all that and but it became a game. chase Lisa down and pounce her. And so they'd rip off my clothes and then, you know, like pin me down and force my legs open and all of that like over and over and pretend or try to put objects in and just like thought that was the most hysterical thing.

25:48 What is your relationship like with your brother now? Yeah. So, I'll just say when I um started to the healing process, I decided I was going to confront the people I could cuz I was really pissed.

26:03 Yeah. I started to get really in touch with that. And uh although my therapist is like, I don't recommend it, you know? I'm like,

26:10 oh well, I'm going to go do it anyway. But I started to confront my brother. Out of all the people I confronted, he didn't let me finish. And he said, Lisa, I'm sorry for what I did to you.

26:20 Do you forgive him? I do. I forgive him. And forgiveness is a really difficult word. And how do you define it and all of that, right? But um it doesn't erase emotions right away. Sometimes people prematurely forgive. Sometimes they're not open to it. My relationship with him now is not it. We don't have a relationship right now. He's really struggled his whole life. Struggled to be regulated, we'll say. I wish there was something I could do or to be helpful in that, but I'm also not going to take verbal or otherwise abuse.

26:55 How old were you and how long did that last? So, I feel like it happened about the time of Larry,

27:03 maybe when Larry was still around or right after he left. And it stopped when my stepdad came in my life.

27:10 Is this Ray? Yeah. Uh unfortunately though, the neighborhood um kids like the boys that were involved. I do remember one friend's brother one time was kind of at it or you know part of the group and then he never came back around,

27:26 you know, like he's like, "No, I don't want part of this." But some of some of the other boys did continue. So just saying kids have choices too, right? And he didn't he didn't want to be a part of it. But these other boys down the street, they I don't know what was happening to them too, but they just took on a life of their own. Like I'd be riding my bike down the street and they come and pull me off my bike and drag me into their room. And one time I'm sobbing on this guy's lap and his mom hears, knocks on the door, opens it. Is everything okay? And I'm sitting there like 6, 7, 8, I don't know how old I was. And she said, "Is everything okay?"

28:06 to her sons and they're like, "Yeah, it's fine." And she closed the door and walked away.

28:12 So, these are other like 6, seven, 8year-old boys. Were they a lot older? They they were not 6, seven, they were older. I'm not sure if they were four years older or 6 years older, but they were definitely stronger than me.

28:29 And I'm sure if you're riding your bike and they're pulling you off your I mean, someone's got to see that at some point, right? You would think so.

28:36 So, nobody says anything. Nobody It just keeps continuing. Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know what the neighborhood saw or didn't see, but we're just kind of wild kids in the neighborhood. You know, we all smoked,

28:51 drank, stole what we could from the store. Um, weed, but I was a regular smoker at 8 and you could get cigarettes from vending machines, but my mom always had a carton and we'd just like take cigarettes. And so I don't even remember

29:06 my first cigarette. So Ry comes into your life. Who is Ry? Um so Raymond Mcnite one morning I was going to go to school. My mom was actually going to take me. Um but this guy knocks on the door and I go and open it and he's just like, "Hey." You know, big old smile. And he was carrying fuller brush stuff. Do you know what that is?

29:35 Cleaning supplies, I guess, and mops and whatever. Selling Fuller brush stuff door to door. And um so my mom invited him in, got him some coffee, and they started talking and then she took me to school and when I got back home that day, he was still there. See,

29:56 but luckily he was a good guy. Um because he could have totally been a bad guy. you know, my mom's like, "Hey, anybody, it's fine." Um, and so they stayed together and Raymond, he was just um, again, a good guy. And he started to notice some of the dynamic in the family. And he was probably the first one that ever told my brother, "Boys don't hit girls."

30:23 Wow. Yeah. Like that's not okay. He started to parent us. Do you feel like all of you guys felt safer, better with Raymond around,

30:35 but then he leaves? Your mother leaves? Well, so he was a merchant marine. He was a cook on oil tinkers mostly. So he would be gone a lot, but I guess when he wasn't on a ship, sometimes he'd do sales like Fuller Brush and stuff, but um I was the youngest and he made up a nickname for me, but he would always call me baby or sugar, you know, like from North Carolina, you know, and um

31:05 but then he's like, I want to call you vanilla and he's chocolate, you know. But I remember thinking at the time like I don't even like vanilla.

31:14 Yeah, I'd much rather be chocolate. I like chocolate. But he wanted that. And so he'd always say, "Hey, vanilla." I guess I cried a lot at night. I also had a problem where instead of peeing the bed, like I wouldn't pee for a long time. I was just like, so like in the middle of the night, I'd wake up and I'd have to go. I was in a lot of pain. But he wasn't really part of that. But when I was crying at least a couple times, I remember him coming in and picking me up and carrying me and putting me next to my mom and then he went to the couch.

31:49 Now, my mother never did that on her own. She just let me cry. But he, cuz he is a good guy, figured, "Oh, she needs to be with her mom." It was that act that was nurturing, not him putting me with my mom.

32:03 Yeah. Having Ry in your life, did it make you realize? Because at that point you said right afterwards you didn't really understand that you were traumatized. Did that maybe put things into perspective or you were still at the age where you weren't processing it? Yeah. I I mean I don't even think trauma even became a word for many many years later at least in regards to childhood. Although one day I did see a child abuse commercial.

32:29 Oh. I was looking at it. I was like, "Does that am I, you know, am I included in this? Do I count like just kind of a weird

32:40 first introduction to it?" So, see, advertising works. Yeah. That's the first thing that got me thinking about child abuse with Rey. I know now looking back what he what we would say in the therapeutic world is he was a protective factor.

32:56 Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. So, there's a study called the ACE study, adverse childhood experiences, which I don't like the way they asked some of the questions. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark, Murdoch, Death in the Family is the new Hulu original series that explores the unraveling of a southern dynasty through a deadly boat crash, double homicide, and a massive embezzlement scheme. Inspired by shocking actual events, the dramatized series draws from reporting by Mandy Matney, creator of the popular podcast that followed one of the most twisted crime sagas in recent history. This gripping series brings the drama to life like never before. It's a story of secrets, deception, and murder. Watch the Hulu original series Murdoch, Death in the Family, streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

34:02 But adverse childhood experiences are basically severely traumatizing or stressful events or occurrences that happen in children's lives. It was actually a California doctor, an obesity doctor that started it at the time. He was interviewing his patients to see if they were ready for surgery. And he accidentally asked the wrong question. Um, how much did you weigh at your first experience? And the person said 40 pounds. And so he was like, "Oh, oh, I wonder if like he didn't mean to ask that, but it's pretty logical now." But he started to wonder if ch if being molested was correlated to being obese, and it is, they've discovered. But not just that, it's not just a 100% correlation, but any adverse childhood experience, physical abuse, abuse, parents divorcing, losing a parent, parent in in prison, feeling neglected or unloved, I forget the other ones. Um, I don't like how they asked the

35:00 molestation question because they asked, did someone 5 years older than you, that's a why? That's a big gap. It used to be kind of like 2 years. You can be molested by someone your own age, someone just more powerful. Adults can be molested, but of course, it's different. It's not a child situation. Um but anyway, um there's still it's ongoing across the world study. What they have found is that the more ACEs you have, the more likelihood in adulthood you'll be obese, have cancer, heart disease, drug, alcohol, addiction, and mental illness. Again, it's not 100% correlation, but it's a high much higher correlation. And the really um one of the main reasons is when you go into the stress state, fight, flight, freeze or fawn, your body releases adrenaline, norepinephrine cortisol these chemicals that help us in case, you know, a tiger's attacking us or something. And we need that. So, cuz then we numb out, we don't feel it, or

35:57 we're extra strong, we can lift the car off our husband or um but you only want to go in it and out. But when you're under these constant stressors, you're always your body changes to always being in the stress state. And that feels normal, but it's not good for you because then you're always in an inflamed state

36:16 and that's like sucks the dopamine or serotonin from our brain, right? And then we we're dopamine seekers. And there's healthy ways of getting dopamine and unhealthy ways, but you know, like drugs, alcohol, all that is quick dopamine hits. But when people have protective factors in their childhood, their outcomes are better.

36:39 So it kind of it's like a balance maybe a little. Yeah. So I really think if I hadn't had Rey,

36:46 I mean maybe maybe I wouldn't have been able to survive cuz he gave me a taste of what love feels like, what it actually feels like. Um, but a protective factor could be a parent, a a teacher, a a friend, a coach, you know, just somebody like every little good thing that you can say to somebody matters. It really matters like like you're you're really special or you know, I can see you're going to do good in life or all of that adds up.

37:15 I know there's a guy named Donald. Don, how did he even come into your life? You were 11.

37:21 Yeah, I was 11. Um my sister uh she I guess she graduated high school early but this is my memory. She graduated high school and went back to Indiana to visit our grandmother.

37:32 Mhm. via train and on the way back she met Don and Jod the being the pedoph they were they saw a young girl uh you know I'm guessing this is how it happened and started talking to her. Where are you from? Blah blah blah. Somehow they figured out that she had been to Glenn Eden before and they're like, "Well, you should come to Glenn Eden with us, you know, and Oh, and you have an 11-year-old sister. She should go to Glenn Eden."

38:03 So, they come over and meet your mom. Yeah. But the first time I met them, like my mom said, "You're going to go to Glenn Eden." And I didn't want to go to Glenn Eden because I don't want to get naked in front of people. And then of course I don't want to see the hairy guy or the doctor, whatever. Right. And then I don't know these people.

38:22 Why do you think your mom was basically forcing you to go to Glenn Eden? She told me she didn't want me to argue with my brother. We argued too much. But my brother was beating my ass all the time. Okay. My siblings were beating me up. And I mean, I did my best, right? But I was the youngest. And and my brother's a tough guy. So there was always chaos, right? My mom yelled at us. We yell at each other. Just it was always like that. But anyway, she said that I could go with them and then we wouldn't argue.

38:53 So, your brother's going to stay home. You and your sister are going to go to Glenn Eden with this random couple she met on a train.

38:59 Yeah. But really, the way it was set up, it seemed like it was just me going, but my sister did go at least the first couple times, but she had a boyfriend and she was like 16. So, what happened is they show up, I have to go. I'm not given the option. But Jodie, she's like 6'2 and she was a basketball player.

39:21 Wow. And I love sports, martial arts and stuff at the time. It was I just loved softball. I was a softball player. Jodie, of course, looking back now, I see it like she was like brilliant in her grooming. But I come out looking at this 6'2 tall, skinny blonde woman, blue eyes, and she has one eye that looks the other way.

39:45 So, I'm trying not to stare at it, but she's super charming. Don said, "Oh, you're an athlete, huh? Like, what sports do you play?" And Jod's like, "I play basketball." And she said she was the first woman to slam dunk it in Illinois or something. I don't know if that's true. Do women slam dunk? Anyway, I was like enthralled by her. He's just like this creepy guy, you know. Um, but basically she's just talking talking, which is a perpetrator technique. The Gift of Fear by Gavin Debecker is a really good book to read to learn about perpetrator techniques so you can better guard yourself against them. But so she's just talking talking and saying, you know, well, let's like race out to the car. I have a basketball, whatever.

40:29 So we raced, right? And she's like, "You almost beat me." Yeah, I didn't. And then we go to Glenn Eden. And so I am a smoker at the time, but um I'd never smoke in front of adults. And there she's like, "Here, you can have a cigarette." I'm like, "Really? Me smoke in front of you?" You know, and that's how they got me to Glen Eden. But she just made it all super charming at first. So then um we get there, same thing. You pull up to the toll booth and the guy is like, "Oh, is this your daughter?" And he's like, "No, but I have this letter from her mom." And he's like, "Okay, go on."

41:07 Your mom went out of her way to write a letter to send gives them permission to take me. And that's probably how most ped go in if they if there is any rule against a single man or something, they just find like a vulnerable woman probably. But all the rules are different. So everything was a game with Don and Jod. I said, "I don't want to go. I don't want to get naked." And Jod's like, "It's fine. We're together." And then we get out of the car. It's like, "It's a race. Who can get naked first?" You know? So then it was just weird, you know, as usual at the Nudas camp. Just laying out in the sun and naked people trying to not look at him, but you can't help it. Playing tennis, just whatever.

41:49 What happened one time? This guy was in the pool with me and kind of dunking me and I guess it was flirtatious.

41:56 Don came down to the pool angry and told me to get out and said that I was acting or something.

42:05 Yeah. This was later though. This was not the first time. They had already been actively molesting me at that point.

42:12 After this first experience, how did they pray on you and abuse you further? They just kept picking you up for the weekend

42:21 and your mom just let you go spend the weekends with them. Yeah. Basically how it started was when we went to the apartment, which my mom said I had to go and I just started going to their apartment. Same rules as Glenn Eden. Once you step in, your clothes are off. Family nudist camps are quite the grooming tool. From that point, you know, I had free rain to alcohol. They made me alcoholic drinks. Jody had me cook with her and we gave Don drinks and um cigarettes. And then really how it started was one day Jod was at work. I didn't like to be alone with Don, but I was. And we had just been at the mall and we're in his car and he said, "Your sister said that you want to have me."

43:07 And I'm horrified and like terrified at that. And I said, "No, no, I don't like you." And I feel like I'm in trouble.

43:16 Like like he's like your sister said, you know. I said, "No, I don't want to." And he's like, "No, it's okay." You know, it's all right. And I I said, "No, but I I don't you know, like he's probably 40, 39 or 40."

43:29 Um and I am 11. Yeah. And anyway, I was super worried that Jod would hate my guts. So I said, "Don't tell Jod, please." And finally, he agreed. So, I was afraid that Jodie would find out and then hate me cuz I just that's what children do.

43:48 Yeah, we're magical thinkers and egocentric at least till 8, but older, too. Like, everything feels like it's our fault. That's just the way our brains work.

43:58 So, he said he wouldn't tell Jodie, but we picked her up from work. She pops in the truck and he says, "Guess what? Lisa wants to have me." And I'm just horrified. And um she says, "Oh, okay. That's fine." I just sunk, you know, and then the next thing I remember is just them trying to talk me into a acts like come in the room and watch. That's apparently a big thing. You can just start by watching and then I had to scoot closer and then eventually participate more and more. But it was always, you know, a manipulation, grooming. Jody said to me once that if I had a good father, I would want to have with him. One of the things that he liked to do was watch a movie called Pretty Baby with me. I listened to that part of your interview and I think the way you were describing it initially, I was so convinced it was like a movie off the dark web and it's very much a real movie that you can buy online for $3.99

45:08 right now. Right. Can you tell us about Pretty Baby the movie? Right. So, Brook Shields, the very famous Broo Shields was 11 or 12 at the time and and I'll just say she was not a developed girl at that age. She looked like a child. I'll just be explicit. No pubic hair, no breasts, a child's body. Okay. But in the movie, she is um the daughter of Susan Sandon, who is a to at a brothel, I guess, in New Orleans. And everyone's just happy and everyone just loves their job, right? But Brook Shields is reaching the ripe age of 12, which is where she's going to start working. And so they're going to have this auction for her virginity basically. And it's a whole group of just creepy men bidding on her. They bring her out in like a I don't I don't remember what you call it, but they're holding her up on a plank or something in the movie. Wow.

46:08 Dressed in white. And looking like a child, but with makeup on her and like sparklers and everyone's like, "Oh, this is so wonderful." you know, and Brook Shields in the movie, I know she was a victim. Just her character is just happy about all of it and it's great. Um,

46:26 so it doesn't show any trauma. No trauma. But then the guy that wins takes her up to the room and you see um soft porn basically. You don't see full, but you can tell they're having and then she's like screaming and or not screaming, but wincing or whatever. And then afterwards, she's like a clump on the bed and you think she's traumatized, right? But then all the others come in and she's like, "I'm fine." And just kind of like she's kidding, you know? And it's just so great. And she's totally not affected by it at all. And then you see her bathing and you see her full naked body and they're talking about how they're going to keep selling her as a virgin for a while cuz they can. and one of the Keradines is like becomes her husband and he slaps her and you know and whatever she's playing with dolls but the whole point of the movie really is it's showing like it's totally fine you know to have at that age and

47:28 make money and it doesn't bother you. And so that's one of the things Don said to me. Um he said that he was busted for molesting his children. But of course it's not molestation. It's people that aren't aware of like higher laws and you know are repressed or Yeah. Um he said he didn't harm his children. The court system harmed his children. That's what harmed his children.

47:53 I love the quote when you say all pedophiles are philosophers. They are. Yeah. They have a complete explanation why they are living the higher law. Why other people are repressed? They are all pedophiles are philosophers. And he told me too, he said, "You know, your mom is crazy." Like he and Jod would like interject these things. She was. That's true. And he knew it.

48:17 But they're also right. But also, when you tell a child that, it's going to alienate them more and cause confusion. And when you're confused and you're not sure, like you're you're you're not steady. You don't know. And of course, I really I know now I I couldn't have chosen any differently. But um but that's how perpetrators keep people off balance. One of the ways

48:41 I know you have a change.org petition to ban Pretty Baby. Mhm. I was trying to figure out how it's not already banned. Um

48:50 they say because it's artistic and she was not actively engaged in being that it's not CCM, which I think is insane because how is it how can you justify artistic expression on that? And they won't they wouldn't make a movie like that now. No.

49:08 Or they would get in trouble. Yeah. So he would make you watch this movie over and over just like here come sit down. And at the time he had a um a projector. It started with me sitting next to him here and Jody there. And then he would touch us. Even on a camping trip we went on. He brought it. There was actually a couple times, I can only think of one right now, where I see now looking back grooming me to maybe be a a prostitute.

49:40 Well, of course, pretty baby, right? Um, also trying to normalize it. And he was always like, it would be me doing you a favor is how he framed it

49:51 to be my my first, you know, like like it would be a chore for him. and you know we're friends and we're like close so this is like the best way and you know but I I was resistant I was always like I don't want to this was just something that he continued to try to do. One time we were um in a city somewhere and they said we're going to go to like pick a part or something so you should just wait here in this park. I'm like okay whatever. So, I'm just sitting in this park up against a tree and then a truckload of men speaking another language start walking towards me. Like they park and they start walking towards me and I'm like, and this guy, he starts speaking in Spanish. Hey, showing me his wallet. And I'm like, uh, I don't speak Spanish. He's like, "You me in the truck?" And I'm like freaked out. And I just said, "No, no, no." And gratefully they left.

50:55 So you think they set that up? Yeah, I definitely do now. So cuz then I'm sitting there like, you know, like they left. I'm upset. And Don and Jod finally come back and I get I get in the truck and I told him what happened and Don said, "You should have done it." Mhm.

51:12 And how long did this go on for? From 11 to 13, so we were always naked and there was other girls. Sometimes the camera was always out. I do remember sometimes Jod like dressing me up and something. But again, everything's a game and we're just all happy and having fun together and whatever and drinking a little bit here, smoking a little bit there. They're still molesting me. But as time went on, I saw the other girls less and less. It was just me and Don and Jod a lot. One day, Don said that, you know, I could be a model. And I was like, I thought very low of myself. I thought I was ugly and fat. Not that there's anything wrong with whatever you weigh, but anyway. And I didn't like the idea, but he's like, "No, no, like I'm going to take you to this photographers's." But also, some other girls went.

52:03 I know that on the way there, you hear a voice. Mhm. Okay. Yeah. So, again, at this time, I think I'm closer to 13,

52:13 and I really didn't know anywhere I was ever going driving, right? Except for like right where I grew up. I knew that area.

52:21 Anyway, I'm just in the back of the pickup truck just going to those photographers. Even though I didn't want to, I did. I I heard a voice. It said, "Lisa, memorize how to get there." I just kind of shrugged it off like that was weird, you know? Then I heard it again. Lisa, memorize how to get there and it just felt like really kind and like do it, you know, sort of like really please do it. And so I did. I just I looked out open up the little shell window and I'm like memorizing like it's this is in Santa Ana, California, 14th Street, 7th Street.

53:03 like I'm memorizing. And then we pull up and it's like this twotory office building with the doors almost like a hotel. It's kind of ugly. So we all race up, you know, cuz it's a game. They open the door and this guy is sitting behind this desk and he had a Rubik's cube. So I said, "Hey, can I play with your Rubik's cube?" and he just like coldly met my eyes with his

53:27 and didn't say anything but just like this really uncomfortable, you know, like it made me just like look away and I just sat down. So, the pictures were just not naked or anything. And we got over that I would say the next week. Well, before that happened, I was alone in the apartment with Don and Jod and I heard him talking on the phone with this guy and he said, "Lisa, we'll do nude pictures." I said because it seemed surprising to me for some reason. I said, "No, I won't." And Don turned and looked at me like, you know, and he, you know, cuz he's on the phone with the photographer and he said, you know, "Sit down." And he's usually trying to be Mr.

54:08 Nice, fun guy, and that that was it. But then later that week at school, detectives came to my school to interview me. Don and Jod had gotten busted. At the time they had what's called photomat.

54:24 Yeah. You used to have to turn in your film to get pictures developed and he turned in the pictures of his victims.

54:33 Yeah. Probably he thought this is completely normal or was it an accident? Like

54:39 I mean that's what I heard. I'm not 100 100% but I think I read that in a police report or something.

54:44 So the police come to the school. They ask you questions about Don and Jod and then your mom comes. By this point, she already knew that the police were talking to you.

54:52 Well, like usually I rode my bike to school, but yeah, that day she was picking me up and they had asked questions and asked me why my mom let me go, you know, and I said, "Well, I had to go. She told me I had to go." He said, "You're going to go to a shelter home." which I didn't really understand again at the time that it was because they were suspicious of my mom and going to put me somewhere safe. I guess she came in the office and I'm walking out I guess to go to the shelter home. She like grabs me and hugs me. Why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you tell me? And tell you what, like I didn't think about it at the time, but obviously I remembered like all the stuff you did with me, you know, like obviously she was just trying to look good in front of the police officers and like she never hugged me before.

55:41 They're arrested. Did you have any feelings in that moment? Felt guilty. I felt sad. I felt confused.

55:49 So that was the feeling in the moment. Mhm. When did it change? When did you feel like I shouldn't feel this way?

55:58 What? Did it take years? Uh, yeah, it took years. In this shelter home, you get in there and the girls are like, "What are you in here for?" "Oh, I was beaten. Oh, I was molested." And I'm I'm like, "What am I in here for? I don't know." You know, but we concluded I was molested. Well, I had found out about the photographer at this point, and I thought, "What does that mean? They don't love me.

56:24 What exactly happened to the photographer? He was taking photos of kids. Yeah. So, when I was first put in the shelter home like the next day and was interviewed by Orange County detectives, one of the detectives somehow it's just me and him in a room and he said, "Do you happen to know where this photographer is?" And how I even know to ask the questions, right, or find me or anything else? Um, I don't know. But he said, "Don and Jod don't know where this photographer is. M

56:53 and I was like I remembered I memorized how to get there and before I could say that he said that he was known for killing kids.

57:04 Killing kids. Yeah. He he literally told me a girl was found in a dumpster and a boy was t tied to a chair. My whole life I was like it feels like I'm making it up when I say it. you know, uh, years later, the detective that, um, the one of the detectives was very kind to me, but I called him years later and I asked him about it. Did you know? And he said, "Yes, I did, but I I knew he was a snuff film maker, but I didn't want you I didn't want to burden you anymore." That detective in the room told me that, and then I said, "I know how to get there."

57:43 And and you took them there. You guys were in the car, drove there. He said, "Let's go right away." And I said, "Turn here. Turn here." I tried to look at it last time I was in Santa Ana or on the map.

57:54 You still remember? Yeah. But I I would if I saw it if it was still there, but we literally all three of us, two detectives and me, go up to the studio door.

58:04 They just let you go to the door. They did. And they knocked on it. And I I'm thinking at this point, what if he sees me or could he kill me someday? But no. and nobody answered and they didn't try to break down the door. They didn't do anything. They just took note and we left.

58:21 I'm so sorry. So, when Don and Jod were were on the phone talking about, "Oh, you will do the photos." That was him that they were talking to.

58:28 Yes. What was what was the timeline of that and then when they were arrested like a week

58:34 and they were trying to sell photos or I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I was reading his file, Don Gordon, and they were saying that when he was let out briefly on parole, he had made friends with another child molester in the hospital.

58:52 That's another place. Yeah. And then went to a nudist camp together afterwards after they were both released and competed to see how many children they could molest.

59:04 Wow. Years later, when I'm a new mom, out of the blue, Orange County contacts me and asks me to testify on behalf of Dawn's newest victim. Now, from 13 to 23, I don't know if I was 23 or 24, but that would be about 10 years. He only got 10 years. It turns out he didn't even serve 10 years. He only served like five cuz probably good behavior. They're always on good behavior when your chosen victim isn't with you. They asked me to testify on behalf of his newest victim. ended up he pled and they said I didn't have to. But that was a complete re-triggering.

59:40 I did end up going to court. Was he in the courtroom? Yeah. That was your first time seeing him since

59:46 Since Yeah. What was that like? Um it was scary. I didn't ever want him to see me again. That was the big thing, you know. So it took them weeks after they asked me to do it um to tell me that he um pled. And that's really really triggering. really activating. We went to court anyway just to have a completion process, I guess. I just kind of hid behind my husband and he looked over in our direction, but I don't think he saw me or I don't know if they used my name even. Maybe maybe I knew at the time, but but I don't think he would have been expecting me to show up necessarily that time.

1:00:31 So, there's a point where you move and then you run into Jodie. Yeah, I actually ran into her once in Riverside and I did ask her, "Are you still molesting children when I'm pissed?" Thanking Clara, no, you know, by that time I've been training in martial arts. Come on, Jody. I'm an adult now. Now what? You know, that's how I felt. But she's like, "Oh, Lisa." And then whatever.

1:00:57 She just said, "Oh, Lisa." Yeah. like you're just asking her a normal question.

1:01:01 Yeah. Like silly you. Um then later we move from Riverside and we're living in Apple Valley. The day after we move into Apple Valley, I see her at the grocery store in the grocery store parking lot.

1:01:17 Did she see you? Did you say anything this time? No. So like I'm flipped out. I have my toddler in the back seat and I just park more strategically and I wait. I'm gonna follow her cuz like is she my neighbor? Did I just move in where she's next to me or something?

1:01:35 You have kids now? Yeah, she lost me. I don't think she knew I was following her, but I don't know the streets. I couldn't keep up with her. But I had heard about Megan's Law, so I asked my friend to go with me. And at the time, Megan's Law did not give address, only zip code. And you had to go to the sheriff's.

1:01:53 Oh. So I went there. I said, "Jod Jones, Jodie Gordon." What? Because they got married after they got busted for me. You can't testify against your spouse.

1:02:04 That's crazy. They I thought they were married before. They got married basically in jail.

1:02:11 Yeah. How How do they even get to do that anyway? Yeah. It's crazy. They can do all kinds of things, right?

1:02:16 Yeah. So that they wouldn't have to testify against each other. Okay. Anyway, the lady at the Megan Law Sheriff's Station um said, "No, I don't I don't see her." I said, "But she's supposed to, but when I was a child, I was molested by her and Don Gordon." And she's like, "Well, let's look up him." Donald Lee Gordon. It wouldn't come up Don Gordon. And she's like kind of looked at me and she's like, "Where did you just move from?" Atlanta. There's a lot of kids.

1:02:46 Yeah. And so this lady's like, "Okay, well, I'll get his pearl officer to contact you." So we meet up. He got mad at me that I lived in the high desert and didn't tell them. But he's not supposed to be within 25 mi of a victim.

1:03:03 But they don't even alert you. They just expect you to constantly alert. Well, I don't I mean, I think it's it's supposed to be different now. And maybe it was supposed to be different then, but nobody ever told me any anything at all ever that I should let them know where I live or that they're going to tell me when he gets out. Like that's supposed to be part of victim's rights now.

1:03:25 But he was kind of a jerk. But at the time, I'm like sort of freaked out because I still think about the photographer a bit. And Dawn, I have little kids. And so I asked the pearl officer, "Can you please just search him just on the off chance?"

1:03:40 Yeah. Less than 1%. Okay. Maybe it's less than 1%. But that Dawn knows I'm in Atlanta or was in Atlanta or what I look like now or what my kids look like if he has a picture.

1:03:51 Yeah. You know, and I feel like I must sound crazy when I'm asking him, but I asked him. He can search him anytime, anytime he wants. And he said, "Okay, I will." Um, but a couple I don't know, a week, two weeks go by, I don't hear anything. So, I ask him and he said, "No, I didn't search him." And I always think, man, he should have just lied to me and said, "Yeah, I didn't find anything, but I don't recommend lying." But he just like, "No, I didn't." And I'm getting more and more upset. I'm crying. I'm like, "But you said, and I just wanted the off chance just in case. I just wanted some relief and you know he's just a jerk. And so I said, "Well, I want to speak to your supervisor."

1:04:39 And then I give the supervisor the story and he says, "You know, you really need therapy." Yeah, I appreciate your shocked reaction. Yeah, I wanted to say no. Really? Like, but also how condescending right? So, all those negative interactions are happening and then um some angel police officer cuz I probably got on the phone and I was calling around gives me Jod's address. At the time I was going to school to be a therapist,

1:05:16 right? I went to school over many years, one class at a time. She was she lived near the college, so they weren't she wasn't living where he was in Atlanta. But not only did Jod live by the college, but I would run into I I literally ran into her in the doctor's office. At this time, I didn't go up to her anytime. And I had my kids and you know, she in the doctor's office was with an old person. She was an inhome healthc care aid and you're not supposed to do that as a registered offender. But I also ran into her in Walmart. And so anyway, the Victorville Police Department said, "Okay, we're going to go and check on her." And I said, "She is supposed to be a registered offender and she wasn't just in the kitchen baking cookies. She was very involved and she should have had a second strike with that victim that I was to testify against in my 20s and in California at the time. I don't know now, but would

1:06:13 have had a third strike not being a registered offender." Yeah. But they they tell me, "No, she didn't realize she was supposed to be a registered offender."

1:06:23 She didn't realize that that's or she forgot or Yeah. I'm like, "No, no." So, you were going to school to be a therapist.

1:06:33 What was the reason for your decision? Is it to help yourself, help someone else?

1:06:40 Yeah, I mean both. Like I did start, you know, when I got really bad postpartum depression and all my trauma came out and I started to go to therapy out of desperation. I became clean and sober cuz I I spent my whole childhood drinking, smoking, methamphetamines and stuff. And at 18, I got clean. But then I started to crave again when all the trauma started to come out. And I'm like, so I started doing 12 steps and then I I went to therapy. I I got actually got in as abuse recovery group which was very helpful and I realized I wanted to be a therapist but also like I knew in my heart like I didn't want to do what the molesters wanted. It didn't feel right but I didn't have the words to explain it. I didn't have the science, you know, like I needed to unindoctrinate myself from all of that.

1:07:35 And gratefully it was never a temptation of me to be a molester. Um, I had a natural instinct to protect, you know, but I didn't know how to explain why they were wrong. I definitely went for that to find really the best way to heal, the fastest, bestest way to heal. In the process though, I'm always kind of like arguing with God cuz I felt like go be a therapist, Lisa. I'm like, but no, I can't. You know, like you have the wrong person. I used to have such bad anxiety. I couldn't even look people in the eye.

1:08:09 Oh, that was me. I had to have such a hard time. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Martial arts helped a lot with that. But um actually it's one of the top trauma treatments.

1:08:19 Really? Martial arts. Yeah. And um Judith Herman wrote trauma and recovery and she talks about it and I just listened to Gabbor Mate talk about it too or somebody else. But um one reason is like you are now in charge of the violent situation and you're you're rewiring your nervous system basically. I guess that's the other reason too. You're you're rewiring your nervous system. But also you gain some confidence like well maybe I could take care of someone. Some people maybe not everyone but if that person

1:08:51 But I grew up fighting. Yeah. getting beaten up on and my brother would tell me to beat up this person or

1:08:58 there was always like a fight and so in my brain it's like always going to come down to a fight. I had to remind myself it won't necessarily but it's always there

1:09:07 like it's going to come down to a fight if people Going back a little bit I know in your previous interview that you've done before you were saying how there was a time where you thought that maybe you would take care of Jod yourself when you saw her.

1:09:25 Yeah. So, so martial arts did help me feel like I was probably too confident, but you know, I was young in my 20s. I had all this rage. I learned that all this depression and irritability, which nobody named it PTSD at the time, but I was always like, is it PTSD? Yeah. But, um, I, you know, anger or anger turned inwards is depression. And you got to put the anger and the feelings where they belong. That doesn't mean you confront people or it doesn't mean you beat them up or anything. You can journal it out. You can visualize it, right? Anyway, when I started to feel depressed, I just assumed I guess I'm feeling angry. And and so Jodie, Don, whoever, my parents journal. I journal, journal, journal. I didn't want to. Nobody ever wants to at first. No, none of my client not none of them. But a lot of people don't want to journal.

1:10:20 But it's like it's really helpful if you can't do anything else. What happened with Jodie is she did have to register as aender though.

1:10:29 Okay. Okay. So then now she's on Megan's law but I still am running into her. My emotional state was questionable at times and I would feel you know the PTSD, depression, rage and so I thought you know let me just take care of it. I actually called my husband once like circling Jod's house like I could um just take her out cuz she's going to reoffend. I told the Victorville police she's going to she'll do it on her own without Don. And they're just like whatever. So I imagined that I could kill her a couple different ways, you know, and that I'm no good anyway. I'm screwed up. You know, what do I think I'm doing being a therapist? I'm not a good mom. I'm not a good wife. like let me just kill her and then you guys you can move on you know I'll be in prison and you know because I just lose my mind half the time with the situation but um I didn't you know thou shalt not kill right um but I did indulge in some fantasies a

1:11:39 few times killing her my dad my mom or torturing him or whatever and I'm Not saying that's totally unhealthy. Like there can be a healthy element to that, you know, don't act on it. Don't follow through necessarily, right? Necessarily. You shouldn't kill people. Okay. But um anyway, the feelings need to go where they belong. And so I'm glad I didn't act on it, but um she did reaffend.

1:12:13 Yeah. I found out on Megan's law. So, it was while she was in the high desert. I forget the exact name of the charge, but with a teen. So, then I tried to call cuz I'm pissed a lot, right? And I'm just going to call people. They didn't call back, of course. But I said, "Huh, she reaffended. Look at that." But I could check on Megan. And then she disappeared from Megan.

1:12:35 How? Well, first I'm like, "She's from Illinois. Let me see." Yeah. She was in Illinois and her charges were lower. I called them and I said, "She's high-risisk, just so you know." Oh, the lady was nice. Oh, I really appreciate you letting me know. I'll do what I can. But nothing was ever done. But then she disappears off Megan's law again. And another perpetrator, another case, Glenn Low, that in my teenage years I also that was a situation was on Megan's law. Glenn, Dawn, and Jod. It gave me a certain sense of some control. Like, I know where they lived. I'm not going to move next to them,

1:13:16 right? But Glenn and Jod got off Megan's law. A loophole. They might have to register. I don't know, though. Why would I know? Why would anybody tell me anything? But they won't show up on the public registry. I've heard people say, "That poor guy, he was only urinating in public and got on Megan's law." No. No. It's really hard to prosecute anybody for any offenses. It's so many perpetrators get off scot-free. I would be shocked if anybody's on Megan's Law cuz they were urinated in public. Those are stories people tell.

1:13:51 Did you confront your dad about any of this? I did. Yeah. Back in my 20s, um I realized, okay, he didn't protect me. So anyway, I'm just trying to confront anyone I could. So I told him about John, which he, you know, told me don't make a big deal, right? But um whatever. This happened. This happened. This happened. This happened. This happened. This happened. And he said, "You had quite an extensive sex life." I'm just like standing there. And then he said, "And children under the age of three don't remember." So for me, like we talked about memory.

1:14:36 I have some memories and I'm not so sure. A little I don't know. It's in that category of I don't know. I can't say, but I'll heal it anyway. I'll do inner child work. I'll have compassion for that part. I'll trust my body, right? But I don't know for sure. But so when he said that, it's like, what is he confessing? Anyway, I wouldn't put it past him that he did something to me and my siblings when we were little. He molested my brother. Um, and another high school teacher at the same high school got busted for molesting. At the time, I know it seems silly thinking back now, but unindoctrinating myself and seeing my parents for who they really are took a took a long time. I called my dad when this Mr.

1:15:28 just left my brain. Anyway, he was a drama teacher at Ramona. Got busted. It was in the newspaper. I said, "Dad, Mr. got busted for molesting a boy." You know, like outraged.

1:15:42 Yeah. My dad said, like he's mad at the system. He said, "Every boy, every teenage boy is going to get masturbated sometime. What men do with young men sort of thing. Like it's totally fine and normal." My dad would say very bizarre things to me throughout my adulthood. And um I didn't leave my children alone with him ever. And eventually I did cut off the relationship. But when um my dad was in a relationship with a man Jot um Indonesian guy and he was really nice and I was always like why is it with my dad? But anyway um when Jot died um he had diabetes like type one. My dad was heartbroken. My husband and I went into LA and cleaned out his apartment.

1:16:31 Actually read the eulogy for my dad cuz he couldn't do it. And it was all gay men and Buddhist monks. And but what we found in his apartment was file material. Somebody said, "Don't say Nambla, but Nambla, North American Manboy Love Association." Um, apparently they're they're still going strong and very um retaliatory, but there was that material in the apartment and also like a daddy son magazine or I looked at it and it's all about weird fantasies of

1:17:13 Yeah. File material. So, do you believe Jaw was also part of Yes. I mean, I don't know. I' I'd like to think not, but he was doing something weird with my dad. I don't know if he was file, you know. They were super super concerned if we were circumcising our son or not. Yeah,

1:17:32 that's a very strange Oh, because um it'll reduce pleasure or something like according to them. And that would be like the worst thing we could do.

1:17:42 Is your dad still alive? No. Okay. And I know that you said that you were very triggered when your mom passed. Did you ever get to confront her or No,

1:17:51 I did actually. So, I know this is hard to hear. Okay. Um, but going back to Larry, Larry, that that memory that I don't remember so well going in with my mom and Larry. And then the end, the end was I had a vibrator.

1:18:11 Larry gave me my mom whatever. So when I confronted my mom, I was in the backyard and again I'm sort of like I don't care who hears. I was in it and I said, "Mom, why why did you let Larry give me a vibrator at 5?" And she's like, "Sh, you know, like the neighbors were out and I I just got louder." But that's really it other than um there was always my mom was always kicking me out even as a little girl and give me my baby book, get out, you're not my daughter anymore. Like always that sort of thing. And as an adult too, okay, you're no longer my daughter. Blah blah blah. All these letters and um it was just like exhausting. Yeah.

1:18:59 You know, and I was trying to be a good Christian. I didn't know what the right thing to do was. and you honor your mother and father. What does that mean? And but my family needs to come first. It's always a trigger. So, I did end up cutting off the relationship with her finally.

1:19:17 I mean, obviously, I'm very naive, I guess, but like there was no before both of them passed, there was no I mean, you're their daughter. There was no apology. There was no

1:19:27 never. The last words my dad said to me was that I was an But on my mom's deathbed, I did go visit her and I visited my dad. Ironically, they couldn't speak. Also, I didn't I didn't say anything mean. Being a therapist, do you feel like there are certain situations or patients that trigger you and that you would

1:19:53 recommend or refer to a different therapist or has it almost been like a dual healing process? Well, it is healing for me to always reiterate self-regulation, inner child work, like it's always being, you know, like reminding myself,

1:20:10 but I don't really get trick. I mean, I can't say not at all. Uh, I definitely can relate to a lot of clients. I couldn't see a predator. Um, it's really never come across. I've never had that opportunity. Maybe in mental health, like community mental health. I may have seen a offender and not known it,

1:20:30 but I would not choose or put myself out there as a offender therapist. Have you tried to reconnect or look up where Raymond is at since then?

1:20:41 Well, so Raymond left my mom when I was 12 cuz he couldn't deal with her anymore, but we reconnected in adulthood.

1:20:49 What? Yeah. I have pictures of him with my sons. Yeah. Did you like look him up and

1:20:55 I think my sister kept in touch somehow with him. Wow. And then I don't remember the initial me getting involved but he lived in one of the times in Compton.

1:21:06 Uhhuh. That was the whole story. But um we went and saw him there and then in Long Beach he lived and then he came and stayed with us in Apple Valley for a while. And my kids see him as the best grandparent for sure. Um,

1:21:23 is he still around? No, he did pass away, too, but he was he was in his 80s. A Yeah.

1:21:31 Okay. And so he still call me Vanilla and Sugar and um my kids call him Chocolate Grandpa.

1:21:39 That's so cute. You wrote a book. When did you start writing it? Well, I felt like from early on I should write a book, but I was like, why do I feel that way? You know, maybe it just maybe am I seek attention seeking?

1:21:54 Yeah, maybe it's healing, right? But yeah, journaling, the journaling turned to the idea of a book like I'll make this a book someday. Um, but then I got to the point where like, you know, I think it was for my own healing. But then the feeling kept coming back, write a book, right? So, I was trying, but ADHD andor just I'm not a natural writer. I don't know. I didn't get it. I know I have a master's degree, but I didn't get a good high school education. I failed out of junior high in high school. I did not earn my diploma, but I'm glad they gave it to me. I found a coach editor that has been helping me write and I've just been refining it.

1:22:30 But you are looking to hopefully release it cuz I know a lot of people say when they read about other survivors experiences, it's they feel less alone and maybe they haven't gone through the process of talking to someone about it. So

1:22:45 yeah, I did that a lot too. Oh, you did? Yeah. I read a lot of memoirs and stuff and I did feel validated and you know curious and also in my memoir it's also a narrative non-fiction where I'm incorporating a therapist's voice.

1:23:02 Oh that's very cool. Okay. So it's a little Lisa telling her what she needed to know. It's a that's a big part of healing getting in touch with your inner child

1:23:13 you know and rescuing them. Okay. So, as people are reading it, it's like they can also feel and see the steps to healing maybe more clearly. Is that

1:23:24 some of it? Yeah. Like I'm I'm going to have to write another book too cuz I was trying to write like two books at once. But yeah, it's informational,

1:23:32 you know, cuz it's really important for people to understand what consent is and that you can't consent when your brain isn't fully developed. You could be an Einstein genius child, but you still can't consent because emotional development and all of that is different from IQ.

1:23:49 Do we have uh any time frame or just any range? Possibly January. Okay. They're going to set alerts. They're going to be emailing you.

1:23:59 Okay. Yeah. And I will definitely put it on social media on my website and all my other social media. Um, I'm just not sure which publisher yet, right? And I'm doing some final touches.

1:24:11 Another thing that really helped me thinking about the protective factors people um whatever good you can inject in a child's life doesn't have to be about abuse and trauma, but like help children dream and believe that they can do what they want to do, whatever that is, and like there's good things to come. And I always held on to hope that there was something good to come and that even when I the depression and everything hit me, believing the therapist like you'll get through it. Um there's good to come. always having something positive to focus on. Not toxic positivity, allowing people to express and heal and get into that rage and feel it all and do what you need to do, but know that you'll come out of it. And keep a visualization of yourself where you want to be, what that feels like, what that looks like.

Questions about this episode

What is "“My Parents Were Pedophiles & Forced Me Into Being With Other Pedophiles”- A Day With Lisa Plumb" about?

The discussion centers around the harrowing experiences of staff at Patton State Psychiatric Hospital, where employees face daily threats of violence from patients who have committed serious crimes. Feelings of fear and anxiety are prevalent, as the staff navigate their roles in a high-risk environment where their safety is constantly at stake, using tools like alarms and whistles to alert…

What is mentioned in this Rotten Mango episode?

74 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Jodie, Jod, Jody, Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs), Megan's Law, Donald Lee Gordon. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "“My Parents Were Pedophiles & Forced Me Into Being With Other Pedophiles”- A Day With Lisa Plumb"?

The episode runs 1 h 25 min; the transcript is about 14,995 words in 225 timestamped sections.

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