Woman Gets FB Message From Old College BF After He Killed His Rapist - This Is Her Response

What this episode is about

The story centers on the unsettling discovery made in Dennis Peg's safety deposit box after his violent death; the box contains a collection of eerie handwritten letters he penned a decade prior. These letters, devoid of significant revelations, hint at a darker past, raising questions about secrecy, guilt, and the hidden narratives people carry throughout their lives.

Key takeaways

• 25 million safety deposit boxes: the ultimate hiding spot for secrets, money, and untold stories.
• Creepy letters in a box: one man's plea for forgiveness becomes a haunting testament to his past.
• Murdered by abuse, avenged by a knife: a chilling reminder that justice often wears a personal face.
• From gambling to prison: a man's quest for distraction reveals how deeply trauma can shape our choices.
• The stakes of trauma: when escaping the past leads to a future with the very monsters we fear.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Stephanie (Guest) · 38 min speaking
• Clark Fedrics (Guest) · 1 h 17 min speaking
• Lisa (Guest) · 13 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 15:00: Dennis Peg, Clark Fedrics, Bird After Re
2. 15:00 – 30:00: Dennis Peg, Bird After Re, FBI, IRS
3. 30:00 – 45:00: Dennis Peg, New Jersey (Jersey), Northeastern
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00: Dennis Peg
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00: Dennis Peg, Howie Ryan
6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00: Dennis Peg, Jeff Hall
7. 1:30:00 – 1:45:00: New Jersey (Jersey), Dennis Peg
8. 1:45:00 – 2:00:00: New Jersey (Jersey)

Notable quotes from "Woman Gets FB Message From Old College BF After He Killed His Rapist - This Is Her Response"

• Stop thinking about is a woman named Lisa. So, what role does Lisa play in all of this? This is part two, the final part of our interview with Clark Fedrics. All of those…

  about Clark Fedrics · at 4:08

• Got caught on a class trip to the Jersey Shore drinking on a bench with two other buddies and the chaperone teachers come up behind us and like seriously guys.

  about New Jersey (Jersey) · at 22:36

• It seems by all accounts you were a very smart kid and you end up at Northeastern.

  about Northeastern · at 30:10

• And then it went to Howie Ryan at the state police station. And then in the county jail, I thought because Dennis Peg worked there.

  about Howie Ryan · at 1:12:39

• Time Dennis Peg was a sheriff's officer, a scout master of troop number 83 in Stillwater and a close friend of our family.

  about Dennis Peg · at 1:15:11

• I will always believe that Jeff killed himself as a result of Dennis Peg's abuse.

  about Jeff Hall · at 1:17:24

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Dennis Peg — Person · Primary antagonist / referenced subject · 20 mentions · first at 1:33
  Central figure in the narrative as the alleged long-term abuser of Clark and many others; his death triggers legal proceedings, victim disclosures, and discussion of institutional failures.
• Clark Fedrics — Person · Main guest · 1 mention · first at 4:16
  Primary interview subject recounting childhood sexual abuse by Dennis Peg, the later killing of Peg, prison experience, addiction/gambling history, and post-release advocacy and writing.
• Jeff Hall — Person · Referenced victim / collateral tragedy · 2 mentions · first at 1:15:34
  Clark cites Jeff Hall as a childhood friend allegedly abused by Dennis Peg; Jeff’s suicide is presented as a consequence of that abuse and part of Clark’s courtroom statement.

Books & papers

• Bird After Re — Book · Primary recommendation · 2 mentions · first at 4:22
  Clark Fedrics' memoir detailing his experiences with abuse, revenge, and healing.
  All of this? This is part two, the final part of our interview with Clark Fedrics. All of those questions will be answered in this part of the episode, but there are still so…

Companies & orgs

• FBI — Company · Referenced organization · 1 mention · first at 17:00
  The FBI was involved in Clark's case due to a hit put on his life by the mob.
  You've been reached out by the IRS, the FBI, and Homeland Security.
• IRS — Company · Referenced organization · 1 mention · first at 19:25
  The IRS conducted a full audit on Clark due to his gambling winnings.
  You've been reached out by the IRS, the FBI, and Homeland Security.
• Northeastern — Company · Educational institution · 1 mention · first at 30:15
  Clark attended Northeastern University, where he met his college sweetheart, Lisa.

Places & events

• New Jersey (Jersey) — Place · Setting · 6 mentions · first at 34:27
  The primary location where the events of the podcast took place.

Sponsors

• Howie Ryan — Person · Referenced law enforcement supporter · 2 mentions · first at 1:11:56
  Named as an early supportive law-enforcement contact after Clark’s arrest, reinforcing the episode’s theme that some authorities supported Clark despite the homicide charge.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:01 Bada bing, bada boom. In America, there are approximately 25 million secret boxes. That's basically what they are. I mean, I guess the official terminology would be a safety deposit box. But these are typically hidden away. These little secret boxes, they're hidden away inside these bank vaults across the United States. And you could say lots of people go there to hide away their expensive stuff, their watches, jewelry, cash. They just stick them in there and no robber can come get them. Things that they don't feel secure keeping in their homes, they go in the safety deposit box. But a lot of the times you open these little boxes up because you have a secret. It's like a spouse hiding cash from another spouse.

0:43 Is it for good reason? We don't know. A family man hiding documents that might include the existence of a second family. That's going in the safety deposit box. He's not going to put that in a shoe box at the bottom of his closet. Usually, you never really have the chance to open someone else's secret box because that's the whole point. They're jumping through all of these hoops to make sure it stays secret. Unless they're dead, then that it's a whole process. Depending on what state you live in and your will, let's just say if you die under suspicious circumstances, like if you were, let's say, killed in your living room by the little boy that you assaulted, only he's not so little anymore. He's a full- grown man with a knife. Then yeah, most likely that safety deposit box is going to be opened under the watchful supervision of authorities and very tense, very awkward bank employees. In

1:33 Dennis Peg's safety deposit box, they find a ton of letters, handwritten letters. None of the letters are particularly insightful. He doesn't spill all of his secrets to confess anything, but the letters are really creepy. First of all, he wrote these letters 10 years before he dies. While he's a relatively healthy, slightly middle-aged man, typically men of that age are not fully estate planning with handwritten letters to everyone that they deem special in their lives. And the letters themselves are strange. They all contain variations of the phrase, "Pray for me if you can," which if they're reading his letters, he's already dead. And forgive me for my faults. I've forgiven you for yours. you were always like a little special son to me or a little brother to me. It's just letter after letter in that safety deposit box most likely written for his victims. Victims who after their abuser

2:29 is dead will be delivered a handwritten letter asking them to pray for their abuser. In part one, we went over the night of the killing where Clark, after 33 years of not doing anything about Dennis Peg, his abuser, when he was 12, he decides he's going to do something now. He goes to Dennis Peg's house after 30 plus years. Dennis sees him at the front door holding a hunting knife that ironically Dennis taught Clark how to sharpen. And all he says is, "Hey, how are you?" Clark is slashing at him, slitting his throat, stabbing him countless times, and then finally he spits on his bed before walking out. Clark's mom tries to help him get away with murder. She's like, "We got to go on the run." But he decides he's going to stay. And that is when the police come for him. They arrest Clark and now he's going to prison where he's going to be placed in the cells with the types of people that he hates the most. I mean, one of them

3:22 that he's already killed. Those are child predators. In part two, we're going to cover Clark's time in prison, how he survived, all the strange details about what it means when your fellow cellmate keeps flushing his head down the toilet, and how Clark is now a free man. We also go into depth about what happened to his brother, another victim of Dennis Peg, who ends up being killed by Dennis. And what even happened in those 33 years between Dennis Peg abusing Clark and Clark killing Dennis for what he's done? Why did the FBI come to find Clark? How does he get involved with the mob, the mafia? Also, the fact that Dennis Peg has likely close to 100 victims, including his own grand nephew, who selfexits soon after Dennis Peg's murder. And somehow throughout all of this, the one person that Clark cannot stop thinking about is a woman named Lisa. So, what role does Lisa play in all of this? This is part two, the final

4:16 part of our interview with Clark Fedrics. All of those questions will be answered in this part of the episode, but there are still so many details and stories that Clark has to share that you can find in his memoir, Scarred, or by following him on his social media and by checking out his podcast. So, that being said, let's get into part two. You've been reached out by the IRS, the FBI, and Homeland Security. That's correct. Were you counting cards? I studied counting cards, but I found it to get a little distracting. This is going to sound weird.

4:50 Okay. You know, I would go to the casinos and I would walk the casino floor and I would get a vibe for a table. I'd be like, "This is the table." And I just get a feeling for it. And I would gamble and I would get a feeling like, all right, it's time to up your bet. And I had an unbelievable like four or five year run in the casinos that was just astronomical. I I'm working in the tire automotive field making $700 a week and I'm down in Atlantic City winning tens of thousands of dollars left and right. And you're just putting cash in your closet.

5:34 Uh in my briefcase in my closet. This goes on for how many years? This this was a distraction from my pain. Yeah. You know, and it's not like I I it's not like I consciously said I have trauma from being abused as a child. I need to gamble to distract myself. It was just I'm uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable. It's my trauma in there making me feel uncomfortable. I I feel uncomfortable and I need something to distract me from that uncomfortable feeling. I need pleasure. I became a pleasure seeker. Don't address anything.

6:12 Don't ever go inside. Let's just seek pleasure our whole life. Whether it's drugs, gambling, whatever it may be, seek pleasure. So that's what I was doing with gambling. Like what is the most you've lost? Most I lost uh was 75,000. And do you feel it in that moment? Like I just lost 75,000. Yeah. You can't sleep. It's just uh acid is a wash in your stomach. Mhm. But again, the the the high you get from losing is just it distracts you from everything just like the high from winning. You start by reading books about gambling and then somehow you end up being very superstitious.

6:56 Yeah. I mean, I went down there just on a whim, like bored with life and and won,700. Went back, won 2,200, but I was getting yelled at at the blackjack table cuz I didn't know what I was doing, but I was still winning. So, I'm like, I'm not going to go back until I know what the hell I'm doing. And I would always hear all this screaming at the craps table that sounded like a blast. So, I had no idea what how to play crap. So I I took like 6 months. I got five deck of cards. I read all these books on blackjack. I read books on craps. I would throw dice in my room. I would play all the hands of blackjack. I'd pick which one I am and and see how it would affect things, my decisions. And and I did that for 6 months until I felt comfortable to go back down. and then just like boom, you know, like 17,000, 28,000, 30,000. It just it just went boom boom boom boom boom.

7:58 Is it true that like if you win or lose, you could blame it on the fact that you stepped on a crack? Like is that like genuinely what starts happening or those little quirks didn't start right away but as you start winning more and more and more you start thinking I all right what what did I do like all right I better not step on any cracks like I don't know even know where it came from like it was just like boom like all right what what what did I do in the days leading up to going to the casino like oh when I went up the stairs stairs. I I jumped that second stair and and then that uh you know like I skipped two stairs there. So like then I would have to go up the stairs a certain way and then I I couldn't step on any cracks on pavement like and then you know like where they paint the blue handicap spots with the wheelchair. I'm like that's bad luck. Don't ever step on that. And and then when I would get to the casino,

9:01 there was a whole other ritual like for rolling the dice, it would I would have to tap it a certain number of times. And in my knee, I would have to hit the table with my knee a certain number of times before I could roll the dice. And it was like it just started getting more and more and more and more insane. You start at the casinos, but then you get involved with the mob. Yeah. You know, another brilliant, you know, brilliant decision. Okay. So, you get invol involved with the mob. How much do you owe the mob? It was because I needed action every day of the week to distract myself from feeling uncomfortable.

9:43 So, like I couldn't wait to go gamble. I needed something. What am I going to do Monday through Friday? Yeah. So it came about that I could through a bar I could start sports betting every day of the week and I was given a a no limit bet. So like I could bet as much as I wanted as often as I wanted. In six months, I was broke, like lost everything. And in that last week, I was down 20,000. And I didn't have it. Now, you would think, all right, it's time to walk away, Clark. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I am going to get that 20,000 back if I can, plus some. So, I I called the the number that I called to place my bets and I said, "Hey, I got to move some money around.

10:40 Uh, can you let me carry that 20,000 over for another week?" And they're like, "For you, anything." I'm like, "Okay." So, I go into that next week, 20 in the hole, and I'm like, I got to get that 20 back. Plus, I want to keep gambling, so I need I need to win on top. So, I just start making really stupid bets. And when the week ended, I was 77,000 in the hole to the mob. So, when you were gambling in casinos, you were making money. Yeah. How much were you making? Oh, hundreds. I I mean, my largest win was 153,000.

11:20 Oh my gosh. And that was after losing three times on the craps table where I had 20 to 30,000 at a clip up there. Wow. So I I was well over a quarter million just for that one time. But I mean 50,000 70,000. My host put me into a uh blackjack tournament for 75,000 winner take all. And he's like I think you got this, bro. your your your luck is unbelievable. I didn't win I got knocked out about halfway through it, but I went to a high stakes blackjack table and I won 80,000. So like I won more than what the what the the prize was.

12:03 So then you were like, "Okay, I'm going to do this with the mob and then you're down 77,000 and now the mob is trying to kill you." The mob is threatening me, threatening my life. The mob is telling me the best thing I could do for myself is to go rob a bank. The guy's like, "Look, if you get caught, you're looking at 5 to 10 years. You'd be a hell of a lot better off doing 5 to 10 years than what we're going to do to you." And they're calling me every day. And this was like a constant, "Dude, you got to go rob a bank." Like, what are you waiting on? Go rob a bank. Maybe you'll get away with it. You can give us money and hold us off. You get caught. You go do 5, 10 years. What's the big deal? You know, that was what they were constantly on.

12:49 Did you ever consider robbing a bank? No. Oh. And then they started they called my family. They got my father's phone number and they said, "Uh, hey old man, you want to save your son's life? You better pony up some money for him." I had already gone to my family to warn them. And uh sure enough, they called my father. Then they called my brother who I used to be in business with. And uh they're like, "Uh, your brother's in a lot of trouble. You have the power to save your brother's life. You can do that by paying us what he owes us." And I had told everybody to tell them like, "This is Clark's responsibility. He'll handle it with you." And that's what they both said.

13:39 But they it scared everybody uh to death. Were you not scared? Oh, yeah. It was the worst time of my life. Okay. It was horrible. Um, I had a shotgun in my truck loaded that I drove around with. I had a baseball bat in my office. Um, I was constantly on edge. Like just to leave the house in the morning, I got to go to all the windows of the house and look out in the yard behind the shed, see if anybody's out there, you know. Uh the same thing leaving my office like I've got to like survey every I was just hypervigilant that's what they call it and I was hyper vigilant to the max.

14:24 So the mob is as scary as they're depicted in movies and books like they're intense. Yeah. It was it was just angry threatening phone calls almost on a daily basis. And I wasn't trying to like get out of I wasn't trying to weasel out. Yeah. But I told them the only way I could make good on this is to set up a payment plan. And what I really could afford was $500 a month at the time because I had, you know, I had a lot of uh debts to casinos, you know, like uh casinos would all let me have, you know, markers, $20,000 markers in them all. So I had all these markers I owed and credit cards were maxed out.

15:06 So like I'm trying to juggle everybody. So I I told the guy, you know, like I can do 500 a month. And the guide went absolutely bananas. And he's like, $500 a month doesn't even cover the juice on $77,000. Like you're out of your mind, bro. So uh it was it was uh it was a horrible time. And then and then I get a phone call after months of this and it's them and they don't ask for money. They just say you're a dead man and click and hang up. And then uh a couple months goes by after that where I'm completely like on edge like can't sleep. You know, you're always listening for every little sound. like is that somebody out there?

16:03 And uh I get a call. At this point in time, we had two tire automotive centers. I had one and my brother had one and I happened to be at my brother's store one day and his office manager came in the back room and said, "Hey, there's a phone call for you." I'm like, "Who the hell's calling me over here? Nobody knows I'm here." He goes, "I don't know. They asked for Clark." So, I answered a phone and uh the guy introduces himself as a special agent with the FBI. I need to meet you at your Newton location, the store I had on Thursday at 3:00.

16:44 And I'm like I'm like, "Well, bro, like you got to tell me what this is about." He's like, "No, I don't." He goes, "I'll see you Thursday at 3:00." And he hangs up. And then your mind just goes like in a million directions, you know, like I I couldn't fathom what the FBI is coming to meet me for, you know, like I I was I was doing some now and then and I'm like, is the FBI going to try to try to pinch my dealer by by by put pressureing me? Like I'm buying a grandma. Like the FBI is getting in involved on a grandma. So, I had no idea what it was. And then they came, the guy came to the store and clearly it was an FBI guy and said they had an informant inside, one of the major crime families who told them a hit had been put out on my life for my gambling debt.

17:44 And uh if I didn't think it was real before then, that really that really made everything real. But you still didn't snitch. You didn't cooperate with the FBI. You're like, "Well, I No, they wanted me to wear a wire." And I was like, "Are you out of your mind?" Like, like, "My life is hell right now. You You want me to wear a wire and make it even worse?" I go, and I told the FBI guy what I told the mob guy. I go, "This is my problem, and I'm not running from it, and I'm going to deal with it." And the guy, the FBI guy said, "Well, that's very noble of you, but if things get too heavy for you, here's my card. You can call me."

18:25 Wait, what did the FBI guy offered you at first? He said, "Wear a wire and we will help you or Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, yeah, like we'll solve your problem by taking these guys down." And I'm like, "No, this is my problem and I'm not going to compound it by wearing a wire." Wow. Is it because that you scared that wearing a wire is more dangerous than That's just not the type of person I was, you know, like it's not it wasn't in my DNA to become a little weasel snitch wearing a wire. Like interesting. Like no, it's not who I am.

19:01 Wow. Wow. It's all in the book. But if you cuz I know the FBI, Homeland Security, and IRS Criminal Division reach out. If you had to rank them in intensity, who was the scariest agency because it's a lot of experience, but division of Homeland Security, I'd say, is at the bottom. Yeah, that makes sense. Boy, the IR the IRS did a full audit on me. They thought I was mon moneyaundering cuz I was putting in all this cash from the gambling winnings into my bank account. That That was a nightmare doing that. You didn't just tell them you're that good. They're like, "No, we don't."

19:39 Well, that's, you know, that's what I, you know, I eventually got to that point with them, you know, but there's laws for trying to skirt the $10,000 notification rule, you know, dummy me. Like somebody said, "Oh, if you put in under $10,000 deposit, it doesn't get get recorded or notified." So, I'm like, "Oh, cool." So 9800 9700 9600 9700 9800 9200 9400 9800 like non-stop and then that sets off all the red flags and uh so yeah that was a nightmare too. So IRS or FBI who's scarier? Uh I I think when you're told a hit's been put out on your life and a confidential informant that's the top of the list. Yeah, that's like in your 30s. But it does seem like after everything that Dennis did, there were signs in your childhood where a lot of psychiatrists later say it seemed like you're crying for help, like trying to get help in a way.

20:45 Playing with fire. Is that one of them? Yeah, I was a little I became a little fire bug. What is it about fire? Cuz I I see that a lot in a lot of cases. Yeah, I think it has to do uh with control and it's an outlet for uh anger from what happened. So, you're just like lighting matches. Are you lighting things on fire? Yeah, I I lit our house or we had this screened in uh patio bar area out back and I lit the corner of that on fire and like guys happened to show up that were going to be painting the house and like the the screened in porch things on fire like it had been smoldering overnight and caught on fire when they got there and you know we had a huge backyard and ra the leaves into a pile uh where the swing set was and you'd swing off into the leaves. Well, I just took a can of gas all over the leaves and set it on fire and this big fire exploded. And these are big fires.

21:56 Okay. So, yeah. And then and then another another sign of uh abuse is uh shoplifting. And I got caught shoplifting. And uh it's the same thing. It's uh it's an out outlet for anger uh and pain. It's a control issue. You know, you're you're um yeah, so those were signs and and and I started smoking pot like right after the abuse, you know, 12 years old, started smoking pot, drank heavily in high school, uh got suspended for coming in drunk. uh got caught on a class trip to the Jersey Shore drinking on a bench with two other buddies and the the chaperone teachers come up behind us and like seriously seriously guys. Um my my principal threatened me that I wouldn't graduate with the class if if at the prom he even had the hint of alcohol on my breath. Did you ever feel frustrated that these teachers are saying these things to you but they don't they don't like recognize what is underlying underneath that

23:09 behavior? Was there any sort of frustration or anger towards them? Uh no no I'm I'm you know there was there was a thing with the uh essay I wrote um which is unbelievable. Uh, I would I would hope that times have changed. Um, and you know, your audience, you know, in the book they'll they'll see this essay I wrote and I I put a lot of stuff in there in this essay that was it just screams I've been abused, you know, like I need help and I've been abused and uh the teacher gave me an A and said use more paragraphs next time. So like if if you see a sudden change in behavior in in a younger person, there's there's a reason why, you know, like shoplifting fire weed drinking getting suspended, getting detentions, getting caught on class trips, getting threatened by the principal, like the writing this essay that screamed, "I need help." And I don't know if it was a sign of the times.

24:27 Um, but it was all right there and uh, you know, nobody picked up on it. What's interesting about your case is that cuz I know there's a lot of cases where maybe victims family and parents are not as involved in their lives and they might be missing a lot of the larger signs, but it seems like your dad was picking up on these signs and he asked you multiple times. Yeah. And you never told him what happened. And and that really like, you know, I've been asked, you know, if I have regrets in life, you know, like, do I regret owing 77,000 to the mob? Do I regret doing drugs? Do I regret, you know, like really the only and it's tough to have this regret, but I do have this regret, you know, like being a young boy and lying to my father when he asked me if Dennis Peg ever touched me. And I just couldn't. The shame is the shame is there and the pain is there and my parents viewed me as the golden child for surviving this

25:36 operation and I just didn't want to become now the abused son who's tortured inside mentally, you know. So, I just told my dad, "No, he never touched me." Around the time that your dad starts asking you if Dennis Peg ever touched you, there was there were some other kids that were talking about it. Yeah, that's how it came out. And nothing happened. All right. Now, now just picture this. You have a 260 pound hulking lieutenant at the jail who's waiting out in the parking lot for young male inmates to get released so he can take them home to his house to mentor them. I'm a mentor. I'm going to give you a safe environment. you come live with me, we'll get you back on your feet.

26:28 In the middle of the night, he would pounce on these young male inmates. Some ran away, some didn't. Some probably froze like I froze, but they would the ones that ran away in the middle of the night in Still at night. store is just like a little tiny rural town and they would hitchhike and when they would get picked up they would tell the people like I just got out of jail and this guy told me he would give me a safe place to stay to get my feet back on the ground and in the middle of the night he's in my bed trying to do stuff with me and it spread like wildfire around Stillwater and that's where My father sat me down, said, "Did Dennis ever touch you?" The first time he sat me down was probably a a year after the So, I was probably 13.

27:25 The second time was when a waitress in a uh uh doughnut shop told my father over a cup of coffee that her son, who was a classmate of mine, same grade from Stillwater in the Boy Scouts, had been by Dennis. And my father came home after she said that and he this time he said, "Before you answer me, I just want you to know you'll never have to go to the cops. You'll never have to testify in court. I'll take care of Dennis myself." Did he ever touch you? So is is my father saying, "I'll kill Dennis." That's how I took it. And that's way too much weight to put your teenage son under. Like as tempting as it was, like I I I was tortured over that for a long time. Like, man, do I tell him? Do I tell him? Do I tell him?

28:27 I want Dennis dead. Yeah, dad could kill him. Dad could kill him. But then what if it goes wrong? What if dad gets killed in the in the attack? Then then it's my fault for telling him. What if dad goes to prison for the rest of his life and I'm without a father? That's on me because I told him. So now I can't tell him. Now I can't and I didn't tell him. Do you think your dad would have? Yeah, cuz there's uh something later on the book my dad told me on his deathbed and uh that just confirmed that he would have done it.

29:10 How do you feel that it was you that killed Dennis rather than your dad? Yeah. Nobody's ever asked me that. Um, I I feel better that it was me instead of my dad cuz sending somebody else to do your work to like look if I did it and I was either on a suicide mission, I was either going to commit suicide after or I was going to do life in prison. That's on me. I don't want to be responsible for sending somebody else to do life in prison to get mortally wounded maybe or to commit suicide after they do it. I don't want that that on my shoulders.

30:10 It seems by all accounts you were a very smart kid and you end up at Northeastern. Yeah. And I never applied myself in high school. Like after the abuse, I just every everything was lacking, you know, another sign, you know, but I was really smart and I could do no work at BC's. Somehow I got into Nor Eastern. They they weren't as strict back then as they are now. Like now it's like ub uber tough to get in, you know. Uh but I got in and uh became a excellent student and I gradu graduated cumloud. And there is someone that you meet at Nor Eastern that's featured in your book.

30:52 Yeah. Yeah. I I you know, Dennis Peg did a lot of things that derailed a lot in my life. And one of the things he derailed was me being able to be intimate with a partner. And by intimate I mean like open, you know, like is one thing, intimacy is a completely different thing. And uh I met this girl Lisa and she was so bubbly and outgoing and she approached me. I was I was just studying by myself and she came over and pllopped down and just she was a whirlwind in my life and she saw signs though even back then like she would say to me we would be laying together in bed and I would I would have like soldiers come back from war and have a thousand mile stare. I had that stare and she'd be like, "Hello, hello." And she'd be like like in front of my face and I'm still just like like I wouldn't even acknowledge it.

32:04 And then she'd hit me and I'd be like, "What?" She's like, "Where are you in your mind right now?" Like Mhm. you are not present with me. I'm like, "I have no idea what you're talking about." You know, like played it off that she was nuts. Um, you know, the the trauma of this abuse was still really fresh and raw and uh I would get lost in thought about it. And we had an amazing connection, amazing love between us. I could tell her I loved her and I did. Uh we had passion and we dated for 6 years and she was ready to like start our lives together, get married, careers, family, whatever it would entail.

33:03 And I couldn't do that. Like did you ever think about telling her or No. Why? For a similar reason to my parents. I didn't want to go from the cool, sexy, party animal, funloving boyfriend to the wounded, broken wing duckling. So you guys break up. We break up. Do you feel like she was I mean do you believe in soulmates? Is that a crazy question to ask someone your age or is that Yeah, I I do. Do you think that she was yours? Yeah. How long after college do you guys break up? Um I was a year ahead of her. Mhm. So I graduated and then she graduated a year behind and then like another year after that um is when she's like, you know, what are we doing here? You know, I was I was just jerking her around at that time. And uh she's like, you know, you she was living in the city. I was living in Jersey. I would go in for a weekend. We'd have an amazing time, but then I'd disappear for a month or two,

34:34 and then show back up, have an amazing time, disappear again. And she's like, "Every time you disappear, you're breaking my heart. Like, what are you doing?" And uh I just uh she's like, "Are we going to get our act together and get going on life together or or not?" And I go, "I can't do that." Like everything is is subconscious with it with abuse. It was just like the thought of getting married, being tied down scares me to death. It makes me feel really uncomfortable cuz being tied down and scared to death is how I was in that guy's house and I'm feeling trapped and I felt trapped in that house. So, just that trapped feeling. I can't feel trapped. I don't want to feel trapped. Don't make me feel trapped. I'm going to run. If you make me feel trapped, you're making me feel trapped. I got to go. Sorry. And that's how it was. And that's how it was with careers, you know? Like in my 20s,

35:41 it was like two to three years in a career and that was it. Like I'm I'm getting really uncomfortable feeling. I'm feeling trapped. I'm feeling like like just a lot of pressure. I'm just feeling like I'm I'm just like getting pushed down into the ground. I got to run. I got to go. I was a prey caught in his snare. He had me trapped for years and I just never wanted to feel that feeling again. Just a interesting observation. You don't have to comment, but it's interesting cuz you feel that way with relationships and careers, but in your book, you don't use this terminology for your careers, but you do with Lisa. You have this tendency to write post Lisa when describing certain events that happened after the breakup. It's very interesting. Back in college, myself and my two roommates and Lisa and her two roommates, we all dated. So, the six of us were always together. Two of the couples didn't make it. Lisa and I

36:58 being one, but one of the couples did. They got married. After college, you guys break up. You're in the FBI's calling you. The mob is after you. Everything is kind of everywhere. And then you killed Dennis Peg. Yeah. Like in your darkest time, you never thought like maybe I should reach out to her. Constantly over o over the decades. Constantly. What stopped you? Just the way I was living, the the the shape I was in, the shape my life was in. Like I had so many grandiose fantasies about finding Lisa and sweeping her off her feet and riding off into the sunset and but I've got the mob wanting to kill me.

37:49 Like I'm really going to bring her into that. I'm going to go find her, sweep her off her feet, ride off into the sunset, but I'm addicted to drugs and alcohol. Really? I'm going to bring her into that. So you don't So there was never a good time. I talked myself out of it. I would talk myself into it and then I talk myself out of it. So you don't not reach out because of you. You don't not reach out for her. Like you don't want to bring her into these things. So yeah. I like I don't want to hurt her all over again. Like I knew I hurt her back in the day and I cared so much for her. I didn't want to do that again.

38:31 Like my life, my life from the abuse to the murder, it was it was tumultuous to say the least. Like I was I was off wandering in the desert for 30 years like just going down one bad path after another and I couldn't bring her into that. So now you're in jail. You're facing life in prison after the killing. You're withdrawing from drugs. You have a hole in your hand. I mean, what what are your options to plead insanity? Like, do you have any options at this point? What's going on in your mind the first night in jail?

39:09 Well, they put me in the cell, which is exactly where I needed to be. Dude, the lights turn off in there. No, I feel like that makes things worse. No. Okay. you know, they the camera's in there and you know, uh it's on you and uh uh yeah, it was hell. I think what's interesting is I was reading through all of like the psychiatric reports that were done when you were in jail. Did you feel like a lab rat? It seems like there's so much debate about your state of mind. Do you feel like you're just being poked and prodded at? And yeah, like th those psych exams were like nerve-wracking, you know, it was, you know, cuz you some of the stuff they had you do was just, you know, they would show you pictures and try to get you to describe the scenario, the scene.

40:02 Scene. Yeah, it's very interesting. And you know, and then like I had to do the uh the roar shack test, the ink blotss. Yeah. Like and you got to come up with what it looks like and it's just uh oh my god. And I thought like one wrong answer like they would like he cannot get out for the rest of his life. Boom. you know, like I just thought uh like I was and the pressure you put yourself under to try to answer things, right? That just makes it worse because then you get you're like and like and and like 500 multiple choice tests like boom you take this 500 multiple choice test like and they ask you the same question in that multiple choice test four different ways seeing if you like they'll reward it but it's the same question to see if you answer differently. You know it seems like you were honest. I don't know. This is one. So, you were shown a picture that is not provided, but you say that it appears to be a man

41:08 who's pulling away. She's trying to hold him and talk to him. Maybe he drinks too much and has anger problems. So, it feels like you took these tests very seriously. Like, it doesn't seem like you were trying to answer how they wanted. Almost almost feels like I'm talking about Lisa and I. Yeah. Yeah. When you get to prison eventually, you have to carry around a file so that if someone accuses you of being a ped, prisoners will show their file. Were there a lot of pedophiles getting beaten up in prison? There's a lot of fights, but it wasn't necessarily the pedophiles getting beaten up.

41:53 Believe it or not, the prison likes the pedophiles because they're the snitches. So like they use them that's so interesting to to be snitches. So like they, you know, like they hate what they did, but they use that against them to get info out of them. So, um, on the unit I was on, I was told by my, uh, therapist, uh, that two out of three, I I was told one out of three, closer to two out of three guys on my unit was there for a crime, mostly involving children. I was like, are you kidding me? And I'm likeay and uh and I and then you know I was you know one of the guards told me like oh yeah they're they're our snitches for us you know like they give us all all the dirt on guys.

42:54 If you hear about a pad that gets beaten up in jail. Did you feel anything where you're just like well in the county jail? Mhm. The tier I was on was not supposed to have any. And yet somehow I was told by by paperwork getting mixed up, they kept putting ped files on my tier in the county jail. And the guards in the county jail hated the pedals. The pedophiles in prison, they they use them. In the county jail, they hated them. And they would come up to me and be like, "That guy just came on. He's a kitty toucher." So like they would be like egging me on to like do something.

43:44 But that would have made your life exponentially harder as well. Yeah. and and I I was cognizant of like what will that look like to go to trial, to go to sentencing and all I've been doing my whole time here is beating up pedophiles like yeah, how how could they possibly release me then? Mhm. But I would tell them, myself and another guy would go sit down with them and I did this a couple times early on and then I just let two other guys and we would just say, "Look, man." Uh, we got word that you're a kitty toucher.

44:28 They, you know what they call them in there? I don't even know if I put it in the book. Um, I don't think so. Tree jumper. Why think think of the the guy with an overcoat on hiding behind a tree and then a little kid walks by and they jump out and open their overcoat. Tree jumper. So like that's what they're called here. Like out out west in California they call them chomos. Oh child molester chomos they call them. But here here in Jersey, New York they're tree jumpers. And uh sort of you know the guards would either say kitty toucher or that's a tree jumper. And uh we would just be like uh sit down with them at a table and be like look bro uh we're told you're a tree jumper and uh you got to go. You got to hit the button. You could go over there's a button by the door and you press the button and the guards would be like what do you want? And you say I want to check in.

45:32 Means protective custody. Oh. Um, so I did that a couple times. I'm like, look, if we're wrong, I apologize, but it's not safe for you to stay here because that's the word now. And somebody's going to come after you. And and they'd be like, you know, they'd be like, it's not me, man. I'm not here for that. I'm not here for that. And we'd get up and be like, sorry, bro. And uh we'd walk away. And within a minute they'd go over to the button and be like, "I need protective custody." So you never wanted to maybe punch one.

46:13 No. No. Like I just I like I I wasn't there like if and I I I I've said this like if I got a life sentence maybe then all bets were off, right? you know, but I I wasn't. And my therapist told me about how many were on my unit cuz she didn't want me to do anything stupid. She goes, "Don't tell the guys on your unit what you're here for." Yeah. Because it's called putting a battery pack on your back and amping you up. So she go like, "If if if the guys know what you're here for, they're going to put a battery pack on your back and try to get you amped up to go do something stupid." I go, "Nobody's going to make me do anything I don't want to do." I go, "They're not putting any battery pack on my I go." And and and in the psych exam, you know, they asked me that like, "How do we know you're you're not a a risk to harm other people?" And I'm like, "Unless you were the person who abused me, I'm not I'm

47:10 not out to avenge every pedophile out there." I go, "Just the one that abused me." Mhm. So, what was worse, the mice or the cockroaches? O well I was on the top bunk so I didn't have to necessarily deal with the mice. To me the cockroaches were worse cuz they would like fall on you and while you're trying to sleep. Uh wow. Do you want to lay down tonight and have a cockroach fall on you? You scream and like that was in a place called CRF C R AF. And that's uh be when you leave the county jail to go to prison, you have to go to this place to get classified which prisons suit you best.

47:56 And it's they they purposely have it as a hell hole to like frighten you from never wanting to come back into the prison system. And the guards are frightening and the mice are frightening and the cockroaches are frightening and everything's disgusting. in and it's just like you don't want to go back to craft. Craft was hell. I mean, how how is prison in general? But like how bad is bad? I mean, I see people are flushing their heads in toilets for drugs for smoking marijuana. Well, those toilet those toilets are like the airplane toilets, you know?

48:35 It's just like sucks. So, if you want to smoke weed, you put your head in your toilet and blow it and hit the button. You can, you know, you could always tell somebody who's smoking weed in their cell because the button goes, you just hear the suction sound going and going and going and going and going, you know. So, guards are just walking by and they just see cellmates with their heads in the toilets. Well, there's usually only one guard on at a time. There's a guard on on the floor and then there's, you know, like two guards in a bubble.

49:04 Uh, and they they have to do they have to do a walk through like every so often. So, you know, when when they just did their walk through, like, "All right, I got I got two hours now or whatever it is and or an hour till they do another one." So, you can smoke your weed then. Warm weather, vacation plans, backyard barbecues, and endless possibilities, good and bad. You know, summer should be your escape from stress, your time to recharge and make memories. But summer can also be the peak season for life-changing accidents. A pool party at your local community pool can end in a nasty slip or with you face to face with wet concrete. I've been there. I've done that. Music festivals, beach outings, sporting events, even pickle ball.

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50:41 Just click the link in the description below or visit forthepeople.com/rotten. That's fthepeople.com/rotten or click the link in the description below. This is a paid advertisement. You wrote a good chunk of your book in prison, but you used a prison pen. Can you describe what a prison pen is? How they call them security pens, and they're they're these flexible plastic tubes with a little thing of ink in them. It's just, you know, so you can't stab somebody with it, you know, like the there everything in a prison is, can they make a weapon out of this?

51:25 Are there lots of weapons being made? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like uh I I mean, one of the main things they liked where I was at was the uh the tiles in the shower were were coming out, so you could like pop a a tile off and then carve it down into a point, you know. Um, but most the I didn't see any stabbings. It was just fights. It was fist fights. Were you ever involved in any? No. No. That's so interesting how you were able to keep to yourself pretty well. Yeah, I didn't have any fights in the uh county jail. Um, and uh I had I had one incident in uh prison.

52:11 We lined up for the shower and this big guy and he was not mentally all there so which you always have to be cognizant of. He went around everybody to the front of the line and everybody started moaning and for whatever reason they looked at me like say something. So I go up to him and I'm like hey bro we're all waiting in line. You got to you got to wait at the end of the line. I'm next. I go, come on, man. We're all being cool. Just, you know, you can't you can't just cut the line. I'm next. So, now do I want to fight and go to the hole over this guy getting in front of the shower.

52:59 So, I just said whatever, bro. You know, like it wasn't wasn't worth me getting into a fight or going to the hole over a guy cutting in line of the shower who has clearly some form of mental illness. How bad is the hole? What? What? Have you been to the hole? Never been in the hole? No. No. You've heard of the hole? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Does it seem bad? Uh yeah. That was a dumb question. Yeah, that was fair. Like I mean I was in a suicide cell for 4 weeks. That's bad. That's like the hole. You get nothing. You get no book, you know, you get you can't get commissary. Uh it's just misery. You don't get out. Um how long did it actually feel to you?

53:47 The the suicide one the four weeks. Yeah, that was that was long cuz the suicide cell was right next to the intake. So people would be coming in like drugged out off the wall, loud, screaming, wanting to fight the guards. There there was women that were wanting to fight the guards, spitting on them. Uh always commotion. Uh there's other cells there, so you got guys screaming all hours of the night. Um, it's cold. It's freezing at times. It was It was just miserable. So, it did not make you less suicidal. It made you more Okay.

54:35 No cells, though. But, you know, but uh it's it's very tough to kill yourself in there. So, um interesting. I was in the right spot as miser miserable as it was cuz early on that's all I could think about. While you're there waiting to figure out what happens, I mean, there's a lot of discourse on whether or not your charge should be dropped to manslaughter, there's a lot of back and forth with the prosecutors, but one of the main things that keeps happening is more victims come forward. Yeah. I mean, is that kind of a weird feeling?

55:07 Because on one hand you're happy your legal case is getting stronger but on the other hand like it must be very depressing to know that there's more like more people more trauma or did you feel in a sense like maybe we can in a sense get through it together? Maybe this is some closure for people. What what was that feeling like? Yeah. Well, I mean early on as a kid you think you're alone. You think you're the only one. Um later on my lawyers like between the state police, the prosecutor's office, my office were taking so many calls about victims. You know, he even said at times it's hard to keep up with. Uh you know that it hurts, but it also helps your case. you know, like it corroborates what you did wasn't just being uh, you know, drunk looking for a thrill kill, you know, like some some idiot said. Um, yeah, it it's it's it's tough to like know that you need other people's pain to come forward to help you, you know?

56:27 But hopefully it would help them to like speak out because that's the only way you can heal is to speak out. You said like some idiot said. I had the article for Okay, I'm going to read snippets of this article, but I do have questions later because and I don't know if we should use his name. I don't even want to give them He's deceased. Yeah. Who? The guy who wrote that. Yeah. Ernest is dead. Really? Yeah. I know. We did share a little chuckle over that one. Yeah. Okay, read away. Wow, that's unbelievable. I'm not supposed to mourn, am I? Wow, you just blew me away with that. Holy smokes, you guys really did your work.

57:14 His article is crazy. Did that? Yeah. And it's a it's a very intense article. And did you I mean I'm curious to know if you read it while you were in jail, but it reads, "Dennis Peg was the kindest, most considerate, and gentlest man to ever have graced the earth." I did read it. You did read it. Yeah. you get the papers uh in there and uh I didn't read it at the time cuz I was in the cell when it was written but uh it was mailed in to me uh then I read it. It is disgusting that certain low lives only now are coming out from under a rock to bismerch the stellar reputation of a man who can no longer defend himself.

58:06 So, a victim is a low life. Did you have any sort of like what was your reaction when you're reading these words? I know it wasn't right away, but it hurt like to be to to see someone speak so highly about a predator like you had everybody heard rumors. This guy had to hear rumors, too. But to discount that and build this guy up as something he wasn't, you can't little boys and do something good and just people focus on the good. No, it you're little boys. Like any good you do is out the window. And yet Ernest wanted to just focus on the good. Wait, did we talk about who wrote this article? Yes, his name is Ernest and he was very friendly with Dennis Peg, very close friends and also his attorney. He also owed Dennis Peg $12,000.

59:17 I mean, the things you can find on the internet are very strange. I don't know. But he he is um since deceased. But I just I just find it like unthinkable because even if I had a friend, but all these victims are coming for there's no way that you can write these types of words. It just doesn't make sense to me. I Yeah. I mean I mean he had to know the rumors and yet you're going to call me a low life coming out from under a rock and and you're going to build Dennis Peg up as this pillar of society like uh I don't know how you do that. Um I I don't know how Dennis how Ernest lived with himself after writing that article.

1:00:02 Most people, they support you, but are there more earnests out there? Like, do you see people writing stuff like this about you? Have people said things like this to you? No. Just the internet trolls. Like when I'll do something, you know, uh, you can't get away from them. Maybe you don't have them, but No, there's an escape. But I'll I'll get a uh you know just uh and and I don't know what joy they get out of it. Uh like cuz cuz when I when I do any type of interview I put my heart and soul in it. Everything can be corroborated. I'm not lying about anything.

1:00:45 People think you're lying. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like this this story is BS. Like what is BS? It's Google my name. like I had to like and early on I would try to interact with the internet trolls just to be like tell and then you they they vanish you don't hear from them so I just gave up trying to uh like why bother but yeah as far as like yes people in my community uh no I don't I don't hear anything from like what Ernest wrote back then I don't I don't see that But it's I mean, okay, I looked up Dennis Peg's obituary.

1:01:28 Oh, isn't that horrific? Yeah. And I I thought surely it's going to be a five sentence ordeal where maybe the family is like, "Okay, he's gone. We're in mourning. He survived by these people." It's like a one and a half, two pages. It's talking about his time in the Boy Scouts extensively. Has anyone in his family reached out to apologize? Has have they have they said anything to you? No. I I've been asked that like cuz people are like, "Did did anybody in the family ever say I'm sorry?" You know, for what happened to you by our brother, by our uncle, by whoever. And uh no, nobody ever reached out.

1:02:13 And they were all interviewed by the prosecutor. Mhm. And not one person made mention of Dennis having a traumatic childhood. It's a it's a falsehood that those abused become abusers. I had a therapist who worked in a uh diagnostic center for pedals. She said 100% coming in the door said I was abused as a child. They would give them all lie detector tests. 75% failed when asked, "Were you abused as a child?" So like they all they all use that to try to garner sympathy for their actions instead of just like saying, "I'm evil."

1:03:01 Yeah. And I do evil things. And so none of his family will really acknowledge it. But wasn't his nephew a victim? Yeah. Yeah. his great nephew uh committed suicide after I was arrested and he shot himself. And uh everybody I know and I know people really close uh to him said what a wonderful kid he was. And yet he took his life uh after my arrest. And they found ual images on Dennis's computer of the nephew. Do you believe that has your arrest like trigger something? Yeah. I mean, just like it opened my brother's Pandora's box, it probably opened uh Dylan's Pandora's box as well.

1:03:58 Ernest writes in the article, "That is the definition of a coward that you guys are only coming out now that Dennis is dead. That's what they all are. Cowards, plain and simple. Do you feel like what you did was cowardly in any way? No. No. I I went there, like I said, basically on a suicide mission. I was ready to give my life that night, you know, like he should have had a handgun 10 different spots in that house. And as soon as I opened that front door, I should have been shot dead. It's interesting because a lot of people say that the worst thing you can do to another person is take away their life.

1:04:42 But is that really true? Cuz it almost makes it seem like then what you did is worse than his crime. Um yeah. I mean, I I've had people say, you know, like, you murdered. And I'm like, yeah, I did. And that's why I'm in the position I am to advise every other victim to not follow my path. I did things wrong. I I led a self-destructive life. I should have healed early on. I should have talked about this early on. And uh that's one of the main reasons for me being here on your program is cuz you have a younger demographic I feel. And uh that's the age uh I want to reach so people can hear from me that what I did didn't heal me. Um it just created more problems, more trauma. I was ready to kill myself. I was ready to do life in prison. And you don't have to forfeit your life because you were abused. You know, you can heal from it. And I'm healing now. And I want people to see that. And I want them to uh to follow my

1:05:56 footsteps now versus how I lived earlier. But do you feel like Dennis also killed something in all of his victims? Oh, of course. I had a uh a former lieutenant of uh a a police department who was a uh professor at Satan Hall and he equated uh childhood abuse to soul murder. You murder the soul of that child. Yeah. And I agreed with him a thousand% on that. There is this interesting moment where Okay. Okay. Well, first of all, your murder charge, first-degree murder charge is brought down to manslaughter. So, at some point, the prosecution, they come around.

1:06:42 Is that took three years? Took three years. I had I had that first-degree murder hanging over my head for three years in the county jail. There is no such thing as a speedy trial when it comes to a murder. and our uh psyche vow from our side uh got delayed and it got presented to the prosecutor uh just before that three, you know, like a couple months before the three-year mark. And in that psych evaluation is everything laid out like the abuse, the murder, it's not like a who done it anymore. And between all the uh victims that came forward and then reading that psych evaluation, they uh the prosecutor offered me a plea deal of seconddegree manslaughter.

1:07:34 And seconddegree manslaughter carries 5 to 10 versus 30 to life for first-degree murder. Okay, that is another thing that was so interesting. I feel like a lot of cases that we work on the psych evaluations from the defense and the prosecution. It's like reading two different books from two different planets. Yours we had difficulty being like wait this is the prosecution's psych evaluation. This is they're identical. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's amazing. Yeah. And and what's really crazy is my defense came out of the prosecutor's uh def psyche vow.

1:08:16 He came out and said, "I feel passion provocation fits Clark perfectly." And he explained why. And passion provocation had never been used 30 plus years after the fact. Passion provocation is the husband comes home and his wife's in bed with the mailman and he freaks out and kills one of them or both. That's passion provocation. This was being used 30 plus years after the initial abuse. And there's four factors to it and he fit me into all four factors in the present day and how it how it fit. So like their their side came up with my defense because we had initially come up with diminished capacity.

1:09:07 There is this interesting thing in the book where they do say the problem though is that you're a decent human being. And so they say that's the problem because now with the manslaughter charge they're saying that you will have trouble living with yourself unless you pay a debt to society. Do you I'm punished. Do you agree with that? Uh um strangely, yeah. Yeah. I I cuz I've said to people, you know, like um you know, like some of some of the trolls, you know, like I'm like I I paid my debt. Like I I did what I was ordered to do.

1:09:55 And it gave me time to think about life, to redirect my life, to think about what I want to do with my life. I needed to be away from drugs and alcohol. I needed to bring healing. I needed to confront my demons. and being locked up even though I was in hell. Prison is hell. I was able to do that. Oh, I'm so sorry. One thing though I will say is I'm going to link it in the description, but you have this insane interview with the prosecutor that was on your case. I thought it was the most You guys have such interesting interactions. I'm like, how do you interact with someone that was trying to at least at some point make you stay in prison for the rest of your life?

1:10:55 Is it like is it a weird dynamic or you guys are just buds? Like what? Um, actually this morning at the hotel before I came here to meet you, guess who I got a text from? The prosecutor saying uh and this is what he said. He goes, "I'm sorry I missed your book signing. I was in the hospital. Um, please save me an autographed book. No, because you have some very interesting friendships. I mean, you're friends with a lot of the officers that arrested you. Yeah. You're friends with the lead prosecutor on your case. Yep.

1:11:36 You're friends with a lot of like the forensic teams that probably processed the crime scene. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. My biggest supporter Yeah. through throughout all of this has been law enforcement. That's fascinating. Yeah. From the from the very get-go. Um starting with Howie Ryan at the uh actually it started on my steps of my house when I was arrested. The guy who gave me that uh state police shirt, he was there. He told his he was supposed to be getting off. He heard my name mentioned and he told his sergeant, "I know that guy.

1:12:20 He's a friend of mine. Let me go to the house in case this goes sideways. I want to be able to talk to Clark." And when I was arrested on my front steps, he came up to me and he goes and he said quietly, "Dude, don't say a word." And then it went to Howie Ryan at the state police station. And then in the county jail, I thought because Dennis Peg worked there. Yeah. Because we heard the rumors 30 plus years ago about him waiting outside taking inmates home. Nothing ever happened. I thought for sure he was protected. And I thought for sure I'd get the beating of a lifetime in there.

1:13:06 And one by one, guards came into the suicide cell and and said, "Uh um I never worked with the guy. I'm hearing what an animal he was. Just hang in there. Keep your mouth shut. Don't talk to anybody." And that was like guy after guy after guy would tell me that. I mean, that's so rare. I mean, you you usually see a lot of stories of, I guess, the blue wall of cops protecting cops. So, this That's what I thought it was going to happen. Yeah. Wow. So, you walk into the courtroom to give your statement. What What is that like?

1:13:47 Uh, that was torturous. you know, like I can sit here with you now and and talk and and people will comment on, you know, a few other podcasts I've done like, "Oh, I don't know how you can talk so easily about such trauma." Well, you want to see my first speech, go, you know, look at my courtroom speech on YouTube. It's uh it's horrific. It's it's I I'm shrinking down, trying to make myself so small. I'm just wanting to hide. I can't get words out. I'm like stuttering. I'm breaking down crying. Uh sniveling. From the time that I was eight years old until I was 12 years old, I was sexually assaulted and raped by Dennis Peg.

1:14:42 It started out with him wanting to touch my scar that I had from open heart surgery at the age of six. It progressed to wrestling matches and eventually led to him. time Dennis Peg was a sheriff's officer, a scout master of troop number 83 in Stillwater and a close friend of our family. Dennis Peg told me that he had sexual relations with a close family relative and also my childhood friend Jeff Hall. He described those relations in detail and I believed him.

1:15:53 told me that he got drunk and naked with one of my close relatives and with Jeff. He said he had taken pictures of them naked. He showed me Polaroid photographs that he said he had taken of other young boys and men on clothes.

1:16:32 Jeff committed suicide on February 10th, 1983 with a shotgun to his head. I was a junior in high school. My brother Jay and I ran to Jeff's house after his sister Brenda came to our house covered in blood, crying hysterically. I remember standing in the living room of Jeff's house with my brother. We got there before the authorities arrived. I saw a puddle of blood on his bathroom floor.

1:17:24 I will always believe that Jeff killed himself as a result of Dennis Peg's abuse. As an all adult, I visited Jeff's grave at least twice a year. Every Christmas Eve, I went to visit him. Um, but that's how confronting your trauma goes early on. It's tough. It's tough the first couple conversations. People avoid it because they they want to avoid that, but that's how you get past it. Um, so I look at that uh courtroom video as a stepping stone to to being able to sit here with you now and talk, you know, fluently about it. But when you're on your way out of that courtroom, everybody starts clapping.

1:18:18 Yeah, that was pretty amazing. Um, yeah, it wasn't they weren't clapping for me murdering a pedophile. They were they were clapping for me confronting my trauma finally. And uh I actually got a standing ovation, you know, which uh uh which was pretty amazing. And the the you know, the guards that took me back out of the courtroom into the holding cell. Um, they said to me, "Wow, that was a first." And I'm like, "What's that?" They're like, "Never have I seen somebody admit to murdering somebody and get a standing ovation for it." So, I was like, and they're and they're like, "That was some speech you gave. Good job."

1:19:05 Did it make you feel less lonely when people were clapping? Like, what is the feeling? Did you did you feel is that them showing support? Did you feel less lonely? What was the feeling? I think they could all tell how painful it was to get through what I got through. Um, and when it comes to sentencing, I mean, it seems like the judge is in a kind of a tricky situation because it seems like there's a lot of debate about what's justice in your case of okay, well, typically justice looks like x amount of years, but that doesn't really feel right in this case. But was there some sort of concern that if they didn't give you enough time that other people would start going out and taking justice into their own hands? Is that like a huge Well, that was one of the things, yeah, that was mentioned. Um, and my lawyer had me brace myself for the high end of the sentencing, which was 10 years, correct?

1:20:07 Yeah. He he goes he goes, I I really can't see anything less than 8 years. He goes, you know, I I'd be just brace yourself for 8 to 10 years. He had put in a motion to sentence me to 3 to 5 years. if you have never been arrested. Even though I had all those runins with those three letter uh agencies, I was never arrested. And uh he he put in a motion to have me sentenced to a thirdderee crime. And I had enough time in where had the judge gone with that, I I would have been released. But the uh you know so he he goes you know all this motion that I'm putting in is give gives a wider sentencing range and uh the the judge uh you know he he took a lot of deliberation and he said a lot of things that got me like really excited and I I I'm thinking of liberating Mr. Frederick's at this moment and uh I know Mr. Frederick's only did what he did because of what was done to him.

1:21:15 And uh then in the end he uh said I'm I'm not going to go I'm not going to acknowledge you know the motion for thirdderee crime. I am going to sentence you to the minimum 5 years and I apologize for having to send you to prison for a single day. Wow. The judge gives me the minimum and apologizes for giving me the minimum. That's such a weird feeling. I It's the same thing with Howard Ryan apologizing to you. I mean, I'm Yeah, it's kind of I wonder if it's a confusing feeling. Yeah, that's why I say everybody I think everybody in law enforcement like look, you know, a judge isn't supposed to have excommunication, you know, excommunicado uh communications outside of the courtroom with anybody. They're human, you know, so he's going to probably hear rumors about Dennis Peg as well.

1:22:14 Yeah. And uh the prosecutor ran a dual investigation on what I did and what Dennis Peg had been up to for his whole life. And it was obvious what Dennis was doing. Everybody knew. And it it got uncovered. And you know, they don't want to justify what I did. They still wanted to punish me. And I, you know, at the end of the day, I still had to do five years. It's no walk in the park. It's still five years. And uh, but I had like the perfect storm. I'm I'm I'm in a little small town, a little small county with a monster who had a 45-y year reign of terror, who everybody heard something eventually except maybe Ernest Hemshot, who had his ears plugged. Everybody heard something about Dennis Peg and and at the end of the day, I got the minimum. I don't think that's gonna happen to anybody else. It's it's you're not going to get this type of perfect storm if you go do what I did. And that's why and you do not want to try to

1:23:29 heal from abuse in prison. Prison is hell. Um I am the rarity. I was able to do it. I was able to start my healing, you know, getting locked up. But man, don't don't don't don't don't think you're going to follow my footsteps. Start healing now and instead of like following me to prison like I did. Uh, you don't want to do that. What was the first thing you did when you got out of prison? Uh, very first thing, uh, my niece picked me up. I'm very close with my niece Kim and uh she insisted on picking me up and we went right to a diner. Um what' you order?

1:24:09 Oh my god. I had I had eggs, sausage, bacon, pancakes, uh everything, you know, and just uh Wait, do you not get Okay. What was like your prison? Like what do you What do you eat in prison? Uh this is what in prison the food was food was tough. Uh, I ate six nights a week. I had ramen noodles and mackerel with hot sauce and honey. That's an interesting combination. And that was six nights a week. On Sunday nights, they gave you real chicken. They gave you a chicken leg. Um, so I would eat the chicken. Uh, but but the other six nights I had ramen noodles and mackerel.

1:24:51 Wow. So you go to a diner and you order everything. Yeah. Yeah. and and what I you know everything uh from jail to prison is gluten and I didn't I was in agony my whole 5 years like doubled over in pain agonizing pain uh because I had celiac and I didn't know it and and uh I lived on mocks in Tums for 5 years and um so getting out and uh just going to a diner and getting real food um you Uh just that was great. But after you get out, what happens with your brother? Yeah. Nobody wanted me I needed a place to live. And uh my lawyer didn't want me going to my mother's. My mother didn't want me coming to my mother's. My niece, my sister, nobody wanted me going to my mother's because my brother was there.

1:25:50 He got divorced when I was locked up. He lost his business while I was locked up. He lost his 33 acre uh horse farm when I was locked up. And uh nobody wanted me to uh come home cuz he was in such bad shape. But I had it was either that or a uh homeless shelter. So I just said, "Let me just get out of here and we'll figure things out afterwards." So I went home with my brother and mother. You suspect that he was a victim of Dennis Peg. He knows you were, but you guys never even when you get out of prison, you don't talk about it.

1:26:27 No. No. Uh my brother didn't want to confront anything, didn't want to talk about anything. It's quite often the case, you know, like members of family won't talk about what happened. And I thought when I was in prison, sitting in my prison cell, I would have these amazing conversations with my brother when I got out. And then when I got out and the shape he was in, the path he was on, it was it was it was difficult. Did he do you think he felt guilty that he didn't protect you from I'm sure that's part of it also. He he said numerous times, I should have been the one that killed Dennis.

1:27:10 Um he said that over and over to me. Yeah. When did you find him? Um it was uh two years ago this past February. Um he was uh spiraling. He had gotten sober for 9 months, but he was like a dry brush ready to catch fire. He wasn't doing anything spiritually, therapywise. I finally got him to go to the gym, start working out. Um, so he eventually started drinking again. And even on his last day of life, I went to the gym and I said to the gym owner, "Was my brother in today?" He goes, "Yeah." He goes, "Uh, he wasn't feeling that swift, but he was here."

1:28:06 I said, "Okay, that's a good sign." And uh I went home and his truck was in the driveway and I went upstairs and there he was on the kitchen floor and I thought he had killed himself. I thought he had uh shot himself and I started screaming at him, "How could you?" And then I got closer and then there, you know, there was no gunshot wound. And um I called 911 and I started CPR and I did CPR until the uh ambulance got there. Um CPR is exhausting and it was uh it took every ounce of me to keep going uh until they arrived and then they worked on him for an hour, but he was long he was long gone by the time I found him.

1:29:05 Do you think Dennis Peg killed your brother? Yes. Yep. And uh there's been times where I wish I could resurrect Dennis after my brother's death. Why? To do it all over again. My next door neighbor Jeff, who was like a brother to me, put a shotgun in his mouth at age 23 and blew his head off and my brother and I found him in his house. Then, so not only do I find Jeff, then I have to find my brother. And I blame Dennis for both of her deaths.

1:29:57 I do, too. Yeah. So, since prison, since you killed Dennis, you haven't Have you drank? Have you done drugs? Nope. Uh, this uh this past June, I celebrated 13 years sober. Wow. Was it hard? Was The first two years were in in jail. And uh therapists will tell you 18 to 30 months it takes for your brain to rewire itself from the pleasure chemicals of drugs and alcohol. And during those first two years here I'm facing life in prison and I'm saying to myself, I cannot wait to see if I get out from under this life sentence so I can have a glass of red wine and a line of co cuz they went perfect together. And I would say that to guys on the tier that I was friends with. I' be like, "Man, I can't wait to do a line of Coke with a glass of red wine." And then some year, sometime after that second year, it just like it just like like a a light just like hit me like a meteorite came into my being and I was like, "Are you

1:31:14 out of your mind?" Like you can never go back to that. I can never go back to living like the animal I was. like like those that died that night with Dennis living that way and I snapped out of it and that was it. Wow. And no gambling, nothing. No. No. Instead, it seems like you've been very busy um changing laws. What happened in New Jersey? What's going on there? There was advocates working for 15 to 20 years to get a new statute of limitations law. What statute of limitations law allows is for victims of sexual abuse to sue their abuser or the organization that harbored their abuser.

1:32:02 We had the worst law in the country. Our law stated in New Jersey that at age 18, when you officially became an adult, you had 2 years to file a lawsuit. So if you got sexually abused at at 8 10 12 15, you're going to come forward at 18 to file a lawsuit. It basically was a dead law. Like like nobody's going to do that. So our statistics said that people don't talk about their abuse until age 48 to 52 is the norm. So, we championed a law that took the age up to 55. And what was really holding it up is we wanted a 2-year open window where when the law went into effect, a 2-year clock started ticking where anyone, no matter what age, the law went up to 55, but in that two-year window, you could be 85, 75, 65, and come forward and file a lawsuit. And the Catholic Church were the ones fighting that law. At every hearing, their lawyers were there opposing the law, saying it would bankrupt the

1:33:14 Catholic Church. They literally said, "Your sons and daughters parochial school will go out of business if this law is passed." I mean, how do people maintain any court decorum? in that situation. I mean, it makes you want to scream in the courtroom. Yeah, it it was uh ah the Cath the Catholic Church is it really gets me wound up. Uh and it's not to do with your faith. It's to do with the hierarchy and the way it's run and what they've allowed. And they've harbored their priests to keep them from facing justice. and they're sending their lawyers to stop a law to help victims. And yet they come out and say, "We're all for victims." No, you're not.

1:34:04 You're not. And so you spearhead that. What What is it in New Jersey now? The law uh we got it passed finally unanimously. I worked for two years a as an advocate. Goodness. Um I had a lawyer say, "You know, your your story is so over the top. maybe you can use it to sway some of the senators that are holding up the law. And uh that's what we did. We started meeting with senators and uh two years later it went up for vote and it passed unanimously and we went from the worst law in the country to the strongest law. So, you know, victims have up until age 55 to come forward. So, it gives them plenty of time to heal. And that two-year window did happen. it went into effect and uh um you know it's something like if you pull me back when I have a mob hit on me you know that I'm going to work as an advocate and and change laws I'd be like really yeah you think so uh I think you're delusional uh Steph but uh but that's

1:35:09 exactly what happened and myself and every other advocate that worked on that law uh can go to their grave you know like knowing We accomplished something great. Have you been to Dennis Peg's grave? No. Okay. No. I know. Yeah. A couple people who reached out to me and sent me private messages on Facebook saying they visited it. Oh, we had half a mind to go and spit on. They did something a little worse. Oh my god. You're like, they did it. Yeah, they they they got it covered for all of us. And people, you know, everybody's just listening and be like, "Oh, you you're talking bad. You really did that to somebody's." The guy was a monster. He wasn't a human. I've said that over. I can't stress enough.

1:36:06 A literal devil. The devil. This is what more could you stereotype the devil as than what this guy was? Yeah, but there's no salvation for someone like that. You guys know that we have been huge fans of Shopify ever since we opened Grandpa Mingo Studio to sell his limited edition artwork. But now, and this is a secret between you and me and Shopify, we have a special project in the works. And like Grandpa Mango Studio, we couldn't have done it without Shopify. I I think I would have been so overwhelmed. It wasn't even a question if we were going to use Shopify or not for this project. They are the best one-stop commerce platform for your business, big or small, with the world's best converting checkout. Shopify's POSOS, which is their point of sale system. It's like the secret weapon to their stores with in-person checkout. I mean, you can start selling in no time with reliable hardware that's ready to

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1:37:46 Go to shopify.com/rotten. Shopify.com/rotten. You did something interesting in prison. Where are you going with this stuff? I don't even know. You helped someone write a love letter. I helped a Spanish guy who was facing 10 years and he had an English girlfriend and he did not have command of the English language and he asked me would I write a love letter to his girlfriend about you know how much he loved her and please wait for him and he'll be back. Did it work? Uh, I don't know. He got shipped off to prison and that's the last I ever saw of him. So, I don't In my mind, it works.

1:38:38 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, no. I I wrote letters for guys to their lawyers, to their public defenders, to the judge, and to their family members, you know. Uh, I felt I needed to do stuff for other people to make myself feel better in that situation. just like I I needed to do good things cuz I was in such a dark spot when I was locked up. So I I constantly did that. So you never wrote a letter to like a college sweetheart? Nope. Did you think about it? Um I did and I thought I'll never get to see Lisa again. I'll never get that chance, you know, to ride off into the sunset, swoop her up off her feet.

1:39:26 Especially early on when I was facing life for those three years, and then I never heard from her and I'm like, "All right, well, that's that." I mean, how often did you think about your college sweetheart? I thought about her my whole life. Like, she was inside my skull scratching. like literally like tormenting me. Clarky, why clarky? Why? Why could you not commit to me? And uh just the shame of that, you know, like victims love to just shame themselves. So that would add shame to my shame. And then doing drugs would add shame to my shame. And and getting involved with the mob would add shame to my shame. And not being able to tell my father would add shame to my sh. It's like we're just constantly shaming ourselves and uh so Lisa was just another source of uh shame and uh so no I never uh I thought I thought I missed my uh chance and after that law passed that the law took up a lot of time I'm working I was

1:40:35 working full-time I was speaking you know I started motivational speaking and then when the law passed I'm like what now and I I was working as a chef, assistant chef at a busy restaurant. I'm driving home late at night one night and I'm like, I either want to get a pitbull or a girlfriend. Wait, this is a crazy multiple choice. So, pit bull, girlfriend, pit bull, girlfriend. And uh I'm like, it's not fair to any girl I get involved with if I'm still thinking about Lisa. So, you never stop thinking about Lisa. I never did. And I'm like, to get into a new relationship, to get into any relationship, I've got to I've got to confront Lisa.

1:41:32 I found her on Facebook and I drafted up a long Facebook message and I deleted it and I drafted up another message and my thumb hung over the send button and I debated is it better to keep the fantasy maybe I'm just making it up in my mind how amazing our love was and how passionate we were for each other. Maybe like time has made me delusional and it wasn't really all it all I think it is cuz you hadn't seen her since you were 20. I was probably 23 and she was 22. And how old were you at this point? When I got released I'm 50 years old and then I worked on the law for a couple years.

1:42:20 So now I'm like 52 53. Wow. Okay. And now you're like I don't know. But you send it, right? So, do you do you keep the fantasy alive and not send it or you pull up your big boy pants and say, "Let's see what the hell's going to happen here." And you send it. You got to send it, Steph. You You You got to take chances. So, I sent it out. Yeah. And I was literally like a crackhead waiting for his dealer to call him back. Like, I checked my phone. Check my phone. I'm at work. I had to check my phone a hundred times. Oh my gosh.

1:42:55 And I'm like, knew I shouldn't have sent it. Mhm. And then she replied and then I replied and then she replied and I replied and she replied. Was it awkward? Was it No, it instantly started to flow. She thought I couldn't commit to her all those years ago because I didn't love her. And that wasn't the case. I explained that to her and I explained it was because of all the pain I was harboring inside and I just couldn't be intimate with somebody. Yeah. And has she heard about what happened at all? Yeah, like I said, uh my one roommate and her one roommate ended up married.

1:43:36 Oh yeah. And her roommate reached out to her and filled her in. She had written me three letters, I believe, when I was locked up. And she ended up uh ripping them up because she just wasn't ready to open that door again. She just couldn't let herself feel vulnerable at that moment. Yeah. Now that I was released, she allowed herself to be vulnerable and opened up. And I said, "Why don't we meet for coffee?" She was in New York. I was in New Jersey. Again, she's still thinking I didn't love her. I'm telling her I did. She's not really believing me. So, I brought ammunition with me to that first coffee meeting to prove to her that I did in fact love her.

1:44:30 What was that? She had written me a lot of love letters and cards back in the day and I had saved them. And over the years, whenever I would start lamenting her, I would get out these love letters and reread them and feel connected. Whenever I would feel a a gap between us forming, I would get her love letters out and reread them and get that bond back together. and I brought a briefcase with me to the uh to the coffee shop and she said, "Do you always bring a briefcase with you when you have coffee?" And I said, "Uh, there's something inside there I want you to see that will show you that I loved you."

1:45:28 and I opened it up and I took out all the uh love letters from when she was 21 years old and 20 years old and 22 years old. And uh we sat there rereading them and uh that sort of sealed the deal when I told her this is how I stayed connected with you over those 30 uh plus years. And you didn't really talk to her during those 30 years. No, there was there was not one word. Not nothing between us. You just read these letters. Yeah. Wow. And stayed connected that way with her. Wow. Did it feel weird? I mean, I'm sure you guys look different from when you're 20 or did it feel like nothing changed?

1:46:16 She kept saying to me, "We've led two totally different lives. We're two totally different people. you know, uh, we're not the same we were back then. And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just let's go have a coffee." And, uh, by the end of that coffee, it was it was back on. Okay. So, you have a few letters. You're saying some of them are too risk risque for us to read out loud, right? Um, I don't want to embarrass Lisa, but I think this one from July of 1989. Can you believe that?

1:47:05 1989. Should we bring out the author of this letter? Come on. Come here. Author, please don't read them. First of all, you look phenomen I read about their love story in the book and I'm the number one fan. I call you guys Lark, which is the ship name, which is when you combine Lisa and Clark. Hello Lisa. Okay. I mean, you have to tell me what was your what was it like seeing him at that coffee shop and the brief? What did you think was in the briefcase? I didn't know was in the briefcase. I mean, first of all, seeing him after like three decades.

1:48:13 Mhm. It was unbelievable. The two weeks that we were in communication with each other, it was we were kind of getting to know each other again, but we always would banter back and forth and and tease each other and we always had a very playful relationship. So, it was kind of we got back into that rhythm. Yeah. We actually didn't have a phone conversation until we saw each other. So, it was kind of like we hadn't spoken on the phone yet. Oh my goodness. And we met for coffee and I was so nervous. I remember I was like, "Okay, I don't want to seem too anxious or too interested or or whatever." I didn't know what was going to happen. He had led this crazy life. So, there was a part of me that was a little nervous like who is this person? Is he the same person I remember from college years?

1:49:05 Um, but I just felt this burning desire to explore it and to to see him and I was so impressed with what he was doing with his life from where he was and where he w where he is now that day when we were meeting and all the good things he was doing, helping to change the statute of limitations law in New Jersey, being an advocate, speaking out, um, getting other people to speak out. I was truly inspired by him. So, I was I said I have to at least meet him for coffee. Even if we just have a friendship, like I just felt like this was something I just needed to do at this point in my life.

1:49:45 Did you think about him as often as he thought about you? I probably not. Sorry. I mean, I was so busy living my life, you know. Um I was growing a business. Uh I had children. I was married to somebody else uh for 20 years. Uh the marriage was deteriorating and um but at the same time um I did think about him because I felt like he was that one person. I think everyone has that one person that their first love and that person that there was never any sort of closure with Clark. when the relationship ended, I still loved him and I didn't understand why we didn't work. And the connection was definitely unlike any other connection I had had, even, you know, my marriage.

1:50:41 So, I just felt like I just I had to do it. I just didn't want to spend my life regretting not seeing him, not talking to him. So Stephanie read the book and was telling me about how Clark was saying that you were this force of nature when when you guys first Yes. The first time you guys met it was in the library and then you just plop down and start it was the L center which was the student center at Nor Eastern. So can you tell us your point of view? Uh, so when I when I walked in, I mean, first of all, I was a freshman, he was a sophomore, and I I grew up in a house. I I'm one of three girls. I was the middle daughter, and I was the more of the rebellious person. And my parents were like just always I had all these rules, you know, that I had to follow. And my when I went away to college, it was like I felt like I was just being let out of a cage, you know. My parents were very strict. So I

1:51:44 just felt like when I was when I was in college and that was actually I met Clark I think it was my the first semester that I was there. So it was the fall and I just felt free. Um, and I just walked into the L Center and I saw this young guy sitting and he looked so lonely because he was sitting at like there was like a round table and four chairs and he was like alone except there was just he was in one chair and there were three empty chairs and I was like, "All right, maybe I'll just sit down and say hello." And I just was I just did. And he looked at me and like his eyes, his blue eyes just captivated me immediately. But he was really quiet and I was like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah just talking all about myself and I don't think he really knew what to say and I don't know if he'd ever met anyone quite like me.

1:52:39 So from his little town of Stillwater. Um, so yeah, I was just I just kind of talked talked tal t talk t talk t talk t talk t talk t talk t talk t talk t talk t talk t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t talked, and then I finally paused and said, "And do you ever talk?" He did. So this is so funny cuz in his book he writes that he was just trying to focus on school work and he says like, "No, he looked lonely so I needed to I felt like I needed to to just talk to him and Yeah.

1:53:12 And that was our first meeting. you know, and uh it was it was intense right from the start. I feel like he invited me to a party he was having that weekend uh at his apartment and I got there and I was just looking for him and we shared our first kiss that night. I was 18 actually when we met. So, it was a very long time ago. And uh Nor Eastern was a co-op program, so we were kind of coming and going. There were not cell phones at the time. And so like just connecting and reconnecting with different semesters uh you know was interesting but we always seemed to find each other.

1:53:48 Um so do you guys still have the same dynamic where you're the one that's like talking his ear off or he's now the talker. I don't know if you can sense from the intro. No I I love I absolutely love talking to him. when we reconnected, it was like getting to know him all over again, but he was a different person now. When I mean this was six years ago, but it he was a different person than when I knew him back in college. I mean, he was a free person. Free from prison and also free from, you know, his his secrets.

1:54:26 Yeah. and he had healed and he was evolved and it was like our relationship was a million times better because we were both in a different place in our lives and the timing was right for both of us. You guys have a very um interesting energy. I've never experienced this before where you meet a couple and you feel like you are the side character in a romance novel and you're like, "Oh, I'm just a side character." It's actually not my main love story. You guys have such fascinating and you're getting shy. Are you guys scared? I'm getting shy. You guys are so fascinating. I I'm watching smile. You're smiling more than you.

1:55:14 I think it's cuz um I feel like we have maybe a similar dynamic where I we call it yapping. So I yap to him, not with him. When the cops came to arrest you, they searched your room and they found your love letters. Yeah. Well, when they when they Yeah. come to your house, they like trash it, you know? They they dumped every drawer out, tore the bedding apart, the closet, everything was out. I I had two cedar cabinet desks and you know just everything is dumped out. And my mother went to like try to put everything back together in this room and she came across letters addressed from Lisa and saw the postmark from 1989, 1990, 1991 and she said, "What has Clark held on to these for for so long? These have to be as valuable as gold to him. So, I got to put these in a safe place. So, my mother went through my mess, scooped up my love letters, and held them for me until I got released. And then she's

1:56:28 like, I found these straightening out your room. Why have you kept all these letters? And I'm like, that's how I stayed connected with Lisa, mom, over the over the years. Do you think your mom knew all along? Yeah, I I would I would tell my mom. I would cry to my mom, you know, not not every year. Maybe it would, you know, like maybe after after the mob threatening my life and having the FBI come say there's a hit put on you, maybe I sat with my mom then and said like, "Man, I've really allowed life to get away from me. I wish I wish I had never lost Lisa, you know, and and and cried with her over that." But her and I had talks over the years about Lisa. when Lisa would come and visit um like she would get up early and and go sit on my parents' bed as they're both still in bed, my father and mother, and have these long talks as they're still lying in bed like and they just loved her.

1:57:25 Like, wait, could you read us a snippet of the letter you wrote him? Sure. Have you read this since? Like so when I when he first showed me the letters and I started to read them in the coffee shop, I started hysterically laughing because reading a letter that you wrote 30 years ago at that point in your life where you're just all hormones, you know, you're like 18, 19, just discovering love. So this letter she she got for me. It says, "For yesterday's memories, today's love, and tomorrow's dreams, I love you." Do we know what part you can read?

1:58:09 Yeah. Oh boy. So this was written July 16th 1989. Oh my god. Yeah. And Yeah. I mean, when I when he had these letters, it just I realized that this is true. You just never could believe someone would be thinking about you for 30 years. But when they take your letters out of a briefcase and show them to you, you're like, they really were thinking about me all this time. Like no one holds on to letters for 30 years unless that person really meant something incredibly deep to them. So it made it real for me seeing the letters. So all right, here we go.

1:58:48 Dearest Clark, we've shared so many memories together, both good and not so good ones. Um, I like to remember the good ones because they're the ones that stick out in my mind. The time that we drank wine at Ed Burks was an early memory, but one that for some reason always sticks out in my mind. The next sentence we'll skip. I don't know. All right. I think knowing that you would go to all lengths to satisfy me really intrigued me. All right, that's as risque as we're getting. Oh, I often think about the quiet times we've spent together, just staring into each other's eyes across a dinner table when we were out or when we were in bed together holding each other. I see something so caring and wonderful about the way you look at me that somehow makes me shake during times like that. Nothing needs to be said because I know what you're saying to me with your eyes.

2:00:01 Those romantic times were great, but the wild and crazy times were great as well. Skip the next sentence. Oh my gosh, where am I up to? All you guys are getting lost in the n sentences. All of these times that we've shared have become cherished thoughts that are embedded in my head and my heart. I don't exactly know at what point I actually fell in love with you. I just know that at this point, each day I spend without you is a torment. Every time I get off the phone with you, I feel alone again. I get through each day with the thought that one day soon we will be together and I won't have to ever feel lonely again.

2:00:50 Those are my dreams for our tomorrow. I miss you so much right now that I hurt. I need you, Lisa. So, yeah, that's Yeah. So imagine reading that letter 30 years later and feeling all those emotions that you felt. Yeah. It's was incredible and it's still incredible. And you kept those letters in pristine condition in their envelopes. But this is how we communicated, you know, because we didn't have cell phones. So we wrote I wrote him lots of letters and he kept them all. So what do you guys do now for fun together? take what we really cherish is is Sundays and Monday mornings we have together to have coffee.

2:01:38 It's our it's our time together. Love having coffee together. We just like to explore different places to walk and we take our walks and we cook together which we love to do. Clark's an incredible cook. We like listening to podcasts watching movies. Yes. Do you watch all of his podcasts? I do. I do. And I I do and I I try to give him constructive criticism. I think his platform is so important. No. And I want him to grow and I think he's doing such meaningful work and he continues to inspire me ever since we reconnected. I'm just I tell him he's a constant source of inspiration for me.

2:02:17 Yeah. Lisa made the comment one one time um it doesn't matter what we do as long as we're together. Yeah. So, the day before we flew down to do your show, uh, my mother was in the hospital, so we had to go pick her up from the hospital. It took a while, you know, to get her discharged. Drove her home, got her home, and the same thing we just took her from the hospital for happened again. And we had to turn around and drive her back to the hospital. and we met my sister there and we were there a while and so it was a really long day and then eventually we had to leave my mother there and driving home that night I said to her I go you know you made the comment one time uh it doesn't matter what we're doing as long as we're together so I I hope that holds true for today as well and she's like of course it does yeah so we're a team for Sure. And I think that's when you know you're with the right person cuz it's not it doesn't

2:03:29 feel like a chore to do that. You just want to be there for them. But I is Is your mother okay? She's home now. Uh yeah. Um she's got a uh some medical issues. Uh we got to get straightened out, but she's home right now. And Clark and his sister are such a great team. Like they come together to and they take turns and help. And she's 96, his mom. So, March 31st, she'll be 96. Yeah, she's turning 96 this month. Oh my. Yeah. Is she happy that you two are back together? She's one of my biggest fans. She call She calls me Lisa, my love, just like Clark.

2:04:10 Oh my goodness. I'm so happy you're back in Clark's life. I always knew that you were the one. You were so special. She said, "I'm just so happy that you're here." I feel like moms know. Yeah. Yeah. Stop. Okay. I Lisa, we need a podcast episode on Clark's podcast of you, which I'm going to link in the description along with his book. And I would be obsessed if you guys filmed Tik Toks together. I don't know. I just want to know more about your life. I'm obsessed to the point where I genuinely feel like I'm a side character in a romcom at this point. Like it's you guys have some intense chemistry. I can only imagine those letters.

2:04:53 Yes. Can I ask a final question? Yes. Uh Clark, I know you commented that there are seasons to life. Yes. What would you say what season you're in right now? I would say, you know, and I I tell people this because there's so many times I thought of giving up. Uh, but I always retained a little glimmer of hope and you know, so there's like cold, dark winters where nothing's going right in your life. You got the FBI telling you there's a hit. You've just committed murder. You're a drug addict. You're in prison. Uh, those are all cold, dark winters. You're getting sexually assaulted and animals being beaten in front of you. Cold, dark winter.

2:05:47 And uh I tell people don't ever lose hope that uh sunshine awaits you and opportunity awaits you. And I would say in the spring is when you plant. Um I would say I'm just starting to harvest. So I'm I'm in that spring to summer mode. I'm not in the full fullblown summer of harvesting yet. Uh it's been a long road to get to this point. Uh that book has taken 10 years. I wrote that in prison 10 years ago. Uh so for people that want to lose hope, like my book took 10 years. Like don't lose hope. Opportunity awaits you around the corner. It's not going to be tomorrow sometimes. Uh but it definitely awaits. And uh this book will instill hope in you and and inspiration. That's what I It wasn't written to be a trauma dump. It was written to give people hope that anything is possible. Like I'm living proof that literally anything is possible.

2:06:58 Yeah. And you're reunited with And I get the girl back at the end. Like like it's it should be a movie. Like my life literally has been a movie. Yeah. No, they need a movie. I need a movie. You guys are incredible. Please keep us updated. Not even just us, but like our audience on everything you guys are going to do. All right, Lisa, please. You're going to keep us up. I'm going to start doing some taking some classes about Tik Tok like tomorrow, maybe on the plane home. You never know. And I am going to leave all of the links in the description. Thank you guys for joining.

2:07:34 Thank you so much, Stephanie. Thank you. You guys were amazing. Amazing to us.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Woman Gets FB Message From Old College BF After He Killed His Rapist - This Is Her Response"?

Stephanie (Guest), Clark Fedrics (Guest), Lisa (Guest).

What is "Woman Gets FB Message From Old College BF After He Killed His Rapist - This Is Her Response" about?

The story centers on the unsettling discovery made in Dennis Peg's safety deposit box after his violent death; the box contains a collection of eerie handwritten letters he penned a decade prior. These letters, devoid of significant revelations, hint at a darker past, raising questions about secrecy, guilt, and the hidden narratives people carry throughout their lives.

What is mentioned in this Rotten Mango episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Dennis Peg, Clark Fedrics, Bird After Re, FBI, New Jersey (Jersey), Jeff Hall. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Woman Gets FB Message From Old College BF After He Killed His Rapist - This Is Her Response"?

The episode runs 2 h 8 min; the transcript is about 19,529 words in 148 timestamped sections.

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