He Wore a Wire 40+ Times for the FBI | Tom Hardin Tipper X

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on Tom Hardin, known as Tipper X, who became a key informant in Operation Perfect Hedge, the largest insider trading investigation in history. He shares his harrowing experiences cooperating with the FBI, the ethical dilemmas he faced, and the repercussions of decisions made in isolation within the high-stakes world of Wall Street.

Key takeaways

• When in doubt, consulting a lawyer can save you from a wire-taped heart attack.
• Ambiguous leadership messages can lead to slippery slopes; clarity protects both integrity and sanity.
• Operation Perfect Hedge: a reminder that even Wall Street's elite can't outrun their bad choices.
• The FBI doesn't just enlist informants on a whim; desperation often disguises itself as opportunity.
• Insider trading isn't a one-time mistake; it's a series of rationalizations waiting to ensnare the unwary.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Ryan Hawk (Host) · 22 min speaking
• Tom Hardin (Guest) · 33 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: New York City, New York, Operation Perfect Hedge, FBI, Thomas Kovi Harden
2. 20:00 – 25:00: New York City, New York, Wall Street, Leman Brothers, Georgia
3. 30:00 – 35:00: FBI, New York City, New York
4. 40:00 – 45:00: Wall Street, Georgia
5. 50:00 – 55:00: Wall Street, Road to Character, David Brooks

Notable quotes from "He Wore a Wire 40+ Times for the FBI | Tom Hardin Tipper X"

• Operation Perfect Hedge was the largest insider trading investigation in history. And they called me Tipper X cuz I was the key to my dad.

  about Operation Perfect Hedge · at 0:06

• Approached me on the street, which we'll talk about, and convince me to help them out. And they called me Tipper X because I was the key informant. I helped build 20 of those…

  about Thomas Kovi Harden · at 1:48

• The market's crazy. Which was a good excuse. I'm working so hard. Friday after work, she was working at Lehman Brothers, so people are familiar with that went to zero. She's…

  about Leman Brothers · at 24:39

• And one of the most important books I read in this process was Road to Character by David Brooks. And he talks about eulogy virtues and resume virtues.

  about Road to Character · at 53:17

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Thomas Kovi Harden — Person · Main guest · 2 mentions · first at 1:51
  Primary interview subject; former hedge fund analyst turned FBI cooperator ('Tipper X') discussing Operation Perfect Hedge, ethical drift, and leadership lessons.
• Raj Rajaratnam — Person · Referenced figure / case subject · 4 mentions
  Named as a major target from the insider trading era; used to contextualize the scale and notoriety of Operation Perfect Hedge and related cases.
• David Brooks — Person · Referenced expert / author · 1 mention · first at 53:18
  Cited for the 'eulogy virtues vs resume virtues' framework via his book 'The Road to Character,' used to explain the guest’s shift in values.
  And one of the most important books I read in this process was Road to Character by David Brooks. And he talks about eulogy virtues and resume virtues.

Books & papers

• Road to Character — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 53:18
  A book that influenced the guest's perspective on eulogy virtues versus resume virtues.

Companies & orgs

• FBI — Company · Key organization · 4 mentions · first at 0:00
  The FBI conducted Operation Perfect Hedge and approached the guest to cooperate in the investigation.
  FBI is listening? Something's taped to my chest. Now I'm about to have a heart attack. I thought, Oh my god, is this guy going to try to kill me or something? They arrested 81 people.
• Leman Brothers — Company · Referenced company · 1 mention · first at 24:43
  Mentioned as the place where the guest's wife worked during the financial crisis.

Places & events

• Operation Perfect Hedge — Event · Core topic · 3 mentions · first at 0:02
  The largest insider trading investigation in history, central to the discussion about ethics and leadership in finance.
• Wall Street — Place · Setting · 5 mentions · first at 1:32
  The primary location where the insider trading activities took place.
  Was July 2008. I'm leaving my apartment in Manhattan 6:30 in the morning to drop off some dry cleaning. I'm working at a hedge fund as a hedge fund analyst in the middle of the…
• New York City, New York — Place · Setting · 7 mentions · first at 0:26
  The city where the guest was approached by the FBI and where much of the story takes place.
  Right. Over 40 occasions. I was It was July 2008. I'm leaving my apartment in Manhattan 6:30 in the morning to drop off some dry cleaning. I'm working at a hedge fund as a hedge fund analyst in the middle of the financial crisis. I.
• Georgia — Place · Referenced location · 3 mentions · first at 2:33
  Mentioned as the guest's home state and where his family is from.
  And the last time I heard my full name was my mother back in Georgia about to whip my butt. It wasn't my mom. So I turn around two FBI agents dark suits.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 You don't just volunteer to cooperate with the FBI. What was Operation Perfect Hedge?

0:06 Operation Perfect Hedge was the largest insider trading investigation in history. And they called me Tipper X cuz I was the key to my dad.

0:15 What is it like putting on a wire and going to have a conversation knowing the FBI is listening? Something's taped to my chest. Now I'm about to have a heart attack. I thought, "Oh my god, is this guy going to try to kill me or something?" They arrested 81 people. There was another two dozen that I I was shocked weren't even arrested. Oh my goodness. So, this is just rampant. I want to look at this from a leadership perspective. It's making decisions in isolation. So, the information came to me. I didn't talk to my my boss. One of the biggest takeaways is don't start making decisions in your own head. Get help that you need. Most people, they they may look at your story and say, I would never do that. Seems like I'll do it just this one time. It wasn't one time. 9 months later, I turn around two FBI agents dark suits. Can you come sit down with us? That's how it all started.

1:02 Tom, uh, really good to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thanks for having me on the show, Ryan. It's a pleasure to be here. So, to start, uh, can you tell me what is Operation or what was Operation Perfect Hedge? So, Operation Perfect Hedge was the largest insider trading investigation in history uh, around the time of the financial crisis. So 2008 to 2010, 81 hedge fund professionals were charged on Wall Street with insider trading, buying or selling stocks on non-public information. There was 32 cooperators who helped the FBI build these cases.

1:42 And I always say today, you don't just volunteer to cooperate with the FBI. There's a reason you do that. And they approached me on the street, which we'll talk about, and convince me to to help them out. And they called me Tipper X because I was the key informant. I helped build 20 of those 81 cases going back around 15 years ago or so. So that's what that operation was.

2:03 Wild. Okay. How did we get to the point where you decided to help them and wear a wire? Uh I guess 40 plus times. Is that right?

2:12 Right. Over 40 occasions. Um I was It was July 2008. I'm leaving my apartment in Manhattan 6:30 in the morning to drop off some dry cleaning. I'm working at a hedge fund as a hedge fund analyst in the middle of the financial crisis. I step on the sidewalk and this guy behind me says, "Are you Thomas Kovi Harden?" And the last time I heard my full name was my mother back in Georgia about to whip my butt. It wasn't my mom. So I turn around two FBI agents dark suits. Can you come sit down with us? So that's how it all that's how it all started.

2:42 Just sort of out of the movie a movie scene. Now why were they calling you by all three names uh and wanting to talk to you? I think that's probably just a tactic to intimidate uh targets. You know, you're not expecting that in 6:30 in the morning in Manhattan of, you know, 7 million people on the street. So, that was part of the the tactics. And then they sat me down. Uh they were aware of four trades that I had placed on inside information while working at a hedge fund and we could talk about um how that happened. And they said, "Hey, you know, we think you can help us uh build these cases we're looking at in the industry."

3:16 And I said, "Should I talk to a lawyer?" and they said, you know, don't don't talk to a lawyer. So,

3:22 so four trades you made based on inside information. What what what take me inside those trades and and how you got this information and then how you made these trades.

3:32 Yeah. So, I guess to even back up uh where I started in my career, my 20s working in the hedge fund industry, um I loved investing when I started uh especially with with tech stocks, you can always bet on the new entry, bet against the old business. And I also became aware that insider trading was rapidly happening um buying or selling stocks and inside information. And I never felt I had I had to cross that line until one day our my boss made my goals very short-term. So we went from investing over a three-year horizon to after we lost money. We have to make money every month. And so he walks into my office and says, "Do whatever it takes." And Ryan, as a junior employee, I didn't ask any clarifying questions.

4:11 And here is a very ambiguous message from the leader to the junior to do what it takes. And again, me just letting the ambiguity sit. And then right after that meeting a few months later, over the next 7 months, I received four tips from another investor. Uh placed very small trades in my portfolio at my company. I told myself, everybody's doing it. The classic rationalizations uh that people can go through, you know, in your head, it seems like I'll do it just this one time. It wasn't one time. It happened four times. And then that was the end of 2007. Nine months later was that FBI approach on the street in New York City.

4:48 So you think from a leadership perspective these guys the they were like dude I don't really care what you do but I do care about the results. So find a way essentially and if you have to go near or over the line then you do what you got to do. Um, is that basically the the mentality of of all hedge funds at the time? Your hedge fund, what what do you think?

5:16 It was uh a lot of hedge funds focus on tech stocks uh because tech stocks trade um you know in high volatility around their earnings reports which are four times a year or M&A announcement. So it was really focused on uh hedge funds looking at those those companies. But to your point, ambiguity is something I see today. Sometimes I'm hired to speak to a Fortune 500 leadership summit. I say, you know, ladies and gentlemen, it starts with an ambiguous message, which my boss gave to me. Then they pretend the message wasn't ambiguous. You know, don't don't question my communication.

5:45 Just do as I said. And then that ambiguity, it kind of becomes undiscussible because the employees are confused and don't don't question the boss. And then almost the undiscussibility becomes undiscussible and then you have this culture of silence. So it happened in a micro way at my little firm but it happens in major ways in other types of you know industries around around the world that I see quite often. So it's not like the have you watched the TV show Billions by chance?

6:11 Yes. So Bobby Axelrod will say I am not or how how how confident are you and they say I am not uncertain. I believe that's what CP Brian Coppelman the writer of that show has been on this podcast. I think that's how they phrase it which essentially means I've got insider information. It wasn't like that. It was so that's that's a really good show. They have great consultants. There was one um there was two people when the FBI approached me on the street that they were trying to get two big billionaires. uh one they they caught a guy named Raj Rajar Ratnam from Sri Lanka went to prison for 11 years and the other guy they didn't catch and the and the and the show billions is based on that individual and the way that they would uh get information was not directly it was tell me what your conviction is sort of 1 to 10 and when the analyst who's pitching the idea says 9 or 10 that implied that there was

7:01 inside information so again to your point not explicitly saying here is the actual tip but that's where it was the show as I understand it was derived from that case that never never came to be. Interesting. So that I I I would I guess I want to look at this from a leadership perspective, Tom, and I guess morals and ethics and some people are willing to push it. Some people go over the line. Now that you work and you speak with these big companies and you go to these leadership summits, what do you what is your messaging around effective leadership doing it with morals, with ethics that that perhaps you learned from your time of of going over the line. So leaders really need to identify that ambiguity I mentioned. Um, one of the biggest takeaways as I look back at my situation and writing the book really had me focus on what was I actually thinking at the time. You know, the book is much longer

7:57 than my keynote. And really, uh, it's making decisions in isolation. So, the information came to me. I didn't talk to my my boss. I didn't even talk to my wife who probably would have slapped me around. Why would you ever cross those lines? Like, as a young man in my 20s, I just made decisions in isolation. So, leaders need to figure out where in your organizations. is maybe there's one team, maybe there's one geography that's in a higher corruption risk country where people could be making decisions in isolation, especially today, Ryan, with everybody kind of hybrid. Some people are in the office a day a week, some people are so teams are all trying to figure out, you know, my team's at home or in the office once a week. Like where do people make decisions in isolation? That's a big thing. And also what I try to do in my ethics training is to do sort of muscle memory like here's a situation your boss is coming

8:42 in giving you an ambiguous order. You have to have psychological safety at the company to say, "Hey, I'm just I'm not sure here. I have to ask some clarifying questions." Psychological safety is a big buzz word now, but it's sometimes thrown around without any meaning behind it. You have to be comfortable as the junior to say, I'm just going to ask some clarifying questions here. Don't start making decisions in your own head. Get help that you need so you're so you're protected. I mean, this is people's reputations and as I understood, my livelihood, you know, was was impacted. What one of the things that I uh after reading and learning about your story, I wanted to talk to you about was this this this thought that most people they they may look at your story and say, "I would never do that." Like I I just would never do that. And and and you your story shows that we're more sus susceptible to moral

9:30 drift than maybe we realize. And and you write typically 10% of employees are morally incorruptible. 10% are a compliance nightmare and 80% can be swayed either way. 80% seems really high to be swayed again over the line. Can can you talk to me more about this potential for drift and how more of us are susceptible than than maybe we'd like to think?

9:56 Yes, absolutely. And there will be people that read the book and even hear my story today in the keynote. They're like, "That would never be me. I would never make those decisions." I would argue you're more susceptible to falling down your own slippery slope when you think it couldn't be you. So I always encourage people to have some healthy paranoia. Never say never. Ryan, if I had read my story back in ethics class in college that we all had, I'd say that that would never be me. I would never be 29 years old and making those trades because I'm a good person. We all think we're we're good people, but we all have the capacity to start rationalizing very small decisions. And I think that 10 1080 is really apppropo.

10:30 uh you know the 10% are you know are sort of the nightmare of HR and compliance. Every time I speak at a company they sort of nod their head like we know who that we know who they are. The 10% are sort of the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts but that middle 80% can really be swayed. And so many companies I speak to today say we have a great tone at the top. We have great shareholder letters. The tone means nothing. It's the actual behaviors in the organization. All right, this is a nice glossy shareholder letter or a board meeting. But what is actually happening inside the company? What behaviors are rewarded? Uh company culture is not the tone at the top. It's the behaviors employees believe will be rewarded or put them ahead. That's exactly what the culture is. So that the more granular people can get and companies and leaders can get with that, the more they'll understand it and you know create better cultures. If you were

11:20 giving advice, you're consulting, working alongside a senior leadership team and you wanted them to build a place that's morally sound, they make the right decisions, they do it the right way, right? They do the right things the right way. And you just said that you you got to ensure that the right behaviors are being rewarded. So what would you institute? Would there be some sort of process or some sort of reward system where to ensure that they're living by the values and ethics that the leaders want?

11:51 Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be anything that's really big and grandiose. It can be very small. Just recognition of an employee who made a who made a an ethical call where they actually had to give up maybe some business because that was the right thing to do at the time. So even just not even a financial reward for that just a recognition at the all hands meeting or however uh companies have their group meetings on a Monday you know recap we want to we want to recognize this person or maybe some companies have little newsletters that go out and say hey this person chose chose ethics over commercial the commercial opportunity because it wasn't the right one. So just little little nudges like that actually will help set the culture. Um, also I think it's it's more about again as I said the culture is what's what's the behaviors that are rewarded and you also have to companies have to ask better questions. Every

12:39 company I speak at always has a culture survey and they say rate the culture of ethics and compliance which is a terrible question because people always rate it. It's more like which of our values are true and which aren't and in which way. And you have to ask questions that you maybe don't even want to know the answers to because it'll make you uncomfortable, but you won't get at the root cause unless you're asking better questions is also something I've seen.

13:02 What are what are the right questions to be asking? What are great questions to be asking.

13:07 So if you are, you know, uh every company has values, which of our values are true, which are not, and in what way? Just getting more granularity. Um, you could just say, well, looking at um how we make decisions here, uh, do we call our uh, bad decisions mistake mistakes? That's a big one I wrote about in the book because then we're not really owning our bad decisions if we call them mistakes. So, that's one uh, one.

13:31 What do you What do you want to call your bad decisions? Bad decisions because they were actually made with intent and mistakes are done without intent. And so, I didn't learn that until I actually started sharing the story after all this happened. And I was telling myself I made mistakes. And then on the drive home, I was speaking at a college in Boston. I said, "There's no way I made mistakes. I made bad decisions." And actually my whole life up to that point of going through this, it made me feel better because I told myself I made mistakes. So it's just important to actually have, you know, we we make both, right? And just understand how you learn from them and and the difference.

14:05 Can we take a quick side road on this bad decisions and mistakes? So, you're a dad as well and and I immediately start thinking of this as a dad. Okay.

14:15 Yes. Do you're like, how do you talk about this with your kids when they make a bad decision and they say, "I I didn't mean to. I just made a mistake, Dad." Like, how how do you how do how do you how does this go?

14:26 So, my my uh oldest uh was I guess I'll tell the story. It's fine. She won't listen when she was in kindergarten or first grade. Uh the teacher called, you know, she had written all over the wall with the crayon. Fifth, five years old. I made a mistake. I'm like, well, did the crayon fall out of your bag and hit the wall and it just did that itself or did you actually do it yourself? I did it myself. Okay, that's what we call a bad decision. Even at 5 years old, she understood that. And then going now that she's a teenager and in 10th grade, there's all kind of opportunities to make some very bad decisions, which now could impact, you know, thank God they didn't have the phones back back in my day because that what that one picture could impact your whole life. So, um, you know, I always sit down with them when they're we're having these discussions and they'll say, you know, dad, you and your psychology like, no,

15:13 this is actually my lived experience. Your dad went through this so you don't have to. And that's just something I see today to call them out and say, those are mistakes. Those are bad decisions. And how it's just important to think about the difference and did you have intent or not? So, that's how I do it today with their teenagers.

15:26 Let's let's go back to the day when you you made the first uh insider trade, if that's what it's called. Um, what what was can you I I just love to take like go inside your mindset as you're deciding to do it and then like how you felt after the first one and after the second and the third one and the fourth one are you

15:46 you know are you feeling shame or are you thinking like hey I just got to do what I got to do like I'm I'm just curious of to get inside your head at that time. So a few months after that meeting with my boss, do what it takes. Be not asking clarifying questions. Now our goals are make money every month. I receive a phone call from a woman who used to work for this billionaire I mentioned, Raj Raja Ratnam, who was who went to prison for some time. She says, "Tom, you'd made me a lot of money over the last few years. I always gave her my best ideas." I wrote in the book. My best idea ever was long Google and then short the yellow pages. uh younger listeners won't know what the yellow pages are, but uh back in the day these big things in our driveway and uh those were going to go away. And so that's the only insight you even need in this business like that. She calls me and says, "I have something for you now,

16:31 Tom, and you can't tell anybody." And she proceeded to say, "This public company was going to be acquired in a few weeks. Here's the date. Here's the price. Here's the private equity firm." When I talk to students today, I say, "Imagine the answers to the test just fell in your lap. Are you not going to look at them? Are you going to throw it away?" And I actually I was still holding on to my moral compass. I was telling myself, I don't do this. I know a lot of people are doing this. But then I shared it with a friend I mentioned in the book who worked at a prop trading firm. He was down that month. We're talking. He said, "Are you hearing anything out there I can make a short-term trade on?" You know, his wife was pregnant. They were expecting. He was losing money. And so almost to help him out, I said, "I don't trade this, but if you want to, you can do it." Just like right there, it's really important

17:15 for people to know I've exposed myself to insider trading liability by sharing this information. So, anybody working at a public company, you're not helping your your friend, right? You're actually exposing yourself. He loads up. He calls me back. I see the stock moving up every day just a little bit. The woman that calls me is going to make millions. Um, he's going to make millions. And I'm just watching it. He calls me back. are you in? And when an employee crosses a line, there's something called a fraud triangle. There's three reasons usually.

17:45 There's the need, the perceived need to cross a line. So, I had short-term performance need. Then there's an opportunity. And the opportunity at my company was I could buy a stock in our portfolio, less than 1% of our assets, and not have to talk to the boss. And I remember calculating and buying a.9% position in our portfolio. The third part of the fraud triangle is rationalization, which you know, I said everybody's doing it. I'll do it just this one time. It's never once. Ryan, I could still think of myself as a good person. I'm a faithful husband. Go to go to mass. Um, you know, it's called moral licensing where 99% of my life I'm doing the right thing. I make thousands of trades a year. I can make one bad trade.

18:25 That's how you kind of tell yourself. Um, I'll do it just once and never never again. It never is. And really, as I sat back, I said, you know, I have no idea who she's talking to. She's full of rumors. And the big thing here again in writing the book, I realized my whole life I would tell myself stories about crossing lines. Back when I got my driver's license, I'd go a little bit over the speed limit because my friend said it was fine. When I was in college, I'm dating myself. There was Napster that came out, did a little bit of that.

18:52 So all my life, I'm telling myself stories, it's okay to cross that line. And by the time I was 29, I placed that trade. My boss actually said nothing. And so a week later, the deal happens. the stock is up 30% before the market opens. We're going through our portfolio every morning, 20 stocks, and he says, "Oh, it's one of those. Keep me out of it." So, that's called willful blindness for leaders. Just to think about when you see short-term performance in any business, you have to ask what's behind that performance. Just don't make assumptions, anything goes or try to be willfully blind because then you're actually enabling that behavior and then it would happen three more times. Just assume it's exactly like that.

19:33 Now, when the news came out, Ryan, I kind of had my my heart rate shot up, I thought, "Holy crap, this is exact information." And then when my boss said, "Don't tell me about it." And I knew the other guys were doing it. I hate to say it, but I kind of got an adrenaline rush. Just, oh my gosh, now I'm part of this elicit inroup. And in writing the book, I kind of figured out I always felt like an outsider and now I'm part of this endroup who's engaging in this behavior. So that was really the the mental gymnastics that were happening at that time.

20:03 It it kind of makes me hate your boss. I mean, it's the first thought of this. Oh, it's one of those. Don't tell me. I mean,

20:11 kind of. I don't know. Maybe I'm just virtue signaling. I guess I could be. I I don't know. But what was he like as a as a boss?

20:21 Yeah, it was very um confrontational. It was a 2007208 so it was really toxic environment uh shouting matches which is not uncommon in this business. It's high pressure. It's cutthroat. You have to make money for your investors. Um we were always uh blaming each other for the bad stocks cuz sometimes we would both work on a stock idea. That was your position that was yours. At one point he's in my face or secretaries. It was just very toxic. And uh by this point, you know, he knew what I was doing. And over every trade of the four trades, it was some some iteration of don't tell me how you're getting this information.

20:57 Keep me out of it. Oh, this is really helping us. And the fourth and final trade, I was at a conference in California. He emailed me, great trade. And he was actually never charge, right? I mean, he but he actually knew what I was doing, you know, for sure for certain. But that that that further fueled my rationalizations. He's 15 years older. He's my mentor. Not not a great mentor. Um but he thinks it's okay. And so I'm surprised I didn't start buying more stock, more than what I could do because he's all into this.

21:22 We could have been making millions and I just kept it small because I felt I'm just playing along. Uh it's like dropping a penny in the Grand Canyon. Nobody would ever know until I found out that morning in New York City. Uh people know wh why wasn't he charged?

21:38 Um because it's a good question. um today, just so people are aware, he would definitely be charged with failure to supervise his employee who's committing these trades. That's a not to get too technical, that's a civil case from the SEC. So in these cases, the SEC, which has a lower burden of proof and the FBI, law enforcement has a higher burden of proof because you're actually potentially taking away people's liberties. And so today, the SEC would definitely charge somebody with failure to supervise because I was as only one stock analyst. Like, how did he have that conversation? I'll never figure out how he how he was in charge.

22:14 Wow. Okay. And then Okay. So then then they they got you. They call you by all three names and they're going to send you to jail or whatever. But there's another option, right? You can help us. You can work with us. So walk me through the what's going through your head at that time, the conversations that you may or may not be having with your wife about all of this. Like I I just I I I got to hear. I mean, this is stuff we see in movies, yet this is your actual real lived life.

22:44 Yeah. So, at the Wendy's, we know about your four trades. Tom, we know that you were just down in Georgia visiting your baby nephew for his baptism and they knew his name and he's 6 weeks old. And so, Ryan, my first thought was, "Oh my god, you know, my dad's going to kill me. What's he going to say?" You know, he just all our parents talk about is our success. They don't know what Wall Street or hedge funds are. They just know that, you know, their son's doing really well. That was my first thought. they're going to be uh very sad about this. I thought, "Oh my goodness, my wife's going to leave. We just got married. I went through RCIA for her.

23:13 She's devout Catholic. She's she's going to have a reason to sort of question the marriage." And I thought, "Oh my gosh, this might impact my career. Oh yes. Oh my god, I might be going to prison." I start making implicating statements. Yes, I made those four trades. In fact, I mentioned in the book like two of them there was a cash payoff situation. The FBI had no idea and the FBI said, "Go on. Go on." And so they said, "I want to stop you right there. are you aware of this happening? You have the chance to help us. I said, "Should I talk to a lawyer?" They said, "Don't talk to a lawyer." They're they're not supposed to say that, but hey, FBI agents have their own incentives to build cases, so they're going to say, "Uh, you know, I should have watched more law in order to understand. I could just take their card, but I was scared." They called me a cab to the office. Uh, they told me I

23:54 could only tell my wife, nobody else. I immediately violated that. My second confession after RCIA was Tuesday afternoon at St. Patrick's at lunch. I get in line. I had gallows humor. I wrote like, "How many other hedge fund people are here in line for for a confession?" I sat down with the priest and I think he honestly saved my life. He said, "Hey, it sounds like 99% of your life." You know, I started with my life story and I got to the trade. He's like, "Get to it." And he said, "Basically, your penance is to help the FBI." Now, I should have talked to a lawyer. I didn't talk to a lawyer for almost two years, but I talked to the priest. And then I said, "Now I have to tell my wife." And I waited till Friday, Ryan, um, after work just I didn't want to see her. I was having panic attacks, bet sweats, and she's wondering what's going on. She's texting me. I said, "Oh, the market's crazy." Which was a good

24:41 excuse. I'm working so hard. Friday after work, she was working at Lehman Brothers, so people are familiar with that that went to zero. She's under stress. I said, "Let me go first." You know, young couple in New York City, a glass of wine before dinner, you got to sit down. And I told her everything. Tuesday morning, the FBI approached me. And I remember accepting responsibility. Yes, I made these four trades. I didn't try to tell lies or white lies. I just said, "I did it." And she said, "Can you say it again? I said it again." And she said, "You didn't do anything to hurt me." Ryan, 85% of marriages, I found a stat when I was researching uh end more or less right there. Because she had every right to leave, say, you know, I don't know who you are. We just got married. We didn't have kids. You know, it would have been easier just to hoist the sales and say, "You're going to be Tipper X, not the future hedge fund

25:27 manager. No thanks." Um, but she it wasn't easy, but she was able to to accept it as best as she could that day, which I think really I didn't even want to think about if I was kicked out what have what kind of spiral I would have been into. Um, so I was very lucky that she accepted it.

25:42 Oh man, what did that mean to you? What does it currently mean to you to have that rock there to especially when you're going through the toughest thing of your life?

25:51 Yeah, it's, you know, I think about it. Um, I made four very bad decisions on the trades, but I made the most important decision that which I argue for anybody of my life. Um, that was a good good decision. We just passed 20 years of marriage, uh, 2025. Uh, when I was interviewing her, it's pretty surreal to interview your wife for your memoir. So, uh, 2025, I figured I had to interview her for her perspective. And I said, "What was it like for you?" And she sort of set me straight. She said, "Tom, thanks for asking because you never did." And she was she was correct. You know, I was so consumed with myself once my name became public as Tipper X, this FBI informant.

26:28 I was so concerned with myself. And she was like, "Hello." You know, I was here the whole time with the kids going to work. She was holding down work while I couldn't work. I I blew a complete hole in our family financials cuz I couldn't work and we had bought the house on double income. You know, we had we were trying to stay positive and I just felt unbelievable. Like I just couldn't believe how she handled it. so so well just interviewing her just last year for something that happened quite a long time ago. And she said, you know, we've had we had good times, we had tough times, but we never had bad times. And so, what do you mean by that? She said, well, bad times we would have turned to each other. I would have moved out. So, we had tough times, but not bad times because I knew who you were.

27:11 And so, I I hope people see the real hero of the book is not is not me. When you make those four bad decisions though, wouldn't it wouldn't it erode trust? I know you didn't do anything to her directly, but you did make bad decisions. And some would say, I might say this, well, if you can make bad decisions there, you're going to make bad decisions in other places that are really important. And that can be a tough thing when it comes to the foundation of a relationship, which is trust.

27:43 Oh, 100%. 100%. And I think that's usually why the marriage ends because if you cheat here and sort of it's a lie of omission, you know, not not mentioning it, where else would he be cheating? And so your to your point, I think that's why most marriages dissolve because then the trust is lost in in the marriage. And I had to I had to work hard uh you know again interviewing her, my wife last year, she said, "All I remember is you accepted responsibility immediately. You didn't make up excuses." And so that was just I guess a feather in my cap, but it was it was rocky. Um you know, she she was able to work, thank God. But as I wrote, you know, I was a stay-at-home dad at some point. We started our family. I was still in a shame spiral. Like there was one point um where I saw there was a major bank years later who was uh laundering money for El Chapo. Nobody was arrested, no felonies. They just paid a fine. And I

28:33 said, "Sue, can you believe this? These people were laundry laundering money for El Chaveo in New York and they're going home to their brownstones and she said, "Hey, is that helping you find a job?"

28:43 So, talk about a woman that can just put you back in your place. That's that's what I needed too.

28:47 So, you go on to wear a wire and have these like what are you doing? I mean, what is that? What are those conversations like? Where are you going? Where are you meeting these people? I mean, are you feeling kind of like I'm thinking of good fellas, you know, and they they really speak poorly around about the snakes or the people who help

29:07 the FBI. Uh, you know, I don't know what that's like. I'm fascinated. What is it like putting on a wire and going to have a conversation knowing the FBI is listening and knowing you might help put this person away? I mean, man, what what was that like?

29:20 Yeah. So, I told her Friday and I said, "Mom, I have to have lunch with the FBI." had my first lunch with the FBI after the Wendy's meeting. There was a small piece of metal on the table and I was just so naive. I said, "Is that an extra Blackberry battery?" And they were probably looking at me, "No, this is a this is a recording device." I said, "Is that a body wire?" They said, "Yes, we want you to help us build cases. It's going to help you out." And they played up to my patriotism. You're doing this for your country. It wasn't it wasn't for that to be honest. It was just to help, you know, myself to, you know, just to maybe not have um dire dire consequences at sentencing. But it was a weird situation because I had to build relationships with people. Usually somebody that wears a wire in a case, you would have to think about would I wear a wire on a friend. Um there was one case where a guy wore a wire on his

30:06 best man at his wedding. Like I'd like to think I wouldn't do that, but the woman that tipped me and the guy I had tipped, I had already worn a wire on me. So I said, "How do I help you?" and they said who are the worst actors now Thomas here's your opportunity to help us and so I just went with that hey if I can help them maybe it's something positive I could do but I ran around I remember writing like my first meeting was this guy in Silicon Valley he would sit down I would just get right to the point nice to meet you remember three years ago when you made those illicit trades like if you were a target right why why is this guy asking me these questions about crimes I committed I just met this guy the FBI would be at the table next to me because they wanted to make sure I wasn't is signing you a piece of paper.

30:46 Hey, I'm wearing a wire. Don't talk to me. Which would be obstructing justice. And so the guy would leave. I gave them the device. The next day they'd say, "Tom, you did a terrible job." And I'm like, "Guys, it's my first time doing this." There was no training in, you know, ethics class about wearing a wire. And eventually the coaching I got was ask a question and to be silent. I would always ask a question. The target would not say anything and I would just fill it. They said ask a question, be silent. And then eventually by the third meeting, people would just start saying enough, oh, I have a contact inside this company. And you know, they would often looked at me as the younger version of themselves. Maybe they're going to groom me into to somebody who could be helpful for them. And the FBI would say, "You're done here. Go on to the next one." Um, but that could get to the scariest

31:32 moment, too, where um there was a guy high up the FBI's list who got me in 15. What is it like putting on a wire and going to have a conversation knowing the FBI is listening and knowing you might help put this person away? He calls me Sunday afternoon and he said, "Tom, we need to have dinner tonight. We need to talk." I called the FBI. I said, "This guy wants to have dinner on a Sunday." They got excited. They met me at the train station in Manhattan. Gave me the wire. I took the train up to Connecticut. He picks me up at the train station and he says, "Tom, good to see you. I brought swim trunks for you.

32:08 We're going swimming at my mother's house. And the sopranos, that was the final season that summer. So, all these ideas are going through my head. I played a cool guy in his car. Said, "Let's go swimming." Uh, we drive to this old mansion in Connecticut. He starts disroing in this room. He wants to see if something's taped to my chest. It was in my front pocket. Now, I'm about to have a heart attack. I excuse myself, took the wire out, went to the restroom. I took the wire out, put it in my jeans, put these swim trunks on. So, the two of us are walking out to this pool. It was so quiet. I saw a shovel against the house, a hole in the ground.

32:41 I thought, "Oh my god, is this guy going to try to kill me or something?" And he was just having landscaping done. And we got in a swimming pool and he grabs a tennis ball. We're playing this awkward game of catch. So, he's pouring it on. And after a while, he said, "Tom, I he spoke to a lawyer. He has one question for me. I was going to give it up, Ryan. I just wanted to go home." He said, "Tom, have you been approached by the SEC, which is the regulator?" And truthfully, I could say, "No, not the SEC." I was paltering, so I was trying to give him a hint. Not the SEC. And he said, "Okay, I just had to make sure you weren't wearing a wire. Sorry about that." He starts telling me everything.

33:12 Of course, it wasn't recorded. And the FBI later would say, "We can't use anything because it was a it wasn't recorded." That guy was actually never charged. I couldn't believe it. He was one of the worst actors. So, they arrested 81 people. There was another two dozen that I I was shocked weren't even arrested.

33:29 Oh my goodness. So this is just rampant. Yeah. How do you think it is today? Um today I think it's better. You know, I've been sharing the story for compliance training for nine years, so hopefully it's it's better. But I I would be surprised if 20 hedge fun people wearing handcuffs today in New York City. But I think it just um what I see is like the new behavior is often ahead of like the stock market police or the regulator police. So today with prediction markets, you know, a couple weeks ago, we saw somebody make $4 million making a bet that uh we were going to get uh uh the Venezuela dictator. And so that was somebody who they think had information. So I think insider trading like it's one of the oldest economic crimes ever. It goes all the way back to the founding of the New York Stock Exchange like in the 1790s, the first stock there was insider trading. So it's like the longest

34:19 economic crime. I just think it goes to new prediction markets. I think that's a wide open area for insider trading if they want to bring cases. Um what happens today too is the bad actors and the stocks are more like organized crime sometimes whereas my case the woman calls me I trade that's an easy one. The harder ones are maybe even involving uh hacking or cyber security where uh information is stolen from uh public companies and traded on by organized networks. The SEC's budgets maybe $2 billion to prosecute. But when you have all these bad actors in the world potentially doing this, it just becomes an issue of resources. So the easy cases are brought the much more complicated cases. Sometimes there's just not a push to to go for those cases. What about when you see people tracking like politicians and what they're doing? I mean that see it it seems like it would be illegal but their their track records

35:16 of their net worths growing a ton when their salary is you know 150 grand or whatever is wild like what do you think about that?

35:25 I think it's probably the most like disgusting be behavior. Um I see this when I speak at a conference they'll say they got you for four trades. What about XYZ politician? And it's on both sides of the aisle

35:36 for sure. and you'll see it. And what happens is um they'll they'll trade the stocks or the the spouse will trade the stocks like Paul Pelosi will trade the stocks with Nancy Pelosi. And there's a stock act. It's only a $250 fine they have to pay. And it's like, all right, let me do the math. I'll make $4 million on Nvidia call options to pay a $250 fine. And the Congress people can actually trade the stocks of the committees they're on. So, uh, Dan Krenshaw, he was on the the Meta Tik Tok thing a few years ago trading meta stock and he's on the committee like how is this even allowed? And so what I think has to happen and I hope one of the big things from my book when it comes out is to have a bigger platform to talk about these issues. We have to find a bill to pass to stop Congress from single stock trading. 86% of Americans agree on nothing. They actually agree in a poll that Congress should not be able to

36:28 trade single stocks. So, I hope I just have a bigger platform to actually write the bill and give it to a congressperson to get it through. What happens, Ryan, is they have these 25 bills the last 12 years to stop this. It never gets to the president's desk. Every bill has a stipulation. If you own shares in a private business and you're running for Congress, you have to sometime somehow monetize your private shares. And like, well, why would I run for for Congress if I have millions of dollars in a private business? And we want more business people, I think, and less career politicians. So, that has to be taken out. So, I actually have it all written up. Um, if I can just get it out there to people, I'm happy to happy to talk.

37:06 Oh, I feel like that one um would be popular with I think just everyday Americans. Uh we don't like the thought of people cheating. I mean, that's what it is. Uh and that doesn't feel good for everybody else. Um so, I I think that that makes a lot of sense. shifting again back to um leadership and personal excellence and I think when you're going through all this you you um start running is what I'm reading about right like like punishing your body in a way uh running lots and lots of miles you start with short races and you end up with really really long races h how did running and how has running helped you

37:48 yeah so at the time I got quite heavy for my frame I was always stand up until like classic guy mid30s or something and and not doing anything, it catches up. And um I I had a point where I was a stay-at-home dad in this in this saga and I was carrying my daughter up the stairs and out of breath and went to the doctor and of course I hadn't been a typical guy since college and now I'm 32 years old and he does the blood work. He says, "Oh my god, you're obese and what? Like I'm thin. No, you're obese and your blood work's awful. What's happening?"

38:14 And so I told him my whole story for the first time and and I told my wife and she again she said, "Hey, you know, I used to be a soccer player through high school. Like I'm going to sign you up. maybe you have some endurance. So, she signed me up for a 5k race. I think just even crossing the line at the 5k and she beat me pushing the jogging stroller. This lit a fire like, oh my gosh, I accomplished something. Like, I just felt I was in such a shame spiral, but then it became sort of a mania for me. 5ks went right to marathons and marathons became ultramarathons.

38:42 I got up to the point when I was writing, I went back at my running logs. There was weeks I was running 140 miles. I was downloading Olympic training plans for Runners World and saying, "I can do this." And I would run twice a day, but also Ryan, as I was thinking about this, I was using running as a crutch to not have to deal with like what I had to deal with. So Sue would come home, how's the job search going? I got a race to train for. I've got this ultra coming up. So in many respects, I got very fit and that was good and it got me out of my own head. U but also it wasn't helping me move forward. I was doing way too much of that. And um I wrote in the book this first 100 mile race I did was around a onem loop. You think about what kind of headsp space I was in to run 100 miles around a onem loop and I don't know like I read Dante's Inferno. It was probably one of those nine circles of

39:31 hell I was I was in right now and you cross you pass your car every time and by mile 78 everything's breaking down. I had Rabdo where your like brown ur like urine like really things are breaking down in my body. I said I'm done. Uh, I popped the trunk to the car. There was an air mattress. I said, "I'm going to just take a nap. My race is over." Uh, Sue had left a note there and she said, "We didn't sleep on you. You can't sleep on us." And so I closed the trunk, finished the 100 mile race. And we were talking earlier about how she even stayed with me. That was just proof point to me that she's going to stay with me, but only if I get my act together. And after that, I said, I'm never doing ultramarathons again because I was not doing it in a healthy in a healthy way. and now I just run for fitness. So, it's much more healthy relationship uh with running.

40:18 Seems like you're a guy of extremes. Is that accurate? Yes, that's 100%. That's what my wife says all the time. Yeah, that's right.

40:24 So, how does that help you and how does that hurt you? Um, even looking back, I was I was writing the book just I had this tremendous ambition coming out of from Georgia, like unbridled ambition. Uh, you know, I applied to this Ivy League college. Nobody from my high school ever went to an Ivy League college. And then I got deferred and I started making up, you know, business clubs. I was the president of just to just to get in. So I had this unbridled ambition that eventually k caught up with me in my career. Um today I would say I'm much more aware of that. And so I try to check myself when I'm getting a little bit too crazy about the newest thing. Um whatever that is for me. Um and so I just try to have a little bit more balance in my life. But I also I'm of two minds because I think a very balanced life is boring and I want to have something that I'm really obsessive about, but I don't want it to be the

41:17 detriment to my other relationships or my other pursuit. So, it's an ongoing process I'm working through. Um, I run less and now I'm into masters boxing and this is just something new for me. Like combat sports and Tom did not mix. So, I've never ever thrown a punch in my life. And I, you know, boxing, you learn how to do all that. But I I I have a better relationship just I guess with my new sports or my new endeavors to try to have some some balance, but also to to be challenged. Like there's nothing like doing hard things because you learn so much about yourself. So that ultramarathon there was negatives, but I also learned so much about myself that I can do things. And maybe when it got to the point in the book where I had to start a speaking business because we were running out of money, I said, I can do this. I can actually accomplish things because I put my body through through that. So, it's it's trying to

42:03 find a balance, but I don't have a great answer. How does how does doing I'm a firm believer in this, so I want to hear from your perspective, but I think doing hard things um can create uh portable lessons, meaning you could take what you learned from whether it's a marathon, ultramarathon, getting punched in the face regularly as you're doing now. Uh how how does that help you? How is that portable to other areas of life?

42:31 I think it just it shows me that no no challenge is is in insurmountable. And so I'm always looking for I just like the the growth that I feel um when I try to take on something that seems insurmountable. Like I told my running group, you know, guys, I'm tired of training for marathons. I think I want to get into something else. Oh, do you want to go cycling, Tom? No, I think I want to get punched in the face. What? like yeah because that's going to make me that is the most uncomfortable situation I could ever imagine being in.

42:58 But then the learnings from that it's a little bit um like a like not a drug but a little bit like okay what's the next what's the next hit I can go after to have that that feeling of just accomplishing something or just taking on something. So, it's interesting that we're talking about this because I don't really think I have a fully developed idea in terms of what this is going to lead to, but I just know I feel like I learn and grow a lot as a person. I just can't be status quo not challenging myself. Uh, are you ever scared though?

43:29 I mean, you wore a wire a lot. Do do you ever kind of look over your shoulder and say, "Hey, you know, I know this isn't Sopranos or Good Fellas, but I don't know. That's what I think of when I think of wires." you you ever have those feelings?

43:43 Um, I was concerned. So, back to the the Tipper X story. I did this for two years and eventually I didn't know it was leading anywhere. Classic FBI agents, no feedback. One uh in 2009, they said, "Turn on CNBC, Tom." 20 people are in handcuffs. And in the middle of the Wall Street Journal, all their names are out except for one name. And they called that name Tipper X. I didn't know I was Tipper X. I'm an analyst, so I figured it out. Oh, it's probably me. And so I was scared that day, Ryan, because I thought these people are of means. I mean, they could pay somebody 5,000 bucks to do something bad to me and mean nothing to them. And and I got some threatening my name became released two months later. I got some threatening calls, emails. I always fored those to the FBI to to to look into and they said, "Oh, you're fine." So, I actually just just trusted them. Um I sometimes Google people in these cases and most

44:33 people actually, it's interesting, have scrubbed anything bad about them. There's a way, I guess, to do that now off the Google. And I get these reputation management emails all the time now from AI bots. Mr. Harden, we found something bad about you on the internet. For a certain price, I'm sure they would take it off. I have some fun. I reply and say, here's tipperx.com. Here's all the bad stuff. What do we do? And they couldn't figure out with them because why not own it? Like why not try to help people? I can't change the past, but I can have a windshield mentality where I'm only looking forward and not in the rearview mirror. And actually, like a lot of people in their 20s do stupid stuff now. Maybe not to this degree, but now in my 40s, I can look back and say there's actually a lot of lessons I can learn. We mentioned with my kids, why not just embrace it rather than try to scrub it off the internet?

45:19 In writing the book, one of the big things I figured out was the integrity gap between we are so focused on our reputations, whether it's social media or companies have reputation management they spend millions on when we often neglect our character. And in reading Stan uh Stan Mcrist's book last year on character, he talks about that more. And I thought, "Oh my goodness, I would love to have Stan read my book." Um I cold emailed him. uh 18 hours later he he or 28 hours later he responded he had read the whole thing and gave me a phenomenal endorsement. It was just just an amazing moment for my life. Kind of a full circle moment in my life to be able to get uh you know somebody of that status to actually read the manuscript and understand it. So that's something uh I call the integrity gap in the book. Your reputation is what people think you are.

46:06 Your character is what you are in that gap. Those rationalizations we talked about often fill fill that gap and try to close the gap, you know, over time.

46:14 When you think about your character, what do you what are some of the things you do intentionally to to live and lead a high character life?

46:25 So, one of the things I'm very attuned to is anytime today I'm rationalizing a decision because I went through that in a very negative way uh as a young man. And so when my wife and I have big decisions to make or even little things, I have like a rationalization journal. So I don't really call it a daily journal because it's not daily, but I'll write those down and maybe once a month reflect on those and why did this pop into my head? What did I do about that? And what can I learn from it? And that's just checking myself um you know in terms of everyday decisions because I know even having gone through this I'm still susceptible of going down another type of slippery slope. Hopefully it's not a federal crime but it could be something else in our life with our family. And if I'm not just sort of meditating on that a little bit and thinking about those rationalizations, I think for me that's going to just

47:18 improve my character, you know, over time or just make me more attuned to that those passing thoughts, you know, in my head. Um, g getting back to the leadership part, let's say you were teaching a class uh at a at an Ivy League school like you went to and it was it was titled um being an effective leader, right? You've learned from ineffective leaders or people leaders with low character. Now that you've had this exposure and these experiences, I would love to hear what are some of the the topics of that class you'd be teaching of being an effective leader. What would what would be on that syllabus?

47:59 I think for me, um, some of the most effective leaders I've had the opportunity to engage with their teams, I would say they're almost like servant leaders where everybody can speak up. Hey, I'm just another person at the company. Leadership is not so much by the title as it is by just how the person uh behaves. So I would just say these are, you know, this is these are my mandates for the company, but hey, please speak up if you have questions or disagreements. We're all on the same team here. You have to create that psychological safety inside the organizations so people can actually check you. And as I do in my workshops, we'll just workshop this where a leader has a new goal and then the table, one table um works as their biggest competitor. So how are they going to uh challenge that? And then one table works as like the junior employees challenging that. And so we go around the tables, we

48:48 have them challenge the leader and it's a control safe environment. And that my hope is that actually sort of changes behavior uh going forward in in a good way. And also going back to our earlier conversation about what culture is, it's not what you say. You know, even us as parents, our kids actually see what we do, not what we say. And it's the exact same thing. Um what your behaviors are as a leader, what behaviors you're rewarding. and it's an advising not what you say, it's what you do.

49:16 I love that that element of rewarding the ones who are doing it right. Um, especially in corporate America, putting where your money where your mouth is. Um, and when I see companies that uh, one of the companies I I work with called Insight Global, it's it's cool that I just thought of them when it comes to this. They do this giant Titan trip. And to be a Titan, it has nothing to do with your financial performance. It has everything to do with living out the company's shared values. And they spend an insane amount of money on this this Titan trip. It just happened. So, it's top of mind. I was talking with one of the leaders who was there who were there. And it's it's amazing to see these people celebrated for living up to the shared values. And I think that's something all companies can learn from is that's legitimately putting millions and millions of dollars behind something that doesn't

50:12 necessarily have any. Now, I bet those people probably do well and and add revenue to the company because they're living out the values, but that's not why they're there. They're there specifically because of that. I think all companies, and I'd be curious to hear what you think about this, I all companies would be better served if they really care about high character and living out those values of doing things like that where you're honoring those people who live them out.

50:38 I think that's 100% correct. You can't just be uh again ambiguous messages or just focused on short-term performance. Um just focus on, you know, what what the dollar goal is. You have to understand how the business was you know made how what was behind the the performance. Um you also have to I think as a leader too share your own sort of uh ethical um dilemmas that you've worked through in your career because we've all been in situations where we could make the decision to go left or right and then how did you work through that as a leader you have to be but that also takes vulnerability and sometimes people don't want to be too vulnerable in front of their their people but I think that makes you more endearing and a better leader to actually share your own uh either fallacies or flaws or just you know decisions you made or bet mistakes or bad decisions you made through your career because then it's

51:22 all learning for employees but I think you're correct. We can't just and because I came from financial services, I think there's so much more focus on what's the number, what's the revenue, what are we producing for clients, and not so much a discussion as to how we how do we actually get there? Because how you get there is sort of like the sustainability of your career. If you're just focused on the short term, just the numbers, you have the opportunity to potentially get in a situation like me. It could be a totally different facts and circumstances, but it could be the same type of slippery slope. I was reading the end of your book and uh a business school professor calculated you would have made $23 million if you'd stayed on the hedge fund path and your your daughters joke with you about it.

51:59 Um you're on a cruise ship and you and you're right like I but I ended up with something better. What what what is that?

52:08 Yeah, something better is I I ended up kind of not not with the life I had planned for. I had planned my whole life, you know, coming out of high school, Ivy League, hedge funds. That was all the plan that was to be a hedge fund billionaire like the people I read about in magazines. And then in the end, I got something better because it's not it's not about the status. It's not about the money. It's about really just who I am with my family, with my relationships now. And it's not so much about status and money. I mean it it I I speak at that professor's class every year and it's good for the students to see that but it does make my stomach turn. I mean a human being it's not uh you know not comfortable to see that every time but it's a good example for the students because me personally on those four trades I made $46,000 and the students all look at me so 23 million $46,000 to throw your career away. Why'd

53:03 you do it? And you know we walk through all the the rationalizations but I think today that's kind of where I am. you know, my my anybody in your 40s, your your priorities change from your 20s, but I just have a a longer view on things now. And one of the most important books I read in this process was Road to Character by David Brooks. And he talks about eulogy virtues and resume virtues. And I realized, wow, in my 20s, I was just thinking about those resume virtues, how much money this year, the next job, the next stepping stone. And I never I never was content to just say I'm in a good place now. I was always striving. And I never thought about the eulogy virtues. is what are people going to say about we talked about character at the end when it's all over because we all leave one way will people still be talking about four trades about 29-year-old Tom or whenever the day comes for me will people obviously say

53:52 you know something about the eulogy you know the eulogy virtues is something I think about to today now in my life

53:58 the book uh is called wired on wall street the rise and fall of tipper x one of the FBI's most prolific informants Tom thanks so much for being here. Where would you send my viewers, listeners to learn more about you online?

54:13 Thanks, Ryan. Uh, tipperx.com. I just found out from the US patent office. I've have a trademark now on Tipperx, so there can be no more Tipperxes out there. Uh, that was kind of them. And I'm very active on LinkedIn writing u not just sharing my story, but just sharing a lot what we talked about today, Ryan, about slippery slopes. Just I hope leaders can read my little newsletter on LinkedIn and get something from it every week. I try to write every Monday.

54:34 Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you and your team sending me over uh early copies of the book. Um I had not heard of the story prior to to this and I just thought, "What is this?" Uh so it was really cool to see that you just kind of lay it all out there. I appreciate that very much. I think that's it was eye opening and enlightening and the fact that also that you're super vulnerable with all of it just willing to share for the benefit of others and helping and certainly you're building a career and and and and getting after it but I I found that to be endearing and helpful and it seems like you're as straightforward as it gets. So thanks so much for being here man. I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress man.

55:15 Absolutely. Thanks for having me around. Thank you.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "He Wore a Wire 40+ Times for the FBI | Tom Hardin Tipper X"?

Ryan Hawk (Host), Tom Hardin (Guest).

What is "He Wore a Wire 40+ Times for the FBI | Tom Hardin Tipper X" about?

The discussion centers on Tom Hardin, known as Tipper X, who became a key informant in Operation Perfect Hedge, the largest insider trading investigation in history. He shares his harrowing experiences cooperating with the FBI, the ethical dilemmas he faced, and the repercussions of decisions made in isolation within the high-stakes world of Wall Street.

What is mentioned in this Ryan Hawk episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Operation Perfect Hedge, Thomas Kovi Harden, FBI, Wall Street, New York City, New York, Raj Rajaratnam. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "He Wore a Wire 40+ Times for the FBI | Tom Hardin Tipper X"?

The episode runs 55 min; the transcript is about 11,854 words in 107 timestamped sections.

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