How to Get Honest Answers in Any Interview | Jake Tapper’s Interview Blueprint

What this episode is about

Jake Tapper shares insights on the art of interviewing, emphasizing the importance of asking the right questions to elicit honest and meaningful responses. He reflects on valuable lessons learned from renowned journalists and discusses the significance of resilience and structure in both media and leadership.

Key takeaways

• Staying in the game is key; rejection isn't the end but rather a pit stop on the journey.
• Negotiating for vacation days can yield more satisfaction than salary; mental health carries weight beyond dollars.
• In a news cycle dominated by chaos, it’s okay to miss a moment; another story will always emerge.
• A passion for your work is a gift; many endure jobs without joy—appreciate the thrill of your calling.
• During interviews, knowing when to pivot is an art; the best moments often come from embracing the unexpected.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Ryan Hawk (Host) · 25 min speaking
• Jake Tapper (Guest) · 37 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: ABC News, Reagan Library, Bill Weir, Diane Sawyer
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Race Against Terror, The Outpost, Original Sin, Eastern District
3. 20:00 – 30:00: The Outpost, ABC News
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Race Against Terror, Original Sin
5. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Original Sin, Race Against Terror

Notable quotes from "How to Get Honest Answers in Any Interview | Jake Tapper’s Interview Blueprint"

• An example for Ted Cppel one time saw on the in-house channel a pilot that ABC News was working on with me and Bill Weir in the period when CPP was kind of being pushed out the door by ABC.

  about ABC News · at 1:29

• Cartoonist or whatever. like I would be watching it and I mean I remember I have a very vivid memory of moderating or co-odderating the Republican debate in 2015 at the Reagan…

  about Reagan Library · at 4:55

• Know, calm it down and like offer a substantive critique. And I have heard those even there's a guy named Elon Green who's a who's a really gifted writer and he used to be very…

  about Elon Green · at 10:39

• Used and I in the Biden book that I co-wrote with Alex Thompson of Axios, original sin, we have that Orwell quote in the opening of the book because it's like it was right…

  about Original Sin · at 12:48

• Yeah. It's called Race Against Terror: Chasing an Al-Qaeda Killer at the Dawn of the Forever War. And you said I was like curious like how this book happened as I was digging in. You're at this.

  about Race Against Terror · at 13:39

• Division has their own, terrorism cases that they do. Like Southern District has Europe and Eastern District has Eastern District Africa. So he says, Yeah, we've heard of Spin…

  about Eastern District · at 16:54

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Elon Green — Person · Referenced critic (constructive) · 1 mention · first at 10:44
  Cited as a writer who criticized the guest for insufficient climate coverage; used as an example of constructive criticism influencing newsroom priorities.
• Diane Sawyer — Person · Referenced mentor figure · 1 mention · first at 1:15
  Listed among the people the guest dedicated his book to, credited with providing professional lessons in journalism and leadership.
  So, you opened your book, you dedicated it to 12 people, including Diane Sawyer, Ted Cppel, Charlie Gibson, Peter Jennings, and you write, quote, Thank you for the lessons. Yeah.
• Bill Weir — Person · Referenced colleague/collaborator · 1 mention · first at 1:43
  Appears in an anecdote about an ABC News pilot involving the guest and Weir, observed by Ted Koppel; used to illustrate learning and professional growth.
  An example for Ted Cppel one time saw on the in-house channel a pilot that ABC News was working on with me and Bill Weir in the period when CPP was kind of being pushed out the door by ABC.
• Charlie Gibson — Person · Referenced mentor figure · 1 mention · first at 1:17
  Named as one of the ABC News leaders/journalists thanked in the guest’s dedication list for lessons learned.
  So, you opened your book, you dedicated it to 12 people, including Diane Sawyer, Ted Cppel, Charlie Gibson, Peter Jennings, and you write, quote, Thank you for the lessons. Yeah.
• Peter Jennings — Person · Referenced mentor figure · 1 mention · first at 1:20
  Included in the dedication list; invoked as part of the guest’s professional lineage and standards in TV news.
  So, you opened your book, you dedicated it to 12 people, including Diane Sawyer, Ted Cppel, Charlie Gibson, Peter Jennings, and you write, quote, Thank you for the lessons. Yeah.

Books & papers

• Race Against Terror — Book · Primary recommendation · 5 mentions · first at 13:36
  The book is discussed as a recent work by the speaker, detailing a real-life thriller about chasing an Al-Qaeda killer.
• The Outpost — Book · Referenced work · 6 mentions · first at 13:56
  Mentioned as a previous book by the speaker about Afghanistan, which led to the story for 'Race Against Terror'.
  Talks to you and says they know a guy Dave Roller who's a US veteran who you wrote about in the Outpost, which amazing book has got made into other stuff as well. how did this…
• Original Sin — Book · Referenced work · 4 mentions · first at 12:53
  A book co-written by the speaker about the Biden administration, mentioned in the context of political analysis.

Companies & orgs

• CNN — Company · Business focus · 2 mentions
  CNN is mentioned as the network where the speaker works and discusses the challenges of news coverage.
• ABC News — Company · Business focus · 4 mentions · first at 1:39
  Mentioned as a previous employer where the speaker started his career and learned valuable lessons.
• Eastern District — Company · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at 16:46
  Mentioned in the context of handling terrorism cases in Africa.
• Southern District — Company · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at 16:58
  Mentioned in the context of handling terrorism cases in Europe.
  Division has their own, terrorism cases that they do. Like Southern District has Europe and Eastern District has Eastern District Africa. So he says, Yeah, we've heard of Spin…

Places & events

• Reagan Library — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at 5:06
  Mentioned as the location where the speaker moderated a Republican debate.
• Semi Valley — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at 5:06
  Mentioned as part of the location where the Reagan Library is situated.
  A very vivid memory of moderating or co-odderating the Republican debate in 2015 at the Reagan Library in Semi Valley, California. And there's like 11 candidates there. Trump's…
• World War II — Event · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 12:13
  Mentioned in the context of a George Orwell quote about the war.
  Writing about the fact that the Japanese and the Germans he you know he was writing during World War II about the fact that the Japanese and the Germans were going to lose the…
• Tacoma Park — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at 10:10
  Mentioned in a hypothetical scenario about criticism in the news media.
  The social media age when you when anybody when a waitress at a you know at a Denny's in Tacoma Park can or in Tacoma, Washington, I should say. like what can reach anybody…

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 The average person can have an impact on news. I guess it comes down to this. What's the most important thing in this interview? That is the stuff that is the easiest to ignore the stuff right in front of your face. You write quote, "Thank you for the lessons." What are some of the the most useful leadership lessons you've learned from talking to some of the most powerful people in the history of our world? So much of life is is rejection. You just can't let that be the final word.

0:33 Part of winning is just staying in the game. It feels like you're speeding up. I'm a very ambitious newsman who wants to be covering stories.

0:41 What is your process to come up with questions? I have a very vivid memory of um moderating the Republican debate in 2015. It's having a debate and a discussion with really smart people who are considering all the things that you and I are talking about. For any aspiring writers out there, I'll give you two bits of advice. One, have a really good structure. Then number two is have a good

1:10 Jake. Man, it is great to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

1:15 So, you opened your book, you dedicated it to 12 people, including Diane Sawyer, Ted Cppel, Charlie Gibson, Peter Jennings, and you write, quote, "Thank you for the lessons." Yeah.

1:26 What are what are some of the lessons that you've learned from them? An example for um Ted Cppel um one time uh saw on the in-house channel a pilot that ABC News was working on with me and Bill Weir uh in the in the period when CPP was kind of being pushed out the door by ABC. Um, and uh, they were going to and Night Line was it was questionable how long it's going to last and Bill and I did a pilot and Ted saw it and uh, I don't think he was particularly impressed with it and uh, probably thought we were being a little glib. I looking back on it, we were definitely being a little glib and he took me to lunch and he said, "Remember, you can always tell them no.

2:15 You can always tell them no." Uh, and that was a lesson that obviously here I am 20 years later or whatever. That that is something to remember. The other thing the other note is um when you're done negotiating the salary uh put as much vacation day in there because they don't they don't understand the importance of it because it's not a monetary value. So get as much as many vacation days in there as possible. That's another one.

2:40 Is it hard to take days off though? Like in your world? It is. And and it's in the Trump era too, especially because every day because he, you know, whether you like him or not, uh he makes a lot of news. He creates a lot of news. Um and um you know, it was something that we had to learn in our in his first term. And I still think it's probably questionable as to how much we've learned it in our second, but just if you miss this news emergency, there's going to be another one next week. Like it's okay if you miss it. And uh anyway, it but and and for and for people metabolistically built like me as a as a news person, it is difficult to be away from a story because you want to be covering the story. You want to be involved. It's a it's it's a drive. I had a a hot mic moment when I was covering the summit in Alaska. And one I'm not embarrassed about at all is we were having technical problems and then somebody was saying

3:39 like, "Okay, we're going to come to you. Are you ready?" And I'm like, "I'm fine. Give me back my show." You know, like, "Let's go. I'm going, you know," and some of the um, you know, uh, click hunters out there thought this was some big gaff. I'm like, "What's I'm a very ambitious, aggressive newsman who wants to be covering stories. This is not any revelation." But anyway, yes. So, it is difficult. I say that like as in a good way as in it's kind of cool to have a job where you want to do it. You know what I mean? Like a lot of people don't have that luxury. I feel like I do and and it it feels like you do where you have the a job where like I want to do it, man. Like part of the reward is that I get to do this really cool. It's hard, right? And you get criticized all the time, you know? That's part of the deal.

4:21 But it but it's got to feel rewarding and like you've earned it to have a job that you want to show up and do it every day. It is a gift and I know this because I have a lot of friends who have jobs that they love and I have a lot of friends who have jobs that they do not love. And uh I am very lucky that I have a job that you know when all is said and done, forgetting the criticism and the difficulties of the news media and this era and blah blah blah, it's still just such a thrill to be able to cover this stuff and I would be watching it if I were something else, a screenwriter or cartoonist or whatever. like I would be watching it and I mean I remember I have a very vivid memory of um moderating or co-odderating the the Republican debate in 2015 at the Reagan Library in Semi Valley, California. And there's like 11 candidates there. Trump's there, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, blah blah

5:16 blah. And like the the most of like I was like I have the best seat in the world. I mean I was also asking the questions but I was just like this is so cool just to be here just to be part of this is historic moment and that was you know I've moderated more consequential debates since obviously but um yeah

5:38 how do you this is a selfish question how do you when you're preparing for something like that or just a big interview what is your process to come up with questions and then how do you decide okay do I go to the next question or do I stay in this moment and ask a follow-up? I'm just curious about how you approach that dance because it's something I think about literally all the time.

6:02 Yeah, I mean, and it is the it is the big challenge with interviews and with debates, it's even more challenging. um which is you know you have 20 topics and they're all really important and if I do a follow-up on this that means I don't get to the question on veterans or I don't get to the questions on the environment you know and when is it worth it um I should start off by saying like any interview I do any debate I moderate you know it starts with this incredible team of really really smart CNN producers and writers I mean just I just a fantastic team and uh you know they they don't get enough credit um for for that work. Uh and that's not false humility. That's legit. Like these are really smart people and you know and we have debates about what works and what doesn't work and what's the thinking. Um but it's it's having a debate and a discussion with really smart people who are considering all the things that you

6:59 and I are talking about. Um, and then obviously there's um when there's an interview uh with somebody like really of note or it's like a big moment, we talk about um what like what's the most important thing in this interview? Like what what do we want to come away from this interview? because I think it's very it the easiest thing in the world is just to have a list of six questions and just ask each one and and and just like there are six topics blah blah blah what do we do but um you know it's and it's a balance and you just have to figure it out and you don't always get it right and there's the question of factchecking too and in you do that in a debate do you do that in an interview you know what is somebody's opinion that like look they're entitled to think that Joe Biden was a horrible president or Donald Trump's a horrible president like that's their opinion like I'm not going to am I

7:52 there to push back on that? Am I there to stand up for facts? Am I there to say, "Well, the other side would say blah blah blah." And it's all just, you know, subjective and imperfect and you're never going to please everybody. And you just try to do the best job you can.

8:06 How do you deal with the criticism? Is it do you just block it out? Do you read it? Uh combination of things? Like how do you handle all of the criticism?

8:15 Well, there's a lot of it. Um, and I try to filter out the stuff that is just personal attacks or from people that are just going to hate no matter hate what I do no matter what it is from the left and the right. And I'm one of these folks that gets it from both sides. Um,

8:34 which is probably a good sign. I mean, it can be and not necessarily, not inherently, but I

8:39 Well, it might not feel good, but I think it shows that you're trying to be impartial. And I know you you're probably criticized on either side saying you're not, but I would imagine that that's

8:51 a good thing, right? Yes. Okay. I I think so. I mean, I guess it comes down to this.

8:57 The people like very few of my critics are people that I actually care what they think.

9:03 Yep. And the people that I care what they think, I'm sure they have notes here and there, but folks who understand like I'm just trying to be a good faith operative here. I'm not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican. I don't have any ideological bias other than facts are important. Decency is important. But beyond that, like, you know, I'm just trying to like figure out like I don't have I don't know what the answer to the war on Ukraine is. I don't know what the answer to the tax code is, etc., etc. Um, but I guess anyway to answer your first question, I I do I do listen to criticism and I do read the criticism and like you know I I think that's something for people out there because everybody is an expert on the news media. I think when you are just relentlessly critical of somebody, me or whoever, Noro Donald, Chuck Todd, whatever, um, those are just two people I came up with. um then you

9:56 people stop listening to you because they're like, "Well, you hate everything I do, so who cares?" And constructive criticism actually can be effective in the social media age when you when anybody when a waitress at a you know at a Denny's in in Tacoma Park can or in Tacoma, Washington, I should say. um like what can reach anybody, you know, you can theoretically reach anybody and I think constructive criticism or you know I I think it actually can be much more effective than you're a hack, you suck, I hate you, Joe Biden's the best, Donald Trump's the best, whatever. Like you actually can have a much you actually can have an impact if you, you know, calm it down and like offer a substantive critique. And I have heard those even um there's a guy named Elon Green who's a who's a really really gifted writer and he used to be very critical, relentlessly critical of me for not covering climate change enough.

10:56 But he was right. I wasn't. And I listened to him. And you know, I think it shocked him when I would like cover the environment and like say, "Hey, just wanted to make sure you saw this." I because I respected him. I I I didn't I didn't care for all of his tweets, but but but I mean I understand I understood where he was coming from.

11:15 Yeah. So, I mean, I guess the point is just like you can like the average person can have an impact on news coverage. Hey, I saw your story. Have you thought about covering this? Is much more effective than you're ignoring blah blah blah. Like, odds are the person doesn't even know about blah blah blah.

11:32 Right. Right. You've had a um I'm curious about this pinned tweet. It's since 2017 to see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle from George Orwell. Why have you left that as your pinned tweet since 2017?

11:51 Just in in full disclosure, I do when I have a book to sell, I usually replace it for like that month or two. Um but um but but generally speaking that is my pin tweet because I think it is the some of the most um I I just thought it was really profound. Orwell Orwell was writing about the fact that um the Japanese and the Germans he he you know he was writing during World War II about the fact that the Japanese and the Germans were going to lose the war and uh that was something that the Japanese and German people did not see because they were constantly being lied to uh by their leaders. Um but the evidence was all there and it's just a constant reminder for me. I mean, it's it's advice honestly that I wish I had taken more seriously when the evidence of Biden losing his acuity started really presenting itself in 2023. It was right there. I I mean I used and I in the Biden book that I

12:50 co-wrote with um Alex Thompson of Axios, original sin, we have that um that Orwell quote in the in the opening of the book because it's like it was right there in front of our noses. Um and then we were just being gaslit by Democrats and the Biden administration, but it was right there. And I think that is the stuff that is the easiest to ignore the stuff right in front of your face. It's like I don't know what the example is going to be if if maybe more than one in the Trump era. Maybe like all the money that is, you know, the people around him are making off of crypto or whatever. I don't know. It's all right there. Uh and we, you know, it's just a question of are we actually looking and seeing it?

13:28 Yeah. You uh you mentioned when you have a book um coming out and it's crazy you have one so quickly. That's why when I was talking with your team like he's got another one. This one's called

13:37 Race Against Terror. Yeah. It's called Race Against Terror: Chasing an Al-Qaeda Killer at the Dawn of the Forever War. And you said I I was like curious like how this book happened as I was digging in. You're at this paintball birthday party for your son Jack and and somebody says comes up and talks to you and says they know a guy uh Dave Roller who's a US veteran who you wrote about in the Outpost, which amazing book has got made into other stuff as well. Um how did this book come about from this paintball birthday party? So, first of all, let me just say like I've been working on Race Against Terror since like 2021, 2022. Um, so, uh, the Biden book was a rush book was like a, you know, that I was like I put everything aside in November, December, January, February, worked on that. But this book was almost done before that.

14:22 Gotcha. Except except for editing. So, this this was a multi-year process. So, so this guy comes over and he starts Well, you know, so we have a paintball party. you have only girls or do you have do you have Okay, so you're you're probably not having paintball parties. So,

14:36 I mean, I'd be down for it. I think maybe a couple of them would do it, but uh we have not had that birthday party yet actually.

14:42 So, we we had uh so we had a paintball party a period when my son was really into paintball and it's like, you know, I live in DC. It's like an hour outside of DC. So, I you know, when I do the invitation, I I'm like, and you can, you know, parents stick around. I have pizza. I have drinks. like so they don't have to make four trip four 1-hour trips, right? It's just, you know, just stick around for a couple hours, hang out with the grown-ups. So, one of the dads comes over to me and he says, "Oh, yeah, you know, Dave Roller from The Outpost. I know him." I'm like, "Oh." And we started talking about The Outpost, which is a book I wrote about Afghanistan in 2012. And I said, "Yeah, you know, that book is really tough to write because the military either they keep horrible records or they don't just don't share them." And I was doing this the history of this one outpost for three and a half

15:27 years and like it was really tough and like they were not you know like I had to figure out who was in each unit like I mean they just don't help. It's a shame really honestly because it was you know it's a very pro-soldier book. Anyway uh anyway so I said like they military keeps horrible records and he says tell me about it and then he tells me this incredible story. It starts off on the deck of an Italian cruise ship that's been commandeered during the Arab Spring. Berlusone, the prime minister of Italy, has commandeered the ship to bring all these refugees from the southern Italian islands to the mainland because it's like a huge refugee crisis in the Mediterranean that summer. And there's an Italian guard on the ship and this 5 foot6 African guy, you know, in a in a ship full of Tunisians and Libyans, asks him for water and he gives him some water and he notices that the guy has bullet wounds. And he says, "Where'd you

16:20 get those?" And the guy's like, basically, he um I'm a fighter with al-Qaeda. I got them fighting Americans. So, they take this guy to another room and they interrogate him and then they they get to and the guy starts freaking out and then they sedate him and they bring him to the Italian mainland and they call the Americans. Uh they call the FBI. They're like, "We have this guy named Spin Ghoul. He says his name is Spin Ghoul. Have you heard of him?" And the Americans, so this is now the Eastern District of New York, the Brooklyn uh prosecutors uh who are in charge of terrorism in Africa. each each um division has their own, you know, terrorism cases that they do. Like Southern District has Europe and Eastern District has Eastern District Africa. So he says, "Yeah, we've heard of Spin Ghoul and they've heard of him. Not you and I haven't heard of them, but they have because uh of all the detainees in

17:09 GMO." This is 2011. So all these detainees in GMO are talking and they've heard of Spinul. And what happens is um because this is the Obama era, nobody knew was going to GMO. The Italians say, "Okay, well, take him. We don't want him. Uh, we can't hold we can hold him for a month or two for disrupting stuff on the boat, but he didn't do anything to us." And Spin Ghoul is there like confessing and saying like, "I killed Americans in Afghanistan and I tried to blow up the US embassy in Nigeria and blah blah blah." And the Americans have basically a ticking clock to build a case that will that will stand up in a court of law um you know against a reasonable doubt of his innocence and before the Italians free him. So that it's a race against time to prove that this random guy from Nishair who has all these wild claims and there's no evidence that anything he did, he can't even tell you what date

18:09 the attack was in Afghanistan. Um they to lock him up because if he really is who he says he is, he's you know he's a mass murderer and wants to kill as many million like he loves the 1998 embassy bombings. So it's a race against terror. They have to race and build a case against this guy before the Italians free him. And it's just this incredible story that Dave Bitkauer, who's one of the prosecutors, who was also the dad of one of my son's friends, tells me just about this like and then we did this and then we found this guy and then we tracked down a guy who took this Quran off the battlefield and then we sent it to Quanico and it had a fingerprint, you know, just and it's just this CSI story but real.

18:50 Wow. How are you doing this? Like all this research and writing and listening to stories while at the same time being a full-time like head of CNN. I mean, how do you how do you balance between and husband and a dad? Like, how are you balancing all these things?

19:10 Well, um I mean, I'm obviously a little nuts. I mean, I that's got to be part of it. But, uh, like very wired and driven and like always researching and interested in stuff and just always was like that. Um, and you know, when I was a kid and I would be in the library a lot and and reading stuff and just like if I liked something or thought something was interesting. I mean, like, I'm just thinking like in 1981, I was really into the TV show MASH and then I went to the local library and then I was looking up every article I could read about MASH on microfich.

19:48 People out there don't even know what microfich is, but like it's you know it's like every Newsweek from 1977 is on this file and like you I mean it's just always how I've been wired just to like I find something interesting and I want to find out everything I can about it and thankfully now I have an outlet for it that's not just a nerd sitting in a library reading microfiche about Alen Alda like I'm actually you know doing research and this book was really interesting to write because there were just so many stories about it and what happens is then you become more of an expert almost than some of the other players because the prosecutors for example don't really know everything that the FBI is doing. The FBI doesn't do know know everything that the soldiers went through. The soldiers don't know everything that the gold star families went through and on and on.

20:35 actually end up being the expert on this whole thing because you know enough of all of the stories and then you can and then you just figure out how okay now how do I present this to a reader that is the most interesting and compelling way to bring it to them. Uh, and that was that was the thinking of this book when I you know I'm gonna I want to write it like a thriller except it's 100% true. And you know when I would tell people about the book like halfway through that friends of mine they'd be like is this wait this is fiction or non-fiction because because I've written some novels too. I said no this is all true every every bit of this happened.

21:13 That's what's wild when you read it you're like how is this real life Jake? One of the things I've seen amongst leaders who have sustained excellence over time is that thing you just talked about is they have this kind of peculiar desire to chase down their curiosities with great rigor. They just go and they go and they keep going and then they find other things they're curious about and then they go deep and before you know it you've written a ton of books and you've done been on, you know, talked to presidents and done all this crazy stuff because it seems like this one central theme of your life is to chase down what you're really curious about. I just love to hear your thoughts on that kind of approach you bring to both your life and your career.

22:02 Well, I mean, I think the the main thing in my career, I think, has been hard work.

22:09 And whenever people um want like when young reporters want to know the key, you know, they I think I feel like sometimes they just want to hear like, oh, I'll hook you up with this agent and then everything will fall into place. And that's just it's just not how it is. Like um and I actually unbeknownst to me u had a philosophy that that I've since heard Steve Martin uh talk about when he talks about when young comedians come to him

22:40 with Charlie Rose that one that that famous interview with Charlie Rose. He says be so good that they can't ignore you.

22:46 Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. And and what I always tell them, I've said it many years, and nobody ever takes note of it because it's not the answer they wanted to hear. What they want to hear is here's how you get an agent, here's how you write a script, here's how you do this, here's But I always say, be so good, they can't ignore you. And I just think that if somebody's thinking, how can I be really good, people are going to come to you. that is when I was um a campaign reporter at ABC News. I started at ABC ABC in 2003. I wanted to be a campaign reporter in 2004. They did not give me a candidate.

23:25 Uh and then in 2008, by then I had earned, you know, through factchecking and being a congressional correspondent. then I was going to get um uh a candidate and I was competing like the my fellow ABC News correspondents were all of them just excellent in different ways. There was David Wright and Kate Snow and Dan Harris and there were just so many and they were just so good and I just I knew I had to be better than them in order to be the White House correspondent which is what I wanted. And but it wasn't a like I couldn't be smoother. I couldn't be prettier. I couldn't be a better broadcaster. I could work on all those things, but the one thing I could do is work harder. I could work harder than all of them. Uh and I could break more stories than all of them or try to anyway. And I could aspire to do that. Um, and I I had to be so good that even though maybe on a, you know, on a on a broadcasting level or an appearance

24:29 level or whatever, like I wouldn't be the number one pick, but I had to I had to be so good that like David Weston, the head of ABC News at the time, had to give it to me because otherwise he would look foolish. He would look bad. Like why would you not give it to him? Like he broke five stories or whatever. like I that that was always my philosophy. I had to just work harder and even if that meant, you know, um pissing off a lot of people, not internally, I mean, but like by breaking as many stories as possible. Back then, people had, you know, blogs.

25:05 Reporters had blogs and like I would if I couldn't get it on air, I would just put it on the blog. I mean, like, you know, and the blog just became like a place where I broke as many stories as possible. And I was just the point was I was just constantly working constantly.

25:19 I was going to ask you what what sacrifices did you make in order to be so good that you couldn't be ignored?

25:28 Well, I mean I'm sure there were a lot of sacrifices obviously. So this is 2007208. Um uh I'm sure well I know that I sacrificed time at home because I was on the road the whole year 2007208 uh covering the presidential campaign. My daughter was born in 2007. My son was born in 2009. So I I missed some important time there. Uh which sucks. Um but thankfully my wife understood that I was trying to build this career that would ultimately be able to provide for the family in a way that that um there would be like a a payoff for it at the end. Uh, I'm sure there were sharp elbows that needlessly provoked other people that, you know, that because I was younger and clumsier and whatever.

26:16 I'm sure I pissed off a lot of political operatives when I broke stories they didn't like or maybe broke them in such a way that I could have broken them better. I I you know I it's it's when you're constantly turning out work uh that's a risk unto itself because I mean especially if it's about politics something that's so

26:34 inherently controversial um so I there were a lot of sacrifices um uh but it was also just a lot of work and any single thing I've done of major significance in my view and I would I would say um aside from the TV B. Uh, I would say The Outpost. I would say that I wrote a story for The Atlantic about this guy that was one of my dads. My dad's a pediatrician, one of his former patients that he thought was in prison unjustly. And I wrote a story for The Atlantic about his case and ultimately that helped get him out of prison. He's he's a free man now. that CJ Rice and um and the Biden book, those are probably the most impactful nonTV things I've done. And every single one of them, people were telling me not to do it. H

27:27 every single one of them. I was told not to do the the the outpost. Um because I didn't have any expertise in military reporting, which I didn't. It's true. I didn't. And I you know, when I started that book, I'd never uh even been to Afghanistan. Uh I I you know I've gone I've been there twice now. But um anyway, it's just if it's it's it's it's been hard work and it's been following my curiosities even when people told me I'm not interested in that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to support you. Don't do that. That that's just that's been how it's worked. Uh for better or for worse. What's made you go in the face of that which is maybe called rejection or people telling you not to do it and I don't know if these are people that you trust and love and that love

28:20 not family but professional people no my wife has been my wife's incredible my wife supports everything I do um

28:26 um what has been I it's just the curiosity of wanting to know of of want of sensing project that was that was worthwhile.

28:37 Yeah. Um and figuring out that even if I didn't know enough about it that I that I could learn about like you know when I wrote before I wrote the outpost um I you know I I did I didn't have any experience covering war or I mean I guess I'd been to Iraq but but you know I didn't really have any major experience covering war or writing about these things. And I think it's the humility of accepting that I didn't know

29:07 Yeah. uh enough about these things. Like I you know when I was writing the when I was writing the outpost I would send chapters to people uh who were there who were experts. Um I found a couple guys who like one of them um had served in this part of Afghanistan with the state department. Another guy was a linguist who was an expert uh on this particular region in Afghanistan. It's called Nurristan. It's it's a where the man who would be king. It takes place that Ruddard Kipling book. It's like the Afghanistan of Afghanistan. It's like this incredibly isolated, dangerous place in Afghanistan. And um and they would come back with harsh criticism.

29:49 Really harsh criticism. And I came to value that so much because I it hadn't been published so it was okay.

29:56 Yeah. I could fix it. And you know they were they were unrelentingly harsh uh like I don't believe the story this seems so you like this is so ethnosentric how you're writing this you you know this is like white savior complex blah blah blah and I'm like great great thank you thank you for the feedback because you can fix it if it hasn't been published yet right

30:22 so I think that's also one of the things that's important is is having the humility to accept that I'm not an expert on any particular thing really. Uh I'm a journalist which means I try to be an expert on whatever I'm covering at that moment. But having having the modesty the legitimate humility of saying I don't know, you know what a battalion is, you know, versus a a company like explain that to me. um has been an important part of of the process. I think

30:57 I think this willingness to be a beginner. This willingness to show up in places where you're not the expert or you don't know everything of of what you're talking about is a superpower. I think it's a useful skill for leaders to have. And I think it is a skill because it take you got to be tough. You got to have some inborn confidence that's been created throughout your life. So, like I can show up and be a beginner. I've never done this. I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm willing to chase down my curiosity. I think more leaders would benefit from developing that skill. And that Jake, that leads me to another question I have that's leadership focus. So, you've interviewed presidents, generals, world leaders, and I'm sure there's there's lots of different things you've picked up from those conversations you've had. What are some of the the most useful leadership lessons you've learned from talking to

31:53 some of the most powerful people in the history of our world? I think the I think the um the humility part of it is really important and I don't know this some of this is from interviews, some of this is is just from observation. I mean, I've been a journalist now for Jesus 20 almost 30 years and like I think I have this theory called the Jar Jar Banks theory which is that great men or women I suppose but it's you it's a it's a criticism so it's more it's more applied to men. Um, the great people often achieve as much as they can to the point that they are able to remove from their inner circle anyone who tells them they're being an [ __ ] or making the wrong decision. They often do that. They often, you know, remove any critic from their inner circle.

32:51 And I call it the Jar Jar Banks theory. It's kind of a bad name, but it's because I think Jar Jar Binks is a horrible creation in the Star Wars movies and that somebody should have been there telling George Lucas, "Please don't put that Jamaican frog in the movie. It's it's a horrible idea." The movie still made $6 billion, so whatever. It's it's it's a fault. But but I think of it that way because it doesn't even matter about the success of uh the project per se as it is about the worth and the quality of the work. So, for instance, Joe Biden is a good example of somebody who by the end was surrounded by um his top aids and his family who did not um they were not honest about what was going on with him. I think uh there are a lot of presidents who have had that problem. I think there are a lot of you know I think I I think that that is the number one thing. It is very important to surround yourself with

33:49 people and not just a spouse uh who will tell you when you're, you know, uh airing uh as my wife without question does. Um but also your, you know, your executive producer, your chief of staff, your top a like you need people around you not just to keep you humble but to protect you from yourself. Mhm.

34:12 And I think that that is the most important lesson in leadership because I see it uh I see it violated all like every day all the time. Um and I mean it's just over and over and over people. You say why would they do that? Well, because they have removed every critic from their inner circle.

34:34 So they don't even have a clear view as to how they look or what this might look like. They don't have anybody like that. Um, and and this is, you know, not to beat up on Joe Biden, but this we this we we saw this in the in the when Alex and I wrote the Biden book, Original Sin, like that was something that we saw was um the removal of any skeptic from the White House. It is something that that in in Race Against Terror you don't see because these are incredibly collaborative people working and pushing and stress testing and also the guys the heroes of this of these books um are not of this book is not they are not like it's not the president it's not the attorney general it's like assistant US attorneys it's like people who are they are they are the ones to tell other people when they're screwing up. So because it's like upper mid-level people they don't have the hubris they have people on on top of them pushing down.

35:30 But I think that's a really really important um lesson and I see it violated all the time by university presidents, by you know, athletes.

35:41 Well, I I I've um I've seen this too and it's it's funny. I actually just had this conversation with my close group of friends, like the coaches I work with, and I I maybe point to an example of someone who is has kind of lost it, meaning they've surrounded themselves with Yes. men and women

35:58 and I'll say do not ever let that happen to me. I'll do my best to let that to to to do the same for you.

36:04 Who do you have in your life that does that? Who's it pushes back on? So I I work with a group of coaches and I think the num one of their number one skills not only for me but just in life is they are truth tellers. I think excellent coaches can see the truth and they're not afraid to tell to tell you and they're not afraid to say it. Now, a big part is they have to have this underlying care and love for you. Genuine care and love. Genuine. Because some people that are in your life are a little bit envious. They're a little bit jealous. I know you've got these people even if you don't want them, but because you've you got you you're a powerful person. You've risen up. And so, yes, hopefully you have those truth tellers.

36:44 It sounds like you do. But also, there are some of those that are kind of on the fringe or around that are like, "H, I don't know, man. I don't know if I I I like Jake, but do I love him?" You know, you want the people who love you and care for you and also will say, "Jake, dude, what are you doing here?" Like, right, you've lost it or you're just wrong or what you said last night, I don't know if that was the right way to go about it. What if you said it this way? And then you to say, "Ah, like I know he loves me and I appreciate that."

37:13 You know what I mean? Like I I assume like is that how you try to design your team where it's not only welcomed but encouraged to speak up to you to say, "Hey, I think I think we may maybe maybe approach that one wrong. We should maybe look at it like this."

37:29 Yeah. I mean, and I and I'm not um I'm not uh deluded enough to think that like the the power imbalance doesn't have an effect on whether or not people are are willing to say something,

37:40 right? um to me or to other people, but without question, I have um Yes. Without question, my executive producers and I go back and forth on stuff.

37:55 You guys fight like healthy fight. Yeah. I mean, I right now I'm thinking of our state, my State of the Union uh producer is this incredible executive prod. She's fantastic. She and I disagree. Like I would ra, you know, like I would like to have and this is just this is just a regular TV discussion, but like if it were up to me, I would do one interview for like half an hour and she would rather do two or three. And like, you know, this is a this is it's a television programming and also a journalistic debate. It's a discussion and then we you know, and we we lock horns on it. Um there's no right answer or wrong answer. Uh and um but we disagree on that. Um if there is a I mean she's look I and I value that. I don't want a yes person. I want somebody like you know we this is a fight and it's not a fight that it's a fight we continue to have because it's not like I'm right and she's wrong or vice versa.

38:54 It's we disagree and it's a healthy tension and it's about something substantive. It's about, you know, um it's not like we're, you know, it's not like I'm trying to book Kim Kardashian, you know what I mean? Like it's it's a it's it's completely there's no there's no right answer on that.

39:10 Um there sometimes I'll do an analysis, a news analysis, and we'll discuss whether or not I'm going too far or I'm not going far enough. I mean, that's a healthy conversation that we have in the newsroom. Um, I certainly encourage people to speak up, but like I said, I'm not naive enough to think that like that means like a 23-year-old, you know, desk assistant is going to feel like she can just come in my office and say, "I don't like this topic or whatever." Like she should, but like I know that it probably is intimidating. But I hope that there is at least that kind of environment fostered where even if it's not brought up at a meeting, uh, it can be voiced. I know. I know it is because it that's how it works. Sometimes somebody will say some people on the staff think blah blah blah

39:57 and it's always you know it's and it's you know that we should be covering this more we should be covering this less or whatever.

40:02 Why do you think so many powerful leaders struggle with this? Is it stem from an insecurity? Where does it come? Because like technically it's more comfortable just to have people like blow smoke and tell you how awesome you are. Like I I my background is in sports and so I'm used to getting like annihilated by coaches every day when they watch practice film and game film. Like I almost feel like I'm not living if I'm not getting critical feedback because it's been been like hammered into me since I was five till like 26.

40:35 And so I'm like I need it. I need it. Give me some feedback like critical feedback so I can get better. So I get better because like the people who I love so much in my life were coaches. And but

40:45 I'm the same way. It's funny. Yeah. You know what I mean? But like now you're seeing it whether it's presidents or other powerful people where it's like dude who's around that guy to tell him no man like why why do you think this is such a thing?

41:01 Uh I mean I think that it I think any sort of leadership is difficult. Yeah. Uh and I think any sort of leadership comes with a especially in this day and age comes with a tremendous amount of criticism.

41:12 Yep. Uh, and that can be and and often let let me just put myself in the in the shoes of Donald Trump just for just for the sake of this exercise.

41:22 Okay. President Trump has a very difficult job. Mhm. This is just like remove what you think of about Donald Trump for from like anybody listening. Remove what you think about him. Whether you love him or you hate him or you're in between, he has a very difficult job. And like if you go online, you will find the nastiest, most personal attacks not only on him uh but his appearance, his wife,

41:51 his daughter, his sons, his grandkid. Like there is the nastiest stuff out there. In addition, and this could apply to any president, so don't think like this is about Trump, but like in addition, he's getting death threats. He had assassination attempts. He he literally has to walk around in a protective bubble because people will try to kill him. Like

42:12 so you put yourself in that environment and then you say, "Well, why isn't he listening to criticism?"

42:17 Yeah, that's a good point. You know, like his entire life is criticism. No, I'm not. No, now that doesn't mean I don't think he should listen to criticism. I do. And I think he could probably be an even better president if he had more skeptics around him, all that stuff. As I thought about Biden, etc., etc., But, you know, so to any smaller degree, um, you know, let's say I'm just going to keep people picking people who people won't expect me to sympathize with. Let's say Sean Hannity, right?

42:46 Yeah. Sean Hannity. Same thing. He does a a a show every night. I'm sure he brings his best to it. I'm sure he thinks he's doing the best show he can do and he's providing entertainment and and uh news and analysis and he's getting he's making lots of money for Fox this and that and again he probably has to have a security detail he's you know the criticism on him I'm sure is unrelenting. So in a situation like that it might not be like the first impulse of somebody to say like okay give me some criticism.

43:23 Yeah right. So I I understand how it could happen that somebody removes critics from their sphere. And I'm not saying that about Trump or Hannity. I'm just citing them as two examples of how tough it can be and to be in the public sphere. So I I think it makes sense. Now, you know, on add on that like if you're a general, you're literally getting shot at, right? uh if you're a Hollywood star, uh your life or death is like whether or not you get good reviews and the movies come out and you know if you can't if your movie fails and literally maybe you're going to lose your job and your money and your power and I mean so the stakes are very high on a personal level. So I understand it. My point isn't that this isn't that that the criticism makes me a better person. My point is that it makes me a better journalist. Mhm.

44:20 That's that's I think the point. Um and I'm humble enough to know that like every day I could I could stand criticism about what we could have done better yesterday and what we should do better tonight.

44:32 One of the uh attributes I think you're exemplifying that we all would be better served having is the ability to legitimately put yourself in someone else's shoes. Uh I don't think most of us do that hardly ever. we don't like sit there and actually think wait what would it like a lot of time a lot of times this happens like in a company it's just so easy to criticize the CEO or it's so e when you're like you know down multiple layers below it's so easy to criticize the senior leadership but if you've never taken the time to have an understanding of what their life is actually like what are they faced with what are their struggles their problems what you just kind of showed is it actually like helped me be a little bit more reasonable because like I I don't know what that's like. I don't know what death threats and having to have, you know, assassination attempt like I don't know what mo nobody know really knows

45:27 what that's like. But you're sitting like, hey, why don't you guys think about that a little bit? It might make you just a more reasonable person. Now, that still doesn't it it it still doesn't say, hey, you you should just surround yourself with with Yes. Yes. people, but I do think in general a good leadership skill is to try to understand the world through somebody else's eyes. And if you can do that, you'll probably have higher EQ. You you you'll be able to better relate with people and probably become a better communicator and understanding of others. And that's that's a good leadership skill in itself.

45:57 One of the things that's tough about it, and I know this from from from personal experience, is that like it's very difficult to try to maintain that when you're talking about people that are that are being relentlessly unfair to you.

46:11 Yes. you know, um, and like twisting things you say and and, uh, and attacking you personally and attacking your family personally, this and that. Like I know I have experienced that to a much smaller degree than President Trump or President Biden. But I know what it's like. And it it it sucks and it and it also um I mean one of one of the things I think is so interesting about President Trump is he drives so many people crazy.

46:42 And it but it's it's not just his supporters who are driven to the point of um illogic that they'll support anything he says or does even if it contradicts itself or whatever. It's also his opponents.

46:59 He drives his opponents crazy where they are just like knee-jerk opposing anything he says or does, twisting this that the other and they they they often becl themselves in their hatred of him. Um, and I again I understand it because I remember like it's difficult when uh when you're in the public eye and people are just like really coming at you like other public officials to try to maintain a state of decorum and grace and um respect for them when they're not doing it for you. So I I get it. I understand why President Trump or others are like so angry and like so inclined to lash back because psychologically it's it's not pleasant. And I can't say that I've maintained 100% like I remember like I I have in my mind tweets that I wish I hadn't written etc. uh since deleted so you can't find them but I'm sure they're out there somewhere. Uh but like you know moments where I was like I I got mad you know and I let and I

48:04 betrayed who the best version of myself that I want to be. Yeah. Well I think the other thing is to realize and I've I've realized this after 650 of these things is every single person I've talked to have they've sustained excellence. They've done amazing things. They're also humans

48:19 and humans are messy and the world's not black and white. It's really gray, right? And we all do stupid stuff from time to time. And I think that's life, man. Like I I think it it is weird. We put people on pedestals. We think they're not humans, but then you get to know them and you're like, "Yeah, impressive. Super hard worker, really smart, gets after it. Good leader, good person, also a human who makes mistakes and does dumb stuff sometimes." And I think that's that's like a realization we need to come to.

48:50 Yeah. No, we're all fallible. I was just listening to the I'm a big Dave Matthews fan. I was listening to his channel on series. My god, he's I've been to 80 plus shows. How are you are you one of those guys too? Like you go to tons of them?

49:01 I I No, I go to uh one or two a year. Uh but I've been I mean I've been listening to him since um 91 or '92 uh is the first time I heard him. He came to Philly. He opened for the Spin Doctors at the Chestnut Cabaret at Penn. And uh and and my my we went to go see the Spin Doctors and we're like who's this opening act is really good. Um I don't know how many times I've seen I just saw him in Montana with my brother. It was incredible. An incredible show. Big the big sky. So anyway, I was listening to his his channel on SiriusXM channel 30 as I'm sure you know. And um

49:35 Nikki Glazer. Yeah. Voice and and and uh he was talking about Aussie Osborne uh who just passed away. And he was just saying like every time he he said he said something along the lines of you know they say don't meet your heroes because they'll always disappoint you. And basically that's true except for Azie. Azie was always awesome. And I was thinking like, wow, you're Dave Matthews. Like, you've met everybody. I'm like, who disappointed you? Like, you know, I want I wanted to find out like like who was awful. But I'm sure, you know, because he catches them backstage at a concert and they're exhausted and 70 years old, 80 years old, you know, and it's like we're all we're all so broken and like imperfect and like it's okay to acknowledge that.

50:26 I just happen to look at the clock and realize how much time has passed so quickly. Um,

50:29 this has been such a good conversation. I Yeah, I really really appreciate it, man, because like I said, I've followed your work for a long time and I love people who are able to take these wild stories and turn them into books because I I' I've done it a few times and I know how insanely hard it is and how much like I I uh doubt and struggle through the process to get a book to the finish line. you've done it so many times and they're so so good on on top again of doing all the stuff you do at CNN. But I'm just curious for people who are who a little bit earlier in their career and again we hit on this a little bit earlier like what are some general piece like for that person who's like you know what

51:10 I want to leave a positive dent in the world. I don't know how yet but I do. What are some general pieces of lifecareer advice you give to that person? I mean, so, uh, the first thing I would say is if they want, if they're interested in journalism,

51:30 like anybody can be a pundit, like anybody can just and and especially in this day and age when punditry is just basically just people insulting other people

51:39 um online. Um, be a be a reporter, be a journalist, find like I um, this is famous last words. I can't imagine writing a memoir because like I it's really who cares?

51:54 I think you should. No. Well, I I have no maybe when I'm 80 and I need to figure out a project and I got, you know, but it would it but I'm telling you

52:04 the stories of other people are so much more interesting. Yeah. Um, and what other people think about issues going on, whether it's like Jonah Goldberg or uh I mean I'm just naming random people uh from you know or any any uh Ashley Allison another Democratic pundit we have or whoever like what they think is much more important than what I think and what politicians think about issues are much more important than what I think. So as a general rule, I think other people are more interesting than you uh in terms of journalism. Um hard work is very important. Um the advice I give to young people, especially people in college who have never really experienced it unless they didn't get into their first choice for college is so much of life is is rejection.

52:59 There's so much rejection in life. It's just it's non-stop and uh it is it is just a constant flow. Uh it's and it just it you cannot stop it and you cannot uh revel in it. You cannot um marinate in it. It just is. and just know that and like know how much there is out there and don't take it personally or if there is some constructive criticism that's part of it then then learn from that um to improve your game but you know especially in journalism which is a field that's so but I truth is like most fields in the humanities there's a tremendous amount of rejection journalism history English fiction interviews whatever So I I mean I think just develop just knowing that and like coming to terms with the fact that Dr. Seuss's first book was rejected by 47 publishers or whatever. You can go through a list of them. They're just like there are so many examples of of of of really worthy artists and projects

54:09 being told you're worthless and like you just can't let that be the final word. Part of winning is just staying in the game. Like too many people quit and that's why they lose because they don't have a chance

54:22 Oh. to win. 100%. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. And look, I mean, um, so Original Sin was the the Biden book I wrote and I look, I have no idea how well this book is going to do. I hope it I hope it does well, but honestly, like to me, it's just like I wrote this book. I'm proud of it. I hope people buy it. I hope people enjoy it. It's not I mean I'd like it to be a bestseller all that stuff but like it is the work that it is

54:45 but Original Sin just to just to bring it back to the rejection thing. Um, Alex and I started working on the book the day after the election cuz we're like what happened? Like that was not normal and I still don't like how bad was it behind the scenes and we started working on it and like and Alex and I and I said to Alex like we were working on the book. We didn't have a publisher. Uh we had I mean he had an agent, I had an agent and they were and we were working they were working on shopping around, you know, we wrote a proposal and then they working on chopping it around. But I said,"I don't care if we self-publish this and put it on eBay.

55:22 Like, I just want to answer this question and write this book." Yeah. Now, it turned out that, you know, there were a couple publishers that were interested and and uh ultimately Penguin Random House published it. But I'll say there were publishers that rejected it, that didn't didn't even want to read the proposal. And then there were publishers that uh you know offered a low bid or whatever. And that's again that's fine. It was, you know, it got almost universally positive reviews from the mainstream critics, the New York Times, Washington Post, etc. And it was on the bestseller list for seven weeks. It was number one on the non-fiction list uh for for the first and second week. So, it's like I I only say that by saying like whatever you think of Joe Biden, whatever you think of me, like the book was successful.

56:07 Mhm. Publishers rejected it. Like there are there are I mean I'm not going to name them, but like there are publishers rejected the book. It is like it was a success like period. Full stop. And so like I I I you know I'm probably at the top of my craft right now or at least with the top that I'll ever achieve. And like just for anybody out there struggling or whatever like I get rejected every day. Every day. And it doesn't matter that I've had New York Times bestsellers before or whatever. like it just it's part of life and it's just like and it sucks

56:48 but you just have to keep fighting through and you know beating that wave on the seventh on the seventh one.

56:53 I think that message is super inspiring cuz some would assume like well you just kind of can do whatever you want.

57:01 Of course everybody wanted it. of course, you know, because we've seen the numbers it's done and the impacts it's it has had and another one that I've read that is wild um that I recommend people reading too. But yeah, I mean o overall I I really appreciate this, Jake. I would love to to to continue our dialogue as we both progress because I uh I look up

57:22 so this has been so fun. Yeah. The way you approach it uh the this current book um that is it it's kind of like a movie is how I would describe it. That's how it reads. And I I I I love watching movies, but it feels like that. So, I think it's really hard to make the written word feel like a movie. And this book, Race Against Terror: Chasing an Al-Qaeda Killer at the Dawn of the Fore for F forever war feels like a movie, like you're inside of it. It's really, really well done. I really appreciate your team sending me an early copy and and and for them to connect us because I uh I really enjoyed this Jake.

57:59 Well, this was a lot of fun. I'll just give two for any aspiring writers out there. I'll give you two bits of advice um that I think like uh I I achieved in this book and the last book and maybe not in any of the previous ones which is one have a really good structure. Like that's an important part of of of a book is like the beginning, the middle, and the end. There's the old apherism like act one, chase your hero up a tree. Act two, throw rocks at your hero. Check. Act three, get your hero out of the tree. That's the basic dramatic structure for everything. And so having a good structure is important. Um, and then number two is have a good editor and be willing to kill your darlings, as they say. U Faulner, I think, said it like be willing to like this editor I have for this book, uh, Sean Delone.

58:50 He's fantastic. And he would like I would send him a chapter. I'd done the outline and I was sending him chapter by chapter. That's how we wrote it. And like, you know, I'd send him chapter 7 and he'd be like, "Jake, you need to rewrite chapter 7. It's too much like chapter 4. Here's my idea for it." And I'd be like, "Fuck. I don't want to do more work. I'm doing so much work." But

59:12 just tell me it's good, man. No, no, I wouldn't be loving you. That wouldn't be showing you the love. And literally, I'm sitting here um and I sent an outline for a project to my agent and like what do you and like I'm just waiting for him to say like this is good, this is bad, it should be a screenplay, it should be a novel, like whatever. He might say it sucks. I mean, I don't even know. But it's something I've spent the last two months working on. And like again, I don't like it could be nothing. He could say it's it's awful. Like this is all just part of the process. And then if it turns out like eh I don't think I can sell this or this isn't any good or blah blah blah or it needs it needs work or whatever like it I'm 56 but like I might as well be 22. It doesn't matter like it's still like I have to I'm facing rejection and yes things are a little easier for me now but like that doesn't

1:00:04 mean like I'm not uh in it still the same way as I was back when it was 100% rejection. Now it's only, you know, 95% rejection.

1:00:14 You feel it feels like you're speeding up. Like Yeah. Is that is that accurate? Are you speeding up like right now? Like you're going harder. You're not like taking it easy and resting on your laurels and all the money and everything like you're you're kind of getting after it even more.

1:00:29 Yeah. I don't know how much long Yes, that's that's accurate. I don't know how much longer I have this window where people are paying attention to ideas I have or thoughts I have. And um I like having multiple projects going. And uh I know if there's anything I've learned from watching peers and older contemporaries, it's that relevance is ephemeral.

1:00:57 Yeah. And you know, and when it leaves, it looks [ __ ] brutal. Uh I mean, I it hasn't left me yet, but it will at some point. And um you know, I just want to make sure that I'm producing as much as possible while I still can.

1:01:16 I think it's inspiring, man. I love I love the idea of speeding up. Like, I'm going to go, man. Like, I want to I want to maximize this thing. Let's get after it. Let's try to help people. Let's make an impact. Let's tell stories. I again I think it's inspiring when you see somebody who's hit the top of the mountain and they and they run faster and they and they and they go harder. I you know maybe that's not for everybody but it's for me, man. Like I I I love that kind of approach to this thing and I think it's inspiring for others to see that that you're speeding up at a time when maybe some would would would relax or would coast and I I think that's uh I I appreciate that. I thank you. And and I have to say your metaphor is making my my bones ache.

1:02:01 The idea of me hitting the top of a mountain and running running faster sounds incredibly painful to my knees and lower back. But I I know you mean it as a metaphor, so I'll take I'll I'll I'll take it in that spirit.

1:02:12 Oh, this is great, man. I know we went way over time, but I appreciate it. And like I said, I'd love to continue this dialogue as we both progress,

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "How to Get Honest Answers in Any Interview | Jake Tapper’s Interview Blueprint"?

Ryan Hawk (Host), Jake Tapper (Guest).

What is "How to Get Honest Answers in Any Interview | Jake Tapper’s Interview Blueprint" about?

Jake Tapper shares insights on the art of interviewing, emphasizing the importance of asking the right questions to elicit honest and meaningful responses. He reflects on valuable lessons learned from renowned journalists and discusses the significance of resilience and structure in both media and leadership.

What is mentioned in this Ryan Hawk episode?

16 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Race Against Terror, CNN, The Outpost, Original Sin, ABC News, Reagan Library. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "How to Get Honest Answers in Any Interview | Jake Tapper’s Interview Blueprint"?

The episode runs 1 h 2 min; the transcript is about 11,855 words in 129 timestamped sections.

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