John Lithgow | SmartLess

Who speaks in this episode?

• Antipater (Antipot), son of Jason (Host)
• James & Lucinda Bruce (Guest)

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: William Shakespeare, Broadway, John Lithgow, George Will
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Positive Sean, Harvard, Harvard, All in the Family
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, Jeffrey Rush, The Rule of Jenny Penn, Jeffrey Rush
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Broadway, New York, New York, Dumbledore, Dumbledore
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Harry Potter, Harry Potter, Harry Potter, Dumbledore
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: New York, New York, Dumbledore, Dumbledore, Bennett Barbo

Notable quotes from "John Lithgow | SmartLess"

• Smart. Did you go late last night, Willie? How's it going? listener, we're into we're in the second day of what the business calls principal photography on Will's Will's…

  about George Will · at 0:53

• Buckle up, you guys. This is Every once in a while, we class it up over here.

  about John Lithgow · at 4:14

• Sean, Sean, Sean, I'm gonna John, first of all, welcome to Smart List. What an honor to have you on the show today.

  about Positive Sean · at 5:19

• Jason, John, you have to you have to John, you have to understand something about Jason. He has very interesting ways of compartmentalizing things and putting things in certain it's it's.

  about Antipater (Antipot), son of Jason · at 11:42

• Churchill. He was quite an anomaly and I think that came in handy. That's so interesting. What about was it as challenging as playing the Reverend and Foot Loose?

  about Footloose · at 25:09

• Of a film I did with Jeffrey Rush last year called The Rule of Jenny Penn, which I urge you to look up. It's about to be released in, it's a very narrow release cuz it's a very…

  about The Rule of Jenny Penn · at 28:42

• Every I'm I'm just I'm halfway through the second of these seven novels. I think the overall concept of this entire reboot of Harry Potter is an entire season is devoted to a…

  about Harry Potter · at 40:42

• Dumbledore is he's kind of this the nuclear weapon. He only goes on very occasionally. And I think that I don't think it's going to be that hard a job. And we'll just go.

  about Dumbledore · at 43:44

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• John Lithgow — Person · Main guest · 2 mentions · first at 4:58
  Primary interview subject; discussed career, awards, theater background, recent and upcoming roles (including Winston Churchill, Dumbledore/Harry Potter), family and life logistics.
• Positive Sean — Person · Co-host · 2 mentions · first at 5:19
  One of the podcast hosts; leads portions of the interview, provides commentary and questions to the guest.
• Antipater (Antipot), son of Jason — Person · Co-host · 1 mention · first at 2:16
  One of the podcast hosts; asks questions, shares anecdotes and interacts conversationally with guest.
• George Will — Person · Co-host · 2 mentions · first at 1:04
  One of the podcast hosts; referenced several times about personal projects and plans (principal photography on Will's project).
• Jeffrey Rush — Person · Referenced collaborator / co-star · 3 mentions · first at 28:42
  Mentioned as Lithgow's co-star in The Rule of Jenny Penn and other recent projects; Lithgow describes working with Rush and the film context.
  Know? Yeah. that's And that's no small thing, by the way, to And it's very cockeyed. I just saw the premiere of a film I did with Jeffrey Rush last year called The Rule of…
• Olivia Colman — Person · Referenced collaborator · 1 mention · first at 38:56
  Mentioned as one of the esteemed actors Lithgow has worked with recently; used to illustrate quality of collaborators.
  Rafe, it was just extraordinary the interaction. yeah. I worked, listen, over the last two years, I've done roles with Rave Fines, Olivia Coleman, and Jeffrey Rush. Lord, and…
• Rafe Fiennes — Person · Referenced actor / collaborator · 1 mention · first at 38:56
  Referenced as an actor John Lithgow has worked with recently; Lithgow praises interactions and collaborative acting with Rafe (likely Ralph Fiennes; input name spelled 'Rafe' in transcript).
  Level, do you find yourself still teaching yourself new tricks? Are you work with you work with that incredible cast like you just did in Conclave? I imagine it's impossible…
• Bennett Barbo — Person · Production collaborator / show staff · 1 mention · first at 57:49
  Mentioned as someone who works on the show and has a personal connection to John Lithgow (Lithgow painted a portrait of Bennett as a fundraiser auction).
  Painting than ever. It's like It's like the portrait of Dorian Gray. I was John Muse. How are you guys connected?
• James Ashcroft — Person · Director / collaborator (referenced) · 3 mentions
  Mentioned as the New Zealand director (James Ashcroft(e) spelled Ashcraftoft in transcript) who asked Lithgow to play an outrageous role in The Rule of Jenny Penn and persuaded him to take it.
  Thought this is horrific. Who isn't in the world is going to want to see this and I spoke to this guy James Ashcro for an hour and a half and he just was so persuasive. I just…
• Isabella Rosellini — Person · Referenced co-star · 1 mention · first at 26:30
  Mentioned by Lithgow in reference to working on Conclave in Rome with Stanley Tucci and Isabella Rosellini.
  You were amazing in Conclave. Just incredible. What a beautiful movie. That was a that was a fabulous job. That was two month two months in Rome with Stanley Tucci and Isabella Roselene.
• Tina Fey — Person · Referenced author/creator (Mean Girls musical) · 1 mention · first at 1:59
  Mentioned in connection with the musical adaptation of Mean Girls that a host's daughter is in; used to contextualize anecdote.
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would have loved to have gone to see that. Really good. Oh wow. What a great show. I wish I would have seen it on Broadway, too. Does she have a big part? She does. Yeah, that's.
• Amazon Amanda — Person · Friend / social companion · 1 mention · first at 2:58
  Referenced as someone hosts have gone to events with (e.g., would have ridden in car with Amanda to Oscars); part of anecdotal social context.
  Gone with you guys to that. I wouldn't have skipped. I would have come with you. I probably would have come in the car with you and Amanda like we've done before. Yeah. and…
• Isabella Roselene — Person · Referenced collaborator (likely mis-transcribed) · 1 mention · first at 26:34
  Mentioned as a co-star alongside Stanley Tucci in Conclave; the name appears to be a transcript error likely referring to Isabella Rossellini.
  Incredible. What a beautiful movie. That was a that was a fabulous job. That was two month two months in Rome with Stanley Tucci and Isabella Roselene.
• Roland Fiennes — Person · Referenced actor · 2 mentions · first at 8:58
  Mentioned briefly while discussing notable actors and performances (may refer to Ralph/Fiennes family—Roland is a relative); short mention only.
  Most productions. Yeah, I've I've seen a few of those. Yeah, sometimes you see those. I remember seeing a what was it at Guild Hall? I thought in London it was like and…
• James & Lucinda Bruce — Person · Referenced guest possibility · 1 mention · first at 0:24
  Mentioned early as someone the hosts were excited about talking to; part of opening banter (not central to interview).
  For a podcast record? Yeah, we got a great guest today. I can't wait. I don't know, but I can't wait to talk to Bruce.
• Akim Jeff — Person · Referenced collaborator (Mean Girls musical) · 1 mention · first at 2:05
  Mentioned as contributor to the Mean Girls musical (Jeff—likely Jeff Richmond, Tina Fey's collaborator) in passing during anecdote about a school musical.
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would have loved to have gone to see that. Really good. Oh wow. What a great show. I wish I would have seen it on Broadway, too. Does she have a big part? She does. Yeah, that's.
• William Shakespeare — Person · 8 mentions · first at 6:58
  Drawing? Drawing and painting and print making. but meantime just as a like my dad produced summer Shakespeare festivals and that was my summers was hanging around watching…
• Dumbledore — Person · 5 mentions · first at 32:37
  Crazy right angle turns I keep taking. just think being asked to play Dumbledore is contemplating literally years in England. I know. And that just disrupts everything. We have…
• Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill — Person · 4 mentions · first at 22:30
  Like everybody else over the years. But you go and you take an iconic character in The Crown, you play Winston Churchill, which I think for my money, and this is no disrespect…
• Jeffrey Rush — Person · 3 mentions · first at 28:42
  Small thing, by the way, to And it's very cockeyed. I just saw the premiere of a film I did with Jeffrey Rush last year called The Rule of Jenny Penn, which I urge you to look…
• Darnella Frasier — Person · 2 mentions · first at 15:53
  That. in fact, I something happened and I forgot it happened. I was asked to be Frasier on Cheers. Oh, wow.
• Sam W — Person · 1 mention · first at 8:27
  A wonderful production of Much to Do About Nothing in New York in my 1970s theater days with Sam W and Kathleen Widows and it was set in Teddy Roosevelt's America which was kind of ragtime music and it contemporized the dialogue a bit.
• Teddy Roosevelt — Person · 1 mention · first at 8:32
  About Nothing in New York in my 1970s theater days with Sam W and Kathleen Widows and it was set in Teddy Roosevelt's America which was kind of ragtime music and it contemporized the dialogue a bit.
• Bonnie and Terry Turner — Person · 1 mention · first at 16:32
  Worked on Saturday Night Live. I hosted Saturday Night Live three times in the 80s. And two of those times, Bonnie and Terry Turner were on the writing staff.
• Kristen Johnston — Person · 1 mention · first at 17:17
  Who what is this comic idea, right? a general who has to inhabit the body of a woman became Kristen Johnston.
• Dean Pitchford — Person · 1 mention · first at 25:40
  Great movie. I love this movie. There was so much meat on the bone. Herbert Ross, the director, and Dean Pitchford, who wrote it, they really took this story seriously, and I…
• Herbert Ross — Person · 1 mention · first at 25:40
  Great movie. I love this movie. There was so much meat on the bone. Herbert Ross, the director, and Dean Pitchford, who wrote it, they really took this story seriously, and I…
• Ashley Shaw — Person · 1 mention · first at 25:47
  Pitchford, who wrote it, they really took this story seriously, and I felt I had to take this character, Reverend Shaw, more seriously. And I, who have virtually no religion in…
• Stanley Tucci — Person · 1 mention · first at 26:36
  Was a that was a fabulous job. That was two month two months in Rome with Stanley Tucci and Isabella Roselene.
• Oscar Levant — Person · 1 mention · first at 33:44
  Never want to stop doing that. By the way, Sean, I have to ask you, are you going to play Oscar Levant again? Cuz I missed it. And at the Barbin and this summer in London. I…
• Darlene Hunt — Person · 1 mention · first at 41:39
  Audience. So, they're so well made. They are. Really quick story. So, do you know Darlene Hunt? She's a good friend of mine. She's a writer. Brilliant. She created the Big C show on Oh, yeah.
• Margaret Chase Smith — Person · 1 mention · first at 42:21
  Make them feel like they're coming in, right? The thing. And so, she pulls up with a pizza dressed as Maggie Smith in the big pointy hat, you know? McGonagal with a huge cape…
• Missy Vocal Singer — Person · 1 mention · first at 47:24
  Get the award. So I had it in my hand and I tripped and I knocked the tooth out of Missy Vocal Singer's mouth. And she would, my god, I swear to God, Missy Vocal Singer to this…
• Deborah Winger — Person · 1 mention · first at 52:29
  Replacing another actor. Huh. They had shot a couple of scenes with Deborah Winger in terms of him and they had to let him go because it just wasn't right. They just didn't…
• Bennett Barbakow — Person · 1 mention
• Deborah Aquila — Person · 1 mention
• Greg Lori — Person · 1 mention
• James Ashcroft — Person · 1 mention
• Jane Curtin — Person · 1 mention
• Jeff Richmond — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Harry Potter — Book · Referenced work · 4 mentions · first at 5:05
  Mentioned in the context of John Lithgow being cast as Dumbledore in the upcoming series.
  Every I'm I'm just I'm halfway through the second of these seven novels. I think the overall concept of this entire reboot of Harry Potter is an entire season is devoted to a…
• The Rule of Jenny Penn — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 28:44
  Mentioned as a recent film John Lithgow worked on.
• The Changing Room — Book · 4 mentions · first at 4:49
  Three Golden Globes. He's got all sorts of I mean it's just incredible. And we know him from he won a Tony for the changing room. He was nominated for the world according to Garp. We loved him on third rock for the sun. I loved him.
• Mean Girls — Book · 1 mention · first at 1:57
  Last show at her school as a senior. it they're it's tonight is the final night. They're doing Mean Girls that Tina Fey did with her husband the book and music with Jeff.
• The World According to Garp — Book · 1 mention · first at 4:52
  Of I mean it's just incredible. And we know him from he won a Tony for the changing room. He was nominated for the world according to Garp. We loved him on third rock for the sun. I loved him.
• A Doll's House — Book · 1 mention · first at 5:51
  Actually the first acting I ever did. I was about 2 years old, one of Norah's children in a doll's house with my father playing Torva. Wow. I And I remember absolutely nothing about it, but I'm told I'm told I was very good.
• Doll's House Part Two — Book · 1 mention · first at 6:16
  But did you see did you get a chance to see Doll's House Part Two? Yes, of course. With Lori. How great was that?
• Midsummer Night's Dream — Book · 1 mention · first at 7:09
  Hanging around watching rehearsals being in the plays as like a fairy in Midsummer Night's Dream or a foot soldier. in fact, by the time I was a teenager, I was playing bits…
• Circulation — Book · 1 mention · first at 8:58
  Was like and everybody's on motorcycles and stuff and then of course Ray Fines when he did Hamlet on Broadway was incredible. I really love that back in the 90s. I thought that…
• Much Ado About Nothing — Book · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

• Harvard — Company · Affiliation · 3 mentions · first at 9:40
  John Lithgow mentions attending Harvard and his involvement in theater there.
  Yeah. Princeton High. And then you went to And then you went to Harvard. Yeah.
• UCLA — Company · Affiliation · 3 mentions
  Mentioned as where John Lithgow's wife is a professor.
  Things you don't want to say. So sweet of you to ask, Jason. That's a huge factor. I've been married 43 years to my wife Mary who's a UCLA professor of history, economic and business history. we are an unlikely couple. God never meant.
• The Crown — Company · 3 mentions · first at 22:30
  Like everybody else over the years. But you go and you take an iconic character in The Crown, you play Winston Churchill, which I think for my money, and this is no disrespect…
• Carnegie Tech — Company · 1 mention · first at 10:14
  Like best friends with all these young theater actors mainly sort of graduates from Carnegie Tech who'd come down to do my dad's Shakespeare festivals. I had lived in that world. So it just came very naturally. And I was a campus.
• The Facts of Life — Company · 1 mention · first at 14:00
  Which one were you on? I was on the same evening as Will and Jason although they were in the facts of life and I was in Different Strokes so we didn't really interact except at…
• Carsey and Werner — Company · 1 mention · first at 17:54
  Tricked into the meeting. I thought I was just having a meeting with my friends Bonnie and Terry, but Carsey and Werner and they were all there and I thought, my god, how do I…
• Assembly of God — Company · 1 mention · first at 26:01
  Actually sought out a preacher. I in the yellow pages I in the yellow pages I looked up the an Assembly of God ministry and called up and sought spiritual advice. Wow. Wow.…
• The Rule of Jenny Penn — Company · 1 mention · first at 28:44
  Very cockeyed. I just saw the premiere of a film I did with Jeffrey Rush last year called The Rule of Jenny Penn, which I urge you to look up. It's about to be released in…
• Baltimore Center Stage — Company · 1 mention · first at 36:18
  M I'd been hired to be the artistic director of Baltimore Center Stage and I had accepted like what else I've got to work and I pulled out after two weeks when I was finally offered to be a member of the resident.
• The Big C — Company · 1 mention · first at 41:42
  Darlene Hunt? She's a good friend of mine. She's a writer. Brilliant. She created the Big C show on Oh, yeah.
• Lab School — Company · 1 mention · first at 57:28
  Eight, nine years old. And I know Bennett's folks all these years. We Wait, wait, Bennett, you went to the lab school? I sure did. Before it was called Lab School. Yeah. And…
• Delta — Company · 1 mention
• LAMDA — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• Conclave — Product · 2 mentions · first at 26:24
  Was doing. Yeah, if I'm if I'm going to imitate it and well and then I'm sure you apply that to Conclave and you were amazing in Conclave. Just incredible. What a beautiful…
• SmartLess — Product · 1 mention · first at 0:36
  It's going to be an amazing Somebody fire up the music. Welcome to a new Smartless Smart L.
• Will's project — Product · 1 mention · first at 1:04
  Into we're in the second day of what the business calls principal photography on Will's Will's project. And so far so good. That's what I'm thinking. So far so good, man. who knows?
• All in the Family — Product · 1 mention · first at 14:08
  Life and I was in Different Strokes so we didn't really interact except at parties. I did it all in the family and it was really fun. Wasn't Wasn't that fun? Fabulous.
• Seinfeld — Product · 1 mention · first at 19:07
  In so many cases you go back and see the original pilot episode of a great show like Seinfeld and you realize they hadn't found it yet. Yes. We had 13 chances to find it and it…
• Butterbeer — Product · 1 mention · first at 42:08
  Blah. So, I go, You know what? We're going to we're going to just go balls out. We're going to make butterbeer for your girls. We're going to play the music when they walk in. Scotty dressed up as Harry Potter for Halloween once.
• Planet of the Apes — Product · 1 mention · first at 45:31
  By the way, you did in Planet of the Apes. I was you were an Alzheimer's person. Sean, I love you. You I didn't I didn't have to bring that up myself.
• Terms of Endearment — Product · 1 mention · first at 52:21
  That I play. But you actually, I got a Tony Award sorry, an Oscar nomination for Terms of Endearment replacing another actor. Huh. They had shot a couple of scenes with Deborah…
• Diff'rent Strokes — Product · 1 mention
• Footloose — Product · 1 mention
• Giant — Product · 1 mention
• Rise of the Planet of the Apes — Product · 1 mention
• Third Rock from the Sun — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

• Dumbledore — Concept · Core topic · 5 mentions · first at 32:37
  Central to the discussion about John Lithgow's upcoming role in the Harry Potter series.
• Harry Potter — Concept · Core topic · 4 mentions · first at 5:05
  Discussed in the context of John Lithgow being cast in the Harry Potter series reboot.
• Academy Award — Concept · 1 mention · first at 4:01
  Perfect like the moment you mention it because well, first of all, he's had he's been nominated for two Academy Awards. Oh my god. and yeah. Yeah. he's been nominated for I…
• Golden Globe — Concept · 1 mention · first at 4:45
  More awards and nominations that it's countless. I think he's got like two or three Golden Globes. He's got all sorts of I mean it's just incredible. And we know him from he…
• World War I — Concept · 1 mention · first at 8:41
  Yeah. Contemp coming back from World War I and it was as spirited it captured the spirit of Shakespeare better than most productions. Yeah, I've I've seen a few of those. Yeah, sometimes you see.
• English history and literature — Concept · 1 mention · first at 9:48
  And you I know. And you continued your and you were there and you were studying what at Harvard English history and literature very scholarly major but I fell in with the theater gang immediately and that's when it happened.
• Trans people — Concept · 1 mention · first at 13:17
  And said, Robera and I have a lot in common. And it was one of many amazing transactions with trans people way back. This was 40 years ago.
• Sitcom — Concept · 1 mention · first at 14:56
  Like and Sean I'll go to you and also Jason because you all three of you guys have such you know storied sitcom careers all of us. What did you and I and I did too but I but I…
• Fulbright scholarship — Concept · 1 mention · first at 20:36
  So here's an interesting So you leave Harvard and then you go on a I think like a Fulbright scholarship or something to Lambda. Is that right? Is that right? That's right.…
• Tony — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

• Academy Award — Event · Core topic · 1 mention · first at 4:01
  The hosts discuss the Oscars and John Lithgow's nominations and wins.
  Perfect like the moment you mention it because well, first of all, he's had he's been nominated for two Academy Awards. Oh my god. and yeah. Yeah. he's been nominated for I…
• Emmys — Event · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 4:06
  Mentioned in the context of John Lithgow's awards and nominations.
  He's been nominated for two Academy Awards. Oh my god. and yeah. Yeah. he's been nominated for I don't know 12 Emmys. He's won six. this isn't some garbage guest. No, no, no.
• Golden Globe — Event · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 4:44
  Mentioned in the context of John Lithgow's awards and nominations.
  More awards and nominations that it's countless. I think he's got like two or three Golden Globes. He's got all sorts of I mean it's just incredible. And we know him from he…
• New York, New York — Place · Setting · 9 mentions · first at 8:24
  Mentioned as a location where John Lithgow has lived and worked.
  Splurged and bought a beautiful New York apartment. So we find so it just so I won't have that reaction. I can think of living a wonderful life in New York when I'm doing a New…
• Harvard — Place · Setting · 3 mentions · first at 9:38
  Mentioned as part of John Lithgow's educational background.
  Yeah. Princeton High. And then you went to And then you went to Harvard. Yeah.
• Lambda — Place · Setting · 2 mentions · first at 9:10
  Mentioned as where John Lithgow went on a Fulbright scholarship.
  So here's an interesting So you leave Harvard and then you go on a I think like a Fulbright scholarship or something to Lambda. Is that right? Is that right? That's right. Yeah. And I.
• Fontana — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at 46:11
  Mentioned as where John Lithgow has a cabin with his wife.
  That dream. And Mary's from Montana. We have a little cabin on a lake in northwestern Montana. And we that's kind of our runaway place which is just absolutely beautiful. So, it's great.
• Broadway — Place · 8 mentions · first at 2:11
  Have gone to see that. Really good. Oh wow. What a great show. I wish I would have seen it on Broadway, too. Does she have a big part? She does. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's…
• Ohio — Place · 7 mentions
• London — Place · 5 mentions · first at 8:53
  Few of those. Yeah, sometimes you see those. I remember seeing a what was it at Guild Hall? I thought in London it was like and everybody's on motorcycles and stuff and then of…
• Guild Hall — Place · 1 mention · first at 8:53
  Few of those. Yeah, sometimes you see those. I remember seeing a what was it at Guild Hall? I thought in London it was like and everybody's on motorcycles and stuff and then of…
• New Jersey (Jersey) — Place · 1 mention · first at 9:33
  Which is just in your blood. And then you go and then you graduated from high school in New Jersey, I think, from in Princeton, New Jersey, right?
• Princeton — Place · 1 mention · first at 9:35
  You go and then you graduated from high school in New Jersey, I think, from in Princeton, New Jersey, right?
• Princeton High — Place · 1 mention · first at 9:36
  Your dad was working Princeton High.
• Radford — Place · 1 mention · first at 14:33
  No, that was the first time we met. And yeah, and Sean, you and I used to be neighbors on the lot at Radford when you third. Yeah, back in the day. That was so many great shows…
• New Zealand — Place · 1 mention · first at 29:16
  Really is. He's a crazy guy who's out to torment Jeffrey Rush in a senior care facility in New Zealand. this is a crazy film and it is great. I read that script. this wonderful young director in New Zealand named James.
• West End — Place · 1 mention · first at 33:59
  Be there in the first weeks of Dumbledore. And I'm And I'm doing a play in the West End that you able to see.
• New Haven — Place · 1 mention · first at 35:55
  Super real. I'll read for that. Yeah, it's it's a great thing that we did at the Long Warf Theater in New Haven and it got a lot of national press and moved to Broadway. Until…
• Primrose Hill — Place · 1 mention · first at 44:07
  You're in London? What's your favorite Well, I've lived in We lived up in near Primrose Hill on the Crown. We lived near the royal court in Chelsea this past fall when I did…
• Chelsea — Place · 1 mention · first at 44:10
  Well, I've lived in We lived up in near Primrose Hill on the Crown. We lived near the royal court in Chelsea this past fall when I did the play. and I've had oh god they found…
• Montana — Place · 1 mention · first at 46:11
  That dream. And Mary's from Montana. We have a little cabin on a lake in northwestern Montana. And we that's kind of our runaway place which is just absolutely beautiful. So, it's great.
• Barbican — Place · 1 mention
• Long Wharf Theatre — Place · 1 mention
• Rome — Place · 1 mention
• Royal Court Theatre — Place · 1 mention

Media & podcasts

• Dumbledore — Character · Referenced role · 5 mentions · first at 32:37
  Character John Lithgow says he was cast to play in the Harry Potter reboot; central to his upcoming professional plans and logistics discussed.
  Gentlemen. Gentlemen. This is so exciting. Standard. Wait. And John, you just got cast in Harry Potter. You're gumball. There's all sorts of news.
• Harry Potter — Character · Referenced IP / franchise · 4 mentions · first at 5:05
  Referenced because John Lithgow discusses being cast in the Harry Potter series (as Dumbledore), and the franchise context is part of conversation about upcoming work.
  Every I'm I'm just I'm halfway through the second of these seven novels. I think the overall concept of this entire reboot of Harry Potter is an entire season is devoted to a…
• Footloose — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 25:19
  Mentioned as a challenging role John Lithgow played as the Reverend.
• The Rule of Jenny Penn — Media · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at 28:44
  Mentioned as a recent film John Lithgow acted in, playing a monstrous character.
  Know? Yeah. that's And that's no small thing, by the way, to And it's very cockeyed. I just saw the premiere of a film I did with Jeffrey Rush last year called The Rule of…
• Dexter — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 39:49
  Mentioned as a show John Lithgow is recognized for by people on the street.
  An airplane and you drop your license, when you What is the thing that people say to you? I would say probably Third Rock, Dexter, and Winston Churchill.
• Conclave — Media · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at 26:24
  Mentioned as a film John Lithgow acted in, described as beautiful.
  Find someone who truly believed what he was doing. Yeah, if I'm if I'm going to imitate it and well and then I'm sure you apply that to Conclave and you were amazing in…
• Terms of Endearment — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 52:21
  Mentioned as a film John Lithgow was nominated for an Oscar for replacing another actor.
  I got a Tony Award sorry, an Oscar nomination for Terms of Endearment replacing another actor. Huh. They had shot a couple of scenes with Deborah Winger in terms of him and…
• Raising Cain — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 59:22
  Mentioned as a film John Lithgow acted in, playing scary characters.
  Can he has played I'm trying to think. He's played like some Raising Kane. Yeah. Yeah. Raising Kane. some scary characters and he's still doing theater. how about he's Yeah, I'm doing Dumbledore. Oh, I'm going to do this play though.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:06 Hey guys, you hear that creek in the door? That's the opening to the cold. Cold open, right? Stop trying to explain the cold open every time we do a cold open. Yeah, in the door. Are you guys up for a podcast record? Yeah, we got a great guest today. I can't wait. I don't know, but I can't wait to talk to Bruce. It's going to be an amazing Somebody fire up the music. Welcome to a new Smartless Smart L

0:53 smart. Did you go late last night, Willie? How's it going? listener, we're into we're in the second day of what the business calls principal photography on uh on Will's Will's project. And so far so good. That's what I'm thinking. So far so good, man. You know, who knows? Who knows? So far so good. I love it. Yeah. But you know, a lot like if something's going to be sideways, you can you can smell it on the first day. Yes. And and No, it feels Yeah, it feels good. I mean, you know, uh, do you want me to take a look at the footage or do you mind? Yeah, you just sent it. Yeah, happy to do a pass. Email it. Yeah, I'll just I'm email and then a minute later, couple things already. Wait, JB, how's your thing going? How are you feeling down there?

1:41 Great. Great. Fun. Oh, that's good. But I'm back home with the uh with the kitties and the mommy and um I saw Franny's Franny's doing a musical her last show at uh at her school as a senior. Uh it they're uh it's uh tonight is the final night. They're doing Mean Girls that um Tina Fey did with her husband um the book and music with Jeff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would have loved to have gone to see that. Really good. Oh wow. What a great show. I wish I would have seen it on Broadway, too. Does she have a big part? She does. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's very I'm very proud of her. Will I see you tomorrow, Jason? Uh, yes, you know. Okay, great. Great. No.

2:22 Well, wait. Yes, you know. Are you going or are you Oh, you're going to the a little ga gathering. A little party thing. Yeah. What are you going to do? You going to I'm going to skip that and I'm going to go to our friend's house. Oh, you're going to go to that gathering, JB? Yeah. Yeah. Now, Willie, what are you what are you going to do for the big uh listener? We're talking about um Hollywood's uh self- congratulatory evening of the Oscars. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. We're we're taping this on the eve of the Oscars, right? Yeah. So, Willie, you're going to uh you going to watch with uh some friends at all or are you going to study your lines and go to bed early? I think that if I had been there, I would have gone with you guys to that. Um I wouldn't have skipped. I would have come with you. I probably would have come in the car with you and Amanda like we've done before. Yeah. Um, and Sean and

3:09 Scotty, but I guess Sean is too big for that now or something. I don't know. Huge. Well, he wanted Tony and then he's like, I don't I don't have time for it. I need a follow van. Yeah. Yeah. No, you guys. I drove. Who's going to carry my shoes? Oh, you did. You did. No, we remember we met at my last year. We met at my house and I came down cuz I was still doing putting on my tx or whatever it was and I just hear Jason I just hear Jason rummaging through my pantry looking looking for stuff that and also rumaging through my nose. He pulled my nose hairs out. Yeah. You know you there was a lot of cameras on these nights. You know it's not a radio thing.

3:43 God he you really did. You know what it's funny that we're talking about this big night because our guest today and this is it will what do you got a lunch? Well, no, but normally we normally normally you're like, "Oh, what's the segue?" And this couldn't be more perfect like the moment you mention it because well, first of all, he's had uh he's been nominated for two Academy Awards. Oh my god. Um and yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's been nominated for I don't know 12 Emmys. He's won six. Um this isn't some garbage guest. No, no, no.

4:14 Buckle up, you guys. This is Every once in a while, we class it up over here. And this to me is like gold standard class it up actors actor. I mean this is one of those guys that I every performance of his I adore. I love watching him and we all have over the years. He won his he won a Tony in his Broadway debut, Sean. So take that. Gosh. Yeah. So he's got you licked. And then he he's gone on to have so many more awards and nominations that it's countless. I think he's got like two or three Golden Globes. He's got all sorts of I mean it's just incredible. And we know him from he won a Tony for the changing room. He was nominated for the world according to Garp. We loved him on third rock for the sun. I loved him.

4:58 Johnow. John Lithgow. Gentlemen. Gentlemen. This is so exciting. Standard. Wait. And John, you just got cast in Harry Potter. You're gumball. There's all sorts of news. Gentlemen, so much stuff. So excited. And we were just talking about you yesterday. This is so bizarre. Oh god. Sean, Sean, Sean, I'm gonna John, first of all, welcome to Smart List. What an honor to have you on the show today. That honor is completely mine, you guys. It's a fantastic podcast. Truly, truly, truly. And and and I was excited and and we're all excited, but I know Sean's been excited because John, you were quite literally raised in the theater.

5:39 Yeah. Is that true? Well, yes, it's true. Uh, I was a theater rat, uh, from actually the first acting I ever did. I was about 2 years old, one of Norah's children in a doll's house with my father playing Torva. Wow. I And I I remember absolutely nothing about it, but I'm told I'm told I was very good. That was the beginning of things. But I was, you know, you set the bar high at two. Yeah. Well, there were no uh supporting actor nods back at that age. But did you see did you get a chance to see Doll's House Part Two? Yes, of course. With Lori. How great was that?

6:20 Fantastic. I love that show. I love Lorie Med. So, so then was was there any other thing that ever got into your head that you might be doing with your life or was it just like that was it? From a very young age, I thought I should be an artist. I wanted to be an artist. I I sort of had a a a facility and parents that encouraged that and bought me wonderful art supplies and I had great public school art teachers and I was very serious about it. Did it start with drawing? Drawing and painting and print making. Uh but but meantime just as a like my dad produced summer Shakespeare festivals and that was my summers was hanging around watching rehearsals being in the plays as as like a fairy in Midsummer Night's Dream or a foot soldier. Uh, in fact, by the time I was a teenager, I was playing bits and pieces in Shakespeare in rape revatory like seven plays a summer, a a crazy childhood in Ohio. Now, you might not be

7:27 the right person to answer this, but I I've always had a a fear of even trying Shakespeare because I think that it would be almost impossible for me to learn the lines because it's basically a different language. Mhm. Um, but since you started so young, did was that was that a a hurdle for you or do do you think I'd how difficult a thing is that? Not at all. I I mean, you're right. I I had the great good luck to just hear that language all the time. But it is learning another language or at least feeling that it is a natural way of communicating. Yeah. Right. You certainly can't paraphrase. No, you you have to be precise. Uh yeah. Yeah.

8:10 You're not throw you're not throwing a lot of like I mean and um right you know like Yeah. although you know there's wonderful Shakespeare that completely breaks all the rules. Uh yeah, there was a wonderful production of Much to Do About Nothing in New York in my 1970s theater days with Sam W and uh Kathleen Widows and it was set in Teddy Roosevelt's America which was kind of ragtime music and uh it contemporized the dialogue a bit. Yeah. Contemp coming back from World War I and it was as as spirited it captured the spirit of Shakespeare better than most productions. Yeah, I've I've seen a few of those. Yeah, sometimes you see those. I remember seeing a what was it at Guild Hall? I thought in London it was like and everybody's on motorcycles and stuff and then and then of course Ray Fines when he did Hamlet on Broadway was incredible. I really love that back in the 90s. I thought that was pretty

9:04 remarkable and but so so John so you grow so your your dad was a produced theater and and your mom was an was an actress. Is that right? She was retired actress. She was but she I never really knew her as an actor. She retired early and just sort of kept track of the of the family. I mean, we literally lived in about eight different places. It was a it was we were like a vaudeville troop except it was Shakespeare, which is just in your blood. And then you go and then and then you graduated from high school in New Jersey, I think, from in Princeton, New Jersey, right?

9:36 Your dad was working Princeton High. Yeah. Princeton High. And then you went to And then you went to Harvard. Yeah. And you I know. And you continued your and you were there and you were studying what at Harvard uh English history and literature very scholarly major but I I fell in with the theater gang immediately and that's when it happened. That's that's when I decided you you know I was already like a seasoned actor by pure osmosis, right? I had just been around actors. I and my siblings were like best friends with all these young theater actors mainly sort of graduates from Carnegie Tech who'd come down to do my dad's Shakespeare festivals. I had lived in that world. So it just came very naturally. And uh and I was a campus star at Harvard. And if you're a star at anything at Harvard, you'd better go with the flow because that is a competitive place. I wasn't good at anything but acting there. And uh What

10:36 about your What about your siblings? Did they do did they go into the same same field? No, both my sisters were teachers and wonderful teachers and they and they directed the student theater. Oh, really? Uh and they they were and my older brother was an airline pilot. uh who then retired and worked for the FAA. No way. Wait, did he did he fly big commercial planes? Yeah. Yeah. Charter flights. I I was never in an airplane that he was piloting. No, maybe. No, maybe that was against the rules. I don't know. But that would unsettle me.

11:14 I I like I I like that whole sense that I'd never really see the pilot uh that Yeah. Because I just don't feel like it's something humans should even be able to do. It's so specialized and fly to fly a plane. It's just like how do you how do you do that? You know, if I if they become human to me, then all the all the throwables go along with But wait, but but you p but as you board it, you pass. Do you just not look into the cockpit? Yeah. I just look right. I look right. Jason, John, you have to you have to John, you have to understand something about Jason. He has very interesting ways of compartmentalizing things and putting things in certain it's it's always f right Sean. It's always fascinating to Amazing. And you're such an Jason, you're such an easy flyer, too. As and these guys know I get quite nervous and Jason just like you never get phased. You're like you give into the right once you're on there. I do. I

12:06 hit [ __ ] it real quick. Um and and I Well, my mom was a steartist for flight attendant uh for Panama for 30 some years. So I like, you know, I would always get nervous when she'd leave, but she always came home. And I'm like, well, you know, all this I I would always fly I would always make sure I flew the first flight out in the morning so I didn't sleep. So when I got on the plane, I was so exhausted I didn't care what happened. Oh. Oh. Oh, I thought I thought you were flying the first one out because you thought that that one had the best best odds of landing. Well, that's true. First flight. Yeah. when I I my favorite uh airline pilot story beyond my brother's many many stories when I was in world according to Garp playing Roberto Maldun I was amazing wasn't cadging for applause gentlemen you're going to get it on no but there's a audience here I love that caring well at at a certain point early in the

13:00 flight the flight attendant came back this woman in a Delta pilot's uniform and she crouched next to me and said how much she appreciated me as Robera Maldun and said, "Robera and I have a lot in common." And it was it was one of many amazing transactions with uh with trans people way back. This was 40 years ago. Yeah. Now, John, do you remember? Hang on. Just while just just while we're on the flight thing, John, do you remember we met on a flight? Uh oh. And and you probably don't remember and I think that I dropped my or you dropped your license and I found your license and I handed it to you. Do you remember that? Yes, of course I remember years ago. Yeah. In fact, I I I always regretted that I hadn't I hadn't recalled that when we actually worked together cuz we did work together. We sort of did and didn't when we did live in front of a studio audience. When we did Exactly. Right.

13:55 Which one were you on? I was I was on the same evening as Will and Jason although they were in uh the facts of life and I was in Different Strokes so we we didn't really interact except at parties. I did it all in the family and it was really fun. Wasn't Wasn't that fun? Fabulous. Now if I had found John Lithggo's uh uh uh driver's license, I would have kept that. Yeah, that would have just been that would have just been a great little thing. You just keep Well, he was across the aisle, so I couldn't really, you know, I would have felt bad. So, so uh No, that was the first time we met. And yeah, and Sean, you and I used to be neighbors on the lot at Radford when you third. Yeah, back in the day. That was so many great shows being shot there at that time. One lot. Yeah, it was kind of amazing. All yelling distance from each other. Did you like doing John? You had such a facility obviously because of

14:48 your your intense theater background and your upbringing in the theater. Did you like and Sean I'll go to you and also Jason because you all three of you guys have such you know storied sitcom careers all of us. What did you and and I and I did too but I I but I What did you did you like that experience of making a a a a multi- camera show? I absolutely loved it. just, you know, those I consider those it was like the six happiest years as an actor. Just just interacting with with this great writing staff, the third rock staff was so terrific and it was so inane. Just spending all your time figuring out the funny and and entertaining a studio audience on just like three days rehearsal. I just And you get a fresh script the next week. Yeah. And Third Rock, of course, was just flatout nutball farce. We Yeah. Yeah. It was great. Uh, I never thought I would do that. Uh, in fact, uh, I I something

15:51 happened and I forgot it happened. I was asked to be Frasier on Cheers. Oh, wow. Oh my god. I didn't know that. And I turned it turned it down out of hand. I honestly didn't even remember it had happened until Jimmy Burroughs reminded me years and years later when he directed Third Rock. Yeah, just because at that point, you know, I had a few movies under my belt. I had a couple of Oscar nominations and so beneath my dignity. I was I was such an [ __ ] A pretentious [ __ ] Uh but you know, I worked on Saturday Night Live. I hosted Saturday Night Live three times in the 80s. And two of those times, Bonnie and Terry Turner were on the writing staff.

16:36 Wow. They pitched it to me and when they pitched it to me, suddenly it seemed like so much fun. And and they they I was the only person they could even imagine playing Dick Solomon because it had to be an alien who was completely clueless but could try anything. Yeah. Yeah. That's so great. And what a catch. Joseph Gordon Levit and Oh, it was a wonderful John. Yeah. Jane Curtain. So Jane Curtain, of course. Yeah. And the long process of casting it was so exciting because was it did it take a long time? A long time because in each case it had we had to figure out just who what is this comic idea, right? You know, a a a general who has to inhabit the body of a woman became Kristen Johnston.

17:23 If you if you went to pitch it, John, well, if you went to pitch that idea, it's it's pretty high concept. You're like, what's the show? Okay, so here it is. And the network would be like, "Wait a second. What?" Well, they had already, it was already a go. They came to me to pitch it. And that's exactly what Terry Turner, he said. He said, "Well, it's about this family of aliens." And of course, I had been sort of I'd been tricked into the meeting. I thought I was just having a meeting with my friends Bonnie and Terry, but uh Carsey and Werner and they they were all there and I thought, my god, how do I say no to this fast enough? But in in 5 minutes, he had brought me around. I I it just seemed suddenly like, what in the world have I been waiting for? Did you have any idea that it might go as long as it did, or did you think it was kind of going to be a pilot and out or maybe half a season? Well, it was a

18:19 freaky situation because when we finally produced the show, we had done the pilot and it was picked up all right by NBC, but it was picked up as a mid-season replacement. So, we had done 13 of them before anybody had seen it. And, you know, well into this, we had realized, oh my god, we really have something here. We we felt like we had the Hope Diamond in our pocket. Uh I mean you know you know how cocky you can get when you have been working hard enough on something you persuade yourself it's great in your bubble but we were able to sort of frontline all the great episodes. We had had those 13 episodes to figure out the funny to to figure out what this show was. You know in so many cases you go back and see the original pilot episode of a great show like Seinfeld and you realize they hadn't found it yet. Yes. We we had 13 chances to find it and and it it was released midseason in January and bam

19:20 just hit like that. You know there's a sort of a freedom in that in that in that in the sense that yes you you you can feel that you have something but there is an absence of ego because there's it hasn't been received yet. Right? So you there's a purity to that and I remember and in on a smaller scale but when Jason when we did rest development we shot so many before it aired and I remember in that time in that bubble from sort of that year from July till November we were just making this thing and there was nobody watching us and there was a freedom in that of nobody watching right and you don't have to protect anything yeah you don't have to protect you don't have anything to lose well it's a it's a high wire out you can take chances is and you can and you're not worried because there's there's nobody watching. Do you know what I mean? It gives it just gives you a chance to find it. And you had the

20:10 added challenge. We at least had a studio audience and when they laughed we knew we were funny, right? You know, so in a in a sense you were you were flying blind until people actually saw it. And we will be right back. And now back to the show. So here's an interesting So you leave Harvard and then you go on a I think like a Fulbright scholarship or something to Lambda. Is that right? Is that right? That's right. Yeah. And I mean so you go and and I've always marveled at you know we we have plenty of uh uh really amazing uh talent that comes out of the UK that comes and works over here and and they've they've all been really well trained and they and they're very respected and it's a difficult thing to go the other direction. I think that there's a little bit right it's I think it's a harder I I it just is or at least the perception is that it is and and I thought that it was you know it's a real testament to your

21:10 ability as an actor and as an I hate to break it to you said you're not going to be an artist you want you are an artist and you went over there and and really uh you know just sort of jumped right into into that and and being a performer over there overseas and and you did a lot of theater over there as well. You did Shakespeare in England as an American. Yeah, that's got to be wild. Well, I as I say, I did have this head start with my curious upbringing. Yeah. And and it's it's true that a lot more people flow in our direction than the other way around. But I think it's because Shakespeare really is the spine of the the English school of acting and I had done a lot of Shakespeare. Uh, and that's not true of many American actors, right? But it in the other direction, there's plenty of American culture. I mean, you get Australian actors and English actors who you can't believe how authentic their their language is, their

22:10 they don't even need a dialect coach by now. They they've been watching they've been watching Friends all these their whole lives. But but at the same time, but then you go and you do and I wanted to get to this, which was I I you've so many amazing performances that I've just really enjoyed and adored like everybody else over the years. But you go and you take an iconic character in The Crown, you play Winston Churchill, which I think for my for my money, and this is no disrespect to anybody else who's ever played Winston Churchill. To me, it's the defining Winston Churchill. And I I I was so riveted by it. Every Right. It's incredible, Jason. I know you haven't watched The Crown. You have to see it just for John. It's It's mindblowing.

22:51 Yeah, it's it's incredible performance. You can't get more iconic for an English character than Winston Churchill. Well, it was kind of astonishing that they even asked me to do it, but I mean, so much of it was the way they situated Churchill in that story. It wasn't a history historical drama. It was like almost a family drama. It was it was a extremely intimate and personal look at Churchill with all of his eccentricities and and infirmities and insecurities and uh that's very much what I took off from. Uh must have been daunting though.

23:30 It was very scary except that all the English actors welcomed me in. They had more confidence in me than than I had in myself. And I just uh went to to to work at it. I I found, you know, the most interesting thing I did in all my research, what I found was reading all about him as a child and as a boy and as a young man, tremendously insecure, growing up a failure with very neglectful parents and just feeling like a screw-up like there had had been so many expectations of him that he would. So that so many things in his life were pure overmpensation. So you approach your old age and to me all the characteristics you had in childhood kick in that I sort of worked from that and I think that's what people thought was kind of new about it. That is interesting. Yeah, he and and he had such and childhood and his and his uh his adult life was very was varied in the things that he did right sort of head of the admiral te and

24:35 all that kind of stuff, right? But so many huge successes and colossal failures and kind of constantly recovering one from another like a parabola. Uh I you know I asked Steven Daldry the director why he had cast me. I'd said yes and we sat down for breakfast and his first response was well Churchill's mother was an American and that's true. She was this Baltimore aristocrat. So that's right. there was as much difference between uh an American Winston Churchill and Englishmen who are not Winston Churchill. He was quite an anomaly and I think that that came in handy. That's so interesting. What about um was it as challenging as playing the Reverend and Foot Loose?

25:19 That was a challenge in its own way. Uh just because Are you bummed you didn't cut loose? I hated that one. I felt like, you know, it was it was actually Foot Loose. I I go back and look at Foot Loose now and I think that was a really good movie. Great movie. I love this movie. There was so much meat on the bone. Herbert Herbert Ross, the director, and Dean Pitchford, who wrote it, they really took this story seriously, and I felt I had to take this character, Reverend Shaw, more seriously. And I, who have virtually no religion in me, had to I I actually sought out a preacher. I in the yellow pages I in the yellow pages I looked up the an Assembly of God ministry and and called up and sought spiritual advice. Wow. Wow. Hey, will you share that ad? Will you share that contact with Jason? That'd be great. You can use but I I felt I felt I had to find someone who truly believed what he was doing. Yeah, if I'm if I'm going to

26:22 imitate it and well and then and then I'm sure you apply that to Conclave and you were amazing in Conclave. Just incredible. What a beautiful movie. That was a that was a fabulous job. That was two month two months in Rome with Stanley Tucci and Isabella Roselene. Amazing. I love that movie. How do you I I would imagine that you are flooded with scripts or opportunities or or conversations about parts in so many different things and genres because you have done so many different things, different genres. No one could say that you are uh a television actor, a film actor, a stage actor, comedy, drama, um big parts, small parts. you've just done everything and at such a high level for so long. How are you able what what's what's the what's the main thing that drives you towards your decisions? Uh well, look, Jason, we're all actors. You you know perfectly well we don't do nearly as much choosing as everybody

27:23 thinks we do. You just wait. You wait for good things and good people and good writing. And it's very rare. I I I I honestly feel like all the almost all the roles that you just rattled off uh almost embarrassing. It's so complimentary, but none of them are things that I sought out or even knew about. I was somebody else's brainstorm. And it's like I remember Jonathan Demi did a little television film years ago called uh Who Am I This Time about some hapless community theater actor whom everybody kept coming to to play the the roles have always been a surprise to me.

28:06 Right. And it's a testament to your talent that that you're able to craft your your your take on the character in such a way where you're able to play it really well. You know, it's like it becomes you're like, "Okay, so this is the opportunity I'm being given this this month or this year and so I better figure out a way to play it well because it's the only part that's coming down the pike." Yeah. I mean, it's sort of an overly humble humble way. Yeah. And and and I'm game. I guess I'm best known for being ready, willing, and able, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's And that's no small thing, by the way, to And it's very cockeyed. I I just saw the premiere of a film I did with Jeffrey Rush last year called The Rule of Jenny Penn, which I urge you to look up. It's about to be released in, you know, it's a very narrow release cuz it's a very bold and crazy film, a psychological suspense thriller, okay? In which I play by far

29:01 the most outrageous character I've played since Dr. Lazardo. And he is he is the monster in a horror movie. He really is. He's a crazy guy who's out to torment Jeffrey Rush in a senior care facility in New Zealand. I mean, this is a crazy film and it is great. I read that script. You know, this wonderful young director in New Zealand named James Ashcraftoft. He said, "I've got to have you play this part." And I I was terrified of doing this. My god. But I I reminded myself it's the things that you're afraid of that. Yeah. But what what is that thing that you do? What is that moment of of of fear when you were able to turn when you read it and he says I it has to be you and you look at it and you say, "Oh, I I don't know. I don't know what this is. I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I'm maybe I'll fail do." What is the moment? What is the thing that the voice that says take the jump off the cliff? I think it

29:59 usually comes from a conversation or a Zoom call with the filmmaker. If if there's a matter of trust, you do it. And and I've been wrong before. God knows we've all been wrong before. But this like I read I read Jenny Penn and I thought this is horrific. Who isn't in the world is going to want to see this and I spoke to this guy James Ashcro for an hour and a half and he just was so persuasive. I just saw so far beyond my first reaction to the script. It's just a matter of just being wide open to trusting somebody and and being ready to take a chance because God knows there are plenty of times when it doesn't work out. But you've got to be bold. Yeah.

30:42 Does the criteria change for you now at this stage? Like I notice as I'm getting older the my decision to uh in terms of working this again goes to kind of to everybody. Do your mindset changes? The things that are important to you change? Is that true or no? Is it is there a sort of a guiding light for you? Is it I want to do something that challenges me or I want to do something that's fun or I want to do something that fits my schedule or does that shift? I mean, you know what I mean? What is the criteria? I I just think there's so many factors in every case and it always surprises you one way or another. It's basically is this going to be good? Is this going to be fun? Are people going to want to see this? And am I working is it good writing with good people? I always say the only hard acting is bad writing.

31:30 Yeah. You know, you you guys or shitty people, you know, having to like, you know, share 12 hours a day with a bunch of jerks is not and you just try to steer clear of that. Sometimes you can't you can't avoid it and you sometimes you take things for the wrong reasons and you pay for it. Yeah. How do you factor in where does where does where does family, friends, location, um all that stuff, how does that all factor in? Tell tell us a little bit about about your I don't know anything about your personal life. Tell tell me all tell me all the things you don't want to say. So sweet of you to ask, Jason. That's a huge factor. Uh I've been married 43 years to my wife Mary who's a UCLA professor of of history, economic and business history. Uh we are an an unlikely couple. You know, God never meant professors and actors to get married because our lives are so different. She is constantly having to adapt to these

32:31 crazy right angle turns I keep taking. I mean, just think being asked to play Dumbledore is contemplating literally years in England. I know. And that just disrupts everything. We We have We have two kids. I have a third by my first marriage and I have three grandkids with another on the way and you know going to England how how are we going to go back and forth their lives are very installed here uh family is hugely important to me and it's quite we are quite exclusive you know we're we're a kind of quiet little family and we get wrenched all over the place so for a long time when I was asked to do a play in New York my first in my first reaction was where are we going to live cuz we were I was so used to housesits and sublets and apartment hotels we finally just splurged and bought a beautiful New York apartment. So we find so it just just so I won't have that reaction. I can think of living a wonderful life in New York

33:37 when I'm doing a New York play and I never want to stop doing that. By the way, Sean, I have to ask you, are you going to play Oscar Levant again? Cuz I missed it. And at the Barbin and this summer in London. I will see you. I will see you. Good. I will be there. I will be there in the first weeks of of Dumbledore. And I'm And I'm doing a play uh in the West End that you able to see. It's called uh I did it at the royal court in the fall and it's moving to the west end and it's also it's called giant a play about rod doll in which play great which was a smash hit at the little royal court theater but I will finally be able to see uh you will not be disappointed it's so it's I saw little clips of it and he heard so many friends rave about it and I was so upset I'd missed it you know it's on my list of those things that I kick myself Well, that's very nice of you. I appreciate that. Yeah, come see. We'll have dinner

34:34 or whatever. He won he won a Tony for we mentioned it earlier. He won a Tony and and which gets Sean don't be watching him act embarrassed is so embarrassing because you think he's good and then he tries to play embarrassment. It's so terrible. But John, you you I mentioned you won you won a Tony your first time your first outing on Broadway which was for what? What was it for? The changing it was for the changing room in English. The changing room. Sorry. Sorry you said it. By David Story, which incidentally was first produced at the Royal Court Theater where we did where we did this play Giant. So this was full of coming full circle. But you I mean imagine coming out and your first your first production on Broadway. You win a Tony. You you're sort of you're shot out of a cannon as it were. And you must think like, okay, it's like it would be like um to try to for Tracy, it'd be like winning the Super Bowl your first

35:29 year in the NFL and just thinking, I'm going to win a Super Bowl every year, right? Right. Was there a little bit of that? Well, it was astonishing. I mean, The Changing Room, it was a play that we did. It was the American premiere of this extraordinary play about a English North of England rugby team. It takes place in their changing room. Sort of super real. I'll read for that. Yeah, it's it's a great a great thing that we did at the Long Warf Theater in in New Haven and it got a lot of national press and moved to Broadway. Until then, I had done rep for both for my dad and I had actually started directing just because nobody would hire me as an actor. I was actually doing just fine as a director.

36:16 M I I'd been hired to be the artistic director of Baltimore Center Stage and I had accepted like what what else I've got to work and I pulled I pulled out after two weeks when I was finally offered to be a member of the resident company at Long Warf. The second show was Changing Room and it was brought to Broadway and two weeks later I won a Tony. It's like I didn't sleep for about two months. I was so excited. Yeah, that's really cool. That's amazing. It really did. It's very hard to get into that inner circle. I mean, in theater in particular in New York, because nobody thinks of you as a successful actor until you're a successful actor, right?

36:59 Very well. Speaking about that, having done it so long and at such a high level, do you find yourself still teaching yourself new tricks? Are are are you you work with you work with that incredible cast like you just did in Conclave? I imagine it's impossible for you not to absorb something a little. Do you do you are you still putting little pieces on your your your your talent? Does it still change? I feel like there's there's nothing I haven't done yet. Uh I mean Third Rock itself was like flying in all directions for six years. Uh it hasn't stopped me from the terrible insecurity of uh what do people think of me in the first in the first couple of weeks of rehearsal. That helped us concentrate though. You know I you know to be honest even doing live in front of a studio audience I was nervous as hell that night. I don't know I don't know whether you guys had that experience. Yeah. But for Tracy, those

37:59 were they I know we said it already, but it Jimmy Kimmel and Norman Lear put together on ABC these recreations of old sitcoms and we did them live. Yeah, it's the one thing all four of us have in common that true. I I always brag to people that I've worked with Jason and Will. But I I would imagine though that you know you work across someone like you know Ray Fines and like how can you how do you how do you avoid not being distracted by watching somebody with that kind of talent and and and try to see what they're doing and maybe try it on a little bit for like do you do you find yourself at all being influenced by folks that you're working with? I mean, in the case of Rafe, it was just extraordinary the interaction. Uh, yeah. I I I worked, listen, over the last two years, I've done roles with Rave Fines, Olivia Coleman, and Jeffrey Rush. Lord, and and in big parts where the big intense

39:07 scenes, you get to see what they do. In each case, they give you so much. It's all it's no no performance is created by one person. It's there's a minimum of two, right? Uh because it's all about the interaction and playing off each other and and I just feel I mean thank goodness when I act with someone they're pretty familiar with me and I'm I tend to be familiar with them and if I'm not I make myself friends with them. I I just go right ahead and say come on you guys let's connect. Let's get to know each other. You have to do that. We'll be right back. And back to the show. What's the rule that people stop you for the most? And when when you're walking down the street, when you're on an airplane and you drop your license, when you What is the thing that people say to you? I would say probably Third Rock, Dexter, and and Winston Churchill.

40:07 But it tends to be the thing that is most current. Uh, I mean an awful lot of things, right? Well, get ready because the Dumbledore and the Harry Potter series, it's going to be massive. You know, this is already Can you believe this has already started and it it the deal was only set like 48 hours ago and in airports two weeks ago somehow or other people had gotten wind of this and they were stopping me in airports. Oh yeah. Uh, do you have you where are you in your process of educating yourself on on the the history of the whole cannon?

40:40 Well, I seem to be behind everybody every uh I I'm I'm just I'm halfway through the second of these seven novels. I think the overall concept of this entire reboot of Harry Potter is an entire season is devoted to a single novel. Oh, that's really cool. Have you guys read those? I I read the first one when it came out because it was I mean I was a little it was you know I wasn't a kid anymore when it came out and they were obviously they were huge with with children at that time and etc. And then so I was like well I got to read it cuz I want to see what everybody's talking about. So I read the first one and then I didn't go any further and then once I had kids uh of my own I ended up reading all of them out loud to my boys. So I and I've never seen I've never seen the films. Oh, I I've only read all the books. You're my Well, you're my audience. So, they're so well made. They are. Really quick story. So, do you know

41:39 Darlene Hunt? She's a good friend of mine. She's a writer. Brilliant. She created the Big C uh show on Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course. But anyway, she's a great writer and she her girls were reading the books uh when they were really little and she goes, "Well, we watch the movie after we read the book, right?" And she goes, "We're on book four or something like that." I go, "Why don't you come over and we'll watch the book? We'll watch the thing for you." So, she uh with your with your family. So, she's like, "Great. I'll pick up a pizza. We'll come over and blah blah blah." So, I go, "You know what? We're going to we're going to just go balls out. We're going to make butterbeer for your girls. We're going to play the music when they walk in. Scotty dressed up as Harry Potter for Halloween once.

42:15 He's going to put that stupid costume on for your girls. Like, it'll be we'll make them feel like they're coming in, right?" The thing. And so, she pulls up with a pizza dressed as Maggie Smith in the big pointy hat, you know? McGonagal with a huge cape and she's all in black and she she has a pizza in her hand and she walks in. She's been to my house a million times. She walks in and she sees this dog. She's like, "That's weird." And she walks in further. I don't remember that dog. She walks in further and this guy sitting at the kitchen table and goes, "Can I help you?" And she goes, "Isn't Sean and Scotty live here?" And he goes, "No, they're next door." So, she walked into the wrong house dressed as a witch with a pizza and the guy must have been like, "What the [ __ ] is going on?" And she may have thought that the dog was a wizard.

43:03 It was the most It was the funniest, most embarrassing story. This is another another segment of Sean's called Loser Friday nights. Hey, listen. Uh, do you Wait, John. So, speaking of uh this job, this gig that you're going to be have for many years, and we talked a little bit about it before, how are you going to do back and forth, and how are your living situations? I mean, do you have to be gone the whole year? You've been gone like three months at a time, or I honestly don't know the answer to that. Sean, is it I mean, I was over in England for eight months for the crown and barely came back. I think I may have come back once or twice. I imagine that I can come back much more.

43:44 Uh, you know, Dumbledore is he's kind of this the uh the nuclear weapon. He only goes on very very occasionally. And I think that I don't think it's going to be that hard a job. And we'll just go back and forth. Where do you like to live? Where do you like to live when you're in London? What's your favorite Well, I've lived in We We lived up in uh near Primrose Hill on the Crown. We lived near the royal court in Chelsea uh this past fall when I did the play. Um and I've had oh god they found a wonderful house for us uh in when I did the crown and we just lived like Londoners right down the street from that sounds you know. So so I mean it's it's a wonderful thing to cont contemplate. I mean the logistics are are a little bit scary. I really did have to think hard about whether to take it on. But I also thought, well, I'm about to turn 80, you know, next year. I'll turn I'll turn 80.

44:49 Is that true? That's the new 50. Absolutely. I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. You look phenomenal. People ask me for my secret sauce, but as I I'm beginning to feel like 80 and that means that if this if this indeed is a seven or eight year long job, it's a wonderful way to grow old as an actor. I mean, the the alternative is to just be hauled out once a year to play an Alzheimer patient or or, you know, play a wise old wizard. An awful lot of death scenes with weeping middle-aged children. You know, John, let me just say this. If you played an Alzheimer patient, I'm sure your performance would be unforgettable.

45:31 By the way, you did you did in Planet of the Apes. I was you were an Alzheimer's person. Sean, I love you. You I didn't I didn't have to bring that up myself. Yes, of course. Of course. Yeah. Now, is does your is your wife have to be at UCLA every day teaching? No, she she is retired from teaching. She still she still researches and writes and goes to conferences. She travels more than I do. She travels all over the world and I I'm a trailing spouse on many occasions. Is home base still Los Angeles, though? It's more LA than New York, but we've split our time between the two and now we're triangulating really with London.

46:09 What a dream. That is my absolute dream. That dream. And Mary's from Montana. We have a little cabin on a lake in northwestern Montana. And we that's kind of our runaway place which is just absolutely beautiful. So, it's great. That's great. Um, now if you leave this podcast today without me asking a funny if you have a funny theater story, these guys will kill me out of all of them. Uh, because out of all of our guests because you have such a theater history and I I love uh when things go wrong or people or somebody having a heart attack or something in the crowd. Oh, Sean loves a heart attack.

46:49 I I did think I I may have said this one to you guys before, but I don't remember. So, stop me if I have, but in high school, they were giving these they created these thespian awards at the end of the year, and they had they had this award called the gold crutch, and it goes to who'sever the clumsiest or whoever made the biggest mistakes or whatever. And that's a whole other story why I got it. But, um, so I go up to accept the golden crutch award in front of everybody. And I thought, you know what might be funny is if I trip when I get the award. So I I had it in my hand and I tripped and I knocked the tooth out of Missy Vocal Singer's mouth. And she would, my god, I swear to God, Missy Vocal Singer to this day. And um and she's standing there shaking and bleeding and I'm going, "Oh god." And the whole audience and I go, "Should I do a speech or do I take care of her?" And like a true

47:45 actor, I just gave the speech. Speech, of course. Of course. You tried to reassure everybody that this was a joke. This was fine. And she was the blood was coming down and I was like, "Oh my god." And um it was one of the most embarrassing. By the way, that's why I got the golden crud. Well, any Yeah. I guess the the the the most curious mishap I mentioned the changing room. Yeah. that I on Broadway which took place in the rugby team's changing room. 22 actors of whom cool it 15 were players and we at at a certain point we stripped completely naked got our uniforms on off into we played the match then came back at the end halfway through my character the one there was a scene that won me that Tony award I was brought off the pitch halfway through the match covered in metal mud and very very badly injured. Smashed nose, blood running down my face. I was taken off stage to an off-stage bathtub, scrubbed

48:57 all the mud off and was brought back on stage by the equipment manager. I was stark naked and wet and glistening. I he towled me down and dressed me up like I was a baby. the own a long scene in silence. All you heard was the sound of the crowd roaring off stage and at a certain point he hoisted me to my feet and hauled my underpants up these sort of pathetic briefs, you know, we were all these workingass cloths really and but it was a very moving scene, you know, was he was this character was completely out of it. I was like inert, could barely see. And one night he hoisted me up, tugged up my briefs, and my dick was sort of hanging out just out the bottom just like and in front of, you know, 800 people all in sort of stricken in silence. And I thought, how in the world am I going to do this? I'm not I'm supposed to be completely inert. And I just sort of thinking nobody would notice, I sort of

50:12 reached down and sort of flicked it inside my face. And I would say that was by far the most embarrassing. So the good one after the voting period had already laughed. I would remind you I was given a Tony award for that. No wonder what we have to do. That's John. John, we've taken up too much of your time, but I want to ask you one last question because as Jason mentioned, I imagine over the years, and I know a lot of it is what comes our way, but a lot of stuff I imagine over the year has come your way. And you mentioned Frasier on Cheers. Is there a role in in in in that you have ever regretted uh other than Frasier Crane perhaps? Is there a role that you regretted uh and and thought afterwards, oh, I should have said yes? Oh yes, there's is there are lots. Uh I ordinarily don't tell people out of regard for sure for for the ones who ended up playing it. But I I would say I must have the record for the most Tony

51:18 Awards won by actors in roles that I turned down. There are there are liter I think I'm in double figures by now. Oh wow. And there's a couple of those I do indeed completely torment me. Yeah. But but I have to think that I played a few roles and had to to great acclaim and and others have turned it down. So John John, you know what and and maybe you can look at it like this. You allowed and you gifted uh by you know passing on the genius writing and whatever that play was to allow somebody else to to have it. And what an incredible uh you know what an incredible positive thing to be a part of. You are so much a much better person than I am.

52:03 I I doubt it. You caught him on a good day, John. I eat my heart out, you know. No, but you're absolutely right. That that is a beautiful way to look at it. And and as I say, I never tell people that I play. But you you know, actually, I I got a Tony Award uh sorry, an Oscar nomination for Terms of Endearment replacing another actor. Huh. They they they had shot a couple of scenes with Deborah Winger in terms of him and they had to let him go because it just wasn't right. They just didn't feel okay about Deborah Winger having an adulterous affair. So, they came after me thinking I'm the perfect adulterer apparently.

52:44 And and I have and I have never revealed this actor's name just out of respect for him. Even though there were perfectly good reasons that I just explained why he wasn't right for the part at that point in your life, you were the sediest per. They were like, "We need somebody seedier. Let's get away." Exactly. We you know when when we when we did Third Rock, uh I we had something that I called the Lithgo rules. If anybody was ever replaced or dropped from the script, if her the part was written out or whatever, that actor would have to get two phone calls. one from me and one from our producers just to say it wasn't you. You know that we had here are the reasons why cuz you know it just has happened so many times in my experience that people are just cut out of films or dropped from or and they don't hear from anybody. They don't hear anything except from a casting director calling an agent calling an

53:41 actor and saying it didn't work out. Yeah. And that's so crushing. It is. You know, it's just because there's always 10 re 10 perfectly good reasons for some for things like like that happen that have nothing to do with the talent. Yeah. And we and we actors, we can take it. We know there's reasons for it. Yeah. So there's no but we're soft. We're soft. It is that it is that I've been well I've been you guys probably have too. I mean I've been fired from jobs before or my character was written out and I've had and then there have been people who were really kind. I've mentioned before casting director uh she not really doing it anymore. Deb Brillski and I got fired from a pilot that went to series and I heard nothing and and the show got picked up. My character was written off and I was, you know, I wasn't young. I was 32 at the time and just thought, "Oh, [ __ ] it."

54:25 And I was in feeling really shitty and I was in New York and uh and Deborah wrote me a card. I got it in the mail in my mailbox here in New York. I got a card saying it was, you know, they made a mistake. It wasn't you and blah blah blah. And it was one of the kinder things. And a few months later, she cast you in Arrested Development. Major actually a few months. And a few months later, she begged me. I was doing a play in New York and she said, "You have to come." I said, "No, I'm not interested. I'm so jaded." She goes, "You have to read for this thing, Arrested Development." Oh, [ __ ] Oh my god. But a great story and it changed my life.

54:58 Yeah. That is Anyway, is it And it happens to everyone. I'm I would say this to young actors over and over. It happens to all of us. And never it had never happened to me. But I was finally Oh my god. I I went to the premiere of a film in which I had seven lovely scenes and uh I went to the premiere I was just in New York and I saw oh there's a premiere of this film that I'm in. I I'll call them and go to the premiere. Well, I sat down and watched my first scene and it was cut in half and I thought that's too bad. Well, we'll wait for the next one. The next one was cut from the film. The next one was cut. The next one was cut. All that was left of my character was about the 30 seconds of my first scene in which I had stated the premise of this romantic comedy. But it was enough to trigger residuals. And I saw I sat there with my with my two kids and and just experienced what I'd always told actors.

56:04 It happens to all of us. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. God, it's such a wild thing, isn't it? It's so wild. Uh, John, what an absolute delight having you here today, guys. It's really I've always loved this show and I was very honored to be on it. It's so nice of you to join us. You're a real angel. Thank you so much. Well, I'll I'm sure I'll see you within the next 48 hours at something. So, yes, you'll see Jason. You'll see Jason for sure. And we should and we're going to come and see you in London. We're going to come and see Shawn. I'm going to see Oscar. Good night, Oscar. The great news. That's what I take away from today. Thanks, pal. Thank you. All right, John. Thank you. Oh, and wait, I haven't told you about my history with Bennett. I was going to go deep do a deep dive on Bennett barbecue. Yeah. Look at that.

56:52 There's the portrait by John. There's the portrait. You did that. That's my painting of Bennett. Yeah. Isn't that pretty? Wow. That's fantastic. You look more like that. You more like like the painting than ever. It's like It's like uh the portrait of Dorian Gray. I was John Muse. How are you guys connected? Wait a second. So, Bennett Barba, who works with us on on the show, who's here now, how do you and Bennett know each other? Bennett was like one of my my daughter's very good friends at Seeds UE school when they were about seven, eight, nine years old. And I I know Bennett's folks all these years. We Wait, wait, Bennett, you went to the lab school? I sure did. Before it was called Lab School. Yeah. And Yeah. And both my kids, my older kids, both my older kids went to lab school. John amazing circles within circles. But his parents I I put up for a fundraising dinner. I I offered to paint a portrait of your child and

57:49 they bid and they won. And so I painted Bennett's portrait. Although that's crazy. It took me about seven years to paint it. I It was a source of great guilt. I But I finally I finally showed up. How cool is that, Bennett? When people come over, you go, "Look at that. John Low did that very at the bottom." Bennett. Bennett, your mom and dad love you. You see, I told you I always wanted to be an artist, and it turns out it's not too late. Pretty good. It's never too late. That's amazing. Oh, thank you for that, John. That's amazing. Oh, well, thank you, Bennett. I'm glad we squeezed that in. Yes, absolutely. So good to see you, John. Okay, you too. Bye-bye now.

58:30 Byebye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye, John. Oh, man. Now, we have had some [ __ ] We have had, you know, Jason. Jason, hold up. This son of a [ __ ] Jason. Jason, hold up, man. Jason, what a what a delight. My gosh. I know. He's I feel like uh like I've known him. I feel he's a good good guy. Wow. I can't believe he's almost 80 and he's he looks younger than Jason. It's [ __ ] crazy. I know. I got to see him play that killer because I can't imagine him ever being nasty. Being angry. You can you see through it. You think it's all [ __ ] No, no, no. I don't mean it that way. I don't mean that way. I mean that he is such a versatile. He has such facility as as an actor. It's I mean he can he has played um I'm trying to think. He's played like some Raising Kane. Yeah. Yeah. Raising Kane. some scary scary characters and he's still doing theater. I mean, how about he's like, "Yeah, I'm doing Dumbledore. Oh,

59:30 I'm going to do this play though before." I'm like, I know. God doesn't doesn't slow down. It's uh very inspiring. Um but anyway, it it's great great call getting him. I love him. I love him. We were supposed to have him on before and there was a thing and it was messed up and I was so uh I was so but we had a technical error one of our episodes that didn't work out and and I was like, "Oh my god, we ever going to get him back cuz he's traveling all the time and he's working all the time and I just thought, God, I was so happy that he that we were actually able to make it happen." Yeah, he's great. Yeah. I mean, he's just I'll bet you could you could rattle off at least a dozen movies that you go, "That's right. He was in that. He's just always got some great part in some great project that you forget about. Yeah. Oh, dude. He's been in He's been in everything. Right. Right. You know.

1:00:20 Yeah. I mean, if you take them all Boy, all his films. It's the pause. It's the pause. That's what it is, Jason. is the positive. You can also hear the engine start like uh you if you take all of them and put them together and it would be such it's it's such an incredible body of work if you take them all and you come terrible. That was terrible. Smart less. Smart glass smart list is 100% organic and artisally handcrafted by Bennett Barbco, Michael Grant, Terry, and Rob Armjarf. Smart less.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "John Lithgow | SmartLess"?

Antipater (Antipot), son of Jason (Host), James & Lucinda Bruce (Guest).

What is discussed in "John Lithgow | SmartLess"?

In order: 0:00 William Shakespeare, Broadway, John Lithgow, George Will; 10:00 Positive Sean, Harvard, Harvard, All in the Family; 20:00 Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, Jeffrey Rush, The Rule of Jenny Penn, Jeffrey Rush; 30:00 Broadway, New York, New York, Dumbledore, Dumbledore; 40:00 Harry Potter, Harry Potter, Harry Potter, Dumbledore; 50:00 New York, New York, Dumbledore, Dumbledore, Bennett Barbo.

What is mentioned in this SmartLess episode?

130 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including John Lithgow, Dumbledore, Positive Sean, Antipater (Antipot), son of Jason, Dumbledore, Harry Potter. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "John Lithgow | SmartLess"?

The episode runs 1 h 1 min; the transcript is about 11,284 words in 72 timestamped sections.

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