Transcript

Selects: How Miniature Golf Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

From Stuff You Should Know · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 48 min · 9,224 words · 196 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Selects: How Miniature Golf Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW", an episode of Stuff You Should Know published December 28, 2025 (48 min, about 9,224 words). It mentions 58 people, works and ideas, including Rock City, Don Clayton, Kiss, Tom Thumb Golf, Ruby Falls.

What this episode is about

The main topic explores the intricacies and nostalgic elements of miniature golf, including its appeal and the fond childhood memories associated with it, while highlighting a personal touch with birthday wishes to the host's wife. Furthermore, the discussion reflects on the evolution of their recording setup during the pandemic, adding an element of humor and camaraderie to the conversation.

Key takeaways

  • Miniature golf's rich legacy: St. Andrews birthed it in the 19th century, clowns and windmills came later.
  • Jerry conquers remote recording: COVID-19 turned her into a digital wizard. Miso might have helped.
  • Putt putt evokes childhood magic: A nostalgic mix of G.I. Joe, go-karts, and questionable water traps.
  • Go-kart enthusiasts unite: Even sly teenagers can't resist revealing which kart will leave others in the dust.
  • Stone Mountain Park: Where wholesome putt putt nights blur the line between skill and waterfall arcs.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Chuck Bryan, Lake Erie, Stone Mountain Park
  2. – 10:00: Ladies' Putting Club of St Andrews, Lord Wellwood, Victorian era
  3. – 15:00: Heather Downs Country Club, Hidden Hills, James Barber, Pinehurst, North Carolina
  4. – 20:00: Rock City, Ruby Falls, Chattanooga, Fairyland Club
  5. – 25:00: Tom Thumb Golf, Rock City, South of the Border, Garnett Carter
  6. – 30:00: Don Clayton, Freda Carter, Tom Thumb Golf
  7. – 35:00: Don Clayton, Stone Mountain Park
  8. – 40:00: Don Clayton, Grantland, Rick Baird
  9. – 45:00: Myrtle Beach, Algrim Acres, Hawaiian Rumble, Highway 17
  10. – 48:08: Marbbeth, abandoned miniature golf courses, Apple Podcast, Catalina Island

Notable quotes from "Selects: How Miniature Golf Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"

  • So, I grew up playing putt at Stone Mountain Park, which we went to a lot, because it was near our church and the youth group would go and do putt nights and stuff.
    about Stone Mountain Park · at
  • It's the ladies putting Club of St.
    about Ladies' Putting Club of St Andrews · at
  • America. And it did. And we can actually trace that too to the house of a guy named James Barber who is an immigrant from England who was familiar with the course, the ladies putting club at St.
    about James Barber · at
  • Tennessee in Chattanooga, which is a place where I think everybody should go to see Ruby Falls in Rock City.
    about Rock City · at
  • This statuary of cute little, Mother Goose type stuff. And they actually called the whole thing Tom Thumb Golf. Tom Thumb, from what I understand, is the earliest recorded…
    about Tom Thumb Golf · at
  • Yeah. It's if you've ever driven around the North Carolina, South Carolina area and south of the border.
    about South of the Border · at
  • Saying, You're about to have a nervous breakdown. I prescribe you a month's rest from work. And this guy Don Clayton said, Can do and he started playing miniature golf. But he wasn't quite satisfied with it.
    about Don Clayton · at
  • It. So, the United States is the home of miniature golf and the world capital of miniature golf then is Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, which is ironic that it's not North Carolina, but it's not everybody. I'm sorry.
    about Myrtle Beach · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Don Clayton — Person · 6 mentions · first at
  • James Barber — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Freda Carter — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Yeah, for sure. They're definitely old timey. So these people Garnett and Freda Carter, they built a resort called Fairyland Club and it was part of that whole sort of…
  • Marbbeth — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Podcasting. So grateful to have multiple episodes to listen to every week. That is from Marbbeth and she says, PS, I should add that the episode on fractals is now infamously…
  • Chuck Bryan — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there and there's Jerry there figuring out all the new contrivances of modern life.
  • Lord Wellwood — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Well, and then there's this, which is from an 1890 book by Scottish Baron Lord Wellwood talking about women and when they should golf, when they shouldn't golf, if they choose I was going to do a Scottish accent, but I'm just not.
  • Garnett Carter — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Their fairyland inn and Fairyland club. but it was such a smash hit and Garnett Carter was such a like born businessman that they were like I think there might be something to this and they saw either they saw it out or he sought them out.
  • Rick Baird — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Grantland documentary on the most recent perfect putt game by a guy named Rick Baird who had his perfect game in 2011.
  • Al Llama — Person · 1 mention
  • Drake Delanoy — Person · 1 mention
  • Jack Nicklaus — Person · 1 mention
  • John Ledbetter — Person · 1 mention
  • Ralph Llama — Person · 1 mention
  • Thomas McCulloch Fairbairn — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

Companies & orgs

Concepts & topics

  • Victorian era — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    The Victorian era was just so stupid when it came to social constraints.
  • historic mini golf trail — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    You can go down to Florida and they have a historic mini golf trail that takes you from a miniature golf course to miniature golf course. All of which have been around for at least 50 years.
  • abandoned miniature golf courses — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    And if you like weird old stuff that's not in use anymore, look up abandoned miniature golf courses.
  • fractals — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Episodes to listen to every week. That is from Marbbeth and she says, PS, I should add that the episode on fractals is now infamously nap inducing in my family, but I blame the long stretch of highway on that.

Places & events

  • Rock City — Place · 6 mentions · first at
  • Ruby Falls — Place · 3 mentions · first at
    Tennessee in Chattanooga, which is a place where I think everybody should go to see Ruby Falls in Rock City.
  • Palatine, Illinois — Place · 3 mentions
  • Stone Mountain Park — Place · 2 mentions · first at
  • Lookout Mountain — Place · 2 mentions · first at
    Totally. and then later that same year, you said it was kind of a boom year for mini golf. Lookout Mountain, Tennessee in Chattanooga, which is a place where I think everybody should go to see Ruby Falls in Rock City.
  • South of the Border — Place · 2 mentions · first at
  • Myrtle Beach — Place · 2 mentions · first at
  • Fayetteville, North Carolina — Place · 2 mentions
  • Thistle Dhu — Place · 2 mentions
  • Lake Erie — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Lot. And then when my family would vacation in the summers on Kataba Island on Lake Erie, and this is like pre-cleaned up Lake Erie, there was a like a rundown little like mini golf with like clowns mouths and.
  • Heather Downs Country Club — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Weirdly enough, because this is not like my family at all, had a membership at Heather Downs Country Club in Oh, well.
  • Hidden Hills — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Yeah. There's the and I didn't get to go here much cuz it was private, but Hidden Hills was a big neighborhood near my house that had a country club that's still around, isn't it?
  • Pinehurst, North Carolina — Place · 1 mention · first at
    He said, I want a miniature golf course built on my estate at Pinehurst, North Carolina. And he did.
  • Chattanooga — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Year, you said it was kind of a boom year for mini golf. Lookout Mountain, Tennessee in Chattanooga, which is a place where I think everybody should go to see Ruby Falls in Rock City.
  • Mason–Dixon line — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Mhm. South of the Mason Dixon line.
  • Molten Mountain — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Go-karts and the bumper boats and the mini golf. And they have one called Molten Mountain. that's pretty cool.
  • Hawaiian Rumble — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Thing. They're not the only one. That's how nutso Myrtle Beach is. There's another one called Hawaiian Rumble that also has a functioning volcano, too. And in fact, on Highway…
  • Highway 17 — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Another one called Hawaiian Rumble that also has a functioning volcano, too. And in fact, on Highway 17, there's a 30-m stretch of it that goes through Myrtle Beach where…
  • Algrim Acres — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Saw a couple of these from Travel and Leisure maybe. this one's called Algrim Acres. A L G H I M Acres. It's in Palentine, Illinois. Illinois. And it's a funeral home, like for real, in real life.
  • Park King — Place · 1 mention · first at
    No, it looked fun. The one that I would actually travel to go play is called Park King. It's in Lincolnshshire, Illinois. So, I'd probably go there and then I'd dip down or dip up, I'm not sure, to Palentine to play at Algra Makers. Okay.
  • Golf Gardens — Place · 1 mention · first at
    And then if you want to play So, I think Chuck, this one would be up your alley. It's called Golf Gardens in Cat on Catalina Island in SoCal.
  • Catalina Island — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Think Chuck, this one would be up your alley. It's called Golf Gardens in Cat on Catalina Island in SoCal.
  • East Potomac Park — Place · 1 mention
  • Himalayas (St Andrews putting course) — Place · 1 mention
  • Isle of Palms — Place · 1 mention
  • Kelleys Island — Place · 1 mention
  • Lincolnshire, Illinois — Place · 1 mention
  • Ponce City Market — Place · 1 mention
  • Scranton, Pennsylvania — Place · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

Hey everyone, I thought it would be nice to ring in the new year with an easy select filled with Chuck and me reminiscing about our childhood memories of putt pud and slush puppies. So for this week's select, I give you our August 2020 episode, a miniature golf. And want to take a moment to wish my dear wife Yumi a happy birthday. So happy birthday, Yumi. And to you, dear listeners, happy new year. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there and there's Jerry there figuring out all the new contrivances of modern life.

Yeah. I mean, we should tell people what's going on. I think it's interesting right?

No. Well, I'm going to tell him. Fine. So, Jerry has figured out now how to operate the studio Macintosh recording system.

Sure. And not be in the office. It's pretty great. It's It's COVID rific actually.

And so, she was just up on our Skype on video and she's still there. But when she switched it to mute, it went to that distressing picture. Do you see that thing? No, I just see JR. Like the letter J and the letter R.

Oh, see. Oh, there she is. She's back. Okay. When she turned it off, there was I get a a photograph of Jerry that looks like she's like sick in bed or something. It's weird.

This is a Well, that's just Jerry's look. Maybe. So, I don't know. That's That's a diet of nothing but miso for 15 20 years will do for you.

The weirdest thing is this is as close as we've come to normal in four months. I know. Not only is it like normal, it's almost like a throwback. Remember when we had the studio where we would look out the window when she was there?

Yeah. Yeah. That was great. This is kind of like this again. She was a window creeper.

Yeah. Professionally and in her personal life too. That's right. So, this is stuff you should know everybody. I don't know if I said it. There are probably a few people who are confused and aren't anymore. Um, but we haven't gotten started yet. So, prepare to be confused again when we explain something. In particular, Chuck, miniature golf.

I got to ask, are you a fan? Uh, this made me want to play again. Like, I grew up playing putt putt.

Um, and have very fond memories of all the different colored golf balls and, you know, all like the water trap that was really just a stagnant little puddle

of concrete, you know. But Pup was wonderful and great and there were arcades and birthday parties there that featured heavily with G.I. Joe action figures and stuff like that. The good kind, the three and 3/4 inch ones.

Um, and yeah, I have I I am a fan if not just nostalgically. Um, in general, yes. And which style? And as you as a listener will see soon, there are a couple of different things, but did you grow up playing

just sort of the barebones putt putt or the more miniature golf clowns mouth windmill volcano?

Well, Chuck, if you ask me if I had a rich childhood, I will always tell you yes, sir. Yes, I did. And the reason why is because I grew up having putt putt close by in Toledo and we played that a lot. And then when my family would vacation in the summers on Kataba Island on Lake Erie,

and this is like pre-cleaned up Lake Erie, there was a like a rundown little like mini golf with like clowns mouths and windmills and all that stuff right by the place where we used to stay like walking distance. And so we'd play there a lot too. So I had the best of both worlds. a really great just top-notch childhood.

So, I grew up playing putt putt at Stone Mountain Park, which we went to a lot, uh, because it was near our church and the youth group would go and do putt putt nights and stuff.

Mhm. So, that was a lot of fun. Uh, and I was sort of partial to those that like, you know, the real putt putt where it requires a little bit of skill.

Mhm. Uh, but I am also a sucker for the beach town. Uh, volcano waterfall uh go-kart bumper boat, arcade scene. [snorts]

Yep. Don't forget laser tag. I never really did laser tag. I think that came around a little after I was, you know, in my prime years for this kind of thing.

Gotcha. Yeah, it wasn't it. Same here. But I was looking up now. They have laser tag at putt putt places. But I still love those go-karts, man. We when we go to Isisle of Palms last year,

I found a place nearby. I was like, "We got to go." And everyone was kind of like, "Oh, I don't know." And the kids were sort of like, "Yeah, I guess I'll do it." And I was like, "Guys, we got to go

right?" Like, "What is wrong with all of you? Who are you vacationing with, Chuck?"

Oh, man. It was so much fun. Is there a carbon monoxide leak at the house you rent?

No, those go-karts. I could do that all day long. Yeah, for sure. And of course, I got the guy, you know, the teenager, squeaky [clears throat] voice teenager,

and I said, "Hey, man, which which one? Which which is the fast one?" And he was like, "Number eight."

Really? Oh, yeah. And sure enough, it was really fast. You just ran circles around everybody.

I did such that I even laid off on the gas a little bit just to catch up and let people, you know, act like they had out race.

What a what a sportsman. Oh my goodness. Well, we'll talk about go-karts one day more in depth, but today we're just going to focus on the miniature golf. Okay.

Yeah, this is a pretty interesting history, I think. Yeah, I had no idea how far back it went until we started researching this. And actually, it goes all the way back to the 19th century. And this is one of those rare things that's been around a while, but you can actually pinpoint like the first one. And the first miniature golf course in the world, as far as anybody knows, is at St. Andrews. It's the ladies putting Club of St. Andrews. Um, and it was built in 1867 strictly for the women members of the ladies putting club.

Yeah. There's a couple of things at play here actually. Really just one thing which is

[clears throat and snorts] uh not letting women do things. Yeah. Uh cuz there was a decree basically that women shall not take the club back past their shoulder. Um so

11th commandment. Yeah. Like a real golf swing, in other words, was I guess improper for a for a lady to do.

The Victorian era was just so stupid when it came to social constraints. I'm trying to figure out why. Does that I don't know.

Patriarchy, I would guess. Well, I just wonder why a full golf swing would it make their their dress rate rise a little above the ankle or like I just wonder why. I think also women were expected to not overexert themselves physically, especially in public, too. So, you could kind of construe that as overexertion.

Well, and then there's this, which is from an 1890 book by uh Scottish Baron Lord Wellwood talking about women and when they should golf, when they shouldn't golf,

if they choose I was going to do a Scottish accent, but I'm just not feeling it. uh if they choose to play at times when male golfers are feeding or resting no one can object but at other times must we say it they are in the way

it was kind of snarky to add even the the must we say it like do I even need to to write this next sentence it's so just drippingly obvious

but the long the upshot of this is that's why they created the ladies putting club is just to sort of get rid of them

yeah to get them out of the way of the men. But the joke was on the men because this putting green, this first miniature golf course in the world is still around and it's still considered one of the finest. It's actually nicknamed the Himalayas because it has all these kind of mountains and hills and hillocks all built into it. Um, and [clears throat] they really kind of stand out from what I understand against like the Scottish seascape. Um, and it's a really revered miniature golf course, but it is exactly what it sounds like. It is a golf course in miniature. Like just like you take a classic golf course of the variety that was born in Scotland and you just kind of hit it with a shrink ray and then you have a genuine bonafide miniature golf course. And that's how the whole thing started out.

Yeah. I mean it's it's what we would call like a par three today, right? [clears throat]

Kind of. It seems like par three courses are um a little different. So, this is like Yes, I think you it does require more than just a putter,

right? And a par three would require more than a putter, but there seems to be a few different other kinds of golf courses aside from the miniature golf course. There's the par three, the pitch and putt, and executive courses all kind of qualify technically as miniature golf courses in different ways. Yeah, the executive course they got the name because evidently an executive could go play a quick round during lunch. Uh, a lot of par 3es you might have a like one par five and a couple of par fours.

Is that right? On a par three on an executive course. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's what that's really the only thing from what I can tell that differentiates it from a par three course.

Yeah, it's it's it's a golf course. It's just shorter and therefore it doesn't take as long.

Yeah. And it's not like the hole is smaller and the ball is smaller and the clubs are smaller. Like just just get out of your fantasy land there. Instead, it's just the the distance from the tea to the hole is shorter. There's fewer bends and and stuff like that. So,

the actual experience takes less time and less energy and you can just kind of fit it in in a shorter amount of time. And I think that's the popularity of those things generally. Although pitch and putt courses I also saw they're um they usually consist of a wedge and iron and a putter what you need to play on those. Um and they're all about the focus on the short game. Uh and as a result um men and women just average men and women who play golf can kind of compete pretty evenly because it's all about the short game. It's all about finesse rather than you know just sheer power of driving as far as you can on like a traditional golf course.

Yeah. I mean I love golf. I just don't play anymore. Like I grew up playing golf and was not good, but I wasn't terrible

uh for as much as I played. And I still like it. I just don't, you know, have the time or the inclination anymore. But um I like [clears throat] the big boy courses with the big parfs, but I also love a fun little par three. Like uh Florida has a lot of these beautiful par 3s, including some you can play at night that are all lit up. Um and that's always a lot of fun, too.

Yeah. I I tried to get acquainted with golf as a youngster. Um my family had, weirdly enough, because this is not like my family at all, had a um membership at Heather Downs Country Club in

Oh, well. Yeah. And I love the pool because they had like, you know, tons of slush puppies and the best like nasty hot dogs you can imagine. Um and there was a pool and all that. I think I told you the story about swim league, the swim team where I was the worst swimmer on it. Yeah. But I also tried to golf for a couple of summers and it just didn't didn't take it up. But I was back in Toledo like a couple years ago, I think right before our Cleveland show and I visited the country club. Well, I just drove by

and [clears throat] I looked and the pool is now just like a green field. It's been filled in like the little the little um snack shop has been torn down. I'm like something really bad must have happened there for them to do that to the pool, you know?

Yeah. There's uh the and I didn't get to go here much cuz it was private, but Hidden Hills was a big neighborhood near my house that had a country club

that's still around, isn't it? Well, the neighborhood's there, but you know, the neighborhood has seen its better days. And the the country club and golf course is completely just shut down and grown over. It's really It looks Well, it is an abandoned place.

That's so cool. It is kind of cool. And and then I had the idea of a movie like a old school type thing where a bunch of old a bunch of like middle-aged men that grew up there go back and raise some money and try and like clean the place up and get it going again.

Yeah. To hilarity. There has to be like a greedy developer that they're battling, right?

Oh yeah. So is that the neighborhood that we got kicked out of when we tried to go shoot like without a license once around that area?

Remember the security guard came up like stop what you're doing? I don't remember that.

Yeah, it happened one day. Was it on the TV show or a short some gorilla? No, it was like when we were shooting shorts, I think.

I don't remember that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was the one. Should we take a break already?

Sure. Okay. All right. We'll get back and we'll talk about where mini golf went from here right after this. Drop S Y SK K S Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S SK K S K.

All right, so we're back. Nothing we've talked about right now constitutes miniature golf in the mind of anybody who hears the words miniature golf, right?

True. like what what comes to mind are things like Putt Putt or Goofy Golf or Windmills or Clowns or Happy Gilmore or something like that, right?

Yeah. So, um that all started actually that didn't quite start yet. It was really leading up to that and then I realized we had to keep going with regular miniature golf one more time because it has to spread to America. And it did. And we can actually trace that too um to the house of a guy named James Barber who is an immigrant from England who was familiar with the course, the ladies putting club at St. Andrews. Um and he was rich enough that he said, "You know, I want a miniature golf course built on my estate um at Pinehurst, North Carolina." And he did.

He had like an 18hole miniature course built right there in his his formal gardens. And it's just absolutely beautiful.

It is nice. And uh this was the first one in the United States and as it's called thistle do uh t h i s t l e d h u and supposedly as legend goes he when he first saw it he said this will do.

I guess he was uh uh he was not blown away maybe I don't know sounds a little he wasn't one of those spoil brat you know robber barons and instead was like this will do this will do quite nicely and they just left off the the second part you know. Yeah, but it's called Thistled and uh they started hosting competitions a couple years later

and I think this is the first time miniature golf was ever used like those words were ever used to describe the Pinehurst outlook. Uh was that the newspaper I guess?

Yeah, it's their one claim to fame. Oh, you know it's true though. That's probably true. Yeah, but that they were the one in that in a account of the competition they coined the term miniature golf. Up to that point, a lot of people had called it Liilipuchian golf.

Sure. After the uh the little people in Guliver Guliver's travels. Yeah. And that actually that name actually stuck for quite a while. Um so we've got James Barber who hosted or built the first miniature golf course in America. But still, this thing is like directly connected to the Ladies Putting Club of St. Andrews. It's a golf course in miniature. We still haven't quite reached what we would consider miniature golf. And that wouldn't happen until 1926, which turned out to be a really big year for miniature golf in America.

It was like there was something in the air, and a few different people kind of tapped into it around the same time, and it suddenly just took off like a rocket.

Yeah. Two of the guys were uh some entrepreneurs named Drake uh Delanoi, I guess.

Crazy name. John Leb better. Another good name. [clears throat] And that's okay. He sounds like he'll he'll shoot you.

Lead Better. Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. Uh they did a pretty cool thing, which is they opened up a course on top of a rooftop in the financial district in New York. And that kicked off a trend. There were, I think, uh, about a hundred of those on top of roofs. I guess this is before the big, uh, rooftop bar hotel scene. They had golf courses up there.

Yeah. Miniature golf courses. Again, though, those were like miniature golf courses. So, that I mean, that was a big deal in New York. Just a hundred rooftop golf miniature golf courses alone in the 20s. That's that's a tremendous amount.

Um, and I don't think there's a single one left actually. Um, there should be. There's there's So that kind of makes the whole you know there's one on on top of Pont City Market where the House Stuff Works office is. Um

is there golf up there? There's a miniature golf course up there and it makes a lot more sense now. Yeah. It's kind of like a whole mini Coney Island up there.

Yeah. I mean I think I've only been up there when we had work events and the only thing I did was the slide.

Uh I didn't know there was a slide. Yeah. There's like a you know you sit in a potato sack and go down this big slide.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I did that. That was fun. Yeah, there's a there's a miniature golf course up there. We'll have to play sometime when the whole pandemic passes.

Totally. Uh and then later that same year, you said it was kind of a boom year for mini golf. Uh Lookout Mountain, Tennessee in Chattanooga, which is a place where I think everybody should go to see Ruby Falls in Rock City.

Oh, yes. It is a tourist trap, but it's actually kind of neat. I mean, the greatest of the great tourist traps. And it still holds up, too.

Yeah. Get a uh a pecan log. Oh my god, those are so good. They are so good. They're so That's what that also supports my theory that candy was perfected in the 19th century.

I've never heard remember nougat, honeycomb. Sure. Pecan logs. Was that I didn't know pecan logs were from way back then, but I believe it.

Yeah, for sure. They're definitely old timey. So these people uh Garnett and Freda Carter, they built a resort called Fairyland Club and it was part of that whole sort of interconnected scene there with Rock City and Ruby Falls. And they built a miniature golf course and they said, "You know what? Uh if you like golf, uh maybe you should try mini golf because it doesn't take very long. It'll kind of scratch that itch if you're not able to play a real round." And that's sort of how they marketed it at first. And they they were the first people, I think, to start adding the obstacles, right?

They did. Yeah. And um they used as they were building like the inn and the resort complex, they used some of the construction materials like drain pipes and, you know, barrels and things like that and used built them as hazards. And then because they had this whole like fairy tale theme going up there, they also built Rock City. They were the ones who built Rock City and that has like a cool little weird weird but also very neat fairy tale theme kind of hidden throughout.

Um they they added that to their miniature golf course. So they they had these stationary obstacles and hazards that they added and then they also added this statuary of cute little, you know, Mother Goose type stuff. And they actually called the whole thing Tom Thumb Golf. Tom Thumb, from what I understand, is the earliest recorded English fairy tale character from back in 1621. And he was a little tiny guy the size of his father's thumb, which is where he got his name. So, it was a pretty appropriate name. They they must have really like been pretty pleased with themselves when they decided to call it Tom Thumb Golf because it really it checked all the boxes.

Yeah. And we should mention too, we keep saying Rock City, and if you're not from the southeast, you might think it's just some like redneck area with a bunch of rocks. It's actually a very sweet natural wonder. It's it's caves that you walk through.

Caves. It's huge boulders being held up by much much smaller boulders that have been that way for probably tens of thousands of years that you walk under. There's like Yeah. There there's little cave areas that you kind of duck into and they have little fairy tale scenes with fluorescent day or fluorescent um yeah I guess kind of day glow.

It's like glow-in-the-dark weird like gnomes and in fairy tale scenes like that's the weird part. It's like if Carl's Bad Caverns had, you know, some corny uh fairy theme.

Mhm. And then Ruby Falls is really neat, too. Yeah. It's a very cool like natural attraction that they've done a good job of like underground making it easy to to make your way to. But yeah, it's a the whole thing is definitely worth going to. And then of course they have this the very famous like Sea Rock City uh barn sides that everybody's heard of. That was uh that was Garnet Carter who painted one man or paid one man to go around and offer to to give a fresh coat of paint to barns all throughout the southeast. is great.

In exchange for letting them paint Sea Rock City on the side. Yeah. It's um if you've ever driven around the North Carolina, South Carolina area and south of the border. You know what I'm talking about?

Mhm. South of the Mason Dixon line. No, South of the border is the name of this uh sort of highway tourist trap that

Oh, no. I haven't heard of that. Yeah, it's it's it's the same deal. I think it's I want to say it's North Carolina, but it's basically like a glorified rest stop with that's has a Mexican theme.

Uhhuh. Where you can go like I don't know see a mariachi band and eat good food and buy cheap chachkis.

The only mariachi band in all of North Carolina. But what made me think about it it might be was that uh they have the same thing for like hundreds of miles in any direction for south of the border and rock city. They're very famous for these billboards that tell you like, "Oh, it's coming. You're getting closer. You're getting closer."

I That's really strange that I've never heard of that then. Yeah. South of the border. Check it out.

Must not have been paying attention. So So the Carters built like this Tom Thumb Golf Course. And again, originally they just did this as kind of an amenity at their fairyland inn and Fairyland um club. Uh, but it was such a smash hit and Garnett Carter was such a a like born businessman that um they they they were like I think there might be something to this and they saw either they saw it out or he sought them out. I'm not quite sure how it happened but there was another guy who really factors bigly into this whole story but he's very frequently overlooked and his name is Thomas McCullik Fairburn. McCulla Fairburn.

Yeah. Um and he invented a really cheap and easy technique for creating artificial putting greens that could be used for miniature golf courses.

Yeah. It was a crushed cotton seed holes, uh oil, you would dye it green, and they would come in these big rolls and you just roll it over this foundation of sand and boom, you've got an easy way basically to sort of franchise these things with these prefab kits that they they had. And people loved it um because it was, you know, when it was, they called it golf for a little while. Not a term we would use today, [clears throat] but that's what they called it in the 1920s,

right? And this factors in to a lot of stuff we've been talking about the 1920s lately.

Just these weird fads that would pop up. And Tom Thumb Golf was one of them. It was um and part of the reason that it got out from Lookout Mountain is because the Carters and um Fairburn kind of joined forces and used his technique for making these greens very cheaply and used their kind of like touch of whimsy, packaged it together and started selling it prepackaged sets or pre-fabricated sets um that could be franchised out to anybody who wanted to start their own TomT Thumb Golf Course. And so they spread really really quickly and like you were saying like the 20s they were just looking for whatever craze could come along. Crossword puzzles, dance marathons, flag pole sitting. Well, apparently miniature golf was the king of them all as far as the 20s crazes went.

Yeah, this is a pretty startling statistic. Uh, in August of 1930, the Commerce Department said that there were, and apparently this could be low by even as much as half, 25,000 25,000 mini golf courses in the US,

half of which were built in that previous 6 or 8 months of the year. Yeah, that's a boom right there.

Can you imagine like in 8 months like 12 to 15,000 mini golf courses being built in the US?

Mhm. That's crazy. I can just imagine Garnet and Freda Carter just rolling around on a bet of money in their suite at the fairy land in

Yeah. And I mean in a legit like job boosting market. Yeah. No. Well, that's a that's another thing too, right? I mean like there was um uh uh like flag pole sitting didn't make the transition to the depression and dance marathons did, but they got kind of grim. Um, apparently miniature golf, and I've seen both, but but miniature golf seems to have made the transition from 20's craze to, you know, kind of national pastime. That that made sense in the depression because you could take your whole family out to play miniature golf for pretty cheap.

Um, a nickel or something that that was a big attraction. Um, and then also if you were like a golf junkie, but all of a sudden you didn't have the money to afford greens fees any longer, at the very least you could go play some miniature golf somewhere. So, it kind of scratched that itch to a certain um a certain degree. So, there was like a lot of popularity that even after the craze kind of crested and waned a little bit, um, it still carried on pretty pretty thoroughly through the 1930s. And as a matter of fact, Chuck, some for some people were like, "That Tom Thumb golf, the official franchise Tom Thumb Golf, it's a little rich for my blood. What else you got for me?"

Yeah. Like, "Why can't we just do this?" Yeah. Exactly. Local entrepreneurs were like, "I've got exactly the thing, buddy. You want to play halfpriced miniature golf? Come on in."

Like, I've got a bunch of PVC pipe laying around. Yeah. Or Yeah. So just basically whatever found objects you could find, you you could you could come across what were called rinky dink miniature golf courses that were basically knockoff Tom Thumb courses that used whatever found objects the the person who built it had lying around.

Yeah. New York had about 150 of them. Uh Washington DC had 30. One of those is still around. The East Potoic Park course.

Yeah. And uh yeah, the whole family could get involved. And I think one of the the keys then and now to many golf being popular and then putt putt, which we'll see here in a minute, is that you don't even have to like golf at all. You can hate golf and still go do putt putt and probably have a good time.

Yeah. As long as you don't take it too seriously. Don't take it too seriously. Just have fun.

Please don't. Just relax. Don't be that guy. That's what it's for. Um, you want to take a break and then talk putt putt? Yes. Okay, let's do that everybody. S Y L Y S K S K.

Are we there? Who? Me? Are we there? Are we at Butt butt? Oh, I thought you said are you there? I'm like, yeah, I'm here. We are there, Chuck, because um let me set the set the table here. You ready?

Yes. I'm hungry. Uh, America got a little burned out on miniature golf, especially the Tom Thumb and Rinky Ding varieties. Um, and so a lot of it died out, but some remained, some hopped along. Some are still around today, actually. And by the 1950s, um, there was a guy who was playing at one of these courses in Fagetville, North Carolina, which remember is the home of miniature golf in the United States. North Carolina is.

Mhm. and um he happened to have just gotten a prescription from his doctor saying, "You're about to have a nervous breakdown. I prescribe you a month's rest from work." And this guy Don Clayton said, "Can do" and he started playing miniature golf. But he wasn't quite satisfied with it.

Yeah. I imagine if you were um on the verge of a nervous breakdown, then to thumb golf is a nice sav for that kind of kind of experience.

Sure. If if you're charmed by all the whimsical stuff and you don't take it too seriously,

right? From what I understand though, Don Clayton was like, "This whimsy sucks. We need something better than this." And I think I'm just the person to build it.

Yeah. So, he had the idea to to basically make miniature golf, but without all the garbage, um, no clowns mounts, no windmills, and have a little like have have a little skill involved. Like you can go out there and if you're like a good putter, you can actually com compete and have a good time and it's still for fun, but it's just not a silly kids game anymore.

Yeah. Like anybody who's been to an actual putt putt course can tell you that it's I mean there's a lot of obstacles and it's interesting and fun and there's some neat stuff, but it does it just does not have all of like the the moving bells and whistles that you're going to see on like other kinds of miniature golf like goofy golf.

No, like the obstacles are usually just like some blocks in the way and stuff like that.

Yeah. You have to hit around or bank it around. elevated elevated rhombuses or things like that or like a labyrinth, you know, built into it. Um, it's not like a a clown's mouth or anything like that, which is kind of like the go-to description for goofy golf, isn't it? Really?

Yeah. And I think like the the craziest thing you'll see on a putt putt course is where you those that are like two levels and you can hit it into three different holes at the top.

Mhm. And you're like you kind of take a little bit of a gamble as to where it's going to come out on the bottom. Uh,

sure. It'll either come out close to the hole so you can get that par two and I think they're all par twos on a real putt putt course,

right? Or it'll spit you out way far away, but you still have a chance to hit that long putt for the for the two.

Sure, there's always a chance for you. A second chance at putt putt. I think that was the motto. So, um, yeah, but so this was Don Clayton's vision. He was like, I I want to make this a little less goofy. I want to make it a little more interesting and and skillful. Less goofy, more golfy.

Yeah. Yeah, Chuck. Man, he just sat up from his grave going, "I wish I'd thought of that."

Is he dead? Yeah, he died in 1996. Yeah. Okay. But he had a good run. I mean, this is 1954 when he was a 28-year-old man that he decided to try this.

So, uh, he went to his dad and said, "Hey, I've got this I've got this idea." Rather than basically, as a New York Times obituary put it, um rather than basic basically making a a humansized pinball machine for golf, we're going to make this a little more interesting. How about we cobble together 5,200 bucks and we're going to build our own little miniature golf course? And he did. And like a a shaded little um lot. And with that $5,200, they opened for business. And within 29 days, he and his father had made 100% of their investment back.

And Don Clayton said, "I think there might be something to this whole thing." Yeah. So, he uh he was initially going to call it he went to the bank to open a business account and he had to fill out the paperwork and he was going to call it the Shady Veil Golf Course. But

yeah, this is hilarious. As the story goes, he didn't know how to spell veil. I guess if it was V A I L or V A L E. Mhm.

So he just said, "Uh, putt putt and wrote down putt." It wasn't something he brainstormed. Apparently, it was just sort of on a whim.

Yeah. And it's a name that really really stuck. It's kind of brilliant in its simplicity. I think

divine inspiration. It almost feels like um that it just kind of happened on a whim. That's just absolutely great. But um he started to kind of build the whole thing into like this enormous industry pretty quickly because he was right. You know, there's I did the math. If they made their $5,200 back in 29 days, that means that over that month they had 20,800 paying customers.

A quarter a game. 25 cents a game. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of people. And so when they really got together and started putt putt, like they they he was right. He was on to something. and it started to take off pretty quickly. Apparently at its peak um when you and I were going to putt Putt,

uh they were they they had something like 256 courses throughout the world. Um mostly in the US and Canada, but also in Australia and South Africa and New Zealand. Um and it was uh it was definitely a thing. Like you said, all of the holes were part twos, right?

Yeah. And this was just to be clear, 256 doesn't sound like a lot compared to the 50,000 that uh they had in the 1930s, but

this was his his own putt putt golf and games franchise, right? There was plenty of more putt putt going on in the United States than that.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Like knockoff putt putt. Right. Yeah. Like the one at Stone Mountain Park wasn't a putt putt golfing games. It was just putt putt. But it was it was great.

It was called Tap Tap. They also had trail skate across from the putt putt, which was a roller skating trail through the woods.

What? Yeah. It was like this two-mile paved, you know, just basically like a big paved sidewalk through the woods and they rented roller skates and you would just skate through the woods. It was really cool,

man. That's awesome. Country folk just have some of the best ideas for businesses. You know what I mean?

I didn't think of us as country folk, but I guess it kind of was. Uh, roller skating through the woods country.

I guess it is. That's like Dolly Parton level country. So, yeah, they're all part twos. Um, and it is it is tough. It's challenging. Apparently, in the 65 year history of putt putt, there have only been three perfect games where you walk away with a score of 18, which is that's that's really tough to do. I mean, like, of the millions and millions of games that of putt putt that people have played, only three people have ever ever gotten a perfect game, which kind of shows you how like deceptively hard a putt putt course is. You know, like each one of those each one of those courses is made of um I think they have something like 108

uh trademarked holes, right? Or like uh lanes, I think, is what they're called in miniature golf. um to where you can just kind of take them and and reconfigure them into different different configurations. But they have 108 total and I guess each one of them is very very difficult. I don't ever remember getting a perfect game or even imagining that I was going to get a perfect game.

No, I you get a two or three holes in one and that's a that's a good day for sure. So 18. There's actually a short I think seven and a half minute Grantland documentary on the most recent perfect putt putt game by a guy named Rick Baird who had his perfect game in 2011.

Can you imagine the tension on hole 18? They capture it really well in this in this documentary. It's really well done. They've got like it like a cartoon version of him putting and he's got like cartoon sweat just running down his face.

Oh man, really great. So nervous. Yeah, it was very nervous and he did it and he's actually a a miniature golf pro um in his spare time which we'll talk about later. But there's So he's from Charlotte. Um Don Clayton was from Fagatville and then um Joseph Barber was from Pinehurst. So it seems pretty clear that North Carolina is the ancestral home of miniature golf or at least the spiritual home of miniature golf in the world. Frankly, I'm just going to say it in the world.

Yeah. And if you're looking for the creators of the uh kind of mechanized courses, uh you can go to 1955 and Scranton, PA with Ralph and Al LMA. Um previous to this, you know, you had the Putt Putt, which just had those sort of regular obstacles. You had the Tom Thumb, which had kind of more outrageous whimsy, but still things weren't moving. And these are the guys that brought in these rotating windmill blades or ramps that move back and forth. And they really kind of kicked that to the next level. And uh they, you know, they went into business big time. They started mass-producing these things like the actual components and sold a ton of them all over the world.

Yeah. I think like 5,000 courses. Yeah. Which is pretty impressive. They're the ones who came up with what we think of now as like miniature golf and goofy golf with the moving stuff.

Not a fan. The clown mouth. Don't forget the clown mouth that opens and closes or Yeah, like you say, a windmill. Um, so it's kind of interesting that Don Clayton brought miniature golf back to its roots of being a lot more like regular golf and then very shortly after that branched off the llas who brought it back to their that Tom Thumb roots. So that whole thing, the evolution of miniature golf happened twice in just the same way. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah. And it also came back full circle in the '9s with a return to sort of that original miniature golf

because real golfers, people like Jack Nicholas started to get involved. Uh I'm sure there were dollar signs, you know, in his eyes.

Sure. But he also probably loved it. I don't want to be cynical, but I'm sure he made some money. Uh but they have competitions. You know, there are actual um prize purses. There is a US Pro mini golf association. They have their own little US Open. I don't think they call it the little US Open. Uh

they should though. They totally should. There's the World Miniolf Sports Federation in Germany.

And they sort of are the the body that standardizes the obstacles and stuff like that on I guess what you can have and what you can't have.

Yeah. Which is kind of funny when you think about it. It is. But it's a pretty interesting list. You're like, "Oh, that'd be tough. Oh, that's hard." The sloped circle with a V obstacle. Yeah,

that's just plain difficult. Um, and I I think they should call it the teeny weeny US Open.

Welcome back to the teeny weeny US Open. I was looking at the um the uh US Pro Miniolf Association's website and um there was a Tennessee State Open and man, the picture that they have of that course, it looks serious, dude.

Yeah. So, like if you if you go to putt and you always were like, I love this. This is so challenging. I can score like a 16 some or I guess not a 16. I just don't play the last two holes when I'm on a streak. Um, you know, like a a 20 or a 22 or something like that. You might actually have fun being a miniature golf pro. And there are some serious courses out there for you to play that are a couple of notches above your average putt putt course.

I'd like to play one of those. Would you? I don't know if I would have fun. make my club.

Should we talk about some of these famous courses? Yeah. So, um, from what I can tell, the United States is the home of miniature golf. It's the capital of miniature golf. I don't believe there's any country. Like, I was looking, I was like, maybe Thailand is like even more into it than the United States. I don't think so. I think the United States is the place that has the most miniature golf courses and has probably the most paying customers for miniature golf courses.

I can see Japan. I could too. I didn't see anything like that. Yeah, I didn't see anything like it. So, the United States is the home of miniature golf and the world capital of miniature golf then is Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, which is ironic that it's not North Carolina, but it's not everybody. I'm sorry.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, My Myrtle Beach is sort of one of those classic old school beach towns that has all of the the go-karts and the bumper boats and the mini golf. And they have one called Molten Mountain. Uh that's pretty cool. Like, you should go check out pictures of some of these places. They're a lot of fun. Uh that that has a volcano, a working volcano that erupts every half hour.

And it's sort of an inside and an out thing. Like I think it's both indoors and outdoors, right?

It is. Yeah, it's a pretty it's a pretty great one. and the the whole volcano thing. They're not the only one. That's how nutso Myrtle Beach is. There's another one called Hawaiian Rumble that also has a functioning volcano, too. And in fact, on Highway 17, there's a 30-m stretch of it that goes through Myrtle Beach where there's 50 more than 50 miniature golf courses in a 30 mile stretch through Myrtle Beach.

And I'm sure a lot of opinions on which ones are good and which ones stink. Yep. [snorts] Um there's one I want to go to in Palentine, Illinois. I think I saw a couple of these from Travel and Leisure maybe. Um, this one's called Algrim Acres. A L G H I M Acres. It's in Palentine, Illinois. Illinois. And it's a funeral home, like for real, in real life.

Yeah. Like, you know, uh they they take care of dead bodies. And you can also play Nine Holes on their death themed course in the basement.

In the basement. First of all, the basement of a funeral home is just creepy on its own. Yeah. But a death themed miniature golf course in a funeral home that actually functions. That's That's just downright interesting.

Yeah. There's this one in Las Vegas, too, the Kiss themed one, which I checked out on YouTube. I would I would play this even though it goes against two things for me, which is not into indoor miniature golf. I really would like to be outside.

Uh and I think Kiss sucks. What? I thought you were a Kiss fan. No. Oh, man. I thought you were a Kiss fan.

No, not a Kiss fan. Never. I mean, you know, I get it and I think it's kind of fun and funny.

Sure. But I never thought Kiss was like played good rock and roll songs. Really?

That's very surprising. I know Kiss fans are going to be so mad at me for saying their music is not good. But I mean, there's a reason they they dressed up and spit blood and stuff.

So, there's a But still, it'd be worth playing. I I agree. No, it looked fun. The one that I would actually travel to go play um is called Park King. It's in Lincolnshshire, Illinois. So, I'd probably go there and then I'd dip down or dip up, I'm not sure, to Palentine to play at Algra Makers. Okay.

But Park King is like exactly what it is. It's the pinnacle of a miniature golf course if you ask me. It's got it all. It's difficult and it has all of the amazing obstacles and weird traps and um functioning problems to figure out that that a miniature golf course should have.

It looked pretty cool. I mean, I'm a putt putt guy, but I was checking out pictures and stuff. I would I would go I would go to parking with you for sure.

Okay, we'll go. It's going to be a summer trip in 2022 or three. Fantastic. [snorts]

Um and then if you want to play So, I think Chuck, this one would be up your alley. It's called Golf Gardens in Cat on Catalina Island in in SoCal.

Yeah. Right up my alley. This one is like considered the hardest miniature golf course in the United States. Um not just because it uh it's difficultly laid out, but also because it's been played so much that's got all sorts of weird notches and stuff that's not supposed to be there.

Yeah. In the playing surface. So that makes it all the more difficult, which is kind of neat.

I love that. And then if you want to go retro, I think that one's been around a while. Um, you can go down to Florida and they have a historic mini golf trail that takes you from a miniature golf course to miniature golf course. All of which have been around for at least 50 years.

Amazing. Uh, and if you like weird old stuff that's not in use anymore, look up abandoned miniature golf courses. That's a fun thing to do. And since I said it's a fun thing to do, everybody, that means it's time for listener mail. All right, I'm going to call this dad mail. got this very sweet email. I love it when the families listen, you know.

Sure. Especially when they're not I mean, I like families with young kids that listen, but I also like it when the it's adults and then older parents that are listening, right? Hey guys, hope you're hanging in there. These are such tricky times. I know you're I'm not the only listener that turns to your show for a distraction or a soundtrack to washing dishes or background noise while trying to run or just something that feels normal during these abnormal times. A couple years ago, my now husband and I took a road trip with my parents to stay with my now in-laws. As we pulled out of the driveway, we put on Stuff You Should Know and spent the entire journey sharing your catalog with them, and they were immediately hooked. My parents continue to love your podcast, but every time my dad refers to it, he mixes up the name. I love this stuff.

So far, he's called you guys You should know. Sure. Stuff you ought to know. Yeah.

Things you need to know. [snorts] and stuff guys. Stuff guys is that's a good nickname.

Uh lately he's just been referring to you as the guys podcast, which is close enough for me.

Eventually, we're just going to get to the Yeah. Uh thanks for all the amazing work and the thoughtful approach you have to podcasting. So grateful to have multiple episodes to listen to every week. That is from Marbbeth and she says, "PS, I should add that the episode on fractals is now infamously nap inducing in my family,

but I blame the long stretch of highway on that." Thank you. That was very kind of you.

Yeah, nice. Really pulled it out at the end there. Um, who is that? Marbeth. Yep.

Uh, well, if you want to be like Marbbeth and get in touch with us, um, we would appreciate that right now. You can send it to us via email. That's the best way to reach us at stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com.

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Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Selects: How Miniature Golf Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"?

Jerry (Guest), Yumi (Guest), Marbbeth (Guest), Josh Clark (Host), Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant (Host).

What is "Selects: How Miniature Golf Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW" about?

The main topic explores the intricacies and nostalgic elements of miniature golf, including its appeal and the fond childhood memories associated with it, while highlighting a personal touch with birthday wishes to the host's wife. Furthermore, the discussion reflects on the evolution of their recording setup during the pandemic, adding an element of humor and camaraderie to the conversation.

What is mentioned in this Stuff You Should Know episode?

58 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Rock City, Don Clayton, Kiss, Tom Thumb Golf, Ruby Falls, Palatine, Illinois. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Selects: How Miniature Golf Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"?

The episode runs 48 min; the transcript is about 9,224 words in 196 timestamped sections.

More from Stuff You Should Know

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.