Transcript

Selects: How Forgiveness Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

From Stuff You Should Know · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 59 min · 10,746 words · 186 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Selects: How Forgiveness Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW", an episode of Stuff You Should Know published January 12, 2026 (59 min, about 10,746 words). It mentions 30 people, works and ideas, including Stuff You Should Know, Little Chuck, Revenge, Everett Worthington, Shante Malard.

What this episode is about

The content explores the concept of forgiveness, emphasizing that while everyone has the capacity to forgive, it may not always be the most appropriate response in every situation. It includes compelling stories of extraordinary acts of forgiveness and highlights the scientific research surrounding the topic, showcasing its multi-disciplinary nature and the profound emotional impact it can have on individuals.

Key takeaways

  • Forgiveness isn't one-size-fits-all; sometimes, holding onto hurt is justifiable.
  • While revenge films thrive in box offices, stories of forgiveness often languish in niche markets.
  • Research shows the act of forgiving helps the forgiver more than the forgiven—self-care in disguise.
  • Don Henley nails it: sometimes, even a heart-wrenching song can't redeem real-life transgressions.
  • Redemption and forgiveness dance in tandem, but often, it's the drama of revenge that steals the spotlight.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Don Henley, Revenge, Little Chuck, Stuff You Should Know
  2. – 10:00: Revenge, Greater Good magazine, Hooers, Mount Everest
  3. – 15:00: Shante Malard, Brandon Biggs, Hinduism, Janism
  4. – 20:00: Revenge, Evolutionary Psychology
  5. – 25:00: Revenge
  6. – 35:00: Revenge, Fred Luskin
  7. – 40:00: Little Chuck, Stuff You Should Know, Revenge
  8. – 45:00: Everett Worthington
  9. – 50:00: Revenge, Everett Worthington
  10. – 59:21: Stuff You Should Know, Starry Night, Don Henley, iHeart Radio

Notable quotes from "Selects: How Forgiveness Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"

  • Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.
    about Stuff You Should Know · at
  • You all will be losing your daughter to her family. I still want to extend my forgiveness to Shante Malard was her name and let her know that the Malard family is in my…
    about Shante Malard · at
  • For Brandon Biggs to go to college.
    about Brandon Biggs · at
  • So yeah, thanks to Dave for this. He did a great job with this research. But the evolutionary aspect of forgiveness is super interesting to me because I think that a lot of…
    about Evolutionary Psychology · at
  • That person that steals your food or who hits you. And that's revenge. And revenge forms that function in a social group. It says to everybody. It signals to the rest of the…
    about Revenge · at
  • And Fred's definition is to forgive is to give up all hope for a better past.
    about Fred Luskin · at
  • All right. So, there's this study that Dave dug up that I thought was interesting. I think it's flawed, but interesting.
    about Little Chuck · at
  • Just a villain or criminal or person who wronged you. For sure. And actually, we should say Everett Worthington had to put his money where his mouth was because his mother was actually murdered by a burglar. Yeah. I think back in 1997 y.
    about Everett Worthington · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Little Chuck — Person · Co-host · 2 mentions · first at
    Co-leads the conversation, challenges/qualifies claims (e.g., study flaws), adds examples (movies, personal/family anecdotes), and helps frame forgiveness vs. letting go.
  • Everett Worthington — Person · Referenced expert / model creator · 2 mentions · first at
    Presented as the developer of the REACH model for learning forgiveness; his personal experience (mother murdered) is used to underscore application of the method.
  • Shante Malard — Person · Referenced offender in case study · 1 mention · first at
    Central figure in a shocking real-world story used to illustrate extreme forgiveness: she killed a man after a drunk hit-and-run and left him to die; the victim's son publicly forgave her.
  • Fred Luskin — Person · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Cited for a practical definition of forgiveness ('give up all hope for a better past') and for having a nine-step process (briefly referenced).
  • Brandon Biggs — Person · Referenced beneficiary (forgiveness story) · 1 mention · first at
    Son of the man killed in the Shante Malard case; his public forgiveness is highlighted, and murderers in prison raise a $10,000 scholarship for him.
  • Don Henley — Person · Referenced artist / illustrative example · 5 mentions · first at
    His song 'Heart of the Matter' is used to introduce a popular-cultural framing of forgiveness (the offender wanting redemption) contrasted with research focusing on the forgiver (the wronged party).
    That's right. And Don Henley songs.
  • Dr. Peter Co — Person · Referenced biblical figure · 1 mention · first at
    Appears in a Bible story used to illustrate religious emphasis on repeated forgiveness and the idealized nature of forgiveness goals.
    Lot about forgiveness. there's, a pretty famous story in the Bible where Peter said to Jesus, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up…
  • Ed Begley — Person · Referenced actor (movie example) · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned alongside Roseanne Barr as part of the cast of 'She-Devil' in the revenge-movie discussion.
    Oh, you haven't? With Roseanne Bar and Ed Begley and Mel saw that? Was that a revenge movie?
  • Roseanne Barr — Person · Referenced actor (movie example) · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as starring in 'She-Devil', cited in a list of revenge movies to illustrate cultural appetite for revenge narratives.
    Oh, you haven't? With Roseanne Bar and Ed Begley and Mel saw that? Was that a revenge movie?

Companies & orgs

  • iHeart Radio — Company · Producer / distributor · 2 mentions · first at
    Identified as the production company behind the podcast, framing the episode as an iHeart production.
    Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
  • Greater Good magazine — Company · 1 mention · first at
    You're right. Every time you see these stories, you dug up this one story from Berkeley the Greater Good magazine, science-based insights for a meaningful life out of UC Berkeley of this woman who was a nurse's aid who hit a guy.
  • Chicago Cubs — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Like a little Chicago Cubs logo on your tooth.
  • Georgia Bulldogs — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Yeah. Just freak people out. and speaking of sports teams, Chuck, I feel like we should congratulate our Georgia Bulldogs for winning the national championship.

Concepts & topics

  • Revenge — Concept · Core contrasting concept · 19 mentions · first at
    Used as the foil to forgiveness: revenge is framed as evolutionarily advantageous for signaling deterrence, culturally ubiquitous, and narratively common in film. The hosts argue revenge and forgiveness can function together in social groups.
  • Evolutionary Psychology — Concept · Analytical lens · 1 mention · first at
    The hosts discuss evolutionary explanations for forgiveness and revenge as adaptive behaviors in social groups, including signaling, cooperation, and relationship repair.
  • Janism — Concept · Referenced religion/philosophy · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as a tradition emphasizing radical forgiveness and non-enmity via a mantra, illustrating forgiveness as an aspirational ideal.
    Forgiveness. Janism is a big one. there's a there's a kind of a mantra from Janism that says, I grant forgiveness to all living beings. May all living beings grant me forgiveness.
  • Hinduism — Concept · Referenced religion · 1 mention · first at
    Quoted to show forgiveness as a powerful 'saber' and as a cross-religious cornerstone, supporting the episode's theme that forgiveness is widely valued.
    This one part in the middle says, What can a wicked person do and to him or into one who carries the saber of forgiveness in his hand?
  • Starry Night — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    But I've seen names, company logos, even a tiny version of Starry Night on a tooth. while a lot of modern crown and bridge manufacturing has gone digital, highly leveraging CAM, Macad, and 3D printing for most.

Places & events

  • Mount Everest — Place · Metaphorical comparison · 1 mention · first at
    Used as an analogy for the rarity and awe of extraordinary forgiveness—likened to solo climbing Everest as a feat that makes news.
    Could do what they just did. It's it's akin to hearing somebody solo climbing Mount Everest or something like that.
  • 2026 — Event · Temporal framing · 1 mention
    Josh frames the episode as a kickoff for the year 2026, positioning forgiveness as a hopeful, reflective theme for the new year.
  • Park Ridge, Illinois — Place · 1 mention · first at
    I'm going with Crowley in Park Ridge, Illinois.

Media & podcasts

  • Stuff You Should Know — Media · Primary show / setting · 4 mentions · first at
    The podcast episode where the discussion occurs; hosts Josh and Chuck (with Jerry present) explore forgiveness through research, stories, and models.
  • Greater Good magazine — Media · Referenced source · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as the source (from UC Berkeley) for the Shante Malard/Greg case story illustrating extraordinary forgiveness and why such acts make news.
    You're right. Every time you see these stories, you dug up this one story from Berkeley the Greater Good magazine, science-based insights for a meaningful life out of UC Berkeley of this woman.
  • Blue Ruin — Media · Recommended revenge film · 1 mention · first at
    Chuck recommends it as a favorite indie revenge movie, reinforcing the point that even forgiving people can find revenge narratives cathartic.
    Like legitimately. kind of a smaller indie movie called Blue Ruin.
  • I Saw the Devil — Media · Referenced revenge film · 1 mention · first at
    Used as an example of the abundance and appeal of revenge movies compared with fewer forgiveness-centered films.
    Like have you ever seen I Saw the Devil?
  • Old Boy — Media · Referenced revenge film · 1 mention · first at
    Listed among revenge movies to illustrate how culturally salient revenge narratives are.
  • Death Becomes Her — Media · Referenced revenge film · 1 mention · first at
    Included in the revenge-movie list as part of the discussion contrasting revenge vs. forgiveness in storytelling.
    Have you ever seen Death Becomes Her?
  • Magnolia — Media · Referenced forgiveness film · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as one of the few 'legitimate contenders' for movies about forgiveness, contrasting with the many revenge films.
    Were produced by a mega church somewhere in the south. Or you've got Magnolia and then The Fisher King are like the two like legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness.
  • The Fisher King — Media · Referenced forgiveness film · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned alongside Magnolia as a notable film that wrestles with forgiveness.
    Were produced by a mega church somewhere in the south. Or you've got Magnolia and then The Fisher King are like the two like legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness.
  • Hooers — Media · Referenced redemption film (misspoken title) · 1 mention · first at
    Chuck cites 'Hooers' (clearly referring to 'Hoosiers') as a sports redemption movie while debating redemption vs. forgiveness narratives.
    Oh, I mean Hooers, one of the great sports redemption movies.

Full transcript with timestamps

Hey everybody, it's me Josh and I thought for my picks this year I would kick off 2026 with a very sweet, moving, and also eyeopening episode on forgiveness. It turns out all of us have the capacity to forgive, but that's not always the best course of action for any given circumstance. This episode also has a lot of really great stories of amazing acts of forgiveness by people who forgave others against all odds. It's a good episode and I hope you enjoy it and I hope your year is going wonderfully so far.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. Some philosophical waxing is going to happen in this one.

I think it's inevitable, Chuck. That's right. And Don Henley songs. Oh, yeah. That's a good one, too.

Heart of the Matter. Mhm. You like it? Sure. All right. That part where it's like, I'm learning to live without you now. It stirs my soul every time.

Forgiveness. Yeah. You'd have to be dead inside to not be stirred by that part.

I agree. It's good. good song, but he really kind of nails it in that because he's talking about forgiveness

and the heart of the matter. Sure. Um, and he's he wants forgiveness. He needs forgiveness even if like it's the end of the relationship.

Yeah. Even if she doesn't love him anymore. Sure. So, on the one hand, that is a certain kind of forgiveness that an individual or person can that's a path someone can set down. But there's been a lot of research starting starting in the very beginning um stages at the the middle of the 20th century but really picking up in the '9s um research into forgiveness like legitimate scientific research and it's a multid-disciplinary thing because there's a lot of different [snorts] uh fields

disciplines sure that have said hey this actually this is something we can study and measure and produce articles and and and work on

um and they have they've produced do some really good legitimate work. But what most of them have been focused on is not the Don Henley position of somebody who needs to be redeemed, who needs redemption to feel better, who needs forgiveness. Yeah.

But rather the person doing the forgiving, the person who is originally trans transgressed against, not the offender, but the offendee. That's where most of the research has been done on forgiveness,

right? Don Henley is a rock star, so he's he's writing a song about wanting to be forgiven for a a forsome he had in St. Paul backstage.

Sure. Even if you don't love me anymore, can you forgive me that, you know, can you blame a guy is what he's saying,

right? So, yeah, I think that's probably exactly what that song's about now that you mentioned.

That's the subtext. So um I think we should start by um pointing out something about forgiveness is that a lot of people um there's a lot of stories about people not forgiving. We call it revenge and people love revenge, you know, like think about the revenge movie genre and how many entries there are.

Pretty great. Like uh have you ever seen I Saw the Devil? Yeah. Have you ever seen Old Boy?

Yeah. Have you ever seen Death Becomes Her? Yeah. Have you ever seen Sheed Devil?

Nope. Oh, you haven't? With Roseanne Bar and um Ed Begley and and Mel saw that? Was that a revenge uh movie?

Yes. All of them. Great revenge movies. Can I shout out one of my favorites? Yeah, please do.

Like legitimately. Uh kind of a smaller indie movie called Blue Ruin. Oh, yeah. I saw that one.

Great great revenge movie if you're into revenge movies. And I am. I I enjoy it. There's a catharsis involved because I'm a I'm a big forgiver. So, I think I like seeing movies

where revenge happens. Yeah. And we'll talk a lot about, you know, revenge because they're virtually two sides of the same coin and they really interact in some surprising ways that are sensible when you see it laid out, but you might not necessarily be walking around thinking about. But on the other side, if you look up movies about forgiveness, almost all of them were produced by a mega church somewhere in the south. Or you've got Magnolia and then The Fisher King are like the two like legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness.

Well, I don't know because I think there's a fine line sometimes between redemption stories and forgiveness stories.

Okay. They can kind of go hand in hand. And there are plenty of redemption stories.

Okay. Like what? What? Redemption stories? Yeah, let's hear it. Oh, I mean Hooers,

one of the great sports redemption movies. Okay. I think that's a pretty loose definition of redemption.

Former alcoholic coach who who was uh not working because of some bad deeds gets redeemed

by leading a team to a championship. Dennis Hopper gets redeemed as the alcoholic father. Oh,

wait a minute. Was uh was um Gene Hackman on the road to redemption? I thought he came in and basically got Dennis Hopper redeemed himself.

It was a double redemption. He was getting redeemed as well. All right. Okay. Okay. Okay. So,

but plenty of redemption stories. And I think there's a lot of movies that wrestle with the idea of forgiveness in really weighty, heavy ways.

Mhm. uh like these true stories that you hear about these awful things that happen whether a family member is accidentally killed by someone or murdered by someone like there's a lot of that stuff in movies.

Okay. So my thesis was this and this is strictly me editorializing here but I I think there's some validity to it and that is that the reason why it's much easier to name revenge movies is because revenge appeals to our baser instincts. It makes sense. It's it's universally understood. Um, and like you said, you even consider yourself a big- time forgiver and yet you enjoy revenge movies. It's cathartic for you. There's something to be delivered by a revenge movie. A movie about forgiveness

there. It's just more complicated. It's harder. We're not as good in in in um we're not as automatically adept at forgiveness as we may be with revenge. That's why I think there's fewer forgiveness movies. But that's not to say that we're not moved by it. Because I think if you hear whenever you hear real life stories of forgiveness, they just bowl you over. Oh yeah.

Even when you step back and think about like what the person's actually doing, you're like, "Yes, legitimately anybody could do what they just did." It's it's akin to hearing somebody solo climbing Mount Everest or something like that. It's just it makes the news literally when somebody forgives in a in like a really deep way that the average person might not.

Yeah. Like a a big- time transgression. A lot of times you'll hear of a courtroom

scene where someone has forgiven the person who like murdered their their relative or loved one or something.

Yeah. And that man, that stuff is powerful. You're right. Every time you see these stories, uh, you dug up this one story from uh Berkeley the uh Greater Good magazine, uh, science-based insights for a meaningful life

out of UC Berkeley of this woman who was a a nurse's aid who hit a guy. She had been drinking, hit a guy in her car, he went through the windshield, uh, and was stuck there and she was so impaired, she didn't realize it for a while, uh, eventually realized it, got out of the car, could not get the guy out, who was still alive, mind you, and so drove home and parked her car in the garage to let this guy slowly die.

Yeah. In her garage over the course of a couple of days. And like she sobered up, would go out and chuck on him once in a while, but refused to call for help because she was too concerned about getting in trouble. Sure. So instead, she let him die,

had a couple friends come help her hide the body, move the body, and then actually got found out later on because 4 months later she was at a party and she joked about it to an acquaintance who went and told the cops and this woman ended up getting 50 years in prison. That's a horrible story. Like that's one of the worst things that a human being could possibly do. There were so many opportunities for this woman to save this man's life. And by the way, everyone involved in that court case who had a medical degree said that had she called the cops, the fire department, taken the guy to the hospital, he almost certainly would have survived those injuries. But given that she didn't for days get him medical aid, he finally did succumb to them. But he probably would have survive. Almost certainly would have survived. like what she did was about as horrific as as what what a person could do and just so

irresponsible with human life. And she rightfully got a 50-year prison sentence um for that crime. And yet, despite how horrific that was, what made news just as much as that is that a short time later, that man's son, the man who was hit and killed, publicly forgave that woman for for killing his father.

Yes. at the sentencing said, quote, "There's there's no winners in a case like this. Just as we all lost Greg, uh you all will be losing your daughter to her family. I still want to extend my forgiveness to uh Shante Malard was her name and let her know that the Malard family is in my prayers." And this is the kind of stuff, like you said, that makes the news where I think it hits everybody because it makes everybody stop for a second and say, could I do that?

Yes. Could I reach that point of forgiveness? And that's a big weighty question because there's all kinds of forgiveness. there's uh you know a a couple partners together who get in a fight and someone says they're sorry for doing a certain thing and they're forgiven or not.

There are uh situations at work where people are forgiven. There are friends who maybe betray you uh by like cheating on uh on somebody with someone. Uh, I had a situation like that where I had a former friend I felt like cheated with my barely ex-girlfriend and I spent quite a few years being upset about that

and then forgave him and it's a powerful thing. So, there's there's like levels, but when you get to this kind of thing where someone caused the death of a loved one and then even laughed about it,

like to be able to forgive like that is just uh that's next level. It is. It is. So much so, Chuck, that a group of convicted murderers who were serving sentences in prison heard about this and I guess got in touch with one another and raised funds and and got a $10,000 scholarship together.

Wow. For Brandon Biggs um to go to college. Um the convicted murderer sent the kid to college because this this very generous act of public forgiveness of his own father's murderer. Um, so yeah, it is it's an astounding thing. And yet everything that like the the research that really, like I said, started to to take off in earnest in the '9s, um, has shown us is that we're all perfectly capable of doing that. The answer is yes. Yes, you can do that. You totally could do that. But that we don't necessarily fully understand how to.

And yet there's a lot of evidence also that it's evolutionarily wired into us to do that.

Yeah. And you know, we'll get into religiosity of it uh a bit more in detail later, but all religions talk a lot about forgiveness. Uh there's, you know, a pretty famous story in the Bible where Peter said uh to Jesus, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times. And Jesus said,"I tell you not seven times but 70* 7." And Peter said, "So 490 times." And Jesus said, "Oh, Peter, always so literal."

Yeah. Uh, that one's pretty good. But you know, you can read Hindu, you can read uh the Buddhists talk about it. Like everyone, every religion talks about forgiveness as kind of a maybe a cornerstone of of the religion in some cases. So much so that um when science started looking into forgiveness and and and just trying to figure it out um generally people just presumed forgiveness was under the realm and the domain of religion that that's where that's where you went for answers about forgiveness and science said ho ho ho we can we can top that surely we can beat that 490 number and that's what they've said about doing.

Yeah. I mean, Jesus forgave his crucifiers. It's like one of the few things Jesus said on the cross according [clears throat] to the Bible was

they know not what they do. Like forgive them for they know not what they do, right?

Uh and like you said, it's not just Christianity, although Christianity gets all the all the accolades for forgiveness. Um Janism is a big one. Uh there's a there's a kind of a a mantra from Janism that says, "I grant forgiveness to all living beings. May all living beings grant me forgiveness. My friendship is with all living beings. My enmity is totally non-existent. And um that's I mean when you look at that, especially if you're not a Janist, um you you're like, "Wow, how would you ever how would you ever reach that level?" And I think that the point is like you never reach that level. It's an ideal goal that you try to achieve probably on a daily basis if you're a Janist, but it's certainly over a lifetime, you know.

Yeah. And I'd like to read this. Uh again, not to pile on the religious stuff, but the Hindu one really spoke to me.

Uh this one part in the middle says, "What can a wicked person do and to him or into one who carries the saber of forgiveness in his hand?"

And that one really speaks to me in that it's the it's a powerful tool to forgive and it's for you as the forgiver. I think a lot of times people think it's can clear the conscious of someone who's done something wrong. I guess that certainly happens, but to me it's it's really about it's a it's a powerful weapon you have to regain your own strength as a human.

Yes. That seems to be the bulk of what psychology is is coming up with as far as studying forgiveness goes. That it's really the person who is who has been wronged. That's what forgiveness is is more about. That's the psychological aspect of it. Like we said, there's um it's a multidisciplinary investigation. And so you've got evolutionary biologists who are like that's really great psychology, but we found a different reason for forgiveness and it doesn't quite fit that mold. Um and then um like the the medical field says, "No, it's even better than that. You can actually like improve your health by genuinely forgiving somebody." So there's all these different inputs that are coming together to create this really like complex contextualized picture of what forgiveness is and what it does for us and why we have it.

That's right. I think it's a great setup. I agree. You want to take a break? I might just not come back. That feels so good about that.

No, no, we have to finish. We got to complete. All right. We'll be back in a minute to talk uh about what I think is probably the most interesting part of this is the evolutionary aspect right after this.

Learning [singing] stuff with Joshua and Charles you should know. So this was this uh this is Livia, correct?

Uh forgiveness was the Dave Ruse joint. Oh, okay. I thought this was Livia. So yeah, thanks to Dave for this. He did a great job with this research. But uh the the evolutionary aspect of forgiveness is super interesting to me because I think that a lot of people assume that it's uh what Dave calls a higher virtue. like you know as tuk tuk in the gang were so base as uh you know kind of primitive thinkers is that they didn't have the capacity forgive they would they would smite somebody if if someone punched tuk tuk in the face tuk tuk punch back or someone attack took took attack back maybe even harder and there is a quite a bit of evidence that um they're not mutually exclusive and that that fighting back and forgiving both have a big evolutionary advantage.

Yeah. So, the big evolutionary advantage of revenge is if you live in a social group and somebody takes advantage of you or they hit you or they steal your food or whatever, if you don't do something to write that wrong, you're broadcasting to the rest of the group that you are open for exploitation. And that's not good for you. It's also not good for the chances that you're going to pass along your genes. And so under the under the the opaces of natural selection, it makes sense for you to hit that person that steals your food or who hits you. And that's revenge. And revenge forms that function in a social group. It says to everybody. It signals to the rest of the group, you are not to be messed with. This guy tried it and look what happened to him. Nobody else should try that. Go pick on somebody else. And there's actually been studies that have showed that not just among apes and primates um but among human

cultures, revenge is found pretty much universally. And I saw a study, Chuck, that said that um the mere presence of a person, a third party who's witnessing an argument increases the chances that that argument is going to come to blows because you're signaling to the rest of the group and [clears throat] in this case just that third person, you are not to be messed with. that that's the the purpose of revenge is to is to broadcast that signal.

Yeah. I mean, I would say that any kind of dumb drunk bar fight, half of it is the fact that someone doesn't want to back down in front of other people.

Sure. You know, more than half. Totally. And that if those two guys were just in a uh alley somewhere, they may just hug it out.

Yeah. Probably not, but you never know. It's possible. Or they they might talk it out at least. Yeah. Or just agree that it's dumb and leave.

Yes. Uh but you talked about studies in the animal world. Uh there was a primatologist named uh Fran Deval who looked at wild chimps uh recorded uh 350 encounters, aggressive encounters between these chimps and then what happened afterward. And in 51% of these encounters, uh, the chimps would literally kind of kiss and make up and touch each other and embrace each other after a fight. We've seen the same thing in bonabos and great apes. Um, there's sheep, there's dolphins, there's goats, even hyenas have shown traits of forgiveness.

So, it's it's not ubiquitous, but it is all over the animal kingdom. Animals fighting and then animals making up with one another,

right? So, I mean, the revenge one's pretty easy to understand, but then you're like, "Okay, well, wh why would there be the making up part, but that also ties into the fact that these same animals are also um living in social tight-knit social groups. And so, you have a limited amount of people that you can possibly have a a dispute or a feud with. And if you're not working together cooperatively in that sense, also your your chances of survival are decreased. So, what makes sense is what's called the um valuable relationship hypo hypothesis, which says if somebody hits you, you should hit them back, but then after that, you should make up with them. So, you're sending that signal you're not to be messed with, but then you're repairing that relationship, that valuable relationship that you depend on to help your survival in the in the um social group. Um you're repairing it and then you guys can move forward. And that that

is the how um revenge and forgiveness are basically two sides of the same coin or at least work in conjunction with one another to keep the the group um functioning at its best,

right? Uh and that kind of dovetales with a second uh part of that um thing which is called negative reciprocity which is if uh someone hits tuk tuk and tuk tuk goes crazy and just starts whailing on the other person who just slapped him in the face.

Yeah, that's not good either cuz everyone's going to go whoa. Uh tuk tuk uh I'm not sure I trust him now. um he has definitely burned that bridge forever between him and the other guy.

And none of this is very good. So what they found is negative reciprocity. If you if someone smites you, you smite them back the the same amount and then forgive them. Like if someone takes off their glove and slaps you across the face, you don't you don't kick them between the legs and then whail on their face. You slap them back with your glove and then you talk about forgiving one another and everyone sees that you can work with people. You can you can stand your ground but you can also forgive and work with people which means you're valuable to the group and you're valuable to have around.

Yeah. And so kind of tied into what you were saying earlier about, you know, how there's this idea that, you know, revenge is a base instinct and forgiveness is a higher instinct rather than realizing that they're both pretty basic instincts for for um among the animal kingdom. is there's this idea that in human society um we have created like these social institutions and these contexts so that the individual doesn't have to to carry out revenge and then forgiveness that they can just focus on forgiveness. Yeah. As long as those social institutions are doing what they're supposed to do, as long as there is like a pursuit of justice and you can rely on the idea that the the person who transgressed against you by killing your father is going to be caught and punished and sentenced to jail, you don't have to worry about revenge. It's being it's being conducted for you and then you the individual in this well

functioning society can just focus on whether you want to forgive or not. And that that's that kind of higher and lower echelon because on the in the opposite situation where there isn't like a good sense of justice where it does seem like if you want justice you have to go seek it out yourself. Revenge is going to be much more um uh exercised much more frequently than forgiveness will.

Yeah. Which says a lot about the United States these days, you know. Yeah. I mean I'm I'm not trying to be cynical even. I mean that's just sort of what we see around us. I think a lot of people feel like the sense of justice in this country is pretty skewed and that's why you might see the uh increases in things like vigilantism or revenge and um I I don't know what societies you look to to do a study like that. I'm kind of curious on the ones that are very well policed and the justice is um sort of fair and equal, but

um I I think that's one of the problems in the in the states these days for sure.

Yeah. without getting too far down that rabbit hole. But also even, you know, it's it's kind of eye opening to me because I I've never really thought about the courts and the justice system is

um set up to help individuals move along. Yeah, it should be. You just think of it as punishment. It's a system for punishment, not for redemption necessarily, but um but it's also to to help the victims. I just never saw it that way before.

Yeah. It's interesting when you talk about that guy in court and a lot of times you'll hear the courtroom forgiveness. Um, sometimes you'll also hear the opposite and you hear the courtroom like I will never forgive you for what you did to me. And I think not always, but it seems to be a lot of time tied to whether the transgressor has really acknowledged what they've done and sought forgiveness and said that was the worst thing I've ever done in my life and I don't I don't think you should ever forgive me. Like it's an interesting sort of dance that happens there cuz it's not a onetoone thing.

It's not like every time a bad criminal that does something really asks for forgiveness and says it was a terrible thing. the other person forgives. So sometimes the person could laugh it off like this lady did and not ask for forgiveness and the other person could forgive. Which I think goes back to the notion that forgiveness comes from the forgiver,

right? That that's that it's really about the the person who's been wronged. That's who it's about. And so yeah, now we've reached the kind of um psychologies domain over the the concept of forgiveness, which is

that it's about you, the individual who suffered a wrong um releasing the the pain and the anger and the resentment and all the negative feelings that you're experiencing so that you can feel better. And that it doesn't matter whether the other person is asking for forgiveness and that it doesn't even matter if the other person deserves forgiveness or not. That genuine forgiveness, psychologically speaking, according to some psychologists, we'll hear that some disagree, but that genuine true forgiveness is unconditional. That you you forgive the person whether they deserve it or not.

Yeah. And this is to where the language to me is a little I could see people debating this because it is forgiveness in a way, but to me it's almost more of just a letting go.

Yeah, I agree with you. uh of an anger. So, it's not it's so it's so tricky with the the the definition because when you think of forgiveness, you think I'm saying and it's really not what it is. What you're not saying is it's okay what you did.

Okay. So, yes, you know what I mean? That's not what that's not a key component of forgiveness.

No. No, it's not. you're that's and that's a very confusing thing for a lot of people too is that the idea that if you forgive somebody you're you're you're condoning their behavior. You're saying it's okay what they did.

That's not the point of forgiveness. Um from from what psychologists who research this are coming up with, they're saying, "No, what you're doing when you forgive somebody is to say, I know what you did. You wronged me and I can live with that. It doesn't make it any better." Yeah. It doesn't make it any better. It doesn't excuse what you did,

right? And it does it certainly doesn't excuse future repeated um instances of what you just did, but it's saying like I'm willing to let go of the pain I have associated with this act you you you did against me that you this wrong and I'm going to move forward with my life and in doing that I'm willing to let you move forward as well. Well, or I think sometimes in a case like this, that kind of forgiveness can make the transgressor suffer worse sometimes.

Yeah. Just out of guilt. Yeah. And they want to be admonished and hated as part of a punishment.

Uh but you know, it ts, you know, cuz again, forgiveness is not for you. It's for the person. Dave even makes a great point. Uh the person being forgiven uh is secondary or even unnecessary to the process. And that's sort of the key. You don't even have to tell that person necessarily. We'll we'll get to later some kind of like how to forgive. Some people say that you should tell someone

uh out loud, like literally tell someone. But you don't necessarily have to tell that person if it's a a situation like this or even if it's like a close personal friend. Like I think usually you do when it's someone you know because that's a part of communicating with one another in a healthy way. But if it's the person who who killed your family, uh you don't have to tell them to forgive them and you can still forgive them.

Yes. So some psychologists define forgiveness like a full forgiveness as including you actually seeking out contact with that person,

right? And that if you forgive them but don't tell them or you still avoid them afterward where it's like, "Hey, I forgive you but good luck with the rest of your life. You're not in my life anymore." that to to some psychologists, not all, some psychologists say that's that's not genuine forgiveness. That's akin to like what you were saying, which is letting go of anger and moving on, but not really actually forgiving.

I still say it's forgiving. I'm not one of the psychologists. Sure. And it's it's very much debated for sure. But then that also leads to another point too that if you forgive somebody, it doesn't necessarily mean you forget, right? And and that's not part and parcel to it. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. you can forgive. Um, I'm actually really good at that kind of thing where like I I forgive because it it just unless it was a really huge wrong, it just kind of fades from my memory fairly easily and I don't I'm not I don't dwell on it.

Um, so so it can they can go hand in hand. But if you've been deeply wronged by somebody where you're actually going through the process of forgiving, which we'll talk about, and it is a it's a deliberate step that you're taking toward finding peace with yourself in your life again, then um you know very well what that wrong was and you're not going to forget it. But eventually the aim is that you will have divorced the emotional attachment from that memory to of that wrong to where it becomes akin to like a movie you saw once or a trip you took once. Like it it's not it's just a thing that happened in your life rather than this this this crisis that is sucking up your attention and emotions. Yeah, I really like this definition from uh Fred Luskin, who is a uh psychologist and forgiveness expert for what it's worth. Uh director of the Stanford University forgiveness projects.

And Fred's definition is to forgive is to give up all hope for a better past. And that's that really lays it out there in this in a very practical sense that what what has happened has happened. You may not be there yet in your journey to forgiveness or or the letting go, but you cannot change what happened no matter how angry you are or how much you want someone to pay for it or suffer or how much revenge you want. So there is no better past. That's impossible. So giving up hope for a better past, it's sort of a bleak definition, but one that I think is uh pretty instructive.

Yeah. But it's also a realistic definition too if you think about it because you can't change the past one way or another. You can only alter how you let the the past continue to affect you or not.

And the the other thing I I really want to say here right now because it can be confusing for me too. Um when I when I think about forgiveness and anger and stuff like that is like this is not no one is talking about a something like throwing a switch or like rather than feeling anger you feel forgiveness. That's actually counterproductive as we'll see like you you like you can't replace anger with forgiveness. forgiveness is meant to come after anger because you use anger, right, or hurt or resentment or whatever your version of that is um to to um to protect and guard your own boundaries. So, it's unnatural for you to not have some sort of negative emotion or negative response to being wronged, but um you don't want to replace that or try to replace it with forgiveness because you may accidentally u trip up the process and you you're not really legitimately feeling forgiveness.

You're basically just setting yourself up to be wronged again. Yeah. My deal personally is uh Emily always talks about what a forgiving person I am because I I really crave uh to forgive.

Mhm. I don't know. I was about to say crave forgiveness. I I crave forgiving. I guess it sounds funny, but

I I just uh all all I need is for someone to say they're sorry for something and then it's done. Uh nine times out of 10 that's done for me. And as far as forgetting, like I'm a pretty good forgett, too. I don't know about like literally forgetting something, but I I definitely look back on a a lot of relationships, especially with like ex-girlfriends that were terrible, and go, "Oh, what was so bad in there in that relationship? We were pretty good, right?" Like, no, we weren't pretty good at all.

I just have rosecolored glasses. And uh I think you and I are both like as as podcasting partners and family and team good about when we have little dustups forgiving one another if the other person like says they're sorry. Like you and I both get over that stuff pretty quickly.

Yeah. Which is very key though, you know, like Oh yeah. You can't forgiveness is like from the heart. If you really if you're hanging on to something, then you're not done with it yet.

No. But so and that is so important, Chuck. That's important for the individual to remember that if you if you are unable to forgive, that means that you're you're still hanging on to it. That doesn't mean you'll never forgive. And it also doesn't mean you have to hurry up and forgive. It means you're still in the process of reaching the point where you can forgive.

It's a deliberate choice from everything I've seen in the research. You are making a deliberate choice to forgive somebody, but it's not throwing a switch. It's part of a process. And during that process, while you're on the road to forgiving the person, you're still going to be kind of angry at them. Maybe not the whole time, but every once in a while, it might hit you before you fully forgiven them, and you're going to be mad about it all over again. That's okay. That's normal. That's natural. You can't really rush it. You can, but it's going to be detrimental. What you want to do is just kind of let it play out and have faith that if you're on the path to forgiveness, you'll ultimately will forgive the person and things will be good again.

Yeah. And depending on uh your your life and your childhood, like you probably have an inclination or an instinct to forgive or not based on what you saw, what was modeled. There's there's both nature and nurture involved. But I think people generally have an instinct of revenge or forgiveness. And to do one or the other that is against that instinct requires great effort. Uh especially in the case of forgiveness cuz you may not be inclined to be a forgiver at all. That doesn't mean something's wrong with you. Mhm.

That just means that's probably what you saw growing up. Or maybe something happened to you when you were young that makes it harder for you. Uh but it's still possible to get there. It just might be tougher.

Well, what's neat is another thing that the field of psychology is telling us about forgiveness is that it can be taught. You can learn to forgive. Even if you were raised in an unforgiving um uh um environment where you never learned how to do that, you can learn how to do it. Um and uh I say we kind of jump to those um to how to forgive um before we go into physical health because I feel like we're kind of there right now.

Yeah. Well, let's take a break. Okay. Let's take our final break and uh we'll talk about that when we get back as well as this one sort of interesting study I'd like to hit real quick, too.

Okay. learning [singing] stuff with Joshua and Charles. Stuff you should know. All right. So, there's this study that Dave dug up that I thought was interesting. I think it's flawed,

but interesting. Extreme social psychology. They took 46 people. They divided them into two groups. One wrote about a time uh when they had something uh some wrong committed against them, but they forgave. The other wrote about a time when they had something wrong committed against them, but they did not forgive.

And then they told those people to stand at the bottom of a hill to estimate how steep it was. and also in a separate part of the study to jump as high as they could. The unforgiving group guessed that the incline was 5° steeper on average than the forgiving and the forgivers jumped 7 cm higher. So [snorts] the takeaway here is is you literally it's more difficult for you. you see the world as being more difficult and steeper and you can't jump as high and you can't accomplish as much if you're holding [snorts] on to that.

All kinds of red flags here to this study, especially when it comes to the jumping part.

Yeah, but uh I thought it was interesting the the guessing the incline of the hill. There may be something to that. Well, yeah. And I mean, it is backed up, Chuck, by the physical the physiological um studies of how um how stress and anger affect you and how releasing those can actually help you.

Um there's a lot of research that shows that you can um suffer from chronic stress when you're angry all the time and that that's tied to everything from high blood pressure to um diabetes to poor cardiovascular outcomes. um just a whole host of chronic conditions can be traced back to chronic stress and chronic stress can be traced back to chronic anger. And what they've what they're discovering is that forgiveness can actually undo that, can actually reverse that. There was a study that um that that uh rated people based on the life stresses they'd had. And they apparently recruited um participants for this study who'd been through a lot of stress. So much so that they were basically always chronically stressed because they have had so many terrible events in their life. And there was one group that actually um did not have poor health compared to the rest of the group. And they found that when they

gave them a test of uh forgiveness of how how forgiving they were generally, they found that this subset was actually overall a very forgiving group and that that somehow was battling back the chronic stress or the effects of chronic stress on their health in life.

Yeah. I mean I I think that makes complete sense. If you are someone who really has a problem with forgiving and just holds on to these deep deep resentments against people,

usually against people very close to you and your family even. Um that that just that can't be good for you physically. I've seen it happen. I don't want to get too personal, but there are people in my family who haven't spoken for 20 plus years.

Mhm. Over dumb stuff that it's like you see that kind of like stubbornness coupled with

uh resentment and it's just man that is just no way to live. Yeah. No way to live.

Yeah. So there was another one that um another study that uh Dave turned up that um shows that even like in a very short term uh thinking about holding a grudge can actually affect you physiologically.

Yeah. By activating your sympathetic nervous system as Dave puts it the battle or scadaddle impulse.

And they found that this um these they they cut these two groups into um or they cut the participants into two groups. All of the people had to think about some time when they were deeply wronged in the past. Yeah. And then one group was taken through an exercise where they learned to forgive the person.

The other group, this is so mean, was encouraged to hold a grudge. They were basically taught, they went through an exercise to hold a grudge and be angry and resentment or resentful about that. And they found that the people who were taught to hold the grudge had elevated skin conductance, which meant their nervous system was aroused. Higher arterial blood pressure, not good. Um they also had muscle tension in the brow area. You know when your brows furrowed when you're stressed out or mad.

Sure. And that they they um the symptoms even after they went through an exercise to basically deescalate everything, the symptoms persisted. And this was just a a an exercise where you were just thinking about being wronged and then holding a grudge about it just just like a probably this was like an hour out of their lives. And that's that was the effects that was the findings of that. So it's pretty clear that that yes anger can can affect you um physically and and what they haven't we don't have the reams of data that we have supporting it like we do that anger hurts you physically. But there's a there seems to be the opposite of that holds true which is releasing that anger which is forgiveness in whatever form it takes can actually improve your health as well.

Right? Uh earlier in the episode we were talking about religion all religions talk extensively about forgiveness.

And when they do studies these days usually like questionnaires and stuff. Um depending on the studies you look at, you would think religiosity does play a role in that people who describe themselves as religious um supposedly in some studies are two and a half times more likely to say that others should be forgiven unconditionally. But I know you found some studies that found that uh religiosity does not play as big a role as a lot of people think it does.

Yeah. and that uh sometimes uh religious people may be more inclined to say that they are forgiving when they aren't because it's the right thing to do.

Yeah. The study found that when when you ask basically when you survey them people who are religious tend to come off as more forgiving. They self-report as forgiving, right? But then if you ask them other certain questions um I guess in the in real world situations, they're no more forgiving than other people. But so that would be an interpretation that they they think they're more forgiving or tell people they're more forgiving than they actually are. But there was um another way to look at it too. And they went back and and followed up on that study and they found that over a longer term, people who are religious actually do tend to be more forgiving in their lives.

It wasn't like the most set in stone study, but I found it interesting that they were they had it harder. the the religious people in this study um had more difficulty in um relating grudges that they're carrying around compared to the control group of people who weren't religious.

Yeah, makes sense. Sure. There was some redemption there. Yeah. Uh as far as how to forgive, like we said, hopefully we've gotten it through that is something you can learn if you are not an inherent forgiver. You can learn how to through practice. Uh there's a a psychologist named uh Worthington

Everett Warthington. Edward Everett Everett Worthington. There should be a third after that if you ask me.

Totally should be. Uh and Worthington has developed the reach model which we'll go through. It's um it's an acronym

of course. Recall is the first step. uh and that's to really recall the event in detail but in sort of an objective way and not necessarily something that was done to you but just to look at the detail of it and try not to judge yourself or the other person just simply bring that back to your mind.

Yeah. And the point of that is to feel the feelings like we have we humans have such a tendency to try to get away from negative feelings and run toward positive feelings. And um I think Worthington's position is that we have to feel whatever feelings are associated with it. And that's a huge part of it. That's we have to go through that experience. That's part of the recall.

Right. The E stands for empathy. Um this is one that is I don't know about controversial, [clears throat] but it's it's not everyone agrees at all on whether or not you need to actually have empathy to forgive. Mhm.

Um, but empathy can certainly help you forgive. If someone has uh broken into your home and stolen from you, uh, it might help to forgive them to empathize and think about where they may be in their life to feel like they needed to do something like that. Uh, is one example.

Yeah. And the he points out also like you're not excusing their behavior, but you're just thinking about them beyond just a villain or criminal or person who wronged you. For sure. And actually, we should say Everett Worthington had to put his money where his mouth was because his mother um was actually murdered by a burglar. Yeah. I think back in 1997 y

and he put himself through this um the the the reach method and he said he came out on the other side better off than he had been.

And I think he was already doing this, right? That didn't inspire his career, did it?

No, no, I think he was already doing it coincidentally. Wow. The ironies. So the A stands for altruistic gift and the point of this is that you realize that you are actually um giving a gift by forgiving somebody even I guess if you don't tell them even if you don't necessarily empathize with them but that the way you do this the way you um you you recognize that your forgiveness is an altruistic gift is to think about times where you've wronged somebody and that they've been forgiven or forgiving and and even if you didn't nec necessarily deserve it. And what a gift that that was. You're kind of bringing it to mind. Uh which I think is really suspiciously kind of tied in with empathizing if you ask me.

Yeah. I mean, he was trying to make the word reach. Sure. Uh commit to this is what I mentioned earlier about telling someone else. Doesn't necessarily have to be the person you're forgiving, although that could help uh if you want to go that route. But telling someone else, at least in Warthingington's mind, makes it uh gives it a degree of permanence. And it basically makes it part of your story like you're changing the story essentially.

Exactly. And then hold. And this is very important too that we said earlier you you can forgive and it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to forget. So when you do remember that kind of thing, you're still going through the process and you're still angered by it, you're still hurt by it, but you're on the path to forgiveness, you have to hold on to the to the idea that you're you're working on forgiving them, that it's not an instantaneous thing. So you have to hold the fact that you're forgiving them even in the face of, you know, being triggered by or flooded by this again when you think about the memory of it,

right? Uh Luskan has a nine-step process which we weren't we're not going to really get into, but step eight is interesting.

Uh just like says, living well is the best revenge is the sort of the nuts and bolts of number eight. And uh there's something to be said for that. But I I think it also makes it much harder to forgive and move on if you're not able to live well. And that doesn't mean, you know, money and riches and stuff like that right?

That means just living a a a full life. But if you're not able to forgive and get past that, I mean, there are plenty of movies of people that have been have some awful thing from their past that they're just wallowing in all these years later. And that's the the central plot of the film, you know,

she devil who's right. But that's I mean that's the that's the point of forgiveness is to is to free yourself to find peace within yourself. And yes, it's great for the person who wronged you if you overtly forgive them and let them know, but you don't have to. And then also, Chuck, there's a whole school of thought in psychology that says not only do you not have to tell the person that you're forgiving them, you don't have to forgive them,

right, at all. And that there's this this whole almost kind of um not culty, but really kind of dogmatic uh idea that if you don't follow these steps and you don't like genuinely fully forgive somebody, you really haven't worked out the process. There's something wrong with you. Maybe you're an unforgiving person and that makes you tacky. That's what psychologists call it. Um, and there's a whole group of psychologists say, "No, no, no. There's a there's way more to this process than just, you know, nine steps or the reach method." Like there there's it's more nuanced than that. And that you can be a fully functioning uh emotionally developed person who says, "You know what? I don't forgive you. I may never forgive you, but I'm still going on with my life. And if the point of forgiveness is to achieve peace in yourself, if you can achieve peace in yourself and and you do it without forgiving somebody because you don't

want to forgive them or you don't feel like you should forgive them, then that's okay too. As long as you're you're getting inner peace, that's the point.

Yeah. And there is a school of thought saying that uh in cases where like it's a harm has been committed to you that could happen again.

Uh you may be more likely to have that harm committed to you again if you do forgive too much.

There is research about uh spousal abuse that when you are too or when you're quick to forgive the abuser then you are victimized more regularly than spouses who aren't as forgiving. And uh that's that's based on operant learning. Basically, you're less likely to engage in a behavior that has a negative consequence. So, they've done plenty of research on that. And a lot of psychologists uh say like, "Yeah, forgiveness is great, but uh while you shouldn't be bitter, there are a lot of times when you should not forgive somebody and that's okay."

Yeah. There's a whole um there's a article from 1999 on Psychology Today called must we forgive? And it is really interesting. It's fascinating. It's this psychologist writes about probably half a dozen or more people and their different individual circumstances and the reasons they chose not to forgive. And um she kind of pigeon holes them into like three general categories, but because psychologists love doing that,

but it's a really compelling article and it's definitely worth reading and it it provides this kind of alternative idea that like no, there's definitely situations where some people don't deserve your forgiveness. One of the chief among them is if you say like a a sibling or a family member of some sort. Um you have a like some sort of falling out with or they've wronged you and you choose not to forgive them. You might feel tremendous pressure from the rest of your family to just go ahead and forgive them. That's a terrible reason to forgive somebody. And if you do forgive them under those circumstances or say because your religion decrees it, um you're like that's not full forgiveness and it may actually harm you because you may suffer um from from a distorted self-image or or lowered self-respect because you basically went back to this person who not only wronged you in the past, is unrepentant about

it, but is just going to continue the behavior again in the future. So there's definitely instances that where like you probably shouldn't forgive, but that doesn't mean that you should be stuck in resentment and anger and letting that person have power over your life. You might just need to move on without them and without forgiving them. And you can make that work as well.

Yeah. I mean, there was that one terrible story that you sent about the woman who as a child had this terribly bullying and abusive older brother. Mhm.

And we won't even talk about the awful things this guy did, but the parents were really pu always pushing like, "Oh, he just doesn't he doesn't know how to say he loves you. He doesn't know how to talk to you, so he does these things and you really need to forgive him." And that's just that's bonkers. You know, that that is a situation where you were doing such great harm as a parent to to teach your daughter to accept this kind of behavior,

right? And not only accept it, but forgive it. It's like just setting her up for unless she really therapies through that stuff later in life

of just a series of terrible relationships. So, Exactly. Yes. Yes. You can't uh forgiveness isn't always the thing. Um my I have a friend who had a a a terrible thing happen to him when he was younger and he we talked a lot about this and he has forgiven that person in his heart and I was like, "Well, I haven't." And I was like, I'm still angry about it.

And he was like, thanks. Like, that helps. Like, I'm angry and have not forgiven on his behalf.

And I thought he was going to say like, no, man. You need to do the same. And he was like,

brother. He was like, thank you, man. Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. And I think that's another another thing worth pointing out, too, is we have this concept of people who forgive others being saintly. Yeah.

And and it's not necessarily that kind of a thing. It's not necessarily that kind of a process. Sometimes it is just straight up self-preservation. Like you are that's the way that you're going to get to a po a point where you can feel peace again in your life. And that doesn't mean you're a saint or you're even feeling saintly or you're conducting yourself in a saintly manner. And that doesn't matter as long as you're feeling inner peace and your life is no longer in turmoil and this person who wronged you doesn't have power over you any longer. That's the point of forgiveness.

Yeah. And that that was totally the deal in his case is that was his only way forward to to healing himself.

But since this wasn't something that happened to me, I was able to not forgive,

right? And and remain upset about it. And uh he he was okay with that. Yeah. And still to this day, you won't buy that guy beers.

Oh man. So, um, there's one other thing that has started to kind of come out of the shadows that's just getting picked up by psychology as far as forgiveness goes, and it's self forgiveness. And we don't really have room to talk about that here, but it's worth exploring sometime, maybe in a short stuff.

Yeah, that's a big deal. Just uh, a lot of times when I'm beating up on myself, Emily says, "You need to be nicer to my friend."

Oh, I know you've you've told that before. I always just think that's like one of the sweetest things I've ever heard. What a kind thing to say.

It works. You know who needs to hear that? Don Henley, you got anything else on forgiveness? Charles,

I got nothing else. It's This is a good weighty philosophical discussion. I like these.

Agreed. Thanks a lot to Dave Roose for helping us out with this one. Uh, and if you want to know more about forgiveness, you should seriously go out and do some reading. Especially if you have something to forgive, it's not something you necessarily can understand just instinctively. It helps to see what the experts say. So maybe go explore that and free yourself. As I said free yourself, that of course means it's time for listener mail.

Uh I'm going to call this dental art. Hey guys, been a listener for a while. I've nearly finished uh with the sandwiching method before I knew it was even cool. [snorts] Uh we were talking a few shows, you were talking a few shows back before the holidays about um putting a kidney stone in Chuck's uh replacement tooth. This would be unusual, but people actually get custom inlays and artwork made for their crowns. Inlays are generally gold or gemstone with a custom artwork. Uh, and it's referred to as a tooth tattoo, which is hand painted onto the crown before it gets a final coat of glaze.

Uh, the most common request here in the Chicagoland area are sports logos. Oh, no.

Like a little Chicago Cubs logo on your tooth. Uh, but I've seen names, company logos, even a tiny version of Starry Night on a tooth. Uh while a lot of modern crown and bridge manufacturing has gone digital, highly leveraging CAM, Macad, and 3D printing for most restorations, tooth tattoos are unique manifestation of the relatively unknown artistry of a subset of dental technicians.

Wow. Uh while I recognize the dentistry as a whole is widely disliked and a pain to endure, I appreciate that you guys probably unknowingly helped to uh destigmatize restorative dental work by openly talking about your dealings with it. Uh tooth wear and decay is part of the human condition. No need for shame. After all, it will keep me and my cadra employed and happily listening to stuff you should know. Many regards. Uh that is from Eric uh Crowley or Crowley. Probably Crowley.

I'm going with Crowley in Park Ridge, Illinois. Very nice. Thanks a lot, Eric. That's awesome. Can you imagine seeing Starry Night on a tooth? I got to look that up.

Be wonderful. I'd have the scream. Well, that's a good one. And then you could scream whenever you reveal it, too.

Yeah. Just freak people out. Um, and speaking of sports teams, Chuck, I feel like we should congratulate our Georgia Bulldogs for winning the national championship.

Yes. Never thought I would see the day. Uh, what a great great game. Uh, just unbelievable feeling. Two championships in 3 months for this long-suffering Atlanta/ Georgia band.

I know. It's amazing. I don't even know how to reconcile these feelings that I'm having lately. [snorts]

They'll be robbed from you next year. Don't worry. It'll go back to normal. But that is pretty great to to go out on a highlight.

Probably was great. Go dogs. Go dogs indeed. And if you want to get in touch with Chuck and I and Jerry or Frank the chair or Harry dog even, we can probably pass along emails you send. You can wrap your emails up, spank them on the bottom, and send them off to stuff at iiheartradio.com.

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Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Selects: How Forgiveness Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"?

Josh Clark (Host), Chuck Bryant (Host), Dave Roose (Guest).

What is "Selects: How Forgiveness Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW" about?

The content explores the concept of forgiveness, emphasizing that while everyone has the capacity to forgive, it may not always be the most appropriate response in every situation. It includes compelling stories of extraordinary acts of forgiveness and highlights the scientific research surrounding the topic, showcasing its multi-disciplinary nature and the profound emotional impact it can have…

What is mentioned in this Stuff You Should Know episode?

30 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Stuff You Should Know, Little Chuck, Revenge, Everett Worthington, Shante Malard, Evolutionary Psychology. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Selects: How Forgiveness Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"?

The episode runs 59 min; the transcript is about 10,746 words in 186 timestamped sections.

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About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.