Transcript

RZA | SmartLess

From SmartLess · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 2 min · 12,007 words · 80 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "RZA | SmartLess", an episode of SmartLess published June 16, 2025 (1 h 2 min, about 12,007 words). It mentions 121 people, works and ideas, including Rizza, Wuang Clan, One Spoon of Chocolate, Wu-Tang Clan, Shaolin.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai, Kevin Hart, Rizza, One Spoon of Chocolate
  2. – 20:00: Wuang Clan, Shaolin, Shaolin, Wu-Tang Clan
  3. – 30:00: Mike Scarelli, Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, Shaolin, Martin Shkreli
  4. – 40:00: Kill Bill, One Spoon of Chocolate, One Spoon of Chocolate, One Spoon of Chocolate
  5. – 50:00: Shaolin, Martial arts, Wuang Clan, Claudia Banks
  6. – 1:00:00: Ballet, Shaolin, Wuang Clan, A Ballet Through the Mud
  7. – 1:02:16: Michael Grant Terry, SmartLess

Notable quotes from "RZA | SmartLess"

  • No, we're still going to be digging ourselves out of a rain yesterday hole that Sean put us in. But anyway, welcome to Smart List. Smart L.
    about Sean Hayes · at
  • That's booming beats and chilling samples and influenced countless musicians. It's the one and only Rizza, you guys. Wow.
    about Rizza · at
  • In the intro that in 93 you guys released Enter the Wuang and that kind of changed that kind of changed the game. Certainly it must have changed your life in a big way. Was you…
    about Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) · at
  • Everybody's music. Is that true? Yeah. I was with So since the Marshall art world or the Shaolin philosophy was so embedded in us, we took it and applied it to our lives. So…
    about Shaolin · at
  • Concept, dude. I'm I'm so blown away by it. I'm like riveted. and you guys recorded your seventh album was Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, right? And you made one copy. Yeah. Do you guys know about this story, Sean and Jason?
    about Once Upon a Time in Shaolin · at
  • Time when he bought the album, I got to confess this because I don't talk about this a lot. At the time I shook his hand, he wasn't known yet. I met him. It was a few different…
    about Martin Shkreli · at
  • For about 6 years. and I caught the directing bug and understood what it could be. and I did my first film, of course, in 2011, came out 2012 called The Man with the Iron Fist.…
    about The Man with the Iron Fist · at
  • Leveraging some assets and we did it and we shot in Atlanta we finished it and it's going to premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival on June 8th. I'm super excited about it.
    about One Spoon of Chocolate · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Rizza — Person · Main guest · 1 mention · first at
    Primary interview subject — musician, producer, film director and founding member of the Wu‑Tang collective; drives the episode's themes of music, film, and artistic entrepreneurship.
  • Martin Shkreli — Person · Referenced antagonist / purchaser of unique album · 1 mention · first at
    Named as the controversial buyer who purchased the single‑copy Wu album and later faced legal trouble and public criticism; central to the Once Upon a Time in Shaolin story.
  • Jason Bateman — Person · Host / Co-host · 5 mentions
    Podcast co‑host who participates in the interview, asks questions and provides commentary.
    Awesome. And so will you are you going to be looking for distribution at that festival or is or already sold it? Yeah, looking for Yeah, it's going to be like the first time we show it and we're.
  • Sean Hayes — Person · Host / Co-host · 5 mentions
    One of the podcast hosts participating in the conversation and banter; asks questions and reacts to Rizza's stories.
  • Mike Scarelli — Person · Referenced buyer (misidentified name in story) · 3 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as the buyer of the one-copy Wu-Tang album; context strongly indicates this refers to Martin Shkreli (widely reported purchaser), suggesting the transcript name is a mishearing/variant.
    Everything, because we had a scheduled date of closing, is how we call it. A few months later, this guy shows up on the news as the evilst man in the world.
  • Method Man — Person · Referenced collaborator (Wu-Tang member) · 1 mention · first at
    Used as an example of RZA’s producer role within Wu-Tang’s ecosystem; also referenced via the hit “All I Need” with Mary J. Blige.
    Sort out, the producer, but what I did was keep my energy contained within my crew. So I went on to produce Method Man first album double platinum. Oh Dirty Bastard platinum…
  • Nas — Person · Referenced collaborator / touring associate · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as touring companion (Rizza wrote his film on a tour bus with Nas) and as part of Rizza's artistic network.
    And time and it didn't fully materialize until two summers ago. I'm I'm on a tour bus with Nas and we're doing a New York State of Mind. We're traveling across America and I'm just and my pen just started flowing. And so I wrote the.
  • Claudia Banks — Person · Referenced collaborator · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as a collaborator with Rizza (they released a record together); referenced in conversation about cross‑genre work.
    Many different and you've done a lot of collabs in different genres. I remember you did that. I love that record you put out with Paul Banks from Interpol Banks and Steel.
  • Kendrick Lamar — Person · Referenced artist influenced by Wu‑Tang · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as an artist who sampled or was influenced by Wu‑Tang; used to show the group's continuing cultural impact.
    Give us a name drop you know I mean Drake named the song Wu Tank Forever you know. Yeah. you know one of Kendrick's Lamar's first samples you know was a sample which I cleared for free.
  • Mary J. Blige — Person · Referenced collaborator (example in rights discussion) · 1 mention · first at
    Appears in RZA’s story about sampling/publishing splits, referencing the Method Man collaboration that became a major commercial success.
    Terrell's All I Need and it was a double platinum selling song. won the Grammy Meth Man and Mary J. Blah was the Coca-Cola commercial of the summer and all we received is 10% of the song.
  • Kevin Hart — Person · Referenced celebrity (anecdote) · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in the cold open as the reason a host traveled to Ohio for a birthday celebration; not part of the main RZA discussion.
    I was in Ohio yesterday. I just got back last night for Kevin's birthday. My friend Kevin's birthday. Oh man, what a story. You were in Ohio. Oh, do you like it there? For whose birthday? Kevin.
  • Detective Drake — Person · Referenced influenced artist · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as an example of a contemporary artist who references Wu‑Tang (name drop example).
    After getting inspiration from life yourself. But yeah, that's it's you know constantly you know some of our greatest artists they are not shy to you know give us a name drop…
  • Quentin Tarantino — Person · 7 mentions
  • Dhani Harrison — Person · 2 mentions
  • John Williams — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Sequence. So, that's the beauty of music. You think about one of our great composers John Williams, he was and it's just a few notes. Yeah. Yeah.
  • John Woo — Person · 1 mention · first at
    To be quite frank. I remember as I'm scoring movies I started sampling some music from one of John Woo's movie The Killer was one of my favorite The Killer Hard Boil. great…
  • Pete Davidson — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Island, my hometown, we renamed it Shaolin. You know what I mean? That's why you see Pete Davidson has a Shaolin tattoo. Of course, it's he's from Staten Island, but we renamed…
  • Richard Gibbs — Person · 1 mention · first at
    The second one, Richard Gibbs, me and him collaborated on the second one. The third one, I passed it over to Danny Harrison, good friend, George Harrison's son. Him and his.
  • Michael Grant Terry — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Smartless is 100% organic and artisally handcrafted by Bennett Barbco, Michael Grant, Terry, and Rob Armjarf.
  • Adam Fogelson — Person · 1 mention
  • Evan Goldberg — Person · 1 mention
  • Fred Williamson — Person · 1 mention
  • Ghostface Killah — Person · 1 mention
  • Howard Drossin — Person · 1 mention
  • Jim Jarmusch — Person · 1 mention
  • Martin Shkreli — Person · 1 mention
  • Ol' Dirty Bastard — Person · 1 mention
  • Prince Rakeem — Person · 1 mention
  • Seth Rogen — Person · 1 mention
  • Tammi Terrell — Person · 1 mention
  • Will Arnett — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

  • Enter the Wu Tang — Book · Referenced work / origin album (mis-typed type) · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as the group's groundbreaking debut album (actual entity is an album); cited as pivotal to the Wuang/Wu‑Tang origin story.
    Guys, he's a titan of everything, not just the industry. He's a founding member of the Wuang Clan, who not only shaped the genre with their groundbreaking debut album, Enter the Wuang, but he's also crafted a sound that's booming beats and.
  • Once Upon a Time in Shaolin — Book · Referenced project (album) · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced as the Wu‑Tang unique, one‑of‑a‑kind album (the group made a single copy) — used to discuss art valuation and NFTs.
  • Ghost Dog, The Way of the Samurai — Book · Referenced scored film · 1 mention · first at
    Film Rizza scored early in his career (his first film score) — used to illustrate his entry into film scoring.
    Solo albums. he's made a mark in film and TV. He's scored a lot of great films. He scored Ghost Dog, The Way of the Samurai. He scored the Both Kill Bill movies. He starred…
  • Napster — Book · Referenced service/impact (mis-typed type) · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced in discussion of music devaluation and the shift in music economics that motivated the single‑copy album idea.
    Devalued and a lot of artists were suffering because of that devaluation at this time. And for me, Napster, pardon.
  • The Last Enigma Machine — Book · Referenced collectible (mentioned in auction context) · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced by Rizza when describing a buyer's intended multi‑purchase strategy — used as example in the Once Upon a Time in Shaolin story.
    About 200 million at the time. but he was into it, right? And he told me, he said, I'm going to buy The Last Enigma machine.
  • One Spoon of Chocolate — Book · 3 mentions · first at
    Award-winning comedy Problem Mista. He's just wrapped his own film, One Spoon of Chocolate. He's published he's a published author. He released a classical album last year, a ballet through the mud, which is unbelievable.
  • Kill Bill: Volume 1 — Book · 2 mentions
  • Will & Grace — Book · 2 mentions
  • Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Solo albums. he's made a mark in film and TV. He's scored a lot of great films. He scored Ghost Dog, The Way of the Samurai. He scored the Both Kill Bill movies. He starred…
  • The Killer — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Scoring movies I started sampling some music from one of John Woo's movie The Killer was one of my favorite The Killer Hard Boil. great Yeah. great movies, great titles about a…
  • Black Caesar — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Bruce Lee Into the Dragon hits 42nd Street. In that same summer, Fred Williams, Black Caesar hits. Okay.
  • The Godfather — Book · 1 mention · first at
    And also The Godfather is in the theaters. Mean Streets, right?
  • Mean Streets — Book · 1 mention · first at
    And also The Godfather is in the theaters. Mean Streets, right?
  • Once Upon a Time in Shaolin — Book · 1 mention · first at
    By it. I'm like riveted. and you guys recorded your seventh album was Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, right? And you made one copy. Yeah. Do you guys know about this story, Sean and Jason?
  • Black Rabbit — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Shout out Paul Banks first and the whole Inter Paul family. I put an Interpol song in Black Rabbit coming out. Well, congrats, man. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And…
  • A Ballet Through Mud — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Works out. all right, before I let you go, I want to talk a little bit about a ballet through mud because you released classical album last year.
  • Spoonful of Chocolate — Book · 1 mention · first at
    And yeah, spoonful of chocolate. all the best of luck with it, man. Can't wait for it. We'll be watching. Bet.
  • Book of Revelation — Book · 1 mention
  • Enter the Dragon — Book · 1 mention
  • Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) — Book · 1 mention
  • Face blindness documentary (1980s) — Book · 1 mention
  • Flaked — Book · 1 mention
  • Hard Boiled — Book · 1 mention
  • In Rainbows — Book · 1 mention
  • Only Built 4 Cuban Linx... — Book · 1 mention
  • Problemista — Book · 1 mention
  • Shaolin vs. Wu-Tang — Book · 1 mention
  • The Man with the Iron Fists — Book · 1 mention
  • Wu-Tang Forever — Book · 1 mention
  • Wu-Tang: An American Saga — Book · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

  • Wuang Clan — Company · Collective / musical group · 6 mentions · first at
    The musical collective / brand central to Rizza's career — origin of the album Enter the Wuang and the Shaolin concept referenced throughout.
    Guys, he's a titan of everything, not just the industry. He's a founding member of the Wuang Clan, who not only shaped the genre with their groundbreaking debut album, Enter the Wuang, but he's also crafted a sound.
  • Wu Gambinos — Company · Related group / alter identity referenced · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as a name/identity used by the crew and part of the storytelling/brand concept (Cuban Links mafia album narrative).
    And my first five albums if you listen to them you they always start with a beginning. There's a theme. like there's an album we did called Cuban Links which is really a mafia…
  • Pleas Dao — Company · Owner · 1 mention · first at
    Group that purchased the unique Wu-Tang Clan album.
    What do you know? So who's got it and where is it? It was a It was a group of people called the Pleas Dao. Okay. so they have it now and they're just you know hopefully they will take the advice of showing it to the people putting it.
  • Colorado Symphony Orchestra — Company · Collaborator · 1 mention · first at
    Collaborated with the guest on his classical album project.
    Artist and resident where for 3 years I would create something to take to the Colorado Symphony Orchestra and perform. So it was during the pandemic of course that I found this…
  • Hulu — Company · Affiliated with · 4 mentions
    Platform where the guest's TV show was hosted.
  • Interpol — Company · Artist band referenced (Paul Banks affiliation) · 1 mention · first at
    Band associated with Paul Banks; referenced when discussing Paul Banks collaboration and shoutouts.
    Talk a little bit about that experience and how you guys got together. Let's shout out Paul Banks first and the whole Inter Paul family. I put an Interpol song in Black Rabbit coming out. Well, congrats, man. Yeah. Thank you. Thank.
  • Wu-Tang Clan — Company · 5 mentions
  • Morgan State College — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Know, in New York, a lot of us kind of would drive to like DC to the Howard Homecoming and or to Morgan State College, you know what I mean? Or go up to Connecticut. It was…
  • Wu Gambinos — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Their names like every like we was the first ones to change their names like the from Wuang to the Wu Gambinos and every artist started following that trend. Wow. Wow. Wow.…
  • Chinchin — Company · 1 mention · first at
    I don't know. By the way, you mentioned I really like Chinchin. Well, Chinchin went out of business. Did you see that?
  • Tribeca Film Festival — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Did it and we shot in Atlanta we finished it and it's going to premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival on June 8th. I'm super excited about it.
  • SmartLess — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Smartless is 100% organic and artisally handcrafted by Bennett Barbco, Michael Grant, Terry, and Rob Armjarf.
  • Abbot's Habit — Company · 1 mention
  • Banks & Steelz — Company · 1 mention
  • Grammy Awards — Company · 1 mention
  • PleasrDAO — Company · 1 mention
  • Radiohead — Company · 1 mention
  • Roosterfish — Company · 1 mention
  • Turing Pharmaceuticals — Company · 1 mention
  • Universal Pictures — Company · 1 mention
  • Warner Bros. — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

  • One Spoon of Chocolate — Product · Film (film project / product of Rizza) · 3 mentions · first at
    Rizza's self‑financed directorial film discussed extensively — production history, festival premiere plans (Tribeca), and creative process.
  • Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) — Product · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    Groundbreaking debut album by Wu-Tang Clan that influenced the music industry.
  • One Spoon of Chocolate — Product · Secondary owned · 4 mentions · first at
    Guest's upcoming film project discussed as his latest creative endeavor.
    Leveraging some assets and we did it and we shot in Atlanta we finished it and it's going to premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival on June 8th. I'm super excited about it.
  • The Man with the Iron Fist — Product · Film (directorial credit) · 2 mentions · first at
    Rizza's earlier directorial film (2012) — used to establish his directing career and trajectory.
  • A Ballet Through the Mud — Product · Secondary owned · 2 mentions · first at
    Guest's classical album project, showcasing his versatility as an artist.
    One Spoon of Chocolate. He's published he's a published author. He released a classical album last year, a ballet through the mud, which is unbelievable.
  • Napster — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Devalued and a lot of artists were suffering because of that devaluation at this time. And for me, Napster, pardon.
  • Tequila — Product · 1 mention · first at
    And so we would just play chess. At the time he, he did drink tequila. we met at a tequila bar.
  • Daraprim — Product · 1 mention
  • New York State of Mind Tour — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

  • Shaolin — Concept · Core concept / cultural framing · 8 mentions · first at
    Used by Rizza to describe the Wu‑Tang aesthetic and philosophy (Staten Island rebranded as 'Shaolin' by the group); central to his artistic identity and many stories in the episode.
  • Jazz — Concept · Referenced musical genre · 3 mentions
    Mentioned briefly as a musical concept in passing when discussing instruments and influences.
    I play, I'm not going to, I'm a producer, so producers a lot technology, but know I play guitar, drums, of course, guitar, less bass.
  • Ballet — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
    One Spoon of Chocolate. He's published he's a published author. He released a classical album last year, a ballet through the mud, which is unbelievable.
  • Abbott — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
    Shaolin they had the monks but the leader of the monks was called the abbott. And so my Wuang brothers called me the abbott. You know what I mean? So now it's so as the Abbott…
  • Shaolin philosophy — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Everybody's music. Is that true? Yeah. I was with So since the Marshall art world or the Shaolin philosophy was so embedded in us, we took it and applied it to our lives. So…
  • Martial arts — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    What about martial arts for you? Are you an accomplished martial artist or is there any crossover there? That's a big word.
  • Howard Homecoming — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Album play like a movie. Oh, wow. in New York, a lot of us kind of would drive to like DC to the Howard Homecoming and or to Morgan State College, you know what I mean? Or go…
  • Abbott (Shaolin) — Concept · 1 mention
  • Chess — Concept · 1 mention
  • Copyright law (music) — Concept · 1 mention
  • Daoism (Taoism) — Concept · 1 mention
  • Face blindness (Prosopagnosia) — Concept · 1 mention
  • Interpolation (music) — Concept · 1 mention
  • NFT (Non-Fungible Token) — Concept · 1 mention
  • Prosopagnosia — Concept · 1 mention
  • Sampling (music) — Concept · 1 mention
  • Zen — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

  • Tribeca Film Festival — Event · Festival premiere / venue · 1 mention · first at
    Event where Rizza plans to premiere One Spoon of Chocolate; context for distribution and exposure.
    Leveraging some assets and we did it and we shot in Atlanta we finished it and it's going to premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival on June 8th. I'm super excited about it.
  • Hurricane Sandy — Event · Contextual reference · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced as a real‑world event that impacted the release/box office performance of Rizza's film The Man with the Iron Fist.
    Universal gave me the money to make the movie and they was when it came out the first week, I think Hurricane Sandy hit and so to me, so the East Coast was kind of [ __ ] up for me.
  • Tribeca — Event · Short reference to festival · 1 mention · first at
    Alternate mention of the Tribeca Film Festival (same as Tribeca Film Festival entity).
    Leveraging some assets and we did it and we shot in Atlanta we finished it and it's going to premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival on June 8th. I'm super excited about it.
  • Shaolin — Place · 5 mentions · first at
    Everybody's music. Is that true? Yeah. I was with So since the Marshall art world or the Shaolin philosophy was so embedded in us, we took it and applied it to our lives. So…
  • Los Angeles — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Was my that was my question cuz I'm I'm a I'm I'm a dumb soft white guy from Los Angeles and I I not know about well, I'm No, that's very true. That's a really description of you. I'm not I'm not, as the kids say, I'm not down. I'm not hip.
  • Staten Island — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Or the Shaolin philosophy was so embedded in us, we took it and applied it to our lives. So for instance, Staten Island, my hometown, we renamed it Shaolin. You know what I…
  • Tasmania — Place · 1 mention · first at
    In museums and that Yeah. Didn't they do an exhibit or something? They took it to somewhere like Tasmania or something. Is that fair? Yeah. They took it to Tasmania and…
  • Atlanta — Place · 1 mention · first at
    By self finance from you know leveraging some assets and we did it and we shot in Atlanta we finished it and it's going to premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival on June 8th. I'm super excited about it.
  • Abbott Kinney Boulevard — Place · 1 mention
  • Shaolin Temple — Place · 1 mention

Media & podcasts

  • Wu-Tang Clan — Character · Referenced group (labeling anomaly in input) · 1 mention · first at
    Represents the real world hip‑hop collective referenced throughout. Input labeled it as fictional_character; treated here as the music collective.
    Guys, he's a titan of everything, not just the industry. He's a founding member of the Wuang Clan, who not only shaped the genre with their groundbreaking debut album, Enter the Wuang, but he's also crafted a sound that's booming beats and.
  • Kill Bill — Media · Referenced work · 4 mentions · first at
    Films Rizza contributed music to — used as a credential and topic of discussion about scoring and cinematic influence.
    Film and TV. He's scored a lot of great films. He scored Ghost Dog, The Way of the Samurai. He scored the Both Kill Bill movies. He starred last year in a award-winning comedy…
  • Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai — Media · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at
    First film scored by the guest, marking his entry into film scoring.
    Solo albums. he's made a mark in film and TV. He's scored a lot of great films. He scored Ghost Dog, The Way of the Samurai. He scored the Both Kill Bill movies. He starred…

Full transcript with timestamps

All right. So guys, uh, this is the start and we need a good solid cold open. Anybody have any interesting or funny something to say? Get our I get our listener excited to or surprise them like Yeah. Well, it was surprising that it rained a lot yesterday. But no, it will anything. Can you help? No, we're still going to be digging ourselves out of a rain yesterday hole that Sean put us in. But anyway, welcome to Smart List. Smart L smart.

Oh, hi. Oh, hi. That's OJ. I'm wearing a hat that says Ohigh. It was in I was I told you guys last time. Um I was in Ohio yesterday. I just got back last night for Kevin's birthday. My friend Kevin's birthday. Oh man, what a story. You were in Ohio. Oh, do you like it there? For whose birthday? Kevin Harts. Kevin Kevin Newat. It's a friend of He doesn't pay attention. He doesn't remember. You mentioned Kevin and Carrie a million times. He has still no idea who they are. That's right. You've met them. Well, why would I know who they are? Cuz you sat and talked with Kevin for a few hours. You talked to him for a few hours, but he's not working at Netflix.

You know how many people you guys have sat and talked to for hours that you have no idea who they are? You can't remember that. JB, I remember there used to be so many years ago. I won't say the gender, but there were cuz I don't want to give it away, but there was somebody who you kept introducing yourself to over years and finally they got mad at you and you were like, "Hey, f you." Really? You think I [ __ ] remember it? Do you remember that? No. And eventually you're like, "I don't [ __ ] know you." Well, I can't. I mean, I'm certainly not unique to being, you know, bad at remembering names. No, no, no. You're not unique. No, no, no. The same. Same. Right. But well, you're great at dates. You're incredible at dates. I'm good at dates, but then the names and stuff. No, I I Yeah, dates is weird. It's uh I don't know what that is. And also, you know, and I have particular trouble like, you know, guys

don't typically change their look often. Present company excluded, right? Um, but uh, so it it's not difficult for me to remember a dude's face over the course of a few years. I've had like two hairds my whole life. Um, but you know, women get to change the color of their hair all the time and the cut of their hair and they accessorize. You've got a few hair don'ts, too. I mean, let's be honest. Oh, yeah. They're they're all online. Enjoy. It is the one of the worst things I ever did was um we we years and years and years ago we remodeled our house and I walk out the front door and there's this girl running. I may have said this already.

There's this girl running down the sidewalk right towards me jogging and she goes, "Hey Sean." I'm like, "Hey." And she goes, "You finished?" Meaning to the house? And I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. How would how would they even know I was remodeling?" And she goes, "I'd love to see it sometime." And I'm like, "Wait a minute. What? There's just this girl jogging randomly." And I'm like, "Do I know you?" And she goes, "It's Julia, your neighbor for the past 20 years." How bad did you feel? And I said, I said, "Jay," I go, "The worst thing you could ever come back with," I said, which was, "Did you change your hair?"

It was just terrible. It was horrible. Last recovery when I was in New York and I was riding a bike through the village and I'm riding along. This girl goes, "Will, you shooting additional photography for Flake?" No. And I I go and I'm riding F you, bro. And I'm riding my bike through the village and this girl goes, "Will I look over and she goes, "Hey." And so I turn over I like I steer the bike over to her. I go, "Hey, what's going on?" I'm like, "Who?" And then she goes I get right up closer. She goes, "You don't know me." And I go, "Yeah, love the show." Yeah. And so I go, "Okay, see you later." So then I go by, right? So then I go and I and it's a city bike and I park it in the thing and I'm walking down a block later. I'm walking by and there's this girl and guy sitting outside this place and she's wearing a baseball c. She looks up at me and she goes kind of waves like, "Hi."

And I go, "Hey." And I keep going. I get home, there's a text, and it's this friend of mine, Emily, and she goes, "Did you not know that was me?" So I thought I recognized the person who was a stranger, and the person I knew, I blew off. So, is it just the worst? It's face blindness. It's face blindness. I swear I have it. Or are we just rude dicks or are we just getting old and we're losing our minds? I think I've always been like I think it's all of it. Yeah, I think it's all a wicked combination of all of it. Yeah, but I I I I terrible. I I Yo, you're the worst at What's the subject?

Yeah. Can we fill in the blank? Yeah. Can we Let me go first. Can I go blanket on that? You're just I kind of think everybody looks the same. I swear I think I have a little bit of it like face blindness. I really do. No, but that's a real thing. I know one person that that that's like that, right? I think I think we're talking the same person. Yeah. Oh, and I said to Yeah, I'm blanking on their face. That wonderful will. Okay, listen listen listen. Wait, wait. But I asked that guy really quick. I asked that guy. I was like, "So, if I walk out of the room and come back, cuz he he has like been diagnosed with space blindness." I go, "If I walk out of the room and come back in, you won't know it's me." He's like, "No."

I'm like, "Really?" And this guy's making more six figures a year. I know. By the way, by the way, again, not to go too far, there is a documentary that came out in the 80s about this guy in England who had a memory of 7 seconds. And it's poor fellow. It's he got he got he he had an injury, head injury, and it's crazy. And his wife would like she he eventually lived on his own, had to be taken care of. But she would go out of the room, he'd come in, she'd come in, she'd go he'd go, "Hi." Oh my god. He'd hug her, hug her, hug her. She'd go to make a cup of tea. She comes back at Hello. Oh, the most annoying man to ever live with. She was the only person that he remembered. So, it's You can It's on YouTube. It's [ __ ] crazy. Can you imagine having face blindness and the 7-second memory? Dude, it's the craziest craziest thing ever. Anyway, that's such a All right, speaking about crazy, we

have a crazy talented guest on the on the show today. I've been looking forward to having this guest for so long. He uh this person is he's a a true he's a visionary. He he's he's done everything in music and film. He's ventured into horror core. He's produced solo albums. Uh he's made a mark in in film and TV. He's scored a lot of great films. He scored uh Ghost Dog, The Way of the Samurai. He scored the Both Kill Bill movies. He starred last year in a award-winning uh uh comedy uh Problem Mista. He's just wrapped his own film, One Spoon of Chocolate. He's published he's a published author. He he released a a classical album last year, a ballet through the mud, which is unbelievable.

Uh guys, he's a titan of of everything, not just the industry. He's a founding member of the Wuang Clan, who not only shaped the genre with their groundbreaking debut album, Enter the Wuang, but he's also crafted a sound that's uh, you know, booming beats and chilling samples and influenced countless musicians. It's the one and only Rizza, you guys. Wow. Whoa. I guess I can take off my camera here. There it is. Oh boy. John's going to be thrilled. This is so cool. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. Good afternoon.

I'm actually in on the East Coast, so it's good afternoon. Oh yeah. Good afternoon. Oh man, thank you for joining us today. What an absolute thrill to have you on the show today, man. My pleasure. And I will start off by saying I have a great memory. All right. Yeah, we're the same age. Exactly. Will you will you remember for me right now what what it was like to score both Kill Bills? I mean, that's like Was that Was that the Was it Is that the only film that you the films that you've scored? No, that was um No, I went on to score um maybe a dozen after that and some TV shows, etc. Do you love that? Yeah, scoring is scoring is the ultimate uh the ult one of the ultimate expressions of art, right? You're trying to tell a story and compliment a story with your music. Yes. I love it. Yeah. But I but they but sometimes the cues have to only like be 10 20 30 seconds or like do do you feel like you're like boxed in with

that? No. I think to be quite frank, you know, you may have a quue that's just a symbol. That's your cue, right? But you may have one that's like, you know, that's a whole nutcracker sweet. You know what I mean? Whole big sequence. So, I mean, that's the beauty of music. You think about uh I mean, one of our great composers uh John Williams, he was and it's just a few notes. Yeah. Yeah. Was so was was Ghost Dog uh Way of the Samurai. Was that your first one that you did? Yeah. So, Jun brought me in to score that film. I never scored a film before. I was pretty I didn't know what it was to be honest with you.

I didn't know the when you make a movie, you got to edit, you got to do all these things, right? And Jim used to want the music and he'd be like, you know, come to the editing room, which is basically the editing is a 9 to5 job, maybe a 9 to 8. Yeah. I'd be coming like midnight, you know what I mean? Everybody be gone. But at those days, we had the music on a DAT. So I would just have it on the DAT player pull up to the place and and give him the dats and he'll be like like you know it's midnight. I'm well you know here here it is. The um Yeah. Why is that? Why why is it historically you know music studio sessions late late in the night? What is that? I don't understand musicians. Yeah. Yeah. You guys have like a different clock. Yeah.

We we Yeah. I mean my musician clock was ridiculous. I mean it was embarrassing to be quite frank. I remember uh as I'm scoring movies I started sampling some music from one of John Woo's movie The Killer was one of my favorite The Killer Hard Boil. great uh Yeah. great movies, great titles about a great director, John Woo. Yeah. And and we we became friends and he came to New York and he's like, you know, I want to have let's have dinner. And uh I said, cool, let's have dinner. It's all right, you know, meet you at the restaurant, you know, 6:30 in Manhattan. And at the time, I was in a studio that was like an hour away and I just got caught up in the studio. And then it's like 9:00. They're like, "Wait, you supposed to be at dinner with John?"

I'm like, "Okay." Yeah. you kind of get sucked into it and it's like this like you it Yeah, my husband Scotty, he he also composes scores and stuff for stuff and he'll be back there and like 8 hours fly by. You don't even know if you know it. But John was such a gentleman um Sean that I got there around 11 and he he held the restaurant open and we sat down and had a great meal. Oh, that's amazing. And he gave me some wisdom about time. Well, it's I I was going to say some wisdom about time. I like that. time, which is so funny cuz all all music is in time is all time and we're all Exactly. We're all late. So So it's funny uh you know Rizzen when I when I think about it cuz I was I was asking about the first film that you scored which was which was uh Ghost Dog and I was going to say how did you get into it? But it makes sense because you mentioned like John Woos films being a huge influence. I mean there is a

cinematic influence in the Wuang music right? I mean that's part of your origin story. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, my my my aspirations at the time of making music was trying to make uh a movie, trying to make my album play like a movie. Oh, wow. You know, in New York, a lot of us kind of would drive to like DC to the Howard Homecoming and or to Morgan State College, you know what I mean? Or go up to Connecticut. It was like that's the weekend thing to do, right? Um that's where the chicks are at. Yeah. and and and and and my my idea was to make people who are driving that journey to listen to my music and to get a movie in their head and pick up some game, pick up some slang, pick up some visions. Um so I was always trying to make movies and my first five albums if you listen to them you they always start with a a beginning. There's a theme. Um like there's an album we did called Cuban

Links which is really a mafia movie. It starts off with three guys. One for you, one for me. One guy cheating him, right? He's like, you know, the whole thing, one for you, one for me, two for you, one, two for me, three. Right. Right. Right. Right. And and it goes on and and the way the album plays out, it's like these guys are going to pull a heist. Somebody's going to die like Once Upon a Time in America. uh the other two guys going to go grab the rest of the crew, the Woo Gambinos, bring them back and then pull a bigger heist for 2 million and everybody going to ride off into the sunset. And that album was so influential that hip-hop began to change their names like every like we was the first ones to change their names like the from Wuang to the Wu Gambinos and every artist started following that trend. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's so cool. I mean, so you guys, so I mentioned in the in the intro that uh in 93 you guys

released uh Enter the Wuang and that kind of changed that kind of changed the game. Certainly it must have changed your life in a big way. Was you had already been making music for years, right, with those guys? Yeah. But that but that was the first big release that went kind of crazy. Must have what was that experience like? Yeah, it was um I had tried to enter the industry before um just as a solo artist. uh Prince Rock where I came, you know, sold about 10,000 records, got a couple of uh you know, couple of shows and couple of groupies, right? That was at that age, 19 years old, that's bad start, but Yeah. Right. All right. Couldn't pay my rent though. All right. So, but I went back to my crew and I was just like, you know, we had this thing that in the neighborhood called the Wu Tang Sling and we was all big kung fu movie lovers and I just caught an inspiration that um that we should take with our childhood

love uh take the concept of Asian cinema uh from Hong Kong or from Japan. And since our lyrics are, you know, from your mouth and and your mouth is like a sword, right? It says that in the book of Revelations. It says, "Out of the mouth comes the double-edged sword." So, I was like, "If if we take our tongue and make it our sword, and the best sword style ever filmed was the Wuang style, and we become the Wuang Clan, we could go into the industry and chop everybody heads off." You know, my brother was like, "Sounds good to me." Yeah. Well, that was that was my that was my my question cuz I'm I'm a I'm I'm a dumb a dumb soft white guy from Los Angeles and I I I I not know about well, you know, I'm No, that's very true. That's a really description of you. I'm not I'm not, as the kids say, I'm not down. I'm not hip to it all. And so I'm I'm not clear on a uh Asian cinema, on on kung fu, on on

the genesis of the title of the band and stuff. So I was I was going to ask you about that. How how so how did your love of kung fu and and Asian films and how does that how does that start? Cuz you wouldn't necessarily put hiphop with Asian cinema in in the same uh group, right? Typically, I mean, you kind of have to if you think about it, right? If you go back into hip-hop, according to hip-hop history, it says it started in 1973 in that summer. But in that same summer, Bruce Lee Into the Dragon hits 42nd Street. In that same summer, um, Fred Williams, uh, Black Caesar hits. Okay.

And also The Godfather is in the theaters. Um, uh, Mean Streets, right? So, the movie, the C, the art of the cinema is still cohesive with the art of the music. There's actually a a a thread because most of us are in those theaters. Wow. And then when we go back to our neighborhoods, the things that we are gaining from cinema is finding its way into our art. If you look at some of the early break dance moves, you'll see that some of those moves were seen in a in a martial art film and then of course took it to another level. Yeah, that's that's amazing. I didn't think of that.

That's so true. Of course you didn't think of it. You're dumb. You're a lot. You know, dude, you don't know anything. Listen to learn. Okay. Um that is true. Break dancing is Yeah. You could you could you could duck a lot of uh a lot of a lot of uh a lot of punches. Yeah. And kicks down there on the floor. So then so then so so that makes sense. And so then you guys do you you produce and you form Wuang and you and you release some records and just a huge like massively influential. But also what's interesting to me is and and tell these guys and educate all of us a little bit about not only were you guys doing Wuang but then is you're doing I mean you're doing all sorts of solo projects under a bunch of different names right and you me mentioned Prince Kim which was your uh that you released before but also some stuff after right as well and also and but also other guys from Wuang you produce their stuff like oftentimes

people leave a band and go and do something on their own on their own on their own but you were still producing everybody's music. Is that true? Yeah. I was with So since the Marshall art world or the Shaolin philosophy was so embedded in us, we took it and applied it to our lives. So for instance, Staten Island, uh, my hometown, we renamed it Shaolin. You know what I mean? That's why you see Pete Davidson has a Shaolin tattoo. Of course, it's he's from Staten Island, but we renamed it Shaolin. So Shaolin is considered the temple of uh the well they would say from which all martial art springs from.

Uh it's the strongest philosophy place that even before Zen uh made it to Japan it was developed in Shaolin. And so in Shaolin they had uh the monks but the leader the leader of the monks was called the abbott. And so my Wuang brothers called me the abbott. You know what I mean? So now it's so as the Abbott, it's my job to make the best decisions, the best direction of which way we go. Um, and as the producer, I went on to produce, of course, the first album, 36 Chambers, it went platinum. So going platinum, of course, is a is a bong bong, right? So So we, so then after that, of course, I became uh a sort out, the producer, but what I did was keep my energy contained within my crew. So I went on to produce Method Man first album double platinum platinum. Oh Dirty Bastard platinum, Jiza platinum, Gold Space platinum. So that's unbelievable. Yeah. So I might have did about seven platinum albums

back to back. I don't think too many people probably did that. So that's a blessing. But it was it was it was it was us. It was a contained energy. You know what I mean? Yeah. I remember talking to Seth Rogan um when they had the when they had the breakout. He, you know, he made a joke cuz he him and his crew who were listeners of the Wuang clan, they called themselves the Juang clan. He said and he said he said they all live together and him and Evan and everybody they actually look took that concept and did the same thing and continue hit after hit. Uh, and I think that's a that's a great thing for any group of artists is if you could combine that art together and then direct it as a brand, uh, you could you will increase your fan base, of course, but also give each one of you a chance to go through the same tunnel. That's so cool. I love that.

There's a sort of like sort of like a you you harness the power of the collective a little bit and you don't let it dissipate. You kind of keep it and and you all kind of move and and then all all boats rise, right? You know what I mean? And what would we call our little clan here? Like the Chinching clan? I don't know. By the way, you mentioned I really like Chinchin. Well, Chinchin went out of business. Did you see that? Well, no. They just shut down the shut down the one. They did. They shut down the one in Beverly Hills. Get through the interview and Oh my god. Get your sodium somewhere else. Don't worry about it man.

And we will be right back. And now back to the show. So you talk about Shaolin. I didn't know any of that. That is such a cool concept, dude. I I'm I'm so blown away by it. I'm like riveted. Uh and and you guys recorded your seventh album was Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, right? And you made one copy. Yeah. Do you guys know about this story, Sean and Jason? Do you know about this? No. No. No. Can you can you tell these guys a little bit about because it's one of the coolest stories in art history. Forget music that was a controversial purchase of it.

Correct. I don't know this. I don't know this. Yes. A very controversial purchase. Please tell me. Will you tell these guys what happened, what that was about, and why you did it all? Okay. first, you know, once streaming took over music, uh, you know, music went from being worth, uh, two cent a record spend on your radio to being worth 0000.4. Okay. Sure. And so, so it was totally devalued and a lot of artists were suffering because of that devaluation at this time. And for me, Napster, pardon. Yeah. Napster. If you think about NASA, that was the foundation of he'll bark out moments of knowledge. Yeah. You're like you're like my grandmother in the other room and just NASA. Wait, I know that.

But anyway, the first one. Yeah. After everything got devalued, we tried to figure out a way to bring value back to music and the idea was music is art and it should be treated as such. And it's it's it's not something that it's not just a privilege, right? Because the creation of it is such a process, right? For a Wuang album to make it, you got to get nine to 20 people together, the engineers, and it's an endeavor like a film, right? It it cost a lot of money, right, to make it. And then the goal is to sell it so you could continue to make it again. You know what I mean? Yeah. So anyway, it got so devalued that we was like, well, let's make an album that we'll make one single copy. Treat it like it's a Mona Lisa or an Egyptian scepter, something like that. It belong in the museum. And the only way that you can now get it, you have to go to it.

You have to go see amazing. That's cool. And and we auctioned it. Um the funny thing is when we auctioned it, um we auctioned it to a guy named uh uh Mike Scarelli. Yeah. Now, Scarelli, at the time when he bought the album, I got to confess this because I don't talk about this a lot. At the time I shook his hand, he wasn't known yet. Like, I met him. It was a few different so, you know, billionaires that was going to buy this album from this Sbees Powe auction type of thing. And he was probably the the poorest amongst them. He only worth about 200 million at the time. Uh, but he was into it, right? And he told me, he said, "I'm going to buy The Last Enigma machine.

I'm going to buy the Turning Papers and I'm going to buy your single album all in one week. And I'm going to take this and I'm going to create something that's going to for him. He's going to become like a new super villain or something." He didn't say villain though, but he was like, he's going to take these elements and he's going to create something crazy. And he went and formed this company, the Turning Company, etc., etc. and I shook hands on them. In that same company, a few months later, before we announced uh the purchase and everything, because we had a a scheduled date of closing, is how we call it. A few months later, this guy shows up on the news as the evilst man in the world.

He he took the price of a of a medicine that was maybe $15 a pill. that guy that guy. And he and he and he and he turned it to $2,000 $4,000 pill and and the saddest thing about it was that this pill uh was for for for our citizens who have HIV, right? It was a dire need for this pill for them. And so basically he was uh you know burning down a village that I mean you could put it to that analogy that he's burning down villages by this price gouging. Um but he had already purchased the album. So now Yeah. So now so now I have to you know you know he sells it and then I did say this to him though. I said listen his name was Martin. Screw that. I said listen Martin you doing a lot of bad things bro. The Wu Tang is good. Okay, if I was you, I would take this album and do something good with it. Meaning, he could give it to the people. It can't be sold because we made a 88year non-commercialization

law for it. So, he can't sell it, right? He can't like make mass produce. I know. It's so cool. That is amazing. But he didn't he didn't decide to do nothing good. He went he doubled down on his on his darkness and he got into a big fight with Ghostface Killer and all the other Wu Tank brothers and he and then he you know he took Hillary's hair and whatever. He just he just went all the way down until he went to jail and then the government seized the album. Mhm. Good. And they kept it. What? And then so he paid 2 million for the album. So at the time it was the most expensive album in history. Yeah. For sure. But when he went to jail, the government now needed to pay all of his, you know, his leans or default judgments, whatever he had on him. And so the government now gets to auction this album as a personal asset of his. Okay. All right. And they auction it and someone buys it for $4

million. What? No way. Okay. Okay. Yeah. What do you know? So who's got it and where is it? It was a It was a group of people called the Pleas Dao. Okay. Um um so they have it now and they're just you know hopefully they will take the advice of showing it to the people putting it in museums and that Yeah. Didn't they do an exhibit or something? They took it to somewhere like like Tasmania or something. Is that fair? Yeah. They took it to Tasmania and and exhibited. You're right. Yeah. And people flew in for that. So has the public been able to hear it? So far maybe about 600 people have heard it. Dude, that's amazing.

like how do you how do you that's an incredible story. How do you how do you protect um the person who owns it from copying it and kind of I don't know it just got leaked or you know they and then they act you know but there's a contract there's a uh it's it's this this particular album is on a macro level considered the first NFT. Ah very good I understand. So if you understand Yeah. So that's so that's the situation with it. And uh so it's like a it's like a smart contract built in. You know what I mean? And this is your idea.

I mean it's such an incredible forwardinking idea. It's like I know it's brilliant. Me and my and my student uh Silver Rings I won't take all the credit. Um it we it was a combination of ideas that led to it. So yeah. And would you ever do it again? Um I don't know. What about what about what about what about what Radio Head didn't radio head did something was where they made an album and they put it up on the internet for free. Basically said pay whatever you want. Um and that kind of freedom made me I I think I ended up paying like 50 bucks for it or something like that.

Like just like if you tell me I don't have to do anything I knew that. That was the perfect thing. You're the perfect sucker, man. Exactly. You know what I mean? That's why your nickname is is DJ Saka Dingbat. Uh hey uh uh I mean God that is such a You're right, Sean. Like you said, it's so forward thinking and you've I mean you constantly have looked for different ways to express yourself as an artist and kind of do things outside the box. You've acted in I was looking it up. I mean I don't know 50 things, 60 things as an actor. You you just tell us a little bit about your film that's coming out that you directed. Thank you. Um, first let me say this to y'all gentlemen. First of all, Jason, I'm big fan of yours your your your timing, your your your style. I just love your style. I watch I watch seen almost everything you do and so just want to let you know that you got a fan on the side this side of the

microphone. Thank you, pal. Um, and for myself, you know, I I got a chance to study underneath uh Quinton Tarantino for about 6 years. Uh, and I caught the directing bug and understood what it could be. Uh, and I did my first film, of course, in uh, 2011, uh, came out 2012 called The Man with the Iron Fist. Mhm. And I realized that directing movies is actually the epitome of expression art because you have to be lyrical in the words. Uh um colorful in the production design and costume design. Uh music is a part of it. uh the storytelling element, the the energy of getting other people to portray a idea that's written and to and and describe it. It's like the total use of my brain for me. Um and so I became in love with it and now uh this is my fourth my fourth directorial film. It's called One Spoon of Chocolate. Wait, this is your fourth film? This is my fourth one.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. and and this one um uh probably my boldest one, pretty bold to kind of take a chance like this. Um and it it it it took 13 years to get to this point. Like once I finished Man with the Iron Fist, uh I want like so you know, Universal gave me the money to make the movie and uh they was like, you know, when it came out the first week, I think Hurricane Sandy hit and so to me, so the East Coast was kind of [ __ ] up for me. Yeah. And so, uh, so I didn't hit the numbers we wanted to hit. I think we probably ended up around 30 million total in box office on a Sorry to talk numbers. That's what's going to kind of We ended up about 30 million total in box office on a movie that cost about 17 million, right? Pretty good. Not Well, not for Universal. For Universal, that's I paid the lights that that day. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But um I waited till to it recouped before I went back and sat down with the executive who was in charge uh of of gave me the green light which is uh Mr. Adam Ferguson. And uh sure and I sat down and he said you okay you know you broke me you did cool. Okay nobody's over here you know we're not jumping up and down we sad right? Um I said okay I got it now I like to try another one. And so he said okay well this let me let me hear some ideas. and I pitched the ideas and one of them was one spoon of chocolate. the other ones didn't really gravitate, but he said, "That one seems like something you could chase." And then I started writing it and I got writer's block at page 40. And it took almost, you know, this this will be 13 years from the day of of me starting it to it now being available.

And it just kept taking time and time and time and it didn't fully materialize until uh two summers ago. I'm I'm on a tour bus with Nas and we're doing a New York State of Mind. We're traveling across America and I'm just and my pen just started flowing. And so I wrote the whole movie. Uh my wife was right beside me just sitting right there. And I, you know, we got home and I said, "Okay, I got a movie written and we had a chance to uh you know, we had we had some good economics uh blessings in our lives." And so I said, "Well, she was looking at another house cuz she likes to get nice houses and [ __ ] That's kind of a thing.

And so I said, "Well, I wrote the movie. You want to get another house or you want to make a movie?" Yeah. And she said, "Well, what do you want to do?" I said, "To be honest, I really want to make make a movie like with no inter with no interruptions, like just go ahead and do it." And she said, "Okay." She gave me the green light. She's the producer of the film. Wow. So me and my wife financed. Yeah. So So she's Yeah. by self self finance from you know leveraging some assets and um and we we did it and we shot in Atlanta we uh finished it and it's going to premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival uh on June 8th. I'm super excited about it.

Awesome. And so will you are you going to be looking for distribution at that festival or is or already sold it? Yeah, looking for Yeah, it's going to be like the first time we show it and we're looking for distribution. So, you know, I hate to use the word hopefully, but uh hopefully. What's it about? What was what was the what was the pitch you gave to Adam? And did it and did it remain the same once you got past the the page 40 or did it did it morph into something else? You know what? It actually I guess without giving a spoiler. Yeah. It morphed into 200 pages. Oh, wow.

Exactly. For the listener, usually a movie script is about 110. Yeah. It morphed about 200 pages and I think I got about 110 pages that we'll see when we look at this thing. Yeah, that's amazing. And now Kill Bill was famously uh what 2 something and so he had to split it up into two parts. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I actually read the the the 220 page uh kill Bill. Yeah. Which which like I said so Tarantino is my uh my professor. So, I call him the god my godfather of film. He's incredible. Love to have you on the show, Quinton, if you're listening. He's got to come. He got to come. He's got to. Um, but now um I'm always amazed when people like us, meaning in that are artists are in the entertainment business or whatever that create the stuff like your films and music and everything else and us, TV shows, films, whatever we do. and that at some point in your life you became aware of the business side of it and

what was that point and who or who was that person where you like because when I was on the set of Will and Grace a TV show I did a long time ago yeah sure something hey a masterpiece a masterpiece we um after it took about five six seasons for me to kind of look for me to for me to look around and I was kind of like wait a minute I was really young and I was like how did this all happen because I was just an actor who memorized my lines and showed up and went home and then I was like wait how did this come together like whose idea and then the phone call then I got really interested I was really young I I I got interested in in the business side of how to produce something and make something so what was that moment for you and or or was there a person you're like wait a minute how did they do that and then it kind snowballed from there.

Yeah, I think it was a couple of points for me. You know, first in music of course, right? As a producer, um, you know, you could you could control, let's just say, like I said, making an album, maybe it's 20 people. Mhm. Right. But when I was composing films, the thing with Kill Bill is that I wasn't No, I wasn't going to be the composer. Let me just be clear. Me and Quinn just used to watch movies together. and he gave me that script. And when I read the script of Kill Bill, I it was just such an amazing script. I just said, "Yo, anything you may need from me, I'm here." I said, "Also, I would love to see how you going to bring this to life." Right. At the time, we was just buddies, film buddies. And he was like, "Yeah, sure. You know, if you show up on set, you know, you go be the guy, the eyes and ears behind me." Wow.

Mhm. And now they were shooting in China in Beijing, but I showed up. Yeah. And then I'm watching him. I'm watching Rob Robert do the DP and I'm the guy who's there with uh no job. Yeah. So I got to study every job. I'm just chilling, hanging, watching and studying. And I've realized that this was And how old are you then? Oh, no. I'm a man. Yeah. This is uh to kill Bill. I'm 32 at least, right? 30. Yeah. So I'm a man. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean I'm not a kid. Meaning but you know I was I was evolved as a I guess you could say this too, Sean, right? That by you said after five or six years, right? Right.

You're not economically thinking about those problems no more. That's that's right. Okay. Uh love is good in life most likely. Right. Right. And so and the art is starting to really feel fulfilling like a different type of fulfillment almost a calling. Right. And so that's what that's what's happening to me. My love life is good. My economics is good. And my art is insatchable though. It wants more. It wants more. And so that's what led me down that path. And then of course as a businessman I think um you know if you look go back and look at Wuangas is you know from the beginning we was entrepreneurs. You know from opening up our clothing stores to video games like all those things was just part of it.

Um, and then the last lesson for me, and I'll just share this with the with your audience, why that you would say, why the heck would you sell finance a film, which is probably everybody says don't do that. That's like in the book. There's a book on that. Okay. Right. It's the first chapter. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Right. But I got the chance um from the year of 2018 to 2023 to be the showrunner of my own TV show. Right. Which one? Uh it's it's it's we'll take an American Saga on Hulu. Okay. Um so doing that show it's just like okay the best way to do it is to do it. You know what I mean? Right.

Right. The best way to do it is to do it. And and so and so and I and so I'm in that philosophy. Um cuz me spending a dollar may take somebody else $10 to spend that dollar because they don't know how to spend the dollar. All right. We'll be right back. And back to the show, you know, people people who are who are as accomplished as you um in as many um in as many different um skill sets. Uh it it takes it takes an enormous amount of not only ambition uh but but concentration and focus and discipline. um where what what would you say to the listeners who are, you know, trying to get their feet under themselves and really find that gear that it's going to take to hit the passing lane and get past the folks that they're competing with? What is what is that special sauce from you uh for you and and and and from whom did you learn it uh from or or or what happened that that gave you that that spark that that you tap into that

has you know fueled so much incredible um accomplished work. I will share with anybody the first thing is mastery of something. Okay. If you master one thing and you mastered it, then you'll understand the relation of all things. Okay? Right? Because that makes sense. And for me, you know, of course, the first thing going to be my lyrics, right? And I've been writing lyrics since the age of nine. So by the time and you know, I'm the guy that finishes school work first so I can write another lyric. And so mastery of your passion, I guess, would would to should go together. Master your passion. That's great. And if you master your passion, I think that when it's time for other disciplines to come amongst you, you're going to have a foundation because you'll be able to apply it. And I think we all can agree, us here, all all of us artists right here, that we could say that it is uh the artist

has I use this word artistry is a wavelength. Mhm. Right. It's like if you got a So let's take a trumpet, right? And let's call the trumpet the artist. Whatever plays through that trumpet though, it could be jazz, soul, rock, pop, doesn't matter. It's going to come through that trumpet to turn it into music. But when the artist knows the wavelength, he knows what to pass through his his vessel. Mhm. You know what I mean? Can we see that? Jeez, man. I know. That's That's really cool. I know. It's That's kind of amazing. Yeah, that's really cool. What if it's a piano? Just kidding. Uh Sean's an accomplished pianist. I don't know if you knew that. He is. He really is. Um, who cares? My favorite instrument is Sean. Okay, there you go.

Yeah. Well, we'll jam. How How many How many How many can you play? How many different instruments? Yeah. Um, I mean, I play, you know, I'm not going to, you know, I'm a producer, so producers a lot technology, but know I play guitar, drums, of course, guitar, less bass. It's no problem. Uh, I could blow some notes on on on my on my trumpet. And I spend a lot of time on the piano, too. But I'm very shy on the piano, meaning mostly my wife gets to hear me. Very, you know, I got to be nice to play in front of an audience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Sean's very koi on a piano. He's very koi. You know, it's funny. You you do you mentioned like different instruments and stuff. You've done so many different and you've done a lot of collabs in different genres. I remember you did that. I love that record you put out with um Paul Banks from from Interpol Banks and Steel. Dude, that was so rad that that record. Talk a little bit about that experience and how you guys got together. Let's shout out Paul Banks first and the whole Inter Paul family. I put an Interpol song in Black Rabbit coming out. Well, congrats, man. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And Paul's getting married this summer. So, yeah. I mean, this one of the coolest bachelors. I was married while we was making that album.

He wasn't. You know what I mean? And all the girls always scream for him. He's a cool dude, man. Oh, I mean, I don't know him, but I'm such a fan. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that experience. Well, we met because he I guess he had uh he listened to some of my music and he was making it he used I guess one of his articles he used me as a reference to something he was striving to do as an artist. And um I think uh my manager read it and was like, "Oh, my manager is a fan of Paul." He's like, "Oh, Paul is a fan of yours and he kind of quoted something about you and uh you guys are both New Yorkers. Would you, you know, hook up?" Mean, I mean, he's not a native New Yorker, but he's, you know, he was living in New York at the time. He said, "Maybe you guys could hook up and uh chop it up." And we hooked up and we both were chess players and so we would just play chess. At the time he, you know, he he he did drink

tequila. we met at a tequila bar. That's tequila and chess. And that built that built a friendship. And maybe uh a couple of years later, um I think Warner Brothers approached us and was like, "Would you guys be interested in kind of collaborating on something together? We just think you guys are just two cool two cool [ __ ] just to be quite frankly used." Yeah. And we was like, "Yeah, whatever." Yo, we hang anyway. Like you want us to do music, too? Cool. You want to pay us? Hang up. All right. I use that. Um, I used that single uh actually as a temp track in my show. Uh, Jason, you mentioned quite drollly flake the other day, but we couldn't afford it.

Uh, but we used it as we use it as a temp uh in in the show. So, I was a I was a big fan. You anytime you can't afford something of mine, hit me up. I got I'm going from now on. I I discount I discount so many things and $1 gratus just if it gets to my desk, it gets easy. If it don't get to my desk, I'm going to take you up on that. I'm coming. Hey, did you score did you score your your four films that you directed? No, I scored uh two I scored the first one with with my buddy Howard Drawson. Uh the second one, Richard Gibbs, me and him collaborated on the second one. The third one, I passed it over to Danny Harrison, uh good friend, uh you know, uh George Harrison's son. Him and his him and his crew did it. And on the fourth one, I actually combined with Tyler Bates, which is I think Tyler is a incredible um incredible composer. Just very bold and brave in his sound selection. So So the fourth film is me

and Tyler together. Wow. I want to see that. I know. Me too. I Yeah. Go ahead, Jason. You had a follow. Well, I was unrelated, but one thing I keep forgetting to ask. What about Oh, sorry. This is our new segment we're doing called unrelated. Go ahead. Yeah. What about what about martial arts for you? Are you are you an accomplished martial artist or or is there any crossover there? That's a big word. Accomplished. Look, no, I wouldn't say that. I don't know. Right. Of course, I I practice martial art. You do? Okay. Yeah. But my philosophy is mental martial art.

Cultural artistic martial arts. You know what I mean? It's you know just to give you a little bit about the Wuang philosophy in the martial world. So the Shaolin philosophy is is known to be external right you train your body to be hard as iron right in the Wuang you train your body to be soft as cotton. The Shaolin martial artist would throw a thousand punches a day. the Wuang Marshu artist would sit still um and contemplate the thousand punches in his mind. So exercising the mind is known as cuz it's kind of dowist. So it's known as that's the Wuang way, but exercising the body is Zen or Buddhist way. Okay. Uh so being a Wuang Abbott, I'm going here. And so that's why you know my lyrics or my art is it's always formulating. Now somebody was to have step to me now. Okay.

It's a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. So Shin going to jump up out of me. You know what I mean? Dude, dude. I am so I'm entranced. I am This is like unbelievable. This is so I'm going into a Wuang cave when I this interview's over. I've been in a Wuang. We were supposed to record a little while ago. I've been in a Wuang just absolute cave for months now. Hey, um when speaking of Wuang, so when you and just your music in general, do you see you guys have been so like I said, you're so influential on other musicians uh for the last over 30 years. Do you can you see can you like catch glimpses of your influence in music now when you listen to hip-hop? Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's a blessing, right, to be able to inspire anything or anybody, right, after getting inspiration from life yourself. But yeah, that's it's you know constantly you know some of our greatest artists they are not shy to you know

give us a name drop you know I mean Drake named the song Wu Tank Forever you know. Yeah. Um um you know one of Kendrick's Lamar's first samples you know was a a sample which I cleared for free. Nice. Very good. Very good. Um you're welcome. I mean, you guys did so much you did so much sampling over the years. I mean, you guys were like the masters of it. Was there ever a sample that you couldn't clear that you that you wish you could have gotten you were not able to get? Um, well, what was No, the worst. No, I wouldn't say that I Let me see. Uh, yeah, there was a couple cuz some people like become born again Christians and they don't they they wasn't letting hip-hop go. But my biggest one of my biggest glitches was this and I don't mind sharing this with your audience is that there's no uh floor or ceiling when it comes to sampling and the interpolation rights.

And I totally disagree with that. Right. The reason why I disagree is because if you sample a song, say you sample a James Brown song, right? And you got, you know, um, you know, Bootsie on bass, but you got all these in, you know, all these different people playing Macio, right? they all playing the the publisher will come and could potentially take 100% of that song away from you. Mhm. Right. And say that because you're copyright infringing and even though your song could be almost unrecognizable from their song. Mhm. And then the musicians who you're probably more into the musicians than the song itself. Like if I sampled a little bass part from here, a little horn from this guy, a little snare from this guy, and me, I'm a type of guy that had Peter Pan records. So I may get a string section from that. You know what I mean? And make a track. So it's like, what about those musicians? They never get

compensated. It's just the the publishing company. And then I said this last to me in my opinion that it should be a floor in the ceiling. The ceiling should be 50%. That should be the ceiling. You should never take more than half because you got the lyrics, you got the talent, you got everything else that the other person is building to make the song. Yeah. Right. And then the floor should be then prorated by how how much you took, you know, versus what the song is. But with with a ceiling, so the floor could be I'll put the floor at even 20% to be merciful. 20% floor no matter what. If you if you put my record on, you take something, give me 20% for that inspiration, right?

But but most I could take from you is 50%. And we'll measure how to get to 50%. I got a situation where I did sample uh Marvin Gay and um Tammy Terrell's All I All I Need and it was a double platinum selling song. Uh won the Grammy uh Meth Man and Mary J. Blah was the Coca-Cola commercial of the summer and all we received is 10% of the song. Wow. They took it all. Wow. Yeah. And that I mean that song made Yeah. Every time I made a dollar they only gave us a dime. No. And um No way. And look in one I could argue back they you know they it says it was ours. You took it and but you also I could then argue back but no we didn't know. We didn't know that that was a law or cuz hip-hop started from a guy with a turntable and he's scratching beats back and forth. We rapping over it and then they made a sampler. A sampler says sample an instrument. Okay. That's my new instrument. And now I'm sampling

sounds and and records for my collection and I'm making my own thing. We didn't know that it's going to it was going to be a law or some type of thing that was going to stop us. And eventually hip-hop got slowed down because of uh sampling and interpolation laws because of lawyers. Yeah. And then all those fe all those fees were assessed retroactively into into all of those songs that were created with some samples and stuff. Once the law went into effect, then they reached back and charged. Oh wow. You got some songs now I got some I got a song of mine that is totally wrong. Two two or three of my songs because they they thought that it was it and it wasn't it. Right. Wow. And it's like it's like hold on. That's not Roger Troutman. What is I I didn't even I wasn't I wasn't a Roger Troutman fan, right? I was a Delonius Monk fan, but I wasn't a Roger Troutman fan. I love that. I love your I love your floor and

ceiling uh uh idea. I think that that's something that should that should take root. I hopefully I I think that that makes a lot of sense and seems really fair. Really really fair. So I hope that works out. Um all right, before I let you go, I want to talk a little bit about um a ballet through mud because you released classical album last year. I I can't I did not know this. I want to hear this. It's unbelievable. Like every time there's like something else that you did. talk a little bit about how that came about and your ambition with that and and and where we can see it.

Will it's ever be done again or Well, the ballet was performed uh a few times already and so we don't know if it's going to if I'm going to, you know, do it like perform it again, but we did perform it uh in LA, we did in uh Colorado, which we I wrote it for uh Colorado. Um, I was part of this uh artist and resident where for 3 years I would create something to take to the Colorado Symphony Orchestra and and perform. So it was during the pandemic of course that I I found this notebook of old lyrics and then inside these lyrics uh this these are like my high school lyrics. So this book is so old um my buddy Raycoin made a joke said that book is growing hair man like It's that old, right? But in it is all of the ideas from ninth grade up until graduation, right? So you could hear you could see the first blunt, the first weed, you could hear the the early sexual ideas and everything. And you could also hear

the imagination growing. And so when I found the book, I said, I can't I should I can't rap these, right? What should I do? And then I eventually decided uh talking with my wife about it of course that what if I kind of composed it into like a ballet or something. Great idea. And so she thought it was a great idea as well and I kind of went into it. The funny thing is that uh one let me let me share one of the lyrics that led to it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the lyrics was uh about these six teenagers um who are exploring life, right? So, Sue was this girl who was really quite fly and Brad was real cool. He was her guy. Lisa was freaky. She loved to have sex. Her brother name was Dexter, but they called him Dex.

His girlfriend name was Monica. She was a Verge. And Joe, he was their friend and he was a nerd. Brad bought the beer. Sue bought the smoke. Lisa had sheets. Dexter had coke. Joe was the type who didn't get high nor did Monica. But she was willing to try. So Brad lit a blunt and passed it to Joe saying, "Come on, man. Smoke it." And Joe said, "No, what's wrong? Are you scared?" Was asked by Sue. "Oh, you're just a nerd." Joe said, "That's not true." Monica said, "Come on, Joe. Just have a taste." And she popped on the joint and blew smoke in his face. Now on Monica, Joe had a crush. He didn't want to do it, but felt that he must. Like many we know, love made him a fool. So he smoked the joint to prove he was cool. Then Lisa was like, "Yo, forget about Joe." Then say, "Hey, Dex, where the heck is the blow?"

He pulled out two grams that said, "It's all that I bought." Well, it's more than enough. And they proceeded to snort. Now at this time, Joe had finished two beers. And Brad was like, "Here, have another you qu." And Joe said, "No." While holding his stomach and while facing Monica, he suddenly vomitked. She screamed, "Oh my god, [ __ ] how observed and everyone laughed and said, "Joe is a nerd. Joe is a nerd. Joe is a nerd." Joe felt embarrassed, so he did the bird. They chased him. He ran. They screamed and they laughed into this abandoned house. And with the sound of this crashing glass and it was dark in there, so Brad had to get a light to check to see if Joe was all right. But when they found them, he was laying on his back with quarts of red blood spurting from his head. And Monica said, "Oh my god, Joey is dead." and they started to run and they never mentioned this incident again to anyone. So, wow, that's

beautiful. That is amazing. And I turned that to a ballet. That That's unbelievable. Got to see that. Just riveted. How in the world do you remember I know not only remember that, but remember everything that you make. I mean, it's incredible. It's so good. Yeah. God, man. We could talk for hours. I We've taken up way too much of your time. What what an absolute like I said at the beginning, what an absolute honor to have you, man. I'm such a fan. It really has been such a you're such a creative juggernaut, dude on in every way. So, just, you know, continueess and I say all respect and I just saying I'm a fan of all you guys work as well.

Thank you for what you contributed to my life. Uh it's just you know the I've watched you I've watched as a fan you know the things you guys create uh whether in the theater in front of my TV set and uh got my laughs got my inspiration and and and probably took some from your tree here and there. Remember I'm hip-hop so I sampled. Okay. You sampled us. You sampled us. I sampled. Yes indeed. Right back at you. You've touched all of us and millions and millions around the world too. You really inspired us today. Well, thank you, Rizza, for your time, man.

And uh yeah, spoonful of chocolate. Uh all the best of luck with it, man. Can't wait for it. We'll be watching. Bet. Peace. Thank you. See you. Bye, pal. Wow. Well, Willie, that was uh I I didn't think you had it in you, you know. I know. You always talk about them. You've talked about them for I wanted to have them on for a long time. And uh I'm so I'm like I I knew the bar was high. I was like, "Oh, he's going to be inspirational. He's going to be cool." And I can't believe how he just exceeds expectations just as a creative, right? It's just unbelievable. It's like an awesome well of creativity. Yeah. And also like just philosophies and like Yeah. I mean spiritual like I love the thing he said about the trumpet like the where the artist has to connect the energy to the vibrations that go through the thing that makes the sound like whatever that was but um that was really cool we're like trumpet Jay you're more

like a whimo you know what I mean you're just like a pro with nothing inside please rate me empty vehicle that goes from just destination to destination but that's fine that's fine and we still love you um ah Ah, but honestly, yeah, he had so, you're right, he had so many cool philosophies. I mean, by the way, the whole Shaolin approach that he does and the way they created that community and kind of like there's just and he produced all those records for all those guys, you know, for Ghost Face and for all those dudes like Matthew Man, it's insane. It is wild. I want to be in the music world a little bit. They all just seem like they just they kind of got it all together.

Yeah. No one's running. They're just, you know, they're just doing their thing. That's right. I'm really excited for him for for uh I knew Jay you'd be excited that he's, you know, he's directing. I didn't know he' done four films, but I saw the trailer. I saw the trailer for his new film. It looks really, really good. Yeah. So, I'm excited for that. And and uh how cool. I mean, and it makes sense that he'd be a good director because he has been sort of the abbot, as he says, of the Wuang for so long and does so and wears so many hats and Jay, as you know, as a director, that's what you have to that's what you have to pulling on all those different levers. Yeah. and just a great spend a lot of time on Abbott Kenny where there's a gay bar in Abbott Kenny.

You know the funny story about that gay bar. It's called uh I think the rooster. How do you guys know that? I think I think I think so when I true when I uh I I there's a light bulb out in the back alley behind Anyway, forget that. Oh no, it doesn't matter. There you go. I used to live right around there. And uh when I first moved into my house, me and my buddy went down went down the street like, "Well, we got to find our local bar, right, if we're going to be living down here." And this place is is at the time, I don't know if it still is. It was painted this like this really cool like turquoise blue and uh and we're like, "Well, this place looks kind of cool." Walked in there, [ __ ] sat at the bar and ordered a couple of beers and just started talking to each other.

And uh I get a little tap tap on the shoulder and I don't think the guy had like a gag ball in his mouth, but it seemed it was something was it was very clear that we were in the wrong spot almost immediately. Right. Right. We finished the beer and we got some hands and Yeah. So we only had three more beers. I only had three more and then I was out of there. By the way, I forgot I forgot to mention I forgot to mention that uh that for Rizza that they're they're his they're they're on tour this summer, right? The Wuang final tour. So, I also wanted to mention that. Yeah. Yeah. We should go.

We should really go. How how you mentioned that during the interview so we could lock up some tickets. I know. I forgot. We can still lock say tickies. Look, he picked it up from He picked it up from roosterish up. Well, that's the way I would have phrased it with him, too. I say, "Hey, any chance we get some tickies?" you know, and we would have it would have been uncomfortable ambush him in the interview live. You know, he would have had to would have been uncomfortable for anybody, dude. Okay. The way you sort of infantilize everything is so I want to By the way, I feel like that rooster fish story isn't over, but we it can it can be for now.

I'll tell you the ending after we got to shut down. Is that the That was the day that you discovered that you weren't gay, but that maybe you were gay adjacent. Bye. There he is. Smart less. Smart glass. Smartless is 100% organic and artisally handcrafted by Bennett Barbco, Michael Grant, Terry, and Rob Armjarf. Smart less.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "RZA | SmartLess"?

Rizza (Guest).

What is discussed in "RZA | SmartLess"?

In order: 0:00 Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai, Kevin Hart, Rizza, One Spoon of Chocolate; 10:00 Wuang Clan, Shaolin, Shaolin, Wu-Tang Clan; 20:00 Mike Scarelli, Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, Shaolin, Martin Shkreli; 30:00 Kill Bill, One Spoon of Chocolate, One Spoon of Chocolate, One Spoon of Chocolate; 40:00 Shaolin, Martial arts, Wuang Clan, Claudia Banks; 50:00 Ballet, Shaolin, Wuang Clan, A Ballet Through the Mud; 1:00:00 Michael Grant Terry, SmartLess.

What is mentioned in this SmartLess episode?

121 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Rizza, Wuang Clan, One Spoon of Chocolate, Wu-Tang Clan, Shaolin, Enter the Wu Tang. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "RZA | SmartLess"?

The episode runs 1 h 2 min; the transcript is about 12,007 words in 80 timestamped sections.

More from SmartLess

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 9, 2026.