Tom Freston | SmartLess

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Charmin, Chris Whipple, Geek Squad, Hollywood Bowl
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Morocco, Charmin, G.I. Joe, Hippie trail
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Dire Straits, Music video, American Express, Berlin
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Comedy Central, John Stewart, Fake news, Fred Silverman
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Viacom, Channel 4, ONE Campaign, Vice Media
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Timbuktu, Bangkok, Bamako, Al Qaeda
7. 1:00:00 – 1:03:35: SmartLess, SmartLess

Notable quotes from "Tom Freston | SmartLess"

• We'll, save, that, for, Smartless, After Dark. which we still haven't gotten off the ground, but still working on the logo which, is, funny, because, our, guest, today,.

  about SmartLess · at 5:17

• He, become, CEO, of, Viacom, and, now, he's, the chair of the one campaign fighting poverty. He's done it all. He's the coolest guy and I'm happy to call him my friend. You guys is Mr. Tom Fston.

  about Viacom · at 6:20

• Well,, let's, see., I, was, I, had, been working in an ad agency in New York. I got assigned to Charmin toilet paper tough a tough account working with Mr.

  about Charmin · at 9:28

• Yeah., I, remember, you, you, sort, of described in the book when you first get to Morocco when you were still with your traveling with your friend your girlfriend, and just…

  about Morocco · at 15:04

• You guys decide to then you have a bunch of other things that I mentioned in the intro, Nickelodeon, VH1, and Comedy Central. And this is great. So, Comedy Central ends up…

  about Comedy Central · at 31:29

• Central in your book that you describe is what really set you guys off was when you hired John Stewart. Is that right?

  about John Stewart · at 35:19

• Mind. I'd like to finally come to Asia with you. Where do you want to go? He goes, I want to go to Bangkok. I go We don't really have any business in Bangkok. that's like one…

  about Bangkok · at 53:03

• Everything you talk about. I mean you literally people go like from here to Timbuktu. You literally went to Timbuktu. I want to end on you the time you went to the music…

  about Timbuktu · at 55:06

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• John Stewart — Person · 3 mentions · first at 35:23
• Jane Buffett — Person · 2 mentions · first at 6:59
  Oh,, yeah., We, originally, met, through, our mutual friend many years ago through Jimmy Buffett back Jimmy and Jane Buffett introduced us back in the day. Tom's good friend may rest in peace.
• Jimmy Buffett — Person · 2 mentions · first at 6:59
  Oh,, yeah., We, originally, met, through, our mutual friend many years ago through Jimmy Buffett back Jimmy and Jane Buffett introduced us back in the day. Tom's good friend may rest in peace.
• Dire Straits — Person · 2 mentions · first at 22:41
  And, I, feel, Dire, Straits, had one of the early ones.
• Luca Del Bono — Person · 2 mentions
• Princess Leia — Person · 1 mention · first at 0:34
  Why?, Because, you, want, to, look, like Princess Leia.
• Chris Whipple — Person · 1 mention · first at 9:38
  Working in an ad agency in New York. I got assigned to Charmin toilet paper tough a tough account working with Mr.
• John Sykes — Person · 1 mention · first at 21:04
  Me, and, Bob, Pitman., There, was, a, guy, named John Sykes. There was a guy named Oh,, boy., John, Sykes.
• Steve Casey — Person · 1 mention · first at 21:09
  Steve, Casey.,, who, else, was, there?
• Sue Steinberg — Person · 1 mention · first at 21:13
  Carolyn Baker, Sue Steinberg and there was about six or seven of us.
• David Fincher — Person · 1 mention · first at 26:38
  Yeah., And yeah,, David, Fincher,, too.
• Mark Goodman — Person · 1 mention · first at 28:54
  And, the, VJs, were, cool, too., Remember, like Mark Goodman and Martha Quinn.
• Martha Quinn — Person · 1 mention · first at 28:54
  And, the, VJs, were, cool, too., Remember, like Mark Goodman and Martha Quinn.
• Taylor Swift — Person · 1 mention · first at 31:19
  If you want a fast channel, you could just pick your favorite artist like Taylor Swift and just click on her and just watch all her videos, right?
• Fred Silverman — Person · 1 mention · first at 34:48
  Thought, well, we'll just run comedy shows. So I did things to create headlines. I hired Fred Silverman, who programmed all the big networks at one time. We did deals with like…
• Norman Lear — Person · 1 mention · first at 34:57
  Time. We did deals with like Brian Graaser and we licensed stuff from Norman Lear and we just would continue to throw out announcements. So we got Saturday Night Live, the original five years of that, you know 75 to 80. And we built up a.
• John Oliver — Person · 1 mention · first at 36:11
  Perfect., But, we, had,, what, came, out, of that was we had John Stewart, Steven Cobear, John Oliver, Samantha B, Bill Maher was on our channel first, Dave Chappelle. it was a…
• Steve Carell — Person · 1 mention · first at 37:25
  Other places for a while. Coar Kimmel Maher and so on and, Steve, Carell, too and, and, Carell, Carell.
• Chris Blackwell — Person · 1 mention · first at 55:39
  Come. It would be like all I love we love West African music. So, I got a few other people. Chris Blackwell. Yeah.
• Bill Flanagan — Person · 1 mention
• Bob Geldof — Person · 1 mention
• Bob Pittman — Person · 1 mention
• Brian Grazer — Person · 1 mention
• Craig Kilborn — Person · 1 mention
• Fred Seibert — Person · 1 mention
• Mark Knopfler — Person · 1 mention
• Mel Karmazin — Person · 1 mention
• Michael Fuchs — Person · 1 mention
• Rupert Murdoch — Person · 1 mention
• Russell Mulcahy — Person · 1 mention
• Samantha Bee — Person · 1 mention
• Spike Jonze — Person · 1 mention
• Stephen Colbert — Person · 1 mention
• Sumner Redstone — Person · 1 mention
• Tom Preston — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Unplugged: Adventures from MTV to Timbuktu — Book · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

• Viacom — Company · 4 mentions · first at 6:20
• Nickelodeon — Company · 3 mentions · first at 6:15
  Global everywhere. Runs a bunch of little networks you might have heard what heard of called Nickelodeon VH1 Company Central. Basically Mr., Tom, Fston.
• Comedy Central — Company · 3 mentions · first at 31:33
• ONE Campaign — Company · 2 mentions · first at 6:22
  He, become, CEO, of, Viacom, and, now, he's, the chair of the one campaign fighting poverty. He's done it all. He's the coolest guy and I'm happy to call him my friend. You guys is Mr. Tom Fston.
• U.S.C. — Company · 2 mentions
• Geek Squad — Company · 1 mention · first at 2:53
  Yeah., Isn't, that, nice?, That's Well,, and, you, also, you, started,, weren't you original one of the original Geek Squad guys?
• Showtime — Company · 1 mention · first at 6:41
  It's, an, honor, to, be, here., Thanks, on, you've, seen, all, 10, seasons, on, Showtime for us.
• American Express — Company · 1 mention · first at 20:02
  Doesn't, roll, off, the, tongue., It, was, a joint venture of Warner and American Express.
• The Comedy Channel — Company · 1 mention · first at 31:59
  They're going to call it the Comedy Channel. And we went, Oh, wow. They're getting into our business. They were the pay TV people. We were like the little low.
• The Man Show — Company · 1 mention · first at 36:22
  Dave Chappelle. it was a good launching place for young talent. Jimmy Kimmel had the man show. You may remember that. Yeah, that I, mean, Tom, I, you, think, about, you, name…
• News Corp — Company · 1 mention · first at 38:54
  Right., You're, Sean's, still, on, it., It's his main source of communication. And so he wanted MySpace and so did News Corp, right? Is that fair?
• Vice Media — Company · 1 mention · first at 42:24
  Wow., And, then $600, billion., On, the, side, of, that,, you also helped these guys start Vice Media as well, right? You were instrumental in getting We, worked, with, Vice, for, a, bunch, of years. Yeah. Yeah. That was a wild ride.
• Channel 4 — Company · 1 mention · first at 47:06
  Entertainment business because but, I, just, heard, something, today., It's some they have a channel 4 in the UK has these newscasters that are AI generated that sound exactly like really, exactly, it, could, be, one, of.
• Bloomingdale's — Company · 1 mention
• Gates Foundation — Company · 1 mention
• HA! The TV Comedy Network — Company · 1 mention
• HBO — Company · 1 mention
• Malala Fund — Company · 1 mention
• RED — Company · 1 mention
• The Jon Stewart Show — Company · 1 mention
• VH1 — Company · 1 mention
• Warner-Amex Satellite Entertainment — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• SmartLess — Product · 2 mentions · first at 5:17
• Charmin — Product · 2 mentions · first at 9:34
• G.I. Joe — Product · 1 mention · first at 14:21
  And, before, that,, I, was, on, the, G.I., Joe account, which was the war toy of the military industrial complex. It was a very alienated time. A lot of people were quitting jobs and.
• MySpace — Product · 1 mention · first at 38:42
  There was a thing called one of the first social media sites out there was a thing called MySpace and it was up for grabs and he wanted it and I'm still, on, it., I'm, still, on, it.
• Red Bull — Product · 1 mention · first at 50:43
  And, it's, energy, drinks, Red, Bull kind of stuff. That's what they have there because there's no alcohol. But we've now switched into doing programming for school for women. So.
• Vivo — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

• Music video — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 23:36
  Understand and what I've read wrote that as a sort of a almost like a rebuttal to the sort of you know music video and the corporatization of music and all that. Is that right?…
• Hippie trail — Concept · 1 mention · first at 15:26
  They call it the hippie trail. I mean no one selfidentified as a hippie. But like in California, New York, people were in those days would if you wanted to drop out, you sort of went to a.
• Video Killed the Radio Star — Concept · 1 mention · first at 22:54
  Straits because it's actually in it's a big part of the book, Jay. That's a really good point. First of all, Video Killed the Radio Star was the first video you guys aired right when you first launched. Is that true?
• Live Aid — Concept · 1 mention · first at 28:21
  And, the, second, thing, was, Live, Aid.
• Fake news — Concept · 1 mention · first at 35:55
  Let's just not do pop culture stuff. Why don't we take a crack at the news? I'll be a fake news man.
• Al Qaeda — Concept · 1 mention · first at 56:57
  Cuz, he, is, taking, us., We're, going, in, the wrong direction. And he was taking us to an al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda was kidnapping tourists in that area. And like there was just…
• Artificial Intelligence — Concept · 1 mention
• Cable television — Concept · 1 mention
• Margaritaville — Concept · 1 mention
• Reality television — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

• Timbuktu — Place · 4 mentions · first at 55:09
• Bangkok — Place · 3 mentions · first at 53:07
• Morocco — Place · 2 mentions · first at 15:07
• Bamako — Place · 2 mentions · first at 55:45
  My, friend, Bill, Flanigan., We, we, flew, to Bamako, the capital of Mali. And then we got a plane. We took the Jimmy Jet. We flew to Timbuktu. And we land in the Timbuktu airport. People there's nothing there. There's no planes there.
• Hollywood Bowl — Place · 1 mention · first at 8:24
  Seasons., One, time, when, we, were, I, told that story when we when they did that show at the Hollywood Bowl in honor of Jimmy and I told the story about he was going to do…
• Sahara Desert — Place · 1 mention · first at 9:47
  Was in Paris called I said hey you can't do that come with me we're going to cross the Sahara desert and I quit my job and a week later I was on a plane and I met her and we…
• Berlin — Place · 1 mention · first at 22:12
  Wow., So,, but, America, and, I, I, I, at, one summer I had a girlfriend in Berlin. I remember just going to she would work and I go to a record store and just watch music videos all day. It's one of those kind of days. I was like thinking.
• Thailand — Place · 1 mention · first at 52:29
  In, Thailand,, which, you, talk, about, in the book, which is crazy.
• Moritania — Place · 1 mention · first at 57:02
  To an al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda was kidnapping tourists in that area. And like there was just over the border in Moritania there. There was a Germans they had been holding for a year and we were on our way there.
• Dodger Stadium — Place · 1 mention
• Mali — Place · 1 mention

Sponsors

• SmartLess — Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 5:17
  We'll, save, that, for, Smartless, After Dark. which we still haven't gotten off the ground, but still working on the logo which, is, funny, because, our, guest, today,.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:06 It's so good to be here with you guys today. It, feels, like, it's, been, a, while., No,, it feels like it's been a while since I've said it's really good to be with you guys.

0:14 It's, really, good, to, be, with, you, guys. How are your headphones? Are they Do they fit okay? Are they tight?

0:19 My, my, headphones? Yeah., For, the, record, today. See,, feels, pretty, good., Wait,, wait. You've got new headphones on, don't you Shan?

0:28 I, do., Yeah,, they're, they're, new., I, might wear them out. I might wear them out.

0:32 Why?, Because, you, want, to, look, like Princess Leia. Yeah, I, think, they, look, cool.

0:36 Wait,, wait,, wait,, wait,, wait., This, whole thing was a setup cuz you wanted compliments for your new headphones.

0:42 Yeah. Did, you, want, to, mention, the, company, or something like that? Is that what your angle?

0:46 No, idea, what, the, company, is. Oh,, wait., I, just, got, a, text., Welcome. It's an all new smart list.

0:50 Smart. Smart less. Smart less. How, about, I, fixed, myself? No, way., It's, about, time.

1:11 I, know, how, to, fix, myself. I, saw, you, looking., I, saw, you, looking, and then doing stuff. And I I actually saw you do the class. You literally went like this.

1:20 Yeah., Tap, the, lips. Tap, your, lips., That's, how, the, brain works. Audibly, went, the, button, on, the, lips., By the way, JB, you have ruined forever. I noticed it yesterday again. Somebody commented on it getting out of the car. I went

1:33 yeah, it, tightens, the, core, to, make, a, little, do it now, too. I, do, it, when, I, get, in, the, car,, too.

1:44 I, realize, I've, been, doing, it, since, I, was 35 because of you. We're, all, getting, that.

1:50 Um,, yeah., So,, well,, this, is, what, what number episode is this for us? Are we north? We're north of 200, right?

1:58 Over, 250,, I, think. Yeah,, we're, in, the, 280s, now. I, can, No,, really., I, can, now, I'm basically my own uh tech support now. I can I know how to find the little

2:08 We, don't, We, don't, need, to, tell, you, 290 times. You, know,, that's, the, good, news.

2:15 That, is, true., Out, of, the, three, of, us, who has the most technical problems? Uh

2:21 who, gets, Do, we, get, to, vote, or, do, you have to own up? I, think, I'm, I, think, I'm, all, right., I'll bet I'll bet Sean you're you're worse because you're able to because Scotty can catch you every time.

2:32 This, is, true., I, scream, my, head, off, if I'm like I can't log on or my computer.

2:36 Who, has, who, has, the, least the, least, least, problems? Yeah., Technical, not, problems., Not, not world problems.

2:44 No,, it's, always, you., Why, is, that? Because that's what you do for a living. Well, I'm more probably used to the setup of the mic.

2:50 Yeah., Isn't, that, nice?, That's Well,, and, you, also, you, started,, weren't you original one of the original Geek Squad guys?

2:56 I, did, do, I, did, I, still, own, the, name. What, is, it? Yeah. Yeah, I, still, I, did, all, the, art.

3:04 I, went, to, a, Dodgers, game, with, Jason, a couple weeks ago and then You, sure, did.

3:08 And, then, we, went, to, the, USC, football game. Yeah,, you, did., And, you, had, a, decent, We had a decent quarter there.

3:12 Well,, yeah,, that, was, crazy., We, Jason, and I I had all the concessions that Jason I was holding them.

3:19 This, guy, looked, like, he, was, at, a, state fair. Yeah. [ __ ], it., Did, it, looked, like, I, had, like

3:26 Bessie, had, two, armfuls. I, did., I, had, like, a, soft, pretzel, and Jason has his hot dog and his phone and I had all the drinks in the pretzel. The

3:35 cheese, dipping. I, once, described, you, I, once, described you as a soft pretzel. That's funny.

3:41 Just, a, knots, all, over. Yeah., But, it, sounds, like, you're, really living your best life though, J.

3:48 But, that, was, so, embarrassing., That, was so fun. But it was so embarrassing cuz we somebody was in our seats and then I felt like the whole stadium was looking at us as we were just standing there.

3:55 Yeah., So,, you, know,, when, you, show, up, a little bit late and people spread out and they get in your seats and then you have to like you have to you show up at the aisle and you're kind of in a half squat cuz you don't want to like block.

4:04 And, here, come, these, big, these, big [ __ ] actors actors little and every was like, "Oh, you're going to kick these people out. I but you have to like show proof of your tickets and you remember you used to used to pass your ticket down the aisle. Yeah. See, but now the tickets are on your phone. Tickets are on your phone. You got to like pass your phone down the aisle. People are touching your phone. You know, I don't like that, Willie.

4:24 Right. And, and, these, guys,, guess, what?, Here's here's the news. While, he's, eating, his, hot, dog.

4:29 Yeah., They, wouldn't, move. Yeah. No. They're, like,, "Yeah,, I, see, this, is, your ticket, but they told us to sit here." I'm like "Who told you to sit?" The usher. I said, "Well, I don't see the usher now." Well, you got to get them and tell them to move us.

4:41 That's, right., And, then, I'm So,, we, had, to, sit, on, the, stairs, with, our groceries and wait.

4:46 I, mean,, oh, god,, it, was, the, wor, It, took like 10 minutes. And, then, they, finally, got, the, finally got out.

4:53 Did, it, come, to, blows?, Did, it a, family, of, four, were, relocated, and, just us two sat down and now we got two extra seats next to us and we looked like super [ __ ]

5:02 I, ate, my, I, ate, my, pretzel, on, this, on, the stairs and my cheese went everywhere.

5:06 Oh,, no., You, mean, actual, cheese? It, wasn't, It, wasn't, a, result, of, eating the pretzel made your cheese go everywhere.

5:12 You, created, cheese. No., Okay. We'll, save, that, for, Smartless, After Dark. Uh, which we still haven't gotten off the ground, but um still working on the logo

5:23 which, is, funny, because, our, guest, today, I said smartless, he often refers to it as shameless. And I know he's joking and it's tongue and cheek because I love him.

5:30 He's, pretty, shameless. It, is., And, uh, this, this, is, a, guy, who, is really You want to talk about live the life? This guy's really lived the life. Okay. Oh boy.

5:37 He, starts, out,, he's, the, pride, of Connecticut, sort of. Uh he started out running a clothing company out of Afghanistan and India. No joke. Back in like the early '7s when nobody was over there.

5:48 He, just, I, mean, he's, the, kind, of, guy, you you'd find him on a nightboat detangier. That's the kind of dude he is. Out of nowhere, he comes back after running literally trying to avoid tariffs and running uh clothing illegally across the St. Louis into upstate New York. He then decides he's going to change everything and he goes and he starts to create he creates this thing that literally changed the way that we saw music fashion, culture, everything. It went global everywhere. Runs a bunch of little networks you might have heard what heard of called Nickelodeon VH1 Company Central. Basically

6:19 Mr., Tom, Fston. He, become, CEO, of, Viacom, and, now, he's, the chair of the one campaign fighting poverty. He's done it all. He's the coolest guy and I'm happy to call him my friend. You guys is Mr. Tom Fston.

6:29 Cannot, wait. Oh,, mister., Hey, guys, can't, wait, to, hear, all, about, this, fella.

6:36 It's, an, honor, to, be, here., Thanks, on, you've, seen, all, 10, seasons, on, Showtime for us.

6:44 Shameless. Shameless. Uh,, welcome, to, the, show. Wait,, how, do, you, and, Will, know, each other Tom?

6:50 Um,, just, for, hanging, around, in, New, York out on Long Island. Yeah. Oh,, yeah., We, originally, met, through, our mutual friend uh uh many years ago through Jimmy Buffett back Jimmy and Jane Buffett introduced us back in the day. Tom's good friend um uh may rest in peace.

7:06 Yeah,, I'm, sorry, about, your, loss. The, great, Jimmy, Buffett, and, who, was, uh Jimmy,, one, of the, things, he, did, was, he brought a lot of people together and introduced a lot of people. Am I right about that, Tom?

7:16 Yeah,, he, sure, did. Yeah,, he, was, just How, did, How, did, you, Tom?, How, did, you meet Jimmy? I met Jimmy in the basement of a bar called JP's in the in the in Manhattan in the 70s. It was like, you know, in the at 5:00 a.m. you open up the one of those Bilco doors or 8 a.m. and walk out in the sunlight like a vampire.

7:36 But, he, he, would, hang, out, there., It, was like sort of a music industry hangout.

7:40 So, I, met, him, there, in, 1977. Wow. And, we, just,, you, know, would, hang, out, and, trips., I, would, travel with him a lot. He'd like to go to he liked to travel. And that was especially good, especially after he bought a jet.

7:53 Yeah., Was, he, flying, planes, back, then? Yeah,, he, he, he, could, fly, all, kinds, of planes. The Jimmy jets. Yeah, he would uh was very serious about it. He could fly sea planes, you know, all kinds of uh big fancy ones as well.

8:06 And, Tom,, he, had, a, few, Jimmy, also, crashed a few planes, didn't he? Back.

8:11 He, did., He, crashed., He, landed, in Nantucket and sort of flipped it over and that was uh

8:16 one, and, there, was, other, instances, of, uh seasons., One, time, when, we, were, I, told that story when we when they did that um that show at the Hollywood Bowl in honor of Jimmy and I told the story about uh he was he was going to do takeoff and landings on this little island and he said, "What are you?" I said "What are you doing this morning?" He goes, "I got to go get certified. I'm doing takeoffs and landings. Do you want to go?" And I go, "Yeah." And then he left the room and Jane turned to him and she goes "Dude, he's crashed like three planes.

8:42 You're not getting on." Oh, my, god., The, key, word, there, is training. Do you want to come to training? No.

8:49 So, So, uh, Tom,, I, want, to, go, I, want, to, go all the way back. By the way, Tom's Tom's got a book that we're going to get we're, going to, get, into, Tom's, book, in, a second because I I read it a while ago and it's phenomenal. Uh but I will called Unplugged which is fantastic which is I think out now, right Tom? It comes out November 18.

9:08 Yeah., So,, but, you, know,, again,, we've we've known each other a little bit over the years, but I read your book. So Tom, walk us through and I wasn't joking when I said you started you started a clothing company in Afghanistan in India.

9:22 I, want, to, know, how, and, why. 1970., How, how, is, one, able, to, do, that?

9:28 Um,, well,, let's, see., I, was, I, had, been working in an ad agency in New York. I got assigned to Charmin toilet paper tough a tough account working with Mr. Whipple and uh this my old girlfriend was in Paris called I said hey you can't do that come with me we're going to cross the Sahara desert and I quit my job and a week later I was on a plane and I met her and we we we traveled around and then she left and I kept going I tr I for a whole year and at one point I I met some woman who said you know you've got to go to India that's uh the greatest show on earth so I I did do that I and I ended up loving India and Afghanistan man. And I stayed for I tried to figure out how can I live here?

10:14 This is like living a whole other on a whole other planet back then. And, what, yeah, what, yearish?

10:19 This, is, 1972. So I stayed through 1979. I started a couple of businesses. We, would, design, and, make, clothes., I, mean higher quality clothes we'd sell to Bloomingdales and so forth. And became a big business. I mean and I I had a house in Delhi and uh I was able to travel everywhere. I was living like a posasha. It was wonderful. And then a bunch of bad things happened to me and uh not the not the least of which was Jimmy Carter put an embargo. It's sort of like what's going on today with the tariffs. There would be no more clothing imports from India. And I had all this stuff in production.

11:02 Wow., you, know,, it, was, a, nightmare working there in those days. Um, so I I actually ended up smuggling three tons of stuff in from Canada.

11:12 Yeah., Wait,, wait,, Tom., Tom, Tom,, take, us through that. So, so you get, by the way, this is like So, this before obviously before the internet and all that stuff. So you guys are this is all sort of phone calls and everything takes a little bit longer and now you've got all these goods that you're sitting on and you got to get it into the states and so you decide what

11:28 well, I, I, had, met, in, my, years, there, all these smugglers, you know, sort of rife with drug smugglers and they would always say how easy it was to smuggle stuff into the United States.

11:39 Wow., By, by, just, by, just, by, putting, it, on a plane and just nobody checking.

11:43 Well,, no,, they, had, they, would, they, would they would send stuff in shipments. Yeah,

11:48 they, would, take, stuff, across, borders, but in this case, I was allowed to bring stuff legally into Canada

11:54 and,, you, know,, I, figured,, you, know,, if these long-haired goofballs could do it I could do it. And I felt like I wasn't really committing a crime. It was really foolish, I would admit. I mean, but I just want I figured get some money back. I felt I had really been ripped off by the government with no prior announcement or anything. So, that was the end of my business. And I also my business in Afghanistan kind of vaporized because there had been a a communist coup there.

12:20 Right. But, Tom,, can, can, you, can, you, for, for, a for a real soft uh Hollywood idiot like me uh who any this whole thing sounds just so foreign from anything I would ever imagine, let alone pursue.

12:40 He, won't, go, east, of, Labraa., Put, it, that way. Okay. it's just forget it or or or south of the of the airport. Um what what what was your life like at that age at that time that gave you either

12:56 the, the, courage, to, uh, to, to, have, this wander lust or to or maybe the opposite of courage there was there was just stuff happening in your life. was like "Fuck all this. I I I just want to go to the end of the earth for something completely new, something completely different because this ain't working." What was it? One of the two.

13:17 Yeah,, it, was, it, was, more, the, latter., I mean, I I was Yeah, I was It was the 60s, so you know, there was a lot of alienation around. Freedom sounded like a good option. I I decided early on I didn't want to really have a mainstream kind of life. I had taken a year off and sort of bartended around. That worked out.

13:33 But, you, had, gotten, your, MBA., You, Right. Yeah,, I, had, an, MBA., I, did, that., That, was a way to stay out of the draft in those days,

13:40 right? And, then, so, it, was, I, just, wanted, to, sort of leave uh out of the mainstream life and it sounded very exotic and interesting to be living in a place so foreign.

13:51 What, was, it, about, the, mainstream, life that just didn't feel uh something that you were attracted to, especially given the fact that you had gone down this road of mainstream. You got an MBA and and like you're you're set. You're ready. You put a huge time and financial investment into the mainstream and then you said, "Yeah, no, let's flip it. Let's go 180 this way."

14:14 It, wasn't, fun., Have, you, ever, tried selling toilet paper? And, before, that,, I, was, on, the, G.I., Joe account, which was like, you know, the war toy of the uh military industrial complex. It was a very alienated time. A lot of people were quitting jobs and sort of trying to go off and do their own thing.

14:35 So, everything, looked, appealing, and everything, looked, appealing, and, it looked really exciting because I wasn't having any fun. I felt like I needed to stretch out a bit. I'd been in school for like 18 years or something. So I was ready to go and then I I fell in love with this very foreign place and in those days it was really foreign. You know,

14:53 also, age, because, if, you're, young,, you you're like, "Well, I might as well try it now." Yeah, I was uh 25 26, you know. I mean, a young. So, if not now, when?

15:03 That's, Yeah. Yeah., I, remember, you, you, sort, of described in the book when you first get to Morocco when you were still with your traveling with your your your friend your girlfriend, and just like see meeting these people and they're on the beach like people you had met along the way and you were like, "Look at this life. Everybody's nobody's kind of everybody's just kind of doing whatever they want a little bit, right?" And it kind of that opened your eyes to it and then

15:23 so, good, right? Yeah., There, was, a, bit, of, a, phenomenon. They call it the hippie trail. I mean no one selfidentified as a hippie. But like in California, New York, people were in those days would if you wanted to drop out, you sort of went to a commune in a cold place in Northern California right?

15:37 Or, somewhere, upstate, New, York., But, in Europe, people would head south, you know, to Morocco or India or Lebanon and uh, you know, kind of like see how long they could travel. I'd meet people who travel for years. That sound that sounds like a a really sort of um uh contributing factor that that it was in it was in society then it is I think today. Uh more common place for folks to just you know pick up and get out and and explore a bunch of different corners um for a few years and then presumably maybe come back and and re-enter mainstream. Yeah. Was that was that a bit more part of the culture than it is today?

16:16 Yeah., You, know,, I, think, the, the, world could use a little bit more of that today. You see these kids, they're so anxious and they go to school and they're having panic attacks and they're they're

16:25 you, got, to, get, out, and, you, got, to immediately start uh uh providing and and and accomplishing.

16:30 I, meet, these, kids,, they, say, "I'm graduating from college. I'm starting work on Monday, right? Starting my career on Monday." So, we'll take a take a break, right?

16:37 You, know,, the, world's, like, the, best educator out there traveling around. Out of curiosity, Tom, you do do you give that did you impart that on your own sons just uh you know as much as you're comfortable with talking?

16:48 Yeah,, I, do., I, encourage, them, to, they become both of them have become good travelers and they're very comfortable uh you know going anywhere making their own plans and really proud of them in that regard.

16:58 Did, you, notice, a, big, change, when, they came back? Well,, they, they, didn't, go, like, uh, I, mean I traveled for a couple of years. They they they really um you know would take actually my oldest son he kind of went to work almost right away but they they none of them have really t made extensive trips like I had.

17:15 Right., Right. They're, more, caught, up, in, this, time. Go, back, to, the, to, the, Canada., So, did, you end up bringing those clothes and all those goods into the US or No.

17:23 Yeah., It, was, so, easy. You, just, you, just But, you, did, it, yourself, though,, Tom. Why? Well, I enlisted a guy I knew in Canada whose father used to be like a rum runner and uh he was ready for another trail, another trick.

17:36 Wow., It's, like, smoking. You, came, You, came, on, the, boat, with, the stuff yourself though.

17:41 Yeah., Yeah. So,, you, know,, you, go, through, the thousand islands, there's all these islands and

17:46 you, know,, then, no, one, knows, where, the border is really. So, you know, and there's boats floating around, no one knows who's who and ice wasn't around.

17:54 Right., Right., Right., Did, you, end, up learning any of the languages over there?

17:58 Uh, in, Afghan,, you, know,, in, India,, you get pretty spoiled because people speak English a lot. But I mean, I could move my way around in Hindi. But in Afghanistan, I picked up a fair amount of Farsy, which is the language. I mean Dari, they could it's a dialect of Farsy. I I could get myself around the bizars and, you know, order food and take taxis. And

18:18 do, you, retain, it, now? Not, so, much. Yeah., Not, so, much. Wait., So,, so, Tom,, so, actually, is, this, is a good uh you you you go out there because you've got this as Jason called this wonderless or this desire to get out in the world and we talked but there's not enough of that but you kind of bring a little bit you leave on on the sort of because you've coming you don't have a great corporate experience in that you're working on Charmin and GI Joe and you're like [ __ ] all this you go out into the world and you come back and you kind of bring a little bit of that rebel attitude with you as you because you re-enter into a corporate environment a little it, but you bring a little bit of that sort of that rebellious nature into what you do. You start to work on pretty immediately on MTV and can you talk to us how I mean it's like a perfect you're the perfect guy for that cuz you you were bringing

19:07 that rebel spirit into the corporate world. Well,, you, know,, I, really, loved, traveling and being over there and I when I came back I was sort of wiped out of that life. What else do I really love? Well I was really I I was a major fanatic about music and rock and roll and

19:22 good, time, for, it. I, caught, an, article, in, Billboard magazine. I started studying where could I get a job and there was a guy who said, you know, we're going to start a video music channel that's going to be the cable the the TV revolution is starting and they had already started Nickelodeon

19:39 and, they, had, a, thing, called, the, movie channel. So, I got uh an interview.

19:43 My, brother, knew, a, guy, who, had, just gotten to work there. So I got an interview and I made this case and funny there was a guy named Bob Pitman.

19:51 Yeah. Who, I, was, in, like, 32, at, the, time. And, the, interview, was, with, what, company?

19:56 This, is, called, then, it, was, called, Warner AMX satellite entertainment company.

20:00 Wow. Doesn't, roll, off, the, tongue., It, was, a joint venture of Warner and American Express.

20:05 Yeah. Wow. So, this, guy, Bob, Pitman, who, was, 26 never, bothered, going, to, college., He, was a big star. They call him the long-haired oneeyed hippie. and he programmed these radio stations like with Don Imus.

20:18 He, he, would, have, got, along, with, my, mom. My mom had one. Anyway,, he, I, he, I, interviewed, him., I said, "I'm your guy." They said, "Well first thing, we're looking for people with no experience in television."

20:29 Mhm. That, that, was, those, were, almost, like, the magic words. I said "Wow, sure." They didn't even have television where I've been living the last eight years. So, uh and I'm a music fanatic and you're looking for entrepreneurs and I know business and blah blah blah. And then he goes, "You were a hashy smuggler weren't you?" I go, "Not really." And he goes, "Not really. That means you were."

20:52 Yeah. So,, you're, hired., So,, I, got, a, job, on this initial team that started uh MTV.

20:59 And, who, was, that, team?, It, was, you, and Bob Pitman. And you? Me, and, Bob, Pitman., There, was, a, guy, named John Sykes. There was a guy named

21:06 Oh,, boy., John, Sykes. Steve, Casey., Uh,, who, else, was, there? Carolyn Baker, Sue Steinberg and there was about six or seven of us. Fred Cyber, who was like uh really sort of the creative genius of the group. And uh, you know, we were said, you know get this thing uh, on the air by August 1st. We had like eight months to put this whole channel together. So, wow.

21:32 And, we, will, be, right, back. And, now, back, to, the, show. Did music videos were they already kind of happening on other platforms or somewhere and that's why you knew it would work or

21:48 No,, they, there, was, really, very, little, uh awareness about music videos in the states. They they existed in Europe

21:55 right? Because, the, radio, stations, there, were still really regulated. Didn't play any music. So the record companies there would make these videos and you could see them like in record stores or they would put them on tops of top of the pops on the, you know, on the BBC.

22:09 Wow., So,, but, America, and, I, I, I, at, one summer I had a girlfriend in Berlin. I remember just going to she would work and I go to a record store and just watch music videos all day. It's one of those kind of days. I was like thinking this is like a video wonderland. So, I I I said this is you know people are going to like this

22:27 sort, of, build, it, and, they, will, come, kind of thing. You you guys were the egg and then the chicken came along or vice versa and like those early videos. What was the early one? Like is it remember like the radio star

22:38 was, the, first, one? Frankie, goes, to, Hollywood. Um, and, uh, I, feel, like, Dire, Straits, had one of the early ones.

22:45 Dire, Straits, had, a, bunch, of, early, ones called Skate Away. Well,, I, was, going, to, get, into, Dire Straits because it's actually in it's a big part of the book, Jay. That's a really good point. First of all, Video Killed the Radio Star was the first video you guys aired right when you first launched. Is that true?

23:01 Ironic. And, Yeah., And, and, you, guys, also, you started this thing, but I I've heard stories from you and from Sykes that like you guys had like a basically like a one like a closet with like a phone with like Cole waiting on it, right? You guys it wasn't a big operation

23:17 that, that's, called, that, the, cheap, skates second line. Yeah., So, then, you, guys, started, this, and then you but then Dire Straits had they they gave you guys the gift of all gifts because it was Mark Nofler from what I understand and what I've read wrote that as a sort of a um almost like a a rebuttal to the sort of you know music video and the corporatization of music and all that. Is that right? And then

23:42 money, for, nothing., Yeah., It, was, all about our vapidity that we were vapid.

23:46 Yeah., And, yet, the, line, in, that, that really sold you guys was I, want, my, MTV.

23:54 Yeah., Yeah. We, had, Sting, sing, it., And, in, those, days, you know, those kind of bands could be worldwide, you know, could have worldwide hits.

24:01 Yeah. And, wherever, I, would, go, because, we, took MTV around the world. You people would know about us through that song.

24:07 Wow. MTV, had, been, preceded, by, that, by, Money for Nothing. So Mark Knoffler gave us the greatest of gifts. It was unreal like that idea that like he did this thing as a and and then but it became like the almost the rallying cry and you guys also got that that very line. Uh you you guys I mean you and your whole team at various points got different artists to scream out I want my MTV on camera and that was your

24:36 Yeah., Because, the, uh, the, cable, companies didn't like us and didn't want to put us on and they they these were older guys. they didn't get it and they didn't want to pay. We were just somebody who's going to cut into their margins. So, we knew that wherever we were and for the first couple years we were only like in these towns in the Midwest like Tulsa. People loved us. They couldn't believe it. But no one in New York or LA had it and had never even seen it. So, we knew if we could get people these people to call their cable companies and demand their MTV, you could eventually force these people to put us on. And that that really worked. That's cool. with with videos now having kind of cycled I mean they still sort of exist but my god you guys you birthed it and it it it cycled into like just such a phenomenon the whole the the addition of videos to the whole music industry and now it's sort

25:24 of settled into a place of sort of a a sidecar kind of thing. What do you what do you feel that that that the music video has has uh what what positive of it has remained in the music industry? has has it been additive? Um

25:40 yeah,, you, know,, music, videos, are, still popular. They just they don't exist on MTV. That's become sort of a reality show channel.

25:49 And, m, they, make, as, many, music, videos today as they used to. A lot of them are made more economically, but you know they don't

25:57 you, can, get, them, all, on, the, internet, on on YouTube or on Vivo. Uh, and you get them on demand, so you don't have to sit around watching some channel to wait to see Nirvana. You can just click on it and watch it right away. So, that sort of killed the MTV linear network model.

26:15 You, guys, would, uh, at, the, end, of, every video, you'd you'd put the name of the song, the album, the band, and the director.

26:22 Yeah. And, it, you, guys, launched, a, bunch, of really incredible directors into the film industry.

26:28 Yeah., You, know,, the, whole, there, was, a whole bunch of them. And there was a whole issue after after a couple years a director said, "Hey, how come our names aren't on there?

26:36 We, want, to, get, some, credit." Yeah., And yeah,, David, Fincher,, too. David, Fincher, was, a, great, Russ, Russell McKe. There was a Spike Jones. I mean lots of people came up that way

26:46 when, you, when, the, the, the, I, just, we'll talk about MTV ending in just a minute but the initial um like the launch the the logo of the rocket taking off. Uh is that that was the first image ever right?

27:02 Yes. Of, MTV., And, was, that, just, what, it, is, which is like we're launching a new show?

27:09 Well,, we, didn't, have, any, money, and, we realized that all this NASA footage was public domain

27:15 so, we, could, rip, off, NASA, and, man's greatest moment and kind of make it our own.

27:21 Yeah. So,, we, got, it, for, free. Oh,, that's, great., And, the, logo, that everybody loved and became iconic, we got that for $1,000 from some guy's town.

27:31 And, it, was, sort, of, a, kind, of, you, guys, I'm sure, were kind of tongue and cheek how grandiose this whole thing is going to. We're putting our flag on the moon and yeah, here comes something.

27:39 Yeah,, it, right. We're, going, to, rip, off, man's, greatest moment and this and put our flag there.

27:44 That's, amazing. Tom,, what, was, the, moment, you, guys realized that you had really broken through? I mean, there were so many I remember as a kid, you know, there were like like the like when the thriller video hit, it was just everywhere. It was like

27:56 every, hour, every, hour. Was, there, a, moment, for, you, where, you went like, "Holy [ __ ] we really got something, here., We're, we're we're shifting culture."

28:04 Yeah,, it, was, a, slow, build., You, know,, it took us a while to get to New York and LA where people could see us and then they could talk about us in the media. But then, I mean, two things. One was Thriller, Michael Jackson, Beat It, you know, and people say, "Oh, big artists are making videos and with big production budgets and they're irritating that."

28:21 And, the, second, thing, was, Live, Aid. Yeah. Oh,, yeah. Live, a live, aid., You, know,, ABC, said,, "We'll, run Bob Gelof came ABC said we'll run three hours of it." Sort of a highlight show. We said "Hey, man. We'll we'll run the whole thing for 16 hours. We got nothing else to do."

28:37 So,, we, It, was, like, the, biggest, show ever. And that really uh really legitimized this.

28:43 Wow., Yeah., There, was, nowhere, else, to, see your favorite artist really unless you bought a ticket to a concert. It was the only channel that you could see these people.

28:52 And, the, VJs, were, cool, too., Remember, like Mark Goodman and uh Martha Quinn.

28:57 Martha, Quinn. You, know,, you, people, forget,, but, you know, for its day, it wasn't like a flying car stuff or anything, but MTV really was revolutionary. It was a whole new visual language for people. Of course, we've gone so far past that now but it was s sort of a groundbreaker in that way.

29:13 Did, you, guys, end, up, having, all, these, you got to know a lot of artists too through this, through, this?, I, at at at, first, you guys were trying to launch and get them to do stuff and then then there must have been the tipping point where they're just coming at you and all the artists are whining and dining you guys right? Sending you Rolexes and stuff.

29:32 I, didn't, get, any, Rolexes. Yeah., Okay. I, got, I, got, a, Timex. No, but I mean it was true. We used to get like four four or five videos a week. Then we were getting 50 or 60. And so there was record companies set up whole departments just to service MTV.

29:49 Yeah., I, bet, I'll, bet, you, guys, were, a real bell of the ball. Uh all these uh record label heads were probably uh working you guys like they used to work radio stations, right? Where they would ask for certain placement of certain videos at certain days and times maybe.

30:05 Yeah., Yeah., It, was, uh, we, were, the biggest radio station in the nation right?

30:10 And it, didn't, always, bring, out, the, best, in some of the people at MTV, you know when you had that kind of

30:17 Sure. power. And, and, what, did, you, think, or, feel, when just recently they announced it's no longer right. Well, they announced that in the UK for a bunch of channels that just play music videos and that the MTV channel that just plays reality shows you know, which really

30:35 bugs, me,, but, whatever., That's, still there. But I, you know, it needed to die a death because it can't exist really and be a business if it when you're competing with all these videos on the internet. And it's not like you have exclusive videos that the people that the internet doesn't have, right? I mean, there's no business there. It's not going to grow. I do think that the new the Ellison's and Paramount have a chance to really reimagine what MTV could be digitally and uh and figure out a because figure out a way to put together something more interesting than out there now, which is a lot of sort of siloed algorithm driven.

31:15 Yeah., Well,, those, fast, channels,, if, you if you if you want a fast channel, you could just pick your favorite artist like Taylor Swift and just click on her and just watch all her videos, right?

31:24 One, one-stop, shopping., So,, speaking, of which, uh uh so you're at MTV and then you guys decide to then you have a bunch of other things that I mentioned in the intro, Nickelodeon, VH1, and Comedy Central. And this is great. So, Comedy Central ends up becoming this huge thing, but it it st the way it started was kind of uh in response to what somebody else was doing. I love this story. Walk us through that a little bit. How how Comedy Central came to be.

31:51 Okay., Uh, I, was, having, a, staff, meeting one day and someone slips me a piece of paper to say that HBO's just announced they're going to do a comedy channel. They're going to call it the Comedy Channel. And we went, "Oh, wow. They're getting into our business." They were the pay TV people. We were like the little low

32:08 rent, basic, people., We, said,, "Well, that, means, they're, going, to, get, in, our business. They have a lot of money. They have all these You have do all these big standup shows with Robin Williams and everything. What are we going to do?" I said "Well, we're going to announce our own comedy channel the same day. Let's announce we're doing one, too, because then we'll be in every article that's ever written about that their competitor is also doing a comedy channel."

32:31 We, didn't, have, a, name, or, anything., But we had this thing called Nick at Night and uh we would take like old TV shows and repurpose them and repackage them and everything and said the worst comes the worst. We can do like a version of that. But let's let's put our hat in the ring.

32:46 And, so, we, had, a, big, battle, with, them, for uh a couple of years and finally we merged and it became Comedy Central. thought and they they cuz I thought if this worked for them then they'd launch a movie channel, a music channel and a kids channel as well and be head-to-head competitors with a lot more money than us. So

33:03 So, you, basically, started, you, hear, our competitors are starting a comedy channel and in that moment you go let's announce it so anytime they get mentioned we get mentioned and we don't even have a product yet.

33:16 Right. And, you, said, and, and, you, were, like, and, I remember reading in the book you were like you said to uh Frank Beyond, right? who who you worked with over there and you said to him you you're like look it'll buy us a couple days and then by the time we have to make the actual announcement we'll have time to come up with, a, name, and, what, we're, going to, do. Is that true?

33:33 Yeah., He, was, uh, I, put, him, on, the, speaker phone to my staff and he says yeah because he had been he had left HBO and he did not have a great relationship with Michael Fuches who who said he was like the the king of this was his baby. So Frank was all in, you know, fighting like tooth and nail against uh we were like a gorilla operation fighting against HBO. And I think HBO couldn't believe uh you know that we we we we did as well as we did. It was all in smoke and mirrors.

34:03 And, so, when, did, you, come, up, with, the name? How did you come up with programming and the whole thing for the channel?

34:09 Well,, initially, we, called, it, like, the two days later was we called it HA the TV comedy channel cuz It was Holl with an exclamation point.

34:19 Sure., Sure. You, know,, and, we, had, a, great, logo., Uh, and it was TV comedy because what they were doing was just they were in a ripped like funny scenes out of uh, you know, TV shows and movies and some standup guys in front of brick walls and just put them together when they have like V their equivalent of VJs. It would be like an MTV model. But, you know, we didn't think that would work. We actually had tried that once. So we we thought, well, we'll just run comedy shows. So I I did things to create headlines. I hired Fred Silverman, who programmed all the big networks at one time. We did deals with like Brian Graaser and uh you know, we licensed stuff from Norman Lear and we just would continue to throw out announcements. So we we got Saturday Night Live, the original five years of that, you know 75 to 80. And we built up a you know, a decent show. And then when we merged you know, we had to come up with the

35:13 name, us and HBO, and Comedy Central was the name. And, then, the, turning, point, for, Comedy Central in your book that you describe is what what really set you guys off was when you hired John Stewart. Is that right?

35:26 We, had, hired, John, Stewart, before., He, had been He was on MTV in the late 80s early 90s. He had a show called The John Stewart Show.

35:34 Yeah,, I, remember, that., Yeah. It, it, ran, for, a, while., So, John, was, sort of in the stable. We never found him. And we actually had a guy named Craig Clarebornne on the Daily Show first who was different type of guy. And then we replaced him with John Stewart. And John's vision was, "Look, let's let's let's just not do pop culture stuff. Why don't we take a crack at the news? I'll be a fake news man."

35:56 Yeah. And, uh, he, got, his, voice, doing, that, and just got better and better. I mean, I just I just watched uh you know, he's on every Monday night again still. I mean he's so

36:06 brilliant., He, should, run, for, president. Perfect., But, we, had,, what, came, out, of that was we had John Stewart, Steven Cobear, John Oliver, Samantha B, uh Bill Maher was on our channel first, uh Dave Chappelle. I mean, it was a good launching place for young talent. Jimmy Kimmel had the man show. You may remember that. Yeah, that

36:26 I, mean, Tom, I, you, think, about, you, name these people all these people musical artists uh comedic voices brilliant voices who came up under sort of the umbrella of stuff that you did. Do you ever do you get a little satisfaction when you watch people now all these years later like yeah I was right about all of this. Yeah. And in truth, I didn't I didn't I wasn't the person who like picked everybody. I mean, but we had a great team there and we were always looking for edgy new talent that was coming up and get them, you know get them young and then they'd leave us like Bill Maher was on Politically Incorrect and then ABC hired him and then they fired him and he ended up at HBO and his show now is spectacular.

37:07 And, so, you, see, now, the, front, line, of people who were sort of like the resistance almost

37:13 politically., It's, all, these, comedians and they all so many of them had their roots with us although they've been in other places for a while. Coar Kimmel Maher uh and so on

37:25 and, Steve, Carell, too and, and, Carell, Carell. Yeah. So, then, Yeah., Go, ahead.

37:30 No,, go, ahead. Well,, I, was, going, to, say, so, then, because I want to get into all the one stuff you know. God, we don't have enough time for everything. Tom, your life is too full. So you you while you're at Viacom you become CEO of Viacom ultimately and you work for a guy called Subar Redstone. Uh which was uh he was a difficult um boss to serve. Is that a good way to put it?

37:56 That's, very, fair., Yes. He, fired, he, he, fired, every, CEO including, me. Including, you., And, so, you, knew, so, he hires you as CEO and that means what? That means your days are numbered basically.

38:08 That, means, how, long, till, I, get, fired. But the thing is he always liked to fire people on holiday weekends. So like he fired Frank Pyondi on the 4th of July. He fired Mel Karmas in like on Memorial Day and I got it on Labor Day.

38:22 So, if, you, could, make, it, through, the summer season pretty much you had another year of good times ahead.

38:27 Wow., And, one, of, the, reasons, one, of, the one of the things that I know there are a lot of issue and you talk about it in the book but and you and I have talked about this before it's widely known there was a thing called one of the first social media sites out there was a thing called MySpace and it was up for grabs and he wanted it and I'm

38:49 still, on, it., I'm, still, on, it. Right., You're, Sean's, still, on, it., It's his main source of communication. And so he wanted MySpace and and so did uh News Corp, right? Is that is that fair?

39:01 Ser, had, never, heard, of, MySpace., He didn't hear about it until he found out that Rert bought it and we had then he found out we'd been kicking the tires and uh we didn't we never made a bid to buy it, but Rupert bought it and uh he went on the covers of all these trade magazines as the new media visionary and that really annoyed Sumner.

39:21 Yeah., and, that, he, bought, it, for, $560 million. I'll just say ultimately Rupert sold it for $30 million.

39:28 Wow. Wow. I'm, still, waiting, for, a, thank, you, note. That, was, a, reason, he, one, of, the, reasons he cited for firing me

39:37 and, Right., One, of, the, reasons, which, is you did him such a favor. And the other thing was uh uh you you early on saw the power uh the potential maybe of YouTube. Is that true?

39:51 Yeah. Yeah. YouTube, kind, of, took, away, all, of, MTV's mojo ultimately. I mean, who could have imagined what YouTube's become today? If you check out like YouTube TV and everything, it's amazing.

40:02 And, it's, been, around, forever, and, they still say it's the quote future. But, it's, been, around, if, alien, landed, on the, Earth, and, you you, trying, to, explain what YouTube is or was in in its in its in its inception, how would you describe it? Is it is it is it just a free sort of destination for uh usergenerated videos? You just kind of upload anything you want and it's just a gathering place for all that. Is that what YouTube brilliant at its core is?

40:30 That's, what, it, was, initially, and, that was like 2005 they launched it and it was initially you could anybody could upload anything and kids could comment on it. You could send stuff. It was a form of social media personto person and that was that was a whole new idea. And then like SNL would put up like some stuff like with Andy Samberg. I'm trying to think some of they they would you they media companies would use it as sort of a promotional vehicle. So they started to get more promotional content on there and then they've just

41:01 and, did, you, want, to, you, wanted, to, buy it? that you saw we, we, we, thought, this, is, a, whole, new thing

41:08 and, the, world, is, going, in, this, you, know we had the TV revolution now we got this digital revolution and this digital revolution this this social media thing where people can communicate directly with each other and people like us aren't gatekeepers anymore you know we thought how do we get in on this you know you got to own a platform

41:26 right and, we, made, a, I, wanted, to, make, a, bid, on it um but it was difficult for a company like us. I mean, it ultimately Google bought it for 1.6 billion. Uh the Viacom board thought it was a copyright infringement machine. It would make us liable for lots of lawsuits. And they ultimately they after I left they sued him for a billion dollars and lost 10 years later.

41:50 But, wow, no, one, could, have, imagined, what, YouTube was able to morph into right?, you, know,, which, is

41:57 but, you, did, see, you, did, see, that, there was the the the potential even though you didn't know exactly what it would become. Imagine how different the world would have looked had Viacom purchased. I mean for 1.6 billion is the right now the deal of the century.

42:11 They're, they're, worth, almost, $600 billion here too. Wow., That's, unbelievable.

42:16 I, mean, that, could, buy, all, all, the, media companies a couple times over. Wow., And, then

42:21 $600, billion., On, the, side, of, that,, you also helped these guys start Vice Media as well, right? You were instrumental in getting

42:28 We, worked, with, Vice, for, a, bunch, of years. Yeah. Yeah. That was a wild ride.

42:32 Yeah. That's, another, fun. That, was, a, lot, of, fun,, too,, though. Yeah., Yeah.

42:37 And, it, crashed. Yeah., Yeah., Yeah., That, was It's, still, around,, though,, isn't, it?, No,

42:41 it's, barely, around., They, have, a, little studio operation. You know, they kind of uh imploded a bit. You know, they had a great run when they had that HBO series on that really kind of made them famous. They had a whole suite of YouTube channels. And uh

42:56 does, any, after, after, all, of, these successes, does any part of you still want to be involved in media?

43:03 You, know,, I'm, happy, now., I'm, not, in, it. I mean, it's really, it seems like a lot of the, funds, been, taken, out, of, it., A, lot of the money's been taken out. You look at the these companies that are sort of stripped down and are forced to consolidate. You know, I came up it was a more optimistic time. things were moving in an upward direction, you know things were ascendant.

43:26 Now, it's, like, uh, you, know,, well,, I, have to tell you guys, you're all in Hollywood. Uh you know what the the situation?

43:32 Barely,, Tom., Barely. Yeah. We'll, be, right, back. And, now, back, to, the, show. It does seem like though that we are at a bit of an inflection point that's not too dissimilar from uh sort of the the launch of something like a YouTube where

43:55 um, were, it, not, for, the, invention, of, the internet and then the personal communication device you know those two things together uh were the necessary components, that, make, up, a, a a, YouTube now we've got something similar perhaps apps in in AI in its ability to be transformative and create these new platforms or entertainment options or what we have no idea about. Some some ideas are scary, some ideas are are are interesting, but like maybe we're at another kind of launch um moment. Um I I'm sure you've done I'm sure you read very interesting books and and niche articles and periodicals and things like that that does it does it not hold some kind of interest to you this sort of this moment of pioneering maybe?

44:48 Yeah., And, the, whole, AI, thing, is, sort, of daunting. On one hand, you've got people saying that these it's going to create these machines are going to kill us all. And on the other hand, it's going to open up this great new world and it's going to put then someone else say "Yeah, it's going to get put 20% unemployment on."

45:04 But, it, seems, like, the, big, brains, like you are really the only people that are uniquely qualified to really kind of cut through all that and say, "Yeah, it could be this, it could be that." But it c it also can be steered and can only be really properly steered by somebody that has a combination of your creative acumen and your business acumen and your time in the industry. So do do you are you not interested or excited to to kind of grandfather some of that in there?

45:33 I'm, sort, of, following, it, all., It's, not that there's not a lot of smart people involved. you know, these AI guys from you know, you always say, well, they're from up north, and you can see the the battle in in Hollywood.

45:44 They, need, the, media, savvy,, too,, though. Yeah., They, they're, not, this, media, savvy, but, you know, they're going to create new media. I Yeah, I'm curious and I'm watching and it's they're just the amount of money that's being invested is just mindboggling.

45:59 But, they, need, someone, like, you, to, steer it though. You you got you know I, off, the, bench., Yeah.

46:05 Come, on., Get, in, there. Wait,, Tom., Tom,, speaking, of, coming, off the bench, if you were if you were if you were 26 and you uh 26-y old Tom Fston today and you were just coming back from doing your being off the grid for a couple years and you were you were going to start in this world today, what would you launch?

46:23 Yeah., Yeah., Yeah,, that's, a, good question. Well,, you, know,, I'd, want, to, do, something that I really liked. So, I'd probably find my way somehow to the entertainment media business. you know, we're probably there and say, well, now I mean to to your point, it is sort of in an inflection point and you want to align yourself with someone who's smart. That's a business that's ascendant. So if you get in it and you choose the right place and they got the right plan you're likely to be able to move up. And uh

46:49 I, I, don't, know, which, which, place, that is, but that's probably where I would gravitate. And I feel confident that they're going to figure this out somehow.

46:58 Yeah., in, a, way, that, that, doesn't, put everybody out of work in the entertainment business because uh

47:05 but, I, just, heard, something, today., It's some uh they have a channel 4 in the UK has uh these newscasters that are AI generated that sound exactly exactly like

47:17 really, exactly, like, it, could, be, one, of you guys talking. Well,, it, it's, well, yeah, Sean's, got, wires coming out of him. Um uh uh well it it sounds like you are you are you are um satisfied for sure with with your accomplishments as as well you should be. Um, and so have you have you given yourself a chance to sit back and and and and and look at that guy who went off to India and Afghanistan and and and and started in advertising and got his MBA and all that stuff. Have you have you have you landed at a spot that uh that is satisfying to to you given where you started your frustrations early on? And it seems like you you managed to create a a space for yourself that that combined all the things that you loved and that you were good at.

48:11 Well,, I, kind, of, went, full, circle., I mean, I look if I look at my life in chapters to chapter now, I'm do a lot of not for-profit work. for like 18 years I've been working with Bono uh as the board chair of this thing the one campaign that really focuses on extreme poverty infectious disease in Africa. Okay. And I find that very satisfying work. You know, we have red. You've probably familiar with some red stuff uh, you know, with the Apple and everything. And that's interesting. Keeps your arm into the private sector.

48:38 But, you, know,, and, it, gives, me, a, chance, to, to really explore, Africa, a, bit, more,, which, I, also enjoy. But, uh, so I'm sort of in that phase of life, I guess you could say. I'm I'm you know it's not like giving back but I'm I enjoy this kind of work and I like being an observer of what's going on in uh in the media and entertainment business.

49:00 Well,, you, also, it, is, giving, back, and, you did start you know you you started a media company in Afghanistan which still exists today.

49:07 Yeah,, I, did, that., I, went, back, to Afghanistan for 10 years until the Taliban arrived and built up a TV network there which was fascinating. and and not and not not not the not for profofit but meaning like you did that as it's not like that that was like going to be a huge windfall. It was more it was sort of giving back to a place that you you really loved and you described the people especially early on in the 70s when you first got there and what a wonderful place Afghanistan was and now you've got these people who were there sort of holding the line still still doing it right still broadcasting and in that time I remember you you would take uh uh young people who were there who were working for the company and send them over here and do semesters working at USC u media school and stuff and give them and educate them and I mean that was a real thing that you did for a long time.

49:58 Yeah., I, mean,, I, never, escaped, my fascination with Afghanistan and it gets a bad rap these days, admittedly, but they're wonderful people and I was lured back there to start this TV net station which became very powerful and in terms I thought it was a way to, you know change help change society, connect Afghans to each other, to the outside world for the first time for, you know women liberate women. It just seeing a man and a woman newscaster side by side sends a huge signal. Wow. We brought music back after the tal, you know, the Taliban had outlawed everything. So, we brought back music with the arts and

50:33 and, it's, still, running, that, the, the, the network. Well,, it's, been,, you, know,, it's, been we've now had we had like 250 advertisers. It was now we're down to one.

50:43 Wow. And, it's, energy, drinks, like, Red, Bull kind of stuff. That's what they have there because there's no alcohol. But we've now switched into doing programming for school for women. So we're doing educational programming and instead of advertisers we're funded by people like Gates and other foundations Malalo Foundation and we we're making these episodes in Afghanistan inexpensively. We have a diaspora group of Afghan educators that help develop the curriculum and

51:10 so, it's, just, kind, of, keeping, people employed in this very difficult time. And

51:14 but, these, these, programs, for, for educating women are still are now allowed.

51:19 Yes., because, we've, picked, sort, of, non ideological subjects like mathematics physics, things like that. I mean

51:25 Got, it. And, uh so, there's, they're, allowing, it., Yes., And uh and there's a whole sort of digital part to it as well.

51:36 It's, you, know, it's, it's, just, awful what's going on there. But uh yeah,, for, sure., This, way, the, business stays alive and you can employ 500 people and uh you know you're women have basically been erased from public spaces in Afghanistan. They're not even allowed to talk when they're in public. Yeah.

51:53 You, can, imagine., So, women, who, used, to, be able in that 20-year interval when we were there, which we blew, but

52:00 you, know,, people, went, to, school, became parliamentarians, became lawyers became, you know, now they're just you extremely depressed and at home.

52:08 Wow., Man,, Tom,, you, really, you, really, I know. What a life, dude. And you've you've done it all. I mean, you you do this kind of stuff and you you you helped start MTV and you have a clothing company from a and you're and you're smuggling clothes across the network. Huh. And you talk in the book, you take you take Summoner Redstone to a sex club right?

52:29 In, Thailand,, uh, which, you, talk, about, in the book, which is crazy. Just, a, I, implore, you, to, read, this, book.

52:36 Is, that, true? Yes., Yes., I, did. That's, crazy. Just, give, us, a, little, taste, of, not, too much of a taste.

52:44 You, don't, want, the, full, taste., But, we, I kept telling him, "You got to come to Asia. We've got MTV in India. We've got it in Taio China and Taiwan. We got in Indonesia. It's the It's like the great market. You know, we were still really positive about how we could do in Asia. And he had never really been." And then he called me up to his office one day and he says, "You know, I've made up my mind. I'd like to finally come to Asia with you." Where do you want to go? He goes, "I want to go to Bangkok." I go "We don't really have any business in Bangkok. You know, that's like one place that there's a company there that's going to lay cable, but they haven't started yet." But he wanted to go to Bangkok, and then

53:20 he, told, me, quietly, he'd, like, to, go, to some sex clubs. Oh, my, god. I, uh, you, know,, I, had, to, go, uh, do, some advance work, you know.

53:32 Uhhuh. To, get, him, in, a, sex, club., wasn't, really I'd been to Bangkok before a bunch of times, but I I was not an expert on the sex club front, which is quite a scene there. One of the most interesting things is that, you know, it's become because of the Vietnam War, it's become like the commercial sex capital of the world, and they have plane loads of Japanese and Germans men that come in to run wild in the various red light districts. And I'm thinking, wait, those were the two axis powers

54:01 right?, And, now, and, now, they're, invading Bangkok. But yeah, I took Sumar to a uh I did my job as an loyal employee and shephered him around.

54:12 You, had, to, take, your, boss,, you, describe and and you guys go into a room and this couple are lowered on a motorcycle having having actual sex on the motorcycle and you're there with your boss and then you he looks at you kind of like we're good now and you just let yourself out, right?

54:28 Well,, no,, I, had, to, take, him, to, another club after that. But the interesting thing about that club was it was just filled with like regular people, tie people and everything and the the mo you hear this roar and a motorcycle slowly comes down the small Harley and there's this couple on there and they're naked and they're all greased up and they're doing it and guys revving the engine.

54:44 Oh, my, god. And, after, a, while after a while the people in the bar the locals they're not even looking you know it's like I people are fornicating on a motorcycle two feet over your head.

54:57 Would, you, like, another, beer? So then they got pulled back up into the ceiling.

55:04 Yeah. And, then, you've, got, I, mean, you, did everything you talk about. I mean you literally people go like from here to Timbuktu. You literally went to Timbuktu. I want to end on you the time you went to the music festival. I remember when you and Jimmy were going to go you were talking about it and you guys you and Jimmy Buffett went to this music festival, right?

55:23 It's, a, festival, in, the, desert, out, in, the middle of the Sahara. Yeah., So,, how, did, talk, about, Burning, Man or talk about your journey?

55:30 Burning, Man, with, people, on, camels., It was like the local to egg people would come. It would be like uh all I love we love West African music. So, I got a few other people. Chris Blackwell. Yeah.

55:41 My, friend, Bill, Flanigan., We, we, flew, to uh Bamako, the capital of Mali. And then we got a plane. We we took the Jimmy Jet. We flew to Timbuktu. And we land in the Timbuktu airport. People there's nothing there. There's no planes there. People are just running at the at our plane trying to sell us daggers, you know, and it was like you're in the middle of nowhere. Looks like it's like a town in the desert. And we had to drive a bunch of hours from there to get to the uh

56:10 festival. And, you, had, your, own, security, with, you and a driver. Talk about that.

56:14 Yeah,, we, had, one, security, guy, from Bamako and then we had another guy and then we when we got to Timbuktu said, we got to find a guy who knows how to get that get there. So, we need a local guy who can find his way to the festival. So, we hire this guy and we set out uh one morning to go to the festival. And we're winding our way through the sand dunes and going and going and going. After about four or five hours, uh the security guy goes, "Stop, stop." And he g the local guide and gets him out and they start screaming each other.

56:46 We don't know what's going on. Then he puts the guy in a headlet, takes out a gun, sticks it to his head. He says "I'm going to kill this [ __ ]

56:53 cuz, he, is, taking, us., We're, going, in, the wrong direction." And he was taking us to an al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda was kidnapping tourists in that area. And like there was just over the border in Moritania there. There was a Germans they had been holding for a year and we were on our way there.

57:09 And, uh, he, said,, "I'm, going, to", and, I'm, a little bit buzzed and I'm looking at this. I'm going, "Jesus Christ, man. I mean, I just came out in the desert to hear some music and now I'm going to witness a murder and I got a turban on my head.

57:23 Jesus. So,, we, Jimmy, said,, "Let, the, guy, free." We just leave him in the desert and we uh picked up like a guy who was a hitchhiker. He had a cell phone with a Bob Marley ringtone and that was enough. He said he knew how to get to the festival. So, we we put him on board and off we went.

57:42 You, know,, you, could, just, watch, MTV., You don't have to go across that. It's unbelievable.

57:47 What, a, life. It, sounded, like, a, good, idea. Yeah. Well,, um,, good, news, for,, uh,, if, you're like me or you finish listening to this guy talk and you're envious that you have not lived a life even halfway as interesting as him. The good news is we've got a book to read about it.

58:03 Yeah. Um,, so, thank, you, for, writing, that. Unplug, adventures, from, MTV, to, Timbuktu on sale as of November 18th. uh from the great uh Tom Fen proof that there's a big world out there. Get out into it, which is I I say all the time. And boy, did you do that. You you are you are an inspiration to a lot of people including me. You always have been. You're a great dude. And uh and honestly, I read this book just I devoured it. It's so good.

58:31 So, Tom,, thank, you, man, for, take, this, has been a long time coming. I'm so psyched that you came.

58:35 Thank, you., Will, thank, all, of, you., It's great to great to chat with you guys. I'm a reg I'm a regular fan.

58:40 Yeah., Nice, meeting, you,, Tom. Love, the, podcast., So, thank, you, so, much, for, coming, on, and talking to us.

58:45 Thank, you., The, great, Tom, Fen,, you, guys. Bye,, guys. Bye,, Tom., Bye. Thank, you., Bye., Bye.

58:50 Bye,, pal. Oh,, boy., I, I, I'm I'm, uplifted, and, also depressed at the same time.

58:58 Exactly., You, know, that's, exactly, how, I, feel., I, know. I'm, like,, [ __ ], You, know,, there, was, a there was a time when like I think I've probably told this boring story before but you know, when my career was uh you know, in a real dry place, and I thought about that.

59:14 I, thought, about, going, down, to, the, Tom Bradley terminal here in LAX, the international terminal, and just picking a a destination up on the board and just

59:22 I, love, that. Just, going, over, that. Well,, I, got, the, wife, and, the, kids,, and you know, it's it's a little awkward now.

59:28 No,, but, you, can, just, get, up, and, start. It's, called, deserting, your, family, now. But I was I was like, you know, 23, 24. I was like Tom's age. And I was like let me just start over somewhere else where [ __ ] being on, you know Entertainment Tonight isn't the end all be all. And and and and so I'm certainly not, you know, well, boohoo, you know your life turned out so shitty. No, I'm very very grateful. But

59:52 man,, you, listen, to, that, like, I, just don't know if you I was going to say you can't have both, but he seems to have had both. like he went he did that he came back and he was still a part of you know mainstream society

1:00:04 and, and, not, only, that, he, what's, cool, is he took all of that that sort of that that wander lesson you described and he took all and all those experiences and he brought it into that environment and that's what set him apart and still sets him apart like he has such a broad world view

1:00:20 he, also, had, like, he, said, 18, years, of school so then he was like I anything is I just got to get out you know like I've just been reading books for 18 And it and it changes what you what you use as your sort of baseline norms that you think that you can and so you come back and you're affected by these experiences. You're like, "No, well, why don't we just do this?"

1:00:39 You, know,, if, you, think, about, it,, like, he does all the stuff that maybe being out in the world might he might not have had, but then he's like, "Yeah, we're MTV. We're going to start this and we're going to start this comedy."

1:00:48 It's, like, a, drug., It's, like, it, changes your mind and like, "Oh, YouTube, let's buy that." And everybody's like, "No Tom. No." I wonder if like I wonder if that doing it at that at that age though is is is is much more meaningful and significant than doing it let's say like you know maybe after Maple goes to college you know Amanda and I take off and we start doing all this travel like are we too set in our ways then at that age at 60 going around and like can you really be affected

1:01:15 well, there's, one, way, there's, one, way, to find out just, do, it just, do, it

1:01:19 I, think, honestly but, what, if, it, turns, out, yeah, no, it, was a waste of you're already stuck in your ways and now you're 70.

1:01:26 But, but, at, least, it's, worth, going, to, try to find it. And I would say like you hear that it makes me want to say to my own kids and to my younger self and to anybody if you're under 30 or 40 whatever it is, whoever you are, put your phone down and get out in the world. You know, that's that's kind of it makes you just think like just get out there and put it down.

1:01:48 Don't, put, it, down, before, you, get, get No,, no., Switch, to, smartless, mobile, and get a good plan. Yeah, 10 gigs for 10ucks,

1:01:56 right? But, it, is, true. Go, out, and, have, a, rich, life., And Jay,, you, were, saying, to, him, like,, do, you have this moment now looking back where you feel a sense of satisfaction? Like yeah, he's think of the stuff and the people he's met. Like even now he'll be like, if you follow him on Instagram and he'll be like, you know, I'm in Albania. I'm in some like gourd. I'm talking to the prime minister and I'm doing this and that and he's just, you know

1:02:20 I, didn't, even, I, I, is, he, does, he, is, he married? He, has, a, longtime, partner., His, uh, Carrie who's an who's amazing.

1:02:27 Yeah. Okay., So,, he's, traced, he's, not, he's, not still going around solo boopping around.

1:02:31 No,, no,, no., He's, No,, but, he's, she's, a good friend and awesome person uh in her own right. Just amazing. Yeah. And he's just but he's always he's just interested.

1:02:43 Yeah,, that's, a, great, idea,, you, know. Well,, that's, the, key., You, got, to, stay curious and interested the whole time right? And but it seems like everybody that was around him, everybody that was around him had such fun and I I had fun today with all of you. And I think a good time was had

1:03:03 everybody smart. Smart glass smart, list, is, 100%, organic, and, artisally handcrafted by Bennett Barbco, Michael Grant, Terry, and Rob Armjarf. Smart less.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Tom Freston | SmartLess"?

In order: 0:00 Charmin, Chris Whipple, Geek Squad, Hollywood Bowl; 10:00 Morocco, Charmin, G.I. Joe, Hippie trail; 20:00 Dire Straits, Music video, American Express, Berlin; 30:00 Comedy Central, John Stewart, Fake news, Fred Silverman; 40:00 Viacom, Channel 4, ONE Campaign, Vice Media; 50:00 Timbuktu, Bangkok, Bamako, Al Qaeda; 1:00:00 SmartLess, SmartLess.

What is mentioned in this SmartLess episode?

86 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Viacom, Timbuktu, Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, John Stewart, Bangkok. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Tom Freston | SmartLess"?

The episode runs 1 h 4 min; the transcript is about 13,126 words in 281 timestamped sections.

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