Sugar Ray Leonard: Belief, Influence, and Winning the Mental Fight

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on Sugar Ray Leonard's journey to success, emphasizing the importance of self-belief and hard work over innate talent. Leonard shares insights about the emotional and physical challenges he faced, including his relationships with family, and reflects on his accomplishments, such as winning an Olympic gold medal alongside his teammates.

Key takeaways

• Hard work outshines talent; belief transforms skepticism into victory, even when everyone tells you to quit.
• Winning Olympic gold? Priceless. But the journey there? The real gold is in resilience and self-belief.
• Childhood beatdowns led to boxing glory; sometimes, the toughest siblings forge the strongest champions.
• Inspiration doesn't come from ease; it blooms when you ignore the naysayers and chase your dreams relentlessly.
• A punch from Sugar Leonard? Worth a black eye if it means a story for a lifetime.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Sean Callagy (Host) · 32 min speaking
• Sugar Ray Leonard (Guest) · 21 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: University of Maryland, Roger Leonard
2. 5:00 – 10:00: Ray Charles Leonard, Roger Leonard, Joe Frazier
3. 10:00 – 15:00: Wilfredo Benitez
4. 15:00 – 20:00: Elvis Duran
5. 20:00 – 25:00: Elvis Duran
6. 25:00 – 30:00: Tommy Hearns, Elvis Duran
7. 30:00 – 35:00: Tommy Hearns, Angelo Dundee
8. 35:00 – 40:00: Tommy Hearns
9. 40:00 – 45:00: University of Maryland, James Morton, Seven Up
10. 45:00 – 50:00: Elvis Duran, Larry Merchant

Notable quotes from "Sugar Ray Leonard: Belief, Influence, and Winning the Mental Fight"

• Believe in yourself. Words can't describe the feeling of the Olympic gold medal. He used to beat on me a lot. My brother, Roger, he just he hit me. I said, I start crying.

  about Roger Leonard · at 0:08

• It's like when I won the gold medal in the Olympics, there was nothing compared to that. winning the gold medal because we were not expected to win anything and we won five gold medals.

  about Ray Charles Leonard · at 3:03

• Which he did write in the book that is a line in the book is like I never want anybody get hurt. I always prayed that nobody would get hurt except Roberto Durant and it was like this great cliffhanger and then came back later.

  about Elvis Duran · at 6:25

• And thank you. Thank you for that. And then would it be okay if we showed a clip from when you fought Wilfredo Bonitez? I think we have that. Is that okay with you?

  about Wilfredo Benitez · at 14:25

• If you have not read Sugar Lennon's autobiography, it is absolutely amazing and a must readad. It is on audible. I don't recommend books often. It is so powerful to go through the story and.

  about Sugar Ray Leonard's autobiography · at 21:27

• Everything. Stick my chin out and everything. It worked. I wouldn't always do that. I wouldn't do that with Tommy against Tommy Hearns.

  about Tommy Hearns · at 29:27

• So that's Angelo Dundy who was trainer for Sugar Leonard but not the only one.

  about Angelo Dundee · at 31:24

• Their thing, their talent, their power, their like Roberto I mean like marvelous Marvin Haggler. He was ambidextrous. He was fast, powerful, strong, could punch. Tommy Hearn's tall, fast, power, Durant. So I just That's just I'm telling the.

  about Marvin Hagler · at 35:53

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Ray Charles Leonard — Person · Main guest (interview subject; referred to as 'Ray/Rey') · 1 mention · first at 7:57
  Central figure of the episode; discusses his upbringing, Olympic gold, pro career, major fights, and later-life challenges/recovery.
• Elvis Duran — Person · Referenced opponent/rival (key storyline: Duran I & 'No Más') · 4 mentions · first at 19:12
  Major foil in the narrative: psychological warfare, first fight loss, rematch leading to the famous 'No Más' moment, later reconciliation.
• Tommy Hearns — Person · Referenced opponent (super-fight; rivalry and respect) · 8 mentions · first at 29:35
  Used to discuss elite competition, coaching (Dundee’s corner advice), and Leonard’s integrity about their second bout being scored a draw.
• Marvin Hagler — Person · Referenced opponent (late-career super-fight) · 2 mentions
  Represents the 'impossible' challenge: Leonard returning after years away to fight the feared champion; used to illustrate belief, preparation, and tactics.
• Wilfredo Benitez — Person · Referenced opponent (title fight clip; 1979) · 1 mention · first at 14:31
  Serves as an early proof point of Leonard’s legitimacy as champion; discussed alongside media skepticism (“hype”) and the stoppage win.
• Roger Leonard — Person · Referenced family member (brother; formative influence) · 2 mentions · first at 0:12
  Key childhood relationship: described as physically tough on Ray, indirectly pushing him into boxing and shaping resilience.
• Angelo Dundee — Person · Referenced coach/trainer (corner voice in Hearns fight clip) · 2 mentions · first at 31:24
  Presented as an elite trainer who delivered pivotal in-fight guidance (“You’re blowing it, son”), reinforcing coaching impact on performance.
• Joe Frazier — Person · Referenced inspiration (style comparison) · 1 mention · first at 7:30
  Leonard describes initially emulating Frazier’s style, then switching to Ali’s style after seeing the damage Frazier took vs Ali.
  Month, one, I just said, I want to be a good boxer, a great boxer. And I love Muhammad Ali, and I love Joe Frasier.
• Larry Merchant — Person · Referenced boxing media figure (HBO team; commentator) · 1 mention · first at 48:48
  Used to illustrate skepticism around Leonard vs Hagler; cited as predicting Leonard would lose and challenging him (“prove me wrong”).
  Yeah. Even people closest to him. So he was in the boxing team at HBO with a guy named Larry Merchant. And even Larry Merchant was betting was predicting that Sugar Ray Leonard…
• James Morton — Person · Referenced advisor/managerial contact (post-Olympics career pivot) · 1 mention · first at 42:36
  Credited as a catalyst encouraging Leonard to turn pro and helping set up financial/professional management connections.
  Yeah. it just didn't happen. a friend of mine, James Morton, after the Olympics said, You want you going to train? Are you training pro?

Books & papers

• Sugar Ray Leonard's autobiography — Book · Primary recommendation · 2 mentions
  Highly recommended by the host as a powerful and inspiring read, narrated by Sugar Ray Leonard himself.

Companies & orgs

• University of Maryland — Company · Referenced institution · 3 mentions · first at 3:19
  Mentioned as a place Sugar Ray Leonard considered attending for further education after winning the Olympic gold medal.
  But coming home, my whole vision was to go to the University of Maryland, further my education, get a good job, take care of my wife and my kids, my family.

Products & tech

• Seven Up — Product · Incidental mention · 1 mention · first at 40:03
  Mentioned in passing as part of a nostalgic reference to Sugar Ray Leonard's commercial appearances.
  Yes. So, this is Sugar Ray Leonard transcends boxing and please.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 I didn't have the talent, but I I worked so hard. When people tell you you can't do this, you can't do that. You have to believe in yourself. Words can't describe the feeling of the Olympic gold medal. He used to beat on me a lot. My brother, you know, Roger, he just I mean, he hit me. I said, I start crying. I cried all the time. the greatest US boxing team in Olympic history as not only Ray won the gold medal but four teammates won the gold medal.

0:29 This world from dragging me down going to stand. I just want to do THIS just making sure it still works.

0:46 Thank you very much. So we're going to box the next five minutes. I think we're we're going to see what happens. Um, yes. I don't think it's going to go well for me. Yes. But we might wrestle. Do we wrestle?

0:57 Are you okay with that shot? Um, yes. I am good. I thank you for pulling the punch because I am clear that that not would not have felt good if it did. No, of course I am.

1:07 I do. So, yes, it was amazing. So, I I the honor that this is, the privilege this is um is amazing. And but the truth is that um I can't imagine this is going to be any better than what happened last night. But I'll do my best because sitting next to Sugar Leonard at the Peppercorn's restaurant, which was a half a mile away from where I started this crazy journey, quit my job, open my first law firm. I used to go there twice a week to have lunch. I love it. We're in the back, you know, in a beautiful private area. and the love, the empathy, the fun, the presence. The man flew in exhausted. I had no thought that he would even go to dinner last night. And there he is at dinner. And I'm sitting next to him shoulder-to-shoulder. He's like bumping into me. He's fun, magical, heart-c centered, a master of masters.

2:03 So, um, and I will not call you. I don't want to get punched again. So, not I will not I will not call you Mr. Actually, I do want to get punched again. I would love I would love if you punched me like 10 more times. That would be amazing because then I could like go home and be like, you know, I could take pictures and have a black eye and say, "Sugar Leonard gave it to me." So, it's amazing. So, Mr. Leonard, just how are you? Like, how is life? Like, what's going on? What are you up to, please? I know you told me last night, but what do you want to tell these people about where your life is now? And then we'll go back to the beginning.

2:33 You know, I I just feel so blessed from where I've been, from what I've done, from what I created. Um, the thing about it, I'm I'm shy, non-confrontational, but sociable, if that makes any sense. But you know what, guys? Um, I'm a blessed man.

2:57 I mean, from what I've done, from where I've been, from what took place from day one, um, it's like when I won the gold medal in the Olympics, I mean, there was nothing nothing compared to that. I mean, winning the gold medal because we were not expected to win anything and we won five gold medals.

3:16 Yeah. But coming home, my whole vision was to go to the University of Maryland, further my education, get a good job, take care of my my wife and my kids, my family. But you know what? It got even better than that. You know, I was able to inspire people. Uh because people tell you what they can't do. They say you can't do this, you can't do that. But you know what? You have to believe in yourself because if you don't, no one else will.

3:48 What's here for that? And and so so Rey, and this is what he asked me to call him. I would call Mr. Leonard. And he threatened to punch me again if I called him Mr. Leonard. Um but Rey could have gone to the University of Maryland on an academic scholarship. He's a brilliant man and he did not want to box professionally after the Olympics. His goal was to represent our country and to win the Olympic gold medal and after he did to be complete but then you know he had his his dad and his mom, his family and the beautiful things he wanted to do. So he went into professional boxing.

4:24 Um but is there anything from your childhood, Rey, they'd want this group to know about how that began to form and shape who you were? anything in your your childhood growing up in Maryland or do you want to jump right into you know leading up to the Olympics and you know your boxing career?

4:41 Well, I tried out for the 1972 Olympics. I wasn't as u experienced qualified um but I I went through it. um the 76 Olymp I mean it was meant to I tell you it was meant to be because first of all I mean I didn't have the talent I thought but I I worked so hard you know again I I hate to be redundant but when people tell you you can't do this you can't do that you have to believe in yourself

5:15 yeah and Ray didn't you didn't if if I recall if I if I don't remember this right then just tell But didn't you have an older brother

5:23 that used to Yeah. And didn't he used to beat up on you a little bit growing up and then that changed?

5:28 He beat he used to beat on me a lot. My brother, you know, Roger, he just mean he hit me. I said I start crying. I cried all the time. Uh but I go to my mom. I said, "Do hit me." She said, "Sweetheart, punch him back. I punch him back." And He took me to the boxing gym and I was introduced to boxing and I was doing this like this and I said I don't want to do this anymore.

6:02 But then again, you know, it was God-given. I mean, I I believe in God. No question about that.

6:11 And I pray every day, every single day. Uh even before a fight, I pray before a fight. And I don't pray the way I pray no one gets hurt except with brother Duran

6:25 which he did write in the book that is a line in the book is like I never want anybody get hurt. I always prayed that nobody would get hurt except Roberto Durant and it was like this great cliffhanger and then came back later.

6:38 No, that's a hate I said but but we're friends now. So, and so Rey, do you like is there was there a time do you remember when what it was like when you when Roger couldn't beat up on you anymore

6:54 and now you were able to beat up on Roger? Like is that did that is that something that you recall or it's not really something that was meant something to you?

7:02 Oh, no. No. Come up again. My brother, he was I love my brother, but he he used to just smack me upside the head just because I was sitting there. Uh, you ever experienced that, guys? Huh? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm I'm cry. I always go to my mom. Always go to my my mother. And then one day, one one year, one one month, one, I just said, I want to be a good boxer, a great boxer. And I I love Muhammad Ali, and I love Joe Frasier. And I used to fight like Joe Frasier. And then when I saw Joe Frasier fight Ali and I saw his after the fight, it was like punched up everything. I started fighting like Muhammad Ali

7:52 because I think you you said you you didn't want your face to look like Joe Frasier. You wanted your face to look like Muhammad Ali.

7:57 Muhammad Ali. Yeah. Yeah. And my name my real name is Ray Charles Leonard. My mother named me after Ray Charles. I I can't see.

8:06 I can't just Well, in the in the shower I can see. It sounds good. But no, I tell you, I try to be as humorous as as I possibly can be because sometimes I take things too deeply,

8:18 you know, and I don't know if that makes sense or not, but you know, it's Yeah.

8:23 I keep saying life is what you make it. And so did when you and team do we have MJ uh tank, do we have a couple clips ready or we do not?

8:34 Amazing. So, is it okay if we if we step into a couple of different clips from your past? Is that okay? And we show them on the screen.

8:42 Well, the ones I want. Uh, yes. Yeah. So, yes. Well, we we'll do that. So, uh, maybe let's go with um either the Olympics. If we can start with the Olympics, great. If not, maybe Wolfredo Bonitez. Do we have that team?

8:58 Thanks, Tink. Great job. Let's start with the Olympics. Was that okay if we uh Yeah.

9:02 Yeah. to show the Olympics. Now I'm blind, so to me you look the same. Yeah. By this Cuban fight and I mean he can

9:14 that Cuban fighter is now in desperate trouble. Another standing eight count. There can be no other way. We're counting down. 18 seconds. 17 seconds left in the fight. 16 15 14. Ray Lennon with the right leg on the left cleaning up. The Cuban is ready to go. The referee stops the contest. The crowd goes wild.

9:42 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? You know what? You was generally D when I walked up here.

9:55 Yeah. You You think you can take me? No. No. I'm I'm serious. No. No. Come here. Come here. Come here. Come here. Come here. Come here. Come here.

10:08 Holy I didn't I didn't I didn't realize he was that tall. Yeah. Nobody ever does.

10:15 Yeah. Yeah. But But let me show you something. Chair. Thank you. Oh, thank you. That is amazing. So, uh,

10:31 no yes, Lanch, you're okay, right? Um, so do you remember that guy? That guy in the Olympics? Do Do you remember him?

10:41 Alderamus. Is that Cuban? Okay. Yes. That's what all those I mean, do you remember the Sugar Ray Leonard? That guy that won the Olympics. Do you remember that guy?

10:52 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. And how um how how did that feel you like what what were you feeling coming out of winning the gold medal?

11:02 Words can't describe the feeling of the Olympic gold medal. You know, it was so incredible. It was it was just special, very competitive, and it just it it it made me who I am today. that that that thought those that way of thinking.

11:25 Yeah. Because I whatever I do and get involved with I'm so optimistic. Same thing with boxing. Life is a fight.

11:34 Yeah. Life is a fight. and and and you and you were telling me that um the toughest person you've ever fought may not have been um some of the people you'd think like who who is the toughest person that you you ever have a fight with? my wife.

12:05 And And so Yes. I'm I'm serious. I'm not. Huh? Yeah. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Yeah. So, um

12:16 I love you, bro. Yeah. So we um and and this was super fun. So um Ray's wife had set up um some martial arts training fighting with this amazing guy Baxter and Baxter tells a great story about it that um he came and said, "Hey, like what do you want to work on today?" And um Ray, yeah. Do you want to share what you you told Baxter you want to work? Because he was gonna, you know, there's kicking, punching, there's all the things, but

12:51 Yeah. No, I said, "Hey, man. I want to learn how to kick and I'm pretty good with my hands."

12:57 Yeah. Baxter, where are you, Baxter? That's That's my man Baxter. Let's hear from Baxter.

13:04 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um Yeah. So in in 1976 Olympics, much like we discussed for some of the people have, I I recently had the privilege of um spending time with Mike Rousion uh from the 1980 miracle on ice gold medal hockey team. And first of all, he said his toughest fight was his wife too. So that may be that may be a thing to like talk to like Saudi Arab or something. I'm not sure. But um what also um was true is that Rey was fighting against a professional as an amateur because the Cubans like when Mike Rouion played hockey against the Soviets, they were professionals. So Ray was an amateur young man fighting against professionals. And this is why nobody thought the 1980 Miracle and Ice Team was going to win the gold medal and they did. and nobody thought the United States would ever have five gold medalists. So, he's a group of I think to this day the greatest US boxing team in Olympic history as not only Ray won

14:15 the gold medal, but four teammates won the gold medal. Like just completely unprecedentedly insane. So, I just want to make sure that that's clear. Let's hear for that by the way. And thank you. Thank you for that. And then um would it be okay if we showed a clip from when you fought Wilfredo Bonitez? I think we have that. Is that okay with you?

14:34 Yeah, I won that. I think so. Okay. I think so. I I I'm pretty sure cuz cuz it's 19 Hold on a second team. 1979 and I am um I'm going to be a a a weeblo like a cub scout and we have our blue and gold dinner and I fight and fight and fight and go from hello to yes with my mom that I could miss my blue and gold dinner and I could be there watching somebody who is becoming a hero of mine that I saw as a six-year-old win the gold medal and now I'm 9 years old and he is fighting um I believe it was on WABC DC wide world of sports. He is fighting for the welterweight championship of the world. But he is fighting against a guy who I think was undefeated, Al Wilfredo Bonitez, who would who at 17 years old had become the youngest uh professional fighter to ever win the uh a world heavyweight champ, I'm sorry, a world championship in boxing. And this is who Sugar Red Lantern is going to fight against. And

15:37 some people are like, "That's gonna be a pretty tough fight." So, how are you feeling about going in to fight Alfredo Bonitez? Um, how was that for you?

15:46 I was very optimistic, but I I I thought I thought I always think that way. You know, you just have to believe in yourself

15:57 because if you don't, no one else will. Amazing. All right. Yeah, Tink, let's see what was going on in 1979. He got him down again. It seemed almost inevitable. Look at rubbery leg. Wobbly looking at the crowd. It doesn't dilute the courage he's shown or the skills he's shown. Maybe now they won't call Sugar Ray Leonard a hype. There it is. He stopped the Woo!

16:37 Yeah. You know, and you know what happens, folks? You heard Howard Coell say it. They called Sugar and Leonard hype because when you own yourself, when you talk about who and what you are, people say it's hype. But with this man, what was it?

17:02 The truth. What was it? The truth. This man's the champ and that's the truth. And he just beat a man that was a champion of champions and he dismantled him and became a champion. So, it's here for Sugar Rail. Thank you. Thank you.

17:16 And and so and Ray, you you and I I think you and Howard Coell became friends. I mean, is that right? How how' you how did you Yeah. You want to tell us anything about Howard Coell?

17:31 No. Howard was a a a dear friend of mine and uh I mean respectfully I we we spent a lot of time together and we became friends and uh yes it was special.

17:47 Yeah. And at some point late we'll get that in a little bit but um is it okay because I think it'll be I think it'll help set up something else. Are you okay if we show a little bit from Montreal or is that not okay?

18:03 Montreal. Yes. Okay. So, uh Wanda, you remember? Oh, but then was it Montreal also Roberto Durant? Is that okay if we show anything from Duran won? You'd rather not do that?

18:13 I used to hate this. I'm sorry. Just you know, you don't ask people you you don't like. No, he because he would I mean he would curse me. He would curse my wife. I mean I No. Yes, he did. And I was like I'm and I was so angry but he he he use experience to kind of get into my head.

18:42 Yeah. And I fought his fight. I fought his kind of style because nor I normally I move around the ring and I I well I utilize the ring and I slip and slide. But that time I was trying to just take him out right away. But it happened the other way.

18:58 Yeah. But it was results. Yeah. And so so a lot of folks again like no matter what you do, people are going to still say you're not real. So he's the champ. And now people are saying, well, he can't beat Roberto Duran and you know, Sugar Ray Leonard's not going to be able to fight like Roberto Duran fights. Like he's not a tough he's not tough. He's just a boxer. And then what Ray is saying is that he got um he got sort of not sort of he got influenced by Duran to fighting Duran's fight and standing toeto- toe and he and Sugar Ray Leonard fought an unbelievable fight and lost a very very close decision that could have gone either way. But let but we're going to set up the punch line after this where they fought a second time. But let's just see the first one real quick.

19:48 Team, do we have that? All right, Tank, go ahead, please. You sure you have it?

19:59 Birdie Leonard is flatfooted. He did not come out to dance. He wants to go toe-to-toe with him.

20:04 He's faking. He's slowly cutting. You see that? Oh, he took a hard left. Leonard wants to trade with him. Leonard wants to trade with him. And Durant is willing to oblige. He buckled Leonard and he feels it. He's holding on. Leonard is in trouble. Doesn't have to fight THE 15TH ROUND.

20:35 THERE'S the clock. Seven. I can't believe it. Six. I can't believe it. Four. Durant thinks he has WON THE FIGHT. I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. It's over. Bele was a maniac.

21:06 Yeah. So, close decision, doesn't win. And remember what Ray said, Roberto Duran like cursed his wife, said the most vile crazy things. Like this wasn't an act. I mean, this guy was a complete maniac saying terrible things. And you know um and I certainly read the book. If you have not read um Sugar Lennon's autobiography, it is absolutely amazing and a must readad. It is on audible. I don't recommend books often. It is so powerful to go through the story and it's read by um you know Sugar Leonard himself. So I highly recommend it after right after the fight you know what was what was that like for you after the Durant fight?

21:51 Words can't really describe what I felt like because I knew I felt I fought the wrong fight. But he got because boxing is not just about punching guy. It's it's about here. It's about here. about there. And uh he he he beat me more physically, I mean psychologically than he did physically.

22:15 And I learned a big lesson from that. And then and then what happened? What took place like I asked for a rematch and it was like less than six months which is unprecedented because normally fights of that significance.

22:30 Yeah. takes couple years before it happens again. And uh I did something to him. I I stuck my chin out and I did this and hit with

22:41 Yeah. So So tank tank, we got do we have uh do we have Duran Leonard 2? We got that tank.

22:51 Let's go. Let's hit it. Show that. Here we go. What a fight and what a different pace establishing his movement in the early going. Establishing his ability occasionally to work that jab. Leonard has fought a totally different fight and not allowing Durant to pull him against the ropes every minute of every round the way Durant did first time around

23:45 again. Octavio Meeron of Mexico, the third man in the ring. No posturing this round by Leonard.

24:03 I think people have underrated the physical strength of Sugar Ray Leonard. He is much stronger than his body appears. You see the time

24:21 the pace has slackened in this round. It would have had to. I think that time it was Leonard who was holding

24:42 keeps those hands moving right there. A good left. A good right. He is working Durant effectively and Durant must resort to pulling in. And he does. He was He was so mad.

25:31 Let's hear it for Sugar Ray Leonard. So So I cried. I was so grateful when this happened. And my dad, who we rooted for, all the same people in teams, was rooting for Roberto Durant.

25:57 Yeah. Yeah. Where's my father? Yeah. And Yeah. And so, so last night, I'm telling Ray this last night, he's like, "Let's call your dad." So, we get my dad on FaceTime last night. He and Ray pulls his hat down over his head. He's like, "Hey, Bobby." He's like My dad's like, "Yeah." He's like, "Hey, Bobby." He goes, "I want to fight you." And he pulls up his he pulls it out my back. And it was unbelievable. Like, "Thank you so much for that." That is imagine be able to do that for your dad. Like how crazy that is. So great.

26:30 Like, "Thank you. Thank you for that." Right. Right. Unbelievable. And so, um, and so when the reason I I'll give my perspective that I'll ask his since he was there. Um, but my perspective is the reason that Roberto Duran quit, they call it the no Moss fight. If you've heard of the no Moss fight, say yes.

26:54 So they call it the no Moss fight. No more because Rey, Roberto D Ranch had no answer. So everything he was trying to do, Sugar Ray Leonard was mo you just saw the movement like he just couldn't do what he wanted to do and it was just he had Roberto Durant had no answer for Sugar Ray Leonard and Ray was in his head. He was taunting him. He was putting his chin out. He was like bull punching. He's doing all these things. And Duran was getting angrier and angrier and more and more to the point he made this guy this stark raving lunatic, somebody you call very significance driven, very in the language, I'll use the language that people used about him, machismo, like top level. He made him quit in front of the world. Walk away and just quit.

27:41 That's what this man did. Thank you. Thank you. But with his the man that cursed his wife. Yeah. Let's hear. Let's get up for that. Thank you.

27:58 Let's hear that for you. Let's hear that for you. What you did? So, and so and he made him quit though with his fists. He made him quit with his body, his feet, his movement. And he made him quit with his mind and his influence. He was influencing him. Influencing him. Influencing him, by the way, with integrity. And the influence that Ray Leonard was bringing forward was, "You can't beat me, man. And I'm going to humiliate you. I'm going to embarrass you, and you're going to have more of it and more of it and more of it and more of it to the point that he quit." That's what he did. So, at least that's my story. Uh, you were there. you did it. Um, so please Ray, like what was that like for you and what what do you think act what do you want the audience to know about what happened?

28:47 Well, words can't describe what took place that particular night and because Duran, you know, I mean I used to hate that guy, man. Really I used to hate him and cuz all of a sudden and it just happened spontaneously. I mean, I was moving around. I did that. People started laughing and I started doing this and doing this and hitting with that one.

29:14 And he was just so he it was just his mentality made him quit. He was so mad and so angry and I because I was making people laugh and I was shuffling and everything and doing this and everything. Stick my chin out and everything. It it worked. I mean, I wouldn't always do that. I mean, I wouldn't do that with Tommy against Tommy Hearns.

29:38 But that's that's hard work. Amazing. Strange. And now, speaking of Tommy Hearns, do we have uh anything from that, Tink?

29:47 Oh, wow. I'm glad you brought Tommy Hearns up, please. And by the way, Tommy Hearns uh we fought again a second time.

29:56 Tommy deserved to got the decision. I mean, I it would call it was called a draw,

30:02 but Tommy deserved that. The win. He was here for integrity. I've yet to I've yet to tell Tommy that.

30:14 Yeah. Yeah. And you you could tell Tommy that. Don't tell me that. And don't tell my dad that because I because I fought my dad to this day about that. So, nobody tell my dad that Sugar Regulator had said that.

30:27 Repeat that again. I'm sorry. Repeat that. You said what now? I I said that my dad, please don't tell my dad that you think that Tommy Hearns won.

30:39 Yeah. Cuz I've fought against my dad to say that you won for my entire life. So, I don't want my dad to win the argument. So, please don't tell my dad.

30:49 Okay. All right. We We all on the same page. Yes. Thank you. So, don't tell Tommy Hearns and don't tell my dad. Okay. Um, so let's see it, Tank.

31:04 I'm sorry. Must be way ahead on points. He certainly is on my card and mine. You're blowing it.

31:21 Let's pause it, Tank. Pause. So that's Angelo Dundy who was trainer for Sugar Leonard but not the only one. He often came in later in the process but he was in the corner and he ran the corner. He was Muhammad Ali's trainer like just unbelievable who crazy and in that moment you heard him say you're blowing it son you're blowing it son cuz Sugar Ray Leonard was behind on points. This is the first time he fights Tommy Hearns. This is the next super fight of his life and his career, right? And Tommy Hearns is now people saying he's going to that Sugar Ray Leonard can't beat Tommy Hearns and Tommy Hearns this massive, you know, puncher and they called him the hitman. And now they're fighting and Sugar Ray Leonard who remember everybody's saying is a boxer is a boxer. He's got to knock Tommy Hearns out because he doesn't knock out Tommy Hearns. Tommy Hearns is going to win. So Tink.

32:15 Oh, what a hook by Hearn right keeps coming on. He's a fool. Letter takes the better punch.

32:28 19 seconds to go. Kenny Weather. I don't know. He's hitting on the brakes. He's doing everything. 12 seconds to go. H is in desperate trouble.

32:39 The Bell cannot save him if it goes down. That has counted a knockdown. He's letting time run out. It's time that

33:00 Yes. Now, do we T do we have the end or we do not? Mike, do we have the end? What bud? Okay. So then let's just get that and we'll come back to it. Do we have Marvin Haggler? That silence means no. So Oh yeah. So okay, Michael just be getting the end of the Tommy Hearns fight when Sugarlander knocks him out. Um coming up and then we'll go Marvin Haggler first. But real quick for everybody. So what I think that represents for you is there's privilege windows that open up and your influence. And what Sugar Ray Leonard did is he caused a moment of a window to open. And when that window opened, you're going to see it when we show the rest of the ending of the fight in the next round that he finishes. And if you think what you just saw right there was bad for Tommy Hearns, wait till you see what happens in the ending of what he does to Tommy Hearns because the window open and this man finished.

34:08 And you got to finish. You got to finish in the causing of Yes. And this man finished. Let's hear for that.

34:15 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and and Michael, just real quick, Michael, how long do you think until we can show the clip of the ending of the the next round, the knockout?

34:25 Cool. Okay. So, um so how do you So, when Angelo Dundee is saying, "You're blowing it, kid." You know, you're blowing it, kid. What are you feeling? And what do you like? What are you even thinking in that moment? Are you just focused? like what's it like to be in the 13th round? All these minutes, all these punches going back and forth, you know? What what's that like? You know, please.

34:50 That's a that's an inner inner thing. When Angelo he said the perfect words, the perfect sense. You're blowing it on. I mean, that was so simplified, but it was real. And I knew I had to to really get up and and go for more. You know, it's it's it's an amazing thing or amazing feeling. Especially in boxing.

35:14 I mean, it just one of those moments those moments in your life that that you have to like succeed, push forward.

35:26 Yeah. Who Who is the toughest fight that you ever had beside your wife? Actually, actually like in the in the ring, who was the

35:35 I mean, I'm not a joke. It's not a joke. Now, so that's why I don't I don't I try to laugh, but I don't laugh. Yeah. But no, my wife is tough.

35:46 But who was who was the toughest in the ring opponent? Like which fight it you know

35:51 I tell you I mean they they all had their thing, their talent, their power, their like Roberto I mean like uh marvelous Marvin Haggler. He was ambidextrous. He was fast, powerful, strong, could punch. Tommy Hearn's tall, fast, power, Durant. So

36:17 I just That's just I'm telling the truth. And then Yeah. And then Sugar Leonard came back and beat Duran another time. So he won the Nas fight, then he come back and beat him again uh later. But while we're working on getting the the clip for the end of the Tommy Hearns fight, we'll do Tommy Hearns first and Marvin Haggler. There's something that you shared at dinner last night with me and and I would never, you know, go to a place that anybody doesn't want to go to cuz I, you know, I don't think it's relevant. Um, unless they do. And for Rey, it's very relevant cuz he had some other challenges during his life that he powered back from uh amazingly and beautifully. So, is there anything that you'd like to share about some other, you know, challenges that you came back from?

37:03 Well, I I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober now for 18 years. You know, and you know, it's it's interesting that as much as I had achieved in the ring and then what have you, uh, I wasn't totally happy. I was, you know, I I was happy that I was able to take care of my my parents and my siblings, uh, my friends, just people in general, and I help, but all of a sudden I all I was, my life was not fulfilled. I was not I was not totally happy.

37:41 And I went to drinking and uh and I and again, I'm I'm kind of shy to a degree, but I when I drank, I felt good. I was like, "Yeah, and I can dance, too." When I was when I was drunk, I I did tons of cocaine, you know, but you know what? And uh because I heard my my mother found out that I was doing drugs and alcohol and I just cold took I just stopped doing cocaine. I just stopped all of a sudden. The alcohol was a different story because I was, you know, I I go into a bar or whatever, just take a couple drinks always to tequil. Who likes to kill them?

38:26 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't drink too many? No. Yes. Just two a day. No. But and I I tell you and I and I support I support a

38:43 That's what got me out. FL. Yes. Yes. Yes. You know, and you know, from from the book, it sounded like, at least from the book, and we talked about it at dinner last night, that maybe there was some people around you. You had some people around you that loved you very much and wanted to protect you and help you. But it also sounded like sometimes there were people around you that wanted to use you and take from you and maybe that had something to do with some of this at least. You know what is that true, not true? Like what what was how how'd you deal with the people around you?

39:22 Life is not perfect period. And you know what? You sometimes you find out the hard way or the right way, but there's never really just a right way. But you know what? It's it's it's within you. It's you. You you you can make your life better. And I I tell you, like in the boxing ring, I I I went the distance. It life I want to go the distance, too. And I you know, I feel good. And thank God for sure.

39:54 Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. And then Tank, do we have um or Michael, do we have um the Seven Up commercial or do you not?

40:06 Seven Up. Let's see that. Let's see that for fun. The Seven Up. Really? Yeah. A long time ago.

40:15 Yes. So, this is Sugar Ray Leonard transcends boxing and please. Okay. Oh my go.

40:43 Wow. I got this. No, that's just my dad. Thank you for that. That is amazing. That is amazing.

40:56 Yeah. Yeah. And we had the blessing of having um Sugar Ray Leonard Jr. on the Heart of Influence a couple years ago and I shared that with Ray last night as well. And I mean like just make the sound of how that feels in your heart.

41:09 Yeah. Yeah. And and that's what this man did. transcend to boxing like and and he also was a great analyst as I explained for boxing and he was fun and funny and brilliant and witty, clear, precise and you know what I think also was is a very true thing just you know so you guys know that most athletes um things don't end well for them financially um they're not appropriately taken care of and protected but you know I'll anything you want to stand at Ray or not, but a lot of the the names we've mentioned that Ry fought, they they did not end up in a good place financially.

41:50 They did not end up in a place where um they were living in a secure, positive environment. And Ray won that game, too. He won that battle. He won that fight. And he lives a beautiful life and he has abundance and security and positive things. And so, let's also give up for that.

42:09 Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And any anything you want to say about that, Ray? How did you you know, a lot of guys, you know, ended up in really really bad places and you ended up in a really really beautiful place and anything that you attribute that to? Was there anybody who helped protect you or anything you want to share?

42:28 Yeah. Um, it it just didn't happen. Um, a friend of mine, uh, James Morton, uh, after the Olympics said, "You want you going to train? Are you training pro?" And I said, "No, because I I didn't want to turn pro." I was I was kind of through. I was I wanted to go to the University of Maryland because I had a scholarship and uh further my education, get a a good job and you know help out to some degree my parents. And when Jon said, "Ray, you know, you can make some good money." I I did that and I I landed up, you know, I let him take care of everything financially and everything. And he introduced me to a guy named Mike Trainer. Mike Trainer is my attorney.

43:19 and God bless him. U because he's no longer with us, but he took care of me big time. U he made me an independent boxer for the most part.

43:31 And uh I just had good people around. I I had just good people around me. Yeah.

43:38 And all I had to do was get in my ring and take care of business. That's awesome.

43:42 And it happened so wonderful. And And you said you said no to Don King, I think. Is that right?

43:48 Oh, Don King. Yeah. I mean, you know, Don, he said, "Ray, you know, you need to come with me." And as Don King is not always known, he said, "You don't need no white people." No, he did say he did say that. I'm like, I don't I don't think about that. And um thank God I didn't go with them. But, you know, again, I I I feel so blessed, man. I really do.

44:18 And I again, I get somewhat overe emotional because I I think from where I've come from, from how long I've been away and what's I've dealt with and all the other things that came with this. I I'm a I'm a I'm a blessed man.

44:33 And you've been married? Yeah. I'm a blessed I'm a blessed man. And and Ray's Ray's got a beautiful wife. He's been he's been married to for 32 years now. Uh a beautiful marriage. And

44:45 he loses the He loses the fights, but he wins the game of life and marriage. So that

44:50 Yeah. Yeah. But who know who I mean? You guys not old enough to know the the go the singers. Uh the platters my wife. Yeah. PL. Yeah. Yeah. You're not old enough to know the platters.

45:07 Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Wait. Sugar Ray her husband's parent is is are you going to fight Sugar Ray soon? Like what's happening here?

45:21 What's that? He was in or Lance. Yeah. So he's going to be fighting the people in the front.

45:26 Yeah. Yeah. So do we have Michael? Do we have um do we have yet the Hearn's ending?

45:33 Let's hit it. Tommy Tommy still calls me. Yeah. Now it's 44. He's got to grab him. Gives him no rest. Is in real trouble.

46:01 Got a punch. Grab a hold of him, which he's not doing. No, he's too weak. He has nothing left. He's going to be knocked out.

46:28 Silver. Well, actually, actually, he cooperated. No, no, it's a bad joke. And is it true that Tommy Hearn still calls you? Wants to fight you still?

46:45 Yeah, he Tommy calls me every few months. Great. That's you and I go for I said, Tommy, have you looked in the mirror?

46:57 Oh, yeah. And he's not joking. Like that's like Oh, he's not Oh, he's not joking. So trust me. Yeah.

47:05 So then and and this will be uh our last piece of the the the boxing part as we begin to round the bend with Mr. Sugar Leonard. Um so then um there's this guy Marvin Haggler and he is in a um heavier weight class than Sugar Ray Leonard for those that don't know that. And everybody's like this guy's unbeatable. So whatever Roberto Duran was, everybody's like, "No, no, no, no." Including my dad. Yeah.

47:34 Is like, "No, no, no, no, no. Sugar Ray Leonard is going to get eaten alive by Marvin Haggler. This is going to be the greatest beatd down in history." So what what was that like leading up to this fight where everybody's and Sugar Leonard had not fought

47:50 five years? Five years. Like this big gap in his career is going on, right? There's like one thing little fight in between. crush somebody. But so everybody's like, "No, no, no, no, no, no way." So what what was that like for you leading up to it? And of course, we're going to show what happens.

48:06 Well, I mean I mean again, I've been out of the ring for five years. No, no fights. Um had a partial detached retina. Um I mean, my my family cried every day. I mean, when I would see them, so I stopped seeing them. But I trained for like a year and went out there and people believed they well they prayed. I also say they believed in me but no they prayed for me.

48:43 Yeah. Even people closest to him. So he he was in the boxing team at HBO with a guy named Larry Merchant. And even Larry Merchant was betting was predicting that Sugar Ray Leonard was going to beat um Mar that Marvin Haggle was going to beat Sugar Ray Leonard. The odds were three and a half to one against him and Larry Merchant I think as you wrote in the book came in the ring before the fight and said prove me wrong. And you know, it was just this impossible. I pay $39. I have all my friends from high school over. They're all so sick and tired of me talking about how much I love Sugar Ray Leonard to be annoying. They're rooting for Marvin Haggler in my house.

49:33 I bought the fight. They didn't give me any money. $39 is like all the money I had, like, you know, my draw in my room. And I got to give it to my parents. And now we're set. We got popcorn. We got pizza and I'm like f you mother e f e f e f e f e f e f e f e f e f e fer. Sugar Leonard's going to win. This is what's happening in 139 Viviian Avenue, Emerson, New Jersey, my parents house and we're getting ready to throw down and what is going to be they're thinking a beatdown of Sugar Ray Leonard. But I know differently, Ray.

50:01 But do are you trying to re have me reimburse you? Yes. Yes. Do you have can I have the $39, please? I I think you have it. Yes. Yeah. So

50:18 Darren, I want my 39 bucks. Yeah. Okay. So, are we ready? Are we ready, team? Here we go.

50:26 Pose himself on Ray and show who's boss. That was a sharp right hand by And if we don't have the decision at the end, let's get the decision, too. and Haggler a left hand

50:48 he had early on they vanished. Haggler has let him into this fight. Or to put it in a more positive way, Ray Leonard has put himself into this fight. And now he's starting even to taunt Haggler.

51:02 Smiling at him and just essentially saying, "Come on." And just getting angry. Don't question about it.

51:09 Right. When you slide under the guy, stop him. Don't grab him around the shoulder. Don't grab the shoulder.

51:18 Flores and then get out. Come on, work out. Find the winner by decision and that's that was that was

51:37 Let's stand up for that. Let's stand up for that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And and f you Chris Nichol, Tom Fodico, Chris Tomickey, Roy, all of y'all. Uh cuz that was Sugar Ring Leonard doing what people said was impossible but was not impossible. And yeah, let's hear it one more time for that.

52:08 Thanks, guys. And and anything else, R? Anything else? Anything else that you want these people to know before we say thank you? Anything else that you want them to know as we part?

52:19 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, God. I love you. God bless the champ. Bless here, champ. The champ. The champ. The champ. The champ. The champ. The champ. The champ. The champ.

52:36 Come on. Back down. LET'S HEAR IT FOR SURE.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Sugar Ray Leonard: Belief, Influence, and Winning the Mental Fight"?

Sean Callagy (Host), Sugar Ray Leonard (Guest).

What is "Sugar Ray Leonard: Belief, Influence, and Winning the Mental Fight" about?

The discussion centers on Sugar Ray Leonard's journey to success, emphasizing the importance of self-belief and hard work over innate talent. Leonard shares insights about the emotional and physical challenges he faced, including his relationships with family, and reflects on his accomplishments, such as winning an Olympic gold medal alongside his teammates.

What is mentioned in this Sean Callagy episode?

13 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Ray Charles Leonard, Elvis Duran, Tommy Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard's autobiography, Wilfredo Benitez. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Sugar Ray Leonard: Belief, Influence, and Winning the Mental Fight"?

The episode runs 53 min; the transcript is about 8,024 words in 154 timestamped sections.

More from Sean Callagy

• All analyzed episodes
• People mentioned on Sean Callagy
• Topics mentioned on Sean Callagy