Transcript

Michael Uslan: The True Story of Batman With Sean Callagy

From Sean Callagy · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 55 min · 18,094 words · 238 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Michael Uslan: The True Story of Batman With Sean Callagy", an episode of Sean Callagy published February 10, 2026 (1 h 55 min, about 18,094 words). It mentions 19 people, works and ideas, including Batman, Michael Yuselin, Dark Knight, The Joker, Tim Burton.

What this episode is about

Michael Uslan shares his passionate journey of reviving the Batman franchise, reflecting on the skepticism he faced while pursuing a dream that began in childhood. Despite doubts from industry insiders that serious comic book movies could succeed, Uslan's perseverance and commitment ultimately transformed Batman into a cultural icon, illustrating the power of determination and belief in one's vision.

Key takeaways

  • In a world obsessed with heroes, a childhood vow can resurrect even the 'dead as a dodo' dreams.
  • Passion trumps privilege: a blue-collar kid rewrites the dark legacy of a caped crusader.
  • Comic relief? Batman's legacy transformed from campy laughs to complex, deep narratives with perseverance.
  • A vow in a basement can fuel a cinematic revolution; sometimes, childhood trauma shapes legendary journeys.
  • Hollywood's naysayers often miss this: darkness in storytelling can ignite a cultural revival, not snuff it out.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Batman, Michael Yuselin, Dark Knight, The Joker
  2. – 20:00: Batman, Stan Lee, Tim Burton, Indiana University
  3. – 30:00: Batman, Stan Lee, United Press International, Indiana University
  4. – 40:00: Batman, Stan Lee, Indiana University
  5. – 50:00: Batman
  6. – 1:00:00: Batman
  7. – 1:10:00: Batman, Tim Burton, Warner Brothers, Apocalypse Now
  8. – 1:20:00: Batman, The Joker, Tim Burton, Gotham City
  9. – 1:30:00: Batman, The Joker, Warner Brothers, Casablanca Records
  10. – 1:40:00: Batman, Dark Knight, The Joker, Gotham City
  11. – 1:50:00: Batman, Dark Knight, The Joker
  12. – 1:55:27: Batman, Dark Knight, Michael Yuselin

Notable quotes from "Michael Uslan: The True Story of Batman With Sean Callagy"

  • So, no, Michael, congratulations on everything you've done. It is an honor and privilege to have you here. thank you. And I'm a little intimidated for like 14 different reasons. Not the.
    about Michael Yuselin · at
  • And as if those of you have seen the 89 movie that Tim Burton directed, there's kind of no room for that interpretation of Batman anymore.
    about Tim Burton · at
  • You. It's remarkable. so from there, what is it about was Batman your favorite? And if so, why? Batman was my favorite and it's for a very simple reason. He was one of the only superheroes with no superpowers.
    about Batman · at
  • And professors and pitch it. Even though I was an undergrad, I was a junior, I could literally teach a course on campus for three hours of credit.
    about Indiana University · at
  • Young genius named Tim Burton came into our lives. Here was a young Disney animator and Warner Brothers said, We're setting up a screening of the fine cut of a movie this kid's…
    about Warner Brothers · at
  • And Tim's correlary to that was from the opening frames of the movie, Gotham City had to become the third most important character of the film because audiences had to suspend their disbelief and.
    about Gotham City · at
  • I appreciate that, Sean. Let me mention two things about Christopher Nolan's Batman movies. Number one is when Chris came aboard, he had to restore the darkness and dignity to…
    about Dark Knight · at
  • Joker could be real. And this was his testament to 9/11 and the aftermath of 9/11. And the Joker was conceived as a modern-day terrorist, someone who places no value whatsoever on human life.
    about The Joker · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Michael Yuselin — Person · Main guest / featured speaker · 3 mentions · first at
    Central storyteller describing his decades-long effort to restore Batman’s serious tone and bring Batman to film; discusses his career path through comics, studios, and producing.
  • Tim Burton — Person · Referenced filmmaker (turning-point collaborator) · 5 mentions · first at
    Identified as the creative turning point enabling a serious Batman film; credited for the ‘big idea’ focusing on Bruce Wayne and Gotham as core to audience belief.
  • Stan Lee — Person · Referenced mentor / industry icon · 5 mentions · first at
    Presented as Michael’s mentor and a key figure who elevated comic-book storytelling; quoted for advice about villains defining heroes.
    And I was having lunch with Stan Lee, my mentor and friend.
  • Christopher Nolan — Person · Referenced filmmaker (comparative case study) · 2 mentions · first at
    Cited as the director who restored Batman’s darkness and realism post–1990s films; discussed for thematic and stylistic choices in the Dark Knight trilogy.
    I appreciate that, Sean. Let me mention two things about Christopher Nolan's Batman movies. Number one is when Chris came aboard, he had to restore the darkness and dignity to…
  • Jack Nicholson — Person · Referenced actor (key casting example) · 8 mentions · first at
    Discussed as the definitive Joker casting for 1989 Batman; used to illustrate how performance legitimacy helped validate comic-book films.
    Where he's like peering maniacally around a corner. I go, Oh my god, this is the only actor who could play the Joker.

Companies & orgs

  • Warner Brothers — Company · Business focus · 3 mentions · first at
    The studio that eventually produced the Batman films after a decade of development.
  • Indiana University — Company · Setting · 4 mentions · first at
    Where Michael Uslan attended and taught the first accredited college course on comic books.
  • Casablanca Records — Company · Business focus · 2 mentions · first at
    The record label that initially supported the Batman movie project before Warner Brothers took over.
    Ben said, I just got word that Casablanca Records, which were the kings of disco back in the day, Donna Summer and all of those, they just got an influx of money from Polygram in Europe, and they're going to open up a.
  • Columbia — Company · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in the context of Michael Uslan's work on an animated series.
    20our days all the time and I was pushing on the animated series pushing and all the guys who were working on it with me at Colombia Television and an animation studio called Dee, they knew about the pressure I was under.
  • United Press International — Company · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in the context of Michael Uslan's early media strategy to promote his comic book course.
    This reporter gets on the phone and I started screaming at him. I go, What is wrong with you? He goes, Excuse me? I said, You're supposed to be the watchd dogss of our society. You're not doing.

Concepts & topics

  • Batman — Concept · Core topic · 83 mentions · first at
    Central theme of the episode, discussing the transformation of Batman from a campy TV character to a dark and serious cinematic hero.
  • The Joker — Concept · Key argument · 12 mentions · first at
    Batman's arch-nemesis, discussed in the context of his portrayal by Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger.
  • Gotham City — Concept · Setting · 4 mentions · first at
    The fictional city where Batman operates, discussed as a character in its own right in the films.
  • Bane — Concept · Key argument · 1 mention · first at
    A villain from the Batman universe, discussed in the context of his role in 'The Dark Knight Rises'.
    Oh, yes. I was wondering what would break first.

Places & events

  • Harvard — Place · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in passing during a light-hearted exchange between the speakers.
    No, I'm an Indiana University proud guy.

Media & podcasts

  • Dark Knight — Media · Key argument · 10 mentions · first at
    Refers to the Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy, which redefined the character's cinematic portrayal.
  • Raging Bull — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    A film mentioned as part of Michael Uslan's work at United Artists.
    Yes. Yeah. a movie that's on everybody's top 10 list of all time called Raging Bull.
  • Apocalypse Now — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    A film mentioned as part of Michael Uslan's work at United Artists.
    And for two and a half years of my life, a movie you've probably all heard of called Apocalypse Now.
  • The Empire Strikes Back — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    A film mentioned in passing during the discussion of Michael Uslan's work at United Artists.
    And I'm in New York getting ready to get on the bus back home to New Jersey. I got the afternoon paper, the post. I open it up to the movie section and there I see two big…

Full transcript with timestamps

The whole world was laughing at my Batman and that killed me. He said, "Don't you understand that since Batman went off the air in television, the brand is as dead as a dodo?" He said, "Nobody's interested in Batman anymore. This was a dream I had since I was 8 years old. For the next 5 months, I was working 20our days all the time. I had no relatives in Hollywood. So, how do you get there from here?" Perseverance, passion. They said this was the worst idea they ever heard. They said, "You can't make serious comic book movies.

You can't do dark superheroes. You can't make a movie out of an old TV series. Nobody's ever done that." I decided was that I had nothing to lose. So, I stood my ground. And if Batman and my journey have done nothing else, that for me meant everything.

What are you? Okay, I made a lot of that up. I hope I was right. So, no, Michael, congratulations on everything you've done. It is an honor and privilege to have you here. Um, thank you. And I'm a little intimidated for like 14 different reasons. Not the least of which is you bring an Hbomb to the party. Is that true?

That you're a Harvard guy? No, you're not a Harvard guy. No, I'm an Indiana University proud guy.

I'm so much less intimidated cuz I despise Harvard. I played at Columbia. So, but congratulations. You guys are ranked number three in college football right now.

Yeah. It's the first time in history that Indiana's had a good football team. Let's hear for that.

I grew up It was all about basketball. Bobby Knight. It was about swimming and Mark Spitz. Um but my god, it's football now. Who to who to

So this is even so this is even better because you don't have to go to Ivory League school to like recreate the universe and create billions and billions of value. Make some noise for that.

Yeah. So, um, thank you for being here. It it is an honor. We spoke, uh, back in the green room for a few minutes and, um, I'll just share it. Same thing I shared there. I'll share with these folks and just like hear the physical energetic connection is um the space of Batman and the time frame between when I was three, four, five, six watching the Adam West um Bert Ward Batman and reruns to 1989 Michael King and Jack Nicholson was a time I desperately missed Batman when they took Batman reruns off the air with Adam West when I was little. We actually wrote to the New York TV station to ask them to please put them back on. Like that's how much this meant to my heart and being. So it is such an unbelievable honor to have you here. So Michael, can you just share how do we get here? Like what what's this look like for you growing up? Where do you intersect with Batman and please take us from there?

Sure. Well, you first of all, you can blame me for having that silly TV series taken off the air. Um, look, I I get it. If you were a little kid back then, it was great. But back then, in January 1966 when this premiered, I was a teenage hardcore comic book fan. I had already met the creators of Batman, Bill Finger and Bob Kaine, and they told me what their vision was in the creation of Batman. And it was meant to be a dark knight to be taken very seriously, battling deeply disturbed villains in the shadows. So my goal was to erase from the collective consciousness of the world culture these three awful words, pow, zap, and wham.

Yeah. So let's hear from Michael, right? Um, and and just because some folks, you know, m if you never saw

never saw an episode of the Adam West Bert Ward Batman, if you never saw it, say yes.

Yeah, a few people. So, um, Tank MJ, do we have a quick clip? All right, let's let's see it. So, can can you hold your breakfast down for one moment because we want to support people in seeing what was that you helped eradicate to what is

I hope it's the bad two scene. It It may be worse. It may be worse. So, here we go. Wow. All right, we don't want Michael to leave, so let's pause. And then do we have our other clip? Yes or no, Michael?

Okay. So, hold on for one sec. So, just like what's present for you? What what was present for you when you first saw that?

Horror. I realized 20 minutes into the first episode that this was a comedy and that Batman was played as a joke. The whole world was laughing at my Batman and that killed me. So that night in the basement den of our house down in Ocean Township,

New Jersey. Yeah. In front of my two best friends, Bobby and Barry, I made a vow. I made a vow like young Bruce Wayne once made a vow. Except Bruce Wayne made his vow over the slaughtered bodies of his parents in the street. My parents were safe upstairs in the kitchen. And I said, "Somehow, someday, some way, I will show the world the true Batman as he was created in 1939." That's where it started.

And that is Zeus energy. If you feel that Zeus energy, say yes. The absolute certainty and commitment to something immovable resolved decided unstoppable. Am I hearing you correctly, sir?

Yes, you are. Uh to me, it all starts with passion. You have to be passionate about something. You have to feel it virtually burning through your veins. And I mean, I'm a bluecollar kid from New Jersey, folks. My dad was a stonemason. My mom was a bookkeeper. I didn't come from money. I couldn't buy my way into Hollywood. I didn't know anybody in Hollywood. I had no relatives in Hollywood. So, how do you get there from here? Perseverance, passion.

Yes. an incredible amount of influence mastery because you got to cause a lot of yeses and we get there in one moment that we're driven by that passion at heart. And um let's watch just one more scene to demonstrate the ridiculousness. But but just pause it for one more sack tank. Before we do though, remember for those that don't know, Batman became Batman beginning with the murder of his parents in cold blood, murdered in front of his eyes as a child. So imagine that's where it begins. And now we're seeing Pow and Zap to understand where Michael's heart would hurt. Now I was a little boy, so I didn't I had no idea that Batman's parents were murdered. I'm three and four and five years old and I was born in 70. So 73, four, five, I'm 3, four, five. I'm like, pow, was that? Yay, fun.

Cool. Because I had no idea of what this character actually was at the depth and the drive and the trauma and the the recreation of reality. Right? So imagine, and let's hit this next scene. Imagine this is what Michael who understands what Bob Kane and the creators created in 1939. Imagine if you thought that was bad. Imagine this please.

Oh, no. Not this. This was the straw that broke the camel's back. Here comes the wave of the day. They ought to be able to take off on it. They have something sure seems to be pounding in that trash can. Buzzy

Joker's good. What a kick turn. But watch Batman trimming. The Joker's shuffling now. He's coming back to meet the curl.

He caught it. He's riding the hook. Batman can't be joker. But watch him pro the squad.

Look there, a shark. What's that in his hand? Oh, make the noise of this, Michael. My god. Please, would you I'm sure you remember this. Where did Do you remember this? Please. So many years later, I'm at San Diego ComicCon on a Batman panel. thousands of people in the room, SRO, and they announce at the last minute there's going to be a guest panelist. And who walks in but Adam West

and he sits down next to me and um he grabs the mic and for the first time ever he said, "You know, I've come to realize there can be many different interpretations of Batman. There doesn't have to be simply one Batman." And it was a very very kind gesture. So I took the microphone and I said, "You know what, Adam?" Every two seconds Robin on the show was going, "Holy chair, holy car, holy this, holy that." I said, "But I'm now going to let 12-year-old Michael out for a moment, and I'm going to give the microphone to to Michael at age 12."

And I then looked at him and I said, "Oh my god, I'm sitting next to the Batman of the swinging 60s. Holy shit."

And with that, the place went crazy. He stood up, gave me a bear hug, I gave him a bear hug, and we made peace.

Wow. Thank you. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, so Adam West is the person that played Batman in the Campy uh series, and he was uh deeply offended and upset when the movie in 19, it was 89, am I correct? 89.

Yeah, correct. ' 89. um the Batman movie came out with Michael Keaton playing Batman, Jack Nicholson, that he was deeply offended and upset that he wasn't going to play Batman. Am I correct on that?

Yeah. Yeah. He wanted to either play Batman or as he used to say, I'll at least play Uncle Batman. And as if those of you have seen the 89 movie that Tim Burton directed, there's kind of no room for that interpretation of Batman anymore.

Yes. So, so what happened? You go from I Michael am horrified at this um and if I could actually one half a step back. So where did your love for Batman come from in the com or how did you become introduced to Batman in the comics?

Um thanks to my older brother Paul. Um, first of all, you have to understand my older brother was a superstar in every sport he ever did. And I barely could swing a bat. And no pun intended, by the way. And I escaped into a world of comic books, a world of superheroes. And for me, it was Superman and Batman and Spider-Man and uh all the DC and Marvel superheroes in particular. That was my world. And they, my mom said that that's what taught me how to read before I was four years old. By the time I graduated high school at Ocean Township High School, I had over 30,000 comic books dating back to the 1930s.

Wow. From the day my we moved into our house, my dad never once could get his car in the garage. It was Florida ceiling comic books. And and and that's where the passion was nurtured. My parents were very supportive. They knew they had a strange son and they and they catered to my interests. Um I I attended the first comic book convention ever held on the planet earth. I was 14. There were 200 of us at the first Comic-Con

and um I got to meet people of my community. I found it was a community and we got to meet for the first time all of us fans face to face or more accurately pimple to pimple. Um, but it it it was really incredible and I knew that I had to make comic books and superheroes part of my adult life.

If there's anything, Sean, that my dad ever taught me, it was as a stonemason. He would get up every morning before dawn,

work six days a week from age 16 when he dropped out of high school to help his family survive the depression till he was 80 years old. My dad woke up with a smile on his face and couldn't wait to get to work. He was an oldworld artist, a real craftsman, and what he built out of stone and cement, ju just incredible. And when you live in a house like that and you have somebody who has that kind of an attitude, how can you not want to wake up on a rainy Monday morning and say, "Boy, I can't wait to get to work."

Wow. So Paul and I went to work for my dad during high school and it was the worst thing I ever experienced in my life. We were carrying bags of cement and bricks. We were toring foundations in the heat. Um and that's when my dad explained to me, "Michael, you need to find your own bricks and stones."

Wow. Look at this. That's the difference. How how masterful a storyteller and context setter is. Michael, make some noise for that. Yeah, thank you. Really? Because this is what we're we're we're teaching influence mastery, what to do with it, how emotionally get yourself to use it to generate your uh bricks and stones in life. Like that's what we're doing here. And really, I I had no idea how masterful uh you were already. Thank you. It's remarkable. Um so from there, um what what is it about was Batman your favorite? And if so, why? Batman was my favorite and it's for a very simple reason. He was one of the only superheroes with no superpowers.

Amen. Amen. His greatest superpower is his humanity and I could identify with it. Everybody can identify with that. It transcends borders. It it hits cultures. He also, as you pointed out, has the most powerful origin story witnessing as a child the murder of his parents before his eyes. Um, he has the greatest array of super villains ever created.

Amen. And I was having lunch with Stan Lee, my mentor and friend. Wow. Those of you who don't know,

let's hear for Stanley. And can I drop a quick footnote? We have licensed Stan Lee's AI voice and make some of our videos with his voice. But please, back to you. Well, I first met Stan when I was 11 years old and um and there'll be more about Stan as this conversation generates, but Stan said to me, he said, "You know, Michael, you've got to remember when you start doing these movies that it's the super villains who are just as important as the superheroes because ultimately they define the superheroes." And he was very right about that. And the last bit of magic of Batman, the car. I mean the car

amazing. Um you will have to drag me off this stage or Mike will have to leave first because I will be here for the next four days. U and I just like I cannot tell you this. So um and and fun footnote um do you know David Mazelle, founder of Marvel Studios? Yep. So did you know David was here at this immersion? He spoke two days ago.

Oh that's great. I know David. He's a great guy. Yeah. though we had a you know this is like unbelievable and it was just pain in my heart to say how much uh more of a DC guy than Marvel guy I am but you know we'll stay here and quick footnote so um going off track just stream of consciousness Batman I'm sorry versus Muhammad Ali larger comic book of course you have to know that um your feelings impressions about that and when that came out I was working at DC when that came out. So I was behind the scenes uh at the time that book was being prepared. And at that point, Muhammad Ali was maybe the most famous person internationally uh that existed at the moment. Um and he was he was a superhero in his own right.

So the idea that DC had of setting up a battle of the century between Superman and Muhammad Ali worked on a lot of levels. And the theme was basically man's humanity toward man. And um the themes of that particular issue were very very strong, very very positive. And it was one of the great projects that DC undertook.

Amen. And I loved it as a child. I love to this day. I have my copy of it. I got it literally fresh in the store. And the cover of it had um Superman and Muhammad Ali fighting in a boxing match. And the entire crowd um or almost all the crowd were famous people and so you would see their faces on the cover and you open up the inside cover and their faces were numbered and then you look up the number and the name of who it actually was like Farah Faucet and you know other famous people of the day. I mean it was it was beautiful and remarkable. Um, so we have this world of Batman and your love for Batman and how does this turn into your life's work?

Well, I was always looking for an opportunity to get my foot in the door somewhere somehow that would take me on a path into the world of comic books and movies. And that opportunity first arose when I went to Indiana University. It was the early 70s, folks. It was a time of great experimentation on college campuses. And that's all I'm gonna say about it. But in response to those times, the College of Arts and Sciences began an experimental curriculum department. If you had an idea for a course that had never been taught in college before, and if you could get the backing of a department on campus, you then had the right to appear before a panel of deans and professors and pitch it. Even though I was an undergrad, I was a junior,

I could literally teach a course on campus for three hours of credit. I said, "What an opportunity. Nobody in the world, there's never been a college accredited course on comic books before."

So, I wrote a syllabus and I went to the folklore department and I met with my professor. I said, "Look, comic books are our modern-day mythology. The superheroes are contemporary folklore." I said, "The Greeks called him Poseidon. The Romans called him Neptune. I call him Aquaman.

Yeah. The Greeks called him Hermes. The Romans called him Mercury. I call him the Flash.

Amen. And my professor said, "You know, Michael, you're right. If you go back and look, it it doesn't matter if we call it King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table or the Avengers. It's the same thing. I will back you."

Wow. So, I went in to appear before the Dean and the Professors. My hair down on my shoulders. I'm wearing a Spider-Man t-shirt, package of comic books under my arm, my hippie love beads. Thank you very much. And I walk into this cavernous dark room, and the dean is sitting at the end of a table. He's got that little pair of half glasses at the end of his nose, looking down at me over his glasses, and says, "So, you're the fellow who wants to teach a course on funny books at my university?" I knew I was in deep uh trouble.

I launch into the first pitch of my career. He lets me speak for two minutes and cuts me off. He says, "Mr. Yuseland, come on. I read comic books when I was a little boy. I read every issue of Superman I could get my hands on. But all comic books are are cheap entertainment for little kids. Nothing more, nothing less. And I reject your theory." This was now a life-changing moment for me because what I decided was that I had nothing to lose. So, I stood my ground and I said, "Dean, may I just ask you two questions?" He said, "Ask me anything you want." I said, "Are you familiar with the story of Moses?" And he looked at me like I was out of my mind. He said, "Yeah." So, I said, "So, Dean, very, very briefly, could you just summarize the story of Moses for me, sits back, goes, "Mr. Ulen, I don't know what game you're playing here, but we have a few minutes yet. I'll play it with you." Uh, the Hebrew people were

being persecuted. Their firstborn were being slain. Hebrew couple place their infant son in a little wicker basket and send him down the river Nile. There he's discovered by an Egyptian family who raised him as their own son. But when he grows up and learns of his true heritage, he becomes a great hero to his people. I said, "Stop. That was great, Dean. Thank you so much. You said you read Superman comics when you were a kid. By any chance, do you remember the origin of Superman?" He said, "Sure. The planet Krypton was about to blow up. A scientist and his wife place their infant son in a little rocket ship and send him to Earth.

He said there he's discovered by the Kents who raise him as their own son. When he grows up, he stops, stares at me for what I swear to you is an eternity and says your course is accredited. That's it. the superpower of human influence. If Michael can, you can.

Is it valuable to have speakers here? Yes. Thank you. Amazing. By the way, if you thought before this moment that Batman had superpowers, say yes.

Yeah. Batman had none. He was a master and he developed himself at every level completely. His mind, his body, his spirit from the place of the deepest trauma. And that is why Michael loves him, why I love him, and why so many people have Batman as their favorite superhero. Because Spider-Man was bitten by a radioactive spider and developed superpowers. Superman is an alien from another world that the gravity works differently on him here and a number of other dynamics. The Hulk is the Hulk and all of these creatures, the Flash superpowers, they all have superpowers.

Batman has none, right? And as uh Michael shared, his humanity, Batman, no matter what, would ne not only not kill the super villains, but he would risk his life to save their life. because he would not want to become what killed his parents. Am I hearing you correctly sir?

Absolutely. Um, may I tell part two of what just happened? Yes. There was a followup to this.

Yes. I was so excited, Sean. I raced back to my apartment and I called my mom and dad in New Jersey

and my mom said, "Michael, this is very exciting. This is great, but if you don't market yourself, if you don't market your creative wares, nobody will ever hear of it. And I said, "Ma, I'm 20 years old. I'm in Bloomington, Indiana, and I have no money. What am I supposed to do?" She said, "You're a smart boy. You'll think of something." So, I hung up from my parents, thought for two minutes, and I picked up the phone and I called UPI, United Press International. Now, back then, UPI was as big a news syndicate as the Associated Press is today. I asked to speak to a reporter. This poor man gets on the phone.

I I need to interrupt. Yeah. Do you understand what you're listening to? Just do this. Thank you. Okay, please. Back to you.

This reporter gets on the phone and I started screaming at him. I go, "What is wrong with you?" He goes, "Excuse me?" I said, "You're supposed to be the watchd dogss of our society. You're not doing your job." He said, "What? What are you talking about? What am I talking about? Are you kidding me? I just heard there's a course on comic books being taught at Indiana University. I said, "Are you telling me as a taxpayer in this state they're now using my money to teach our kids comic books?" I said, "This is outrageous. This must be a communist plot to subvert the youth of America." And I slammed down the phone.

Oh my god. It It took this guy three days to find out if there was such a course. He found out who the lunatic was teaching. It shows up at my doorstep with a photographer. They do an article. It's a third of a page long. It gets picked up by virtually every newspaper in North America, a bunch in Europe. Unbelievable.

Listen, this has been an incredible lineup, right? We had Charlie Sheen here. We had Ralph Machio here. We had like arguably the most brilliant woman in AI in America that was Google's chief decision officer and ran their AI programs, trained 20,000 people at Google. Um, and we had David and when we had this conversation, this was and I thank Brian Espazito. Let's hear for Brian for Michael being here, right? So, thank you Brian. And we just like we had eight folks coming to speak. We have still Sugar Leonard and Gary Vayner Truck and Kevin Mayer that acquired Lucas Films and uh Pixar and Marvel for Disney um besidia Khan tonight and was like oh my god like this is unbelievable this opportunity we have all these speakers and I was like we just can't we can't I can't tell you how grateful I am because I and I I want to say this so precisely I don't want to in any way shape shape or form limit all

of the prior insanity. But there has been no more practically useful conversation we've had than this one. The dude just picked up the phone, disruptively went from hello, created virality before they were computers. That's what this guy did and you could do the same. Okay, I'm sorry, Michael. Please, back to you.

Well, I got invited on radio and TV talk shows. Every class I ever taught, the classroom was filled with television cameras and reporters, NBC Nightly News, the CBS Evening News. We had Oh, there was one day I had Parade magazine, Family Weekly, and Playboy. I mean, everybody was into this

and um the word was spreading. So, two weeks later, my phone rings and it it is this exuberant male voice. He goes, "Hi, is this Mike?" I go, "Yeah." "Hia, Mike. This is Stan Lee from Marvel Comics in New York City."

It's crazy. I I call this my burning bush moment. I was talking to my god and Stan said, "You know, Mike, I'm seeing you on TV. I'm reading about you in newspapers. What you're doing is great for the whole comic book industry. How can I help you?" And that was the moment Stan changed from my idol to my mentor.

That's something eventually building up a friendship. Unbelievable, dude. I mean, Stan Lee um many people relate to until I did some research a little bit more recently about two months ago. Um I thought Stan Lee was the creator of Marvel comics. Um he was not, but he is the face, the identity of Marvel. like who who is Stan Lee um your mentor like who is he in the comic world and the Marvel world according to Michael Yucelin

he is the co-creator of the entire pantheon of Marvel superheroes he is the person that elevated comic books he up until that time comic books were being aimed at 8 to 12 year old boys and Stan started to write more intelligently and in a more sophisticated graphic storytelling manner along with the fabulous artists like Jack Kirby and Steve Ditco who who worked with him, created with him, and um he turned comic books into something that you could continue to read as you hit high school, as you hit college, and he opened up the audience worldwide to older people, which ushered in the age of graphic novels, which is where we are today. So, um I don't know how you measure that, but it's it really is immeasurable.

Wow. Unbelievable. And and have have has anybody here if you have never read a comic book ever, say yes. Okay. If you've never read a graphic novel, say yes.

Okay. So, how would you articulate, Michael, what graphic novels are? just so we can contextualize all this and then go back into the 70s roll out up until you acquire this option which I cannot wait to hear this story but like what what is a graphic novel according to Michael

uh those of you who are not Gen Z you need to tune in because this is one of the ways the world is changing graphic novels think of the floppy comic books the individual issues we all read uh think about putting four or five or six of them together and publishing it as a book form. Okay, that's the concept of a graphic novel. Go to a Barnes & Noble while there's still some left and go through the aisles and you will see an entire row of graphic novels and then you will see two rows of manga. Manga are graphic novels coming out of Japan.

There's mana coming out of Korea and this is where it is all moving. Uh the the I think the last statistic I saw was currently 50% of all Gen Z's and millennials are reading graphic novels monthly. 50%. Uh overall for all groups it's 30%. And it's growing in leaps and bounds. I just spoke at uh New York Comic-Con Javit Center 225,000 people. It's about onethird now Asian um groups that are set up there. The the feeling is within just a couple of years it will dominate both San Diego Comic-Con and New York Comic-Con. That's how fast things are changing. Whether it's American or English-speaking graphic novels, graphic novels coming from Europe or the fastest growing audience out of Asia.

Amazing. And um like to give you just a bit of an illustration um a graphic novel that I loved incredibly was Batman and Jack the Ripper. So this is a a deep graphic novel and you open up and Batman is in the time of Jack the Ripper and the greatest detective ever because Batman was introduced not in a bat a comic called Batman but in a comic called detective comics and now Batman is in pursuit of Jack the Ripper. Um, and that's not necessarily known as like a great graphic novel, but it was a graphic novel I loved. And then at some point like Batman was like the Lone Ranger, but like seriously like not in in justest. So this world in my 20s of graphic novels emerging um became something I would do Michael on every Friday. I was in the beginning of uh building my this formula at this work and not wanting to go blind and be broke and my destressor uh wasn't alcohol. Uh, it wasn't drugs thankfully, but it was

going to at the Bergen Mall, the comic book store, and buying every single Batman detective comic, all the graphic novels, and and then I would, you know, spread to getting Superman. And there's, and for those again that don't know, there's there's like alternate story lines running for these characters as the proliferation of more and more comic books came out through the 1980s into the 1990s, and it's an entire universe of dynamics. So again, I thank you for all that. But so what year is this you're teaching at Indiana?

What year? I'm sorry, what year are you teaching these courses? Uh this was the early '7s.

Okay. So how did 72 34? Now Stan Lee is your mentor. So how do we move towards you and Batman?

Okay. So there were two giant steps to come. Two hours after Stan called me, I get a call from the president of DC Comics

and they said, "We've been um listening to you on the radio, reading about you in magazines. You're a very innovative young man. We'd like to fly you to New York and discuss ways we could work together." Uh, okay. Um, I'm in New York and they offer me a job where I would work in the offices during my summers and then they would put me on retainer and help me pay the rest of my way through Indiana University.

Wow. So, I'm I'm on the job less than a week in New York. It's the end of a day. I hear yelling and screaming coming from down the hall. I think somebody's being murdered. I go running down. It's the editor of a comic book called The Shadow.

The Shadow is a very, very famous character in the history of media. Dark, mysterious, and the singular major influence on Bill Finger and Bob Kaine in the creation of Batman and all the Shadows adventures took place in the 30s and 40s and it was the editor of the Shadow. So I said, "Are you okay?" He goes, "No, I am not okay." I go, "Denny, what's the problem?" He said, "They just told me they switched our publishing schedule and that a shadow comic book script is due in by tomorrow afternoon." I said, "So why is that bad?" He said, "Michael, it's bad because I don't have a shadow script. I don't have a shadow story. I don't even have an idea for a shadow story." I said, "I have an idea for a shadow story?"

He said, "You do?" I didn't. But I recognized that the door was open a crack. So I shoved my foot in. He said, "All right, come in. Sit down. What's your idea for a shadow story?"

You're going to love this. Um my wife Nancy at at that point, my girlfriend Nancy and I just came back from a trip to Niagara Falls. And we when we're were up there, we learned that back in the 30s and 40s, people were going over the falls and barrels and walking across Niagara Falls on a tightroppe. I said, "Picture this shadow and a bad guy battling on a tightroppe over Niagara Falls at night with flood lights going." He said, "Now that's a great visual. That'll make a great cover, but what's the story about?" I said, "Well, I was just getting to that."

The story is about smuggling. What are they smuggling? Well, they are smuggling drugs. And he says, "Well, Michael, you know a story. You need a creative take. You need something really creative." I said, "Denny, this is the best part. I've been saving it for last." Um um um um they were they were they were going over the falls and barrels back then. False bottoms in the barrels. That's where they hide the drugs. They go over the Canadian side. They wash up onto the American side. That's how they'd get them across. He said, "Now that's different. That's creative. Can you have a full script on my desk by six o'clock tomorrow?" I said, "Not a problem." He says, "Go do it. I'm now a writer for DC Comics."

I'm loyal. Unbelievable levels of selfmastery. If you're present to it, say yes.

Influence mastery. If you're present to it, say yes. Ecosystem merging process mastery say yes. He's got to have the dean say yes. He's got to have the press say yes. He's got to then have the creator of the shadow say yes. It's incredible. And the power of the stage and the microphone is what generates the inbound call from Stanley, Marvel, and DC. The intersection of the entire comic world is in search of Michael Eucelin because Michael has created a stage and a microphone for himself. Not only in the college classroom, but also in the media, on radio, on television. Why can't you do the same? If you're inspired to do the same, say yes. If you're willing to commit to do the same, say yes.

You don't need all the yeses. You just need the right ones. Present to it. Yeah. Let's hear for that. Okay. So, thank you, Michael. So, the shadow and please keep us going. This is a If you are enthralled, say yes.

Okay. Please. I pull an allnighter. I get the script done. I hand it in. Two weeks later, I'm walking down the halls of DC Comics, and who's coming toward me but a very important editor, one of the most important editors in comic book history, who introduced reintroduced the dark Batman to comic books after the that thing went off the air. And he's a gruff guy. He was a marshmallow once he got to know him, but he was pretty gruff. And he sees me come and he goes, "Hey, kid." I said, "Yes, Julie." He goes, "I read your shadow script." I said, "You did?"

He goes, "Yeah, it didn't stink." I said, 'Oh, thank you so much. Thank you very, very much. Goes, "How'd you like to take a shot at writing Batman?"

Oh my god. I still get the chills. I still get the chills. What did you What did you feel in that moment?

Stunned. Um, the fact that I can still, whenever I say it today, still get the chills up my neck gives you an idea of the impact it had. This was a dream I had since I was eight years old to one day write Batman comics.

And when that when my first Batman comic book came out through the tears, admittedly, I panicked. I said, "Oh my god, this dream I had since I was eight has come true. I don't have a dream anymore. I need a new dream." And that's when I remembered back that cold night in January 66. I said, "Okay, now's the moment. I got to go make dark and serious Batman movies. I have to show the whole world the true Batman." And that was the next step forward.

What may I ask, what was the um the was it Batman, Detective Comics? What was your first Batman creation?

Detective Comics number 460. T I want Detective Comics number 460 team. Um for sure. Yes, we

And if you want to see the shadow with um uh the Niagara Falls, it's the shadow number nine.

Let's guys, let's pull up and put up on the screen. Shadow number nine. Let's grab that. And Batman, Detective Comics, right? Detective Comics uh episode 460. So, Detective Comics 460, Shadow Number Nine, who shows up on the screen in the moment in honor of Michael. If you are inspired, say yes. Yeah. Yeah. And if you note, it's also Michael's influence, mastery in his contextualization, emotional, and energetic transference and delivery. If you're present to that, say yes. If you find, I'm not saying that Michael that you like Michael most.

That's not the question. Maybe you do. But if you find his influence mastery in delivering the truth of the points for you to take away is the most powerful of anyone yet on this stage. Say yes undoubtedly.

Yeah. But now come all the setbacks and all the heartbreak. So which is this now? Cuz I can't see.

Yeah. That's my first Batman story. Let's hear for that. And and what who's on I can't see him. Like what's on the cover? Well, first of all, you see the logo for DC Comics back in the 70s up there, the line of superstars. I designed that and u that was one of my proud contributions to DC comics. Um I figured if Batman existed in the real world and villains were analyzing this, they said nobody could be that great. Nobody could have so many skill sets. There has to be more than one Batman. And this group of criminals dec one clearly is acrobatic. One clearly is really strong. One clearly is super smart. And they believe that there are three men who together comprise a team that everybody believes is one Batman.

And Bruce Wayne gets onto this and sets them up so that it looks like what they're saying is actually what the case is. And then he uses it to boomerang back and defeat them.

Wow, that is absolutely unbelievable. Unbelievable. And how did you continue? Oh, do we have Shadow? Let's Let's go with Shadow. Number nine. Um, so yes, please take us from there. And then whenever you guys have shadow, just put it up. Um, so what happens from there now? This vision of bringing Batman to the big screen, please.

All right. So now I needed to go to work in the movie business, movie and TV business. But again, I know nobody in the industry. I have no relatives in the industry. So my senior year at Indiana, every Friday, I went to the library. They got a copy of Variety Magazine, which is the Bible for the movie TV industry. I took a yellow notepad and a pen. I'm that old. And um I would write down the names of any executive that I ever saw listed, what their title was, what their company was. At the end of my senior year, I had a list of 372 executives in the movie and TV industry and was able to type out and send 372 resumes to specific human beings, not to human resources.

Hold on now. Hold on now. So, if you've ever used AI, say yes. If you could produce 372 letters to ideal potential ecosystem partners for you in two hours or less. If you know that's true, say yes.

If you have not done it, say yes. No judgment. This dude did it on a typewriter. That's why he's sitting here. And there's no Yeah. One sec. One sec. One sec. One sec. Wait. One sec. It's not judgment to feel bad from. It's simply to make a behavioral change. He didn't dream of slaying the dragon. He went out and found the dragon and he sprinted into the cave repeatedly and continuously. There is no more efficient embodiment story of HODS than what you're sharing. The efficiency with which you're sharing this and and Michael mentioned in the green room. I was like, "Yeah, I kind of go off a tangent sometime like dude, you are insanely masterfully laser focused with unbelievable heart energy and transference. Uh I had no idea

how mass and I and I don't say to great like this is what I do for a living. This is my mastery in the world. The words I'm saying to you, my opinion is about as informed an opinion as on the planet. Like that's what I do and I'm just brother I see you. This is incredible how you deliver. But please over to you.

I attribute that to my mom. My mom taught me and my brother the meaning of commitment and perseverance. And um I go back to the little league story where I couldn't swing a bat and I had a jerk for a coach. I was eight years old. And at the end of one little little league game, come on, I'm eight years old. This coach pulls aside three of us just out of range of our parents where they could hear it and starts screaming in my face and says, "You guys all struck out more than once this game. You cost us this game. You're all you're the three of you are a bunch of clowns.

Get out of my face." Oh my god. And I went home hysterical. And of course, my mom had her mom radar going and she knew something was up. And I said, "I hate him. I hate this whole thing. I'm never going back." And my mom says, "Yes, you are." And I got really upset. She said, "Listen to me." She goes, "I'm going to talk to him. That will never ever ever happen again. I promise you that." But Michael, you made a commitment to your team that you would show up at every practice and every game. And sometimes when we make a commitment, it becomes a matter of what we call honor. And we have to honor those commitments. And sometimes doing that will cause pain. So you have to endure a little bit of pain. But this is a matter of honor and you have to fulfill it. You don't have to go back next year if you don't want to. And it was my mother's um making us understand this whole concept of commitment, perseverance, and

pain. Wow. That have helped both me and my brother through life. My my brother was in a horrible motorcycle accident.

Wow. Um he was in the hospital for a year. Oh my god. Had 26 operations. Oh my god.

And was the fifth micro surgery leg reattachment in the country. Oh my god. And through all that pain and all that suffering, it was my mother's what she put into him about persevering, enduring the pain, and getting across the finish line ultimately. So, it impacted us in different ways, but it was the same thing.

My god. Wow. Let's hear this. And and if I may ask this so clear, so we break things just for fun to give Michael a sense of like what we're up to. Just throw the full formula slide up there tank for a sec. So this conversation that you're sharing is for us the work that we claim we're in is the codification of all results ever produced in the world. It's a small claim. Um, and we say we have the only complete holistic diagnostic, dynamic, interconnected actualization tool for all of human AI business and mission acceleration on Earth that explains the rise and fall of the Greek and Roman empires. Explains the story of Moses, the proliferation of Batman and Marvel, your life, everything, mine, everyone's here. And so, we're having a conversation right now with your mom about selfmastery, the seven components that liberate or destroy our ability to take zone action. and you are a master taking his own zone action but then you

have to cause yes so it isn't just the perseverance it's the mastery just the concept of how you communicated with the people in the newspaper and how you frame it out this is outrageous it's a communist plot that's an unbelievable uh demonstration of human influence any place that came from was it your mom who's also a masterful communicator where is your masterful ability to create yes from we say And no, there's four steps, 12 indispensable moments, four energies in that codification. Where did yours come from? Cuz it is remarkable.

I think it comes from both my comic book influence and my Jersey influence. Okay, I was here for that.

Look, we have a Jersey attitude, right? That can't be beat. I got to tell you a story. Do we have time to

We have Dude, they could You guys could do whatever you want. If you want more of Michael, say yes.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Here's what I mean by Jersey Attitude. I had a comic book property um that I wanted to make into a movie and Bruce Willis was interested in it. This is many years ago. And his agent manager, I'm talking to them, and they said, "All right, we're going to set up a lunch for you to meet Bruce and talk about it." He said, "Michael, you know, Bruce can be um challenging um sometimes, and if he has a bad attitude or something, uh please don't take it personally." I said, "I think I can handle it. I'm okay." So, uh I go to meet him and he's already sitting down.

I introduce myself. Before I can even get my butt in the seat, he goes, "You know, the only reason I took this damn meeting was because they told me you were a Jersey boy like me." He said, 'Is that true or is that just more Hollywood BS?' I said, 'N no, actually that's true.' And he goes, 'Yeah. I go, 'Yeah. He goes, 'Where you from?' I said, "Well, I grew up at exit 105, and today I live at exit 145." At that, he smiles. He stands up. He goes, "Only a Jersey boy knows how to talk like that." Comes over and gives me a big bear hug. I said, "Bruce, where are you from?" He said, "Exit two." I said, "Exit two? Screw you. That's Delaware. That's not even New Jersey.

What the What is exit 2? Kate May is exit one. Pensing. Pen. That's okay. Pens. That that is supervised.

But he got it. You know, it it's this attitude. We both respected each other. That is super.

I think that's part of it. Yeah. Abs. So, let's throw up just shadow number nine real quick. I know we had uh I saw something in my peripheral before just so we can uh have that on the screen and get a quick description if you don't mind. I think um and as we are sourcing uh back to shadow number nine. So um we're not yet at Here we go. So this is uh

I can't see. Is that over the N? Did it end up being over Niagara Falls? The the

Yeah, that's Niagara Falls in the background. The light that's where it all started.

Yeah. And the shadow was was a great radio show. Is that right? Yes. Originally a radio show and a pulp magazine created in 1931. That is super cool. When and I I mean there's so much that I'm sure everyone does. Just out of curiosity, when were comics originated? Um do you are you present to that? Like what what's considered to be the first American comic book or around what time frame if if you happen to know Michael?

Well, there's different ways historically you can answer this question. Yeah. But I'll say the modern-day version of the comic book took place in the mid30s,

right? when a couple of brilliant guys decided to take a newspaper comic strip, fold it in half, fold it again, fold it again, staple it, cut it, put a 10-cent price sticker on it, and then dropped them off at a bunch of um little outlets around Manhattan and went back the next week and found they were all sold out. And he said, "Oh, this may be something."

Wow. And then the next major step forward was when a gentleman named Major Malcolm Wheeler Nicholson uh formed a little company, put out a company, a comic book called New Fun Comics in 1935. And that company ultimately became DC Comics. Uh joined in 1939 by um Timely Comics, which would later become Marvel Comics. And it was the need for superheroes as we were approaching World War II. That's what really propelled the comic book industry. Superman was created in Action Comics 1, June 1938, and that opened up the floodgates. Batman May 39, then came Wonder Woman, Human Torch, Submariner, Captain Marvel, and it it just exploded from there.

And Captain America was was that pre Captain America was December 1941. How's that for a coincidence?

Um, created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. uh they were two young Jewish men who were keenly aware of what was happening in Germany with Hitler, what was happening in Europe and wanted to bring it to the attention of the United States, which up till that point were really turning their backs on it. They were really not trying to uh acknowledge it. They were trying to appease a lot of people and countries. And on the cover of Captain America number one, there's Captain America slugging Adolf Hitler in the jaw.

Let's pull that up. Let's throw that up on the screen. Ad Captain America slugging Adolf Hitman phase Captain America one that is unbelievable the power of story the power of heroic unique identity is this landing okay you need your heroic unique identity you're not an accountant you're not an attorney you're not a financial service provider and if you are you are forgot forgotten before you're done with the sentence of what you do that is not what you do unless if you choose it. And that would be a very foolish choice about as foolish as leaving Batman on surfboards with spray shark repellent. If that is landing, say yes.

And being the the goofball comic, that is not your answer. Being the hero, if you hear that, say yes.

Okay, so please um now this vision of film is present. And where do we go? Now come all the setbacks.

Okay. 372 resumes went out. I got two job offers. Oh, sorry. What is that? Uh, out of 372 resumes, I got two job offers.

Wow. Uh, one was to go to work for a talent agency in New York, work in their mail room. Um, they were willing to pay me $95 a week. I would have to relocate on my own dime from Indiana to New York. Nancy and I planned on getting married after we graduated. I didn't think the two of us could live comfortably on $95 a week in New York City. Second offer from Los Angeles, producer of a lot of these big movies like Earthquake and Roller Coaster and some of the disaster films said, um, I'll make you a production assistant. Um, you'll go for coffee. You'll do a lot of back then we called it xeroxing. Um, move to LA on your own dime and I'll start you at $95 a week.

Plan B. always have a plan B and C and D. Let's hear for them. You never know about the twists and turns of life. So, plan B for me, reluctantly, bitterly, I went to law school. Um, the Vietnam War was still on. if I went to law school, I continued to get my 2S deferment from the draft and I didn't want to be there, but that's where I was. And um it turns out I don't think I could be doing what I'm doing today if I hadn't gone down that path that I didn't want to go down because I got out of law school and I had no job prospects. I wasn't making any headway.

Where'd you go to law school, Michael? Uh Indiana. Oh, cool. Stayed in Indiana for the whole time. got my masters and my doctorate there. And um so Nancy and I moved back to my parents' home. We were living in my the bedroom that I grew up in. And we were there for months. I was working construction on my dad's crew while I was trying to go for interviews in New York. Nothing was happening. I remember the one day I just teared up. It was I said, "I'm going to be working for my dad the rest of my life. This is going nowhere." And it was at that moment in time where um I got a call from United Artists, which was a major motion picture studio, the only one based in New York City, and they said, "We have a legal business affairs job open. Um the head of it saw your resume and would like you to come in." Now, what they didn't know is I had two resumes.

One was just mentioning about legal and how I I I had done a a legal paper, never mentioned I wrote comic books or anything. And the other one never mentioned I went to law school. So I was sending two resumes to each movie and TV company, one to legal and business affairs and then one to production and programming.

Wow. So I was getting two job interviews at the same company. Um I I had this one thing in LA. It was my first job interview. Um, I pull into CBS Television City in Hollywood and I have a meeting with the head of legal and business affairs. I'm in a three-piece suit with an attache case. I have a rented Ford Pinto and um I go running across the parking lot up the steps down the hall. There was a receptionist there clearly from New York. And um I didn't know that they kept people waiting for meetings. I had no idea. So he kept me waiting for like 40 minutes before he would see me and I had my next interview with the head of programming at CBS and I was running right into it. So I finally got up, I had my interview with the lawyer and I look at my watch. I've got six minutes before my meeting is supposed to begin with the programming person at CBS. I run down the hall past that woman, run

down the steps, run across the parking lot, get in the backseat of the Ford Pinto, and I change my clothes. I put on jeans, a t-shirt, a Steven Spielberg type baseball hat. I went back rushing back in. I go up to the same receptionist. I said, "I'm I'm I'm here for the programming meeting." And pardon my French, but she looks at me, she goes, "You got balls, kid. A a quick superhero costume change is what I hear from back seat. Yep.

There was no phone booth around. What could I do? Yes. Um so now what year are we in?

We are in 76. Okay. 1976. So it would still be am I correct? It's three more years until you

that I I finished law school working for my dad and then I get the call from United Artists. So I go up to UA. They offer me a job. I really don't want a legal business job, but it's all I got on the plate. So, I said, "Okay, I said to Nancy, I'm going to do this for no more than four years, as if it's graduate school. At the end of four years, I'm going to quit. I'm going to try to learn everything I can and network like mad. But at the end of four years, I am not going to be trapped into being a lawyer for the rest of my life.

I am not going to wind up doing people's wills and estates and taxes. I will at the end of four years I'll either be writing and producing movies, TV and animation or I'll be delivering pizza for Dominoes, but I will not be trapped being a lawyer. And that was and plan B worked. Plan B worked. They put me in charge. I learned so much. They put me in charge of the legal, business, financial affairs of the first three Rocky movies.

Wow. A beautiful movie, if you've never seen it, called Black Stallion. Yes. Yeah. a movie that's on everybody's top 10 list of all time called Raging Bull.

Wow. And for two and a half years of my life, a movie you've probably all heard of called Apocalypse Now.

Oh my god. And that was a crisis every day of my life for two and a half years.

So Charlie Sheen was here. Is that is it am I correct that at some point Martin Sheen was wandering naked through the streets of the Philippines in Apocalypse Now? Did that actually happen or no? Well, what happened? Martin Sheen and Marlon Brando were the two stars of the picture and this was taking place in the Philippines. They build all these sets. They're ready to go and Martin Sheen had a heart attack. So, everybody had to stop and wait for him to recover. Then a typhoon comes through and destroys all the sets. All the sets have to be rebuilt. And that's just the beginning of that story.

Wow. Uh um Charlie Sheen said two days ago that they began to call it apocalypse never. um was that like in terms of like their family and he was living in the Philippines. So all this amazingness and what about these Batman rights?

So I was coming up past my three-year mark at in at uh United Artists. I knew I had my next vow that I had made that I was going to quit by the year four. So I went back to the president of DC Comics, the man who mentored me into DC when I was teaching the course. His name was Saul Harrison, a wonderful man. I said, "Saul, I now have the credentials. I've worked at United Artists now for over three years. I know how to do this. I want to buy the rights to Batman and go out and make dark and serious Batman movies and show the world that Batman is not a pot-bellied funny pow zap wham guy." Saw looked at me. Did you ever see the poster for Home Alone?

He looked at me like that. He goes, "Michael, for God's sake, don't do this." He said, "Don't you understand that since Batman went off the air in television, the brand is as dead as a dodo?" He said, "Nobody's interested in Batman anymore." I said, "Yeah, but Saul, nobody's ever seen a dark and serious comic book superhero movie before. This is going to be like a new form of entertainment." He said, "Is there any way I can talk you out of this crazy idea?" I said, "No." So, he said, "All right, come on in." And that began a six-month negotiation that gave me six months to find the right partner who had been through the loop on this, who was a legend in the movie business. He was my dad's age. His name was Benjamin Melnicker. And we raised money privately. And all the people who put up the money, none of them knew a thing about Batman.

They put their money on me, not on Batman. And on October 3rd, 1979, we signed the piece of paper. I now bought the rights to Batman. I put it in my back pocket.

And And is it okay to ask, "What did that cost?" A lot. Yeah. A whole hell of a lot.

I'm still a kid in my 20s. How does a kid in his 20s, by the way, it's a Batman. I mean, today, impossible. Nobody could even envision or imagine it. I flew out to Hollywood with Batman in my back pocket. Said, "This is gonna be a piece of cake. Everybody's gonna see the chance for sequels and animation and toys and games." I was turned down by every single studio in Hollywood. They told me I was crazy. They said this was the worst idea they ever heard. They said, "You can't make serious comic book movies. You can't do dark superheroes.

You can't make a movie out of an old TV series. Nobody's ever done that. And as a result, folks, from the day I bought the rights to Batman till I could finally get our first movie made took me 10 years. Wow.

10 years of rejection. 10 years where Nancy and I did not know how we were going to pay next week's bills. 10 years of figuring out how I keep a roof over our head and food on the table. Um, when I bought the rights to Batman, Nancy was uh 6 months pregnant.

Wow. And we were building our first house and I just quit United Artists at at the let's see, it was two months after our son was born, giving up our medical plan, our dental plan, my pension, and my bonus. Oh my god.

Because I had a great support system in my wife Nancy, in my parents, in her parents, and you can't do it alone. You've got to have a support system,

people. And what do we have up here on the screen team? What's up there? Oh, I know her.

That's Nancy. That's Nancy. That's amazing. Let's hear for Nancy. Amazing. So, if I can inject a couple of important things you need to know about my wife. We met first day freshman year at Indiana.

She was not even unpacked when we went out for the first time. And for four years, everyone said, "You don't fall in love with the first person you set your eyes on in college. It doesn't happen." We now have been married 52 years.

Amazing. And yes, it's a Hollywood record. Um, but here's what you need to know about my wife. She does the important work in the family. Nancy has an NGO, a nonprofit boots on the ground in Rwanda. She has personally um set up programs of literacy teaching kids English and critical thinking. She has is right now financed and is building her ninth clean water project in Rwanda that's impacting the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. She started a vision care program when she saw no kid in Rwanda had a pair of glasses and found that there was no eye care outside of the capital. She is now a consultant to the United Nations.

Oh my god. And her first children's book was published recently by McMillan. So wow. Holy Nancy. Um Edg is a small token of my gratitude. I'd like to for my Caligie Christian Foundation make a donation of $25,000 to NY's. So, thank you so so much. Thank you so much.

Small token of the impact and again I'm very confident this is uh the beginning not the end uh for sure.

So, thank you. Um and the team will handle that. So, you acquire the rights. It is 10 years of all this insanity.

So, how do you finally get a yes? Um, think about where you were 10 years ago. Imagine 10 years of no. And NY's hanging in there and their family's hanging in there and they're staying by Michael's side to pursue this dream and they chose very very wisely. So, how do we get a yes? What happens?

Two steps in this process. Um, number one, everything changed in 1986 when a young genius named Tim Burton came into our lives. Here was a young Disney animator and Warner Brothers said, "We're setting up a screening of the fine cut of a movie this kid's done for us. You got to see it and tell us what you think." It was called Peewee's Big Adventure. And I came out and I said, "I have never seen more creative combination of direction and art direction in my life. I'd love to meet him." And I had three lunches with Tim.

By the end of the third lunch, I knew this was the guy. And here's how he made this all happen. How he revolutionized Hollywood and the world cultures perception of comic books and superheroes. And here's how he did it. I always call it the big idea. Tim Burton's big idea. He said to me this one particular day, "If we are going to make the first ever serious comic book superhero movie, this movie cannot be about Batman." And I just wanted to fall to pieces in the ground. I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "This movie has to be about Bruce Wayne."

Ah, we have to show a portrayal of Bruce Wayne so driven, so obsessed to the point of being psychotic that people around the world who have never read a comic book before will say, "Oh yeah, that's a guy who would get dressed up as a bat and go fighting a guy who looks like the Joker." And Tim's correlary to that was from the opening frames of the movie, Gotham City had to become the third most important character of the film because audiences had to suspend their disbelief and believe in Gotham City before they could believe in all of this.

Wow. So 86 was the turning point. But then I had a problem. I had no money left. I had been doing everything I could, trying everything. I was in debt. Um, and it looked like I would could not make it any further. Now, I talk about support systems. NY's father, who is a founder of the Cincinnati Eye Institute, flew out to New Jersey. He sat me down. He goes, "You know, Michael, this is why you went to law school, so you would have something to fall back on if things didn't work out." He said, "You've tried your hardest. That's the measure of a person's success. Not what you've achieved, but by how hard you've tried.

so you can't feel like you're a failure, but now it's time that you gave up your dream and became a lawyer and took care of your family. And I said, I understand that and I'm prepared to do it. It's just so frustrating because I'm so close, you know, while we're waiting for Batman, I've been developing an animated series and I've got such interest in it and we're making such progress. And he goes, "Let me ask you a question." He said, "How long do you think it would be before you have in your hands not a deal, not a contract, not a promise, but a check for six figures? How long do you actually think that would take you?" He said, "And think carefully." I said, "Five months." He said, "Five months?" I said, "Yes." He said, 'All right, I'm going to pay all your bills for the next five months, but at 6:00 p.m., five months from today, if you do not have a check for six figures in your hand, you

agree you will have given it your best shot, and you will go be a lawyer and be content with that. I thanked him profusely. For the next five months, I was working 20our days all the time and I was pushing on the animated series pushing and all the guys who were working on it with me at Colombia Television and an animation studio called Dee, they knew about the pressure I was under. Turns out that they got all the contracts signed for it. They got this the commitment from the um from the different broadcast networks and they held back the contract and the check until the last day.

And sometime between noon and 300 p.m. a FedEx truck pulled up in front of our house.

Come on. And there were the signed con there were the signed contracts and a check for six figures. I was able to pay back my father-in-law and that gave me enough money to get to Batman. So sometimes you can't do it alone. You need a guardian angel. You need a support system. I had mine, dude. Like again, look at this. No, nobody else has had standing ovations. This is unbelievable.

Crazy. How is this not a movie? How is you How are you not a movie? Right. Well, well right.

I am happy to announce first of all, I wrote my memoir. It's called The Boy Who Loved Batman. uh available as Stanley always said, Michael, get in the plug whenever you can. Uh available through Barnes & Noble.com and Amazon. Um I also recorded the audible book version of it if you don't want to read.

Yes. Um and I'm proud to tell you that Netherlander Worldwide, which own about half the Broadway theaters, theaters in London and all over, they are turning my memoir into a Broadway play. Unbelievable. Unbelievable, dude.

We uh we did a workshop we opened in Tampa, Florida at the Stra Center for the Performing Arts for 6 weeks. We got a standing ovation at every performance and they are now looking for an A-list star to play me and my wife Nancy. And um the goal is within the next year or so uh to open on Broadway followed by London.

Wow. Unbelievable, dude. Just a guy as a son of a stone nation uh from the Jersey Shore. Like this is what we got going on. Yes. So, um Okay. So, and what was the animated series?

Dinosaurs. Now, you never heard of it. We did 65 half hours in syndicated TV. My son David when he was little there were two things he loved. Outer space and dinosaurs. And I thought, gee, that's just like me when I was growing up. In fact, I think every kid loves outer space and dinosaurs. So I thought, how can I combine dinosaurs and outer space? And I have my best thinking, creative thinking when I'm shaving. So I was like, dinosaurs, outer space, dinosaurs out of dinosaurs. And I got the name. And then I worked up backwards from there and created this uh TV series about dinosaurs from outer space who come to Earth, meet four kids, two of whom were my kids, and uh they take them around and show them what uh Earth and humans are like and the evil Tyranos follow and uh it it was a great series. We had a lot of fun.

That's awesome. Awesome. So, um, now the first Batman movie, uh, I saw it in its opening at the 10plex in Paramis, New Jersey, no longer there. Uh, it was the first multiplex cinema that uh, I ever experienced and it was it was tears came down my uh, face. I couldn't have been more thrilled and elated to experience all of this. um Jack Nicholson as the Joker. Uh the depth of it, um people actually died. Um people had um chemicals being thrown in faces and dropped into vats and all sorts of incredible things. How did you feel about the movie?

When the movie was completed, there was a special screening for a group of us and my partner Ben turned to me. We we had to go into the theater through heavy velour black curtains. And he stopped me. He goes, "Michael, you're going to go through these curtains right now. You're going to come out two hours later and your life is going to be changed." And he was right about that. Um it was it it changed the course of my whole life. What I thought would be a mission, a job turned into a career and then basically my entire life. Um, I want to tell you about when we opened, right before we opened, I had a special premier screening for family and friends in New York City. And I got to speak for about 10 minutes or so before then.

When I was in seventh and eighth grades at Ocean Township School, I had two English teachers, Mrs. Stiller and then Mrs. Freriedman. It was Mrs. Stiller in seventh grade who told me I had a creative ability and that I needed to believe in myself as a creative writer. And she thought that I had the ability that I could use this as an adult in my work. And then she passed me off to her sister-in-law, Mrs. Freriedman, who had a red pen. She was the roughest, toughest teacher you could imagine. At the end of the first day of English in 8th grade, she asked me to stay and I went up to her desk and she said, "Michael, Mrs.

Stiller told me about you and she showed me your portfolio of your creative work. I think she's right and I have very high standards in this class. But if you really truly want to become a creative writer, it's more than just having ideas. Creative ideas. Anybody can have creative ideas. You would need to become a master of your craft of writing. If you are willing, I am going to then hold you to a higher standard than anybody else. I am going to be as tough as possible. When you're going to learn um vocabulary, you're going to read so much. You're going to learn how to diagram sentences and understand structure.

and she was as tough as nails for me. Wow. So, the night of the Batman premiere, I found Mrs. Stiller, Mrs. Freriedman, and I think that Mrs. Freriedman was in Florida. Uh, I can't remember where Mrs. Stiller was, but I brought them up and I sent a limousine to bring them to my premiere.

Wow. And as I spoke, I said, "For those of you who don't believe there are superheroes in real life, you've never met a great teacher." I said, "There would be no Batman here tonight. There would be nothing here tonight if it wasn't for two great teachers that changed my life." And I said, "Now, if you ask them, they will say they've gotten everything they could want out of life from teaching their generation of students." I said, "But there's one thing I know they've never gotten, and that's a standing ovation." And they got a standing ovation that night. Wow.

Dude, unbelievable. Unbelievable. Unbelievable, dude. Crazy. The power of story, emotional, energetic transference. Incredible. So um and that's what actualizers are. He was consulted. He was trained. He was coached. And what was the word that they told him he had to have and achieve? Say it

one more time. That's our word. Whole bunch more movies. And what are what is what are your rights? And just so that the the room knows and how would they appropriately describe your relationship to Batman in the cinematic world.

I'm his godfather. Yeah. Um so I'll tell you I'll sum it up in a story. Um we were down to Ben Ben Melnicker and I were down to pitching to the final studio. All studios had rejected it. Colombia was the last student studio. So, we go in to pitch Columbia and it's this stapper dressed silverhaired guy. He'd been at the studio for years and years and years. And I pitched my heart out for a dark and serious Batman. And at the end of it, he turns to me and Ben and he goes, "Michael, you're out of your mind. Batman will never be a successful movie because our movie Annie has not done well."

I said, 'W wait a minute. Are you talking about the little red-headed girl from Broadway that sings the song Tomorrow? He says, 'Yeah. I go, 'Well, what does that have to do with Batman? Oh, come on, Michael. They're both out of the funny pages. Nobody wants to pay money to see a cartoon character walk and talk. Oh my god.

And with that, he then said, "Look, I'll tell you what. I will consider making a Batman movie, but it's got to be that pot-bellied, funny pow zap wham guy because that's all audiences will remember and love. And I looked at him and I said, "No." And with that, he brought his chair, leaned into me, and he said, "Son, when people call me son, I know I'm in trouble." "Son, better to have a movie made than no movie at all." And I said, "No." That was the end of the meeting. We're now on a park bench sitting on the lot of the studio. My head is down and Ben's sitting next to me and he goes, "You know, Michael, don't you think it was ironic that our last no came from you?"

He said, "You know what that makes you?" I said, "I know, Ben. I'm an idiot." He says "Oh no. You have this vision for Batman that you believe respects the integrity of his creators. You defend Batman. You are protecting Batman. You are Batman's Batman.

And that's my role. Wow. And to get the plug in. That's the name of volume two of my memoir. So what happens? How does how does that how how do you find the actual making man of the movie? Who says yes?

Ben said, you know, um I just got word that Casablanca Records, which were the kings of disco back in the day, uh Donna Summer and all of those, um they just got an influx of money from Polygram in Europe, and they're going to open up a film division. the guy in charge of it, he said he uh Ben knew from 1969. He said he's much younger than all of the studio people we've pitched to. He's a lot more hip. He may get it. So he got uh Peter Goober on the phone at Casablanca Records and he put me on the phone and I pitched it over the phone from New York and Peter said, "I love this idea."

Like pause for a quick sec. So Peter Goober, you guys have ever heard of Tony Robbins Platinum Partnership? Peter Goober is the inspiration for Tony Robbins platinum partnership. Peter Goober uh became great friends with Tony Robbins and invited him into a group that they called the Scorpions and they traveled and went places together and invited Tony in. He felt like he didn't belong. He was 32 at the time when he was first invited and he had to put up like 30 grand for the trip and they were going all over Asia uh flying private and that was the genesis of the concept the platinum partnership and Tony and Peter Goober are still incredibly great friends this day. They own interest in professional sports teams together etc etc. So you know Peter Gruber back to you please. So, it was Peter and his partner Neil Bogart and uh we went out and did an official pitch in front of them and they said, "We'll make this. We

have an output deal now. We're going to make movies through Universal. It'll be a Universal picture." And the then you can imagine what happened. Casablanca faded away. Uh Polygram pictures came into play. There was another company for a second and a half called the Boardwalk Company. Then there was fil uh Universal, then Filmways, then 20th Century Fox, then finally Warner Brothers came into the picture as everybody else kind of disappeared, but it was a 10-year process.

Unbelievable. So then, um, the original Batman movie is a massive success, critically acclaimed, Jack Lucas and the Joker. Um, and then there was a number of other movies um that we worked through and that Danny DeVito is the Penguin and we have Val Kilmer and George Clooney as Batman, Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze. Um, you know, the the um Jim Carry as a Riddler. So, we have that sequencing of movies. Um, you just if we could and because we're we are finally running a little bit short on time, how how does that all sort of transpire? What does that mean to you? And and then we'll jump into Christopher Nolan and the next step in the process, but what what does that those years mean and look like? And how was that all for you, Michael?

All right. Well, I'll start out with it was um it was Memorial Day weekend of 1980 and I'm in New York getting ready to get on the bus back home to New Jersey. I got the afternoon paper, the post. I open it up to the movie section and there I see two big movies are premiering, The Empire Strikes Back,

and another movie, a horror movie called The Shining. And I see this picture of Jack Nicholson for the first time. You know the Here's Johnny shot. Yeah.

Where he's like peering maniacally around a corner. I go, "Oh my god, this is the only actor who could play the Joker."

I tore the picture out. When I got home, I ran to my desk. I took white out and I whited out Jack's face. I took a red pen and I did his lips. I did a magic marker. I did his hair. And that's what I showed to everyone connected to Batman. I said Nicholson. He's the only one who could play the Joker.

That's unbelievable. When he was hired, it was the greatest day of my career uh to that point. Yeah. Absolutely amazing.

Unbelievable. And for those that don't know, the Riddler, I mean, sorry, the Joker um is a deeply deeply disturbed villain. like and the complexity of his relationship with Batman, which is told in in a litany of different ways over the course of the comics and movies, and Michael can speak into this a thousand times more massively than I. Um, but in the simplest essence, there is this incredible interdependence where the Joker loves Batman, despises Batman, needs Batman, tells Batman this continuously, and Batman has this element of integrity and humanity at the foundational core that prevents him from ever killing the Joker. And there's this dance that goes on into eternity of the Joker continuing to come back and back and back and back again. And this dance continues forever. And so what I'm hearing you say, Michael, is that Jack Nicholson in this amazing moment of The Shining, which my dad took me to see at

10 years old. Uh my dad my dad made a lot of like very poor movie decisions. He he took me to see Count Jorgga when I was three in the movies and thought it was child appropriate. And recently, and my dad was in the hospital for fun energy, I asked our ACT eyee, is Count Yorga appropriate for a three-year-old? And the first sentence was uh Count Jorgga is completely and totally inappropriate for a three-year-old was the headline sentence. Um but what I'm hearing to say is Jack Nicholson in this sense of derangement of the character in The Shining could not have been um and no other human in acting could possibly have embodied the derangement of the Joker um like that. Am I hearing you correctly?

Yeah. And and I mentioned the Joker specifically. Uh, first of all, in 1998 8990, the uh, Motion Picture Academy was mostly a bunch of wellto-do white-haired white guys who were like the dean at Indiana that I pitched to looking down their noses at comic books. There is no way back then the Academy would vote for Jack Nicholson in a comic book movie as best actor. He should have. uh had he been in it in more recent times, he would have won the Oscar for that.

When Chris Nolan came along, Heath Ledger plays the Joker. Heath Ledger wins the Oscar for it. Then when Todd Phillips comes along and does Joker, we Phoenix wins the Oscar for Joker. We really should have had three times where actors won the Oscar for Joker. But that's the bridge for me from one filmmaker to another filmmaker to another filmmaker.

Unbelievable. And so so that that run then because I we're going to show a couple clips from the um we we saw the the surfing and pow wap bam. Then we'll take a look at the Dark Knight in a minute. But just you know that period of the which by the way I love every all those movies uh cuz every time Batman's on the screen I love him. Um, I know some love some of those movies more than others. Love them. Um, but just for you, if I we can encapsulate that that grouping of, you know, the Danny Devito Penguin version, um, Mr. Freeze, Riddler, um, as Jim Carrey. What did that period mean, uh, to you and to Batman?

Uh, to me, as a comic book geek, um, these movies represent different eras of the comic book version of Batman. Tim Burton's Batman was really the Batman of 1939 into 1940 before Robin and it was much darker and um he captured that really well. When you look at what Dear Joel Schumacher did with Batman Forever, uh it was more the Batman of the late 40s and into the 50s. Batman and Robin punting their way against uh a rogues gallery of super villains, hopping on giant typewriter keys, and they captured that era. Uh the Clooney thing was the TV show Redux. Um

I'm hearing your deep abiding love for it. And with Val Kilmer, I thought he he was more like the Batman of the comic books of the 1990s. He was a deeply mysterious and dark romantic version of Bruce Wayne and I thought very effective. It to me it evoked Frank Langela's Dracula which he did on Broadway and in a film that showed that villainry could be romanticized and be attractive.

Yeah, I saw Frank Langella as Dracula at Montlair State University at one point. It was unbelievable. Uh amazing. A bome boy, by the way. Frank Langella.

Amazing. Um, can we hit um Bane Batman in their uh initial interaction in the Dark Knight Rises? Can we hit that team?

Oh, yes. I was wondering what would break first. Your spirit. Oh, your buddy. That is not shark repellent uh on a surf wave. And uh pow web bam. Um thank you. Well, as Bane said,

so um when when this happened and just in all I loved all the Batman movies prior and I still achd for this and this is the third of the trilogy. And as Michael and I were chatting in the green room, he said, "This is really one movie in three acts." Um, Batman Begins, Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises. And if you have never seen Batman Begins and you only relate to The Dark Knight as like this incredible movie, and there's other movies around that time, it it's one story. And Batman begins contextualizes the dark knight and the dark knight rises. The dark knight rises completes the dark knight. And these are just absolutely masterful. And I think where critics get it wrong sometime and and these were all critically I mean acclaimed for sure but is to to and people following the words of critics is just so often missing the point of things and these movies were received masterfully but to compare one to the

other I think is just a mistake. It's just one thing right is is what it is. Um, and so the completion, Dark Knight Rises, Batman Begins, amazing. And when I saw Batman Begins, the level of gratitude I had, Michael, and everyone for this is who I knew Batman to be, and I loved the 1989 Batman with Jack Nicholson. I mean, loved and I loved all those movies, but this is from my heart, my soul, my being. This is Batman. Um, yeah. And so, thank you, Michael, for that from my heart. Right.

I appreciate that, Sean. Let me mention two things about Christopher Nolan's Batman movies. Number one is when Chris came aboard, he had to restore the darkness and dignity to Batman after Batman and Robin. And he went about it just like Tim Burton had to, but 180 degrees different. He was not going to build Gotham City. We did. We actually built five square city blocks of Gotham City on the back lot of Pinewood Studios. He was not going to do that. He wanted to make this movie feel real. He wanted to convince you that Batman could be real today. The Joker could be real today. And he had about five challenges to try to overcome. So number one, how do you prove that Gotham City could be real?

He didn't shoot it in New York where as soon as you see Central Park or the Statue of Liberty, you go, "Oh, it's New York." And it breaks your sense of disbelief. So, he chose Chicago. You take two buildings out of the skyline of Chicago and people around the world cannot identify the city and you still have Lower Wacker Drive and a lot of interesting places where I watched him actually flip a semitr. Um, so he made Gotham City real. Then he had to make you believe Bruce Wayne could be real today. A young man struggling post-traumatic stress syndrome on a journey of personal discovery almost like Lost Horizon and through the casting of Christian Bale made us all believe that that could really happen to a person today.

Yeah. Then he had to make you believe the Joker could be real. And this was his testament to 9/11 and the aftermath of 9/11. And the Joker was conceived as a modern-day terrorist, someone who places no value whatsoever on human life. And you fear him. He was scary and he was real. Unfortunately, the last thing, which was the biggest challenge, was how is he going to convince all of you all this tech, all these gadgets could be real? That was a hu challenge. He hired Morgan Freeman to tell you it was real.

And if Morgan Freeman says something's true, by God, it's true. Yes. Amazing. For those who haven't seen, that's Lucius Fox is the character and he works in Wayne Enterprises. And they were developing so much of this for um military contracting companies and the military. And then it went into a side project and it was revived by Lucius Fox as he began to sense it and was requested by Bruce Wayne who went away. And in the movie um in the story um Batman Bruce Wayne Christian Bale as playing Bruce Wayne uh loses himself and he goes traveling around the world and to find his heart, his soul, his being, he's robbing, stealing. He's trying to learn what criminals look like and decide what he's going to be. He finds this group called the League of Shadows.

And they take him in to train him to recreate him to find uh to channel this energy. But then they were going to violate the very principle of Batman wouldn't. And they killed the bad. They killed who they decided were bad. And they were judge, jury, executioner. And these people who trained and developed Bruce Wayne, the League of Shadows, asked him in their final step to kill someone who had stolen. And in front of all of the people that had made him what he had become, he had to now fight them. And that is why Batman Begins is such an unbelievable movie, film, story. And it's your story.

It's what we're doing here. At least you can choose to decide that because I am Batman. That's Batman. You're Batman or Wonder Woman or any of these characters. Wonder Woman has some superpowers. This is real. If you decided this and the breaking of the back by Bane, that's your fear of picking up the phone. That's the person who mocks you and says you think you know what you're talking about. That's what Michael faced over and over. That's why you stood because he's living the living embodiment of Bruce Wayne into Batman.

Integrity. integrity and mastery. He was just a kid from Jersey who had masterful teachers who who gave him we say this Michael we teach this this is not made for you today you just are bringing forward what we teach all the time they've heard me say these things a thousand times I'm not saying it through the prism of you as example influence is the only human attainable superpower that's his superpower that's your superpower And then selfmastery comes in when we face the joker, face Bane, most often inside of our own head.

And then we create the fiction that the other person saying no to you is actually trying to kill you and destroy you and break your back, which is a complete joke and lie. And our work here is to deal with truth. And what I just spoke is the truth. And the truth is it's all a fiction. That's not the fiction. The crap we make up about why we don't send out 370 letters when it could take us two hours or pick up the phone and cause yes with people and the right yeses. That's the truth. If you feel that truth in your heart and you see the possibility available for you, say yes.

Okay, brother. Thank you for that. And then if we could, let's go with broken back. Your back is broken. Whether that's your bank account, your heart, your vision, possibility, what people say to you. So here lies you buried in your worst nightmare. You're broken. You're lying there. You've tried to climb out. You try to escape and you can't and you can't. And then you have your next actualizer who tells you you need to make the climb like the child did without the rope. So you can find fear again because you need fear to drive you and not fear of what's in front of you but fear of that final day on your deathbed and having stood and sat and stood and sat in this room and heard this and heard this and heard it all.

And I promise you and I want this for you. If you do not this day, may it haunt you on your deathbed. May you have that blessing of remembering this moment and to fear that every day from this day forward. And let's see how Bruce Wayne handled it. Please think

Hey, up. I have to find the Sahara. Heat. Heat. You rose from Michael because you experienced him doing that in his life story. The hopeless in this prison, this hell are all the humans on earth who suffer blind, unable to see, and are seeking you to light their way as Michael has lit the way here today. And when you rise, all of these people would have laughed and mocked and laughed and mocked and they roared and cheered as we always do for the rise. You rose and cheered, but with great respect. Almost all of you would have laughed at Michael in 1971 and five and nine and 80 and 82 and 84 and 86. And the same people who laugh at you laughed at him and laughed at me.

The difference is like Bruce Wayne, Michael Rose, and you can too. Whether it's in money, scaling, or impact overall, that you chose the back right corner on day one. If you are recommitted to that truth, say us. Okay. And sir, when you watch that, how does that feel for you and what's present, please?

It's so powerful. You know, over the years, there's one scene from Dark Knight that people keep talking about and asking me about and commenting on telling me how this particular scene impacted them. It's a scene that takes place on a ship and the people are on the ship and they are given a moral choice. Do they press this button and blow up the other ship filled with people in order to save themselves or do they not? And what people tell me is when this scene comes up and what is it? It's about what do you do when you have to make a moral choice and your choices are bad and worse?

And they tell me in the darkness of the movie theater by themselves, no matter who they were with or who they were around, they had to come to terms and think what they would do in that situation. Would they press that button or would they not? And I've had people approach me at screenings and all with literally with tears in their eyes about the impact that that had on them introspectively. Um, and for a comic book superhero movie to have that kind of thematic uh heft was really really amazing.

Yeah. Okay. If I say this then go back and what I appreciate Michael for me personally most about that scene because you know one person you know posted about Charlie Sheen being here and he shouldn't be here and what's he doing here and all these these terrible things he did in that scene. It is the law enforcement people, the prison guards, the warden that wants to or the head of the prisoners that wants to blow up the other ship of the prisoners. And it is the prisoner and the guy struggling who takes from him and says, "I'll do what you can't." And what he thinks is the guy's going to press the button to blow up the other ship. This guy's a, you know, a murderer, you know, a prisoner. They're transporting his prisoners. And he takes it and he throws it overboard to make sure it doesn't happen. And what that means to me is the same conversation we had. But for the grace of God, go I. Who are we to judge? And

because someone has made a mistake just like we've all made mistakes, it does not mean that they are still not heroic and capable of heroism. So I also thank you for that moment and that unbelievable power. And by the way, just for fun, I wasn't lying when I said I was a big fan.

Thank you. Um I'd like to offer one last story to you. Um, at the time of Dark Knight, I got a call from a colonel at West Point and he said, "Mr. um, every year the cadets of West Point have a cadet's choice award that they award to the one who they feel most embodies the code of honor of West Point." This year they elected the Dark Knight Batman and they said would you possibly consider coming up here uh accepting the award and speaking to our cadetses.

Wow. So I said absolutely. I would be honored to do that. So Nancy and I went up there and it was magnificent and they said we're going to do this at lunchtime and it's 4,500 cadetses standing at attention at their tables. They bring me into this meet meeting hall or eating hall that was like a set from Harry Potter. The Vikings could have built this. It was stone coming to a V with a stone balcony and vaulted ceilings and flags. It was incredible. So, as we're going up to the top for this, I said, "You know, you never told me how long you'd like me to speak. Would would you like a half hour? Do you want 45 minutes? Should it be Q&A?" And he said, "Oh, I'm sorry." Sorry. He goes, "Um, our lunch time here is only 15 minutes, so we'd like you to speak for about 2 minutes." And oh, we're on.

And they present me with this award, which was amazing. And they hand me the microphone. And I'm looking out over 45,500 cadets standing at attention. And I just said, "Cadets of West Point, when Bruce Wayne was a boy, he saw his parents murdered before his eyes on a concrete altar of blood." At that moment in time, he sacrificed his childhood and made a vow. He promised that he would get the bad guy who did this, that he would get all the bad guys, even if he had to walk through hell for the rest of his life in order to honor that commitment.

I said, in doing so, he became an urban warrior. He became a legend. He became a dark knight. I said, "Cadets of West Point, you are Batman."

Amen. And at that moment in time, there erupted applause and yelps and they were on the chairs and it was like incredible. And it went on for a couple of minutes and it it was just this amazing amazing moment. But it was punctuated one week later when I open my mail and I get a letter from a woman and it went something like this. Dear Mr. Eucllin, you don't know me. I am the mother of one of the cadets that you spoke to last week at West Point. In May, our kids are all going to Afghanistan and Iraq.

This is serious business for our families. I don't know if you understand what you and Batman have done here, but right now our kids are walking across campus high-fiving each other, doing chest bumps with each other, going, "I am Batman. You are Batman." She said, "What you've done is give them a calling card. And in the years to come when they once again may encounter each other on some foreign battlefield, this will be their calling card. And I can't thank you enough for that. And if Batman and my journey have done nothing else, that for meant everything.

Wow. Let's hear from Michael. One more time, let's hear from Michael. And I want to thank you. Let us hear it for Mr. Michael Yuselin.

If if this was remarkable for you, say yes. Remarkable, masterful, impactful, say yes. And last thing I would say, Michael, is people will die for their identity. And thank you for doing that for our nation. Thank you doing all the people in this room. And thank you for giving Batman his truest identity. And may this last forever. And I thank you, Michael. Thank you. THIS IS WHAT JERSEY PRODUCES RIGHT HERE.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Michael Uslan: The True Story of Batman With Sean Callagy"?

Sean Callagy (Host), Michael Uslan (Guest).

What is "Michael Uslan: The True Story of Batman With Sean Callagy" about?

Michael Uslan shares his passionate journey of reviving the Batman franchise, reflecting on the skepticism he faced while pursuing a dream that began in childhood. Despite doubts from industry insiders that serious comic book movies could succeed, Uslan's perseverance and commitment ultimately transformed Batman into a cultural icon, illustrating the power of determination and belief in one's…

What is mentioned in this Sean Callagy episode?

19 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Batman, Michael Yuselin, Dark Knight, The Joker, Tim Burton, Stan Lee. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Michael Uslan: The True Story of Batman With Sean Callagy"?

The episode runs 1 h 55 min; the transcript is about 18,094 words in 238 timestamped sections.

More from Sean Callagy

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 12, 2026.