Transcript
SYSK's 12 Days of Christmas… Toys: Cabbage Patch Kids: Must-Have Toy of the Century
From Stuff You Should Know · Episode page · Watch on YouTube
· 52 min · 9,613 words · 133 timestamped sections
This is the full, timestamped transcript of "SYSK's 12 Days of Christmas… Toys: Cabbage Patch Kids: Must-Have Toy of the Century", an episode of Stuff You Should Know published December 14, 2025 (52 min, about 9,613 words). It mentions 144 people, works and ideas, including Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Charles Wayne Bryant, Charles W. Chuck Bryant.
What this episode is about
The discussion centers on the iconic Cabbage Patch Kids, recognized as a quintessential Christmas toy and a cultural phenomenon. The hosts share personal anecdotes, including the joys and memories tied to owning these dolls, while reflecting on their enduring popularity and significance in holiday traditions.
Key takeaways
- Cabbage Patch Kids: 'So ugly they're cute' or just ugly? 1983's answer still divides opinions.
- Xavier Roberts' handmade dolls once fetched $2K; today, even originals struggle for $150 on eBay.
- Forget designer babies, Reagan's Cabbage Patch conspiracy was prepping us for nuclear mutant babies.
- 1983 Christmas craze: Parents betrayed dignity, opting for toddlers elbowing in aisles over 'fugly' dolls.
- If Cold War tension doesn’t get you, the myth of dolls aiding Reagan’s USSR plan might entertain!
Who speaks in this episode?
- Charles Wayne Bryant (Host)
- Charles W. Chuck Bryant (Host)
What is discussed, and when
- – 5:00: Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids
- – 10:00: Xavier Roberts, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids
- – 15:00: Xavier Roberts, preeies, Newsweek, Newsweek
- – 20:00: Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Xavier Roberts
- – 25:00: Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids
- – 30:00: Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids
- – 35:00: Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids
- – 40:00: Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Xavier Roberts
- – 45:00: Xavier Roberts, Martha Nelson Thomas, Copyright, Cabbage Patch Kids
- – 50:00: Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids
- – 51:54: iHeart Radio, Bee the Beaver, Carrie Keley, iHeartRadio
Notable quotes from "SYSK's 12 Days of Christmas… Toys: Cabbage Patch Kids: Must-Have Toy of the Century"
Josh and for this episode on our stuff you should know 12 days of Christmas toys playlist. We're talking about Cabbage Patch Kids. One of the all-time top contenders for a…
about Cabbage Patch Kids · atThat's right. This remarkably the third time we've talked about Cabbage Patch Kids on this show.
about Charles Wayne Bryant · atArt a journal article that came out in 1986 in the semantics journal etc. and the cabbage patch kids were described as open arm denied seemingly dull-witted with mop-haired…
about Cabbage Patch Kids · atPeople and we're going to we're going to buy in here and so Xavier Roberts partnered with Kico and the rest of the story just kind of takes off like a rocket from there.
about Kico · atCredit is they managed to keep the party going for a full another year because in Christmas 1984, Cabbage Patch Kids were again the must-have toy. And in just 1984 alone, not…
about Cabbage Patch Kids · at70s. She experimented with the same exact German soft sculpture molding, and she created what was called little doll babies. If you Google Martha Nelson Thomas little dolls and…
about Martha Nelson Thomas · atAnd she didn't want to do that and he had no problem doing it. cars. Little Chuck has an Xavier Roberts hand signature on his butt if you pull down his little corduroy shorts.
about Xavier Roberts · atI loved garbage pail kids. I believe you had a pretty impressive garbage pail kid collection herself, too.
about Garbage Pail Kids · at
Who and what is mentioned in this episode?
People
- Charles Wayne Bryant — Person · Co-host / main speaker · 3 mentions · first at
Co-host of Stuff You Should Know; provides commentary, personal anecdotes, and introduces/frames the claim that Roberts ‘ripped off’ Martha Nelson Thomas. - Charles W. Chuck Bryant — Person · Co-host / main speaker · 2 mentions · first at
Co-host who contributes personal anecdotes (his sister’s early doll), adds corrections and commentary, and frames the 'true story' segment about Martha Nelson Thomas and the alleged copying.That's right. This remarkably the third time we've talked about Cabbage Patch Kids on this show.
- Xavier Roberts — Person · Key person / creator figure (commercialized) · 21 mentions · first at
Discussed as the artist who developed Little People/Cabbage Patch Kids for commercialization, founder of Original Appalachian Artworks and Babyland General, and central to the dispute with Martha Nelson Thomas. - Martha Nelson Thomas — Person · Referenced originator / plaintiff · 5 mentions · first at
Presented as the folk artist who earlier created 'little doll babies' using similar needle-molding techniques and later sued Xavier Roberts alleging he copied her work; central to the 'true origin' story discussed. - Charles Wayne Bryant — Person · Co-host / Main speaker · 2 mentions · first at
Co-host who adds personal anecdotes, corrections, and commentary; helps introduce the ‘true origin story’ segment and frames the controversy.That's right. This remarkably the third time we've talked about Cabbage Patch Kids on this show.
- Charles Wayne Bryant — Person · Co-host / main speaker · 3 mentions · first at
Co-host of Stuff You Should Know; provides personal anecdotes and frames the 'true origin story' segment alleging Roberts copied Martha Nelson Thomas.That's right. This remarkably the third time we've talked about Cabbage Patch Kids on this show.
- Christopher Xavier — Person · 3 mentions · first at
Become, iconic and they start popping up in other places like there was one named Christopher Xavier who's a very famous Cabbage Patch Kid, I guess, as Cabbage Patch Kids can…
- Ronald Reagan — Person · 2 mentions · first at
There was a rumor years after the fact that the design was managed by Ronald Reagan because he wanted to get Americans used to what mutant offspring might look like if we ever…
- Little Chuck — Person · 2 mentions · first at
Father could not imagine paying $40 for a doll. And I think even I think we even left without little Chuck and he went back because he felt so bad about how crest fallen my…
- Weber Dino — Person · 1 mention · first at
Cabbage Patch Kids. One of the all-time top contenders for a must-have Christmas toy. I had one. His name was Weber Dino and he was very great. We had very fun times together…
- Josh Malcolm Clark — Person · 1 mention · first at
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. And I'm Josh. Josh Malcolm Clark. There's Charles Wayne Bryant.
- Charles Wayne Bryant — Person · 1 mention · first at
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. And I'm Josh. Josh Malcolm Clark. There's Charles Wayne Bryant.
- Weberino — Person · 1 mention · first at
Weberino met a pretty a terrible demise.
- Otis Lee — Person · 1 mention · first at
And a little baby would be born from it, a cabbage patch kid. And one of those kids, a kid named Otis Lee, came up to Xavier and said, 'Hey, will you take me and all of my…
- Kenny Rogers — Person · 1 mention · first at
Xavier Roberts, who sort of looked like a sort of like a shorterhaired Kenny Rogers type, wore a cowboy hat and had this beard.
- Maxine Dexter — Person · 1 mention · first at
Place at the Oyola Art Show in CM, Florida, for, Little People that he named Dexter, which is one of the most uncanny, haunting, horrid dolls you'll ever see in your life. but…
- J.J. Abrams — Person · 1 mention · first at
Colon something. But it's good. It was It's by I think JJ isn't Bad Robot JJ Abrams production company.
- Millie Bobby Brown — Person · 1 mention · first at
Yeah, it was smart enough. And she's just great. Millie Bobby Brown is she's just she's got a lot of personality and lovable charisma. So, she's she's great to watch and it's fun to see her outside of playing 11 with.
- Art Spiegelman — Person · 1 mention · first at
Directors who helped conceptualize Garbage Pail Kids from the outset was Art Spiegelman who created Mouse.
- Budge family — Person · 1 mention · first at
That's right. Before we do listener mail real quick, I just want to give a shout out to the Budge family. not really going to get into what's going on with them, but just want…
- Carrie Keley — Person · 1 mention · first at
It is amazing. And that email, by the way, was from Carrie Keley.
- 11 (Stranger Things character) — Person · 1 mention
Books & papers
- Maus — Book · 9 mentions
Companies & orgs
- Kico — Company · Manufacturer / commercial partner · 1 mention · first at
Identified as the toy manufacturer (KICO/Kico) that partnered with Xavier Roberts in 1982 to mass-produce Little People as Cabbage Patch Kids and scale the brand. - Playalong Inc. — Company · Business focus · 2 mentions · first at
Current licensee of Cabbage Patch Kids, maintaining the brand's presence in the toy market.No. Yeah. And I Play Along, Inc., if that is their real name, was very wise to basically recreate the original 1983 style Cabbage Patch Kids. Like they're basically indistinguishable from the.
- Playalong, Inc. — Company · Current rights holder (referenced) · 1 mention · first at
Mentioned in the episode as the modern rights-holder/licensee for Cabbage Patch Kids (current commercial steward).No. Yeah. And I Play Along, Inc., if that is their real name, was very wise to basically recreate the original 1983 style Cabbage Patch Kids. Like they're basically indistinguishable from the.
- Topps — Company · Parody publisher / IP defendant · 1 mention · first at
Topps is the trading-card company that produced Garbage Pail Kids (a parody of Cabbage Patch Kids); mentioned in the context of legal and cultural conflict.Yeah, I guess so. I hadn't thought about that. So, one of the groups he was complaining about was Topps Trading Cards. Topps Trading Cards around the still in the height of the Cabbage Patch Kid craze in 1985 came out.
- Truett McConnell — Company · Referenced institution · 16 mentions
The college Xavier Roberts attended, where he developed the idea for Cabbage Patch Kids. - iHeart Radio — Company · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
The production company behind the podcast 'Stuff You Should Know'.Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.
- Namco — Company · Clarifying reference (Pac-Man owner) · 1 mention · first at
Mentioned to correct an earlier mistaken attribution: Namco made Pac-Man, not KICO.Yeah. I think it was Namco if I remember correctly.
- Kico (Coleco/KCO as referenced) — Company · 10 mentions
- Vice — Company · 6 mentions
- Stuff You Should Know — Company · 3 mentions · first at
Hey everybody, it's my turn now. It's Josh and for this episode on our stuff you should know 12 days of Christmas toys playlist. We're talking about Cabbage Patch Kids. One of the all-time top contenders for a must-have Christmas.
- Namco — Company · 3 mentions
- Original Appalachian Artworks — Company · 3 mentions
- Newsweek — Company · 2 mentions · first at
Featured on the TV show Real People, which I watched a lot as a kid, made Newsweek, made the Wall Street Journal, and so the press is starting to kind of come around and these…
- Toys R Us — Company · 2 mentions · first at
Went bankrupt in the 80s and the license moved on to different people over the years. Mattel, Hasbro, Toys R Us, and then right now it's owned by Playalong Inc. which it just…
- Zales Department Store (Zar/Zales as referenced) — Company · 2 mentions
- Semantics journal — Company · 1 mention · first at
Actually just ugly. there is a art a journal article that came out in 1986 in the semantics journal etc. and the cabbage patch kids were described as open arm denied seemingly…
- Real People — Company · 1 mention · first at
Really explodes in popular culture from sort of the early 80s. He was featured on the TV show Real People, which I watched a lot as a kid, made Newsweek, made the Wall Street…
- Zar department store — Company · 1 mention · first at
He's the manager of the Zar department store in December of 1983 at least.
- WKRP in Cincinnati — Company · 1 mention · first at
There was the black market that really marked them up. right. And this was not WKRP in Cincinnati, but it was very much in that rich tradition of DJs kind of conning people into acting like fools.
- Bad Robot — Company · 1 mention · first at
Called Challenger and then probably Colon something. But it's good. It was It's by I think JJ isn't Bad Robot JJ Abrams production company.
- My Octopus Teacher — Company · 1 mention · first at
Oh, okay. So, I think if we're going to talk about octopus, my octopus teacher, you should just turn down your volume for about a minute and you won't have it spoiled.
- US Olympic team — Company · 1 mention · first at
They reached in 1992 when they became I think maybe Christopher Xavier became the official mascot of the US Olympic team and got to go to Barcelona with him.
- Toy Story — Company · 1 mention · first at
But their collective star was going to fade. like all toys and all dolls, we've all seen Toy Story, we knows what hap, we know what happens in the end. yeah, it never completely went away, though.
- Topps Trading Cards — Company · 1 mention · first at
That. So, one of the groups he was complaining about was Topps Trading Cards. Topps Trading Cards around the still in the height of the Cabbage Patch Kid craze in 1985 came out…
- gpk.com — Company · 1 mention · first at
One, but they are for people who don't know what a garbage pail kit is, go look up gpk.com and I think it's like geek kay.com. I'm not sure, but they have every single series scanned so you can see all 15 series that came out between.
- stuffodcast@iheartradio.com — Company · 1 mention · first at
Time. And if you want to try to make us fall for something, have at us. You can send us an email to stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com.
- iHeartRadio — Company · 1 mention · first at
Fall for something, have at us. You can send us an email to stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com.
- Drop Dead Gorgeous — Company · 1 mention
- Enola Holmes — Company · 1 mention
- Zales Department Store — Company · 1 mention
Products & tech
- Cabbage Patch Kids — Product · Core product / case study · 28 mentions · first at
Central subject of the episode — the hosts trace the product's origin, commercialization, cultural craze (1983–84), product iterations, and legacy. - Cabbage Patch Kids — Product · Core topic · 24 mentions · first at
Primary focus of the episode, discussing the history, cultural impact, and business behind the iconic toy. - Garbage Pail Kids — Product · Case study · 3 mentions · first at
Parody trading cards that became a cultural phenomenon, directly inspired by Cabbage Patch Kids. - GPK / Garbage Pail Kids — Product · Cultural parody / related product · 1 mention · first at
Discussed as a Topps trading-card parody riffing on Cabbage Patch Kids; part of the cultural impact and legal friction surrounding the brand.Yeah, I guess so. I hadn't thought about that. So, one of the groups he was complaining about was Topps Trading Cards. Topps Trading Cards around the still in the height of the Cabbage Patch Kid craze in 1985 came out.
- Cabbage Patch Snack Time Kids — Product · Product iteration (problematic recall) · 1 mention · first at
Referenced as a problematic Mattel-era product variant that chewed and swallowed small items, creating safety concerns and recalls; used to illustrate later-stage product issues.Their head and fall into their backpack and then you could feed it to them again, which is great and fine. But if you're a little kid and you get your fingers in there or your…
- Pac-Man — Product · Incidental mention · 4 mentions · first at
Mentioned in passing as a product mistakenly attributed to Kico.Roberts started looking for some like a legit toy manufacturer to help him out. and he found it in Kico who had made a name I guess around the same time as maybe a little bit…
- Pac-Man — Product · Contextual reference (video game) · 4 mentions · first at
Referenced in discussion of KICO and video game makers (clarified KICO did not make Pac-Man; Namco did).So KCO and by the way just to save listener males Kico did not make Pac-Man. I just want to save you from that fate.
- Cabbage Patch Kids — Product · 24 mentions · first at
You should know 12 days of Christmas toys playlist. We're talking about Cabbage Patch Kids. One of the all-time top contenders for a must-have Christmas toy. I had one. His…
- Pac-Man — Product · 4 mentions · first at
As maybe a little bit before this year before maybe as the people who came out with Pac-Man. So they were riding high by this time and they said I think there's something to…
- Rubik's Cube — Product · 3 mentions · first at
They weren't like the Rubik's cube where they just made, millions and millions of these things. and it became a supply problem and it became a really big deal.
- Little doll babies — Product · 3 mentions · first at
70s. She experimented with the same exact German soft sculpture molding, and she created what was called little doll babies. If you Google Martha Nelson Thomas little dolls and…
- Garbage Pail Kids — Product · 3 mentions · first at
I loved garbage pail kids. I believe you had a pretty impressive garbage pail kid collection herself, too.
- B-26 bomber — Product · 3 mentions
- Little People (dolls) — Product · 2 mentions · first at
Yeah. my sister has one of the first like 75 of them of the Little People dolls.
- baseball bat — Product · 2 mentions · first at
A chord with me this year that he didn't last year. But he's he's holding a baseball bat very famously. But if you listen to what he's doing, he's shouting at the customers. He's Shut up.
- Michelle miniature license plate — Product · 1 mention · first at
Could kind of see dad's he thought he was going to have to get a Michelle miniature license plate for 250.
- Postage stamp — Product · 1 mention · first at
Years after these things were the hot ticket, you know. which is crazy time. they were on a postage stamp. eventually, of course, though, his star, well, not his star, there…
- French fries — Product · 1 mention · first at
Cabbage patch snack time kids. And they these things would like eat like they came with like French fries or something and you'd put like the French fry in their mouth and…
- backpack — Product · 1 mention · first at
It the French fry would go down their throat and actually come out the back of their head and fall into their backpack and then you could feed it to them again, which is great…
- iHeartRadio app — Product · 1 mention
- tomato pin cushion — Product · 1 mention
- Tomato pincushion — Product · 1 mention
Concepts & topics
- Cabbage Patch Kids — Concept · Core topic · 24 mentions · first at
Primary subject of the episode, discussing the history, cultural impact, and legal controversies surrounding the dolls. - Soft sculpture — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
Of needle molding. But somehow Xavier Roberts was I really like sculpture and this is a form of soft sculpture. I also like quilting and this kind of has to do with quilting.…
- Pac-Man — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
As maybe a little bit before this year before maybe as the people who came out with Pac-Man. So they were riding high by this time and they said I think there's something to…
- Needle molding — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
Across a German fabric sculpture technique from the 19th century called needle molding. And if you've ever seen you know that really famous tomato ping cushion, Chuck, from the 70s.
- Christopher Xavier — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
Become, iconic and they start popping up in other places like there was one named Christopher Xavier who's a very famous Cabbage Patch Kid, I guess, as Cabbage Patch Kids can…
- Copyright — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
This letter that says where he basically says he's going to rip her off, but she didn't copyright these things. And you would have had to copyright because they were all…
- Adoption marketing framework — Concept · 3 mentions
- Bunny bee — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
Xavier Roberts was wandering around the Appalachin Mountains and he saw what is called a bunny bee which is a magical bee that or magical bunny that can fly around like buzzes…
- preeies — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
Help the babies be born from cabbage from cabbages. then they would be incubated. There were preeies that were born. Like it was a big deal operation to take this idea of that…
- Challenge — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
And that reminds me, Chuck, have you seen the mini doc about the Challenger?
- lawsuit — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
Yeah. So she filed a lawsuit that went on for years. I think by the time they were selling out in stores in 1983, she was about 7 years into this lawsuit. And for her, it wasn't she.
- Squash Josh — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
Bought me a couple of garbage pail kids I have somewhere. I think one is Squash Josh. I can't remember the other one, but they are for people who don't know what a garbage pail kit is, go look up gpk.com and I think it's like geek.
- Drop Dead Gorgeous — Concept · 2 mentions
- Enola Holmes — Concept · 2 mentions
- Weber Dino — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Cabbage Patch Kids. One of the all-time top contenders for a must-have Christmas toy. I had one. His name was Weber Dino and he was very great. We had very fun times together…
- Weberino — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Weberino met a pretty a terrible demise.
- Ruskies — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Offspring might look like if we ever go to if the big one ever drops and we go to war with the Ruskies. we might want to get used to our babies looking like this. So, let's…
- UFO movies — Concept · 1 mention · first at
In the classic Hollywood like you know their theories that's why we make UFO movies. They're commissioned by the government to get people sort of adjusted to the idea that one day there's going to be aliens walking around.
- aliens — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Government to get people sort of adjusted to the idea that one day there's going to be aliens walking around.
- Otis Lee — Concept · 1 mention · first at
And a little baby would be born from it, a cabbage patch kid. And one of those kids, a kid named Otis Lee, came up to Xavier and said, 'Hey, will you take me and all of my…
- adoption birth certificates — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Not dolls that you buy. They were little people that you adopt. So you got adoption birth certificates. it was a it was a brilliant idea that he had put a pin in it, right?
- Oyoala Art Show — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Like craft fairs or something. And in fact, Xavier Roberts won first place at the Oyola Art Show in CM, Florida, for, Little People that he named Dexter, which is one of the…
- Dexter — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Place at the Oyola Art Show in CM, Florida, for, Little People that he named Dexter, which is one of the most uncanny, haunting, horrid dolls you'll ever see in your life. but…
- cabbage sections — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Preeies in Cabbage Patch Land were so cute. they also had C-sections, cabbage sections. And by the time 1980 rolls around, he's selling a pretty good amount of these things…
- black market — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Were actual stores that were buying them up and then marking them up and then there was the black market that really marked them up. right. And this was not WKRP in Cincinnati, but it was very much in that rich tradition of DJs kind of.
- My Octopus Teacher — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Oh, okay. So, I think if we're going to talk about octopus, my octopus teacher, you should just turn down your volume for about a minute and you won't have it spoiled.
- US Olympic team — Concept · 1 mention · first at
They reached in 1992 when they became I think maybe Christopher Xavier became the official mascot of the US Olympic team and got to go to Barcelona with him.
- Toy Story — Concept · 1 mention · first at
But their collective star was going to fade. like all toys and all dolls, we've all seen Toy Story, we knows what hap, we know what happens in the end. yeah, it never completely went away, though.
- Knockoffs — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Then later on complained that he was getting ripped off. He complained about knockoffs and said, my point is not take my product and my creation and tarnish it.
- settlement — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Right when he was settling with this other case in which a part of the settlement was he had to acknowledge that he had taken her idea and to for him to be complaining about…
- Toy industry — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Full story but the even though it was a open secret or even a widely known tale in the toy industry and in some parts of the press. Even still today, everybody thinks of Xavier…
- Adam Bomb — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Were they were deformed and they were plagued and diseased and they had names like Adam Bomb and Bony Tony and I guess Squash Josh and Roommy Yumi. I don't know.
- Bony Tony — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Plagued and diseased and they had names like Adam Bomb and Bony Tony and I guess Squash Josh and Roommy Yumi. I don't know.
- Roommy Yumi — Concept · 1 mention · first at
They had names like Adam Bomb and Bony Tony and I guess Squash Josh and Roommy Yumi. I don't know.
- parody — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Show you just how big Cabbage Patch Kids were that it could sustain a cottage industry for a parody even. That's how big Cabbage Patch Kids were in that.
- Bigfoot — Concept · 1 mention · first at
Cultural outlook on different things. I do have a small difference of opinion though. Your Bigfoot podcast was great.
- Nessie — Concept · 1 mention · first at
You were adamant that Nessie does not exist. Buddy, show Nessie some love. wouldn't it be amazing if she did exist?
- Bee the Beaver — Concept · 1 mention · first at
That. But the real reason she wrote in, she listened to the beaver episode and came across Bee the Beaver. So just get online and Google Bea. It was this beaver that was found…
- 11 — Concept · 1 mention
- 11 (Stranger Things character) — Concept · 1 mention
Places & events
- Babyland General Hospital — Place · Venue / brand experience · 1 mention · first at
Physical themed venue in Cleveland, Georgia founded by Original Appalachian Artworks to dramatize the 'adoption' experience for Cabbage Patch Kids; discussed as part of origin story and hosts' visits.That's right. Babyland General right here in Cleveland, Georgia. And I just so happened to have driven by there. but two days ago I went up Oh yeah.
- Martha Nelson Thomas photo (75) — Place · Evidentiary artifact (photograph reference) · 3 mentions
Referenced in the episode as photographic evidence (1975 photo) showing Martha Nelson Thomas with dolls that resemble later Cabbage Patch Kids; used to support origin claim.Exact German soft sculpture molding, and she created what was called little doll babies. If you Google Martha Nelson Thomas little dolls and you see this very f now famous…
- Truett McConnell — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
The college Xavier Roberts attended, where he developed the idea for Cabbage Patch Kids.So, of course, I knew it was there. But, that's where Xavier Roberts went to college. He went to college at Truit McConnell there in Cleveland. So, that was the connection.
- Unicoi State Park — Place · Purchase origin / personal anecdote location · 4 mentions
Referenced as the gift-shop / park store where one host purchased an original Xavier Roberts Little People doll (memory/anecdote).And he sold these things, Little People originals. He had he went to arts and craft shows. He sold them. We bought ours at Unicoy Lodge at Uncoy State Park in a gift shop…
- Unicoi State Park — Place · 6 mentions
- Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania — Place · 6 mentions
- Appalachian Mountains — Place · 3 mentions
- Truett McConnell (Tru McConnell) — Place · 3 mentions
- Unicoi Lodge — Place · 3 mentions
- USSR — Place · 3 mentions
- Cleveland, Georgia — Place · 2 mentions · first at
That's right. Babyland General right here in Cleveland, Georgia. And I just so happened to have driven by there. but two days ago I went up Oh yeah.
- CM, Florida — Place · 1 mention · first at
Like craft fairs or something. And in fact, Xavier Roberts won first place at the Oyola Art Show in CM, Florida, for, Little People that he named Dexter, which is one of the…
- Oyola Art Show — Place · 1 mention · first at
Like craft fairs or something. And in fact, Xavier Roberts won first place at the Oyola Art Show in CM, Florida, for, Little People that he named Dexter, which is one of the…
- Florida — Place · 1 mention · first at
Fact, Xavier Roberts won first place at the Oyola Art Show in CM, Florida, for, Little People that he named Dexter, which is one of the most uncanny, haunting, horrid dolls…
- Milwaukee, Wisconsin — Place · 1 mention · first at
And this happened in Milwaukee, Wisconsin when some local DJs there said there's going to be a B26 bomber plane and it's going to drop $2,000 over the Brewers baseball stadium and.
- Brewers baseball stadium — Place · 1 mention · first at
Said there's going to be a B26 bomber plane and it's going to drop $2,000 over the Brewers baseball stadium and all you got to do is show up with your baseball glove to catch…
- Barcelona — Place · 1 mention · first at
Think maybe Christopher Xavier became the official mascot of the US Olympic team and got to go to Barcelona with him.
- New York City, New York — Place · 1 mention · first at
Which were a big deal. And they, debuted them at their flagship store in New York City. And they sort of recaptured the magic a little bit. and it's about this time, and I…
- Atlanta airport — Place · 1 mention · first at
And then supposedly one of her friends said, Hey, I saw your little doll babies for sale at the Atlanta airport. Way to go. She said, I'm not selling these at the Atlanta airport.
- Appalachia — Place · 1 mention · first at
My god, why does he sound cochnney? And then you pulled it out with the real Appalachia Mountain folk twist at the end there.
Media & podcasts
- Garbage Pail Kids — Media · Referenced work · 3 mentions · first at
A parody trading card series that became a cultural phenomenon, directly inspired by Cabbage Patch Kids.I loved garbage pail kids. I believe you had a pretty impressive garbage pail kid collection herself, too.
- Newsweek — Media · Referenced media · 2 mentions · first at
Featured Cabbage Patch Kids on its cover in December 1983, boosting their popularity.Press, a lot of interest drummed up for Cabbage Patch Kids. And all of that kind of culminated in a December 12th two 1983 edition of Newsweek when there was a cabbage patch a…
- Newsweek — Media · Media evidence / cultural marker · 2 mentions · first at
Referenced as an example of mainstream media coverage (Cabbage Patch Kid on Newsweek cover, Dec 12, 1983) that fueled the 1983 craze.That's right. Because every kid in America was reading Newsweek and saying, Mom, dad, look. It's on the cover.
- Real People — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
A TV show that featured Cabbage Patch Kids, contributing to their early fame.Really explodes in popular culture from sort of the early 80s. He was featured on the TV show Real People, which I watched a lot as a kid, made Newsweek, made the Wall Street…
- Challenger — Media · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at
A documentary mentioned in passing, unrelated to the main topic.And that reminds me, Chuck, have you seen the mini doc about the Challenger?
Full transcript with timestamps
Hey everybody, it's my turn now. It's Josh and for this episode on our stuff you should know 12 days of Christmas toys playlist. We're talking about Cabbage Patch Kids. One of the all-time top contenders for a must-have Christmas toy. I had one. His name was Weber Dino and he was very great. We had very fun times together, important times. At any rate, whether you had a Cabbage Patch Kid or not, I think you're going to enjoy this episode. So, turn up your cocoa, throw some marshmallows in there, and enjoy this app.
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. And I'm Josh. Um Josh Malcolm Clark. There's Charles Wayne Bryant. This is stuff you should know about Cabbage Patch Kids who have two names, which is why I just did that.
That's right. This uh remarkably the third time we've talked about Cabbage Patch Kids on this show.
I only remember one other time. When was the When was the third time or the the second time, I guess? Well, the last time was uh not even a year ago um on our on our episode on mustave Christmas gifts. And then
that's all I remember. Yeah. And then while I was uh telling the story of my Cabbage Patch Kid experience, you said, "Yes, you've told everyone the story before,
so I think this will be the third time that we hear these stories." I thought you didn't have a Cabbage Patch, kid. So, you don't remember the other two times I told the story?
No, you got to tell it again. It's called the It's called the hat trick, baby. Uh yeah. Uh my sister has one of the the first like 75 of them uh of the Little People dolls.
Oh, wow. That she bought in Georgia when she was a kid. Now I uh now I know why it didn't stick with me because I didn't understand what the heck you were talking about. Now I totally get it and I think it will stay with me forever. Chuck, when we do our fourth, fifth, and sixth uh podcasts on Cabbage Patch Kids, I will be the one telling that story. How about that?
Uh well, and you also told the story of yours that you uh ripped the head off and gave it a mohawk.
Yeah. For yours. Weberino met a a pretty a terrible demise. And I have two of them myself that my mom every once in a while says, "Hey, do you want these?" And I say, "No, I don't I don't think they're worth much money." And I I don't know even know if My Sisters is worth a lot of money now, even though it's handsigned and one of the first ones. I just I don't think the market is as robust as it was at one point.
So, was hers a Kico Little People or is Xavier Roberts like original Appalachin artworks um Little People? No, hers was one of the handmade Xavier Roberts uh craft fair dolls.
I I I think those go for like one, two, maybe $2,000, I think. Yeah. Just I guess depends on where you look. Like I saw the one that of mine that was one of those originals and it wasn't one of the first 100, but people were asking like 150 bucks on eBay for those.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I'm surprised to see that. Like from what I've seen, if like if if you really want the big bucks, it's the the original Xavier Roberts Little People. But um we're probably getting ahead of ourselves a little bit because some people are probably like, "What's a Cabbage Patch Kid?" Right.
Right. So, well, we'll tell everybody what a Cabbage Patch Kid is. It's a little doll that um was a huge huge deal in the Christmas of 1983. And like Chuck said, we talked about this on um I guess it was our I think it was our Christmas episode or was it a different standalone um episode from last year?
No, I think the first time we did it was a Christmas episode and then last year it was in November. It was just a must have Christmas toys.
Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Um so that's worth listening to. But um in in December of 1983, Christmas of 1983, everybody was going crazy for these dolls. But at the same time, there was like because it was such a huge craze and there they were so part of like popular culture at the moment. They were on the news every night. Um people were doing just absolutely crazy things to get their hands on these these dolls for their kids. There was a lot of talk about, well, what what what are these things? They're so ugly that they're cute. And other people thought, well, no, they're actually just ugly. Um there is a a a art a journal article that came out in 1986 in the semantics journal etc. Um and the cabbage patch kids were described as open arm denied seemingly dull-witted with mop-haired faces only mothers could love which I think is pretty pretty it's a pretty accurate description of a cabbage patch kid don't
you think? Yeah. So uh on that there was and this is something I never knew. Apparently, there was a rumor uh years after the fact that um the design was um managed by Ronald Reagan because he wanted to get Americans used to what um mutant offspring might look like if we ever go to if the big one ever drops and we go to war with the Ruskies. Um we might want to get used to our babies looking like this. So, let's just It's sort of in the classic Hollywood like you know their theories that that's why we make UFO movies. They're commissioned by the government to get people sort of adjusted to the idea that one day there's going to be aliens walking around.
Right. Exactly. Um but that's probably not the case. Ronald Reagan probably didn't have anything to do with it. But that's just such an 80s thing. Cabbage Patch Kids, Ronald Reagan and Nuclear War with the USSR. That's about like the greatest 80s combination I've ever heard of in my life.
Yeah, pretty good. So, um, if you go on to the Cabbage Patch Kids website, you'll find the, um, enchanting magical story of where Cabbage Patch Kids came from or how they came into our human world. And it goes something like um this that when he was a young boy, Xavier Roberts uh was wandering around the Appalachin Mountains and he saw what uh is called a bunny bee which is a magical bee that or magical bunny that can fly around like buzzes around like a bee and he followed it and the bunny bee went through a waterfall and Xavier Roberts went and looked and saw that behind the waterfall there was a tunnel and he went into the tunnel being an inquisitive type of appalachin young boy. Um, and when he came out on the other side of the tunnel, he was clearly in some sort of enchanted land because there were a bunch of bunny bees flying around over a cabbage patch, sprinkling some sort of magical dust. And Xavier
noticed that when the dust hit the cabbage, the cabbage would start to move and a little baby would be born from it, a cabbage patch kid. And one of those kids, a kid named Otis Lee, came up to Xavier and said, 'Hey, will you take me and all of my friends over to your human world and help us find homes? And so Xavier Roberts agreed and he founded Babyland General Hospital for the purpose of adopting out Cabbage Patch Kids. And that's where it all came from.
That's right. Uh Babyland General right here in Cleveland, Georgia. And I just so happened to have driven by there. Uh but two days ago I went up
Oh yeah. Yeah. We went on a a waterfall hike the family did on Sunday. And did you see a bunny bee?
We didn't see a bunny bee, but we drove right by Baby Land General and Emily was like, "Did you know that was there?" I was like, "Yeah, I've been there." So, of course, I knew it was there. But,
uh that's where Xavier Roberts went to college. He went to college at Truit McConnell there in Cleveland. So, that was the connection.
Right. Right. Yeah. If you want to if you want to kind of take it down a notch as far as magical enchantment goes, the the official story is that um Xavier Roberts while he was at Tru McConnell um while he was studying art there, he came across a German fabric sculpture technique from the 19th century called needle molding. And um if you've ever seen you know that that really famous tomato ping cushion, Chuck, from the 70s.
Mhm. So, you know how how like the top the creases in the top of the tomato are made by like like taut thread pulled through together to kind of create that that molded look
that from what I can tell is is a form of needle molding. But somehow Xavier Roberts was like, I really like sculpture and this is a form of soft sculpture. I also like quilting and this kind of has to do with quilting. I'm going to get into this and I'm going to figure out how to make baby dolls using this needle molding technique. and he did just that starting in 1977.
Yeah. And uh for those of you that want to throw your um car into a ditch right now because you're screaming about the story um because you know the true story, just put a pin in it. We're going to get around to it.
That was very merciful of you, Chuck. Yeah. I didn't want people to to think that we didn't know. Um, but in 1977, uh, Xavier Roberts, uh, who sort of looked like a sort of like a shorterhaired Kenny Rogers type, uh, wore a cowboy hat and had this beard. And, um, he developed these, uh, they were, like you said, soft sculpture, but they were dolls called Little People. And here was the sort of hitch that really drove kids wild is that they were not dolls that you buy. They were little people that you adopt. So you got adoption birth certificates. Um it was a um it was a brilliant idea that he had put a pin in it,
right? And he and he sold these things, Little People originals. He had uh he went to arts and craft shows. He sold them. We bought ours at Unicoy Lodge at Uncoy State Park in a gift shop there. So that was the kind of place that would carry this kind of stuff. Um, they were about $40 and I remember distinctly that my father could not imagine paying $40 for a doll. And uh, I think even I think we even left without little Chuck and he went back because he felt so bad about how crest fallen my sister was and bought the doll later on for a Christmas gift or something if my memory served me. But it was a lot of money. Uh, 40 bucks was a lot of money for a doll back then. Yeah, it was probably getting pretty close to a hundred bucks. And I mean, who goes to Uniccoy State Park's gift shop and expects to drop a hundred bucks on a piece of folk art that's really just a baby doll, you know? I could kind of see dad's
he thought he was going to have to get a a Michelle miniature license plate for 250.
Sure. Exactly. And when you go in with an expectation like that and you are faced with a $100 uh soft sculpture um payment that you have to make, that's a big shock. And sometimes somebody needs to get in their car and drive home and think about it before they can accept that.
That's right. So um that like you said, that's exactly the kind of place you would have bought this. You could have also found him at like craft fairs or something. And in fact, um, uh, Xavier Roberts won first place at the Oyola Art Show in CM, Florida, um, for, uh, Little People that he named Dexter, which is one of the most uncanny, haunting, horrid dolls you'll ever see in your life. Um, but it helped kind of generate some buzz. And at that point, he was like, you know what, this is things are kind of going well. People are paying 40 bucks for for um to adopt one of these little people.
I'm winning first place prizes. I'm going to get together some friends. And he uh founded what's known as Original Appalachin Artworks. Um and they they are the ones that actually opened up Babyland General. They took a an old medical center in Cleveland, which is super creepy. Um that they they they took an abandoned hospital and opened it at for it's basically like a doll store. Really creepy if you step back and just look at the contours of the whole thing. Um but it was
No, no, it didn't. I'm just saying if you just look at the words on paper and you put it like that, it does seem like
when you hospital, it was like a little house. It and it was the opposite of creepy. Like it was delightful. And I guess it still is because I mean it's still an operation today, but people would show up and like there were like the the people who worked there were dressed up as nurses and doctors and and they would help the uh the the babies be born from cabbage um from cabbages. Uh then they would be incubated. There were preeies that were born. Like it was a big deal operation to take this this idea of that you were adopting a a Cabbage Patch Kid rather than buying a doll and then like adding that whole extra dimension to it of going to Baby Land General to do it really helped generate a lot of buzz for for these things.
Yeah. And I should say that my sister's doll Chuck who was they come with their name. She didn't name it after me, but uh Chuck had um you know, if you see the the early versions of these things, like you said, it was kind of horrific looking. They they weren't the cutest dolls at all. Chuck had a very crooked hairline. Um like it looked like it was made by someone who didn't fully know what they were doing. His little yarn hairline was like a good three inches higher on one side of his forehead than the other, which
oh my, again, further my dad did not see the charm in this. He was like, "It's not even made well and I got to pay $40 for these things." But um supposedly with the preeies, uh Xavier Roberts has given some credit to just raising awareness for premature babies because uh the preeies in Cabbage Patch Land were so cute. Uh they also had C-sections, cabbage sections. And uh by the time 1980 rolls around, he's selling a pretty good amount of these things, but it really explodes uh in popular culture from sort of the early 80s. He was uh featured on the TV show Real People, um which I watched a lot as a kid, uh made Newsweek, uh made the Wall Street Journal, and so the press is starting to kind of come around and these things are just getting more and more popular at this point. Yeah, a lot of those stories just kind of focused on um people who were paying a lot more than the original retail price to start collecting these
dolls. So, there's like a whole underground cult market that was developing around these little people. Um, and it became very apparent that Xavier Roberts was not going to be able to keep up with supply. So, he started looking for some help and he found it in 1982. And we will talk all about that partnership made in heaven starting after these messages.
Okay, Chuck. So, uh, it's 1982 and the little people are just going bonkers. They're flying off of shelves. They can't keep them in stock anywhere they're selling them. Uniccoy State Park is on the phone every day being like, "Send us more. Send us more. We don't care what the hairline looks like. We got to have them." And um, so Xavier Roberts started looking for some like a a legit toy manufacturer to help him out. and he found it in Kico who had made a name I guess around the same time as maybe a little bit before this year before maybe as the people who um came out with Pac-Man. So they were riding high by this time and they said I think there's something to this these little people and we're going to we're going to buy in here and so um Xavier Roberts partnered with Kico and the the rest of the story just kind of takes off like a rocket from there.
Yeah. So, this was in 1982 and uh at at first Kico said, "You know what? We're going to keep calling them Little People. Uh we think that's a a good name, even though it wasn't." Um so, they stuck with the name. Uh they figured out the best way to mass-produce these things um was to get rid of that handdone, handsewn head. That was a real problem. That's what took the most time. Um it's also, frankly, what gave those early dolls all the personality. Um, a lot of that was lost when they went to the the plastic heads, but they did keep the uh cloth bodies. Uh, they machine produced these vinyl heads. They size the doll down a little bit to about 16 in. Um, the initial dolls were pretty big. Um, they varied in size obviously depending on how old um they were when you adopted them, but um they they were large. Like Chuck was a big doll. The two I have were big dolls. Yeah. They were like the size where if they were
possessed by a demon and came alive, they could smother you. Like you'd be in big trouble if they came alive while you were asleep.
Yes. Big time. Uh but sizing them down made a big difference cuz then you could just box them up, get more shelf space that way.
Sure. And they were smart early on, too, to realize that kids wanted a lot of uh variety. Um they wanted different uh ethnicities. They wanted different skin color, different shapes. They wanted some with freckles, some with dimples, um obviously different eye color and hair color and stuff like that. And that was one of the big selling points is it wasn't just this um samsies mass-produced doll that that right every kid could have the same one. Every kid wanted a different version.
Yeah. Because I mean that was the part of the whole marketing that you were adopting your own individual kid, your own Cabbage Patch kid who had his or her own name, his or her own like specific birth date. Um he or she was a unique little baby that you were adopting. So, um, the idea that you could take different head molds and different facial features and different types of hair and you had like a few different from each category, you suddenly had like millions of combinations that you could randomly put together. It continued that uniqueness that was like part of the brand from the beginning and like you said was like part of like the big the big thing that like made this craze so so huge. You know, they were very smart to to identify that as a big part of the marketing and then figure out a way to carry it on while also mass- prodducing these things. It was pretty clever on KCO's part.
Yeah. And it was also clever to change the name. Um little people Yeah. just didn't have legs basically in the end. And they thought Cabbage Patch Kids, they were born in the Cabbage Patch. It's um and you know looking back it's it's a pretty brilliant name uh because it ties into being adopted uh being born in the little cabbage patch and um it's it it was pretty brilliant I think. Um it it was the kind of name like that you could end up making into a bunch of other things which they did and we're going to talk about that but I don't think little people quite had the legs to do that. So, um, KCO also figured out that there was a a really good sweet spot that even if you couldn't really afford it, you would still stretch to reach that point. And they started adopting these the adoption fees for Cabbage Patch Kids came to about $30, which is $78 in today's money. Um, and then they they took their
um, you know, comparatively much larger clout um, and contacts in the media and started getting way more press for Cabbage Patch Kids than Xavier Roberts ever managed to to generate for Little People. Which I have to say, looking looking back though, Xavier Roberts did some really good work as just some dude from Cleveland, Georgia who was hand sewing dolls. I mean, he got some pretty good coverage very niche and regional,
right? Exactly. And it wasn't. It became a big deal. But Kico just put it to shame. They they um they got a lot of press, a lot of um interest drummed up for Cabbage Patch Kids. And all of that kind of culminated in a December 12th um two 1983 edition of Newsweek when there was a a cabbage patch a little girl with her cabbage patch kit on the cover of that edition just in time for the Christmas buying season.
That's right. Because every kid in America was reading Newsweek and saying, "Mom, dad, look. It's on the cover.
We have to get one." Yep. And that was at the very quaint time when when you would um you would just start Christmas shopping two weeks before Christmas rather than eight months before Christmas.
Uh so KCO and by the way just to save listener males uh Kico did not make Pac-Man. I just want to save you from that fate.
Is that right? Yeah. I think I think it was Namco if I remember correctly. Oh man.
I mean they did do video games but Okay. Well, thanks for saving me. No, no, no. There'll be plenty of uh people that write that probably sent the email before I even got to this and that want to retract the email, but uh that's okay. So, they started selling these things like hotcakes. Uh they sold um 3 million plus by the end of 1983. And like so many uh Christmas items that came before and after, it is sort of the frenzy is determined by availability and and supply. And they were underprepared
and they could not keep up with demand. Uh they weren't like uh the Rubik's cube where they just made, you know, millions and millions and millions of these things. Uh and it became a supply problem and it became a really big deal. And this is um this is the first toy where people were angry because there weren't enough of them to go around.
Yeah. And I mean they still made 3 million of them and they ran out like very quickly. And and when you say people were angry like they were throwing elbows. They were um pushing one another. They were like they were getting physical trying to get these dolls. And now it's like well yeah that sounds like a a Christmas like must have Christmas toy. People hadn't done that up to this point. This was very new. And so in addition to, you know, the normal press they were getting, these dolls were also ending up on like the nightly news a lot that December with stories about how parents were like driving across state lines to get one of those Cabbage Patch Kids. or there was a a story about a a post carrier in Kansas City, I think, who flew to London to buy one, which I don't understand why because London had its own frenzy going on as well. Um, there was a whole lot of stuff going down that hadn't really gone
down before Cabbage Patch Kids came along that Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that became a technique to sell more things was to either uh falsely um kind of falsely say that you don't have enough.
I think we covered that in the mustave toys episode that that is that is a technique that they use that they per they purposefully underproduce to to create scarcity.
Yeah. But then you can't sell as many. I would think it'd be better to produce the regular amount and then just say you didn't and then they're like, "But we found a warehouse that we didn't know about."
Right. Exactly. Because you still want to move these dolls. I mean, Rubik's Cube, they sold 200 million Rubik's Cubes in the first few years.
I know. That's nuts because they were just pumping those things out. Yeah. Well, at at the very least, I think Kico was genuinely caught underprepared. I don't think it was a in any way, shape, or form a purposeful Oh, no. Scarcity. I think it was just straight up scarcity. Um, and there was there was there's this footage from uh Zales Depart or no, sorry, Zer department store
Wilsberry, Pennsylvania. Right. This is in Wilksberry Wilsberry, Pennsylvania or Wils Barra. I've also seen Pennsylvania. Um, but there's this manager who I know we talked about before, but you got to see this guy. He's the manager of the Zar department store um in December of 1983 at least. And this guy's like unhinged. Have you seen footage of him?
Yeah, we I saw him last year. Okay. You got to see him again. I got to describe him again because I I he struck a chord with me this year that he didn't last year. But he's he's holding a baseball bat very famously. But if you listen to what he's doing, he's shouting at the customers. He's like, "Shut up. Listen to me." Hey. And he's like waving this baseball bat. And there's this crowd of people filling every available inch of this this department store wanting Cabbage Patch Kids. And this guy decides that the way to satisfy the need is to just start tossing them into the crowd. So the crowd is like jostling, going crazy, trying to catch these Cabbage Patch kids while the manager of the department store is screaming at them holding a baseball bat. It's one of the worst forms of crowd management anyone's ever attempted ever. And it was caught on film and you got to see it yourself.
Yeah, he was uh uh he wasn't doing his best work that day. I think that's we can all agree on that. He
really wasn't agreed. A lot of times the the um the problems were so big that they didn't even want people in the stores. So they would say like we can't have a another fist fight in here. So, what you do is you can arrive and get a coupon and then you go around back to the loading dock and we'll distribute them there. Um, the secondary market started booming. There were actual stores that were buying them up and then marking them up and then there was the black market that really really marked them up. Um,
right. And this was not WKRP in Cincinnati, but it was uh very much in that rich tradition of of DJs um kind of conning people into acting like fools. And this happened in Milwaukee, Wisconsin when um some local DJs there said there's going to be a B26 bomber plane and it's going to drop $2,000 over the Brewers baseball stadium and all you got to do is show up with your baseball glove to catch these babies and hold up your credit card so the pilot can take a picture and charge you for it. And of course, this is the dumbest thing you've ever heard, but that still didn't stop Yeah. uh a couple of dozen people from showing up with their baseball glove and credit card.
Yeah. And -7 degree windchill, which is very cold if you're in the centigrade parts of the world. That's very cold. Um
they're used to it, I guess. So, um but the the Yeah, the fact that people would would do that is is like I I double checked to make sure that that wasn't an urban legend and it definitely is not. Like that was that really did happen in Milwaukee in 1983. That was like the the level the craze reached. Um, and what's really to Kico's credit is they managed to keep the party going for a full another year because in Christmas 1984, Cabbage Patch Kids were again the must-have toy. And in just 1984 alone, not 1983 Christmas season, 1984, that year, they sold $2 billion worth of Cabbage Patch Kids in 1984 money.
Yeah. I mean, this was, I think, one of the things that made it truly unique is, uh, like I said, the Rubik's Cube was really hot for a few years, but generally, as these things go, it's sort of like the you can count on the one Christmas season. If you're overlapping to the next Christmas season, that is a grand slam home run as far as toys go.
Absolutely. So, one of the one of the outcomes of that of of being a toy that manage manages to span two Christmas seasons that that thoroughly um is they become, you know, iconic uh and they start popping up in other places like um there was one named Christopher Xavier who's a very famous Cabbage Patch Kid, I guess, as as Cabbage Patch Kids can be famous. Um, and he actually rode on the space shuttle uh on a on a genuine legit NASA space shuttle mission in 1985. Um, and that reminds me, Chuck, have you seen the the mini doc about um about the Challenger?
No, not yet. Is it good? Oh boy, it is really good. I mean, it's a it's a high high caliber documentary to begin with, but then like the the emotionality that it manages to to dredge up is really it's a really well done documentary in every every way. I highly recommend it.
Where's that uh showing? That one's on uh Netflix, I believe. I'm almost positive. And I think it's just called Challenger and then probably Colon something. But um it's good. It was It's by uh I think JJ isn't Bad Robot JJ Abrams production company. Yeah,
they did it. They were one of the companies that that handled it. But it was it's very good.
I did watch Anola Holmes on your recommendation. Yes. What' you think? I liked it a lot. It was good. It was just a good, breezy, light, fun movie to watch, which is just what we needed the night we watched it.
It for sure. And And but it was smart, too, wasn't it? Yeah, it was it was smart enough. And she's just great. Millie Bobby Brown is uh she's just she's got a lot of personality and lovable charisma. So, she's she's great to watch and it's fun to see her outside of playing 11 uh with all her personality able to come out like that.
Right. Yeah. Well, I'm very glad that you liked it because I think we would have had some sort of awkward wedge between us for the rest of our lives
had you not. You haven't seen the octopus doc yet? No. I did. Oh, okay. So, I think if if we're going to talk about octopus, my octopus teacher, you should just turn down your volume for about a minute and uh you won't have it spoiled.
All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. And actually, I think that guy is terrible. I think he's a terrible human being for not rescuing his companion friend for on two different occasions.
Really? Yes. And I know that he's a documentarian, so they're not supposed to interfere. I've seen Drop Deadad Gorgeous. I know the rules. But this is different. He crossed the line. He crossed boundaries when he became friends with that octopus. He stopped being a documentarian. Started being its friend and then he as its friend wasn't there for his friend when it was attacked not once but twice. And I really dislike that guy for that reason.
Oh, interesting. Well, I don't concur. But I guess uh that's part of the beauty of that movie. You can have different different takes.
So, but there's not a gulf between us, a wedge between us now, is there? I mean, did you hate the documentary? No, I I otherwise thought it was amazing.
All right. Well, then there's no golf. Amazing. It really was. Really was great. Except for the that one thing times two.
All right. No wedge. Um, so let's see back to Cabbage Patch Kids. There's another kind of landmark they reached in 1992 when they became I think maybe Christopher Xavier became the official mascot of the US Olympic team and got to go to Barcelona with him.
Yeah. I mean, this is is pretty impressive. This is 10 plus years after these things were the hot ticket, you know. Um, which is crazy crazy time. Um, they were on a postage stamp. Um, eventually, of course, though, his star, well, not his star, there was more than Christopher Xavier, but their collective star was going to fade. Uh, like all toys and all dolls, uh, we've all seen Toy Story, we knows what hap, we know what happens in the end. Um,
yeah, it never completely went away, though. They, you know, Kico eventually was like, you know, we got to offload these guys. Uh, we're going to sell it. Uh, we're in the video game industry like big time. Um, and so we got to uh
Have you heard of Pac-Man? Well, the video game industry starts tanking. So, they're trying to, I guess, recoup some money on their investment. So, they sell the Cabbage Patch Kid license.
Uh, and then, you know, this is not before trying a few things. They tried like talking cabbage patch kids uh and stuff like that, but eventually uh they went bankrupt in the 80s and the license moved on to different people over the years. Uh Mattel, Hasbro, uh Toys R Us, and then right now it's owned by Playalong Inc. which it just seems like those are seems like there's a lot of toy companies named weird things like that now.
I agree. I agree. And I find it unsettling like their slogan should be we're watching you.
It just seems like we talk about those a lot. Like there's still the giants like Hasbro and Mattel, but I feel like when we've done our toy podcast, it seems like the newer ones, they don't have these sort of name brands that you that you think of as toys.
No, I know. They all sound like Russian fronts. It's really weird and unsettling and kind of off-putting.
And all the C's are K's. It's really strange. It's very sinister. So, yeah, along the along the lines, like all of these companies were like, "We've got to figure out a way to to capture lightning in a bottle again." Um, a second time. That just doesn't happen. It's hard enough the first time. Um, and so they tried different things. Like you said, Kico tried that talking one, didn't work. Um, I think Hasbro had one that swam, which is kind of impressive. Sure.
Um, and then Mattel had one that they had to withdraw. It was called um cabbage patch snack time kids. And they uh these things would like eat like they came with like French fries or something and you'd put like the French fry in their mouth and they'd start chewing and it the French fry would go down their throat and actually come out the back of their head and fall into their backpack and then you could feed it to them again, which is great and fine. But if you're a little kid and you get your fingers in there or your hair in there, that Cabbage Patch doll is just going to keep eating and eating and you're going to start screaming and your parents are going to be like, "I don't want this doll anymore. Give me my money back."
Yeah. And these things also declined in quality. Um I think in the mid '9s, Mattel shrunk them even more down to 14 in and they were like, "Forget these cloth bodies even. We're going to make the whole thing vinyl." Uh and people didn't like that at all. And it took, I think the 20th anniversary in 2003, it took Toys R Us, uh, who took over the rights at that point to, um, jack these things back up to 18 in. Um, they had cloth bodies. Uh, I think they had an 18-in and a 20-in. And then they they finally brought back those cloth bodies, which were a big deal. And they, um, debuted them at their flagship store in New York City. And they sort of recaptured the magic a little bit. Uh, and it's about this time, and I think a year later is when uh, Playalong uh, licensed it, but it's about this time that people started buying them again a little bit for nostalgia, like kids that grew up with them were now buying them
for their kids. And I think, you know, they sold okay. It's nothing like they were at first, but they're still around.
No. Yeah. And I Play Along, Inc., if that is their real name, was very wise to basically recreate the original 1983 style Cabbage Patch Kids. Like they're basically indistinguishable from the ones that that the people who are buying them now for their kids had when they were kids.
And it's like you said, it's all nostalgia and they're they're doing pretty good trade on it with without having to reinvent the wheel.
That's right. Uh a little quick stat before we take a break that is remarkable. Uh over the past 32 years, there have been 130 million of these babies born. Uh which would, if they were real little people, it would make them the 10th most populous country in the world. Uh with one being born every 6.8 seconds. Uh but having said that, we're going to take a little break and right after this, we are going to tell you the true origin story of the little people.
Okay, Chuck, I'm curious. Why did you say true like that? Well, if you listen to the show a year ago, it's already ruined. But, uh, we didn't go into that much depth. Um, here's what really happened, though.
Xavier Roberts, uh, ripped off a lady. That's the easiest way to say it. There was a very, uh, kind-hearted, soft-spoken folk artist named Martha Nelson Thomas. Went to art school in the 70s. She experimented with the same exact German soft sculpture uh, molding, and she created what was called little doll babies. If you Google Martha Nelson Thomas little dolls and you see this very f now famous picture uh when it, you know, hasn't been swept under the rug by Xavier Roberts people and maybe Kico's people, this black and white picture of this woman surrounded by what are clearly and obviously Cabbage Patch kids.
Yes. And there's actually, funny enough, there's another famous picture of Xavier Roberts taken um probably about 10 years after that, and he's surrounded by straight up Cabbage Patch kids, you know, with the vinyl heads and everything. But that that the fact that that picture was taken of Martha Nelson to Nelson Thomas in 1975 is photographic documentary evidence that she is the person who came up with Cabbage Patch Kids. not Cabbage Patch Kids, but what Cabbage Patch Kids were based on. And if that were it, if that were the photo, if that was the only evidence whatsoever, you'd be like, "That's a I don't know. People can have similar ideas." You know, there's only one, you know, old German technique called needle molding. Other people could have found it. But that is not the only evidence. And in fact, Xavier Roberts has gone on public record saying that he was inspired by Martha Nelson
Thomas, but he changed it enough. But if you go and look at the actual story and the facts along the way, and there's actually a pretty good 16minute long Vice documentary on this whole thing,
um, that that you will see that it went way beyond him just being inspired by Martha Nelson Thomas's work. And in fact, like you said, he basically ripped her off.
Yeah. So, he um from what I could tell, and there's a bunch of different sort of versions of this uh online, but from what I saw is they actually did have an agreement early on that he would sell these for her. Uh he said, "Hey, these are great. Can I take some of these to my gift shops and um sell them for you, and I think I could sell a lot more than you could?" And for a little while, they did have an agreement, but uh as it turns out, he ended up marking them up and charging too much money. And she wasn't happy about that. She was like, "No, these shouldn't cost $40. It's, you know, it's 1978 for God's sake, and that's a doll."
Uh, and he's like, "Yeah, but what do you think this is? UniCoy State Park. They're handmade." And, uh, you know, you should put a value on on your talents. And they had a disagreement about that. And she said, "You know what? Forget it. I don't want you to sell these anymore." He follows up with a letter saying, "Well, you know what? if you don't let me sell your dolls, I'm he basically said, I'm just going to start making my own. And that's exactly what he did.
Supposedly, he wrote her a letter, and I don't remember who mentions it in the Vice documentary, but basically, they said that in the letter, he said, "If I can't sell your dolls, I will sell something just like them." And she apparently was like, "Whatever." And just went her own way. She was satisfied to have her dolls back. And probably thought she was done with the matter. And then supposedly one of her friends said, "Hey, I saw your little doll babies uh for sale at the Atlanta airport. Way to go." She said, "I'm not selling these at the Atlanta airport."
And apparently that's when she knew she had a big problem on her hands and found out that Xavier Roberts had come up with the Little People dolls um that were just the spitting image of her little doll babies.
Yeah. So she um filed a lawsuit that went on for for years. I think by the time they were selling out in stores in 1983, she was about 7 years into this lawsuit. And for her, it wasn't uh she asked for I think a million dollars. Uh but she said it wasn't about the money. She was like, I don't want to see this
um as a commodity and I don't want to be ripped off and I don't want this guy to come along and basically not have the same respect for these little dolls that I had. And if you look at the court case, you think, you know, open and shut. She's got this picture from 75. They had a prior relationship. She's got this letter uh that says where he basically says he's going to rip her off, but she didn't copyright these things. And you would have had to copyright because they were all handmade and they were all um I guess unique unto themselves. You would have had to copyright and sign or stamp each doll.
And she didn't want to do that and he had no problem doing it. cars. Little Chuck has an Xavier Roberts hand signature on his butt if you pull down his little corduroy shorts.
Yeah. It's one of the famous things about Cabbage Patch Kids, aside from their distinctive faces, is that each one of them has Xavier Robert's signature stamped onto its butt. And I guess Martha Nelson Thomas was like, there's no place to put a signature on a child. And these are like children to me. That's why I I adopt them out rather than sell them. Um, so I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to copyright them. that basically s you would think it would have sunk her case and after um almost eight years um Xavier Roberts finally said okay fine let's settle this I suspect it had to do with um he sold out at some point in the 80s he sold his his portion and I would guess he probably needed that court case to go away to finalize that sale and for whatever the reason in 1985 he was suddenly ready to settle And they settled for an undisclosed sum that apparently Martha Nelson Thomas was was
satisfied with. Yeah. And he also said, "Hey lady, you say you can't copyright these things, you can sign it right next to their little butthole,
right?" He sounded cochnney there for a second. Cocknney. Like I started to get nervous like, "Oh my god, why does he sound cochnney?" And then you pulled it out with the real Appalachia Mountain folk twist at the end there.
Yeah. So he uh he settled. it was enough money to put her kids through college. She said, uh, it's still sort of a sad story to me that, you know, that that this, you know, man came along and ripped off this lady's design and then later on complained that he was getting ripped off. He complained about knockoffs
and said, you know, my point is not not take my product and my creation and tarnish it.
Yeah. which was pretty audacious because he said this like you know I believe it right when he was settling with this other case in which a part of the settlement was he had to acknowledge that that he had taken her idea um and to for him to to be complaining about this on TV it was a little audacious especially if you know that you know the full story but the even though it was a open secret or even a widely known tale in the toy industry and in some parts of the press. Even still today, everybody thinks of Xavier Roberts as the the creator of Cabbage Patch Kids. And technically, he was um because he he came up with Cabbage Patch Kids and Martha Nelson Thomas came up with um Little Doll Babies.
Yeah. And he sold it to uh well, he didn't come up with Cabbage Patch Kids. He sold it to Pac-Man and Pac-Man named them Cabbage Patch Kids.
Yeah, I guess so. I hadn't thought about that. So, one of the groups he was complaining about was Topps Trading Cards. Topps Trading Cards around the the still in the height of the um Cabbage Patch Kid craze in 1985 came out with one of the greatest parodies anyone's ever come out with, the beloved Garbage Pale Kids series.
Yeah, I didn't uh I wasn't into these. I was a little too old. I certainly I was I was 14. And I certainly remember them in uh the Zeitgeist and I knew it was a very big deal. But this was probably more for kids probably around your age. I imagine you were probably into these, right?
I loved garbage pail kids. I believe you had a pretty impressive garbage pail kid collection herself, too.
Oh, really? Yeah. And she actually Yeah. She actually bought me a um a couple of garbage pail kids I have somewhere. Um I think one is Squash Josh. I can't remember the other one, but they are for people who don't know what a garbage pail kit is, go look up um gpk.com and I think it's like geek kay.com. I'm not sure, but um they have every single series scanned so you can see all 15 series that came out between 1985 and 1988. And they're just awesome. But they're basically like um if garbage if cabbage patch kids were meant to get us used to what mutant offspring of nuclear war survivors would look like. Um garbage pale kids were the mutated version of that.
Yeah, that's a good way to say it. They were they were deformed and they were plagued and diseased and
uh they had names like Adam Bomb and Bony Tony and I guess Squash Josh and uh Roommy Yumi. I don't know.
No, they they didn't they didn't have names for everyone, but um it was uh it was a big deal. They sold a ton of them and Xavier Roberts was was not happy with this and I think ended up um in the lawsuit being successful in getting them just to change enough to where it didn't look like it was officially tied to the Cabbage Patch Kids.
Yeah. Like they had the C, you know, where how it says like on the box for the Cabbage Patch Kid, it's like in a banner kind of like semicircle banner. They had that originally as Garbage Pail Kids. They had to turn that into a straight bar. They made them look less like lifelike and more like plastic dolls in the later series. There were a few changes, but I mean it was still pretty clear what the whole thing was a riff off of. But one thing I didn't realize is that one of the um art directors who helped conceptualize Garbage Pail Kids from the outset was Art Spiegelman who created Mouse.
Yeah. Did you know that? I I mean I've heard of Art Spiegelman, but I really don't know anything about him, so I didn't know that. But I know the name.
I've not read Mouse, but I know it's like it's like a like a just a legendary graphic novel um about fascism, but that guy helped create Garbage Pale Kids, just a couple years before he created Mouse.
Amazing. And there was a a bad TV show that eventually only aired in Europe. there was a bad movie. Uh that is was pretty legendarily bad. But um it it was a big deal though. They sold a ton of them. They didn't quite have the spin-off power
of uh the CPKs, but the GPK's did okay for themselves. Yeah. I mean, like that really goes to show you just how big Cabbage Patch Kids were that it could sustain a cottage industry for a parody even. That's how big Cabbage Patch Kids were in that. So, hats off to Cabbage Patch Kids. I can't wait to talk about them again next year in another episode.
That'll be great. We'll figure it out. We'll spend 2021 figuring out how to do that, Chuck. And in the meantime, everybody, since we're thinking about how to talk about Cabbage Patch Kids some more, it's time for listener mail. Uh, that's right. Before we do listener mail real quick, I just want to give a shout out to the Budge family. uh not really going to get into what's going on with them, but just want them to know that uh we're thinking about them and sending them lots of love and support over the internet airwaves. Uh but this email is called uh oh, I know. I'm going to call it the bee. Uh this is this is about beavers again. And it starts out as this is seriously not a please read me on the air email. And that's a pretty good way to get on the air, by the way. Uh thanks for the amazing show. Been a listener uh since they were poultry 20 minutes. Love everyone. You keep me company while
walking driving cleaning cooking and providing an endless source of interesting topics for my English students in Spain. Uh I kind of think Chuck is my podcast soulmate as we grow up in much the same circumstances around the same age. We have very similar cultural outlook on different things. Uh I do have a small difference of opinion though. Your Bigfoot podcast was great. Uh, and I was happy to hear you say the possibility exists. Did we say that? I guess.
Yeah. I think we were I I don't know if it was we so much as you. Yeah, maybe. So, uh, but a while back you were
I'm just teasing. I think it was we. You were adamant that Nessie does not exist. Buddy, show Nessie some love. Uh, wouldn't it be amazing if she did exist? Uh, so she has her fingers crossed on that. But the real reason she wrote in, she listened to the beaver episode and came across uh Bee the Beaver. So just get online and Google Bea. It was this beaver that was found um I think abandoned by its parents and then adopted as a young baby and then raised for a while to eventually be put maybe a wildlife center or something. But the long and short of it is Bee makes uh dams in their house. So, there are all these videos of Bee dragging stuff uh into this one specific doorway
that Bee is trying to dam up and like dragging a a shoe rack, uh pillows, um tissue boxes, like anything Bee can get a hold of in his little paws and teeth, he'll drag over to this doorway and try and dam up. And it's really one of the the cutest, funniest things I've ever seen. Yeah, it is very cute cuz he looks like should this go here or maybe a little bit to the left. Okay, that's all right there. Or like when he brought the pillow over, he's like, "Oh, this is very useful. I can just squish this into place." It was very cute to watch him do that.
It is amazing. And that email, by the way, was from Carrie Keley. Thanks, Carrie. That was a great email. And yes, way to get it on the air by saying it's not meant to be on the air. Um, we fall for stuff like that all the time. And if you want to try to make us fall for something, have at us. You can send us an email to stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Questions about this episode
Who speaks in "SYSK's 12 Days of Christmas… Toys: Cabbage Patch Kids: Must-Have Toy of the Century"?
Charles Wayne Bryant (Host), Charles W. Chuck Bryant (Host).
What is "SYSK's 12 Days of Christmas… Toys: Cabbage Patch Kids: Must-Have Toy of the Century" about?
The discussion centers on the iconic Cabbage Patch Kids, recognized as a quintessential Christmas toy and a cultural phenomenon. The hosts share personal anecdotes, including the joys and memories tied to owning these dolls, while reflecting on their enduring popularity and significance in holiday traditions.
What is mentioned in this Stuff You Should Know episode?
144 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Cabbage Patch Kids, Charles Wayne Bryant, Charles W. Chuck Bryant, Xavier Roberts. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.
How long is "SYSK's 12 Days of Christmas… Toys: Cabbage Patch Kids: Must-Have Toy of the Century"?
The episode runs 52 min; the transcript is about 9,613 words in 133 timestamped sections.
More from Stuff You Should Know
About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 9, 2026.