Graydon Carter | SmartLess

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Air Mail, Canada, Graden Carter, Life magazine
2. 5:00 – 10:00: The New York Times Magazine, David Spade, Flat Earth Society, Frank Rich
3. 10:00 – 15:00: Approval Matrix, Canada, Lower East Side, New York Magazine
4. 15:00 – 20:00: Bruce Weber, Canada, Spy Magazine, Vanity Fair
5. 20:00 – 25:00: Amazon Prime, David Halberstam, General Tire, Oscar party
6. 25:00 – 30:00: The New York Times Magazine, Air Mail, Canada, France
7. 30:00 – 35:00: Air Mail, Vanity Fair, The New York Times Magazine, Financial crash of 2008
8. 35:00 – 40:00: Air Mail, Vanity Fair, Gore Vidal, Linda Wells
9. 40:00 – 45:00: Frasier, Friends, Instagram, Seinfeld
10. 45:00 – 50:00: Air Mail, Albert Einstein, France, International Herald Tribune
11. 50:00 – 55:00: Lower East Side, Mark Carney, Saturday Night Live, Vanity Fair
12. 55:00 – 56:35: SmartLess, Michael Grant, Vanity Fair

Notable quotes from "Graydon Carter | SmartLess"

• Smartless. Who? It's an all new Smartless.

  about SmartLess · at 0:15

• The guy who wrote and direct I think he wrote, but I did he definitely directed Napoleon Dynamite. This guy Jared has he's a great director.

  about Napoleon Dynamite · at 2:01

• Not left that in great shape and went on to become over 25 years the editor of Vanity Fair. He's got a new book coming out called When the Going Was Good Guys. It's Graden Carter.

  about Vanity Fair · at 4:28

• Had we've talked about it a few times on this show. He had a segment on Saturday Night Live I think was called the Hollywood Minute where you know you kind of watch through…

  about Saturday Night Live · at 8:32

• Flat iron downtown and what the diff what people would say to her at different street corners on the upper east side like really funny.

  about Prince Street · at 12:37

• A new because there was a new economy, there was a new establishment to that economy and then doing the Oscar party which was started off small and terrified that it'd be a failure and it just sort of grew each year.

  about Oscar party · at 22:02

• And the little pins they just say I didn't vote for them. And so when you're, in a market in France or at a pub in England, people, it just because it'll be, it'll be difficult. It was difficult during the years of George.

  about France · at 26:11

• Yeah. he's he's great. Very smart man. And I saw this clip either again on Tik Tok or Instagram or something. And he said, We can take over your house in two minutes.

  about Instagram · at 27:11

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Graden Carter — Person · 1 mention · first at 4:37
  Editor of Vanity Fair. He's got a new book coming out called When the Going Was Good Guys. It's Graden Carter.
• Frank Rich — Person · 1 mention · first at 6:50
  Frank Rich who became the theater critic of the New York Times. and then the producer of Succession.
• Jim Kelly — Person · 1 mention · first at 6:59
  And Moren Dow who was there. Rick Stangler became the editor of Time, my best friend Jim Kelly who became the editor of Time.
• David Spade — Person · 1 mention · first at 8:29
  I don't know what the term might be sort of a healthy cynicism and and and a you know like David Spade had we've talked about it a few times on this show. He had a segment on…
• John Oliver — Person · 1 mention · first at 9:34
  Look at John people like John Oliver and Seth Meyers and their u their news elements and they do it better almost than they do do it better than the evening news in a certain way. not everything is.
• Seph Meyers — Person · 1 mention · first at 9:34
  Look at John people like John Oliver and Seth Meyers and their u their news elements and they do it better almost than they do do it better than the evening news in a certain way. not everything is.
• Bruce Weber — Person · 1 mention · first at 19:10
  Know also I had photographers like Andy Leewitz and Helmet Newton and Bruce Weber. So, I was blessed by having these incredible colleagues and I was so appreciative of their of…
• David Halberstam — Person · 1 mention · first at 21:18
  There was I got other ideas that really changed the direction of the magazine from one from David Halberstam to create something called the new establishment which is the in…
• Linda Wells — Person · 1 mention · first at 35:08
  Yeah. Well, it would be we'd be remiss if we didn't mention our mutual friend, the great Linda Wells, whom I adore.
• Gore Vidal — Person · 1 mention · first at 38:26
  So but at at Spy magazine once we did a story on the 10 most latigious New Yorkers and Gore Vidal was on that list and we were listed in the phone book and he called me up and…
• Albert Einstein — Person · 1 mention · first at 49:02
  Oh influence and success and sophistication that you hold and it sort of offset I mean it's it's like Einstein you know like Einstein was like the greatest brain ever yet he…
• Pete Davidson — Person · 1 mention · first at 49:11
  Greatest brain ever yet he counterbalanced it with well Pete Davidson once said when Pete Davidson told a friend of my daughter he And your dad he looks like and with that hair he looks like he should be on money which otherw.
• Mark Carney — Person · 1 mention · first at 52:08
  Proud of being a Canadian and especially now, I'm sure you feel the same way. I like Mark Carney and I think that you just want to leave if you got to a beach and it's filled with candy wrappers, you my.
• Michael Grant — Person · 1 mention · first at 56:21
  L Smartless is 100% organic and artisally handcrafted by Bennett Barbco, Michael Grant, Terry, and Rob Armjarf.
• Annie Leibovitz — Person · 1 mention
• Carolina Herrera — Person · 1 mention
• Helmut Newton — Person · 1 mention
• Jared Hess — Person · 1 mention
• John Barron — Person · 1 mention
• Kurt Andersen — Person · 1 mention
• Lorne Michaels — Person · 1 mention
• Maureen Dowd — Person · 1 mention
• Michiko Kakutani — Person · 1 mention
• Rick Stengel — Person · 1 mention
• Walter Isaacson — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• When the Going Was Good — Book · 4 mentions · first at 4:35
  And went on to become over 25 years the editor of Vanity Fair. He's got a new book coming out called When the Going Was Good Guys. It's Graden Carter.
• Friends — Book · 2 mentions · first at 9:09
  Apparent to all of us, yet only discussed in quiet circles with your closest friends, yet everybody says it. You just don't say it in a big group. You say it in small groups. you're just calling out accuracies on people's.
• Napoleon Dynamite — Book · 1 mention · first at 2:05
• Succession — Book · 1 mention · first at 6:53
  Frank Rich who became the theater critic of the New York Times. and then the producer of Succession.
• Frasier — Book · 1 mention · first at 40:10
  More natural, organic time. And when my wife and I happen to love watching Frasier before we go to bed because they're like perfectly written plays and there's no nobody has a…
• Seinfeld — Book · 1 mention · first at 40:25
  Mean the same thing with Will and Grace or Friends or I'm trying to think what else Seinfeld say and there's it was just a great time and so the ' 80s 90s and as with the…
• Come On, You Are the Best — Book · 1 mention
• Will & Grace — Book · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

• Vanity Fair — Company · 11 mentions · first at 4:33
• The New York Times Magazine — Company · 9 mentions · first at 4:12
  Called the Canadian Review that was very popular. He then moved to the States and he worked for Time magazine. He worked for a bunch of other things, Life magazine, and then in 1986, he co-founded.
• Air Mail — Company · 9 mentions · first at 4:42
  Nice. Good morning, sir. I read the I read the air mail email this morning.
• Spy Magazine — Company · 6 mentions · first at 4:26
  He co-founded a very popular and influential magazine known as Spy Magazine. This is not left that in great shape and went on to become over 25 years the editor of Vanity Fair. He's got a new book coming out called When the Going.
• SmartLess — Company · 3 mentions · first at 0:11
• Saturday Night Live — Company · 2 mentions · first at 8:35
• Instagram — Company · 2 mentions · first at 27:16
• Life magazine — Company · 1 mention · first at 4:16
  And he worked for Time magazine. He worked for a bunch of other things, Life magazine, and then in 1986, he co-founded a very popular and influential magazine known as Spy Magazine. This is.
• Flat Earth Society — Company · 1 mention · first at 9:49
  Objective. You don't if you're talking about the earth being round, you don't need somebody from the flat earth society to come out and give the counterargument.
• New York Magazine — Company · 1 mention · first at 10:11
  Like I don't know if this is fair because I'm not a student of all this but I feel like Vulture on New York Magazine they sometimes will like they even have like a hot radar or…
• General Tire — Company · 1 mention · first at 21:27
  Establishment which is the in the past you know the establishments were the head of you know General Tire and General Motors and a bunch of New York banks but in the early mid to mid 1990s, America became an entertainment u culture.
• TikTok — Company · 1 mention · first at 24:28
  Yeah. Why don't we why we should be pumping them with TikTok and YouTube and paying for it and starlinking it into their country? And I believe me, they'll be Hey, listen. We got to go. We were going to.
• Hermès — Company · 1 mention · first at 34:38
  Fungus or, Geico insurance ads. I wanted, much better to have Hermes and Dior Florence. So, so it Yeah. So, I the all the advertisers once I got Hermes, all the other advertisers felt safe coming in, but the it's put out by.
• International Herald Tribune — Company · 1 mention · first at 45:03
  Edition of a non-existent international newspaper, like the old International Herald Tribune.
• Waverly Inn — Company · 1 mention · first at 49:57
  And the Waverly and the W and the Waverly in which Sorry, the Waverly Inn, which is I must admit I haven't been to in a long time, but I love the Waverly.
• Casa Magazines — Company · 1 mention
• Dior — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• Oscar party — Product · 2 mentions · first at 22:06
• Hollywood Minute — Product · 1 mention · first at 8:37
  This show. He had a segment on Saturday Night Live I think was called the Hollywood Minute where you know you kind of watch through your fingers you know sort of like you…
• Approval Matrix — Product · 1 mention · first at 11:56
  Lost in the shuffle a little bit. Jason, I think you were referring to the approval matrix, right? That they that they do. And there was something about Spy that did that which was which is it just held things up in to a.
• Amazon Prime — Product · 1 mention · first at 23:53
  DVDs of our TV shows and dumb them down as much as we're dumbed down. If we could pump in Netflix and Amazon Prime and Max to all these countries for free, they would…
• Audiobooks — Product · 1 mention
• iPad — Product · 1 mention
• Max — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

• Soft power — Concept · 1 mention · first at 24:20
  Well, it's an element of soft power and we've sort of given up all our soft power in the last 3 months.
• Financial crash of 2008 — Concept · 1 mention · first at 31:13
  I mean the financial crash of 2008 was a was an issue because the first thing that people could that could take off their balance off their their accounts were.

Places & events

• Canada — Place · 4 mentions · first at 4:01
  Winter is not Canadian. Okay. he you didn't know him when he was in Canada, but he'd started a magazine in 1973 called the Canadian Review that was very popular. He then moved to the States and he worked for Time magazine. He.
• Prince Street — Place · 3 mentions · first at 12:41
• Lower East Side — Place · 2 mentions · first at 12:57
  Guy's like why won't you talk to me [ __ ] Lower east side is get the [ __ ] out of my face. and that's the kind of thing that I do think that sort of thing is missing because everybody is so nervous.
• France — Place · 2 mentions · first at 26:15
• Upper West Side — Place · 1 mention · first at 12:35
  Of the city to see what reactions she'd get in different reaction. So they put her in the upper west side of free side flat iron downtown and what the diff what people would…
• San Francisco — Place · 1 mention · first at 14:32
  In the 1960s, the the pre-love movement was much further out in America than it was in, say, in San Francisco than it was in Toronto. And but then it swings right back. So, in…
• Toronto — Place · 1 mention · first at 14:34
  Pre-love movement was much further out in America than it was in, say, in San Francisco than it was in Toronto. And but then it swings right back. So, in the 1980s, the…
• Vancouver — Place · 1 mention · first at 14:45
  The 1980s, the investment banker ethos was much more pronounced in New York than it was in Vancouver, say.
• Hudson Street — Place · 1 mention · first at 26:06
  These little pins made up that we made up for our air mail shop in over in Hudson Street here and it's just it's a great shop by the way. I was there two weeks ago. It's fantastic.
• West Broadway — Place · 1 mention · first at 41:32
  There's one of the there's a one of those great there about four every corner from West Broadway to 6th Avenue. There are three or four bodeas on every corner. There's that one…
• Flatiron District — Place · 1 mention
• Sullivan Street — Place · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

0:06 Knockk Knockock. No, I guess you can't say. So, I'll do Okay, I'll play both. Um, knock. Who's there? Smartless. Smartless. Who? It's an all new Smartless.

0:18 Smartless. Smartless. smart. I realized that I think that I I curse too much. You do?

0:40 Oh, yeah. What are you [ __ ] talking about? There we go. Wait, really? Why do you say that? I don't think you do.

0:47 Because Don't you think I do? I feel like I do. It just occurred to me that I feel like I curse too much and maybe

0:53 I just I think not enough. Wh Why did you Did you get that feeling? Uh cuz you were hanging out with your dad and you had to you caught yourself a couple of times.

1:04 No, truly like where did this thought come from? Your kids are old enough. I just I think I was uh I think I was talking about hockey with somebody the other day and I realized that every other I think when I especially when I talk about hockey I'm like these [ __ ] guys and look at this [ __ ] team and blah blah blah. And and I was like, wait, how often have do I say and and I saw this um review of some gadget that somebody uh that they've just released that some AI gadget that documents the you know words that you say throughout the course of a day or a week or a month, etc. And uh and this woman was talking about how much she had heard she was cursing. And I was like, I wonder how much I curse.

1:41 Yeah, it it used to be my if I got nervous, I used to swear a lot. And like the very first time I met Steven Spielberg in his office.

1:49 All I did every other word was [ __ ] What? I was like, "Yeah." And his kids were playing video games. I like, "Oh, that's [ __ ] cool." How many When did you [ __ ] get that? That's [ __ ] amazing.

1:58 I couldn't stop saying I remember I once I I once had a I want the guy who uh wrote and direct I think he wrote, but I did he definitely directed uh Napoleon Dynamite. This guy Jared has he's a great director.

2:09 Great. Amazing. He's great. And and I I got a a meeting with him just after Napoleon Dynamite. I was so excited and just like I get lazy with cursing as just like sort of like a way to bond, you know, and and so I'm just like every word is this and that and blah blah blah. And I'm driving home and I call my agent. I say, "Oh, the meeting went really really well." And and uh and he goes he goes, "You know, I I I was going to say something. I was wondering if it did did uh cuz I know you your family lived in Salt Lake City for a few years and I was wondering if your family had any Mormonism in their in their background.

2:47 Did you guys talk about uh Mormonism? Because you know he's a big big Mormon. Oh, I didn't know that.

2:53 And I'm like, "Oh, no." Cuz then I started like then I was flashing back to the meeting cuz I'm driving home like

2:59 Yeah. He didn't say anything that was off color. And of course I never heard from this guy again. I was

3:07 to this day. To this day, have you spoken to him? To this day, no. I probably It's just deeply offensive to him. That's so funny.

3:14 We got to get him on here and ask him about that. I'm sure I'm sure he didn't even notice.

3:19 I don't know. That's funny. Um I tell you, uh I tell you what, this is Segue, Sean. This is Seg.

3:26 So smooth. This is Segway. and and my my guest my guest is, you know, we all like cool things and we like we like being feeling like that we're part of uh you know that that we're up on culture that we're up on what's going on in the world. This is a guy who's been not only at the forefront, but I think I would dare to say been shaping it for many years. He happens to be

3:48 Yan Winner. Oh, he happens to be from my own it's not Yan Winner is not Canadian. Uh, are you sure he I'm I'm very sure that Yon Winter is not Canadian. Okay. Uh, he uh, you didn't know him when he was in Canada, but uh, he'd started a magazine in 1973 called the Canadian Review that was very popular. He then moved to the States

4:12 and he he worked for Time magazine. He worked for uh a bunch of other things, Life magazine,

4:18 and then in 1986, he co-founded a very very popular and influential magazine known as Spy Magazine. This is not left that left that in great shape and went on to become over 25 years the editor of Vanity Fair. He's got a new book coming out called When the Going Was Good Guys. It's Graden Carter.

4:39 Nice. Good morning, sir. I I read the I read the air mail email this morning. Bless you.

4:46 Yes, it's Yeah, you didn't mention air air mail, Willie. I know. Well, I was about to get to air mail because you kept saying Graden Carter, so I was like trying to get through it and an awesome guest.

4:56 I know. Yeah. Nice going, Will. Uh, welcome, Graden. And I mentioned all the various things that you did that you started. Uh, you started as, uh, as a young writer and you founded. How old were you when you founded the Canadian Review? What was that?

5:10 193. I was 23. Wow. That takes a lot of I was going to say guts, but it takes a lot of huts to start a magazine when you're 23 years old.

5:19 Wow. How do you even go How do you even How do you get there? How do you know where to start?

5:23 I actually didn't start it. I I bumped into a bunch of guys who were starting it in college and they needed an art director and I said, "Well, I can draw." And they said, "Well, why don't you be the the the art director?" And then little magazines are just festering pits of bitterness and jealousy and envy. And so one by one they all that left and and then I became the editor and it u it wasn't as good as Will was pointing out and he was being very kind about it. Nobody knew what they were doing. Um and uh that was completely evident to readers and advertisers um that we were completely incompetent. But it did lead to a job at Time magazine when Time magazine was like the probably one of the most important magazines on the planet.

6:07 Yeah. And what what what did you do there at time? I was a writer, but you know it was this is 1978. The city was still teetering after bankruptcy and was like dangerous and and uh there were burnt out cars everywhere, but rents were really cheap. And I lived I I live in Greenwich Village and I my first apartment was um about a block and a half away from here and it was $200 a month and it had you know high ceilings and and a garden and but then when I got to time it was they're restocking with a bunch of young writers and there was people like Walter Isacson who became you know the great biographer. There was Micho Kakutani who became the chief book critic of the New York Times for 35 years.

6:50 Frank Rich who became the theater critic of the New York Times. and then the producer of Succession.

6:54 Wow. And uh Moren Dow who was was there. Um Rick Stangler became the editor of Time, my best friend Jim Kelly who became the editor of Time.

7:02 Uh anyway, it was just a it was a remarkable period and we were all still, you know, keep in touch with each other and um

7:10 Wow. It was Yeah, it was very intimidating for me because I thought, wait a minute, are all Americans this smart? And thankfully they're not.

7:20 Well, that's true. You're talking to three of them. There you go. Exactly. Well, two and a half

7:26 are the smartest. That's amazing. And and so you work at Time magazine with all this great talent and then you and Kurt Anderson uh uh form Spy Magazine, which boy, I remember Spy Magazine, and a lot of people do. It was so um it was it's been described as like as sort of like vicious and cruel but also like really deadon and you sort of somebody quoted something like you were you despised all the right people. Um

7:56 well, you know, there was it was the time all of a sudden in the mid1 1980s, New York had sort of come alive financially and you know, investment banks had been sort of invented and there meant there were investment bankers around and they already had a lot of money and they love showing it off and accidentally I think our timing was was wonderful and we used to call it aringent rather than mean

8:19 but you know that it did occupy a space of sort of I don't know what the term might be sort of a healthy cynicism and and and and and a and a you know like David Spade had we've talked about it a few times on this show. He had a a segment on Saturday Night Live I think was called the Hollywood Minute um uh where you know you kind of watch through through your fingers you know sort of like you didn't want to see it or hear it but it was always so accurate and and funny. I don't know what point I'm making, but I just I guess I want to say that there I don't know if it's unique or No, I don't. I I feel like there there is a space somewhere for people having the balls to call out that which is kind of apparent to all of us, yet only discussed in quiet circles with your closest friends,

9:11 yet everybody says it. You just don't say it in a big group. You say it in small groups. you're just calling out accuracies on people's

9:19 foables and um it is interesting and maybe healthy. I guess this is the question. What do you guys think? Is it healthy to have mainstream media have to have a place in mainstream media for that type of release?

9:32 I mean, look at John John people like John Oliver and Seth Meyers and their u their news elements and they do it better almost than they do they do do it better than the evening news in a certain way. You know, not everything is objective. You don't if you're talking about the earth being round, you don't need somebody from the flat earth society to come out and give the the the counterargument.

9:53 Yeah. Right. But Jason's I think maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, but maybe are you talking about insults?

9:59 Well, yeah, but but that that that cynicism that that exists in some corners of of mainstream media. I um like I don't know if this is fair uh because I'm not a student of all this but I I feel like Vulture on uh New York Magazine they they sometimes will like they even have like a hot radar or they've got a term for it and it they just call out basically what everyone's talking about in sort of I put in quotes the cool circles

10:26 and and and and I mention it only because it does seem to drive um some pop culture successes and create some pop culture failures when when it's discussed at sort of that again in quotes that high level and then it sorts sort of filters out into uh less cynical parts of our country and our media. It it drives like what films get seen. I mean it's it's sort of a the theory of like having critics, you know, it's like one person says something is good and then that starts to disseminate and then it it actually forms a wave of either success or failure for some things, right?

11:05 Um and I wonder if there if if that is a healthy thing that we that we should have in in media. I my my guess would be yes, but it's it's hurtful.

11:15 But at the same time, you know, like everybody on excuse me, on the internet, everybody's a critic. It's a it's a it's a it's a sewer by and large. But if you have people who have proper opinions or opinions and they're they're within the realms of accuracy, it can make a good difference, I think. And the internet, if word of mouth is the most powerful tool in the world, and the internet just lets it grow go exponentially rather than arithmetically. Well, the problem the problem is though is as you as with the internet and with social media is that often some of these voices all come at the same volume and volume that they don't deserve. And so and so things get lost in the shuffle a little bit. Jason, I think you were referring to the the the approval matrix, right? That that they that they do. And there was something about Spy that did that which was

12:03 which is it just held things up in to a light and and sort of brought them into focus a little bit. things that that uh were I remember there was a piece you guys did. You probably don't even remember this, but there was a piece you did. You may have already left, but it was certainly uh um really tonally right in line with the the kind of thing that you had set forth at Spy, which was they had a woman holding a pair of uh rollerblades over her shoulder and they had her go to different uh neighborhoods of the city to see what reactions she'd get in different reaction. So they put her in the upper west side of free side flat iron downtown and what the diff what people would say to her at different street corners on the upper east side like really funny.

12:45 Do you like to skate in the park? And then and then the upper west side the guy's like hey you look great. Why don't you put those down? Let's go get a drink. And then in flat iron and the guy's like why won't you talk to me [ __ ]

12:57 Lower lower east side is get the [ __ ] out of my face. I mean, and that's the kind of thing that that I do think that that sort of thing is missing because everybody is so nervous.

13:08 Yes, that's true. About offending the And also everybody is so quick to be offended and this is going to get I I hope this will be a pull quote about me railing against people being offended.

13:20 But there is that there was a notion back there, you know, of like I don't give a [ __ ] if you're offended. Who cares? Mhm.

13:27 You know, as long as I'm not hurting anybody or saying it's completely, you know, I'm offended. Okay.

13:33 Yeah. Yeah. There there's a healthy space for that, too, that I feel has has been lacking in the last few years as we needed to to make um and are still working on this sort of correction uh for those that are that are marginalized. Um but but I think the consensus is starting to come out that maybe there was an overcorrection and it's starting to come back to middle a little bit now. And so there there's a healthy level of hey listen offending you is part of the joke or part of this thing. And so there's there's some there's some casualties that that are a part of that metric.

14:07 What do you what do you think about that shift that's going on right now? Graden

14:11 will and I would know this uh better because we came from Canada. But the the the pendulum in America swings in great arcs like this

14:21 and in Britain it swings like this and in Canada it swings like this. So, America goes way out. I mean,

14:27 in the 1960s, you know, the the the the pre-love movement was much further out in America than it was in, say, in San Francisco than it was in Toronto. And but then it swings right back. So, in the 1980s, the the the investment banker ethos was much more uh pronounced in in New York than it was in Vancouver, say. So

14:49 America is the it it just has larger swings and so there the extremes are are greater and um and I think it is coming it will come we it's a correction from the far left and then it's gone went way too far to the far right and and it will settle somewhere in in the middle. You just hope that it does sooner rather than later.

15:09 I think it will. Yeah. And and of course, nobody's advocating for the marginalization of people who are are different at all. And that's never been, you know, I think that anybody, you know, certainly all of us. I I I I would I assume none of us would ever advocate for that. But I I must say as someone it makes sense for someone who who likes to comment on culture and whose writing and whose profession is informed by that. Of course, moving to the States is a natural progression for you, right? Because you've

15:38 and you Yes. And me as well, of course. Yeah. Because there is that there is that ceiling in in Canada where you can only go so far. Unfortunately, it's a great place to be from.

15:48 Uh it's a great place to live still. I would I'm not suggesting anything otherwise.

15:52 Keep going. Well, yeah, you got to put out the fire. You're offending somebody here. Yes,

15:57 I am definitely offending. How far have I dug down? Can I even see the top of the hole that I'm You know, uh uh you know there I've told that story before. the difference between the Canadian lobster fishmen and the American lobster fisherman, right?

16:10 What is it? They're walking on the road after their after their day of lobster fishing. And the and the uh the American lobster fisherman says to the Canadian, he says, "I noticed you don't have a top on your on your pot thereby. Aren't you worried about your lobsters getting out?" And the Canadian says, "No, these here are Canadian lobsters. If one of them tries to get out, the other ones will pull them back down."

16:30 That's great. That's great. And there's a there's a there's an element of truth to that. uh um but moving to the states and and and and starting Spy magazine and then moving to Vanity Fair which has an even greater audience and even sort of a broader demographic if you will. That must have been you must have been uh very excited at the prospect of kind of opening up an an huge demo to what you wanted to say and what you thought was important to talk about.

16:59 Yeah. And talk about having a piece of media that that anoints week to week or was it I think it was month to month.

17:07 Um who is it? You know, you and Lauren Michaels were basically had the the two levers that existed on on putting two Canadian Canadians here two, you know, putting people on top of the mountain um at your at your at your discretion, which was um pretty incredible. I didn't. It's funny looking back and I realize some of what you say is it was evident to others. It never was to me. It was it was a matter of of survival for the most part. I wanted to I had a lot of children and I wanted to I had to feed them and clothe them and educate them and so and I when I got to V I was the least popular person to get there because we had spent five years at Spy making fun of the editor of the house writing style of many of the contributors. So when I walked in, there was just it was the the whole mood of the place and I I didn't fire anybody for two years, but I eventually there was all most of the people were some of

18:08 the people were left over just to talk about my inadequacies as they went around to dinner parties in New York. And so I um but I let everybody stay for two years. I thought it'd give them a chance to come around my way of thinking. And then I got rid of these three troublemakers on in one week and my after being there for two years and all of a sudden it it shifted and I could bring my children into the office. It wasn't as poisonous and people started saying thank you and please and working together in a collegial way and um because I don't like office drama. I like people to to work together. I think you get something better out of it. And then so I sort of built it from there and it I was fortunate to have one of the great owners Sneu House who

18:48 gave me a the the tools to succeed. He gave me the the budget so I could I could bring in the I thought it must have been the greatest stable of writers ever. The first writer I brought in was Christopher Hitchens.

19:00 Wow. And um he's great. Oh, he was heaven. And and and then you know also I had I had photographers like Andy Leewitz and Helmet Newton and and Bruce Weber. So, I was I was blessed by having these incredible um um colleagues and I was so um appreciative of their of what they did cuz that what you know taking pictures and writing stories is a lot harder work than being an edited editor. You're just sort of a a wage ape and kind of um kind of like a cross between a chef and an air traffic controller um and a piece of mold just on your ceiling.

19:37 we don't really have a point but other than um uh trying to assemble the thing each month and anyway I was just it was a great perch during one of the greatest periods but by the same token it was a golden age of magazines but one of the reasons anytime you have a golden age it's a golden age because everybody is good so every other editor was was was was you know firing in all cylinders yeah all magazines were good in the 1980s and and 90s they were just it was extraordinary period and it and also the magazine has attracted the best and the brightest then.

20:08 Right. Right. And we will be right back and now back to the show. What was your ethos then when you got there at Vanity Affair when you when you sat behind your desk for the first time in those first couple years and going forward? What was your what was your object? Did you have an objective like this is what we the kind of stuff that we wanted that I want to do? Did you have something like that, a plan in mind in a way?

20:35 Nothing so formal, but but a sort of an evolving thought that I what I wanted to do is every month present the reader with something that is highly highly compelling that they'll read with and have wonderful stories that could range 15 or 20,000 words, which is the fifth the size of an average book, and that they would come back the next month. I used to write thank you notes to all my contributors every month. uh thank you notes to our advertisers who paid for the journalism. They the advertising would came in at about $100,000 a page and and that sort of you know paid for the heat and the light and

21:12 and the electricity and um but then there was I I got other ideas that really changed the direction of the magazine from one from David Halberstam to create something called the new establishment which is the in the in the past you know the the establishments were the head of you know General Tire and General Motors and and a bunch of New York banks but in In the early mid to mid 1990s, America became an entertainment uh um u culture and and um economy. And and so what we shipped around the world weren't cars and tires and things like that. It was intellectual property and in in terms of like video games and movies and television shows and magazines and and technology. And so uh we did a huge portfolio that Annie shot and and it sort of showed the world that there was a new because there was a new economy, there was a new establishment to that economy and then uh doing the Oscar party which was um started off small and

22:12 terrified that it'd be a failure and uh and it just sort of grew each year. It kind of rivals the Oscars itself in in terms of its prestige. uh as you as you're well aware lots of people go uh will often just go to the party and not the Oscars themselves and a lot of people who are who are you know big film stars people names that everybody all of us know and and of course the three of us have have gone many times and and and enjoyed that and it it has become its own thing which is quite miraculous really if you think about it it's kind of in some ways dethrown the Oscars on its at its own party in a way

22:45 u which you know you spoke some you mentioned something that's interesting the idea that America's true expert is its culture and its obsession with celebrity uh peaked, you know, it reached a peak, a fever pitch, if you will, in the 90s. Um, as my father calls it, celebrity um in a way that I think that he does that just to demean the term itself. And um and he he will say he will claim that that's the actual way that you should pronounce it. But um he also says tomato. Here's here's my point. It it occurs to me and and I've long thought this. If if we were really smart in about about wanting to to sort of pedal influence around the world uh in a way that America seems hellbent on doing, uh we would and this would never go down with the people who you know with the military-industrial complex which is uh you know a trillion dollars I think as of yesterday a trillion dollar a year business. Um what what we

23:40 could do and much more efficiently is if we wanted to influence a certain country and its people etc. All we need to do are at the time he used to say drop our DVDs of our TV shows and dumb them down as much as we're dumbed down. If we could pump in Netflix and Amazon Prime and Max to all these countries for free,

23:59 they would immediately lay down their weapons because they'd become just as as as dumb as we are

24:05 and and and just as or as smart or or sorry or as smart. Thank you for allowing me. But do you know what do you know what I mean? I mean that would be that would seem to me to be the the the answer to all of it, right?

24:20 Well, it's an element of soft power and we've sort of given up all our soft power in the last 3 months.

24:26 Yeah. Why don't we why we should be pumping them with with TikTok and YouTube uh and paying for it and starlinking it into their country? And I believe me, they'll be like, "Hey, listen. We got to go. We were going to go and and fight on the front line." And like, "Hang on a second. I just got to watch this thing about a cat teaching itself to read. You know, you know what I mean?

24:48 Yeah. I mean, we do do that in a certain way. I mean, America, if you look at the way most kids dress anywhere in the world, they're wearing, you know, American style trainers, blue jeans, t-shirts with something written on them and plaid.

25:02 Everybody looks like they're in a writing room. No matter what country you're in, you know,

25:06 they do. And you see and you see rallies, you see these people protesting and they have effiges of the president and whatever and they're wearing baseball caps backwards and they're wearing a guest jean sweatshirt and you're like wait a second and the irony is completely lost on everybody.

25:20 That's our gift to the world. Yeah. Well, and and sort of expanding on that, Graden, do you have an opinion about what sort of the the the the current prognosis is for America being able to bear and withstand uh what some people are saying kind of the the hit that the American brand is is taking across the world? Like, do you think after everything settles at whatever point that is that America will still hold um uh a respectable place in the world? I think it'll all depend on the next sort of three or four years. I think it's really tarnished and I you know I um we we're leaving for Europe on next weekend and for a spell and we have these little pins made up that we made up for our air mail shop in over in Hudson Street here

26:07 and it's just it's a great shop by the way. I was there two weeks ago. It's fantastic.

26:11 And the little pins they just say I didn't vote for them. And so when you're, you know, in a market in France or uh, you know, at a pub in England, people, it just

26:20 because it'll be, it'll be difficult. It was difficult during the years of George Bush, George W. Bush as well. And it may take a generation for the sort of the so-called American brand to to correct.

26:32 Great. Do you want me to send you over a couple of these Canada patches from your back?

26:35 Love. They are they are useful to have. They are really useful. All of a sudden, everybody who travels is a Canadian. You have Americans practicing their Canadian pto, you know,

26:46 ending because Canadians end every sentence with a question mark. You like an American will say, "I'm going to the store." A Canadian will say, "I'm going to the store."

26:56 As if like, "Can I get you something?" sort of thing, right? Wait, great. As far as journalism goes and kind of what to what Jason was saying about

27:05 uh Scott Galloway, you know Scott Galloway? Oh, yeah. Yeah. We got to have him on the show.

27:09 He's brilliant. I know. Yeah. Um he's he's great. Very very smart man. And um I saw this clip uh either again on Tik Tok or Instagram or something. And he said,

27:19 "We can take over your house in two minutes." Yeah. You wouldn't get off the couch. Sorry.

27:23 Exactly. You he said nobody wants to read anymore. That's period. And and he goes, "Everybody's everybody's getting their information from obviously Tik Tok or Instagram because nobody wants to sit down and read articles or magazines or books or anything." And so, and that said, people know that, people of influence know that, so they'll just speak to these kids or these people about what it is they should know, and that's how they get their information out.

27:49 Okay. Well, a counterargument to that would be that the fact is the New York Times has never been more successful. It's never been larger. If you look at a magazine like say The Atlantic, The Atlantic is exponentially larger and more influential than it was say 15 years ago. But that's a certain demographic. I think

28:07 it is a certain demographic. But at the same token, most people watch TV with the even with most people watch TV with the the Chiron, you know, the whatever the professional show people call that

28:18 subtitles. subtitles and uh so um uh young people I think it's harder and harder and I have a feeling that most of us if we were growing up in with Tik Tok and uh that we would have read less than uh and but it also you know most I have five kids and and I I know that some of them didn't read that much when they were in their teens but they're all huge readers now. They're all writers and so they're all huge readers. You just have to wait a bit and and it'll come around.

28:48 Sean and Jason, what are you guys waiting for? I always say to these guys, you know, I I I've got a a boring story I won't bore you with about why I'm not a great reader, but um but I will tell you that

29:01 does it have to do with you don't know how to read? Is that it's top to bottom, left to right? um that there's now you can every article online is now you can listen to it as you read. That's what I'm saying. Um if you and and it is something that's that's helped both of my girls um where you know they have these large reading assignments for school and now that all those books are are are audio books as well. And so one of the teachers suggested and I thought it was a great idea get them the audio book so they can listen to it as they read it. Um, and and that's that's helpful and you get some momentum going. You get engaged in the story and now maybe you don't need that crutch for chapters 5 through 10.

29:43 You can actually just read the book. And so, um, I I do there's that's that's that that's helpful. That's somewhat of a phenomenon where, like you say, the New York Times grad um I would imagine their online uh uh business is larger than their print business.

29:58 I think it's 9/10en of it, but still they're reading it online. But they're still they're still reading. I I will say that though and and I do bang this drum quite often but but there is a certain uh um reading at for me reading at the end of the day I find to be such an extreme luxury and uh it's very calming because we do live in a digital world I'm looking at my screen all day I'm looking at my computer at my thing whatever and to have that moment for 45 minutes uh every night to read I I do find that it is so calming in this in this sort of chaotic world in which we live if nothing else apart from the fact that you're it's interesting and you can be you know what all the other great things about reading but but in that way uh and I would especially as we get older I'm I'm speak I'm not speaking to you great I'm speaking to Sean and Jason

30:44 you need to calm down you need to calm down both of you yeah no I read I read a lot I still read a lot online and stuff but um

30:52 what do you uh what do you attribute Braden the the the not the demise but the the way that magazines have have not Um you know you say like the New York Times for example never been more profitable yet it is now intense online now. Why did the same not uh translate for the periodicals?

31:13 I mean the the the financial crash of 2008 was a was an issue because the first thing that people could um that could take off their balance off their their their their accounts were advertising because then you don't have to fire anybody. So the advertising started disappearing. The new and then even in New York City, there used to be a news stand at every major intersection, sometimes one across the street from each other.

31:38 There was a news stand in every office building. Now they when you see a news stand on the street, it's it's you often a like movie set thing because they're gone. And in office buildings they if there was where there was a news stand it's usually they selling you know gum and flipflops and lotto tickets. So just the fact that you used to be able to see magazines everywhere you went you know in Los Angeles those those things in Hollywood with the you know the long walls of magazines.

32:06 I love those. Anyway that that sort of they're gone. And I think a lot of magazines and companies were late to um transform transfer their the way a magazine looks to an electronic version. And the thing about air mail is airmail was put together by magazine people and we didn't have to work with a legacy brand and then transfer it to um the internet or digital and we we that we built we started it from that and so I think that made a a difference there and you know I read you know 20 magazines a month but I read them all on my iPad.

32:41 Right. Yeah. But before you go too far past uh air mail, uh you know, it I just love the what you the it's so and this probably not the right term, but there's nothing intimidating about the way it comes at you at its at its initial point in that it is an it's an email and there's just like here's here's it's basically like looking at the table of contents page. You talk about the subscription to a vanity fair or no airmail to Braden's new thing is is this thing called air mail. So you get this email and here's like five stories that you can click on that then if you decide to click then it expands into the story. So there's just like you don't have to buy a whole magazine or you don't have to go to a magazine's website or anything and like have to like deal with all the advertising and the the big pictures and all that. It's just here's some ideas, some stories. If it's interest to you, click on it. If

33:36 not, go to your go to the next email. Like, so they're not it's not in your face. The medicine goes down easy and they happen to be incredible stories. So, I don't know. I just think you tacked to to a to a a format that uh speaks to the current uh readers appetite as far as, you know, the attention they have to get.

33:56 And there's a tonal shift too, right JB? I mean, there's a tonal shift in it from Vanity Fair to Airmail. That's that's uh

34:03 Yeah. there's no selling element to it that that that I think people have grown sort of an allergy to and you're just you're you're very current on that. Uh which is not surprising coming from somebody like

34:13 Well, we wanted to look beautiful because I think design means is everything these days and look at the amount of work that goes into an an iPhone say. So we I you know I as I say I'd written thank you notes to all my advertisers at Vanity Fair and I so I wanted those advertisers in air mail. They didn't want, you know, advertising for like, I don't know, you know, foot fungus or, you know, Geico insurance ads. I wanted, you know, much better to have Hermes and Dior Florence. So, um,

34:42 so it Yeah. So, I I the all the advertisers uh once I got Hermes, uh, all the other advertisers felt safe coming in, but the it's put out by people from Time magazine when I worked there, uh, Spy Magazine and Vanity Fair. That's the that's the core group. And then there's about eight young people who are, you know, in their mid20s and they they form the the core in the future.

35:04 Yeah. Well, it would be we'd be remiss if we didn't mention our mutual friend, the great Linda Wells, uh whom I adore.

35:10 Oh, me too. Uh yeah, whom I absolutely adore and have known for many years and and uh and and she's a big part of Air Mail. Um I'm not telling you, I'm I'm telling our listener, our single listener. Um, but I will say that that, you know, when you were at Vanity Fair, you it was a there was a real balance between covering high society profiles, if you will, uh, celebrity and investigative journalism. Um, I remember there's a great article that I've referenced many times and had people read, which was about the Sultanized brother, uh, that you guys did. That story is an incredible story.

35:44 Still holds up. It's incredible. It's hilarious and it's right on point and and it's scathing and yet very fair. Um, so you do that at Vanity Fair and then now that you're at Air Mail, how would you define what's what is your relationship? Well, I was going to say what's your relationship with celebrity culture. Before I say that, what was be because you were at the forefront of defining celebrity and and covering celebrity culture back at Vanity Fair and you still are at Air Mail in a way. Did you when you were in that position, what kind of incoming calls did you get from people from publicists and and celebrities themselves who wanted you to

36:26 either uh amend something that you wrote about them and I know you already mentioned this about Mr. Tish, but but if some but what celebrities did you ever get a call from that that Donald Trump pseudonym uh John Baron? No, but I got we'd get calls from Trump and and you know once they invented Twitter, he he went to town on me. He would call me a sloppy. I was a loser. The Waverly end was a failing restaurant. The Oscar party wasn't hot. The magazine was terrible.

36:56 And uh but I would take any phone call, but uh most of the doing the covers was actually the least favorite part of the job. I but the fact is movie you know show people like you are more attractive than mag than the rest of us. So having us a very attractive person on the cover who happened to be talented was a great way of getting the attention of the reader so that they'd pick it up and they they wouldn't be embarrassed putting it on their coffee table. And but once you once you got that that was sort of like the wrapping and then the the magazine itself was sort of the gift in the box. But I in most of the calls we did get a lot of complaints but they were routed through the office of the person who of the people who booked the covers. So I got I would get occasional uh complaints. Most of the complaints often would come from staff members and u once when I remember Christopher Hitchens did a a pretty rough story on

37:50 Mother Teresa and uh he accused her of like cozing up to dictators and that sort of thing for money. It was it was it came out of the blue and it it was wild and Ronaldo Herrera who's the husband of Karolina Herrera who was on the staff

38:06 and he came he a staunch Catholic and he came into the office stormed into the office said grad you've gone too far this time I said what do you mean he said mother trace I'm cancing my subscription I said you can't cancel your subscription you get it for free and so so but at um but at at Spy magazine once we did a story on the on the 10 most latigious New Yorkers and Gore Vidal was on that list and we were listed in the phone book and he called me up and he said, "Uh, I really object to this." I had never met him before. I really object to this and if you don't take my name, if you don't correct that, I'll sue you.

38:48 And I said I said, "Wait a minute. If we don't take we don't correct that you're one of the most ligious New Yorkers, you're going to sue us." He said, "Yes." And I said, "Don't you get the irony and his thing that he just hung up?"

39:04 That's great. That's so good. We'll be right back. And back to the show. Um, your new book, uh, uh, Graden is, uh, When the Going Was Good, which is which is out now. And, uh, talk a little bit about that. First of all, it's what a great title.

39:27 You're clearly not talking about yourself because things continue to uh have a nice arc.

39:34 You're talking about a cultural shift. Yeah. Is that sort of talk a little bit about the book?

39:38 No, I think that the I think that the you know, if uh if you look back and and the um the the 80s, the '9s, and the as with the except I mean the 80s and 90s in particular,

39:49 it was a great time in America. It was very aspirational. The middle class was doing well. Um, we still had two World Trade Center towers. Uh, you could get on an airplane without stripping down.

40:00 Uh, there was no cell phones or social media. And it was a it was just a much more natural, organic time. And when my wife and I happen to love watching uh, Frasier um, before we go to bed because they're like perfectly written plays and there's no nobody has a cell phone. Um and um there's just something you know I mean the same thing with Will and Grace or Friends or um I'm trying to think what else Seinfeld say and and um there's it was just a great time and so the ' 80s 90s and as with the exception of you know obviously 9/11 and everything that came after that

40:36 were a great time for um for television a great time for movies and I think television has overtaken movies now to in terms of driving the culture. magazines do not drive the culture like they used to. It's obviously the u you know things like Instagram and uh and television in a big way.

40:53 So do you think we'll ever get back to what you're describing? No. No. Ever. Or a version of it.

40:59 A version of it perhaps. I think young people will come to love magazines the way they love vinyl,

41:06 but they'll be specialty magazine. And they won't be have millions circulation and they will be largely um visual like you know you go to like Cassa magazines on 8th Avenue over here.

41:17 Yeah. And you know a ton of these big expensive $20 perfect bound thick thick uh paper magazines

41:24 and they there's they they get scooped up by young people not by people over 30.

41:29 There's one of the there's a one of those great there about four every corner from from West Broadway to 6th Avenue. There are three or four bodeas on every corner. There's that one at the corner of Sullivan and Prince that still has a really robust magazine section. And you know that you know what I'm talking about.

41:44 I know exactly where you're talking. I've been listening I've been living half a block from it for the last uh um sort of 6 months and it's been phenomenal. And I've gone in there I found myself going in there from time to time and perusing magazines again. And I feel like I'm stepping back in time. It does feel.

42:00 I think it it'll come back. Okay. What do you what do you what do you think is the you know we talk often about uh and we reference it here today the effect of social media has had uh on our culture which to me on on uh in large part I think has been a quite a negative effect uh what do you think the future is for things like social media uh in going forward? Do you think there will be a a a a whiplash or a backlash rather? I was I was going to say I I think I'm hoping that because

42:35 you I mean No, but I want to say because No, it was funny because you brought up social media because I I think we've so overshared our lives in such a massive way and billions of people. Now we know everything about everybody always that I think if I'm guessing correctly, we will go the opposite way in 5 10 20 years, whatever it is, I don't know where people will be like, "Wait, I've we've all overshared. I'm going to get off it. I think it's cooler to hang out without it. Um, but I think there's a long way away, but I think that's what's going to happen when you 100%. I think, yeah, I totally agree with Sean that it is it again, it's a correction. And so the correction now you share everything, pictures of your children, picture your children's birthday of them having cake on their nose and all the rest of it.

43:18 Um, I have five kids. They none of them have a social media presence and no tattoos either.

43:24 So that's that's a major accomplishment. But it I don't have any social media presence and I think and uh and I'm I know this sounds strange for somebody who's just written a memoir but I'm a very private person and I think uh a private life will have greater currency in maybe 3 to 5 years than it does now and it'll be considered much cooler than having a social for young people than having a social media

43:48 greater currency and it gives you more cache much more cache there's a mystery right

43:53 well it's so great and kind of on this this sort of this this this cultural, you know, transition period we find ourselves in hopefully. Um, and you being the head of of a of a a major, you know, media uh effort. Um, what talk talk to us about your process with you and your team when you decide what stories it is you're going to go forward with there on air mailed. Is is there any uh agenda such a pjorative but do you do you consider the effect and the move that you guys can can make for people as you try to encourage them towards a a better healthier you know cultural position um or is it just stories of interest to to you guys personally? I mean, um, I put the the next issue together on a Sunday morning and, um, it's my favorite, um, uh, process of the week, but I, by and large, we look for stories that have not appeared in the American papers. It's it it's sort of intended as the weekend

44:59 edition of a of a non-existent international newspaper, like the old International Herald Tribune.

45:04 Oh, wow. And the fact is, there's so much to celebrate about life. It's not all about Donald Trump. uh that we have, you know, it's hard to avoid Donald Trump. I mean, it's it's certainly worth the effort to avoid him, but it's almost impossible.

45:16 And so, he's he winds up in there, but it was designed as a it was we started it during the first Trump administration and I was living in France and and it was designed as a sort of not not the same like every single newsletter you get in America is, you know, it's all basic Boston to Washington sell a corridor news and and we have very little of that. There's there's enough of that to go around. So, ours is very international. Stories have to be just interesting and things that uh uh reflect changes in the culture hopefully for the better, not always. and um and just sort of spirited um writing of the you know that could be funny but informative and um and you know lot some new fresh voices and and it's just something that you can wake up Saturday morning and read it

46:04 without completely hanging your head in despair over the news today I took I took the New York Times alerts off my phone

46:12 every 45 seconds is like the end of the world and it was I know Same same here and I I I've been doing my best to try to avoid it

46:18 totally same you uh you've been a for lack of a better word a tastemaker for for for decades. Uh it's just simply true. What cultural trends do are there any that you now that you miss most or or and what do you think what cultural trends do you think are wildly overrated now? Well, social media is I think Sean points out that it will have a swing back because the the not sharing everything uh will be a value in your both in your life and your personality and your interactions with others. I think kindness would make it be a wonderful addition back in the world because I think you know the

46:58 sort of want and cruelty you see coming out of um Washington is a it sort of reflects badly in us even though most of us are not like that and I don't think it's going to get better soon but I think it will get better

47:10 and um I think so too. He's he's a very strange man. I've known him for 40 years. He uh he's both loved me and hated me. And he reads young where, you know, he reads like a young 78 whereas Biden read like an old 81.

47:26 I know. You got to you got to you got to give give him that credit. It's it's it's hard not to. I know Graden at the at at the great risk of offending you.

47:36 Okay, I'll go ahead and Oh boy. Oh no. This is his favorite. Can you can you please walk me through uh the genesis of your incredible and impressive hair?

47:48 Oh my god. Well, take a good look at it because it's disappearing as we speak. No, no, it's No, no. What What it is is it's it's it's one of my favorite things about you. Always has been. I I to to the extent you're comfortable, can you please walk us through

48:04 how it how it started and what the process is to m is there is there a pick involved?

48:10 Yeah, because put a baton in your hand. You can conduct the New York. I just [ __ ] love it so much.

48:15 No, I had this hair and it's the same hair I have on the cover cover of my book when I was 30. And um it's sort of, you know, in the old days when I didn't have much money, you get it all cut off and you wait 3 months and it would grow back right?

48:29 And now I get it cut every month or so. And um it's just But it is it's gone gray and there if I'm out in Los Angeles and I go and there's a lot of people my age in the room, I'm the only man with gray hair, which I find really amazing. How does that possible?

48:43 It's cool. It has something to do with the water out here. The styling of it is just I just love it cuz it's just a perfect juiposition between this incredible place of

48:55 oh influence and success and um sophistication that you hold and it sort of offset I mean it's it's like Einstein you know like Einstein was like the greatest brain ever yet he counterbalanced it with well Pete Davidson once said when Pete Davidson told a friend of my my daughter he And your dad he looks like and with that hair he looks like he should be on money which otherw it sort of you know it there's there's a confidence to it which is uh which is intoxicating I must

49:32 that's code for what a fool who would do that no anybody who says how brave of you to wear that or something like that.

49:39 No the the opposite the opposite. Um, well, Grant, I I'll leave you with this and and again, we pointed out all the great things. Spy magazine, Vanity Fair, Air Mail, and now your book uh uh when the going was good. What after

49:54 after Don't forget the Waverly. And the Waverly and the W and the Waverly in which Sorry, the Waverly Inn, which is I must admit I haven't been to in a long time, but I love the Waverly.

50:03 You can And you can make a reservation through my email. Is that true? Yeah, I do all the seating. I'll do the seating every night. We'll take treat you well.

50:10 No. Fantastic. Oh my god. Oh my god. What a dream. I'm coming back. Don't put it on your website or anything like that.

50:16 No, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, believe me, I'm going to guard it with with my life.

50:19 I will I will tell you, and this is probably won't won't be much of a compliment cuz I'm probably one in a long line, but I just finished doing this uh this this show and and it's about a an incredibly beautiful hip um uh restaurant in the on the Lower East Side. Uh, and shots of inside of Waverly was was up on our production designers board and we basically modeled the the aesthetic in there is just so incredibly beautiful. So,

50:50 and built down in Atlanta. No, actually, we shot it in New York. We built built an entire restaurant at Steiner. Oh my god.

50:58 Um, you know what would be great to do? Let's do something like now that we have graded here, like let's do a thing where like we get thorough banned from the Waverly in forever. Like, you know what I mean? Don't let him know. teach us in thorough anymore.

51:08 Like you just you're always busy, you're full. So the con has shut us down. Yes.

51:14 But when we open it, we wouldn't take reservations from the 203 area code cuz that's Greenwich and that's where all the hedge fund guys were.

51:23 That's so true. So they'd make a reservation, we'd say, "Oh, sorry. Sh, you know, con listen great, you're speaking our language. I I have said many times nobody has is more responsible for the destruction of this planet than than uh uh you know sort of private equity guys and Honda guys and bankers they have they have absolutely except for Dandes who is one of the all-time great guys everybody

51:46 all time great guys double D but I I I want to ask you this what as a sort of parting shot if you will what what would you like your God this is a tough one to answer I'm sure what would you like your legacy to be if you've even thought in those terms as a Canadian and you probably never have.

52:02 No, I mean, first of all, I'm really proud of being a Canadian and especially now, I'm sure you feel the same way. I like Mark Carney and

52:10 um I think that um you know, you just want to leave if you got to a beach and it's filled with you know, candy wrappers, you my inclination would be and I'm sure you know for you guys as well that to sort of clean up the candy wrappers and try to leave something in better shape than when you got there. And in a large part we do that through our children and uh it's my kids. I'm very proud of them and they they're they're truly good humans and and um and funny and well read and and that's cuz that's your legacy because they're going to go on after you're you know you turn to dust and all the rest of it

52:46 and um and you know leave a a modest u you know um body of of sort of decent work behind you.

52:52 No, what a great answer. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, listen, great. And thank you so much for joining us.

52:59 Such an honor. I mean, the honor is ours. Yeah. We've been we've been such fans and and we've spoken about you before. The three of us have. Uh, and we've been

53:09 just a fan of everything you've done from from Spy to Oh, to Vanity Fair to Airmail. Uh, and now your book uh When the Going Was Good is out now for for all our listener. Uh, uh, so I I

53:20 All our listener all our listeners. tell him to get there quickly then or her or her or them or them.

53:27 I I encourage him or her or them or whoever it is to go out and and and get it today. Uh great. We wish you nothing but continued success and thank you so much.

53:36 Pleasure. Thank you so much, guys. Yeah. Nice to meet you, Grad. Yeah. Okay. Pleasure. Cheers. Bye. Bye, buddy.

53:43 Nice guest, Willie. That is now you know again every time we have somebody that is not one of these uh big fancy A-list uh celebs um whom we love

53:55 uh it is it I just love talking to uh other folks. It's it's well he he I mean think about it and it is true not only and Jay you said it I said it you said a version of it that he was a tastemaker if only because he was uh because he was on the front lines of reporting what was happening culturally whether it was a film or television or art or media etc. because of that position he ends up in a lot of ways steering culture because of what he decides to report on him and Lauren Michaels is still doing it like who's hosting Saturday Night Live and who's the musical guest will tell you who's the top of the zeitgeist

54:34 he and Lauren are still doing it and again I should be pointed out that these are Canadians and I think that there's something to that

54:41 uh that that Canadians well Canadians we we just inhabit a just a a slightly higher place in space.

54:49 You're breaking up a little bit. Are you going over? No, I've got full bars. I shut off this mic. You turn off his mic.

54:58 Well, you know what? There there is this and I've I've spoken about this before. As Canadians, we do we grew up we are so culturally close and and geographically close. So, we are kind of observers of American culture in that way and very close. And so, we do

55:12 Wait, what do you think that is now though? If it's not Vanity Fair, maybe it still is Vanity Fair. is the quote taste maker like what where do people look because it seems so fragmented now.

55:21 Yeah. Well well you know what it's much more there I think that it's been divided into these different pieces. Vanity Fair was much more of a catch all back at the time. Right.

55:30 That inhabited a big space. I don't know if there's anything that inhab I think a lot of podcasts do. Uh maybe Smartless maybe the Smartless podcast

55:40 you know. I haven't heard that but I did hear about it and I hear it's not great. The swing one of the It's not great. Very overrated. And these guys, they swear too much. They they interrupt people. But you know what? They do have really down pat.

55:54 Bye. Reference our own by as the by. You mean how they say goodbye. They go by much. Meta much. Smart. Yes. Smart L

56:17 Smartless is 100% organic and artisally handcrafted by Bennett Barbco, Michael Grant, Terry, and Rob Armjarf.

56:30 Smart less.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Graydon Carter | SmartLess"?

In order: 0:00 Air Mail, Canada, Graden Carter, Life magazine; 5:00 The New York Times Magazine, David Spade, Flat Earth Society, Frank Rich; 10:00 Approval Matrix, Canada, Lower East Side, New York Magazine; 15:00 Bruce Weber, Canada, Spy Magazine, Vanity Fair; 20:00 Amazon Prime, David Halberstam, General Tire, Oscar party; 25:00 The New York Times Magazine, Air Mail, Canada, France; 30:00 Air Mail, Vanity Fair, The New York Times Magazine, Financial crash of 2008; 35:00 Air Mail, Vanity Fair, Gore Vidal, Linda Wells; 40:00 Frasier, Friends, Instagram, Seinfeld; 45:00 Air Mail, Albert Einstein, France, International Herald Tribune; 50:00 Lower East Side, Mark Carney, Saturday Night Live, Vanity Fair; 55:00 SmartLess, Michael Grant, Vanity Fair.

What is mentioned in this SmartLess episode?

71 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Vanity Fair, The New York Times Magazine, Air Mail, Spy Magazine, Canada, When the Going Was Good. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Graydon Carter | SmartLess"?

The episode runs 57 min; the transcript is about 11,320 words in 191 timestamped sections.

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