Episode 282

What this episode is about

In a chaotic family environment plagued by addiction and mental illness, 21-year-old Lauren Kukla struggles to maintain stability for her loved ones while confronting the rising tide of hidden dangers and emotional crises. As she navigates the overwhelming responsibilities of caregiving amid unspeakable secrets, the slow deterioration of her family's situation becomes increasingly perilous, forcing her to confront the boiling point of their collective turmoil.

Key takeaways

• Chaos teaches resilience: Surviving dysfunction, Lauren weaves normality amidst a family circus in Michigan.
• Monsters in our midst: True horror hides in plain sight, within our own homes.
• Frozen pipes and fiery tempers: One family's chilling reality underscores survival's complex choreography.
• Sibling rivalry turns sinister: Jealousy brews betrayal in this real-life familial thriller.
• Normalcy is relative: When chaos is background noise, the true danger goes unnoticed.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Lauren Kukla (Primary witness / sister of subject)

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Elizabeth Kukla, Jennifer Kukla, CPS, Lizzy
2. 10:00 – 20:00: trailer, cell phone, Jenny Kukla, Nick & Ari Ashley
3. 20:00 – 30:00: trailer, Lauren Kukla, cigarette, Alexa
4. 30:00 – 40:00: erase my brain / erase my memory, forensic exam, good cop, bad cop, Natural Ice beer
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Nick & Ari Ashley, Ashley Kukla, pet mouse, Alexa
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Nick & Ari Ashley, trailer, Ashley Kukla, Jennifer Kukla
7. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Jennifer Kukla, Michigan, TJ's, Dejenko
8. 1:10:00 – 1:13:36: This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me, This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me, This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me

Notable quotes from "Episode 282"

• In 2007, 21-year-old Lauren Kukla found herself shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional well-being. Though she had small children of her own, their needs.

  about Jennifer Kukla · at 3:43

• And had already lost custody of her children. and her sister, 30-year-old Jennifer or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings, was walking that same tightroppe.

  about Jenny Kukla · at 4:44

• They were going to call the CPS.

  about CPS · at 5:40

• Al was Jenny's boyfriend. He lived nearby and the two were still friends.

  about Al Vanderboss · at 7:57

• Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to pull something of a life together. She had full custody of her two young daughters, had a place for them to live, and worked as a manager.

  about McDonald · at 14:15

• Bedroom, they could see that tragically, Jenny was telling the truth about her kids. 8-year-old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to her 5-year-old sister, Ashley.

  about Alexa · at 29:21

• I had to chase Ashley. I follow Ashley.

  about Ashley Kukla · at 42:50

• All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show that's coming up is called This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me. I know it's a very long title.

  about This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me · at 1:10:30

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Jennifer Kukla — Person · Primary subject / defendant · 5 mentions · first at 0:12
  Central figure in the episode — the older sister who murdered her two children; much of the narrative and interviews focus on her actions, mental state, and trial.
• Jenny Kukla — Person · Alias / alternate mention of primary subject · 3 mentions · first at 4:48
  This is an alternate/short form used repeatedly in the transcript referring to Jennifer Kukla (same person).
• Nick & Ari Ashley — Person · Victim (child) in the case narrative · 11 mentions · first at 9:56
  Ashley is Jennifer's younger daughter; her death and attempted escape/hiding are described in the police interview recap, underscoring the tragedy and sequence of events.
  Bedroom, they could see that tragically, Jenny was telling the truth about her kids. 8-year-old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to her 5-year-old sister, Ashley.
• Lauren Kukla — Person · Primary witness / sister of subject · 4 mentions · first at 3:43
  Lauren is the sister who repeatedly helped and tried to care for Jennifer's children; she discovered the crime scene and is a key witness/interviewee in the episode.
  In 2007, 21-year-old Lauren Kukla found herself shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional well-being. Though she had small children of her own, their needs.
• Elizabeth Kukla — Person · Referenced family member (sister) · 3 mentions · first at 4:38
  Lauren and Jennifer’s sister (Lizzy) whose drug use and custody loss contextualize the family instability and CPS fears driving Jennifer’s paranoia.
  Her family lived a white picket fence kind of life compared to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her sister Elizabeth or Lizzy, was on drugs and had already lost…
• Al Vanderboss — Person · Boyfriend / associate of Jennifer · 2 mentions · first at 7:57
  Mentioned as Jenny's boyfriend/ex-boyfriend who helped fix the furnace and lived nearby; a minor but recurring character in the family's daily life.
• Keith Richards — Person · Referenced figure in family stories · 2 mentions · first at 58:12
  Mentioned in anecdotal family recollections (mother spoke fancifully about Keith Richards); cultural reference rather than participant in events.
  House, how Keith Richards was going to buy it and she was going to get married to him. She told me about this guy who was like a healer and like you know like she worked he lost the house.
• Alexa — Person · 11 mentions
• Elizabeth Kukla or Lowry — Person · 1 mention · first at 5:22
  He had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Kukla or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister and Lisa Fabry, the neighbor growing up as F A B R I had led her to believe that they were.
• Lisa Fabry — Person · 1 mention · first at 5:25
  He had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Kukla or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister and Lisa Fabry, the neighbor growing up as F A B R I had led her to believe that they were going to have her kids taken away.
• Shayna Jasmine — Person · 1 mention · first at 46:37
  The puppies? They were Jasmine and what was the other one? Sam.
• Jim Reel — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:00:52
  Life. So, like stuff like that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Reel, which I know was a boss at Dejenko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's where she…
• Angela's Dad — Person · 1 mention
• Dean Koontz — Person · 1 mention
• Lauren and Jennifer's natural father — Person · 1 mention
• Lauren's late schizophrenic mother — Person · 1 mention
• Lizzy — Person · 1 mention
• Muhammad Sim al — Person · 1 mention
• Princess Jenny — Person · 1 mention
• Stacy — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Dean Koontz books — Book · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

• CPS — Company · Referenced agency (child protective services) · 3 mentions · first at 5:40
  CPS (child protective services) figures in the narrative as the agency feared by Jennifer and referenced as a previous actor that had removed children from family members.
• McDonald — Company · Employer · 2 mentions · first at 8:08
  Jennifer worked as a manager at McDonald's, which is mentioned in the context of her employment and financial struggles.
• TJ's — Company · Referenced employer / local business · 1 mention · first at 1:00:58
  Mentioned as a place where Jennifer may have worked (TJ's, associated with Dejenko and Jim Reel) — used to illustrate memory lapses and alleged hypnosis claims.
  Life. So, like stuff like that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Reel, which I know was a boss at Dejenko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's where she…
• Dejenko — Company · Referenced company / local employer · 1 mention · first at 1:00:52
  Referenced in Lauren's recounting as an employer or local business connected to people Jennifer mentioned while describing memory lapses or alleged hypnotism.
  Life. So, like stuff like that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Reel, which I know was a boss at Dejenko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's where she…
• Sword and Scale — Company · 2 mentions · first at 0:00
  Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
• prison — Company · 2 mentions · first at 58:30
  Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said the other day that he was still in prison.
• Boost Mobile — Company · 1 mention · first at 18:21
  Asked her if that cell phone twice was hers cuz I knew she lost hers. But I know she had Boost Mobile and this was a Motorola. In fact, the phone is in my car right now. But I said, I don't know where that phone came from.
• Motorola — Company · 1 mention · first at 18:22
  Hers cuz I knew she lost hers. But I know she had Boost Mobile and this was a Motorola. In fact, the phone is in my car right now. But I said, I don't know where that phone came from.
• family restaurant — Company · 1 mention · first at 22:08
  Check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day, right after her shift at the local family restaurant.
• Sci-Fi Channel — Company · 1 mention · first at 35:34
  Yeah. I [snorts] mean, hell, my We used to watch a sci-fi channel all the time.
• Speedway — Company · 1 mention · first at 57:42
  Jenny telling me one time that she my mom pulled over the car right over on Romeo Plank near Speedway and she said, I'm going to drown this in our in my piss, and she pul she…
• Dejenko — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:00:55
  Was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Reel, which I know was a boss at Dejenko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's where she worked at a golf course for a couple years in the summer and stuff like that. She said that he.
• Slayer — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:03:50
  At least maybe she lived with that. She used to cut like I remember one time she cut slayer into her arm and I was like is that a band? she was into heavy metal and she's like…
• psychiatric facility — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:08:16
  They felt she should be found guilty by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility.
• jury — Company · 1 mention
• plus — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• cell phone — Product · 2 mentions · first at 18:15
  And she thought that's kind of weird to me because she thought we left the cell phone there, which I asked that asked her if that cell phone twice was hers cuz I knew she lost…
• station wagon — Product · 2 mentions · first at 19:26
  So we Jenny got in the back and I have a the third row seating station wagon. She got in the back with Lexa. And the first thing she said when she opened the back and I was already in the car and I actually was in I have a like a.
• cigarette — Product · 2 mentions · first at 26:07
  Yeah. And then she said, Can I have a cigarette? And that's when I took my first step into the door, into the actual house.
• butcher knife — Product · 2 mentions · first at 41:25
  First, Jennifer refused to give into the voices and follow through with the murders. Instead, she put the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to her own throat and considered killing herself.
• furnace — Product · 1 mention · first at 7:53
  Frozen. Everything worked. The heat worked and everything. Except the furnace broke the day before and AL came and fixed it that day.
• Bibles — Product · 1 mention · first at 15:18
  So, so you guys went to get Bibles.
• lighter — Product · 1 mention · first at 28:21
  I think she may have been smoking a cigarette cuz I gave her one. But and I gave her the lighter to use and then she gave it back to me. But I'm walking around the back of the…
• Natural Ice beer — Product · 1 mention · first at 38:00
  Usually by natural ice beer or whatever.
• pay phone — Product · 1 mention · first at 42:15
  Across the street to the pay phone to call my dad for some reason. Okay.
• red car — Product · 1 mention · first at 45:55
  Hell now and demons were going to come pick me up from the front of my house in a freaking red car with fingers and toenails with freaking seat covers and [ __ ] I don't know. It was [ __ ] freaky.
• kitchen knives — Product · 1 mention · first at 50:39
  Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay everyone in the trailer that morning. She ended her daughter's lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area, effectively severing their windpipes, as.
• toilet tank — Product · 1 mention · first at 56:45
  With no running water, though, she decided to take the lid off the toilet tank and use the water in there to rinse off before replacing her bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry. When Lauren came.
• crate — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

• trailer — Concept · 13 mentions · first at 7:33
  Three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being cared for properly, and the trailer they lived in was an absolute disaster, as you can imagine. To top it all off, they didn't even have running water.
• pet mouse — Concept · 4 mentions · first at 7:29
  Extra money she had on beer and all of her free time drinking it. The kids, three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being cared for properly, and the trailer they lived in…
• custody — Concept · 3 mentions · first at 4:44
  Sisters and two older brothers. Her sister Elizabeth or Lizzy, was on drugs and had already lost custody of her children. and her sister, 30-year-old Jennifer or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings, was walking that same tightroppe.
• paranoia — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 25:03
  More and more like her mother. She would ramble on about nonsensical things, have bouts of extreme paranoia, and just, act erratic. Now, Lauren could see a visual…
• adult themes and violence — Concept · 1 mention · first at 0:00
  Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
• listener discretion is advised — Concept · 1 mention · first at 0:05
  Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
• Season 2, Episode 282 — Concept · 1 mention · first at 0:28
  There's a new show coming, so stick around after the music and you'll find out more. This is season 2, episode 282 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real.
• proverbial frog sitting in a pot of water — Concept · 1 mention · first at 2:34
  Creeping darkness closing in. The familiar feels like survival until it's not. Like the proverbial frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat goes unnoticed.
• white picket fence kind of life — Concept · 1 mention · first at 4:32
  With conflict, Lauren's house was different. Though she was young, she and her family lived a white picket fence kind of life compared to her two older sisters and two older…
• pipes frozen — Concept · 1 mention · first at 7:41
  How long were the pipes frozen for?
• social worker — Concept · 1 mention · first at 9:19
  Deciding whether a home is safe for children. It looked like Jenny might actually get a visit from a social worker, and it wouldn't be the first time. CPS had taken her kids…
• forensic exam — Concept · 1 mention · first at 31:45
  You were very cooperative during the forensic exam, which we really appreciate. Nurses were very pleased with that.
• erase my brain / erase my memory — Concept · 1 mention · first at 32:14
  In case you couldn't understand her, at the end she said, Erase my brain. Erase my memory. And I'd love you for that one. We can only imagine what's in there.
• good cop, bad cop — Concept · 1 mention · first at 33:03
  Nervous that Jenny may decide not to talk. So, they started to employ a little bit of good cop, bad cop. Just before the one detective was able to follow through on his promise…
• severe mental illness — Concept · 1 mention · first at 34:42
  On psychiatric medicine. It's not often that we gain access to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe mental illness, but Jennifer's case is unique. We'll get back to that later.
• scary movies — Concept · 1 mention · first at 35:25
  Does this happen to you frequently that you dream about dead people or No, never. I watch freaking scary movies. None of that [ __ ] scares me.
• Pomeranian — Concept · 1 mention · first at 46:53
  I don't know. She's she was full Pomeranian. And I don't know what dad was. She just got pregnant.
• shrinks — Concept · 1 mention · first at 51:43
  You ever talked to anybody about it? Go see a doctor or I had a couple shrinks when I was a kid, but that's cuz I was getting molested and stuff, but my mom always stopped taking me and [ __ ] Okay. Did your mom have some.
• suicide attempts — Concept · 1 mention · first at 57:53
  Her pants down and she was going to drown her herself in the was multiple suicide attempts. You know what I'm saying? Not in front of me, but Jenny said, You guys are lucky you…
• hindsight is 2020 — Concept · 1 mention · first at 59:07
  Jennifer had said and done made so much more sense when compared to her mother's decline. But hindsight is 2020.
• hypnotism — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:00:29
  That it's in some way hello high in some way connected to the hypnotism.
• biker crews — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:00:42
  She didn't disclose that information to me. She said that she told Al that she knew biker crews like vigilantes or something. she that she didn't say vigilantes, but that's the…
• vigilantes — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:00:42
  She didn't disclose that information to me. She said that she told Al that she knew biker crews like vigilantes or something. she that she didn't say vigilantes, but that's the…
• heavy metal — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:03:52
  Used to cut like I remember one time she cut slayer into her arm and I was like is that a band? she was into heavy metal and she's like no and she's like I didn't even do this…
• counselor — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:04:05
  I can remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms and stuff like that and my mom would send her to the counselor but because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well and…
• bipolar schizophrenia — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:04:11
  But because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever she would take them out because in her mind counselors and stuff like…
• teachers — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:04:22
  That were bad you know police were good always police were good but counselors were bad teachers were bad. they didn't know what they were teaching you.
• Christ's bloodline — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:04:34
  They want us. She would say like we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's descendants. We're, all this stuff. And that's what I had to go around. I got past it. I'm working. I work through it. I.
• generational cycle of trauma — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:07:01
  It's not just a regret. It's the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle of trauma and mental illness.
• mental health services — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:07:42
  After living through that trauma, this same parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services.
• psychologist — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:08:00
  Jennifer Kukla went to trial for two counts of first-degree murder. Three separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore not criminally responsible.
• legally insane — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:08:03
  Counts of first-degree murder. Three separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore not criminally responsible.
• guilty by reason of insanity — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:08:11
  They felt she should be found guilty by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility.
• employer — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:08:33
  Interview compared to her psych interviews, and even witnessed testimony from her employer, who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her kids during a conversation…
• psychotic episode — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:08:46
  Late for work because of them. To top it off, even if Jennifer had been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law, if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not a defense.
• Michigan law — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:08:49
  Off, even if Jennifer had been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law, if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not a defense.
• parole — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:09:08
  Illness. She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the promise that she would receive at least some mental health care. The police…
• deputy — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:09:41
  Surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork, and even photos of them smiling with their mom. One deputy said this. You can only imagine their lifestyle. You could see…
• 2007 — Concept · 1 mention
• acid — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

• Michigan — Place · Setting · 3 mentions · first at 4:14
  The events occurred in Michigan (the transcript references specific localities), establishing jurisdiction and context for legal/trial details.
  Siblings, none of whom could seem to get their lives together for some reason. Conveniently, they all lived in the same area near Mcome, Michigan, and Lauren was stuck carrying…
• Scottish/Portland reference (Portland residents) — Place · Cultural aside/reference · 1 mention · first at 15:02
  Mentioned tangentially in a joke about residents and demographics; not related to the case itself.
  How would they know it's your 12th drink? On the other hand, if you have a needle hanging out of your arm like a lot of the residents of Portland, someone might actually call the cops on you. Probably not a Democrat, though.
• McCome, Michigan — Place · 1 mention · first at 4:14
  Their lives together for some reason. Conveniently, they all lived in the same area near Mcome, Michigan, and Lauren was stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years. Though…
• trailer park — Place · 1 mention · first at 10:24
  Al Vanderboss, which is the man where she was at. He lives in a trailer park as well. like they're all within their twob block radius. So I drove over there after I asked Russell. I asked Jessica if they wanted to make 10 bucks.
• Romeo Plank — Place · 1 mention · first at 57:42
  Jenny telling me one time that she my mom pulled over the car right over on Romeo Plank near Speedway and she said, I'm going to drown this in our in my piss, and she pul she…
• GOLF COURSE — Place · 1 mention · first at 1:01:00
  Dejenko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's where she worked at a golf course for a couple years in the summer and stuff like that. She said that he she wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she would go.

Media & podcasts

• Ashley Kukla — Character · Victim (child) · 3 mentions · first at 42:50
  5-year-old daughter of Jennifer (Ashley) — the second murdered child in the case; her death and the details are described during interviews.
• Alexa — Character · Victim (child) · 2 mentions · first at 29:27
  8-year-old daughter of Jennifer (Alexa) — one of the two murdered children; central to the tragic case recounted.
• Lizzy — Character · Sibling (sister Elizabeth) · 2 mentions · first at 4:38
  Elizabeth (Lizzy) is another sister with substance problems who had previously lost custody; referenced as part of the family dynamics that contextualize Jennifer's situation.
  Her family lived a white picket fence kind of life compared to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her sister Elizabeth or Lizzy, was on drugs and had already lost…

Sponsors

• This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me — Product · Podcast / promoted show · 1 mention · first at 1:11:01
  Promoted at the end of the episode as an upcoming show (host call-to-action to subscribe on Apple and Spotify).
• This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me — Media · Promoted show · 1 mention · first at 1:11:01
  A new show being promoted at the end of the podcast episode.
  All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show that's coming up is called This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me. I know it's a very long title.
• This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me — Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 1:11:01
  All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show that's coming up is called This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me. I know it's a very long title.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. She said, "I'm going to the deep ends of hell." And she said, "It's all over now and it's done."

0:24 There's a new show coming, so stick around after the music and uh you'll find out more. This is season 2, episode 282 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Well, I lied. Not about the show that's coming up. It is coming up, but about telling you about the show that's coming up. Because I'm not going to tell you anything. I'm going to keep it a secret this time. You're not going to find out a damn thing till it comes out March 3rd.

1:57 In a family where chaos reigns, it's easy to lose sight of the cracks forming beneath the surface. Born into a world of addiction, mental illness, and unspeakable secrets, one can grow so accustomed to the madness that it becomes invisible. Each day brings a new crisis, a new fire to put out. And amidst the smoke and shadows, it's impossible to notice the creeping darkness closing in. The familiar feels like survival until it's not. Like the proverbial frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat goes unnoticed.

2:41 There's too much to manage. Calming the parents paranoid delusions, steering a sibling away from another destructive path, trying to hold it all together. The storms are so familiar that they barely register anymore. And while tending to each fresh disaster, something far more dangerous is below. It's a slow, insidious bubbling. And before there's any time to escape, the water has reached a dangerous boil.

3:43 In 2007, 21-year-old Lauren Kukla found herself shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional well-being. Though she had small children of her own, their needs aren't what I'm talking about here. Lauren was not only caring for her immediate household, but also managing the endless conflicts between her late schizophrenic mother and her four older siblings, none of whom could seem to get their lives together for some reason. Conveniently, they all lived in the same area near Mcome, Michigan, and Lauren was stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years. Though her siblings houses were chaotic, messy, and filled with conflict, Lauren's house was different. Though she was young, she and her family lived a white picket fence kind of life compared to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her sister Elizabeth or Lizzy, was on drugs and had already lost custody of her

4:46 children. and her sister, 30-year-old Jennifer or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings, was walking that same tightroppe. How Lauren turned out to be a normal functioning member of society after growing up in a household like this is really a mystery. On Saturday, February 3rd, 2007, all while trying to juggle her career and her young children's needs, Lauren got a call from Jenny. As usual, her oldest sister was having a meltdown and needed help.

5:19 He had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Kukla or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister and Lisa Fabry, the neighbor growing up as F A B R I had led her to believe that they were going to have her kids taken away. They were going to call the CPS. As far as I know at that time, that was a a truthful statement. Lizzie denied it when I went to her to her place of employment later. But at that time, I could see her saying something like that because she said it to me before plenty of times in the past couple years. She said she hates Jenny. She she wishes she would just clean up her act and blah blah blah. Um, whatever.

6:05 because Lizzie got her kids taken away and she thought that she was fighting for them, but she wasn't fighting for them because she was always doing crack and [ __ ] like that. So, she wasn't really working at it, but she wanted anybody to blame that she could.

6:17 So, now she wants I I could see her wanting some kind of revenge or wanting Jenny to feel the same pain as her.

6:23 Lizzy wasn't threatening to report Jenny to CPS because she was genuinely concerned about her nieces. She just hated her sister and wanted to see Jenny lose her kids, too. Nice. Right.

6:36 You could hear that she was afraid that her kids may be taken away. She wanted to make sure that they were, you know,

6:43 you believe she sounded intoxicated at the time? No. I didn't I didn't hear. I mean, Jenny was an alcoholic as is, so I I couldn't tell the difference either way. You know what I mean? I would She wasn't stupid drunk by that time.

6:58 Okay. Um, so when she called, I I know that she she you could tell that she just wanted to make sure that the girls were I mean that the house was taken care of because she did not want to lose her kids. She was concerned.

7:12 The whole family knew Jenny was an alcoholic, but her habits had gotten worse over the prior months. Finances were tight, and she was spending any extra money she had on beer and all of her free time drinking it. The kids, three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being cared for properly, and the trailer they lived in was an absolute disaster, as you can imagine. To top it all off, they didn't even have running water.

7:41 How long were the pipes frozen for? She had said something to me on Thursday about it.

7:48 So, just a few days. Yeah. And frozen or just shut up? Frozen. Everything worked. The heat worked and everything. Except the furnace broke the day before and AL came and fixed it that day. Al was Jenny's boyfriend. He lived nearby and the two were still friends.

8:04 They were waiting. Did your sister maintain that trailer on her own with what he came out from McDonald's?

8:08 Yes, for the most part. Yeah. She kept the heat on and kept the water. There was I think there was one time in the the spring that she had her gas turned off and she called me. It was after it was it was fall because my mom had already passed away. She called me and she said she said, "You got to call grandma." And now I'm the go between between grandma because I took it upon myself to make sure everything was, you know, taken care of with my mama and taken care of with grandma. Everybody kind of looked at me as the one who would help them if they needed something from grandma. So she asked me, "I need money for rent. I need money to fix the car. I need money to get my license back. I need money to, you know, all this stuff." And all I could think was, "Jenny, you got to get clean. You're drinking." You know, we're not I I can help you. And grandma goes, "I wish I didn't give her a lecture." I said, "You

8:50 have to give her a lecture every time. otherwise she doesn't know how you feel very well. I said, "Well, then this is your fault." You know, and um I just she did have it shut off a couple times, but not to the extent where the girls didn't have anywhere else to go or, you know, couldn't take care of themselves and stuff. And they always had food in the fridge and stuff like that. So,

9:09 unfortunately, food in the fridge is not the only criteria CPS looks for when deciding whether a home is safe for children. It looked like Jenny might actually get a visit from a social worker, and it wouldn't be the first time. CPS had taken her kids before, but she knew that if it happened again, she might not be able to get them back. Lauren didn't want to be at her family's beck and call. She knew Jenny's situation was largely because of her own unwillingness to get help for her alcoholism and whatever else was going on in her drama-filled life. Her chief concern were her two nieces, Jenny's 8-year-old daughter, Alexa, apologies if I just activated your devices at home, and 5-year-old daughter Ashley.

10:00 So Lauren, the family crisis manager that she was, gathered some friends, a guy named Russell and a woman named Jessica. She offered them 10 bucks for their time and drove them over to her sister's house to help her clean it up.

10:15 So um then I went to Al's house to pick her up and she You went to who? Al Vanderboss, which is the man where where she was at. He lives in a trailer park as well. like they're all within their twob block radius. So I drove over there after I asked Russell. I asked Jessica if they wanted to make 10 bucks. I asked Stacy, too, but she said she didn't want to go in that house cuz, you know, it was too dirty. She wanted to deal with it.

10:40 Okay. So, you picked up Jenny and the two kids. Yeah. No, I picked up Jennifer home. The kids stayed there with a Russell or Jessica in the car with me.

10:51 Okay. So, you picked up Jennifer at what's his last name? Vander. Vander Boss. I think it's in the statement. I think Vander boss I'm not sure.

11:00 Vander boss and um is that her is she boyfriend just ex-boyfriend still friends kind of thing

11:07 of Janet right? Yeah. Okay. Uh kids kids are lost there. Yeah. [snorts] Uh she got in the car. She was acting fine. She just said, you know, let's go right now. We'll get this done. I said, okay, then. You know, we have a couple hours or whatever. We'll get it done. She was she was upset. I remember her saying something. She was upset because she thinks Lisa and Lizzie were going to call.

11:31 Where did she get that information? She said that when she was over at Elizabeth's house earlier that day, she was on the phone with Lisa and Lisa had told her something that triggered a memory of how it's possible that she may have been hypnotized into being a bad person and that like

11:53 who was hypnotized? Jennifer was she said that she Lisa said something that triggered a memory of some kind into her realizing that she may have been hypnotized during her teenage years.

12:07 Jenny was probably grasping at straws, trying to find reasons why her life turned out as terribly as it did and why she couldn't seem to be a good parent like her little sister Lauren. Gee, I wonder why. being, you know, hypnotized is an answer that takes the blame off of Jenny herself. It's one of the things that alcoholics do. Just trust me on that. Though she wasn't actually hypnotized, Jenny hadn't had an easy life. Sure, her situation was a result of her own decisions, but decisions are often influenced by past experiences. And Jenny's life had been rather traumatic.

12:52 Jenny always had problems. She believed that she was worthless. She believed, I mean, she was raped and everything else. Her mom didn't take care of her. You know, her like our mom was on meds a lot. And she probably thought, you know, for some reason I'm not being taken care of because, you know, my mom brought this horrible man into her life. You know what I mean? Like she just she just kept getting different kinds of thoughts about that. So, um,

13:20 when, uh, back to you told me the other day you're your natural father was convicted of, uh, rape of Jennifer. Um, at what

13:30 at what age? Like how old? I think it was over a long period of time. I think from like 12 to 15.

13:37 12 to 15. She was molested from Joseph, her father's brother, Robert. uh he was mentally impaired and she told me that he molested her as well growing up the younger ages. Um that the neighbor at the residence that I live in now, one of the old neighbors that live there, like their nephew or something, molested her as well. Um she was raped just I mean walking down the street kind of thing. She told me before my other sister I remember she was raped. She got puckled into a van and raped. They had a pretty rough summer.

14:15 Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to pull something of a life together. She had full custody of her two young daughters, had a place for them to live, and worked as a manager for McDonald's. She wasn't addicted to hard drugs like her sister Lizzy. But alcoholism can be more difficult to beat because it's normalized in society. I mean, try going out. Just going out on the weekend. Try to do something and not be around alcohol. It's impossible. Plus, you know, no one gives you a side eye if they see you sipping on a can of beer.

14:56 How would they know it's your 12th drink? On the other hand, if you have a needle hanging out of your arm like uh a lot of the residents of Portland, someone might actually call the cops on you. Probably not a Democrat, though. Anyways, Lauren, Jenny, and their posi of helpers arrived at the trailer and got to work.

15:17 So, um, so you guys you guys went to get Bibles. Now, the whole time the kids weren't here.

15:22 No, the whole time the kids were at Al's house. And Jenny told me, "Go pick up some more beer from Al's and bring it back before you go to the store." And we went to Al's house and I grabbed the beers and we How many beers did you grab?

15:32 Seven or eight. Okay. And how many you guys were having some before that? I didn't have any. They didn't have any. She Al had said that she had some before.

15:41 Okay. And uh I don't really know. And she had some at her house, too. And she drank a couple while we were cleaning for the first like hour and a half or whatnot. We went to return all the bottles that she had. I mean, she had some in her shed. She had them in her sink. She had them all over the house. So we were trying to clear the clutter, make some money for garbage bags, light bulbs, water cuz our pipes were frozen so we could, you know, heat it up or wash whatever. And um so we went to the store, we came back and we just continued to clean and we were still when you came back.

16:09 Yep. All alone. Like I said, we had forgotten to bring her that beer. So she was really happy when we got back cuz she had her beer again. She's like, "I'm going to sit. Make sure you get some." We brought her some more beer. And um at that time we just finished up cleaning. Jessica was um getting lazy playing with the dogs or whatever. And then me and Russell were in the girls bedroom finishing out vacuuming and stuff. And then I went and did the bathroom myself and did the me and Russell did the back bedroom and Jenny was doing the kitchen and the dishes and stuff trying to get everything out of the kitchen.

16:41 At this point, Jenny was becoming more paranoid with each beer. After the others left, Jenny confided in her sister that she feared they too would call CPS on her since they had seen the state of the house firsthand.

16:57 Jessica might know because I know she Jenny was afraid that Jessica was going to call the CPS because of something that she said, which I don't know what she said. I have no idea. She's like, she's like, you know, they're going to call, you know, they probably think I'm, you know, a horrible mom and all this stuff and I don't know.

17:11 Jessica was afraid Jessica was going to call. Yeah, she was afraid Russell and Jessica were going to call, too. I said, "Why would they do that when they were here helping us?" You know, and

17:20 she was afraid that they were going to do something, too. So, I'm like, did they did either Russell or Jessica at all?

17:26 Never. What a mess. We better call CPS. No, they in fact in the car when we were going to Al's house and I told her that that she was afraid. She goes, she told me not to tell you guys, but I was like, you you're not going to call CPS, right? And Jessica's like, no, you know, I'm taken away from my mom, too. You know, she's like, you know, I got taken away from my mom, too. And, you know, I would never do that to you. And you know, I want to help these kids.

17:45 This was on the way to Wales. Mhm. To pick up the girl, she was telling me this stuff. And Jenny had told me right before we left, like they were getting in the car and she was like, "Just make sure they don't call Lauren." And I think she was really fearful that they would call.

17:58 So you guys left to go get the girls? Yeah. And brought the girls back. We were We left to go get the girls and I helped them start getting ready and all of a sudden Jenny showed up.

18:08 Yeah. How'd she get there? She ran. She That's two streets away. And she she thought that's kind of weird to me because she thought we left the cell phone there, which I asked that asked her if that cell phone twice was hers cuz I knew she lost hers. But I know she had Boost Mobile and this was a a Motorola. In fact, the phone is in my car right now. But um I said, you know, I don't know where that phone came from. And she's like I was like, I moved it. I put it on the on the end table like three three times. I even asked you if it was yours. And she's like, oh, okay.

18:35 Yeah. But why would she went over there right back? It's possible. I I didn't turn it on or anything. It doesn't turn on, but I'm sure it works. But, um, I it just seemed it strikes me as odd that she would run all the way over there even though we were taking the kids back there. You know what I'm saying?

18:51 So, just to summarize all that, Lauren and the others left Jenny at the trailer while they went to pick up Jenny's two daughters, Alexa and Ashley. Jenny must have been suspicious that they were conspiring against her to help CPS take away the kids and literally ran several blocks to the house the girls were staying at under the guise of returning a cell phone.

19:13 So I think that she was even fearful at that time that I would try to take the kids and um which I don't understand but whatever. So we Jenny got in the back and I have a the third row seating station wagon. She got in the back with Lexa. And the first thing she said when she opened the back and I was already in the car and I actually was in um I have a like a booster seat for her. This was big enough for my daughter and big enough for her. And um she's like, "Len, why would you ask Lexa if she does if she even liked me?" I'm like, "I didn't say that." And I was like, "Lexa, did you ask her that? Like I was being calm with Lexi, like how you talk to kids, you know?" And she's like, she's just quiet, you know? She didn't say anything. And then she's like, Jenny goes, "Are you lying, Lexa?" And you know, not angry.

19:58 Not angry. she was more concerned for, you know, why she would lie to her. And um and I said, "Jenny, I didn't say that." And I I I said, "I talked to him earlier this week when they were at my house." And I said that, you know, mama tries her boss, you know, and that was the end of the conversation. And we drove home and the kids were just

20:16 What about did did Lexa actually ask her? No, I wasn't. I mean, I got into the car.

20:21 There was never an answer to the question cuz you asked her. She never answered the question.

20:25 Jenny asked her and Lexa never answered. She never answered the question, but I know she was quiet. And Lexa had a tendency to do stuff like that, just kind of tattle or like say, you know, mix up the words or something. And then Jenny would get not upset, but she would get like like why why you have to you have to lie [snorts] to me kind of thing, you know. And um so we drove home, everything was fine, and we were, you know, I had the radio on, whatever, but she opened the door and she went in and then the girls, you know, they went in right ahead of me. I don't know how we got mixed up, but anyway. And I was like, "No, stop." Cuz they weren't taking out their shoes and stuff. I was showing them where to take out their shoes and put their coats and stuff, you know. And I said, they're like, "Wow."

21:02 And they're looking around. They're all excited cuz the house is so much cleaner than it was before. Like literally 300 times better, right?

21:08 And um I mean, even they probably weren't used to having a place to hang their coats and shoes. They weren't used to

21:14 And they so I don't want to cry, but they so bad to have that kind of home that home. And when they were at my house and stuff, they knew they knew the difference. They were playing with my kids on on uh Thursday night. They love it. You know, I was teaching her how to wash from top to bottom in the bath kind of thing. You know, you you have to rinse it all out. L I was in there, you know, washing my brushing my teeth and stuff. I was like, you got to get ready for bed. You have to, you know, I was just thinking to my head, how does she not know this stuff at, you know, almost 9 years old and she doesn't know how to take care of her own body

21:40 water? I guess we're not. Well, I mean, yeah, I know the frozen pipes, but other than that, I mean,

21:46 other than the frozen pipes, the group had successfully gotten the trailer up to par. Lauren thought she'd fixed the problem. Surely Jenny had no reason to be concerned anymore. Lauren went home that night to take care of her own household and planned to check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day, right after her shift at the local family restaurant. She expected to see Jenny lounging around, enjoying the day with her girls in their newly cleaned trailer. Lauren certainly hadn't pictured herself dialing 911.

22:58 21-year-old Lauren Kukla had just cleaned up another family crisis. One of her sisters, Lizzy, had already lost custody of her children, and her oldest sister, Jennifer, was about to meet the same fate. That was until Lauren rallied a group together to help Jennifer tidy up her house in preparation for a CPS visit. The next day, Sunday, February 4th, Lauren planned to drive over and check in on her sister, but she was wholly unprepared for what she'd find.

23:29 You worked what time? Like, 11 or 10? I worked from 10:00. I was there at 9:50 to all the way to 5:00. 5:15.

23:38 After work, Lauren picked up her kids and drove over to Jenny's trailer to check in. When she got there, the front door was hanging open. This immediately struck Lauren as odd. After all, it was winter in Michigan.

23:55 I I pulled up. I walked up, you know, I called the name because the door was open, like I said.

23:59 So, you called her name. I called her name and I was on the phone with my friend Jason at the time telling him all about how, you know, how my sister was being annoying. I sniped or whatever, you know, and how she's pissing me off. So, I'm going over there right now to see if she can find her phone in my car or whatever. And um he's like I'm like okay hold on one second because the door's open and all the lights are off. He's like okay. And then I call her name and then he was I was like okay anyway I'll you know I'll call you later. I hung out with him and then Jenny comes to the door dressed like a hobo and like in a skirt and jeans and sweaters and whatever. I don't know. I don't even know exactly what her tops were but I know jeans and a khaki skirt were on the bottom and was thinking that was really weird. And that's how our mom used to dress sometimes when she was being stupid.

24:43 What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid is that her mother used to layer odd, unmatching pieces of clothing during bad mental health episodes. Increasingly, Jenny was starting to act more and more like her mother. She would ramble on about nonsensical things, have bouts of extreme paranoia, and just, you know, act erratic. Now, Lauren could see a visual representation of the transformation that had been taking place for years as Jenny's mental health quietly declined. She had a khaki shirt layered over a pair of jeans. Her hair was disheveled, and like Lauren said, she looked like a homeless person. Anyway, so I go out for the door. I lock the kids in the car. You know, I'm planning on just stopping at the door saying, you know, let's go out to eat or whatever. I did pretty good at work. I was going to say, let's find your phone and do whatever we got to do today.

25:40 I noticed first thing that the dogs didn't run up to me or run outside or where the hell were the dogs. I know. I know the door was open, but usually they're looking at visual, you know, I don't know where they are. So, I didn't hear any barking. And I go, where are the girls? Cuz usually they at least have a TV on or something or the radio on. She said,

25:58 "You air out of it." I was in the door. Literally in the doorway. And so you stood in the door. You didn't actually go in.

26:04 Yep. I stood kind of maybe. Yeah. And then she said, "Can I have a cigarette?" And that's when I took my first step into the door, you know, into the actual house.

26:11 Give her a cigarette. She asked for a cigarette. And then I noticed it was too quiet. I said, "Where'd it get?" She said, she standing back towards the kitchen table where we were sitting the night before there in the corner. And she said, "I killed him." And I said, "No." She said, "I'm going to the D." All I said was no

26:29 pretty. I mean, I don't remember if I said anything else, but I just said no. And not not like no, like no, you know, like it was like no, you know,

26:37 and and she said, "I'm going to the deep end of hell." And she said it's all over now and it's done. And that was She wasn't looking at me. She was looking at the ground and it was Clay's face again. And And it was monotone voice, too. And it is done like that. Like it is done. And then she goes, "I'm going." And then she looked up and she goes, "You have to call the police on me, Lauren." And I said, "Okay." I said, "But show me how you tried to kill yourself." And soon as she showed me the wrist, I had already backed up enough to where I was out when I was out the door at the doorway again.

27:14 And she showed it to me and I was on the porch by that, like I took another step back and I was on the porch or the deck or whatever. And I was starting to go, "Okay, Jen, you stay here. Can you come?" And that's when I mean I was like, you know,

27:28 hit 911. Yeah. Before her police interview, investigators hoped that allowing Lauren to listen to her own 911 call over again would jog her memory and help them piece together what was going through Jenny's mind.

27:44 While like I mean, if you could listen to it right now, I was really calm in the beginning because I had still outside of the car when I called. And Jenny was like, "Are you calling?" And I said I wanted to say no because I didn't know I was fearful for my kids in the car and for myself. But I was walking around to get the address from the car. You know,

28:01 you like in the driveway or on the streets. I I walked around the back of the car cuz I'm thinking I'm looking in the car after cuz she showed me a wrist. I'm looking in the car for anything that I could grab out. You know what I'm saying? If she [ __ ] comes after me, I don't know. And I'm And then I walk up like I have her hands there for nothing like that.

28:17 I think she may have been smoking a cigarette cuz I gave her one. But um and I gave her the lighter to use and then she gave it back to me. But um I'm walking around the back of the car, standing behind the station wagon thinking that's the safest place if I have to run cuz I know my car is locked and I have the keys in my pocket. So I'm standing back there and I'm saying yes, Jennifer. I'm calling, you know, whatever. I started on the dispatch. I told them, you know, I don't know what's going on. I I know. And then they're like, man, you have, you know, you have to tell us. And I'm thinking, you know, what what is there to I couldn't even fathom. What am I supposed to say? you know, and I remember telling them that yeah, she harmed herself and she said that she killed her kids.

28:56 When police arrived at the scene and entered the trailer, they found Jenny pacing around, ready to be taken to the quote depths of hell. Their eyes were quickly drawn to the first bloody scene. Three dead dogs piled up inside a crate. Jenny hadn't stopped there. She even stabbed the pet mouse inside its cage. As officers made their way to the back bedroom, they could see that tragically, Jenny was telling the truth about her kids. 8-year-old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to her 5-year-old sister, Ashley.

29:36 Their throats had been cut. Jennifer, you know Mark, right? You've been talking to him. Like I said, I'm Dave. We both work here for the sheriff's office. Okay. We want to talk to you about what's going on. Okay. Before we do that, can you look at me while we're talking? Put your hair out of your face so I can see it. There you go. Look at me. There you go. Before we do that, hey, maintain eye contact with me. Okay. Before we do that, we have to read you your rights. Okay? You know what those are. You've heard about them. You see them on TV.

30:08 All right. I'm going to read them to you. Okay. Exactly. Is there on the list here? All right. And then we're done. I'd like you to sign them. Okay. And then we can talk. But we can't talk until we do that. All right. Are you cold?

30:22 I don't want to talk about it. Are you just nervous? I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it.

30:28 Okay. Let me just read you your rights here. Okay. Now, you have the right to remain silent.

30:33 First of all, Jennifer. Okay. Take a deep breath. Okay. Get a hold of yourself. All right. Get a hold of yourself. All right. I know you're upset and you got every right to be. Okay. We have to go through this. All right.

30:49 Okay. You understand all those? Yes. Okay. And then the last question is let me see. I want to talk about it. Oh,

30:59 let me finish this. Sir, I've read the state. I have read these statements of my rights. I understand what my rights are. I'm willing to make a statement, answer questions. I do not want a lawyer at this time. I understand and know what I'm doing. No promises or threats been made to me. No pressure or coercion of any kind have been used against me. Okay. Do you understand that?

31:17 Okay. All that. Knowing all that, you want to talk to us right now? I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it.

31:23 Okay. Okay. Jennifer, is it because you want to talk to an attorney or is it I don't even want to think about it. [clears throat]

31:31 We just want to get a couple things straight to make sure uh we got everything we got everything right. Okay. So, we don't want to get everything anything wrong.

31:37 Okay. If you want to talk to an attorney, that's one thing, but if you just if you're just a little nervous about it, maybe we can work that out.

31:43 You were very cooperative during the uh the forensic exam, which we really appreciate. Nurses were very pleased with that.

31:50 Are you cold? No, I just don't want to talk about it. You want a blanket? No. Get you a blanket or you know, erase my brain. If you erase my memory, then I'd love you for that one. Okay, sit tight here for a minute.

32:12 In case you couldn't understand her, at the end she said, "Erase my brain. Erase my memory." And I'd love you for that one. We can only imagine what's in there. Do you understand what we're trying to do here? You know, like I said, if you want attorney or or something like that, I can understand it. But just try to set something down. I'm just I'm just talking to you. not, you know, [snorts and clears throat]

32:36 we just want to make sure we got things right. We want to make sure we got them understood. We don't want to make any mistakes.

32:41 That's why we want to talk to you. I don't want to course I don't want to talk you into talking if you if you want to talk to attorney. But if you're just a little nervous, we can wait. We can get you some water. You know, just relax a little bit. Okay. Get your blanket. It is cold in there. I'm even cold in there.

32:56 It's clear that these guys were getting nervous that Jenny may decide not to talk. So, they started to employ a little bit of uh good cop, bad cop. Just before the one detective was able to follow through on his promise of some water and a blanket, the other came bursting back into the room.

33:15 What do you think about that? Want to sit and think about it with a little bit of water and a blanket?

33:20 Maybe some water. Okay. Well, let me get you some water. All right. You don't want to talk to us? Is that right? You not want to talk to us? I I don't want to really talk about it, but you can ask me something. I can see if I can answer it with I don't I can't crap.

33:35 Okay, stand up then. Please back. I take you back. They took her back to her cell and plan to try again the next day.

33:46 Can we just reiterate yesterday you said you didn't want to talk to us because uh you you uh just weren't up to us to talk.

33:53 Today you want to talk to us, [snorts] Jennifer? Mhm. today. You do want to talk to us without a lawyer present. It

34:01 doesn't matter. Okay. When you say it doesn't matter, that means you want to talk to us. Okay.

34:12 Give me the broken pair. Yeah. It doesn't want to come off. Try this one first.

34:17 Jennifer, you take any kind of medication normally? No. At all? Nothing? No. Okay. Nothing for any type of uh uh psychiatric or nothing for any type of physical. Okay.

34:30 Once Jennifer really starts to open up to detectives in this interview, it's clear that she absolutely needed to be on psychiatric medicine. It's not often that we gain access to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe mental illness, but Jennifer's case is unique. We'll get back to that later.

34:50 Well, what do you want to uh No. Um, I don't know. Well, we know why we're here, right?

34:57 Yeah. Okay. We know what happened. You know what happened, right? The big question is why? And that's why we want

35:04 I don't know. I I really don't [ __ ] know. It's like the night before or two nights before that or whatever. I just stay up all night long. I kept every time I close my eyes, I keep having these like bad dreams of like dead people or whatever and blah blah blah. And I'm like, well, what the hell? This is just weird. So, I freaking didn't even think about that.

35:22 Does this happen to you frequently that you dream about dead people or No, never. I watch freaking scary movies. None of that [ __ ] scares me.

35:28 First time you've ever had this type of thing. Okay. Yeah. I [snorts] mean, hell, my We used to watch a sci-fi channel all the time.

35:36 But anyway, so I was like up all night for that. No big deal. Woke up the next day. No big deal. No problems with nothing.

35:43 Would that have been What day would that have been? I don't remember. I don't even know what day it is right now. Today's Monday.

35:50 When did I get here? Yesterday was Sunday. Okay. So, this would have been Saturday morning. Everything was fine. [snorts] And then all of a sudden, my sister was there. My sister Lauren. She's the one who calls you guys.

36:00 Right. She was at my house. And all of a sudden, I used to it was like I kept freaking hearing this like voice in my head telling me all this [ __ ] She's like, "Jenny, stop talking to Stop listening to the voice or whatever the hell you're doing. Stop doing it." And then she

36:11 How did she know you were listening to the voice? I was telling her what it was [ __ ] saying and [ __ ] No, it was Saturday morning. No, if I got here Sunday, that would have been Saturday afternoon.

36:22 Now, keep in mind, the average person would probably freak out upon hearing their sibling talking to themselves as if they're having a conversation. But for Lauren, this was nothing new. She was no stranger to brushing off the nonsensical ramblings. She even said to Jenny, "Stop talking to those voices or whatever it is that you're doing." In Lauren's sane mind, addressing her older sister's mental illness was at the bottom of the list of priorities. When Jenny's pipes froze and the trailer descended into chaos, Lauren's first concern was the safety of her nieces.

37:02 Basically, she thought, "Okay, Jenny isn't a danger to herself or them. She's made it this far in life. Let's just deal with the issues that we can fix right now." which, you know, makes a lot of sense.

37:17 And what did you guys do? Were you guys picking things up around the house? Yeah, they were helping me clean up my house and [ __ ]

37:21 Okay. I've been I've been I'll admit I've been drinking way too much and my house was a sigh.

37:26 What were you guys cleaning it for? She said I was afraid was going to get called. I was going to lose my kids. The house was that bad. I mean, it had to be cleaned up. So, they came over to help me clean it up. And freaking I was going to My sister paid them 10 bucks a piece to help me that day. And I was going to pay her back the money cuz I was broke. Did um were you drinking when they were there?

37:48 I had a couple of beers when they were there. And how often do you drink? You said you've been drinking a lot lately. And how much?

37:52 Like every day. Maybe about like a 12-pack a day. But I was cutting. I was trying. No, between a six to a 12-pack day.

37:59 Okay. Usually by natural ice beer or whatever. But she they were help they came over and they were helping me out of that. And I just started freaking out. And then after they left is when freaking I started actually Do you hear voices when you drink?

38:14 No, I don't think I've ever had that happen to me ever in my entire life. It It was just like somebody's freaking right in my [ __ ] head. And it it wasn't even like hearing hearing voices. I could hear it and it was like I was reading it at the same time. If that makes any sense.

38:28 It wasn't weird [ __ ] Go to this part of the house. Go to that part of the house. Go to this part of the house. Go to that part of the house. And it was like all nice and sweet at first and then freaking it started getting freaking weird and then it just freaking got evil. the freaking demon telling me and then I freaking started listening to it I guess cuz then I freaking started taking the it started saying something about freaking people being outside ready to come in and kill us and all this weird [ __ ] and that freaking I'd have to do this or that if I don't want my kids to die to do this or that and then freaking after like freaking probably about half an hour hour of that freaking I finally freaking told me to get my kids already and take them down the street to their friend's house so that they wouldn't die that night and then halfway there it said take them back home cuz they they're already

39:01 killed at that house and did you did you actually take them down the street? Yeah, I did. All of what Jenny is recounting to police had happened after her sister Lauren left that night.

39:12 I'm still confused. I'm still just like figuring this out. It was like, "What the hell, man? What did I do?" Freaking I actually freaking did that. Oh, it gets weirder. This gets really weirder. Freaking that all that happens. And then, okay, fine. Get back in the house. I'm like, "Well, what the hell?" You know, this is just freaking

39:25 Why did you turn back? Cuz the voice told me to whatever it was told me to and freaking not to go down there because they were already dead and blah blah. And then told me to go back to the house and I said, "Well, check in the morning cuz then you'll find out they're not dead." And don't go over there now. And then blah blah blah. And back and forth and back and forth and kept saying stuff about how people would come over in there and kill me. And I'd never finally broke in the house. And

39:45 so you returned to the house with the girls cuz the voice tells you and it went back and forth. And then it like got nicer again. And it was like, "Well, you have to do this and you have to do that. You know, this for your girls to make them nice and you got to take care of your kids and blah blah blah blah." And then it started getting evil again.

39:58 Were Were you going to put the girls to bed? Yes, I did. Were they sleeping on the floor?

40:03 So we we were going all sleep together on the bed cuz it was like what would I whatever. And then this voice is telling me all this weird [ __ ] So we cuz we haven't done this in years cuz I usually sleep on the couch. But then we were going to freaking sleep on the bed. So freaking we made up the bed on the floor in the girls' room and freaking we were going to lay down. I actually laid down in the middle of them. Less was on this side of me and I had my arm around her. I was I was rubbing her head. Ashley was on this side and I was the same thing with her and we were going to sleep like that. We're all like, "Oh, I love you lot. Have good dreams." Blah blah blah and blah blah blah. And it was all good like that. And then freaking I got up and the voice started talking to me again and freaking telling me this [ __ ]

40:33 The girls asleep at that point when you got up. Yeah. Okay. And freaking I actually went in the apartment. I had to bush a knife up my neck and I didn't do that. And then freaking the voice telling me to do this or that. Then it's telling me to go kill my kids before the people break into my house to kill them and hurt them even worse than what they were going what would have happened or whatever. Just kill them so that it doesn't happen. And I wasn't going to do it. I was just sitting there going listening with a freaking knife in my hand going oh my god. Oh my god. Oh god. If anybody walks in here, [ __ ] [ __ ] So, the voices in Jennifer's head were apparently telling her that if she didn't kill her kids, people would break into her house, take them away from her, and they'd suffer a fate far worse than death, whatever that is. At this point, she had long stopped drinking beers, hoping sobriety would make all of this

41:18 go away. But it wasn't working. At first, Jennifer refused to give into the voices and follow through with the murders. Instead, she put the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to her own throat and considered killing herself. After deciding against that, she went and sat in the front room, still clutching the knife and waited for people to arrive. If the voices were right and someone did break in, she'd be ready to defend her family. Some time passed and obviously nothing happened. The voices were gone, too. So thinking the whole ordeal was over, she went back and laid in bed with her girls, eventually falling asleep until morning.

42:03 Yeah. Go back to At 7:30 you woke them up, put their coat and shoes on. Yeah. And then we were going to go leave and freaking go somewhere. I was like, "No, freaking we can't leave or whatever." Blah blah.

42:13 Where are we going to go, do you think? Across the street to the pay phone to call my dad for some reason. Okay.

42:17 To try to come pick us up cuz I was like freaking so scared. Then we I don't even know if we even went outside. I don't remember. before we turned back in and freaking didn't. And then it was like nothing was happening. Then all of a sudden, I just freaking grabbed the knife and did it.

42:28 All right. When that happened, where did you get the knife from? I think it was in the kitchen.

42:33 And how did the girls get back in the bedroom? Did you tell them to go back there?

42:36 Yeah. And they went back in the bedroom. And they were scared. I know. And who who uh who went first?

42:44 Alexa. Your younger one. And what? The bigger one. The bigger one. I'm sorry. I had to chase Ashley. I follow Ashley. I thought freaking I could have sweared. I thought I was like telling L I love you. You know, you'll never be heard. Blah blah blah. I won't let that happen to you. And then she's like, "Get Ashley." And I was like, "Okay." And then I walked out of the freaking bedroom. And

43:02 I can't even believe Lexa said that. I don't believe actually said it. Yeah. I I don't believe that. I must have heard that in my [ __ ] head. There's no run from the room.

43:10 Yeah. She was in the hiding under the kitchen table. This was clearly difficult for Jennifer talking about what she did to her own two little girls. You can hear in the audio that she seems to show some remorse, but her train of thought keeps getting redirected away from the worst parts of that morning.

43:30 Did you bring Ashley back in the bedroom next to Alexa? Did Is that where she died?

43:34 Is that where it happened? I think Yeah, I don't think Ashley died until the bedroom.

43:41 Did you? Cuz it was in the kitchen. Carry her back to the bedroom. Yes. But she was I thought I thought she was dead in the kitchen, but I don't think she was. I I don't think she died until she got back in the bedroom.

43:50 Did you actually stab her in the kitchen? Yes. And And how did you stab her? Where was she at? Was she on the floor, on the ground, on her back? Was she standing up?

43:59 I don't remember. Did you stab her? And maybe I didn't do it in the kitchen then. I don't know.

44:05 Okay. But did you you took her back to the bedroom at some point? Was she fighting you?

44:10 No, I don't. I don't think so. She probably was. I would have been inv you you laid her next to uh to Alexa. Mhm.

44:24 Was Alexa already dead at this point? Yeah. And and when you lay Ashley, was she dead when you laid her next to Alexa or did you lay her down then?

44:32 I laid her down. I think I made sure she was dead. I don't know. When you say you made sure she What did you do?

44:39 See if there was pulse. Can you show me how Can you put the cup down for a second? Show me what hand you held the knife in and show me how you you actually what motion you did.

44:49 I I don't know. I just like that. I think I don't So you're holding your hand up like this and coming down with a knife. You hold the knife like this or like like this.

45:00 In the footage, the detective shows two different stabbing motions. The first one he demonstrates is an overhead downward motion, while the other is an underhanded swiping upwards. Were the voices still talking to you when you were uh doing this?

45:15 They were doing this all day long. I wouldn't freaking leave my house after I did it. I actually thought I saved them. And then I started looking around the house and freaking everything the voices told me the night before and the voices were actually even telling me I think that freaking they were going to drive me crazy. So I killed my kids by the morning time and I was like no. At one point I think.

45:32 All right. [snorts] So I don't remember everything. Sometime it was sometime shortly after 7:30 yesterday morning when the girls died right?

45:39 Yep. Okay. And then and then how long after that did the dogs die? You recall? Not long. I was walking around the house and I kept thinking about freaking weird [ __ ] about I was going to go burn in hell now and demons were going to come pick me up from the front of my house in a freaking red car with fingers and toenails with freaking seat covers and [ __ ] I don't know. It was [ __ ] freaky. And all of a sudden I was like the dogs are still alive. Freaking I'm going to be tortured to death when they drop me down into hell. I got to kill the animals.

46:09 kill [snorts] the animals. How'd you do that? Oh, there's more water for you, too.

46:14 Um, I stuck the knife in it and just went down and made sure they were dead. Were [snorts] they on the ground? Were you holding them?

46:20 They were on a green blanket, but Angel with a big mouth actually got away and ran into the kitchen. I had to chase her down and bring her back. And I told them [snorts] it was for their own good.

46:30 And you you put on a blanket, but the threw them in the cage. [snorts] Okay. And then what are the little ones called?

46:37 The puppies? They were um um Jasmine and um what was the other one? Sam. And [snorts] they were uh the offspring of Angel. That was their mom. What kind of dogs are they?

46:51 I don't know. She's she was full Pomeranian. And I don't know what dad was. She just got pregnant.

46:58 Okay. [snorts] And then what about that mouse in the the pet mouse? I had to kill the mouse, too.

47:05 How did you uh do that? I think I like broke it neck or something. [snorts] Did you try to stab it?

47:14 Probably. Jennifer had killed every living being in her small trailer. Her two defenseless girls, three tiny Pomeranians, two of them puppies, and even the pet mouse. And it wasn't just the dog she had to chase down to finish the job. Despite their youngest age, her two daughters knew exactly what was going to happen. And they tried to get away. There's nothing I can say to prepare you for this next part. It is absolutely heartbreaking. Just to go back, just so I can clarify,

47:50 Alexa was killed in her bedroom. Was she killed right where we found her on the floor on that little makeshift bed that you guys were sleeping on? Okay. And then when while Alexa was being killed, Ashley ran out of the room and she ran into the kitchen.

48:10 Under the table and she was hiding under the table and I pulled her out. And did you did you stab her under the table at all? Did you try to like

48:17 not under the table? Like say, "Come out. Come out." Or or or how did you get her up from under the table?

48:21 Just grabbed her arm and pulled her out. I think you grabbed her arm and pulled her out cuz there's a little bit of blood under the table. So we're wondering did she get stabbed or there at all?

48:35 She got stabbed in the bedroom first and Lexa pushed me out pushed her out of the way and then I did did it to Alexa.

48:40 So Ashley was already bleeding. Okay. So Ashley was bleeding. That's why there's so

48:48 Okay. So then once you get Ashley from underneath the table, you carry her back to the bedroom.

48:55 Mhm. And you and you lay Did she fight more? Did you? Yes. Okay. And did you lay her down

49:06 right next to Alexa and that's where she died? Yes. Okay. And did she try to get back up and run again?

49:14 Yes. Okay. All right. Throughout this part of the interview, Jennifer with a blanket over her shoulders is using it to cover her face. She's hunched over in her chair, rocking back and forth. Did she say anything to you?

49:42 Jennifer, I know this is hard. Did Do you recall her standing up to you? No, I don't.

49:50 Okay. Was she crying? Yeah. Was she saying what was she saying? No. No. No. Mama, don't do it. Mama, she was scared as [ __ ]

49:59 Okay. All right. Okay. And how many times do you think you stabbed her? I have no idea. I don't want to know.

50:10 Okay. Do you remember how many times you stabbed Ashley? I don't know. I'm sorry, Alexa.

50:15 No, I don't want to know that either. Okay. Do you remember when when Ashley was stabbed the first time? time. She ran out of the room. Where was she stabbed? [gasps and laughter]

50:27 In the neck. In the neck. Was it was it deep wound or was it just kind of Did you just kind of nick her?

50:34 I don't know. Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay everyone in the trailer that morning. She ended her daughter's lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area, effectively severing their windpipes, as well as important arteries. Besides the neck wounds, though, there were no defensive injuries. These poor little girls couldn't even begin to fight off their mother. All they could do was run and try to find a hiding spot. But even then, Jennifer chased them down. I don't know.

51:14 Have you used narcotics in the past? Like long in your history? Did you use any kind of drugs?

51:19 Nothing. Long-term abuse of anything. Well, what did you use? I've smoked pot a few times. I've done acid a few times. You

51:26 did acid. How long ago did you do acid? When I was a teenager. [snorts] Okay. Um,

51:30 but recently, have you been using any kind of street drugs? Nothing whatsoever.

51:33 And any kind of prescription drugs? No. Okay. And have you ever seen anybody about any kind of problems in your head? You ever talked to anybody about it? Go see a doctor or

51:43 I had a couple shrinks when I was a kid, but that's cuz I was getting molested and stuff, but my mom always stopped taking me and [ __ ]

51:51 Okay. Did your mom have some uh problems? My mom? Oh god. My mom's a paranoid schizophrenic manic depressive.

51:59 Through interviewing both Jennifer and her sister Lauren, detectives were beginning to put the pieces together. Jennifer had been on a slow path to mental ruin. She had self-awareness and she knew she was displaying many of the same odd behaviors her mother had shown as her mental health declined. This wasn't her first rodeo. Jennifer knew how these things eroded. She felt herself losing grip on reality and she had been desperately trying to hide it.

53:12 21-year-old Lauren Kukla loved her family. Her biggest concern was making sure all of the children were safe, wellfed, and loved. To make this kind of life a reality for her two nieces, 8-year-old Alexa and 5-year-old Ashley, this often meant cleaning up her sister's messes. Her oldest sister, Jennifer, was a functioning alcoholic with constant money problems. And so those are the issues Lauren often helped to address. These surface issues pad in comparison to the turmoil happening in Jennifer's mind. The Kukla family was no stranger to mental illness, which somewhat blinded Lauren to her sister's worsening mental state. At the same time, Jennifer was trying to hide her mental illness. She often became nervous after saying what she perceived to be the wrong thing, which was basically anything that might indicate she was losing her mind. Lauren was so concerned with these surface level issues that

54:12 Jennifer's feeble attempts to hide what was actually going on worked. Things got quietly worse until February 4th, 2007 when Jennifer murdered her two little girls. Apparently, Jennifer's paranoia and hallucinations reached a peak that weekend. She told psychiatrists that voices were telling her that if she didn't kill her children, they'd be kidnapped, sexually abused, tortured, murdered, and then eaten. In her distorted mind, Jennifer thought slitting their throats and ending it all quickly was an act of compassion.

54:51 It was from her perspective the only way she could save them. Have you heard from the voices since uh this happened?

55:03 Well, like morning after it happened, I [snorts] stayed in the house and I was like I couldn't leave. I was like I was sitting there waiting for somebody to come pick me up and take me straight to hell. And it was like no big deal. It was like it was normal.

55:15 So, were you there all day then? I was there all day. Did you leave at any point?

55:19 No. So I go to my car to get cigar butts. I go right back in that. That was it.

55:24 Was your door left open all day? Yes. Why did I afraid to shut it? Why? [snorts]

55:31 I don't know. It was like freaking if I shut it then the freaking demons would come faster or some crap.

55:37 Did you get cold? Mhm. Where were you at during the day? Mostly sitting on the couch, I think. Did you go back in the bedroom at all? And they uh

55:47 a couple times, but I couldn't stay back there. What'd you do? Back there. Which which bedroom? You go to your bedroom or the girls?

55:54 The girls? Oh, and I went back in [snorts] the bathroom and I had to change my clothes and freaking get all cleaned up for some [ __ ] up reason.

56:05 How did you get cleaned up? Was that uh your water wasn't running? Like the water like out of the toilet, you know, the

56:12 the tank? Yeah, it was [ __ ] I don't know. Okay. When [snorts] you say you got changed,

56:19 uh, what were you wearing that night? And then warm. Um, I don't remember. You have to ask my sister.

56:28 So, after killing her children and all of the pets, Jennifer stayed in the house with their dead bodies all day. She paced around until the voices apparently told her to clean it up. With no running water, though, she decided to take the lid off the toilet tank and use the water in there to rinse off before replacing her bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry. When Lauren came upon the carnage and saw her sister dressed like a quote hobo, she suddenly realized what had been happening this whole time. At that moment, Lauren didn't see her sister. She saw her mother. Jennifer had become the splitting image of her mother.

57:18 So her actions didn't that day that day and any didn't surprise me because you your mom had acted similar to that.

57:26 I mean it was it was surprising but it was more interesting because when my mom would do I mean she wouldn't do stuff exactly like that. She never told me. She would just tell me about it happening.

57:35 Right. I mean, because my mom used to say, I'm I remember her telling me, Jenny telling me one time that she my mom pulled over the car right over on Romeo Plank near Speedway and she said, "I'm going to drown this in our in my piss, you know, and she pul she pulled her pants down and she was going to drown her herself in the was multiple suicide attempts." You know what I'm saying? Not in front of me, but Jenny said, "You guys are lucky you never had it as bad as we did." She I guess she chased Lizzie around the backyard with a butcher knife one time and like all this stuff. I don't know. I don't remember.

58:04 too young. I guess I shut it out. I have no idea. But she would tell me stuff about make uh Keith Richards and when we lost our house, how Keith Richards was going to buy it and she was going to get married to him. She told me about this guy who was like a healer and like you know like she worked he lost the house.

58:25 My grandma was sick of paying for it. When did your uh uh your dad go to prison? I was seven. 13 years ago.

58:34 He's still in prison for that. No. Yeah. Three years. That was your natural father.

58:40 Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said the other day that he was still in prison. I wish.

58:44 Where when's the last time you had contact with him? Called me that night. Sunday night after he heard heard.

58:50 He lives right me and my husband are separated like I said and he lives three condos away from my husband's mom. My mother-in-law. Looking back at all the strange things Jennifer had said and done made so much more sense when compared to her mother's decline. But hindsight is 2020. Let's rewind back to when Jennifer became paranoid that the two people who helped clean up her trailer were going to call CPS and turn her in.

59:21 She said I mean all she was she talked I guess briefly to this Jessica girl about how she she liked uh Dean Coon's books and stuff like that. different kinds of like horrors and suspense stuff like that. And she said that

59:37 later in the night she said that she um she didn't she wishes she didn't say that because she probably those girls probably think or that guy that girl probably thinks that she's nuts for liking those kinds of books. And I mean that's I don't know if that mean anything but she said she's like tell them that you know I just like to read those kind of books. You know they interest me blah blah blah. And then she had said to me that she's starting not to remember but starting to understand why she was drinking, why she would have had a drinking problem.

1:00:09 Told you that. Yeah, she said she understands why she has a drinking problem. For us, the people on the outside, it's not at all surprising that Jennifer suffered from addiction. But in Jennifer's mind, this all stemmed from her hypnosis as a teenager.

1:00:27 That it's in some way hello high in some way connected to the um the hypnotism.

1:00:34 Who does she think hypnotized? She didn't disclose that information to me. She said that she told Al that she knew biker crews like vigilantes or something. You know, she that she didn't say vigilantes, but that's the only name of a biker crew I've ever heard in my life. So, like stuff like that that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Reel, which I know was a boss at at Dejenko and was also the owner or part owner of uh TJ's where she worked at a golf course for a couple years in the summer and stuff like that. She said that he she wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she if she would go there and if she was actually doing the work that you know that they she told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it. She's thinking that she was brainwashed, thinking she was doing that kind of work when really she was doing something

1:01:23 else. She said that that was like a lapse in her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life. She asked me if I remembered her.

1:01:31 This was all Saturday night. Okay. She she said, "I I I think Lauren that I used to kill people." And I said, I I I really I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing it as an issue. Like she was saying it almost not in a joking manner, but not to where it's like, Lauren, I think I used to kill people. You need to, you know, help me or something. You know, she I think I used to kill people. I'm like, Jenny, you know, what are you where are you getting this from? And she's like, I don't know. I just I she's like, I don't understand. I don't remember. I don't remember. And then she said, she said like I don't remember that like three times, you know, in a row. And then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny, you know, and I remember growing up like she used to have like I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do like candle things in her room and like she'd walk around the c

1:02:20 like you know what I'm saying? Like weird [ __ ] like that. Like seance almost type.

1:02:24 Yeah, like like a seance or um like a demonic something or other. But I mean she at that time I know that she had had some experiences with drugs. I don't know what cuz I was 9 years younger, but I know I mean my mom bust a pot in the house. She found plants and she like threw them against the wall that they were all in the basement. The kids me and uh my old my Lizzy shared room upstairs for a while and then when my dad started raping the kids like right before Jenny turned like 10 or something, 12, I don't know. He made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So it was almost like their like I mean they were they weren't finished. There was tile on the floor, but it was like they were drywall and stuff like that.

1:03:07 They had separate rooms and um Lizzie was in this room, Joey was in the middle, and then Jenny was at the far end. And she used to come and sneak boys in and stuff like that. And they do, I mean, manage. So when that Lizzy is Lizz's fiance now, I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever. I didn't know. And I wouldn't tell my mom because they would tell me to shut up and they tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was there was stuff under I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing.

1:03:33 There was stuff under the stairs. There was fake spiders. There was ghosts. Whatever. You know what I'm saying? And I literally I really believe that they even if they weren't brainwashed that they had done something to themselves. You know what I mean? To where they thought that this was real, you know, or at least maybe she lived with that. She used to cut like I remember one time she cut slayer into her arm and I was like is that a band? she was into heavy metal and she's like no and she's like I didn't even do this you know and I I could remember her not not that time but I can remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms and stuff like that and my mom would send her to the counselor but because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever she would take them out because in her mind counselors and stuff like that were bad you know police were good

1:04:20 always police were good but counselors were bad teachers were bad. Um, they didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't know what they, you know, all this stuff. And she would say that they're gathering information on us. They want they want us. They want us. They want us. She would say like we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's descendants. We're, you know, all this stuff. And that's what I had to go around. I mean, I got past it. I'm working. I mean, I work through it. I understand that she had illness, but I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom the way that she was,

1:04:48 you were used to that kind of I was used to it. And I never thought that she would hurt anybody because my mom never

1:04:52 It didn't alarm you because you had been exposed to Right. It didn't at all. And I I mean I've been working through that, but at the same time I I was like, "How would you know that that she was going to, you know, hurt anybody?" And she's like, she said that anything that Jenny could have said, I mean, it would roll right off my back at the state that I am right now. So it did. You know what I'm saying? And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for me to get past my past with my mom. hard for me to even say that I can't believe what she was telling me about, you know, Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever because that was my mom and I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth.

1:05:28 That's you know. So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think what if mom I don't I don't want to say that I'm I don't want to feel like you or you guys think that I'm crazy, but what if you know maybe this is you know my mom not my mom telling her this stuff, but like maybe something my mom said was true. Maybe, you know, we are she was special or Jenny is special. That's why she tried to protect her before, you know, and that's why my mom had to be put on meds was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever. I don't know. You know what I'm saying?

1:05:59 And I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something. I don't know.

1:06:05 Their mother's unchecked mental illness had set the stage. Jennifer's life was a perfect storm and she knew it. What else do you need to know? [snorts]

1:06:19 Anything else you can think of to about this whole incident? I never should have had kids. Should have looked at my mom and said, "Well, she's psycho. Make sure I don't do it to nobody else. Don't have kids." Huh?

1:06:42 And there it is. Hearing these final words is haunting. Her admission. I should have never had kids. It's not just a regret. It's the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle of trauma and mental illness. She saw and experienced the fallout of her own mother's struggle, lived through it, and yet found herself walking down a similar path, trapped by the very symptoms she once feared. Jennifer was raised by someone incapable of loving, protecting, and caring for her in the way every child deserves.

1:07:28 This was a parent who not only failed to protect, but often directly exposed them to traumatic experiences. After living through that trauma, this same parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services. Perhaps Jennifer was set up to fail from the very start. In September of 2007, about 7 months after the tragic murders, 30-year-old Jennifer Kukla went to trial for two counts of first-degree murder. Three separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore not criminally responsible.

1:08:11 They felt she should be found guilty by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility. The jury though didn't buy it. They cited the feeble attempt at suicide, the inconsistencies in Jennifer's police interview compared to her psych interviews, and even witnessed testimony from her employer, who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her kids during a conversation about being late for work because of them. To top it off, even if Jennifer had been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law, if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not a defense.

1:08:57 The jury rendered a guilty verdict while also acknowledging the obvious mental illness. She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the promise that she would receive at least some mental health care. The police officers who responded to the gruesome scene will never get the image out of their heads. Jennifer asked for her brain to be erased. And I'm sure those officers wish for the very same thing. They remember seeing the two little girls laying side by side in their small bedroom, surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork, and even photos of them smiling with their mom. One deputy said this. You can only imagine their lifestyle. You could see that they didn't have much, but what they did have, they seemed to appreciate.

1:09:58 They seemed like they were happy, cute girls. You have to try hard not to think about it rationally. That was an irrational act. You never let it go. Heat. Heat. All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show that's coming up is called This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me. I know it's a very long title. Anyway, go find it on Apple and Spotify and subscribe. Do it now.

1:11:31 I will say one more thing cuz I know how you people operate. Yes, the show will be available on plus commercial free of course and it's going to be on every tier as well. So no more mixups. But you do help us out tremendously still by subscribing on Apple and Spotify.

1:12:26 Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Episode 282"?

Lauren Kukla (Primary witness / sister of subject).

What is "Episode 282" about?

In a chaotic family environment plagued by addiction and mental illness, 21-year-old Lauren Kukla struggles to maintain stability for her loved ones while confronting the rising tide of hidden dangers and emotional crises. As she navigates the overwhelming responsibilities of caregiving amid unspeakable secrets, the slow deterioration of her family's situation becomes increasingly perilous,…

What is mentioned in this Sword and Scale episode?

118 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Jennifer Kukla, Jenny Kukla, Ashley Kukla, Alexa, Nick & Ari Ashley, Lauren Kukla. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Episode 282"?

The episode runs 1 h 14 min; the transcript is about 13,677 words in 239 timestamped sections.

More from Sword and Scale

• All analyzed episodes
• Books mentioned on Sword and Scale
• People mentioned on Sword and Scale
• Sponsors mentioned on Sword and Scale
• Topics mentioned on Sword and Scale