Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business - Live Interview with Ed Latimore

What this episode is about

The main topic centers on Ed Latimore's personal journey through struggle, addiction, and discipline, emphasizing that overcoming hardships is essential for success. He highlights the importance of facing challenges head-on, learning from failures, and maintaining a strong sense of purpose, all while reflecting on how his past experiences shaped his resilience and character.

Key takeaways

• Success often demands relentless confrontation with discomfort, not avoidance; there's growth in the struggle against the wall.
• Sobriety isn’t just a personal battle; it thrives on community support and the realization that you matter.
• The hardest weight to lift isn't at the gym, but stepping through the front door and starting anew.
• Building a new identity can liberate you from the past; you can redefine yourself without old vices.
• Life’s surprises often come when we least expect: becoming a parent can be more joyful than we ever imagined.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Ryan Hawk (Host) · 26 min speaking
• Ed Latimore (Guest) · 38 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 1:00:00 – 1:03:46: Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business

Notable quotes from "Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business - Live Interview with Ed Latimore"

• Paraphrasing. It's the Anacarin quote. He goes, All happy families are alike. All unhappy families are unhappy for their own reasons. Right?

  about Anna Karenina · at 3:44

• Love it. Well, the book that everybody in here is going to get, is called Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business. And I know I already worked on it. And, I'm just really grateful.

  about Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business · at 1:02:19

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

Books & papers

• Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business — Book · Primary recommendation · 1 mention · first at 1:02:23
  Ed Latimore's book that attendees will receive, discussed as part of his journey and lessons learned.
• Anna Karenina — Book · Referenced work · 2 mentions
  Referenced in the context of discussing happiness and unhappiness in families, relating to personal struggles.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 How you feel about doing something is irrelevant if it is vital to your success. You got to bump into the wall a bunch of times. A lot of people don't want to bump into that wall. You uh mentioned your sobriety and you said that that's the hardest fight you've ever had. What finally helped you get past that?

0:16 You have an impact on on the world for better or worse. That makes a huge difference in allowing a person to not destroy themselves.

0:24 The heaviest weight of the gym is the front door. How have you become a more disciplined person? First, boxing is really boring. We practice until we can't forget. Either you got it or you'll make a mistake, and you probably won't last to make the mistake more than twice. Most people run from fights. We try and get into it. They introduce hardship strategically and with awareness.

0:46 I've had my ego dragged through the mud a lot. What do you want your obituary to say?

0:50 I didn't just dabble here. Give it up for Ed Latimore. To get us started, man. Um, you've look like looking at all that you've you have lived and live multiple lives, right? And this idea of a boxer, a physics guy, you're into chess, all this different stuff. And you got whole other parts of your story that we're going to get to. I'm just curious if you're younger self looked at your current self, what would surprise them the most,

1:22 you know? Um, not not all of that. I just I'm I don't know, man. I'm fortunate, but I think the thing that would surprise my younger self the most is the the stumbling blocks along the way, particularly the stuff around addiction and alcohol because, you know, my I grew up I grew up next to a to a a crack house. Uh my mom had her alcohol issues. Everyone in my family had their substance abuse issues to to to different degrees. Some got involved in the selling side of it, the using side of it, all there.

2:00 Uh, so I had this like healthy fear Yeah. of a lot of this stuff. So that's why I never tried anything harder. But um, the alcohol stuff that really would surprise younger me because I know how I am thinking about it now and how I looked at it and that I went through that phase in my life be like, "Wow." But uh but on a more positive note, I think the thing that would surprise me or surprise younger me is is how much fun I have being a dad. I I didn't know that like that was a really fun thing, man. And uh cuz cuz you know, my my dad wasn't really around so I didn't really have any any model for that or anything to expect from that. But boy is it is I mean it's exhausting. Um, and there are these like fun moments of frustration.

2:49 That's the best way to describe it. But it's a really good time. That's those are those are the two big things that I think what surprised me, which as I'm saying that has nothing to do with any of that, which is

2:59 I know you you uh mentioned your sobriety and uh we've talked before and you said that that's the hardest fight you've ever had. Um like what like what finally made it stick? What finally helped you get past that? I mean, or I assume it's still an everyday fight.

3:17 Still still a fight. 13 years. 13 or 14. I'm starting to lose track. And that's a good thing.

3:22 That's good. Yeah. Um, what made it so difficult? All right. So, so like you ever hear that quote uh from from um Anna Corinina by Leah Toy Story? He's like, you know, all happy families are are, you know, happy for the same reason. All unhappy families are unhappy for, you know, different reasons. Wait, you're I'm not smart enough. What is this quote again?

3:44 Paraphrasing. It's the the Anacarin quote. He goes, "All happy families are alike. All unhappy families are uh unhappy for their own reasons." Right? And I I start with that to say that everyone has kind of their their own issue or reason for having a substance problem. And you don't need to know that to kick it.

4:10 Yeah. you can figure that out later, which is what happened to me. I just knew things were getting rough. But but as I look back really close and and zero in the big thing that happened is I started to believe people cared about me. I started to believe I mattered. You know, I I I tell this story and then get back to the alcohol thing, but it's key. We had a baby shower for the kid and and uh all these people showed up, all my friends and well, mostly my friends because I don't I'm not really close to my family. And I'm just sitting there like choked up because I'm I've got this issue where I don't think or I didn't think that like my friends were like they didn't really like me. Like I had to prove myself and that's what drives a lot of the things I do. I feel like I got to prove myself for affection and and respect and just people like me. But they showed up. They took their Sundays and brought gifts for this human that

5:02 doesn't even exist yet. All because he's my human. And um so so we'll pause there and and I had to tell them I was like look you know you guys know I have this issue or maybe you don't but for me uh this means so much and I it overwhelmed me. So back to the what helped me get sober when I went away for basic training in June of 2013. came back after basic training AIT in December, went out, tried to party, had a horrible time, and so day December 23rd. And I sat there, I made this list. As I'm making this list, I go, "Okay, I'm in school now. I'm in the army now. And there's the uniform code of military justice on top of civilian justice. Um, I'm trying to make my pro career matter, and I just started this this relationship that's still going on today, right? I don't want to lose any of this." And and it hit me that the thing that made it stick all of that together though, I had spent that 6 months away building an identity

6:07 that was completely free of alcohol. It was the first time I did it in my adult life. And I got to see all these people respect me, look up to me, like me, and there was no alcohol involved.

6:17 And I said, "Okay, I don't need to keep trying to be liked. I can actually be respected." And I think the two things look similar, but they're very different. When people like you, they want to party with you. They want to do things with you. But a lot of times they will uh make you behave in a way that makes you less respectable.

6:36 But when people respect you, maybe you don't get all the invites to the parties, but you start getting invited back to family events, you know, cuz that's when I talk about my family, I'm talking about my friends. And growing up in high school and they invite me around and a little less, a little less, and pretty soon it's like I see the pictures, things are happening, and I'm not there. But it got a lot easier to stick with it when I finally was looked and I said, "Okay, people care if something happens to me. I care if something happens to me."

7:08 Yeah. And uh that self-love, I hate that word, but that's what it is. That self-love uh that makes a huge difference in allowing a person to to to basically not destroy themselves. Um, we talked about ownership and not being a victim earlier today. And if there's anyone who could have chosen to be a victim, I feel like you're you're certainly one of those people who could have made that choice. And you and I have talked about the fact that a judge and a jury does not care about my terrible upbringing if I commit a crime.

7:49 Yeah. I've used that quote a lot uh since you you originally said it to me and I think that is the ultimate example of taking ownership of your life. Can you talk more about this that the world I mean this is harsh but the world doesn't care that you grew up next to a crack house with a mom who suffered from addiction and all these awful things.

8:13 The world doesn't necessarily care if you're going to go choose to harm other people's lives or commit crimes. you're going to jail, right? That's taking ownership when you could have easily chosen just to be a victim and follow in that path and commit crimes and do terrible things. And I I I'd love to hear you talk more about that.

8:31 So that that accountability, it it has to start with recognizing that you have an impact on on the world for better or worse. like like I always say, you know, like like her goal with raising our children is to make sure that they are a net positive. They make things better. But if they can't do that, at the very least, let's make sure they don't mess anything up. No one wants to give birth to a serial killer, right? That's a net negative. No one wants to give birth to a dope dealer. That's a net negative. Okay? When you start looking at your place in the world and you you realize that you are not in a vacuum, everything you do is going to affect someone else for better or worse, then you have to take some responsibility.

9:21 I don't know where I learned this because I know I didn't learn it at home growing up, but it's always stuck with me this perspective that everything I do is going to affect other people. And so I I started to even from a younger age even you know stumbling around I go okay um I can't do that because it will affect someone else negatively and that look that's a great really great start if you do just that you probably going to avoid prison

10:00 like and you take it a step further and you remember that like you got one body and you got one life and how people are looking at what you do um from afar they're going to judge you and they're not just going to judge you now we're getting back to that affecting other people you know they're going to see how other people interact with you as well and and which people decide to interact with you and if you want I don't want to be lonely right if you don't want people to cast you off or to distance themselves you behave in a that makes you a net positive to your surroundings. People like to be around you at the very least. Uh they don't feel like they got to clutch their purse.

10:44 Yeah. Uh you talk a lot about discipline. You write about discipline and how discipline

10:51 is kind of like the way out for you has been the way out. Um what role like how have you become a more disciplined person? What role did that play in helping you get to where you are today?

11:04 Ah, the boxing thing, man. This where it comes from, right? Yeah. And and I don't know if we talked about this before, but I I tell people a lot that So, first we got to go all the way back to high school. I I I was terrible at uh math, like bad. In fact, I I technically technically uh didn't graduate from high school like on paper. I had no faith in my quantitative abilities and you know I I was smart enough to know then that like h you know you can't do anything that is worthwhile to go to school for don't bother with it. Okay. So I start the boxing thing and I was terrible when I first started boxing like like legitimately bad. Um like there was an amateur fight. I I was fighting this guy who was way more skilled than him been doing it for a long time. And I was I had two left feet, no leverage, and was all arm punches. I swung so I swung a few times and I actually fell over and knocked

12:05 myself down. They encountered as a knockdown. Um and then I took the training seriously. Well, I was always taking the training seriously, but but really started to learn, really started to improve. And then I eventually beat that guy and I go on to um I win a state title and then go on to the national golden gloves and then eventually get another I didn't win that tournament but another national tournament. And so all throughout my amateur career I'm watching myself get better at something that I was really bad at. And the only reason I got better at it is I just took this I took accountability. I made the changes when I needed to make the changes. And it was a very disciplined approach.

12:48 And I watched how that made me it like it changed my life like like I'm sitting here with you right now, you know, because of what I was able to do when I fought and then what I was able to do and when I decided to go back to school because remember I was bad at math. I said, "Okay, if I did this with my body, let me do this with my mind." Okay, let's go right back to the basics all the way back to where I didn't learn even learn how to do fractions correctly. Rebuild that foundation. Do that. And I said, "Okay, well, I did this with my body. I did this with uh an abstract skill, math. Can I do this with my writing? Can I do this in every other area of my life?" And and each time it's not like no one says boxing is fun. And it's kind of fun to beat a guy up like kind of but that guy it's not like it's not like he's not trying to beat you up back and he's good at it too. Uh and math is, you know, enjoyable, but it

13:50 it's not very enjoyable when you don't know what you're doing and you you're you're like a fish out of water and these problems are hard and you you've invested this money already, but you got to figure it out. And all of this comes back around to the key idea here that the how you feel about doing something is irrelevant if it is vital to your success. I live by that and it has changed the trajectory of my life. I don't look at things like I do or don't want to do them. I go is this or is this not necessary? And if the answer is yes, then it's got to be done. And and if um if I don't like it, okay, what am I going to do? Complain?

14:32 Well, I mean, there's something something beautiful about the simplicity of that right there. Uh James Clear was here a few years ago and uh I told you this. He he quoted you and it's I've recqued that a thousand times I feel like and it's I think it's about like how hard sometimes it is to do the first thing to get started and that is the quote is the heaviest weight at the gym is the front door. I love to hear what you were thinking when you came up with that. It's beautiful. Um and then what that means to you that the heaviest weight at the gym is the front door.

15:10 So this when I said that that was that was back in the um the 180 character days of Twitter.

15:17 Yeah. And so what what what that did you got to turn your short game your long game, right? Uh I started to think in Twitter.

15:29 It's actually a useful skill. It Well, yeah. Like like you know Twitter is is what it is, right? But one of the things that at least when there was that restriction now they've removed it twice. First taking it to 240 and now you can extend your tweets and then but what it's done is it's um it's removed the need for economy of word choice. So now

15:53 compression of compression of ideas is something you're good at James. A lot of the best thinkers are able to compress these long thesis statements into bumper stickers

16:04 and to the the get to the meat. Exactly. And I think that's a very useful skill.

16:10 And you know the way they they trained a lot of us coming up in school this essay has got to be a minimum like no there should be a maximum there should be a limit

16:18 and then you got to get that idea in there clearly. So, so right. So, what all I'm thinking about is like, okay, but it's hard. You know, zero to one is the hardest part. What's a cool way to say that? Well, there we go. Okay. And just thinking about that, I just I'm I'm looking at at Jimmy Sunny because Jimmy's been been incredible helping me um in my my journey as a now like, you know, well, not yet, but the release date's done. They they sent me my checks as far as I know. Um the the book's the book's going to come out. Um but uh Jimmy was really helpful not just helping me get connected with people and you know talking to me about different marketing aspects of it but but one thing I don't I don't know if I told Jimmy this when I sat down to write the book I didn't really know what I was writing right I knew that they paid me to write a book and if I didn't write that book they were going to take that

17:18 money back. That's what I knew. All right. So, I said, "All right, let's just start writing something." And that's what happened. I I just started to write. Funny story about this kind of a side note. The first book I wrote or three books, the first book I wrote, uh about 45,000 words and and and I remember clearly I said, "This isn't what they want. I don't think they want this kind of book." It was pretty much an autobiography um with some key moments in my early life up to high school or or when I graduated from high school. So I started writing another book. The next book that was a set of themes or you know discipline, motivation, dealing with pain, forgiveness, those kind of things, taking different aspects of my life. And then it was time to submit the manuscript. And I looked and I said, I don't know what they really want here.

18:10 These are two different books. You know what I'll do? I'll combine them. And I did that. And I remember my editor is sending me these praise like, "This is the greatest thing I've ever read." No, he didn't say that, but that's how I heard it. Okay. And I messaging my agent. I'm like, "Yo, is Noah like this all the time or is he just, you know, the is he or is this real?" He goes, "No, I never heard him be so happy. This is great." And then crickets. He got to the second book and I saw the feedback and I realized that I was like, "Oh, wow.

18:48 I wasn't supposed to write that second book." But it's a good thing I amended that first one because he's like, "This is direction, the direction you want to go." But if I had just been sitting there thinking about this the whole time, I wouldn't have anything. I'd have nothing. You got to be willing to correct while you're making. You got a I tell my wife all the time, she's involved in the travel industry and every now and then she'll get a client and it'll be the weirdest problem. It'll, you know, the 10 years doing this. It'll just be a new problem. And when you first start something, you run into these problems on an exponential curve. You just keep hitting them and eventually it goes linear and then it turns logarithmic and you stop bumping into the wall so much. But once you bump into that wall, you know where the new problems are. But you got to bump into the wall a bunch of times. A lot of

19:34 people don't want to bump into that wall. This is where discipline comes in. You got to go, okay, it's going to hurt. Uh, it's going to waste time. I'm going to hate my life, but I will learn something and eventually what I create is going to be be really cool and what I do be cool.

19:51 Well, you uh boxers, not a boxer, I've done it a little bit, but certainly nothing like this, have to live and die by routine. like some there's like wrestlers, boxers, like some of the most routine regimented kind of work ethic type people. You got to be in such impeccable shape. How how have you taken this learning of routine and being regimented and getting after it every day to like everything outside of boxing?

20:21 All right. So, like first boxing is really boring. It's it's boring and it's miserable. I don't know. My my coach and I were talking about this last week. I've always believed this. He's always believed it. But this was the first time the idea was said out loud and we said yes. That there's something wrong with every single person who decides to do this for real. There's got to be. Most people run from fights. We try and get into them. But the way you do that is you just make it. You just practice until you can't forget. Like I think that I think in psychology the term is overarning and they've they've done some research on this that like if you were learning a new set of words in a new language and you you memorize those words and then you go I got them and you chill out and the second person goes I'm going to learn those 10 words and then I'm just going to say them all the time over and

21:16 over and over and over again until they don't sound like you ever say a word so much it doesn't sound like a word anymore. You're like is this real? Okay. Turns out that person in that overarning um situation, their retention is going to be far superior to yours. And that's what we got to do in boxing. We practice until we can't forget even if we wanted to see guys walking around shadow boxing and part of it like obsessive, but the other part is just rehearsal. And when you realize how well it works, because that's a great place to see how well something works. either either you get it or you'll make a mistake and you probably won't last to make the mistake more than twice taking that and uh in parenthood that has been a godsend

22:06 because it feels like groundhog's day man like every day wake up get a snack change of diaper go to the park nap time wake up go to the park get a bedtime, read a story, tuck them in, go to sleep, wake up, then sort of and then just it's just the same thing. And every now and then I look up and I go, "Man, why you had to get so tall?" Right? Like that happened. Um but but I I I know that kind of monotony can really break a person. And it's not just there as too, you know, you you you you get a tolerance for boredom. And we we we're getting away from that because phones,

22:53 it's always something novel to look at, right? I'm reading a book now, real book, pages. Uh and I'm like, "Wow, this is crazy." There's no no flashing notifications or anything that pop up. And I remember this It's like the 90s and it's a good time. But my my point with with with with saying that is that if you routine work, systems work, it's the human that gets bored with them. And if you can be bored, you can go really far because a lot of it is just even at the highest levels from what I've seen with my own eyes in boxing.

23:40 It's just the repetition of really basic things like like super basic. If you look at I don't know if if anyone in here knows any of the guys in the sport, some of these names are bigger or not, but but Terrence Crawford and uh Nawi Inaway and Alexander Usyk. You look at these guys practice and all these guys on YouTube are trying to break these things down and show these crazy fancy things, but but it but we look at them people who know all they do. Their their footwork is just perfect and it's perfect. Not fancy, but these basic things are perfect. And all they've done is just string together these these different aspects of the sport that are boring and basic and they do them so well that they they'll fight unconscious. There's no time to think.

24:32 So, if you can get really comfortable with what it takes to get to attain that level of um I guess muscle memory, then you can do anything because mo like that's the only way to get good at anything is just do it a lot.

24:48 It's like you're unconsciously conscious like you just you get to the point where it just is automatic.

24:55 Yeah. But and that's boring. Yeah. You got to be willing to to do that. There's almost like a love of Pton Manning was famous. He said, "When I don't love taking every rep in practice, I got to stop. I got to stop." Like, so he took every rep. Every single rep in practice. And when that day comes, I I I got to stop. So, I'm going to open up in a second. I'm going to ask one more to give you guys time to think. So, I want you to, you know, be feel free. I know Ed is free.

25:19 Look at you guys. Sorry about that. I I'm facing this way. Uh so one of the things uh my buddy Broo Cups is back there and we talk a lot about body language right and having positive body language and I think boxers have to have this man right you're not going to walk in a ring with bad body language you're going to get killed right and from a leadership perspective I don't think this is a small detail to be like ah yeah I'll worry about that later I think it's something to think about all the time can you can you um like just talk me through whether it's intentional or not, thinking about your positive body language, entering a ring or going for a speaking gig or any anytime really in your life, being a dad, but the importance of having positive body language.

26:06 Yeah. Um I wish I could have remember the research, but I know it exists. That idea that if you smile, you'll feel happy. You don't smile because you're happy. I mean, sometimes you do, right? Yeah.

26:21 But you can also work that system in reverse. You smile, you feel happy. It's like you puff up your chest and and the testosterone flows because you feel like you're stronger.

26:30 Yeah. So, if you can do that with with your body, then you have to remember this. We We make a big I make a big deal. I hope you guys do, too. So, I'll say we we make a big deal about how we talk to ourselves right? But what you're saying is accurate. And a lot of people don't put that much energy and that much effort into how they present themselves physically. Not just in body language, but in grooming, but in style.

26:59 Yeah. Because that is the first way that we um gather information. We see it and then you get the feedback. And if you get great feedback, you it becomes this self-fulfilling loop. You go, "Okay, these people must like how I look. I must be a cool person. Let me act like a cool person. And then they go, he's acting like a cool person. We should He is cool. And then it it bumps up. And that's how we we take advantage of it. I think that's how we should take advantage of it as far as like in in boxing goes, right? You know, you got a bunch of guys uh it's like it's weird, man. You got this posturing that's going on and you guys are about to fight. There's no reason to posture, but we got to do it. is this show and it can make a difference. Mike Tyson talked about this all the time.

27:48 He's got that great monologue where he's like, I'm I'm looking at the guy across from me and I'm looking in his eyes to see I'm waiting for the moment he looks away and that's when I know I got them. Guys are losing the fight before the fight even starts because they're scared and they gave they they they betrayed their own self and the other guys looking to wait to see what happens. So to take and apply this to every other part of life and that fatherhood thing is really key here too. Yeah. I can't act scared because then they think something's wrong and then I start acting like something's wrong because then I trigger the whole fear cascade. I have to remain calm in the face of in the face of a danger. I have to always look for solutions. Even if a situation seems hopeless, because the minute I accept that it's hopeless, I why try.

28:49 I'm not saying there's always going to be a solution, but I have to keep trying. And then remembering that I can't mope around the house because that's bringing me down. I got to move around. You got to lie to yourself. That's pretty much what you got to do. But it's a very useful law because your brain's dumb. As weird as that sounds, brain is stupid. Doesn't really know what's going on. If you're walking around all proud and happy, knowing you you got a big bill due and you don't know how you're gonna make it, your brain's going to go, "Man, we must have figured this thing out."

29:21 Why feel down? Because no matter how bad a situation is, if you let your internal state go to go to heck, um, that doesn't help you solve it.

29:31 You know, you the reality is going to be reality. You can't change reality, but you can change how you you interact with it, how you perceive it. And if you don't take that seriously, a reality will steamroll you in these bad these bad situations that you could potentially have found a way out of. Or you take something that is just this this is the coolest thing with with with babies. Anybody with kids knows this. I learned it kind of the hard way, I guess. Um, but like when he was learning how to walk, he falls. Now you get two responses to this. You freak out and go, "Oh, is the baby going to die?"

30:14 Or you just look at him and go, "Hey, was that fun?" Or start or sometimes you start laughing. He's looking at you going, "It must be funny. Let me laugh, too." It's the same thing. Like it's the same thing with people. And that's what leaders figure out is that when something's going wrong, if if I start acting like it's everybody starts panicking. If I act like it's calm and cool, it's like that scene in the Titanic when the sinking and they just keep playing the music. That's crazy, right? But look, if the maestro is like, "We're going to play some music." Those guys are like, "Guess we're gonna play some music. Maybe this isn't that bad."

30:56 Oh, so good. Let's uh open it up. Who's got a question for Ed? What do you think? Yeah, go ahead, Rob.

31:02 Talked a lot about personal accountability. Who was some uh major influencers in your life, mentors, and what did they do to impact your mindset? So, I didn't have a male that I looked up to until I was 28. 26. 28. 26. I just know the age range because the first person that I really looked up to who really held me accountable was my coach, my professional coach when I switched. And and he made it very clear. He never told me to stop drinking, but he made it very clear. He disapproved of it. He lived life very clean. He well lives. He's still alive. He lives life very cleanly.

31:49 One time he invites me over to his house for his father's birthday. And there's cake and I know Tom doesn't think I should eat sweets when I'm trading, but there's cake and it's in his house. So I have a piece of cake and he loses it and he's like, "What's wrong with you?" like you invited me. It's the cake is here. Like I didn't eat any. Why'd you eat it? That type of accountability. That's the person who who I I look up to. The first the first role model that I really ever had because for whatever reason when when I'm looking at somebody in the media or the TV that just feels like fiction to me. I know it might be manufactured. I can't really see how the sausage is made so to speak. So, I don't fall for is I've never had an idol or role model that I can't see or touch. And I didn't have my father around or any positive people around growing up. So, I didn't have anyone to look up there to. But

32:47 when I got to that gym, which was different from where I was when I was an amateur, this was the first person. And I said, "This guy's living what he's yelling at me about." It'd be one thing if he was, you know, throwing them back and eating cake himself and flipping. No, he lived he lives it. And so, I said, "I want to be like this person." So good. Matt,

33:07 you mentioned the the sheer boredom. If when you have a day and you are completely bored with the process, what gets you through that day? Do you have a mechanism for that or what keeps you going?

33:18 I want to give you a magic answer. I really do. Here, I I'll do the next best thing. I'll tell you what scared me. Which scared me is being embarrassed. And that's what I used is being afraid. I said, "Okay, if if I lose this fight, we'll just talk about boxing and go bigger. If I lose this fight, because I was not prepared, it'll be my fault because I decided that today is the day I'm going to take a day off and I don't want to be embarrassed. So, let me get in there and get in the gym." And then once you get in there, you know, after about the first 10 minutes, you're you're in. It's that zero to one is the problem.

33:55 on on a on a much greater scale. I'm I'm not so fear driven anymore. Now it is this sense of responsibility and that sense develops well from from having responsibilities for for start but but how does one get responsibility? That process that leads up to it all of those boring reps. Boring reps. And I hope this doesn't sound too circular, but that's what is a hard kind of a hard question is that there's there's no there's no one thing that gets me through. It's just I look at it and I see it's what has to be done and I want it's I want the outcome, but I also don't want what happens if I don't succeed. So all of these things come together and it's just in the back of my head. You got to do this, you got to do this, you got to do this and eventually uh it gets done or it doesn't and I'm very confused.

34:59 Yeah, listen. Um the theme of our summit is at uh at your best. So what is at your best look like and how has that changed over time? So at at my best for me for a very long time just meant, you know, little things like I don't have to know what day of the week it is or I can just go to the grocery store or go on a trip or whatever. I got I have my time. I have enough on Monday to enjoy my time. It's a good day and there's no worries. This what I had my best meant for a very long time. probably over the at the very least over the last uh five to seven years minus two and a half. So like the better part of the decade. Now though very much so what at my best means is that everyone else everyone in the house is taken care of and if I have to lose little sleep to make that happen or go or or or miss out on something uh that's what at my best means now. But it is very external. It is it is about the people around me. Um

36:05 and and if if everyone else is doing well, then I know that I've done the best I could. I think what would bugs me or what would bug me is if something if someone is disturbed for some reason and and it was because of something I didn't do. that I should have done, you know. Um, so yeah, that that's what that's that's where the big shift has come is that it's it's no longer about how I how I assess my own time and and my own satisfaction. Now it's about the people around me.

36:50 Oh, go. Yeah. Mark James, why are you so humble? You're so accomplished, but yet you talked about your sobriety and being a father.

36:58 Hi, Ed. Uh, but it's okay. Did Did he say Jane? I think so, but it's fine. It's all good, though.

37:06 You guys kind of look like, you know. Yeah. Uh, nah, man. Cuz I've had my ego dragged through the mud a lot. You few things will humble you. Like looking like an ass. I I just can't. I mean, I'm just trying to think off the top of my head. really big humbling event was getting knocked down on TV. That'll that'll do it. Uh because you go and tell all these people to watch the show, well, watch you and and then you you you can let yourself get kind of obnoxious about it too and then like that it's over and it's not the way it you wanted to go. And you got to remember that that can suck. um being broke after having money, then being broke, you know, the the up and down and seeing how how quickly life can change.

38:03 remembering this is I think when people say this a lot of times what I'm about to say I think what they're trying to do is kind of bring you down in a negative way but remembering where I I came from and interacting with many of those people still I know that that life is not a no there's no guarantee right just because it's going well now doesn't mean it's not it's always going to go well and and I I I never forget that I I just I always feel like I'm one step away from anything putting me into a really bad position. Um, one of the reasons I stopped drinking, for example, you you know about the law, large numbers, right? You know, there's a there's a chance a thing will happen and the more trials you have, uh, the closer the outcomes look like the theoretical outcome. So, like you flip a coin, you flip it 10 times, you get head seven times, assuming, you know, you're not dealing with some shady characters, that

39:02 coin is not rigged. But you flip it 50 times, it's more like 26 and um 24. And then overall, you get closer and closer to that one half. So, crazy stat. Most people who drive under the influence don't get pulled over. It's it's terrible. It's like one in 2,800. And and unfortunately, you know, I I driven under the influence when I was drinking and I you get lucky get lucky four, five, six, who knows a lot of times. And it's like, well, how many times can we outrun the law numbers? And so I stop and I tell that story to set up this part where I worked with a guy, clearly the guy had a problem, but I worked with a guy when I was uh working at Starbucks. He had five DUIs.

39:54 And I'm like, man, the only difference between you and me though is that I was lucky. You unlucky. When you remembered it, all it takes is a some people ain't even bad. Just wrong place, wrong time. And you got to you got to remember that you're not that different. You may have made some different choices and accountability, and that's great, but it doesn't um elevate your value relative to other people kind of intrinsically. You know, there's like that human value thing and there's like, oh, how much money do you make? Two different things. But remembering the first one, that is is key. I think more people uh need to remember that. The only reason, you know, lucky, where were you born, who were your parents, all this stuff comes together and it it keeps a perspective that that allows me to remember I'm not anyone special pretty much.

40:51 Yeah. Go ahead, Mike. One of the things you talk about often is the concept of sustained excellence. And I think one of the traits for that is being fearless. Like just seeing all the competitions you've done and being in the military is as you continue to grow older, how do you remain fearless as you continue through your life?

41:07 Funny answer here. I think um I know I'm going to die. I mean, we're all going to die, right? Some people are in denial of that, some aren't. But one day I'm going to die. And on top of that, but it's going to take 100 years, maybe 150, unless I do something really good or really bad, and no one's going to ever remember me. So that means I got to make the most of my time here and not waste it. And I value that time. So I have to try try at least to to do the things that I want to do and to to do them to a high enough level to where I'm like, "Okay, I didn't just dabble here.

41:48 I I picked up a new skill. I met some new people. I I um is the most interesting man in the world used to say I beefed up my obituary. Like that kind of thing. So So just remembering my mort my mortality is a really powerful driver. It's it's also why I I'm just procrastination is like just an awful habit in general and the distractions of are all around. There's so like like if you really just wanted to do nothing, you could just sit never get out of bed and on your computer between the Netflix and the Hulu and and the social media.

42:35 So all this stuff that'll just take take take. How are you going to give? Change from a consumer mindset to a producer mindset. Remember, you only got a finite amount of time to produce that right there. You'll never want for any challenge in the world ever again if you think that way that you've only got a little bit of time and most people are just going to be consuming and you can figure out a way to to produce Pat.

43:08 Yeah. So Ed, this is kind of a follow on to what you're saying just now. Um, we look at the, you know, the list of things that you've done at the beginning was on the board there. Boxing, physics, now writing. Um, and you're talking about only having a finite amount of time, right? Um, how do you go about making the decision of what the next thing is going to be? You say the hardest thing is to start and decide what what am I going to start next? Man, I wish when I was a kid that I had like got a chance to do stuff because I feel like I'm just playing catchup now and that's why I keep doing so many other things as far as figuring out what I'll I'll take on next.

43:48 So there there's there's there's the path that is grooved out and it kind of makes the most sense based on your previous set of skills and then there's this this path and it's a jungle and you got to decide do you really want to go through the jungle. For example, here is a jungle that I I'm pretty sure I'm going to not I'm just going to stop because I keep running the walls. Really wanted to learn Russian for a while. Like it was really fascinating to me. got a guy in the gym who speaks Russian be easy, but Russian is just difficult and and it's difficult without the payoff like like the Spanish that I know I can use that I've used it here in Phoenix and this is in America.

44:34 Never going to use that. But the fiction that's why I'm carrying this notebook around, by the way, not to take notes while writing, but I was sitting up there before they came and got me. I was just taking notes on the next scene. That makes sense. I wanted to do fiction. I've always wanted to write fiction. I stumbled into this non-fiction world, which is cool, but fiction is interesting to me, and that's what I've always wanted to do. So, that's what I'll do now. And and here's like kind of a cool test to try. If you're trying to think about the next thing, think about what you wanted to do when you were like 10, 12, you know, right when you had like agency but no real responsibilities. What did you do for fun? I wrote stories. I used to this back before computers in the before times. I used to steal rungs of paper and those those bonders that were like it was like this weird kind of fake

45:25 plastic that you opened up and had the metal and I didn't write don't think they were any good but I wanted to try it and we'll see how we can how we do now. But that is that's kind of the the path to go. you you'll look at what you find interesting. Then you decide how difficult is it? Is it worth trying out? Uh are you going to get some from it? And then if if it checks those boxes, do it. If it only checks that that uh that interest box, but that that difficulty box isn't worth it, uh you let that go. And if it doesn't hit either one, you move on and you'll find it. There's just so much so much in the world to figure out and do and have fun with.

46:08 Yep. So, uh you talk about the the small little boring things and you reference it to to boxing. What are the small boring things you do in your process now to maintain your sobriety? So, so with the sobriety thing, I kind of cheated the first year and a half because I was super busy. I didn't have time to go anywhere. And when I finally went out 15 months in, it was it was to watch uh Jon Jones and the Daniel Comeier fight, the first one. anybody who's fans MMA and there was alcohol on the table and I was like I just don't want that. Like it was it was a weird thought process. I was like it's weird man. It's here but not interesting. Um so I can answer this question how I approached it initially but but now it's it's it's part of me. I've got my sobriety date tattooed on my arm. Little hashtags for each year. Uh, when I first started, I knew that I had to make sobriety a habit the same way I made

47:24 drinking a habit. In retrospect, I kind of did that automatically by just not drinking. But there's more to it. I learned how first small steps and then on and on. How to actually talk to people and interact with people without alcohol being the the um the pretense, you know, like let's get some drinks. A lot of people one happy hour away, one missed happy hour away from being lonely. And I I didn't want to be that guy. I didn't want to be boring out there when I was not drinking. So I spent a lot of time consciously like trying to meet people during the day, coffee shops, learning to talk, learning to connect, really have a conversation for no other reason than I'm not trying to drink. I won't say I like them cuz some of them I don't talk to anymore, but it really helped. And so to bring all this together now that I have like a clear answer and I don't know how much stock you put into like the MyersBriggs

48:31 thing, I'm an ENTJ. One of those things they say about ENTJs for other ENTJs in the room is that like we think out loud and then as we're talking the idea becomes crystal clear. So, it's become crystal clear to me and it drives my wife crazy because she's the opposite is I identified some other positive habit. When you remove something, you got to fill it with something. And so, I found a really small easy one and just stuck with that, stuck with that, stuck with that. And then when that became no issue, you you stick with something else. now like I can I mean I was never like I I don't want to step foot in a bar but but I also have no reason to be there at this point in my life but I can go into a bar. There can't be alcohol around. It's no big deal. Uh because I started with this small thing of just talking trying to talk which is like people hate that small talk thing. I love small talk. It's good time

49:30 question. Yeah. Go ahead. say u I've seen in many of the boxing matches this may be a stupid question but I'll just ask um when boxers come in we we spoke about they they display a lot of body language and all of that but uh in majority of the uh bouts you see when boxers walk in they have a cape down and they're not looking at anybody both the boxers are not actually looking at anybody is it the show for the audience or is there body language is there a language which is communicating between the two boxers.

50:06 So, like there's two things going on at the same time and you got to like fight them. On the one hand, you don't want to think about anything else but this fight coming up. So, you've got to block. you can't, you know, some guys come out and they really relax or whatever and sometimes they're like dapping people up, but for the most part, you're trying to like stay locked in and not be distracted. And then there's the other part where you're like, really don't want to think about this going badly and and uh and there's a possibility it could go badly.

50:45 You don't want to think about that either. So, so you got this thing you don't want to think about, but you got to think about and and you don't want to focus on anyone else, but that's the only like it's this cacophony and it's you can't make out anything individually. You just see everything. What what's trying to happen here is you you're really just trying to create this space. And in this space, nothing else matters because because boxing is really weird. Uh if anyone's ever boxed, you'll know what I'm talking about. That's what I say. But if you haven't, try to imagine this.

51:18 No one is doing anything else but looking just at you. That's it. You are almost naked. And there's a chance you're going to get embarrassed right? All of this is going on kind of it's like I wrote about this once just just to myself and I was going to use it somewhere but like there are like five fundamental fears. I don't think I'll get them all. It's like self mutilation not self it's like mutilation restraint um like invasion like like like something gets in you uh loss of autonomy some almost there. Um but but but uh boxing brings up like every fear all at once and not the match itself but like as you're leading up to it the anticipation of this thing that you can't run away uh something you're restrained. I mean like like that that's the part that just even now when I think about it just they put you in these gloves and they they got to put the gloves on before the fight goes. That's

52:30 obvious. What you don't know, what a lot of people don't know is that once they the official comes, checks, make sure there's a good tape, you're in. Like, you can't take that tape off. If you got to go to the bathroom, right? That's it. Funny story. A guy I trained with, but he had to go to the bathroom once the gloves on. So, you know, coach had to help him out. That So, you got all these things going on and you you don't want to give into that fear. You don't even want to give it energy, but it's it's just it's loud.

53:00 It's loud and you can't ignore it. So, the best thing you're trying to do is just turn everything into a blur. It's like, look over here. I know all these people just stare at this spot kind of deal and and block it out. Maybe it helps. Some guys it doesn't. But, but you see, you know, when guys zone in, all it takes when we get in there, a lot of guys have said this. I I agree with it too. You want to get hit. Not so hard that the fight's over, but just enough to know, okay, I'm in I'm in a fight. This is not paper. I'm not going to crumble. Let's go. And now that brings you real front and center. But up until that point, all you've get you got this this long. It's like they draw it out.

53:42 I'm watching a fight and I hate how long the the opening stuff is drawn out. So, I know what it's like and I know what it's like in there, too. It's like, why can't we just start the fight?

53:52 Okay. Thank you. No problem. Yeah, this has been Oh, yeah. Go ahead, Ma. Um I you briefly touched on it that you grew up next to a crack house. Your mother had substance abuse issues.

54:04 Like you are the person you are today and you've learned the lessons that you know from that upbringing partially and it's made you into this super centered person that you are today. You mentioned you have children. How do you find the balance of like trying to teach your children the same valuable lessons that you've learned from all those horrible experiences while obviously they live a very different life than what you did? How do you teach them those things in a much more safe and secure upbringing like they're in?

54:39 So you familiar with survivors bias? The idea is like okay, you know, you we look at the people who succeed as an example of like the the the process and everything that led up to it being successful. So, in this context, um, one might look at me and go, "Well, you know what you need to do? You need to move out of the suburbs and drop yourself right down next to a crack house and get yourself a pet crackhead while you're at it." Okay. What a lot of people forget most people who grow up in in in my environment, they they are not anything close. Well, I know guys when I was doing research for my book, I just went to look stuff up to, you know, I started going down memory lane and looking up some names and seen a bunch of guys in prison uh for different different things.

55:38 So my challenge is is not so much because because the research even if the research wasn't clear on this I've seen it with my own eyes but the research is clear on this too. The research is very clear that that that environment messes you up pretty bad and I've had to deal with a lot of things too. My challenge is not how to teach him the lessons um from that life. I didn't want him to know anything about that because love is a lot better. The the challenge for me is how do I get him to know that exists and to know what those people are like and to develop a sympathy and an empathy for them without him getting too close to it. You know, I want them to know the stove is hot, but I don't want them to touch it. problem is um as a as a good friend of mine said when you when you play in the mud with white gloves the glo the the mud never gets glovier right so I don't need him to have like so I

56:47 thought about this talked to my wife about it probably going to take him to the boxing gym you know why the boxing gym is great because it's this weird microcosm where the where the where the drug dealers and the cops types of training and nobody as long as nobody comes in trying to bring the business. It's like uh it's like in John Wake at the Continental. That's what it's like. We don't conduct business here, right? Kind of. And you you get to get to see that. Now, boxing is great for this because it's this it's this hard painful thing and but it's but it's conducted with respect because it has to be otherwise it it devolves into a street fight and and those don't have rules.

57:30 Those don't have dignity. Those don't have respect. So, what I'm doing with what my son is is introducing him to boxing. If he wants to compete, I'm not going to encourage or discourage, but I will probably have an argument uh and and and see what happens. But but I I guess to the crux of this is is uh I introduce hardship strategically and with awareness because it's um it's so the analogy I use. If I give you a weight that's like 2x times your max, you're not going to be able to move that weight. Nothing will happen.

58:16 No matter how hard you push, it's not going to go anywhere. Not only that, but you might hurt yourself trying to move it. But if I step it up incrementally, okay, you're going to get stronger. You're going to be able to eventually deal with the other stuff. I I think a lot of things we call trauma are a lot like that. That people get get hurt really early and really intensely and they can't recover from it. Not that these things are are are ever good, but it's a lot different if I if I call somebody if I pick a guy out the crowd and go smack him up a few times and call them names, he's going to be mad at me, they will recover. If I do that to a 5-year-old a few times, they be like, "What the heck happened?" And now that that like they're too young to grasp and I don't want them ever have to deal with that. So all that together, put a bow on it is I'm introducing hardship strategically and with love as opposed

59:10 to I'm just going to throw you to the wolves and you know hope you come back with a cape.

59:16 You uh to close man um talk about beefing up your obituary. It's a great it's a great one. What do you want your obituary to say?

59:26 Oh man, you know what? I I just hope that on my way out because when I'm gone, I'm gone. I hope on my way out I I hope my kid remembers that I was like a present happy dude because cuz like I don't have I have no real memories of my dad. Like I I have trouble remember what he looks like, right? And my mom don't really have pleasant memories. My wife when I met her dad had already passed. I have figured out over the years that her and her mom and her sister they don't have a good relationship with her mom. So like for all intents and purposes he's got no grandparents.

1:00:14 I don't I as I get older I want I don't want that. I want I want Okay. Yay. I kind of I don't mind my parents. He ain't got to like us, but you know, I don't I don't want to come up with excuses, why don't want to talk on the phone kind of deal. But as far as when I die, man, uh you know, it'll be cool. No one's going to read it. No one's going to know. I mean, maybe I'll invent something cool or do something really really cool, but not really worried. When I'm when I'm gone, I'm gone and it's going to take a generation or two before won't matter. I I know that's not a cool answer, man. It's real.

1:00:49 But but like I I I think a lot about that. Like I'm I'm 40, right? I'm about halfway done here. Hopefully not halfway done. I think I'm going to live to 120, but that's just me.

1:01:02 You're third. But uh but but I think about the time I got left. But but once it's up, it's up. Um I guess I'd like to write a best-selling fiction book.

1:01:16 There you go. and and and yeah, maybe one day I'll get get back around to Russian, but it is just miserable. It's hard. It's it's hard. And I I my high school was unique. I got to take Japanese and I took it for for four years. And then when my first try college before I failed out, I uh took it for for another year or so. And I was really like like I was that dude, man. What do they call them? Otakus. I loved the Japanese culture. I thought it was really cool. And then it hit me one day. This is a very difficult language and only one country speaks it and a lot of them speak English and on top of that that's a long flight. I probably won't go. So I lost all interest in Japanese. Russian is a little like that except except I don't want to get thrown in for for just being an American. I don't I don't know if that is what will happen. I know some fighters that have gone over there had no problems

1:02:10 whatsoever uh at all. But, uh, yeah, that's just I just hope, man, people remember that I I tried to help.

1:02:19 Love it. Well, the the book that everybody in here is going to get, uh, is called Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business. And I know I already worked on it. And, uh, I'm just really grateful that you decided to come here. By the way, Ed is also going to stay with us, come to dinner. He'll be with us tomorrow. So, he's going to be a regular attendee. He wanted to be attended the whole time. And I said, let's let's make it like a little bit of a surprise. And so I want to tell you guys a story. This is cool. So first he invites me and I said, "Great." And then I'm like, "Man, this is really cool. You invited me. Do you want me to do a presentation?" He goes "Yeah."

1:02:54 So I'm putting together the presentation. I get an email. Hey, hey, I got this idea. I got this idea. We had James Clear do this thing last year. You want to come and do that? I said, "Do I ever?" Because this is a lot easier than creating. No, it worked out, dude.

1:03:11 It it it did work out. Yeah. Yeah. But he'll be with us the whole time. Uh you're all going to get his book. I'd like you to like order it on Amazon in addition to getting it for me. That stuff matters. It should be a bestseller. I know it's not like I mean it kind of matters, I guess, but like I I want to support Ed and his work for all that he's he he gives to us and gives to so many people. Like super inspiring dude. Like just an amazing amazingly inspiring to me and to so many man. So

1:03:38 you inspire me, man. Yeah, I appreciate it. Give it up for Ed Latimore. Awesome dude.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business - Live Interview with Ed Latimore"?

Ryan Hawk (Host), Ed Latimore (Guest).

What is "Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business - Live Interview with Ed Latimore" about?

The main topic centers on Ed Latimore's personal journey through struggle, addiction, and discipline, emphasizing that overcoming hardships is essential for success. He highlights the importance of facing challenges head-on, learning from failures, and maintaining a strong sense of purpose, all while reflecting on how his past experiences shaped his resilience and character.

What is mentioned in this Ryan Hawk episode?

2 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business, Anna Karenina. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business - Live Interview with Ed Latimore"?

The episode runs 1 h 4 min; the transcript is about 11,445 words in 112 timestamped sections.

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