Transcript

Selects: PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

From Stuff You Should Know · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 59 min · 10,626 words · 229 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Selects: PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW", an episode of Stuff You Should Know published December 22, 2025 (59 min, about 10,626 words). It mentions 49 people, works and ideas, including P. T. Barnum, Jumbo, Autobiography, iHeartMedia, Charity.

What this episode is about

The discussion covers the complexities of P.T. Barnum's life and legacy, highlighting his role in popular entertainment through the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, while offering critiques of modern portrayals like the film "The Greatest Showman," which tend to romanticize his character. The hosts reflect on the impact of these portrayals and the misconceptions surrounding Barnum's actual history.

Key takeaways

  • P.T. Barnum: Not just the first showman but the quintessential hustler, patenting entertainment from exploitation.
  • Grain of salt? More like a salt lick for Barnum's autobiography; truth is in short supply.
  • Every show needs a fool: Barnum capitalized on deception wrapped in amusement, to everyone's delight.
  • Hugh Jackman in a top hat: Predictable flair, but Barnum's legacy is a complex hustle beyond showbiz glitz.
  • Fun fact: 'Sucker born every minute' wasn't Barnum's quote, but don't let that stop the narrative circus.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: P. T. Barnum, Hugh Jackman, Autobiography, Barnum and Bailey Circus
  2. – 10:00: Bethl, Connecticut, Phineas Taylor Barnum
  3. – 15:00: Autobiography, Charity, Herald of Freedom
  4. – 20:00: Jane McGrath, Joyce Heth, P. T. Barnum
  5. – 25:00: P. T. Barnum
  6. – 30:00: Autobiography, Ben Avery, Charity, Mississippi River
  7. – 35:00: Autobiography, Barnum's American Museum, Humbug
  8. – 40:00: Fiji Mermaid, Charles Stratton, General Tom Thumb, Levi Lyman
  9. – 45:00: Bridgeport, Bridgeport, Connecticut, East Bridgeport, Jerome Clock Company
  10. – 50:00: Charity, P. T. Barnum, Autobiography, Connecticut General Assembly
  11. – 55:00: Big Apple Circus, P. T. Barnum, Bridgeport, East Bridgeport
  12. – 59:00: P. T. Barnum, Apple Podcast, Jane McGrath

Notable quotes from "Selects: PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"

  • PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard. And I picked this one you guys for two reasons. One, because I believe in this episode I predicted that Hugh Jackman would play the man in a movie.
    about P. T. Barnum · at
  • Well, yeah. And one thing is for sure and is that his autobiography is I think if you order it, it comes with a salt lick so you can just lick on that salt while you're reading it.
    about Autobiography · at
  • Yeah. Yeah. so in this time period he met who would become his wife a woman named Charity Howlet who he described in his autobiography as a fair rosy cheek buxom girl with beautiful white teeth. Did I mention she had big boobs right?
    about Charity · at
  • Maybe like 80 81 years old at most, right? And this was so Jane McGrath kind of walks past like what a controversy this was. Like this guy had been like very much touting that…
    about Jane McGrath · at
  • Yeah. So we mentioned earlier about the humbug this kind of huxsterism in his biography there or autobiography which was rewritten by himself by the way after people read the first version and said what a jerk.
    about Humbug · at
  • Really big successes in a row, with his museum here. The first one was called the Fiji Mermaid, FE EJ Ee, and this was in 1842. and this was a big deal. He got a man named Levi…
    about Fiji Mermaid · at
  • The second big victory was when he met up with a four-year-old named Charles Stratton.
    about Charles Stratton · at
  • And that's what he does. in the 1850s, he bought up a lot of land near Bridgeport, Connecticut because he wanted to make East Bridgeport the Happening Place. he invested in a…
    about Bridgeport · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • P. T. Barnum — Person · 14 mentions · first at
  • Charity — Person · 4 mentions · first at
  • Jenny Lind — Person · 4 mentions
  • Hugh Jackman — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Heard. And I picked this one you guys for two reasons. One, because I believe in this episode I predicted that Hugh Jackman would play the man in a movie one day. one of my two predictions along with Jared from Subway being a creep.
  • Jane McGrath — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Charles Stratton — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Tom Thumb — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    And he stopped growing when he was 2 feet tall and he changed his name, rebranded him as General Tom Thumb, and that name probably rings a bell. They became very famous…
  • Charity Howlet — Person · 2 mentions
  • Deb Deb — Person · 2 mentions
  • William Cameron Coup — Person · 2 mentions
  • Phineas Taylor Barnum — Person · 1 mention · first at
    So let's go back to 1810 back to Bethl, Connecticut where this man was born. Mr. Phineas Taylor Barnum. he had sort of a mixed family life. He I mean he was they point out in this article he was firmly American. His great greatgrandfather.
  • Joyce Heth — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Guy had a huge life, man. Yeah. Well, but well but let's get to Joyce Heth, right? Because she is a very controversial part of PT Barnum's life. She was the first his first…
  • Ben Avery — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Ones because this practical joke was he convinced a crowd that Barnum was the Reverend Ephraim Avery, who had been acquitted of murder, but everyone thought that this guy had…
  • Steve Perry — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Finally, here's the thing. He wanted stability. Like being out on the road was tough. Ask Steve Perry, right?
  • Levi Lyman — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Was called the Fiji Mermaid, FE EJ Ee, and this was in 1842. and this was a big deal. He got a man named Levi Lyman or Levy Lyman. He was an old colleague of his, and he said…
  • John Fish — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Mhm. And then he's visiting his friend in England, John Fish. And this is when his wife Charity passes away.
  • Nancy Fish — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Subsided quickly because he secretly married Fish's daughter. at 63 years old, he married 22-year-old Nancy Fish.
  • James W. "Bill" Bailey — Person · 1 mention · first at
    And then finally, ironically here at the very end of this podcast in 1880, he partnered with one James A.
  • Bev Turner — Person · 1 mention
  • Chang and Eng Bunker — Person · 1 mention
  • Clive Owen — Person · 1 mention
  • Hugh Laurie — Person · 1 mention
  • Jared Fogle — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

  • Herald of Freedom — Book · 1 mention · first at
    That's right. And his was called the Herald of Freedom, which is terrible.
  • The Art of Money Getting — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Also, Chuck, we have to say that the title of the lecture tour, the art of money getting.

Companies & orgs

  • iHeartMedia — Company · 5 mentions
  • Barnum & Bailey — Company · 4 mentions
  • Big Apple Circus — Company · 2 mentions · first at
    And now we will only go to the Big Apple Circus as you know.
  • Wrangling Brothers Barnum and Bailey Circus — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Hi everybody, Chuck here with the greatest show on earth. Wrangling Brothers Barnum and Bailey Circus. You say no stuff you should know the podcast. That's right. It's Saturday and that means it's time for another.
  • Barnum and Bailey Circus — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Hi everybody, Chuck here with the greatest show on earth. Wrangling Brothers Barnum and Bailey Circus. You say no stuff you should know the podcast. That's right. It's Saturday…
  • Barnum's American Museum — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Right but so one thing that you can say about this museum which he renamed Barnum's American Museum it was a big success and one of the reasons it was a big success was because he was he tirelessly worked at finding new and interesting.
  • Jerome Clock Company — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Wanted to make East Bridgeport the Happening Place. he invested in a in the Jerome Clock Company, wanted to relocate it to East Bridgeport. It was not a smart thing to do. The company went bankrupt.
  • Connecticut General Assembly — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Politics legitimately. And in April of 1865, he actually won an election to the Connecticut General Assembly where he worked really hard to ratify the 13th Amendment and…
  • Apple Podcast — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
  • British Lyceum of Natural History — Company · 1 mention
  • P. T. Barnum's Grand Traveling Museum, Menagerie, Caravan, and Circus — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

Concepts & topics

Places & events

  • Bridgeport — Place · 2 mentions · first at
  • East Bridgeport — Place · 2 mentions · first at
    1850s, he bought up a lot of land near Bridgeport, Connecticut because he wanted to make East Bridgeport the Happening Place. he invested in a in the Jerome Clock Company…
  • Bethl, Connecticut — Place · 1 mention · first at
    So let's go back to 1810 back to Bethl, Connecticut where this man was born. Mr. Phineas Taylor Barnum. he had sort of a mixed family life. He I mean he was they point out in this article he was firmly American. His.
  • Mississippi River — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Did a little steamboat circus for a little while along the Mississippi River.
  • Bridgeport, Connecticut — Place · 1 mention · first at
    And that's what he does. in the 1850s, he bought up a lot of land near Bridgeport, Connecticut because he wanted to make East Bridgeport the Happening Place. he invested in a…

Full transcript with timestamps

Hi everybody, Chuck here with the greatest show on earth. Wrangling Brothers Barnum and Bailey Circus. You say no stuff you should know the podcast. That's right. It's Saturday and that means it's time for another selects. And this one is from May 2018. PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard. And I picked this one you guys for two reasons. One, because I believe in this episode I predicted that Hugh Jackman would play the man in a movie one day. one of my two predictions along with Jared from Subway being a creep.

And the other reason I picked it out is because I finally saw the movie The Greatest Show on Earth recently with my daughter and I didn't like it so much. I didn't think it was that good. Uh so I'm sorry to anyone who had a part in that movie. Um my daughter loved it, my wife loved it. I just thought it was okay. But this episode is great. So I hope you enjoy PT Barnum Colon. More complicated than you've heard. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry. Hello. Hello.

Hello. Hello. Jerry's got a top hat on. I I know. I don't know why. I don't know.

She's trying to be all Mr. Monopoly. Or PT Barnum. Oh, yeah. I forgot he wore a a top hat allegedly.

Oh, no, he did. I saw a picture of it. Yeah, Hugh Grant certainly did. Hugh Grant. Hugh Jackman.

Hugh Liy. I think it's Hugh Lori. That's who it was. Yeah. No, it's Clive Owens. You're thinking of

Yeah, Hugh Jackman. Man, he wears that top hat like a champ. He does. Um, I don't know how much you went on the internet for this one because this is a pretty comprehensive article by

But um, The Greatest Showman really set the internet on fire, man. And a lot of like it really brought out a lot of people saying like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa whoa whoa."

Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. This is the the very definition of the word fantasy. Yeah. It seemed like that movie was uh can be best described as a musical whitewashing.

Mhm. In every sense of that word. Yeah. So, let's destroy it. Yeah. I mean, after reading this, I didn't think like, man, PT Barnum, what a complete a-hole. No, he was just a lot more complicated than that and did a lot of stuff that you just shouldn't just pass over because you can't figure out lyrics to what why what rhymes with racism. Uh yeah, I mean he was he was definitely an enigma and um seems like he did some good, but also uh I mean he was a hustler man

for sure. So, this is what I I didn't fully understand until researching this, Chuck. He he was he's known as the greatest showman, right?

Mhm. But there were plenty of other showmen out there at the time. Yeah. Which makes sense because you have to have something to compare be compared to to be the greatest, right? But I I I guess I just assumed he was like the first or the originator. No, he was not the first showman. He was a great showman.

Yeah. What he really left his mark on was introducing America to pure unadulterated husterism.

Sure. And using it for marketing. Humbug. That's what he called it. And he had he had a lot of quotes. Some were some were definitely something he said like every crowd has a silver lining which means you can shake it out of them and get some money from a bunch of people, right?

Yeah. the one about a sucker born every minute, that's never been successfully attributed to him 100%.

Well, yeah. And one thing is for sure and uh is that his autobiography is I think if you order it, it comes with a salt lick so you can just lick on that salt while you're reading it.

Right. I don't know what that means, but that seems like something that they would do.

Yeah. I mean, he he uh I think when the man is writing about himself, it's like, you know what? You may just want to believe a third of this.

Oh, take it with a grain of salt, but so much so that you need an actual salt lick.

Oh, yeah. You didn't I got it now. I got it. So, so there is one quote that I think kind of describes this guy best or at least his philosophy. And it also kind of reveals like you can't call them harmless, but also the the intentions were not entirely evil. Right.

Right. He had a quote. It said that um people don't mind being deceived so long as they're being amused at the same time,

which is kind of true. It does. And it it it largely lets them off the hook as far as being a hu, right? But the thing that that uh The Greatest Showman really glossed over or just outright ignored was that a lot of the the um amusements that he was presenting to the public were extraordinarily degrading to people at the time. Um they were super racist. There were um just a lot of there was just a lot of exploitation. He made his money not just by hustling Americans but by exploiting other Americans, too. Right. Yeah. Um, and again, like this, a lot of this is contextual. It's not necessarily fair for later generations to judge previous generations, although it's really fun to do. Yeah. Um, but yes, you can say like this guy was exploitative even even in compared even compared to like his contemporaries, right? Perhaps.

So, he is just this very complex character who I think you and I can agree was not an evil person. He just did some horrible things here or there.

Should we go back in time? Yes, let's All right, let's go back to the beginning. Let's hop in the Wayback machine, which is appropriately steampunky right now.

Yeah, it takes many forms. I don't know if people realize that it has a clock without the glass and you can see the parts inside, but it doesn't actually function. It's strictly for decoration. So let's go back to 1810 uh back to Bethl, Connecticut where this man was born. Mr. Phineas Taylor Barnum. Um he had sort of a mixed family life. He I mean he was they point out in this article he was firmly American. His great greatgrandfather came over from England as an indentured servant in the 17th century.

Mhm. uh eventually became a land owner and but they didn't it's not like they had a ton of money. His dad Pho.

Yeah. All these are great names. Was uh he was not super successful. Um so it was kind of up to young PT to um to make his own way in life,

right? Yeah. His father was a farmer which introduced um Phineas to the idea that he really hated like manual mindless work.

Yeah. He didn't like doing that farm work. But that it's that's not to say he didn't like work. He just liked very specific kinds of work where his energies were appropriately channeled

like milking people out of money. Sure. Yeah. I mean that was that was kind of it. He liked um he was the definition of the word enterprising, right? He could figure out a way he could look at something literally look at something that you couldn't you could almost not give away. you certainly couldn't sell and turn it into pure profits like like he got into lotteryies for a little while once, right?

Yeah. I mean, he went he went to work he left the farm, went to work at a country store and realized quickly like just cuz you're in the country doesn't mean there aren't like swindlers and cheaters out here.

Yeah. So, he kind of learned some of the tricks of the trade there. His old man died when he was 15. Uh, and he was kind of his his mom had his mom had to get a job. But he was basically like, "All right, it's kind of up to me now to provide for my family." So, he moved, got that another job as a store clerk, and as you said, got into lotteryies.

Yeah. And he was early on pursuing a career at clerkship, which I guess is a thing. Yeah.

But but yeah, so there was this he saw easy money in lottery, so he set up one himself. Apparently, when he was working for these owners of the store, um they were away at one point and he got his eyes on some um tin kitchen wear that just would not sell.

Yeah. So, he took some other stuff that wouldn't sell at that store. These things weren't his, by the way. Right.

And he traded them for a bottle collection, which I guess was a thing that people wanted at the time.

Yeah. And he put those things up as prizes, right? And he started a lottery and these were the prizes. And there were cash prizes, but he ended up selling like a thousand tickets or something like that in this little town store um based on these prizes and some cash prizes saying like half of all tickets were going to be winners and you might win a bottle or you might win like a tin muffin pan, but you could also win this cash. And so these things that had just been sitting on these shelves forever were suddenly turned into something valuable thanks to his marketing expertise. And this is while he's still a teenager. Yeah, it's I we've covered this in something before that lotteryies were a thing back then that someone could just cook up, you know, like it's not like the lotteryies we have today, like these sanctioned uh sanctioned ways of stealing people's money,

right? But back then, you could just cook up a lottery in a small town and be like, you know what, I've got uh it was almost like a poni thing, like I can raise money right?

Give away some of that money in prizes and then keep the rest. Right. I think that was in our lotteryies episode. Oh, really?

Yeah. Okay. Well, in order to do that though, you have to be a a natural-b born salesperson, which is what he was.

You really do. And like lotteryies would play like a theme throughout his early career. Like that's how he ended up making his initial I don't know if fortunes the right word, but that's how he he staked himself in his family was through lotteryies and working in stores and then eventually owning stores like general stores, grocery stores, that kind of thing. But the lotteryies are where he made his money. and he actually figured out that you could make more money with less work than having to go to the trouble of setting up a lottery.

Like you said, anybody could just set up a lottery um by taking tickets from somebody else's lottery and selling them further out at an increased price. But then he figured out one more thing, Chuck. You didn't even have to go out and sell these things yourself. You could hire other people to sell them even further out. All you had to do was give them the tickets and collect the money that they brought you. So he ended up making money by basically expanding other people's lotteryies for a while.

That's right. And in the middle of this and he had moved to Brooklyn at this point. He's kind of

kind of hopping all over the place there in the Northeast. But uh and and to be fair, we're hopping kind of all over his early life right now.

Yeah, for sure. Chronologically. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so in this time period he met um who would become his wife a woman named Charity uh Howlet who he described in his autobiography as a fair rosy cheek buxom girl with beautiful white teeth. Did I mention she had big boobs

right? But those teeth man. Uh so they would get married and I think they had four daughters. Um, but during all this time he he did he had a little Josh Clark in him because

How do you mean? Well, he was writing letters to local papers that weren't getting published. So, he said, "You know what? I'm going to start my own paper."

Yeah. Very He Clarked himself a paper. I'll see you all in hell, media. Yeah. And much like yourself, you started your own paper, which was kind of cool.

Sure. I mean, like, if people won't print your crank ideas, just go start your own paper.

It's like if you want to get your manifesto out there and either either Yeah. Either become uni bomber-esque, which we don't recommend, or start your own paper.

That's right. And his was called the Herald of Freedom, which is terrible. And this is where it gets a little weird because he he he kind of went after people. um was eventually hit with a liel suit and spent 60 days in jail, but that sold a lot of papers and he was also hailed as a hero because apparently he was legitimately exposing corruption.

Right. So to me, Chuck, that one really stood out. Um because it shows just how huge this guy's life story is.

Yeah. that that even if you make a movie out of it, all the best you can hope for is to pick like five or six or 10 different things and try to find a thread throughout them, right? Whether that's an accurate portrayal or not, it can't possibly be because this guy's life was just so enormous and he did so many things and he was such an outsized character that a lot of times you either vilify him or glorify him. And it was much more a combination of both of those things. And I think that example really says it all. Like he had his his notions and he started his own paper and ended up going to jail and subscription boosted so ended up making money from it. But at the same time he was legitimately trying to call out corruption in this town that he cared about. So his character was much more complex than than you get the just from just about any source unless you read biographies about him.

Yeah, agreed. Um, so finally he says or I'm sorry, Connecticut said, "No more lotteryies in Connecticut." So he's like, "All right, what am I doing here even if I can't do this little scam?"

Yeah. He's like, "I I love this town, but not that much." So in 1834, he left the paper, shut that down, moved his family to New York City, and uh should we take a break? Perfect timing. All right, we're in New York City, and we'll be back right after this.

If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen up to stuff you should know.

Stuff you should know. Stuff you should know. I got a falafel. Is it good? It's pretty good.

Was Is it from the Hello guys? Uh-huh. Of course. Oh man. Who else you going to get a falafel from?

That's good stuff. Yeah. Uh so man, this guy really just reading through this thing, he did so many jobs,

right? He was a factotem. Dozens and dozens of jobs through his lifetime. Yeah. And I'm glad he didn't just stick to clerking, right? Or even lottery. He had this thing like something about show business attracted this guy.

Oh, yeah. I don't know what it was. Maybe nobody but him knows what it was. Maybe he doesn't even know what it was. But he was attracted to the idea of like wowing and amusing and amazing crowds. And he he did that pretty early on. I think he was 25 when he got into uh exhibiting a human being who he purchased and owned for a while, which by the way does not show up in The Greatest Showman.

Right. And this is after in New York. He started a boarding house for a while. Oh yeah.

And co-owned a grocery store for a while, right? And so like his life is full of him just trying to do these kind of regular things and then being like, "Nope, got to go buy a lady and put her on display."

Right. And this was after Chuck, by the way. He had come down with smallox for a while.

Oh, did we miss the smallox? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like this guy had a huge life,

man. Yeah. Well, but well but let's get to Joyce Heth, right? Because she is a very controversial part of um PT Barnum's life. She was the first uh his first foray into show business. And there's no other way to put it. Like he purchased her. She was a slave, an elderly slave um who he purchased from another promoter who had been touting her as General George Washington's nursemaid.

Yes. From when George Washington was a child. This is 1835, right? You do the math.

She was supposedly 161 years old. Yeah. So, he uh negotiates a price. He he went and saw her and she was blind. She had no teeth. She was partially paralyzed.

Uh but she could talk and tell her story. Yeah. She told stories about young George as a boy.

Oh, yeah. And and to be fair, she she was already being exploited. It's not like he which is not great, but it's not like Barnum introduced this into her life.

No, he just purchased her and took it over. Yes. Took took over the exploitation for money

for for $1,000. And he toured with her uh until she died um not that long later, just like a year later, not even uh in 1836. He made a lot of dough. Um, and it was it was sort of a watershed moment for him where I think he was like, "Wait a minute. I've realized that I can get people um in a room by cooking up these stories and and getting things in the newspaper and printing these posters."

Mhm. Uh, and even if like if if business was down, he would do these crazy things. Like one of them when business was down appearing with Heth at one point he accused her of being a robot what they called at the time an automaton

in an anonymous letter to the editor in a newspaper. Yeah. A robot made of whale bone rubber and springs. So everyone was like whoa whoa whoa. Not only is she George Washington's nursemaid, but she's really a robot.

Right. And what that did was it got the people who had been avoiding going to see her because even at the time people were like this is pure exploitation. This woman is being exhibited like a a giraffe would be or something like that. She's an old lady. He's working her 10 to 12 hours a day. Some people think that he worked her to death literally. Um and so there was part of the press that was saying and reporting on this with with great distaste. So there's a segment of American society who would not be caught dead seeing George Washington's 160y old nurse maid. Yeah.

But they would conceivably go see an autonomaton if that's really what was going on. So he managed to to dupe the the very people who were critical of this exploitation that he was undertaking. He he got everybody in that one.

Well, yeah. And it it gets even worse. Um, finally when she passed away, he actually sold tickets to a public autopsy.

Mhm. In a saloon. So people could come look at this poor woman's insides. And this is where it was finally revealed. Doctor said she's maybe like 80 81 years old at most,

right? And this was so so Jane um McGrath kind of walks past like what a controversy this was. Like this guy had been like very much touting that she was the nursemaid. Like he he supposedly had the bill of sale to George Washington's father for her. So like he was saying like this is legitimately 106 year old woman. So in this autopsy that he charged for when when it was exposed that she was actually half that age.

Um it was there was a bit of disgrace there and he had to learn to roll with the punches. And it was about this time that that he basically said to himself, you can you can take this as a lesson and go on the straight and narrow, maybe get back into clerking.

Yeah. Or you can re double maybe triple and quadruple down on this and and see where that goes. And he chose the latter of the two for sure.

That's right. He sure did. Uh the next thing that he did, the next person that he kind of took under his wing was uh his greasy greasy wing was someone called uh Signor or Senor Senor. Is it Senor?

Yeah. Why is it spelled that way? Uh that is the Italian spelling of Senor. Oh well, let me turn it on then.

Sor Antonio. Antonio. Nice. Antonio. Antonio. I added an extra bit in there. Senor Antonio is another way to say it.

Well, sure. If you're a dullard. I'm a bit of a dullard, Chuck. I think you know that after 10 years.

So, this guy Oh, we're really milking that 10 year thing, huh? I've got my SYSK 10Year Army shirt on.

I see that. It's very nice. Thank you. I've been working on my buxomness. You were quite buom. So, Senor Antonio uh was a balancer. He's He's one of these guys like a plate spinner, walked on stilts, juggles. Um he could throw things in the air and catch them very fast.

Yeah. He's like a hippie. Yeah, exactly. He would be on tour with He'd had those little sticks. What are those called?

Devil sticks. Devil sticks or a hacky sack. Any of those things. Yeah. He'd pull a hacky sack out of his ear at any moment.

So this guy, he said, "All right, you need to be my newest client. I will make you famous. uh change your your stage name from Senor Antonio to Senor Vivala.

Nice. Because that's a little more I don't know exciting. I guess I like Senior Anton. Yeah,

I do too. It's a lateral move. Uh here's the thing though is there were a lot of dudes out there spinning plates. So he it wasn't like he was so unique, but uh Barnum thought, you know what, I think you're better than the rest. So here's what I'll do. And again, this is just another example of how how good he was at promotion. He said, "I'll do a free performance for a theater." Uh, and I'll even be your assistant on stage. And people came. And so the theater said, "All right, I guess if people come for free, they'll pay."

I think I think what he was saying was he Yeah, I think that's exactly I think you're right.

He just wowed them enough. I think that's that's the impression I have. Yeah. But even still, despite Vavala being genuinely good, he was, I think, head and shoulders above most of his contemporaries.

Plate spinners. Yeah. I think people saw in the press, oh, there's a really good plate spinner. We saw a plate spinner at, you know, the at the office last week, so I'm not going to go anywhere to see another plate spinner. I'm certainly not going to pay.

Yeah. So Barnum had a a pretty good idea, but I actually came out of a um a uncomfortable situation that fell into his lap with uh Roberts, another plate spinner.

Yeah. So this is a rival plate spinner who apparently would go to perform West Coast.

Yeah. He was he was a a and he would go to uh Vivival's performances and heckle them, I guess.

Mhm. You call that plate spinning? Boo. Terrible plate spinning stuff like that. And so, uh, PT Barnum cooked up a thing where he was like, "All right, I'll offer 1,000 American dollars to anyone who can perform Vivala's act in public." Roberts accepted, but here's what really happened is he got together with Roberts and they all three hatched a plan

to do these kind of staged competitions, right? So, they they promoted in the plate spinning competitions,

East Coast, West Coast plate spinning rivalries going on right now. everybody's going to come see this and everybody did and in that first performance Roberts as was staged conceded he could not replicate Vavala's act it was too good but I would love to see Vavala replicate my act and I challenge you Senor Vavala to replicate my act tomorrow night at this same theater and they kept going back and forth like that um with this staged rivalry that they they they made some cash off of thanks to Barnum's ingenuity.

They did. Finally, in 1836, the circus comes into the picture. Mhm. Uh he joined a traveling circus. Barnum did as a ticket seller, which I take it to mean he doesn't sit in a booth and sell tickets, but he goes around town selling tickets.

Yeah. Like chambers of commerce or something like that. Yeah. And of course, he got a little uh kamish off this thing. So, he was making some dough.

Vala joined that same circus as a a performer. Of course, they were attached at the the hip at that point.

No, that was Chang and Ang bunker you're thinking of. That's a dad joke. It totally was.

Um, and this one I thought was a little bit weird. Apparently the circus proprietor, a guy named Turner, was uh into practical jokes and not very good ones because this practical joke was he convinced a crowd that Barnum was the Reverend Ephraim Avery,

who had been acquitted of murder, but everyone thought that this guy had committed murder. And back then, no one knew what anyone looked like. So he said, "This guy is Ephraim Avery." And he almost got lynched apparently.

Yeah. Like Ephraim Avery's name was not very wellliked in the area. He was at the very least he through having an adulterous affair with a young woman had induced her to kill herself or at worst had murdered her to prevent her from having his illegitimate child. But he'd been acquitted, right? And he was a reverend, did we mention? Um so yeah, the the crowd like according to Barnum almost killed him.

That's a real funny joke. I know. But then later on, Jane says that um that Barnum got got even with him with his own practical joke. I could find nothing anywhere, including in in Barnum's autobiography that that mentions that.

I think he covered his toilet in saran wrap. Gross. That is so nasty. Uh no, no, he gave him an upper decker.

Gross. That's even worse. So apparently these guys got into business together and it became a thing where people would go see the circus where the two ring masters would would kind of go at each other with these practical jokes,

right? That became a thing. So So there's a transition going on, another transition now. He is he started out store clerking, lotterying, went got into show business where is like basically a Colonel Tom performers.

Yeah. And then now he's transitioning into the circus, but by now he's been like a married to the road about as much as he's been married to Charity as as well. And from all accounts, um like he was very much in love with her and they were uh like he was faithful and they they were they were a real couple, but he was on the road a lot. There's just no ifands or buts about it. He was out there on the road quite a bit. So transitioning to a circus was basically the same thing. It was just a little bigger of an outfit. So, it was like a step up. But you got to also keep in mind here that he's spending a lot of time on the road at a time when travel was really long and really tough.

That's right. And so he eventually decides working for someone else's circus is for the birds.

I'm going to start my own. Go buy some horses and wagons. I'm going to get a clown. You got to have a clown.

Uh I think he still had Vivala at the time. Yeah. and started Barnum's Grand Scientific and Musical Theater. Uh, toured all over the place for a little while

and then they disbanded, right? Nothing ever seemed to work out for very long. No, I think that um he got fed up, it says, with some of the rivalries with other showmen um that they, you know, you would build your whole circus around like an act and all of a sudden the act would be like, I'm I'm sick of this. I'm sick of being on the road. I'll see you later. And all of a sudden your circus would fall apart. I think they were kind of tenuous outfits, right?

But he he the thing about Barnum is like something about this called to him. Like he would when his circus collapsed and he was out in the middle of the country on the road and and he had to go back home, the first thing he would do was start figuring out his next circus or his next act or whatever it was. He would go back out again. He he was indehaticable in Indatigable in that sense.

Uh yeah. So I mean we'll quickly speed through the next couple of years. He he did a little steamboat circus for a little while along the Mississippi River.

Um that didn't come along. He tried to do a respectable business again. Uh went into business with a guy who manufactured grease,

right, paste and cologne. That did all right for a little while, but then that failed. Uh, and then this whole time he still feels that pull to the tent,

right? He sold illustrated Bibles for a little while. Yeah. Finally, here's the thing. He wanted stability. Like being out on the road was tough. Ask Steve Perry, right? But he wanted this this to be tied to show business in some way. Yeah. Finally, one day in I think the 1841 he um he had another big break or another big vision. There was a there was a place in New York, a museum and what you would call today a museum that was up for sale in uh I'm not sure where it was, but it was in New York, right?

Yes. And it was called Scutter's American Museum. and Barnum heard that um Scutter wanted to get out and was putting the whole collection up for 15 grand, which is a substantial amount of money and definitely more money than than Barnum had. But he said, "That's it right there. I can have a permanent place where people come to me and I can be home with my wife and daughters, but I can still have this daily interaction with show business. I got to buy that thing." Well, and it will also accomplish this is um I can still have my freak show performers, but because it's a museum, somehow it has a little bit more respectability because apparently at the time theaters weren't like they are today. It wasn't like we're going to the theater.

Theaters could be a little bit like a a second tier entertainment, right? It was like hoy paloy toddry crowds went to the theater that was associated with like burlesque or something like that or even like um human oddities exhibition stuff like that that was theater stuff a museum like scutters like respectable people could go there. So what Barnum did was he he bought a museum and then dragged it down into the mud.

Right. And this this whole the way he financed the museum I didn't fully understand to be honest.

Do you want me to explain it? uh if you want or we could just say he ended up with the museum in 1841 through a lot of work and

I think that's that's fair enough because it is a little bit like you know Robin Peter did pay Paul

right it wasn't just a straightup purchase let's just say that right but so one thing that you can say about this museum which he renamed Barnum's American Museum it was a big success and one of the reasons it was a big success was because he was he tirelessly worked at finding new and interesting ways to market the thing, right?

Yeah. Um and by I'm not sure exactly when, but by a very short time after he opened it, I think that same year in 1841, um he he was he charged 25 cents a person for admission.

He had something like 4,000 visitors a day. Yeah. And he took this thing like I I say that he dragged the word museum down in the mud. He definitely added and expanded to the definition of museum. And then he also had this lecture hall where he had like performances that you would see like in a circus or something like that. And he turned this place into an emporium just something huge in an enormous spectacle. And something like 850,000 pieces were on display in his museum. So you definitely got your quarters worth for sure.

Yeah. And those are just the pieces. He also I mean as far as the circus element, he had everything covered. He had dancers, musicians, uh plate spinners ventriloquist.

Well, you got to have the plate spinners. He had little people. He had big people. He had ladies with beards and robots and puppets and animals. He had giraffes and grizzly bears. like he really had everything humming on all cylinders at this point.

Yeah, he really did. Um and again there was still there's that whole thread of like you know there people being exploited. There were uh people who were complicit in that. There were people who were um anyone who came to the museum was gawking at, you know, the weirdness of these other people or whatever, which again today is very odd to us, but at the time, um was still odd. Like that's the thing that I think gets lost on people. like there were sideesh shows and things like that, but Barnum took it to a an extraordinary degree and really ran with it and became extremely rich as a result, actually.

Should we take a break? I am ready to. All right, the museum's humming along. We're going to take a break. We'll be back right after this.

If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen to Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know.

Stuff you should know. Stuff you should know. Okay, we're back. Yeah. So we mentioned earlier about the humbug um this kind of huxsterism

in his biography there or autobiography which was rewritten by himself by the way after people read the first version and said what a jerk.

Yeah. Yeah. He was like just openly boastful and braggard about how much he exploited people and how much he duped the American public.

He toned it down a little bit in this in the revision. Uh but he he did talk a little bit about being slightly embarrassed about kind of how shameless he was. But then again in the next line he would say, "But you know what? This is how everyone is in my business. I'm just better at it than them basically." Yeah. He said um he said, "Oh, there's a great quote. I can't find it anywhere though where basically if he if he Oh, here it is. um if his advertising was quote more audacious than his competitors, it was not because I had less scruple than they, but more energy, far more ingenuity, and a better foundation for such promises.

He thought a lot of himself. He definitely did. But he also worked pretty hard at it for sure. And I think if you if you compared apples to apples at the time, Barnum's jam was way better than anybody else's jam.

Yeah, for sure. So, uh, he had three really big successes in a row, uh, with his with his museum here. The first one was called the Fiji Mermaid, FE EJ Ee, and this was in 1842. Um, and this was a big a big deal. He got a man named Levi Lyman or Levy Lyman. He was an old uh colleague of his, and he said, "Here's what I'll do. You're going to you are now Dr. Jay Griffin. You were a naturalist for the uh British uh Lysium of Natural History, which was not a real place.

And you were the uh you were in ownership of what we'll call the Fiji mermaid, which was a uh what did we call it in the taxiderermy? Rogue Taxiderermy.

Yeah, it was rogue taxiderermy. It totally was. It was like a jackaloupe except what was it? It was a head of a baboon.

Mhm. torso of an orangutang and a fish tail just for good measure. Yeah. And as far back as they can tell, it was probably made by a Japanese sailor in the 1820s and had passed through a few hands before Barnum finally leased it and put it on display.

I wonder where that thing is now. I looked I I don't know. There are other Fiji mermaids out there. There was It was like kind of a thread of rogue taxiderermy in the mid 19th century and I think Harvard has one on display. But I looked to find out where PT Barnum's is and um I I can't find it.

It's probably like on Richard Branson's headboard or something. It's it may have actually burned up in one of the many fires that plagued PT Barnum's life sadly.

Yeah. Things are going to get fiery uh here in this last bit, too. Yeah. Well, any Well, let's get back to the Fiji mermaid, though.

Okay. Okay. So, Dr. Jay Griffin is touring touring with this supposedly touring with this mermaid, right?

Sure. and Barnum, but the guy's actually not out there touring. Barnum basically creates out a whole cloth a tour of this mermaid, writes letters about how great this thing is uh in different people's names and then mails them to friends that live around the country and asks them to mail those letters in to to newspapers in New York talking about how this thing has to be seen to be believed.

Yeah. So people came far and wide to see this uh piece of taxiderermy. Yeah. And by the way, this whole Jay Griffin thing, like this guy was posing as him. He was giving public lectures.

Oh yeah. Ma made up as a naturalist, a British naturalist. And he was an American promoter. He had nothing to do. He was just making all this stuff up. But he would give like public lectures on it.

I love it. Like the audacity. It's amazing. Uh so the second big victory was uh when he met up with a four-year-old named Charles Stratton.

Uh he was a little person, his cousin actually, and he stopped growing when he was 2 feet tall and he changed his name, rebranded him as General Tom Thumb, and that name probably rings a bell. They became very famous together. He said he was 11 years old and they were a a media and ticket selling sensation.

Yeah. they would be like invited in to meet like royalty whatever country they toured. Um he was a huge hit at the museum. It was like a a big deal for um both Barnum and and Charles Stratton.

That's right. They a sensation. That's the best way to put it. And the final big victory of of the trifecta when he was in Europe with um with Stratton, he heard of Jenny Lynn. She was a Swedish opera singer. And this was the kind of thing where he was like, "You know what? She doesn't have a beard. She's all she is is a talented singer, but she's amazing. And this would really legitimize me if I did like a straightup act for a change,

right? So, even though she's big over here, they don't know about her in America, and she could blow up there. So, I'm going to offer her $1,000 performance, which was a ton of money and a big risk. But uh he made about a half a million dollars with her or more who he branded the Swedish night and gale

by trotting her around the United States and uh she was like beyond a sensation in the United States.

Yeah, that was another thing too. I mean, like, she was pretty big in Europe, but I don't think she was well known, if known at all, in America. But by the time she showed up for the the tour starting in 1850, he had managed to, I like you said, just turn her into a a national sensation. Like people had like beetle mania for this lady.

Yeah. Um the this article says that she was not a uh a very nice person. I didn't see that anywhere else.

And I actually saw that. So after the contract between her and Barnum was up in 1851, she continued to tour America with like an actual orchestra I believe. Um and she made $300,000 in 1850s money um from this whole American tour and donated every single penny of it to Sweden's public school system which was really burgeoning at the time. Yeah. So, I don't know what Jane was talking about, but I think she just kind of didn't find America very cultured is is what I get. But apparently Jane didn't like that. And

well, America probably wasn't very cultured in 1850, right? But I thought that was pretty neat, man. She took all of that money and donated it to the public school system in Sweden.

Man, that's crazy. But yeah, so so Barnum was not legitimized thanks to that. I think it actually didn't go all that well, but he did enrich himself thoroughly through Jenny Lynn for sure.

That's right. But he would go broke again because he's PT Barnum. Jeez. And that's what he does. Uh in the 1850s, he bought up a lot of land near Bridgeport, Connecticut because he wanted to make East Bridgeport the Happening Place. Uh he invested in a in the Jerome Clock Company, wanted to relocate it to East Bridgeport. It was not a smart thing to do. The company went bankrupt. and all of a sudden he was broke again. And this is fire number one. He moves out of his mansion um because he's broke. And then when after he had moved out, the mansion burned down,

right? But if he had to move out, you would think that he had relinquished ownership. So why does it matter as far as his life goes?

Oh, unless he had a bunch of money stuffed into the insulation or something. I don't know.

Breaking Bad thing going on. It might have just been a footnote or something. Or he may maybe he did. No, I guess if he had moved out then

he didn't own it. It's I just thought that was a little weird. Yeah. So he um he was in debt like big time like broke bankrupt in debt um because of this terrible clock company thing which you should always take as a uh a reason to never put all of your eggs in one basket which I guess is what he did. But he managed to um emerge from debt after I think five years. Um and he ended up during this time he pawned his museum but he also put the name of the museum in his wife's name who was not bankrupt. And so they were able to make some income off of the lease of for the museum. And then when he managed to buy the museum back after five years, he just went like right back to it. Like like like he didn't miss a beat.

Yeah. I mean this this 10-year period from 1850 to 1860, he went broke. He he did the smart thing like he said with his wife. He started giving lectures about making money. He went on tour again with uh Tom Thumb. He got a dead whale. He bought a dead whale and said, "Surely people will pay money to see this." So, he was still doing all this crazy stuff. Um, he bought a hippopotamus. He bought two beluga whales. Like, it's just crazy the things that he was doing.

Also, Chuck, we have to say that the title of the lecture tour, the art of money getting.

It's not even the art of making money, the art of money getting. Yeah. So, um, so the, uh, the he's his star is starting to rise again. At the very least, his fortunes are reversing from from, you know, just doing any kind of work he can get his hands on. And then all along this way, like Barnum was a pretty he was what's known as a Jonian Democrat. Andrew Jackson was a populist president and um he was uh I think didn't we lay he was the one who was responsible for the Trail of Tears, right? I'm pretty sure that was Andrew Jackson.

It was remember our two-part on Trail of Tears. I do. Okay. So, he was he was um PT Barnum was of this man's party. He was a Jackson supporter. And then the civil war breaks out and all of a sudden um Barnum has this like total conversion. He was not like an outright bigoted racist who worked to keep African-Americans enslaved, worked as a Confederate sympathizer, anything like that. He was fairly unremarkable and pretty normal. Like for example, at his at his museum, um if you were black, you couldn't come in. It was a segregated museum. Yeah. But that was like a lot of businesses at the time. So he was a very normal pedestrian person as far as his politics go and and and socially as well. But something happened around the time of the Civil War and he converted and actually became an abolitionist. Huge Union supporter and um just basically became patriotic and dedicated this idea of preserving the

Union and abolishing slavery. Yeah. And he used that museum as a uh a sort of ground zero for his cause. Uh he had speeches, he had plays that sort of endorsed this. He had uh southern copperheads that were protesting outside. They threatened his life. And then he said at this point, you know what? I might as well just get into politics um legitimately. And in April of 1865, he actually won an election to the Connecticut General Assembly uh where he worked really hard to ratify the 13th Amendment and supported another cause to uh allow the rights of black people to vote in Connecticut.

Yeah. So like he was he was legitimately dedicated to the cause of abolition which is totally bizarre, right? And about this time too is when the revisions to his autobiography are starting to get much more contrite, much less boastful um and even more apologetic. Uh so he he like he something happened and he was converted to um the right side of history, I guess you could call it, you know.

Yeah. So here's where fire number two comes in. Um after a few months after this election his museum burned down uh along with the animals in the exhibit which is super sad.

Yes. Is the first of like two animal fires. Uh he opened a new museum a couple of months after that. Three years later that museum burned down.

Mhm. Didn't want to rebuild that one. Uh, and then finally in the 1870s, like it took a long, long time before he became the PT Barnum that most people know as the big circus guy,

right? The greatest show on earth guy. Yeah. He um hooked up with Barnum and Bailey after hooking up with a guy named William Cameron Coupe or Coup. I'm not sure which one it is. Um, but he had PT Barnum's Grand Traveling Museum, Managerie, Caravan, and Circus.

Yeah, a little wordy. That was 1871. And then, um, did you cover the 1872 fire?

No. There was another fire that killed all the circus animals at the winter at the winter, um, uh, camp, which is on the site of where Madison Square Garden is right now. There's a horrific fire in the winter camp in 1872. killed a bunch of other circus animals, which this is this is why this is one of the reasons why years later um Barnum and Bailey's Wrangling Brothers Circus went away was because of animals.

Yeah. And he I mean he was a by the time this uh fire happened at the what was it called? The Hippo Theatron,

I think. So he uh he was very successful with that surf uh circus. started with uh Coupe or Coup. Uh they made about 400 grand in the first year and it was the very first circus to kind of do the traditional thing that we all think of is travel by train,

acrobats, clowns, exotic animals, stuff like that. Yeah. Uh and that's when it officially was called the greatest show on earth.

So the hippotheatron, such a strange word, burns down. Mhm. And then he's visiting his friend in England, uh, John Fish. And this is when his wife Charity passes away.

Yeah. And as Jane put it, he was supposedly too griefstricken to return for her funeral. But the grief must have subsided quickly because he secretly married Fish's daughter. Uh, at 63 years old, he married 22-year-old Nancy Fish.

Yeah. About three and a half months later after his wife passed. No word about her teeth?

No. No. or her uh bra size. So um they got married secretly 14 weeks after Charity died and then in when they came to the US they had a public wedding nine months after that. So um yeah he married her and I guess he was with her until his death, right?

Well yeah in 1860 or I'm sorry 75 he took a break from the circus, got back into politics.

Mhm. and became the mayor of Bridgeport for a little while. Not East Bridgeport, though. He's talking trash about them.

East Bridgeport. And apparently he gets a little on his high horse now because even though he was a drinker, pretty heavy drinker for a while, he quit drinking and then campaigned against um like Sunday sales in saloons

and kind of got a little self-righteous it seems like. Yeah. He also sponsored the Commtock law in Connecticut uh which banned contraception which uh puts a lot of onus on to the ladies. Um and it was in place apparently until 1965. And there's a really important word in there, Chuck. Sponsored. Like that means you're the person who brought it to the uh general assembly. Not you didn't just vote yes on it. You're the one who said everybody everybody let's ban contraception for a hundred years.

Yeah. And and it was successful actually. So yeah, he was he was a weird dude with a lot of different weird um thoughts about things and that were sometimes very contradictory over time.

And then finally, ironically here at the very end of this podcast in 1880, he partnered with one James A. Bailey for PT Barnum's Great London combined. That's a terrible name for a circus.

Worst circus name ever. Doesn't even have the word circus in there. And uh this is when he got Jumbo the elephant, which uh it was Jumbo was a legendary attraction until 1885 when Jumbo was killed by a train

and probably caught fire, too. And did you know, we were just in Boston that Tus University, their mascot is Jumbo the elephant?

No, I didn't know that. Yeah, my buddy Robert explained that to me and um apparently Barnum was one of the early uh um what do you what do you call the people who give universities a lot of money?

Uh endowment endow donors grant person. Sure. He was all of that. What is that word? I know what you're talking about.

He was all that to tough and so Jumbo the elephant became their mascot. And I think cuz it does say in here he he displayed Jumbo's preserved hide and skeleton. I think it was or maybe is on display at Tus.

Oh wow. Um I'm not sure if it still is, but I think at one time it was. So wait a minute. This guy also gave a substantial amount of money to help found a university.

I don't know found but to the university. That's a benefactor. Is that the word?

Benefactor. Yeah, maybe to found found it. I'm not sure of the timeline there. Man, that's that's really crazy. He did a lot of stuff. So, go jumbos.

Yeah, the fighting jumbos or the passive aggressive jumbos or what? The stomping jumbos.

There you go. That's pretty good. Uh, so Barnum and Bailey weren't together for too long initially. They parted ways, but then again joined in 1887 ultimately finally for the Barnaman Bailey Circus.

Yep. They broke up and then they got back together and then it stayed that way until 2016, I think, and then the circus finally closed down. I went to that thing as a kid. I think we talked about that.

Sure, I did too. Um, and now we will only go to the Big Apple Circus as you know.

And I took a long break because Emily and I were tired of going and then uh now that we got a kid, my mom was like, you know, you got to start going again.

You have to. So, we went this year. How was it? Oh, it's okay. You know, I'm not the biggest circus guy I've realized.

Are you afraid of clowns? No, not these. Are you afraid of acrobats? I could take these clowns.

Um, no. And actually the acrobats at the Big Apple Circus are the uh the what's it called? It's the the famous ones. The family.

Oh, the flying Zambonis. Yeah. Or was it Zambonis? Not Zambonis. Uh, I don't remember. It's something like that.

But it's them. It's still still that family. Wow. That's really that's something.

And they, you know, they did a great job. But at the end of the day, I'm just kind of about a third of the way through, I'm looking at my watch, you know.

Oh, I gotcha. I've seen a couple circus sole. Those are the last circuses I saw.

Yeah, those are okay. But we we saw the Michael Jackson one in Las Vegas and man, alive.

Was it good? Yeah, there's a Michael Jackson circ. Yes, dude. And I have to tell you, like I'm not some diehard Michael Jackson fan, but you don't have to be this to appreciate this. It is amazing. like like it's worth going to Vegas to go see.

Who's not Michael Jackson? Turning around and going home. I don't know. There's probably a few. I'll bet we hear from some Michael Jackson anti Michael Jackson fans.

Uh finally 1890 PT Barnum has a stroke. Uh during a performance he has one weird strange wish at the end of his life is to have his obituary published before he dies.

Yeah. I don't know why I did that. maybe to I don't know either. I think I don't know, but that's a heck of a way to end this podcast.

It sounds maybe he wanted to feel the public outpouring or something. Uh it could be that or he wanted to proofread it or something. I don't know. But if he wanted if that was what he was after, why didn't they just um send it to him ahead of time? They actually published it.

Yeah, that's weird. Yeah. Well, we'll find out one day when we die and go to heaven and meet PT Barnum.

Agreed. So, uh, you got anything else? Nope. There's probably tons more that we missed. And if you know something about PT Barnum that we didn't know, let us know. We'll just add to this guy's story over time. Okay. Uh, in the meantime, if you want to read this great article by Jane McGrath, type in PT Barnum in the search bar at How Stuff Works. And since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail.

All right, I'm going to call this a Uni Bomber follow-up. Oh, good. I was into that one.

The Uni Bomber. Yeah. Yeah, that was a good episode. That was a good 10th anniversary episode.

Milk. Uh, hey guys, congratulations on 10 years. Milk milk. I look forward to many more. Listen to Uni Bomber and thought I would share something that covers a related if somewhat different aspect of the story. About 10 years ago when I was still a Wii law student taking a legal ethics course, one of the situations we discussed was Ted Kazinski and the ethical dilemma his lawyers faced. Uh criminal defendants have the absolute right to dictate certain aspects of their representation like whether or not to plead guilty. But there are other aspects of the representation that the lawyer controls. The most notable being trial strategy. While lawyers should always listen to the client's overall goals, sometimes it's necessary to override a client's wishes on how to achieve their goals because uh the client's desired strategy is either legally incorrect, unethical, or simply ill advised. Kazinsk's case presented an

interesting ethical problem for the attorneys because he refused to allow them to pursue what they perceived to be his best defense and his only hope of avoiding the death penalty, namely claiming he was not guilty by reason of mental disease uh known as the insanity defense. The conflict was that on one hand his attorneys had a duty to zealously represent him, but Kazinski objected so vehemly to the chosen defense that at one point he attempted to go prosay aka represent himself, which would have been an utter disaster.

Uh, as you noted, he plead guilty. So, we'll never know what they would have decided to do had he conned to trial. But his case is one which most lawyers thought about or discussed at some point in their careers. Uh, that is good. Forom Law, go Rams. And that is from Deb.

Thanks, Deb. Appreciate that. Yeah, I remember we were kind of saying like his whole thing was he didn't he plead guilty because he didn't want to plead insane because his ramblings would have been the ramblings of a convicted insane madman.

Yeah, very interesting. Uh, again, thanks Deb. We always love hearing from lawyers out there. That whole joke about lawyers at the bottom of the sea being a good start, we have always found it tasteless.

Sure. So get in touch with us. You can send us and Jerry an email to Stuff Podcast at iheartradio.com.

Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Selects: PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"?

Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant (Host), Josh Clark (Host), Jerry (producer, first name not stated) (Guest), Deb (listener; full name not provided) (Guest).

What is "Selects: PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW" about?

The discussion covers the complexities of P.T. Barnum's life and legacy, highlighting his role in popular entertainment through the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, while offering critiques of modern portrayals like the film "The Greatest Showman," which tend to romanticize his character. The hosts reflect on the impact of these portrayals and the misconceptions surrounding Barnum's…

What is mentioned in this Stuff You Should Know episode?

49 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including P. T. Barnum, Jumbo, Autobiography, iHeartMedia, Charity, Barnum & Bailey. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Selects: PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW"?

The episode runs 59 min; the transcript is about 10,626 words in 229 timestamped sections.

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About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.