Transcript

James Gunn | SmartLess

From SmartLess · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 2 min · 12,772 words · 255 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "James Gunn | SmartLess", an episode of SmartLess published August 18, 2025 (1 h 2 min, about 12,772 words). It mentions 89 people, works and ideas, including Superman, Instagram, New York, New York, DC Studios, Screenplay.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: New York, New York, Instagram, Live show, Alexander Payne
  2. – 20:00: Screenplay, Superman, Batman, Clayface
  3. – 30:00: Superman, Instagram, Batman, Grant Morrison
  4. – 40:00: John Cena, Superman, Chris Pratt, DC Studios
  5. – 50:00: Guardians of the Galaxy, Screenplay
  6. – 1:00:00: Superman, Brian Bates, Guardians of the Galaxy, HBO Max
  7. – 1:02:04: SmartLess, Supergirl, Superman

Notable quotes from "James Gunn | SmartLess"

  • No, no, no, no, no. Eli's done a fantastic job. No, I'm in New York. I went and saw my guy Kevin Won, who is the best.
    about New York, New York · at
  • I haven't really spoken. We haven't spoken since we did our live show with our buddy John, which was really fun.
    about Live show · at
  • Also if anybody cares granddad is now officially on Instagram enjoying.
    about Instagram · at
  • Film super then he went on to do all of the Guardians of the Galaxies movies and now he is the co-chairman CEO of DC Studios guys James Gun.
    about DC Studios · at
  • Studying writing at Colombia and I got a job at Trauma to write a screenplay for a movie called Tro and Juliet for 150 bucks.
    about Screenplay · at
  • I just generally, we've been just running off of screenplays. So, Superman got finished, people liked it, we made Superman.
    about Superman · at
  • Like I was getting the call. And so I went in there and I sat down and they told me about Guardians of the Galaxy and they showed me this pre, art they had done. And it looked…
    about Guardians of the Galaxy · at
  • Guys I'm doing it with the, with the Superman cast and with John Cena from Peacemaker and all that, but man, which I want to get into. Yeah. Yeah.
    about John Cena · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • John Cena — Person · 4 mentions · first at
  • Chris Pratt — Person · 3 mentions · first at
    How do you two know each other? We had dinner at Chris Pratt's house and then we watched an Alexander Payne movie.
  • Kevin Won — Person · 1 mention · first at
    No, no, no, no, no. Eli's done a fantastic job. No, I'm in New York. I went and saw my guy Kevin Won, who is the best.
  • Claudia Banks — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Scooby-Doo and then Dawn of the Dead and then Slither which he directed with Nathan Philly and Elizabeth Banks. he went then on went on to do future film super then he went on…
  • Alexander Payne — Person · 1 mention · first at
    How do you two know each other? We had dinner at Chris Pratt's house and then we watched an Alexander Payne movie.
  • Lloyd Kaufman — Person · 1 mention · first at
    I mean it was traumatic to work for them. You guys Lloyd Kaufman the head of trauma says that traum the word trauma means excellence in celluloid in Latin. So I don't know how much Well, that's what he says. I don't think.
  • Roger Corman — Person · 1 mention · first at
    But he's kind of is he kind of like almost like an east coast Roger Corman.
  • Matt Reeves — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Batman 2 has had, Matt Reeves, has moved the date a couple times of when it's coming in, but it's, we moved the date because Matt wasn't ready with the.
  • Kevin Feige — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Kevin Feige for Kevin Feige and Lou DiPazto. they're great guys. I really love them and they really care about the movies, but sometimes they get.
  • Grant Morrison — Person · 1 mention · first at
    That wouldn't be the story that I could tell, but I could just rip off the way that comic book was. Grant Morrison and Frank Quietly and Jamie Grant did that book. so I think…
  • Jamie Grant — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Tell, but I could just rip off the way that comic book was. Grant Morrison and Frank Quietly and Jamie Grant did that book. so I think that was part of it and then just kind of…
  • Rhett Miller — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Piano, but I still write music with at various times, like Rhett Miller and I wrote songs together for the Guardians of the Galaxy Christmas special, and I wrote a song with Tyler Bates for Guardians 2. I wrote stuff for Scooby-Doo.
  • Brian Bates — Person · 1 mention · first at
    For the Guardians of the Galaxy Christmas special, and I wrote a song with Tyler Bates for Guardians 2. I wrote stuff for Scooby-Doo.
  • Johnny Greenwood — Person · 1 mention · first at
    What if you said what if you Yeah. from time to time, if Johnny Greenwood can do it, you can do it.
  • Jennifer Holland — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Live on August 21st on HBO Max. And there is a podcast inspired by Smartless solely with me and Jennifer Holland who plays Hardcourt who also happens to be my wife and Steve Ag…
  • Ana Nogueira — Person · 1 mention
  • Danielle Brooks — Person · 1 mention
  • David Corenswet — Person · 1 mention
  • David Zaslav — Person · 1 mention
  • Eli — Person · 1 mention
  • Frank Quitely — Person · 1 mention
  • James Gunn — Person · 1 mention
  • Jason Bateman — Person · 1 mention
  • Lou D'Esposito — Person · 1 mention
  • Michael De Luca — Person · 1 mention
  • Nathan Fillion — Person · 1 mention
  • Pam Abdy — Person · 1 mention
  • Peter Safran — Person · 1 mention
  • Rachel Brosnahan — Person · 1 mention
  • Robert Corman — Person · 1 mention
  • Sean Hayes — Person · 1 mention
  • Shawn Gunn — Person · 1 mention
  • Steve Agee — Person · 1 mention
  • Will Arnett — Person · 1 mention
  • William Howard Taft — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

Companies & orgs

Products & tech

  • Superman — Product · 21 mentions · first at
  • Scooby-Doo — Product · 3 mentions · first at
    Many scripts. Started with in the big studios for films like Scooby-Doo and then Dawn of the Dead and then Slither which he directed with Nathan Philly and Elizabeth Banks. he…
  • Batman — Product · 3 mentions · first at
    Batman 2 has had, Matt Reeves, has moved the date a couple times of when it's coming in, but it's, we moved the date because Matt wasn't ready with the.
  • Guardians of the Galaxy — Product · 3 mentions · first at
  • Slither — Product · 2 mentions · first at
    The big studios for films like Scooby-Doo and then Dawn of the Dead and then Slither which he directed with Nathan Philly and Elizabeth Banks. he went then on went on to do…
  • Supergirl — Product · 2 mentions · first at
    Supergirl was written by this wonderful writer Ana Aguara and then that was really good and so we green lit that. Clayface came into us by Mag Flanigan. He wrote a.
  • HBO Max — Product · 2 mentions · first at
    Ago. So, Peacemaker or whatever, four years ago, Peacemaker originated on HBO Max a few years ago. It was the number one show on HBO Max ever. And then I committed to a second season.
  • SmartLess — Product · 2 mentions · first at
    This summer, right? That Peacemaker is live on August 21st on HBO Max. And there is a podcast inspired by Smartless solely with me and Jennifer Holland who plays Hardcourt who…
  • Dawn of the Dead — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Many scripts. Started with in the big studios for films like Scooby-Doo and then Dawn of the Dead and then Slither which he directed with Nathan Philly and Elizabeth Banks. he…
  • Friday the 13th — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Yeah. I think about 11 I started making movies and it was like I had seen Friday the 13th and I'm Oh, we can all do this. And I was tearing apart my brother Shawn who's an actor now. you know with fake blood and.
  • Clayface — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Wonderful writer Ana Aguara and then that was really good and so we green lit that. Clayface came into us by Mag Flanigan. He wrote a great script and so we green lit that.
  • Krypto — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Yeah, but he is what Krypto is 3D modeled based upon. So he Krypto is the name of the dog in the film. Krypto is the name of the dog.
  • Rocket Raccoon — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Characters Rocket from Rocket Raccoon from the those movies and Star-Lord and Peacemaker who are these blustery, angry individuals who, at their heart they're.
  • Star-Lord — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Characters Rocket from Rocket Raccoon from the those movies and Star-Lord and Peacemaker who are these blustery, angry individuals who, at their heart they're good, but it takes this work to get to.
  • Lego Batman — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Can I tell you I had a I had a small taste of that over the years when I I did the voice for Lego Batman in the Lego movies and the Lego Batman movie.
  • Creature Commandos — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Got the job as the head of DC Studios. I was halfway through create doing this animated show called Creature Commandos.
  • Super — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

Places & events

  • New York, New York — Place · 4 mentions · first at
  • Warren Street — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Warren Street down in you find that on Warren Street down there. Yeah.
  • St. Louis, Missouri — Place · 1 mention · first at
    He hails from St. Louis, Missouri. So, it's not our guest is from St. Louis, Missouri. Originally, went to Columbia University. got a start in showbiz, you.
  • Toronto — Place · 1 mention · first at
    The in the opening James because I think it's so interesting because as a guy who feels like I grew up in Toronto but I really grew up in New York. I moved when I was 20 and I…
  • Manhattan Beach — Place · 1 mention · first at
    They were in Manhattan Beach at the time. I was in Studio City. I'm Oh my god, I got to drive through this.
  • Studio City — Place · 1 mention · first at
    They were in Manhattan Beach at the time. I was in Studio City. I'm Oh my god, I got to drive through this.
  • Avalon Hollywood — Place · 1 mention
  • Los Angeles — Place · 1 mention

Sponsors

Full transcript with timestamps

Great to be here with you guys. Oh, it's so great to be here with you, too. I'm Jason. Hey, what's your name?

I'm Sean. And I'm Will. Hey, Will. Welcome. Jason. Hey, Will. And I just I'm just feeling really cozy today, you know?

Oh, yeah. You want to chat about stuff? Well, I just want to kind of coz up to our to our listener, you know, just

put on some nice soft socks. Snug up. Yeah. Get a nice wrap. A wrap. A throw. I mean Yeah. And just and just just and just give like a real like a real cozy like just real cozy.

Are you gonna light a fire? Real. Yeah. Just just real cozy. Welcome. And if you listen if you listen to the snap, crackle, pop of the fire. You can just barely hear. You can just barely

Oh, grease up your ear holes, everyone. Welcome. Welcome to Smart Less. Welcome to Smart.

That's so gross. Smart. Smart glass. Smart less. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. How's everybody doing? Look at Will's haircut.

Hey, Will, you finally figured it out. Christ, that was some tough sledding there for all of us for a week or so.

I I got a lot of like I got a lot of really shitty comments uh someone's got to be honest with you

about my hair. I know all the people commenting, but then like, well, who's responsible for what we had to deal with for a couple of weeks and then who's responsible for this pleasure cut here?

Yeah, same same criminal. Was it Eli? No, no, no, no, no. Eli's done a fantastic job. No, I'm in New York. I went and saw my my guy Kevin Won, who is the best.

Oh, I guess the next one's free. Yeah. Um, well, I mean, he's never received a mention. He's the best.

And what was his name again? It's Kevin W. And you want to spell that for the listener?

W O N. And you'd find him and Kevin's with a K. You'd find You ever met a Kevin with just a hard C?

That'd be pretty funny. How would you spell that to make sure no one goes seven?

So So seven. No, it's Kevin. Yeah. Or like a quven. I am. Wait, Will, where are you?

It looks like you're at your grandma's spot. I'm not I mean, do you want me to give a shout out to the hotel? It's new.

Yes, it's it's good. It's Whit the Whitby. No, it's uh it's Warren Street. Warren Street

down in you find that on Warren Street down there. Yeah. Yeah. And I got to say,

I like those hotels. It's pretty fantastic. It's Yeah, it's pretty pretty great. I didn't know what to cuz I'm used to going to the place that we always go to and then uh

you know Jay, the Firm Farmdale Firmale hotels, you know those little boutique hotels. Here, here comes Sean for he'd like a freebie all over the world, not just there.

Um, wait, why aren't you at the usual spot, Willie? Because they didn't have what I wanted because they were full.

I see you haven't had your chocolate strawberries over your right shoulder yet. Are you going to wait?

They're plums. Get your eyes off my plums, man. I I haven't really spoken. We haven't spoken since we did our live show with our buddy John, which was really fun.

That's super fun. It really was out there in LA there at the Avalon. That was a lot of fun.

We're still kind of thinking about maybe doing another one later in the year. We're not sure.

Well, we also keep talking about we know we got a lot of people saying like, "Oh, you guys, you know, you're now you're not doing we we keep talking about doing a tour and it is something that we are uh we have we almost did last year. Remember, we got really close. We had dates

and then it didn't work out. But we have a lot of fun doing it. So we we would like to try to if we can figure out a time that we can do it again. Um plus this other live show JB that you talked about that we may

do at the end of the year. So you know it is something that we are actively looking to do if anybody cares. Probably they don't but um

it's something that we do want to do. Also if anybody cares granddad is now officially on Instagram uh enjoying.

So but what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to put up pictures right? This is not like so that the the the the writing that was Twitter. I got rid of the Twitter,

but now this is just pictures, right? So, I take like a fun shot of, you know, me in traffic, right? I put up stuff like that.

Yeah. Hey, 405 today, right? Just put that up. People love it. Please, please do that. Please just make your Instagram traffic updates.

I would. Or shot of a candle burning. Uh, just relaxing. Huh? Do a lot of prayands. A lot. Talk about gratitude a lot.

What if I can get my dog on a skateboard? Do that. God. Yeah. your your views will go will skyrocket. All right, everybody's been warned.

I tell you what, I'm going to warn you guys I'm going to warn you guys about our guest because you guys are both going to be

No, you guys are I don't I'm not even looking. You guys are both going to be excited for different reasons for all the right reasons. This This is a big one.

Uh really Yeah. Uh JB, you're going to be excited on a bunch of different levels. Sean, you're going to be excited on a bunch of different levels which all meet. I'm excited on a ton of different levels. This is We got a lot of tal talented people on here, but I love when we have people on who do lots of different things, especially when they built it themselves and came from humble beginnings. Our

our our guest today, this is Elon Musk. I want to apologize for dropping Twitter.

He hails from St. Louis, Missouri. So, it's not our our guest is from St. Louis, Missouri. Originally, went to Columbia University. got a start in showbiz, you know, in paid showbiz, working for Trauma Entertainment out of New York, the home of lots of great what people would call be movies, but really like lowbudget horror films and stuff. Really cool stuff,

right? So, intentionally kind of close to trauma, but it's not. It's trauma. This is fun. It's fun with the words, Sean.

It's It's fun with the It's fun with the words. Yeah. Uh, you know, he uh he's written lots of films. He's written lots of books. Hang on a second. It's so good.

Terrible at this. His first thing he wrote was Tromeo and Juliet in 1997. He's having fun. What the [ __ ]

He's written so many uh he's written so many scripts. Started with in the big the big studios for films like Scooby-Doo and then uh Dawn of the Dead and then Slither which he directed with Nathan Philly and Elizabeth Banks. Um he went then on went on to do uh future film super then he went on to do all of the Guardians of the Galaxies movies and now he is the co-chairman CEO of DC Studios guys James Gun.

Holy [ __ ] How bing bing paper comes off. Hey guys. Nice going Will. What did I tell you?

What did I tell you? Hey Sean, how are you? Good to see you. I know Sean. I know you do.

I do. How do you two know each other? We had dinner at Chris Pratt's house and then we watched uh an Alexander Payne movie.

That's right. Which one? What was it? Uh shrinking. Uh no, the one in the winter. It was in The Winter in the College.

The last one. Holdovers. Holdover. I love Yeah, I love it. I love I love that film so much. I thought The Holdovers was so so fantastic.

Yeah, I loved it. And I know I've met Will a couple times, but I can't I I remember one time it was at a screening somewhere, but it was a long time ago was still married to

I was going to I was going to say the same thing. We have met a couple times, but it was like 20 years ago.

Exactly. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And neither of us remembers it. Did it leave an imprint with either of us?

I remember you standing there. Yeah, I do a lot of that. Um James, look at all the photo look at all the paintings behind you. Like you look like you're in a museum almost, you

know. Hey, uh now Sean, who is that? Who Who is Who is the heavy set fella there in the black and white?

I'm afraid this I'm going to give you two guesses. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. No, I can't. I can't. I want to say I'm going to embarrass myself.

I think I might embarrass myself, too. Go ahead. Uh is I I don't know. I don't know.

It's This is a heavy set black and white photo. Looks like an old president listener. And I'm going to go with I'm going to go with Tafted. Is it Tafted?

It is. It's Taft. It's a It's a painting, though. But if you notice, instead of a pocket watch, there's sausage links there. Those are sausage links.

I didn't even see that. That's a little It's a very elegant looking painting. Beautiful. And then just kind of, you know, just a smaller part of the painting. There's

Wait, who did that? Uh, I can't remember the artist's name. Yeah, that's great.

Not on there, so I bought it a long time ago. Okay, James, I'm very excited to meet you.

I'm excited to meet you, too. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of yours. I want to know everything about everything that you're doing and sorry will I I know go.

No, no, no. I do I do too and I'm with you and I really and I mentioned it in the in the opening uh James because I think it's so interesting because as a guy who feels like I grew up in Toronto but I I really grew up in New York. I moved when I was 20 and I remember all the times past going down 9th Avenue and seeing trauma ads for trauma up on the side of the building, right?

And I was always like what is the deal with these guys at Trauma Entertainment? And that's where you got your start. Can so please just tell us a little bit about that experience and what it is and what that was for you.

I was still in grad school and um studying what uh studying uh uh writing um at Colombia and I got a job at Trauma to write a screenplay for a movie called Tro and Juliet for 150 bucks.

Trauma. And I'm not saying that as an exaggeration. And I mean literally 150 bucks. Uh Trauma was most known for the toxic Avenger films. They were like made a lot of money and then they made a you know they started out with sort of uh you know TNA movies like Squeeze Play stuff that you know I watched on Cinemax as a kid made money in theaters and then they made a bunch of movies that made a bunch of movie on video cassette. So they actually made a lot of money in the the 70s and 80s and this was the '9s. So they weren't making as much. Um but they were never paying anyone for anything.

They did they made money for uh doing everything for I mean it was traumatic to work for them. You guys Lloyd Kaufman the head of trauma says that traum the word trauma means uh excellence in celluloid in Latin. So I don't know how much

Well, that's what he says. I don't think there's a Latin word for celluloid. But he's kind of is he kind of like almost like an east coast Roger Corman. Is that a fair comparison?

Yeah. like a a more raw rougher e I mean the difference is is that Corman just was 100% product but Lloyd is kind of an artist. It's just that his artistry is not kind of he's an artist but his artistry is very blood splattery and sexual and very trashy but there is a sort of feeling to trauma films that the AIP Robert Cororman's company's films didn't have.

Got it. But you but you were able to cut your teeth there. You were able you were given the the experience the opportunity to write a script to write a screenplay. You went you didn't even go into did is it true you you were applying for a job just to work there. They asked you to write it.

Uh sort of I mean I went in to meet with him and uh and then he asked by the end of that meeting I think he asked me to write the screenplay. Um I I I uh I was doing like these sort of monologues. it was these monologue things uh downtown New York and so he kind of knew who I was from that

right um yeah the thing is is that trauma and I just was able to learn about every single facet of film making so yeah I wrote the screenplay but I ended up my credits I think are executive producer but then also associate director

because I basically ended up you know directing portions of the film that's a sitcom title

it One of my first jobs was to choreograph a sex scene between two women. So that was sort of my my first Yeah. It was horrible.

It's a different job title now. I think I speak for Sean when I say gross. That's the quote from this episode.

Yeah. Um, so then you learned you learned a lot of stuff about about the nuts and the bolts of of making a film because you were on set a lot for the thing that you wrote. Well, I was on set every single day. I directed the actors. Nobody talked to the actors but me. So, it was it was like I just learned and I just I would come home every day from work with the girl I was living in at the time and I like I think I've found my home. It was like I was alive.

What felt so great about it? Was it just like the fun of making Fake Life? Yeah, I think it just I was good at it. I really was good at it. And I I I mean, it wasn't like I had no experience making films. I started making films when I was very young just out of fun. But I was just one of these artistic kids that did everything. I made films, I took photographs, I played in rock bands, I did comic strips. Um, but I understood film making pretty well.

And you you Yeah, you were making films like as young as eight with your brother. Is that true?

Yeah. I think about 11 I started making movies and it was like I had seen Friday the 13th and I'm like, "Oh, we can all do this." And uh and I was tearing apart my brother Shawn who's an actor now. um you know with fake blood and

but like but look at all of that and and and the years from then until now. I mean look at where you are and what you're doing. Like what is it? Tell me you're not jaded and it's not lost on you like how freaking awesome it is that you're doing exactly what you were passionate about when you were what 8 10 and do you think it was because of that passion that you're where you're at now? Um or was it just uh was it was it was there a moment of great luck, right place, right time? I'm sure a combination of of of

I think it is a combination of a number of things. It's a combination of of luck. It luck has definitely plays a hand in it. I think a part of it is

I agree that I still I somehow am able to shut out the world about what the world thinks and just act from a creative place.

Wow. So I don't have to do what I'm doing to like you know please like that can come in after right yet at the same time I have a right brain mentality so I'm sort of able to think how things fit into a pattern

the boxes you need to check for the commercial viability of it etc. I mean yeah the puzzle making part of it is is a a part of it for me. So I I think uh yeah I think I have the right mix of being passion creativity but also detachment

which you need now running the studio the the DC element um you've got to not only be the creative element but you also have to oversee other creatives you bring in underneath it and make sure that you're you're marshalling things in more of sort of a a corporate agenda at times as well. Yes.

Yeah. Although I have a partner Peter Saffron who takes care of everything that I don't want to have to take care of. So he goes to all the corporate meetings, dry cleaning.

You You built in You built in a bad guy. He takes up my dry cleaning. Yeah. You right. You built in a bad guy. So like So somebody comes and goes like, "Hey, we want to do this." You're like, "I'd love to, but Peter says we can't."

I I hate to say it. I'm I'm still the bad guy, but he's he Yeah. But he takes care of all the, you know, sort of practical stuff in the studio. He knows all about the money and all. I don't know what's going on with that. Right. Um I really am here mostly to try to

you know create creative you know stories that um that are good and you know one of our main commitments is to the writing of the story. So that means that the writers are you know lifted up in you know a place where they've been I think just sort of their their place is diminished

um in Hollywood especially in film making not in television and uh and to be able to you know make sure we never go into production on a script that I don't think is finished and great.

That's a great point that you bring up. I I I feel like there's so much the the writers especially in film have been sort of taken for granted in the sense like we're going to make this movie. we'll get somebody to just write it and then we're going to make this movie. It's like, no, no, no. You're skipping the the biggest step, which is you need the material needs to be there. Otherwise, what are you doing? And people just kind of skip over it.

Isn't that at odd sometimes, James? uh when uh especially in the in the in the in the big uh tent pole stuff that you guys do there at DC where you have to like put your flag down on the ground with a date and then sometimes that script is not yet written but it has to be written by a certain time in order to make the film all the effects and all that stuff and hit that release date. Isn't that sometimes at odds with you saying we're not doing anything till the script's right?

It is but I'll change the date. I don't, you know, I mean, if that has to happen,

I mean, I I just generally, you know, we've been just running off of uh, you know, screenplays. So, Superman got finished, people liked it, we made Superman.

Supergirl uh, was written by this wonderful uh, writer uh, Ana Aguara and then that was really good and so we green lit that. You know, Clayface came into us uh, by Mag Flanigan. He wrote a great script and so we green lit that. Um, Batman 2 has had, you know, Matt Reeves, you know, has moved the the the date a couple times of when it's coming in, but it's, you know, we moved the date because Matt wasn't ready with the script and we need to give him time to finish the script in the way he wants.

That's awesome, right? Yeah, that is great. I've been around I mean, I've been around so many big movies by this time and I just see that the problems are always that you have these screenplays that are, you know, they say, "Okay, well, we have the first act, that's really good. um let's set our production date for five six months from now and then they go into production and they don't have the last act and they're writing it during production and that's just not how screenplays work. Everything in the first act what they're doing is naturally related to what happens in the last act.

Sure. Right. Yeah. And you have you have so much experience in in that and as Jason said working in these big tent pole films because you've worked on the biggest films for for the two biggest players in this sort of the superhero IP uh world that there is there's DC and there's Marvel and you have kind of gone back and forth a little bit between the two.

Yeah. Right. Is is is there are there similarities in terms of the culture uh between the two?

Well, the the culture at DC Studios is new. It's me and Peter. So, we haven't even been here for 3 years, so that's new.

Um, and, uh, the culture at Marvel, there were so many things I loved about being at Marvel. I mean, first of all, Kevin and, uh, Lou, the the guys who are in charge are just really just great guys.

Kevin Feige for Kevin Feige and Lou DiPazto. Um, they're great guys. I really love them and they they really care about the movies, you know, but sometimes they get over, you know, I mean, like they they're trying to get things all back on path. They got overwhelmed with, you know, Disney coming out with streaming and then saying we needed a million things this year and it just became too much to quality control.

So, when you have Well, that goes into what we were talking about. Sorry, Sean. Just the idea that like, hey, we've got this huge streaming service. we need to feed this machine, give us product, and instead of going like, hey, let us finish the product and then Right. Right. They kind of back. I mean, it's nobody's fault. They're trying to run a business and so whatever. But but it creates it creates that quality control issue that you that you alluded to.

Yeah. How do you when we were talking about it at dinner when we had dinner about Superman, you were just into casting or something like that

and and um Sean, by the way, or or something like that. Yeah. Or Sean, what part did you read for? I read four Superman.

He tested. He It was down to him and Corin Sweat. Yeah. I came in I came in a a motion capture suit and I just didn't think that was right.

When When were you ever When have you ever been in motion? What What are they capturing?

Like you going to the fridge, they're going to capture that motion. You I don't want people I don't want people to miss Jeopardy.

So interesting when I move my body. It's forever interesting. And now a word from our sponsor. All right, back to the show. Um, no, but James, did so when I when I heard about even before we had dinner, when I heard about um they meaning you and DC were doing Superman again, how do you This is like clunky obvious question, but how do you approach a new take on it that we haven't seen and how and what is going to be different? And what do you Because when I first read it, I was like, wait, they're doing it again. you know, and then I see the trailer, I'm like, "Oh my god, I have to see that movie. It looks it looks amazing." But, you know,

well, I I didn't I mean, again, it was a thing of they came to me with Superman, you know, many years ago, and I I I I was like, I don't know. I I I just had a hard time imagining what it was going to be. and Peter Saffron who's been my partner. He was started out as my manager in 1998 and has you know since become my producing partner. Um

uh you know it's his dream it was his dream to make a Superman movie always. And so he was always bringing it up always just bullying with me bullying me about it. And um eventually you know I just kind of kept playing it in my head. It was like a math problem I'm trying to solve like how could Superman work? And then I I find I finally started to see it and it was the culmination of a couple of things. Um number one that uh I read I reread an old comic book I really like a lot called Allstar Superman. And it had a a sort of silver age yet grounded classically uh sort of science old school science fiction, but again really grounded characters and and deep moral issues um around the character of Superman. And I saw how that wouldn't be the story that I could tell, but I could just rip off

the way that comic book was. Grant Morrison and Frank Quietly and Jamie Grant did that that book. Um, so I think that was part of it and then just kind of just playing around with ideas and coming into it. And then I got this stupid dog Ozu who was destroying all my stuff and I thought, "Oh my god, what if this dog had superpowers? My life would be destroyed my my house."

Wait a second. Your real your real dog is the name of the dog that's in the film?

No, my dog's name is Ozu. Yeah, but he is what Krypto is 3D modeled based upon. So he

Krypto is the name of the dog in the film. Krypto is the name of the dog. Yeah, he's a he's Superman Superdog from the comics and he's never been in the movies. And so, uh,

that's so great that he's in there. Do you do you you know, you you talked about and Sean, you mentioned like what you know, Superman, everybody's familiar with that character and there is something about and and maybe you can sort of shed some light on this. Um, people keep returning to these characters, uh, specifically these superhero characters, comic book characters that they like and people and and for some reason they continue to resonate. And I know with this new Superman, I I read that you were trying to uh, you know, do something that that sort of painted a a nicer sort of kinder vision of the world, right? Where where there was more good happening in and especially where we're living in complicated times. I'll just say that.

Yeah. Yeah. Is is that important for you to get that kind of message through in all of these films?

Uh that's not always where I'm at with something, but with this film, I was I said to the cast when we sat down for our uh you know, meal before we started that this is a movie about goodness.

Yeah. And it isn't about a world that's kind. The world in Superman is as unkind as our world in many ways, but Superman is kind. And that's his real superpower. And that's, you know, the fact that he doesn't bulk from that, that there isn't an ironic flip on the fact that he's kind, that he's just straight up kind. It's not a joke. We're not making fun of him. And that's, you know, he is a rebel and his his, you know, his his rebelliousness, you know, manifests itself in just kindness and goodness and love.

I love I love that message. I think that that's really I remember saying to one of my sons um a few years ago uh I said he was talking and he said it's quite personal but he said you know I dad I feel like I'm really sensitive and I said that is your superpower in this world and and the world will try to take that away from you and don't let them take that away lean into that is the true true superpower that you have

man that's great dad stuff to say that's really great well it's true I think I think it's really true and I think that that gets lost lost on us. I think that there was, you know, that traditionally it was much more about, you know, if somebody comes out, you hit them back harder and don't take no [ __ ] from nobody and punch them in the nose and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, you know, look where that gets us,

you know? Exactly. And I think so I love the idea that you that you at the center of it, you have a superhero who uh not to spend too much time on Superman, I know, but but but just that that that was important to you.

Oh, yeah. Abs. It was very important. And I think it's really, you know, I think that was why I struggled with the character cuz I've normally written these characters are that are sort of the opposite of that in some ways. Characters um like, you know, you know, Rocket from Rocket Raccoon from the those movies and Star-Lord and Peacemaker who are these blustery, angry individuals who, you know, at their heart they're good, but it takes this work to get to who they are. And that's that's what the stories are about. And I think that's what my life was about up until that point because I was like that. But I think that this comes to me at a c different point in my life where I am more okay with just being kind,

you know. I It's so funny. Isn't that funny? Is Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. Talk about Instagram.

No, I I was on Instagram. You saw something fun. We're having a real conversation. Talk about the thing you saw on Instagram.

No, cuz it is so left field. So, keep going with yours. Keep going because I'd love to double back just on what the button is in the bottom right hand corner, but when we get there,

I was gonna say I was Yeah, you go in my in my in my Instagram. I want you two to fight so bad.

In my Instagram feed, of course, is my algorithm, but a video came up the other day about you and the movie about whether you should put tights on Superman or not.

Oh, no, no, it's the shorts. It's the shorts. Yeah, the shorts or whatever it is. The shorts. I thought it was hilarious that there was this whole conversation about should he have trunks, should he not have trunks, what is it?

Oh, you don't even understand. Walk us through it. We got time. Somebody I am sure that somebody would kill somebody else over the fight over whether Superman should have trunks or not.

That's I I wasn't aware of this conversation until I came on to the movie and I started trying to divi design the Superman suit. And the truth is Superman always had trunks in the comics. Do they make sense? I mean, sort of. They existed because when Jerry Seagull and Joe Schustster first created the character, he was like a wrestling guy or a circus strongman. So, he has these trunks on over his costume. And uh but then Zack Snider came in and that was like the dark more, you know, mean cool version of Superman and he didn't have trunk. He took away the trunks. And so when Zach took away the trunks, there were tons of fans that were outraged.

Sure, there are people that spend all the, you know, we think our world is divided in terms of Republicans and Democrats and that everybody's fighting about that stuff.

That's because you you don't there are whole factions of people that know don't even know barely know who Donald Trump is and all they care about is whether Superman has trunks or not. Can Can I tell you I I had a I had a small taste of that over the years when I when I uh I did the voice for Lego Batman in the Lego movies and and the Lego Batman movie.

He's a really great character. Inside joke is terrible. Um I tried to do Lego Batman in the back of the theater as the dude. Um, but but I remember I I got dragged in over the last sort of 10 whatever it's been since I first did it 10 years in all these and I get speaking of Instagram tagged in these arguments about who's the best Batman and I'm telling you it's twice a week huge and and thousands of opinions and things about things and specific things. I'm like it's all

it means something. Yeah, it means something to people. It means something. It's everything.

Yeah, it is. It's crazy. It's a it's it's like a religion to some people and I don't I mean

that that it may not be the healthiest thing for a person. So I mean but it's a it's an issue and so yeah people keep arguing about the trunks and then I I came out and our Superman has trunks because and I really couldn't decide but David Corin sweat was like you know what this is a guy who can fly around. David Corin sweat plays Superman. He can fly around. He shoots beams out of his eyes. He can do all these scary things. cuz he's an alien from outer space, but he really wants kids to like him. So, he's going to wear this, you know, sort of garish, colorful costume.

Kids love short shorts. Kids love. They aren't that short. They're trunks. They're

trunks. Doesn't Isn't it Isn't it born from kind of a practical purpose to kind of uh keep things somewhat discreet on our superhero? Because he's wearing some clingy outfits. Uh there, one clingy outfit, and he needs he needs another layer. Am I wrong? I mean, otherwise we're going to see his religion.

Well, I I think that you could design the pants so that they don't outline the ball sack. I don't know. It's difficult.

JB, you're you're worried that that kids are going to see the super package. Is that what you're talking about?

The guy's got a real pronounced helmet. You've got an issue. Wow. Guys, these are things you got to consider when production with the costume fitting. Okay.

I think it's a smart move. You just attracted an entire new audience. By by the way, we're talking about these people in the abstract. these people who have an opinions. Sean says, "I see it." The reason it came up in his algorithm's married to one is because Sean and Shawn is on the verge. Sean and his husband Scotty are like super nerds and these are the kind of conversations that they have over dinner. Like I could see that you guys going like, "Do you hear that? The trunks really do like in between sloppy. The trunks." He's not going to do the trunks.

We do sometimes. We do about Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and stuff like that. We do have conversations like that. Um, all right. So, wait. The

found each other. Can I just say that? I'm just so By the way, I know. God, who could who could handle any of this? So, um,

we're going to have dinner tonight. By the way, Sean and Is that on? Yeah, it's on. But, but can I just make this one just no cosplay? Can we just say that tonight because I don't want one of you shoring dinner. Okay.

It's going to be boring. So, wait. So, James, you had this like, you know, Scooby-Doo, then the sequel and Slither and all these things and then do you feel like Guardians was How did that come about? Do you feel like that was the thing that kind of launched you to the next level?

Oh, I mean, without a doubt, it was like I I had actually told my agents that I didn't want to focus on film anymore. Actually, this relates to some of the stuff we were talking about in the beginning. I said, you know, it's like no movies are taken seriously. They aren't a part of the cultural conversation unless it's like a Hulk movie or a Marvel movie or something. I'm making these lowerbudget films like they just aren't resonating. You know, I had just signed a deal to do another TV pilot which I'd always done and I was like, you know, it seems like the really creative space for writers these days and even directors is in television.

That's where you can kind of do what you want. Television has taken the place of the art film in a lot of ways.

Yeah, for sure. So, I said I am going to just focus on television. I had also just done a video game which I had a lot of fun doing. I'm going to focus on creating TV and and video games. And um and it was then that Marvel called and said, "We want you to come in and meet about this thing." And I was like, "Oh, I have to drive down." They were in Manhattan Beach at the time. I was in Studio City. I'm like, "Oh my god, I got to drive through this."

Such a great LA response. You should, by the way, and next time you got a big drive, next time you got a big drive, go to Jason's Instagram and he'll give you an update. Yeah. He's got the Instagram page with the cool the cool traffic sites.

This this is before the Zoom revolution of co, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This was before Zoom. Exactly.

Yeah. And so I'm like, uh, you know, I'm like, I don't even want to go. I had met with them before about stuff, so it wasn't like I was getting the call. And so I went in there and I sat down and they told me about Guardians of the Galaxy and they showed me this pre, you know, art they had done. And it looked to me like Bugs Bunny in the middle of the Avengers. And I'm like, I don't know about this stupid. So, it's like um I was like, I don't I don't know. And uh I I was driving home in the traffic.

Yeah. So, maybe I should be grateful. Now it's worse. Yeah. Now it's late afternoon. It's traffic. You got to go over the four. Go over the

Yeah. I had to think and listen to music because there was no Instagram where I couldn't Instagram myself doing it yet. And um I uh and I was going, you know what, you know, okay, so you're thinking that this raccoon is a drawback, but what if this raccoon was real? Like how would this raccoon come to be?

You need to like get [ __ ] Bradley Cooper or something like that, you know, to make it happen.

So I imagine like what if this raccoon was real? And I'm like, "Oh my god, this raccoon would be the saddest creature in the universe. He's created in a petri dish basically. He doesn't, you know, has nothing like him in the universe. He's completely alone." And so it was that was sort of the soul of the movie. And then I started thinking how much I love Star Wars when I was a little kid

and what Star Wars meant to me. And I I thought that I could create that um not by, you know, mimicking Star Wars, but making Star Wars for what would work with kids today. So, bringing some of the color back, what would, you know, when I walked into the the supermarket and saw C3PO and Chewbacca on the cover of People magazine, I was like, "Oh my god, who are those guys? That's so cool." I knew that I could do that.

Yeah, for sure. And you did it. And you you like what a mission accomplished. Times 10. And by the way, Jason, you mentioned the music. I mean, I I read that you James, of course, like a lot of directors, you you chose all the music, but not only you choose the music for your movies, the soundtracks became like huge hits as albums, like like platinum selling albums. JB platinum albums up in my house. It's so weird.

Yeah, but Yeah, exactly. like introducing a a a sort of a new level of um uh uh intrigue and draw to to to what was typically Marvel's sort of like well we're going to throw a bunch of effects at it and it's going to be really exciting CG but you're putting in this subversive element too that exists with the music and with lighting and editorial pace and all that stuff like you really kind of you cooled it up and you hipped it up and it became a whole different lay and with the music it was really like I'm creating this space opera with all these characters that people don't know and it's totally wacky and weird.

So, how do you ground this in the, you know, coolest way possible? And I'm like, well, 70s AM pop would work perfectly over somebody dancing through, you know, the an alien graveyard.

Can I can I just tell you just apppropo of nothing how how excited I was because uh I love Chris Pratt and and I have for a long time. I know this guy.

He's a Bravo. Bravo. He's amazing. I love him. The character is a guy. He's an Italian guy. He's in the back of the theater, James. And I'm sorry. It's funny to the three of us. Um

so, so and I remember when when Pratt first did Parks and Wreck, I remember the first season and I was like and he was a he was a recurring character and I was like, "This dude is so [ __ ] funny."

Yeah. Uh I just I just loved them from from moment one. So then when all of a sudden he was doing this, I remember when he got the film and your the first Guardians movie and I just thought like,

"Yes, the world's not going to know what to do with Chris Pratt cuz this dude is so funny, so talented. He he can't even He's one of those guys. He can't help being funny."

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Oh yeah. He's he's I I I I text him all the time because, you know, I'm doing, you know, all sorts of uh you know, press junket stuff and things like that. And I love doing press junkets with the guys I'm doing it with with the, you know, with the Superman cast and with John Cena from Peacemaker and all that, but man,

which I want to get into. Yeah. Yeah. Chris and I used to have such a great time on those things.

Would you guys pair yourselves together all the time? Yeah. But it was like it would just became these giggle fest where it was really it's so Yeah. I I had the luxury of doing uh press chuckets for a couple years on the on the Lego stuff with Chris and it was so some of the most fun I've ever had in showbiz was actually doing press tours because we laughed our ass.

He'll drop the dirtiest joke like the dirtiest bomb and you're like wait what makes me laugh so hard.

So so good. So you mentioned the peacec the peacemaker. So, so you're you're directing all these movies and then you're going back for now and now you're co-chairman and CEO of DC Studios and then you're directing the new Superman movie which is as we all know directing of it just take the years and the hours and the time and the life and blah blah blah and in there you you created this show the Peacemaker with John Cena which you you wrote a bunch of episodes you you

I wrote I created Peacemaker two years ago. So, Peacemaker or whatever, four years ago, Peacemaker originated on uh HBO Max a few years ago. It was the number one show on HBO Max ever. And

um then I committed to a second season. Um and so it's my favorite cast and I love these guys and uh and so I was supposed to do a second season. Then I got the job as the head of DC Studios. I was halfway through create doing this animated show called Creature Commandos. Um, and so like in a space of I had to I had to get into Superman first. So my second call after, you know, get right before I I I got the job was announced was uh to John Cena saying, "I'm going to do Peacemaker, but I just have to hold a beat because I got to get Superman right."

Mhm. And so yeah, in a year I wrote 650 pages of material and then the next year I produced and directed 650 pages of material. And

this year we're releasing 650 pages of material. Tell us what your day is like. What time do you what time do you get up typically in the morning? Truthfully,

10:00. No, that's not true. But I get up pretty I don't get up that early. It just

So you stay up late. I stay up late, but my my times fluctuate wildly. So like when I'm writing, I try to have as little schedule as possible because it's just the writing's in my brain all the time. So during that 650 pages, when I'm just writing out of pure panic in a lot of ways,

but then when I get to the page, it's working, you know, and then I step outside of the page and I'm terrified. Step back into the page and it's working. Step outside of the page and I'm terrified. Um, and so I just had to keep writing and writing and writing and that was going on constantly, you know, and I that was the actually the busiest time was the writing of it because, you know, when you're shooting it's much more structured and then I have to go into post-production and all that stuff.

Yeah, we'll be right back. And now back to the show. You obviously love the creative process so much because you're so you're so deeply in involved in it and doing so much of it. What was it like when you got that call to have one of the most prestigious elite jobs you could ever imagine? You know, partly running one the one of the biggest studios in the history of the So like that's an executive job and for the listener like it's it's wildly different to to be the people that push the button that make it all happen versus the people that are on the set that actually make it. Um and and so you're doing both. How did that how how did that land for you?

It was cool. I was happy. It wasn't as pure of a joy as say when I got the first Guardians movie because that was me doing something I knew how to do,

right? This was kind of creating a new job that hasn't existed because there hasn't ever been a creative in the position of studio head,

which is insane. Which is insane if you think about it, right? that that sentence that you just uttered is is quite crazy, don't you think?

It's crazy meaning that it hasn't happened yet because you would think to you would want a creative person to be the oversight person of the creative process.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I I I guess. Yeah. But also you do need to manage a lot of stuff. So there's part of it and that's what I would never do the job without Peter Saffron.

Yeah. Yeah. But but but but I mean to the extent that like I and JB going off what you were just said which is I remember I remember years ago being and this is on a much much smaller scale but being in a meeting in a casting meeting for a TV show with a bunch of executives from a TV studio that does from back then. This is 25 years ago. And and I was in I was I'd already been cast in the thing. And I go in and we read a bunch of people for this other part. And one of the people who runs a studio who one of the people executives after the person leaves like, "Yeah, yeah, I think he's good. I think he and and they're having he's having this conversation.

He's driving the conversation about the creative of this casting of this actor." And this guy literally was a [ __ ] bean counter. quite literally had been an accountant

and he's the one making the decision on the thing. That's lunacy. Yeah. That's why most things aren't good.

Yeah. There used to be a something called the creative committee at at Marvel and it was, you know, comic book people and toy people and all these people that would chime in with their notes on scripts. And I think that's fine that you know they they give notes because you know one of the things that you hear all these people being afraid of notes all the time but you don't usually you don't have to use them. You just have to listen to them and people are usually happy if you just listen. If you listen and then you say I don't know because of this they're usually okay.

Um but they were a little bit acted as if they were uh you know the authority on everything. And so Kevin and I would you we'd be working on Guardians of the Galaxy and we'd have that, you know, final screenplay and then all of a sudden we'd get these lists of things that needed to be changed and it always felt to me like I was watching that show The Nick at the time when they used to do, you know, operations and they'd have the audience members there and it felt like a couple of brain surgeons performing brain surgery and having a bunch of podiatrists around telling you how to do it. Right.

Um, and it was just like, you know, I mean, they told me to take the songs out. You know, when they saw the first cut and Bradley was doing Rocket's voice as a character, they're like, why do we pay all this money without, you know, he doesn't sound like Bradley Cooper? I'm like, yeah, he's playing a character. He's an actor. That's what the guy does. That's why we hired him.

Um, and it was just list of, you know, things that they just had nothing to do with storytelling, nothing to do with what would capture people's imaginations, right? um and just whatever their peculiarities were.

So you thought with this with this opportunity maybe would come uh uh not a sea change in what the executive ranks would look like, but at least you would be able to influence this this studio in a direction that made a little bit more sense.

I thought it gave me an opportunity. First of all, I thought it was cool because DC was breaking off from Warner Brothers and becoming its own studio, which was awesome. Um that had never been done. you know, Marvel's still under Disney. And then secondly, I thought it was an opportunity to try something that had never been done before, which was to create a cohesive uh universe, but also a cohesive brand that uh was about quality. And I only am going to be on this earth for so long, so why does, you know, might as well put everything into it. It's an opportunity that just has never existed for anyone ever. So, how could I say no to that? my wife wishes I had. But, you know, how could I say no to that?

But did you But but that presupposes that you're able to have a certain amount of uh authority and and and and influence. What kind of to the extent you're comfortable sharing? Were you given asurances that made you think, well, that there's a possibility I could actually do this?

Oh, I knew that we could. Yeah. Yeah. Because the only person we answer to is David Zazov. And David Zazlov has he tells us if he likes something or he doesn't like something, but he doesn't have any sort of say or interest in saying it's not that he doesn't have any say. If he wanted to, I guess he could, but he doesn't have any interest in saying the story a and story. He's the opposite of the guy Will was talking about.

Yes. He's very differential to the to the creatives. We love David. Zaz gets it. Yeah. Yeah.

So he's not, you know, he doesn't think that he knows how to do that, you know. I had one of the most terrifying calls ever was, you know, I had done the screen test with David Corinsw and Rachel Brazahan and

you know and it they were so freaking good together and I loved them and and and Peter loved them and Shantel our executive producer loved them and I sent the tape off to David and I said here's our two choices. Yeah.

Here's what we want to do. And David called me up and he goes and he sounds really der and he goes,

"You know, I have to preface this by saying this isn't what I do. This isn't what I I know, you know, I'm not a a movie business guy. I'm, you know, movie creator. I'm not a storyteller like you are. I This is just coming from a place of me as a person." And then he stopped and he goes, "I [ __ ] love it." And it was that was

so good. Like you are an [ __ ] What a cool dude. What a cool dude. I um so then James now just to kind of switch gears a little bit. Uh so you're doing all this stuff and and of course we're all kind of all of our our our ships are are pointed into the the headwind of AI and what kind of effect it's going to have on the future of film and stuff. And uh we kind of been asking everybody a little bit. you guys must be at the sort of the tip of the spear when it comes to film making in in the you know where it intersects with AI and how we can use it and what what we need to look out for and what you think the future might might hold for films.

Uh, I hated when we were going through all the the guild dispute stuff and AI was the big part of it because we're just not quite there at that point yet with writing and acting. And so like there were all these important issues that we needed to talk about and it's like AI the splashy thing is making all the headlines. All my friends online are getting upset about AI stuff and I'm like guys really look at what's happening. This isn't a a real thing in this moment. You know, I have a, you know, a stunt stunty friend who's like, uh, they're gonna use my body and they have the rights to my body. I'm like, they don't want your body. They want the body of the guy that the actor that you play,

right? But I do I think it's in in in the in the moment it's a problem for uh the low-level jobs which is where I I feel the most compassion um by say with VFX um all the people that do all the rotoscoping and all these sort of more tedious jobs that is going to be replaced by AI in the next couple of years almost certainly and I don't think there's anything we can do about that. I don't think there's any way that a studio is gonna say, "Yeah, let's spend an extra $40 million on this movie."

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I I think I think just setting aside the actual uh uh uh replacement of jobs and people, etc. The actual end product is different in this in our case, it's it's and each one is is is unique. each each uh um sort of uh you know entertainment is is going to be what you actually consume which is what you want to consume original entertainment that has the potential to be created by AI JB I think that's the diff that's my sort of question

yeah but I mean it's so it is a little bit of ways right now so it's you got to do a lot of stuff I mean it's it's you know the things that you're watching are 8-second clips of things and even then if you put you know get into a cab you're suddenly getting into the front seat of the cab, you know, right?

So, it's you gota it's there there there is artistry and work behind AI. I've played with it a lot. It's fun to play with and um

but so I don't really know. I'm not the [ __ ] a for fortune teller, but I do I am very aware of what the present problems are and

I thought you were a [ __ ] fortune teller, Carac. Um the other but the other pro for me kind of the bigger problem especially in the VFX industry is that all the people that do the jobs that are going to remain you know the you know a lot of the animators are actually like almost like technical actors because they're creating the actions of these characters the way they move

and the pe the training ground for those jobs is gone now. So how do you learn how to be those people? How does the next generation of people come about? And I think that's pretty much going to be true in every industry. So the the double problem is where do all these people go

that have these other jobs in a world that's already doesn't have enough jobs? And then how do the people train to get to the next level? Doesn't that mean that we're instantly going to have more illtrained people at the top next level?

Yeah. I I do think though that there's probably there's probably going to be a big audience that doesn't care uh about I'm sorry talking about writers. There's going to be great writers and that there's going to be a huge part of the audience that doesn't care about the beginning, middle, and end so much. Just as long as there is one, it doesn't matter how good it is. As long as there's car chases and explosions, they'll show up. Even if the whole thing is totally AI,

I wish Scotty would walk by in the background right now. I I I think maybe that's true. I mean, I don't know though. I mean, it depends on how developed it gets, you know, because remember, AI is eating its own tail.

That's right. It does. It's not feeding on It can't create something new. It's really just creating amalgamations of

But I'm saying But I'm saying Yes. But I'm saying there's an audience for that. They don't care

where it will be in the next few years. I don't think that's true. I think that what you get out of that is you get you get a Hallmark movie.

Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying. There's an audience for Hallmark movies. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's an audience for Hallmark movies, but you can't make, you know, a billion dollars at the box office with a Hallmark movie. And you can't really afford to make movies no matter what.

Um, hopefully hopefully there's a benefit from the from the the that that um that entrylevel part of the process uh that that may become automated. Hopefully that will potentially save enough money for the industry that it'll then be reinvested into the industry and help the financial health of the industry uh get get back get stood up again because right now there's there's a there's a there's a bit of a a constraint going on on in our industry, right? There's there's there's a lack of work, there's a lack of product. Studios are making less films because it's becoming more and more expensive to sell them and make them. Um hopefully this will allow that financial help to come back to the industry and then put all these people back to work again maybe in some other job but maybe there'll be more product being made. I mean maybe that's polyiana but hopefully it will uh

I don't think I mean I think that the your basic point is absolutely true. I mean that you can make bigger feeling movies cheaper. I mean a movie like Superman is you know nearly half of its budget is in VFX.

Yeah. Right. That's that's a lot. Um it's it's a big budget film. It's not as big as you know you know Guardians 3 or you know these other things. But but a lot of that's the actors you know.

I think I think JB I think you're right. It's either either that is true or the opposite and we're doomed and it's all it's look look at the automotive industry. I I I I don't know the numbers but I feel like it's a healthy industry. the music industry with all of that that big digital change that happened that that I think that's a healthy

I think the music industry got kind of screwed. They're fine. They got screwed because Yeah. the music industry had no awareness that this this streaming change was coming and they just they got screwed out of everything. So the writers songwriters got screwed out of everything you know you know. So, like one of the things I do in my spare time is I've I've written songs and right,

you know, we I have songs that have like 40 spare time, how do you 40 million hits of, you know, 40 million plays on Spotify. I I don't I've never noticed a dollar coming in from that. And I I probably have made a few thousand dollars, but that's a few thousand dollars. That's that's a huge song. And so it's like, you know, pe uh you know, people make today from money from today from touring, which is great that the the you know, the live music industry is thriving, but in terms of musicians making money like how they used to from album sales and songs, you know, it's it's not there.

Well, well, I I was going to say that and the touring is and here for me that uh is an indicator that what people still crave is the human connection. And I think that that is going to be thing that pushes back against things like that. That's going to be the biggest commodity,

right? And I talked to, by the way, I had all these uh teenagers, my sons had their friends over all weekend and I was asking all these guys. I was like, "What do you guys think you're going to do when you grow up?" And we're having these long and one of them said, "Oh, I want to get into sports and I want to get into analytics and numbers and stuff." I go, "That's gone. I I would pick something new because all that will be crunched by AI." I'm serious. It's like you talk about a talk about a vocation that's not going to exist.

But I do think I do think the one thing is is going to be the the desire for real human connection. That is that is that that is going to be a commodity that is going to become even more exclusive and people will pay a premium to have a real experience, a one-on-one, a live whatever that is experience. And that's the good.

So you'll show up, you'll you'll dance for someone, right? If you get sent do like only fans but an inperson only fans private dance. Yeah.

Private dance from Dancing for Money. Any old music will do in Superman's Trunks. You'll do it.

We've bad times. I do think that a film or a television show or something that's a novel. They're all artistic expressions and they're all a form of communication. They're all a form of one, you know, either person or group of people communicating to other people. And I think that if people feel that communication aspect is not there, that's going to be a drawback for a lot of people because there is that feeling when you're seeing a movie or seeing watching a TV show.

But do you do you think that there'll be a a lane of films not too dissimilar from uh animation, right? It's a huge section of our of our entertainment industry. you know, Disney animation and Pixar and and and the like. Those don't have

What kind of films, JB? Like, are there new ones coming out in the next year? I hear. Yeah. But like, but you know, those are those aren't actors. Those are those are drawn figures. And so there there's it will be a lane perhaps of AI films that live next to animated films that live next to live action films that maybe they'll be a different price point. Maybe. I don't know. But

maybe. But I think it's also what are you talking about as AI films? Are you meaning 100% generated by AI from start to finish?

I don't know. But like whatever animation is I mean you have real actors that are that are giving voice the voice actors behind it. So there'll be a combination. I bet

it's going to affect animation almost certainly you know I mean you know it it definitely will.

Yeah. So you're in a band you still play? No I'm not in a band now. I I don't play. I just you know

Oh I thought you were. I mean I was in a bands. That's how I like Oh I didn't know if you still played. Yeah.

No I still play. I still play some piano, but I still write music with um at various times, you know, like uh Rhett Miller and I wrote songs together for the Guardians of the Galaxy Christmas special, and I wrote a song with Tyler Bates for Guardians 2. I wrote stuff for Scooby-Doo.

What about scoring a film for me? I could never do I'm not that punk rock kid. What if you said what if you Yeah. I mean, from time to time,

if Johnny Greenwood can do it, you can do it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, I couldn't. I couldn't do it.

All right. All right. Uh listen, James Gun, we could talk to you. Honestly, we say this sometimes, but we could just keep going, but we've taken up way way too much. We're already over.

Oh my goodness. Uh it's so fascinating. We're so excited. Uh the Peacemaker uh comes out this summer, right? That Peacemaker is uh live on August 21st on HBO Max. And there is a podcast inspired by Smartless solely um with me and Jennifer Holland who plays Hardcourt who also happens to be my wife and Steve Steve Ag who plays Economos and uh and then many guest stars from Daniel Brooks to John Cena and so forth. And that takes place uh twice a week up until the release that we go over every single episode of Peacemaker.

Oh, that's fun. That's cool. All right. So, that's available now. That the podcast is available now. What's the podcast called?

Uh I believe it's called Peacemaker, the official podcast with James Gun. It's a wonderful

And how did you guys come up with that? I don't know. That was a a creative committee of sorts came up with it

by Please tell please tell Shannon I say hello. It was so nice meeting her when I saw her.

Oh, I will. Absolutely, Sean. Yeah, she loved you and Scott and Scott. Same to Scott, by the way.

I will. I will. Yeah. Uh well, fantastic. Well, continued success. We're so happy that we have a creative like you at the at the helm of at least one of the studios and and uh uh you're just doing an awesome job and we're all I I'm such a fan. I'm going to say I know we all are and it's just been such a joy to have you.

Me, too. Pleasure to meet you. Say hi to Peter too. I will. Thanks, guys. Nice meeting you, James. Have a great day. Take care, guys. You too. Thank you, James. Bye, buddy. Bye. Very nice.

How cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I mean, we had uh Mike Duca and Pam Abdi on uh a while ago over there at Warner Brothers as well. That's pretty cool.

That's I love I love talking about the like the different opinions of people in our business where they think it's going to go because of AI. Everybody has a different kind of take or angle.

These guys have their their hand on the lever, too. Like they'll tell you exactly where it's going. My favorite quote from today's episode is Jason G. I don't know for sure, but I feel like the auto industry is doing well.

Well, isn't it just pure speculation? I And I said that about music, too. And he's like, "Yeah, no." I was like, "Okay, sorry. I What do I know?

The music industry feel like it's doing okay. I see a bunch of cars on the road. James,

I'm hearing music. Stop noticing cars. I was in a car today. You don't want to come to us for what's going on. No, no, no. He was great though. I love uh I love his stuff. I didn't know Supergirl was a thing. I didn't know that. He's got that coming out after Superman. I'll watch both of those. Don't you think it should be Superwoman though? Anyway, um

Oh, yeah. just [ __ ] get online and start start flirting with people. Yeah, but it should be. But Willie, so I'm going to see you tonight for dinner for sure.

Yeah. All right. So, I'm going to see you there for a quick by tonight. That's not where I was going, but sure. That's good. By 7:00.

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Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "James Gunn | SmartLess"?

In order: 0:00 New York, New York, Instagram, Live show, Alexander Payne; 10:00 Screenplay, Superman, Batman, Clayface; 20:00 Superman, Instagram, Batman, Grant Morrison; 30:00 John Cena, Superman, Chris Pratt, DC Studios; 40:00 Guardians of the Galaxy, Screenplay; 50:00 Superman, Brian Bates, Guardians of the Galaxy, HBO Max; 1:00:00 SmartLess, Supergirl, Superman.

What is mentioned in this SmartLess episode?

89 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Superman, Instagram, New York, New York, DC Studios, Screenplay, John Cena. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "James Gunn | SmartLess"?

The episode runs 1 h 2 min; the transcript is about 12,772 words in 255 timestamped sections.

More from SmartLess

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated November 18, 2025.