Transcript

Episode 332

From Sword and Scale · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 11 min · 11,345 words · 126 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Episode 332", an episode of Sword and Scale published December 21, 2025 (1 h 11 min, about 11,345 words). It mentions 27 people, works and ideas, including Quincy Cross, Jessica Curran, Victoria Caldwell, Jeremy Adams, Susan Galbreth.

What this episode is about

This content explores a chilling incident that occurred in Mayfield, Kentucky, in August 2000, revealing how a seemingly ordinary morning led to the discovery of something disturbing outside a middle school. It highlights themes of unease and tension, suggesting that beneath the surface of everyday life, dark realities can emerge.

Key takeaways

  • In true horror fashion, sometimes monsters wear familiar faces, lurking just beneath the surface of small-town safety.
  • Every detail counts; even a smudge can reveal the chaos of struggle hidden behind a tranquil facade.
  • Jessica's legacy is a poignant reminder that behind every statistic lies a vibrant story waiting to be told.
  • Forensic limitations unveil a stark truth: science can't always discern the humanity behind a victim's demise.
  • The irony of 'small-town America' brings chilling depth to tragedies that disrupt the picturesque narrative we cherish.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Jessica Curran, Mayfield Middle School, Mayfield, Kentucky, Joe Curran
  2. – 20:00: Jeremy Adams, Jessica Curran, Susan Galbreth, Carlos Saxton
  3. – 30:00: Quincy Cross, Victoria Caldwell, Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, Tom Mangold
  4. – 40:00: Quincy Cross, Victoria Caldwell, Tim Fortner, Jessica Curran
  5. – 50:00: Innocence Project, Quincy Cross, Jessica Curran, Jeremy Adams
  6. – 1:00:00: Victoria Caldwell, Innocence Project, Bone Valley, Jason Flom
  7. – 1:10:00: Innocence Project, Jessica Curran, Quincy Cross, Jeremy Adams

Notable quotes from "Episode 332"

  • Sure enough, the next day, August 2nd, officials used dental records to make an identification. The charred woman was confirmed to be 18-year-old Jessica Curran. The autopsy…
    about Jessica Curran · at
  • It? Typical Americana stereotype. The dark irony of the situation was not lost on anyone. When his daughter was killed, Joe believed his town would rally and discover the truth.
    about Joe Curran · at
  • So, she probably conceived that night because the person she was seeing on the regular, her sexual partner was Marcus Morris and she swore that's who the baby she just knew that's who the baby's.
    about Jeremy Adams · at
  • But sometimes the person who breaks a case doesn't carry a badge. In Kentucky, a homemaker named Susan Gbreth decides Jessica's murder shouldn't fade into the shadows.
    about Susan Galbreth · at
  • In August of the year 2000, the charred body of 18-year-old Jessica Curran was found behind a middle school in Mayfield, Kentucky. The autopsy leaned on a piece of braided belt that was.
    about Mayfield Middle School · at
  • Victoria's statements would implicate six people in total, including herself.
    about Victoria Caldwell · at
  • First-degree rape, first-degree sodomy, abuse of a corpse, and tampering with evidence, Quincy was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
    about Quincy Cross · at
  • Of people need help and if they're smart and, and they have the ability, they're going to reach out. So, this is Jason Flom. He's a veteran record executive turned innocence…
    about Jason Flom · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Quincy Cross — Person · Convicted defendant; subject of innocence advocacy · 11 mentions · first at
    Convicted as ringleader based largely on testimony; later challenged by recantations, alleged police corruption, and advocacy from Jason Flom and even the victim's father.
  • Jessica Curran — Person · Victim / central figure of the case · 10 mentions · first at
    Her 2000 homicide is the core narrative; all suspects, witnesses, and investigative controversy revolve around her death.
  • Victoria Caldwell — Person · Key prosecution witness; later recanter / contested witness · 10 mentions · first at
    Her evolving statements implicate Quincy Cross and others; later claims coercion and payments, making her credibility central to the wrongful-conviction debate.
  • Jeremy Adams — Person · Early primary suspect / indicted defendant; later alleged confessor · 8 mentions · first at
    Initially indicted (murder) with case dismissed on discovery violations; later multiple alleged confessions and paternity rumors keep him central to innocence claims for Quincy Cross.
  • Susan Galbreth — Person · Citizen sleuth / influential non-law-enforcement investigator · 3 mentions · first at
    Re-energizes the cold case, connects witnesses to investigators, and is portrayed as having outsized influence and potential bias in steering suspicion away from Jeremy Adams.
  • Jason Flom — Person · Referenced expert / innocence advocate (interviewee) · 3 mentions · first at
    Frames the wrongful-conviction argument, describes systemic failures and alleged corruption, and recounts how the case reached him via prison researcher Shiron Edwards.
  • Joe Curran — Person · Victim's father / family spokesperson · 2 mentions · first at
    Provides family background and grief narrative; later aligns with Quincy Cross's father in believing the wrong person was convicted.
  • Tom Mangold — Person · Referenced journalist / external amplifier of the case · 4 mentions · first at
    BBC journalist who responds to Susan Galbreth, travels to Kentucky, and publishes reporting that increases scrutiny and attention on the investigation.
    Susan opened doors and Tom put a spotlight on what they were hearing. In the fall of the same year, Tom put the case under the microscope with an article called Murder in a Small Town.
  • Venicia Stubblefield — Person · Corroborating witness; later recanter (per episode) · 3 mentions · first at
    Corroborates parts of Victoria Caldwell's story at trial; later signs affidavit admitting false testimony, supporting the innocence narrative.
    But it wasn't just Victoria Caldwell who had changed her story and agreed to testify. Venicia Stubblefield wasn't a primary witness, but she corroborated pieces of Victoria's…
  • Norman Lear — Person · Corrupt police figure (as alleged/described) · 2 mentions · first at
    Presented as symbol of Mayfield PD corruption; alleged involvement in coercion and payments to witnesses, affecting case integrity.
    Police Department was hopelessly corrupt, and that's not speculation, right? that's been proven. The head guy there, Ronnie Lear, was almost comically corrupt and was, indicted and [gasps].
  • Tim Fortner — Person · Detective / grand jury witness; criticized investigator · 3 mentions · first at
    Testifies in grand jury audio; later described as rookie detective who mishandled scene, emblematic of investigative failures.
    I'm employed by the city of Mayfield as a police detective. So, if you would, let's let's tell the grand jury what happened and how you got involved investigation and where we are.
  • Carlos Saxton — Person · Early secondary suspect / indicted accomplice · 2 mentions · first at
    Linked to Jeremy Adams and indicted as accomplice; part of the initial investigative theory before the later Quincy Cross narrative.
    The circle soon widened to include Carlos Saxton, who moved in Jeremy's orbit, and according to Mayfield police, was with him the night they went looking for Jessica. They would both face indictment. Jeremy with.
  • Marcus Morris — Person · Potential father (ruled out by DNA per episode) · 2 mentions · first at
    Initially believed by Jessica to be Zion's father; DNA test negative, shifting suspicion toward Jeremy Adams in the narrative.
    Regular, her sexual partner was Marcus Morris and she swore that's who the baby she just knew that's who the baby's daddy was because I mean for real it was one time with Jeremy, and she we didn't even think about that night.
  • Shiron Edwards — Person · Prison researcher / tipster to Jason Flom · 1 mention · first at
    Introduces Quincy Cross case to Jason Flom; described as a prisoner who researches cases and flags potential innocence claims.
    Researching cases around the country and bringing them to me when he finds cases of actual innocence. So, he spends his time at the law library and he brought me the case of…
  • Elena Thomas — Person · Episode writer/producer (staff credit) · 1 mention · first at
    Credited as writer/producer of the season finale episode; not part of the case narrative.
    The final episode of this season was written and produced by Elena Thomas, one of our senior producers. As this year comes to a close, we'd like to say thank you to our entire staff, including.
  • Evan Zagelman — Person · Producer (staff credit) · 1 mention · first at
    Listed among show staff; not involved in the case narrative.
    Year comes to a close, we'd like to say thank you to our entire staff, including producers Evan Zagelman, Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabil, Mish Barber We also our engineers Rob Rlli, and John Mcichael.
  • Valerie Vernon — Person · Producer (staff credit) · 1 mention · first at
    Listed among show staff; not involved in the case narrative.
    Year comes to a close, we'd like to say thank you to our entire staff, including producers Evan Zagelman, Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabil, Mish Barber We also our engineers Rob Rlli, and John Mcichael.
  • Michael Stabil — Person · Producer (staff credit) · 1 mention · first at
    Listed among show staff; not involved in the case narrative.
    Thank you to our entire staff, including producers Evan Zagelman, Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabil, Mish Barber We also our engineers Rob Rlli, and John Mcichael.
  • Mish Barber — Person · Producer (staff credit) · 1 mention · first at
    Listed among show staff; not involved in the case narrative.
    Thank you to our entire staff, including producers Evan Zagelman, Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabil, Mish Barber We also our engineers Rob Rlli, and John Mcichael.
  • John Mcichael — Person · Engineer (staff credit; name uncertain) · 1 mention · first at
    Credited as engineer; spelling appears uncertain in transcript (possibly 'McMichael').
    Producers Evan Zagelman, Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabil, Mish Barber We also our engineers Rob Rlli, and John Mcichael.
  • Rob Rlli — Person · Engineer (staff credit; name uncertain) · 1 mention · first at
    Credited as engineer; spelling appears uncertain in transcript (likely a transcription error).
    Thank you to our entire staff, including producers Evan Zagelman, Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabil, Mish Barber We also our engineers Rob Rlli, and John Mcichael.

Companies & orgs

  • Kentucky Bureau of Investigation — Company · Case study · 4 mentions · first at
    State investigative body involved in the case, criticized for its handling of the investigation.
    Around the same time the state's investigative arm, the newly built Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, got involved. In 2005, two women who had already been interviewed years earlier,.
  • Innocence Project — Company · Referenced expert · 8 mentions · first at
    Organization mentioned in the context of wrongful convictions and legal advocacy.
    Jason Flom isn't just a huge name in the music industry. He's one of the founding members of the Innocence Project. I'm sure you've heard of it. And I'm not just being nice to…

Products & tech

  • Bone Valley — Product · Primary recommendation · 1 mention · first at
    Podcast series that delves into the case of Quincy Cross and wrongful convictions.
    Innocence Project. His team spent several years digging into the case and the result was a full season of their show Bone Valley. Go check it out on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Places & events

  • Mayfield Middle School — Place · Setting · 4 mentions · first at
    The location where Jessica Curran's body was found, central to the crime scene investigation.
  • Mayfield, Kentucky — Place · Setting · 5 mentions · first at
    The town where the murder occurred, providing the social and geographical context for the crime.
    In August of the year 2000, the charred body of 18-year-old Jessica Curran was found behind a middle school in Mayfield, Kentucky. The autopsy leaned on a piece of braided belt that was.
  • Grace County High School — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    School where Jessica Curran and Jeremy Adams met, providing background on their relationship.
    How did you know Jessica? I met her at Grace County High School. We went to school together. We had a math class together and we just started interacting with one another and started hanging out.

Full transcript with timestamps

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

I remember her saying that she had she has a little boy and she just kept saying Zion and but they didn't let her up. Welcome to episode 332 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real.

The final episode of this season was written and produced by Elena Thomas, one of our senior producers. As this year comes to a close, we'd like to say thank you to our entire staff, including producers Evan Zagelman, Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabil, Mish Barber We also our engineers Rob Rlli, and John Mcichael. Gertie. It works our customer service whenever you have a problem with your app, which you can download, by the way, right now in the Google Play Store or the Apple App Store. I know we've been uh losing a few of you in the last year or so. And uh we'll try to get you back.

It's like a guy can't even have a mental breakdown anymore. In early August of the year 2000, just before the new school year was about to begin, the heat sat heavy over Mayfield, Kentucky. It was still early in the morning and everything was quiet and still. The only sounds were the occasional bird chirping on the rooftop of Mayfield Middle School and the floor waxing machines humming inside the building. Out behind the school, a teacher spotted an unusual dark shape in the grass. I taught an environmental science class and um we this was a memorial to a teacher that had died at our school and we always kept fresh flowers and uh kept it planted and weeded and stuff like that. I went out the door and I just I still had my hand on the door. I remember because if I had closed it, it would have locked. And I saw this sandal laying right by the the door. U there's a little concrete pad there and I saw the sandal laying there

and I just thought, you know, I wonder what that sandal's doing there. And when I looked over to the left is when I saw the body.

It was hard to tell it was a human body, though. The corpse was burned to a crisp. It just took me a few seconds to try to figure out, you know, that it was a body and I I I just I was still holding on to the door and I just turned around, you know, I said to myself, I I believe that's a body. And I went back in the building to find Mr. Almond, my principal, to tell him. And um I told him, I said, "Mr. Almond, I think there's a dead body out back." and he immediately just started, you know, running down the hall. And we went back out there and sure enough, the next day, August 2nd, officials used dental records to make an identification. The charred woman was confirmed to be 18-year-old Jessica Curran. The autopsy offered few answers. It looked like she'd been badly beaten in the head and face, but a segment of a black braided leather belt found beside her body is what took center stage.

Based on that, the medical examiner determined that she must have been strangled. Because the top half of her body was so badly burned, the usual indicators of strangulation weren't there. But the belt was enough. Just the same, there weren't any physical signs of sexual assault, but detectives had found Jessica's ripped underwear near her body, so the assumption was made. Over by the glass doors of the school, they found a clump of Jessica's hair and some suspicious smudging near the door handle. Jessica hadn't gone down without a fight. Here are a couple of detectives from the Mayfield Police Department.

It was obvious even that part. You could tell that there's the smudges could have been from anything.

But I mean, it looked like the hands had been, you know, like this smudged over there. So, with the clump of hair there, it certainly appeared to have been some type of struggle. Perhaps somebody trying to get in or throw the door open. Uh, you figure with that kind of violence, I mean, there's a big smash back of her head. Her nose is driven up into I mean, this part is driven up into the brain essentially. I mean sit and she sit pretty hard and she she was tagged hard very painful had to be. So you figure blood spattering somewhere so it probably did but with all the rain it washed it away and then and then they found later that there was still a lot of blood there and it drain there. So most of it happened pretty close to there and definitely the burning happened there because the grass and fern

the grass around her body was scorched. Detectives took that to mean she was set on fire right there in that spot, not burned elsewhere and moved. This was assumed to be a violent, bloody struggle, but there was no blood evidence found at the scene. After all, Jessica had been laying in the spot behind the middle school for 2 days or more. Because of the environmental damage, the medical examiner was limited in what he could say for sure. He listed strangulation as the cause of death. The rest, possible head and facial injuries, couldn't be pinned down with certainty.

In truth, there wasn't much left to go on. What everyone hoped, though, is that Jessica died before she was set on fire.

From what we gathered, it was from the autopsy report for it. We don't know for sure. There's no way to to tell perfectly other there's no soot in there to where she would have breathed any any soot to at that point. So I mean obviously we're hoping she dead before she set a fire.

Forensic evidence can give you an approximate time of death and tell you how someone was killed, but it can't tell you who a person truly was. 18-year-old Jessica Curran came from a notable local family. Her dad, Joe Curran, was the definition of Mayfield. High school football, church on Sundays, a small business, and eventually captain of the fire department. Can you picture it? Typical Americana stereotype. The dark irony of the situation was not lost on anyone. When his daughter was killed, Joe believed his town would rally and discover the truth.

years later though, he would still be asking for it. She was pretty tiny. I think she was about 7 lb or so when she was born, a little over. After she grew up, she was more like 5'9 or so, long legs, tall. My next son came 3 years later and she was pretty much a mother for him. She packed him around all the time. She recorded his football games. She recorded his basketball games. And we could tell most of the time when she did a recording cuz most of the time recording was only on him. It wasn't on the team. It was just on him. I thought that was so funny. I'm like, who scored the points and who else is playing on this team?

She's had everything on Josh. She showed everything on him. She act like nobody else was on the team. You can hear her hollering for him. Go Josh. told Josh, she she really loved her brothers and she really loved her family.

But soon Jessica grew up. She wasn't a little girl anymore caring for her brothers. She was a young woman who had just entered adulthood and found herself unexpectedly pregnant.

It wasn't a happy time. I I wasn't ready for that at that time, but she was old enough and I know she had been seeing a few guys and I was I knew it was a possibility. Now, this was a community where word got around. People were talking about who the father of Jessica's son, Zion, might be and why he might have wanted Jessica dead. Within 2 months, two local men were under the microscope. At the time of her murder, baby Zion was only 7 months old. When she first had him, she thought Zion's father was a guy she really liked, someone named Marcus. But there was a possibility that it was another man, someone Jessica really didn't like.

Do you know Jessica Kern? Yes, I do. How did you know Jessica? I met her at Grace County High School. We went to school together. We had a math class together and we just started interacting with one another and started hanging out and became pretty good friends. I considered her one of my best friends.

Well, that night had to have been the night she got pregnant. So, she probably conceived that night because the person she was seeing on the regular, her sexual partner was Marcus Morris and she swore that that's who the baby she just knew that's who the baby's daddy was because I mean for real it was one time with Jeremy, you know, and she we didn't even think about that night because we hadn't even seen the dude since then, you know. And um so when the baby was born, she um was trying to get child support ordered for Marcus or whatever and they done a DNA test and it came back negative or however they come back. It wasn't his. And so she called me and she told me and she's like, "Jessica, the only other person that could be is Jeremy Adams."

According to her best friend, Jessica was devastated and for good reason. when we were hanging out and we first started hanging out, she wasn't really dating anyone. There was a few I mean we just hung out with people. We didn't really date. We would go to football games and you know just things like that with our friends and then um she did start seeing Jeremy Adams but it wasn't a date thing. It was a hangout thing like so we all went back to my house and [clears throat] we hung out or whatever and that night she he uh kind of forcibly took her around the building and had [clears throat] they had sex. It was like 2 seconds they were around there and came back and he walked off and that was that. And then we didn't really see him again. We didn't really hang out with him again or anything because she felt uncomfortable about that.

Okay. Mayfield PD never interviewed you. State police has never contacted you. No.

Okay. Rumors that Jeremy was the father of Jessica's baby gave rise to theories. This was only fueled by the indicators that there had been a struggle at the middle school. the clump of Jessica's hair, the smudges on the glass doors, and a baby that might not be his. All this put him right there in the crosshairs of the investigation. The circle soon widened to include Carlos Saxton, who moved in Jeremy's orbit, and according to Mayfield police, was with him the night they went looking for Jessica. They would both face indictment. Jeremy with murder and Carlos as an accomplice to murder. The audio you're about to hear is from the grand jury proceeding.

Would you state your name for the record please? Detective Tim Fortner. I'm Tim. And how are you employed?

I'm employed by the city of Mayfield as a police detective. So, if you would, let's let's tell the grand jury uh what happened and how you got involved investigation and where we are.

Apparently, Jeremy Adams had a cellmate at the county jail named Jesse. Well, Jesse desperately wanted to tell authorities what Jeremy had shared with him while they were locked up together.

Jesse is very uh distraught crime, said that this has bothered him. That's the reason he wanted to talk to us. He he never mentioned anything about any money, any any crime stoppers, nothing. He just just was very distraught about this. Jesse seemed genuinely terrified at the prospect of sharing a cell with a murderer. So scared, in fact, that he requested a different soulmate. Eventually, he even requested to be transferred to a different facility. Here's Jesse's statement. On January the 15th, Jeremy came to my cell while me and two other inmates were there and started talking about Jessica's case again and made the statement that he had been seeing Jessica and that she had messed around with someone. Then he was talking about an argument and her running out of her brown sandal and been hitting head so hard that her tongue was in and out. Then he had made the statement that her little white pannies

had been tore off and fell beside her and that she had been killed in one spot and drugged to another. He also at one time said something about uh after she was burned and turned over about the braided hair being stuck to the ground and said something about not wanting his girlfriend finding out about the baby they had together.

These are a lot of details that as far as I know weren't public knowledge at the time. And if Jeremy had a girlfriend, that's another possible motive. Jeremy stated that he didn't want his girlfriend to find out that he had a baby with another woman. Based on all of this, a grand jury returned indictments for both Jeremy and Carlos. The cases were slowly headed towards trial. Jeremy was set for February of 2003, but less than a week before the start date, a judge dismissed the case entirely. The reason, Mayfield police had failed to turn over audio and video evidence.

They had, you know, [ __ ] up a procedural thing, some paperwork, some nonsense, and that was that. Jessica's family felt they knew who had done this. Jeremy's cellmate was certain he was the one who had killed Jessica. But now Jeremy was walking free. Here's Jessica's dad. I wasn't really happy about that at all. I felt like um they finally got somebody and now they're releasing them. I remember the first time that I after the case had went they had released the first three and me and my wife went to Walmart and I know a lot of people I've been around this area all my entire life.

And I went in Walmart and I would see somebody that I knew and I was friends with that I always speak to, talk to or shake hands with. and they would turn away and some of them wouldn't know what to say and [clears throat] some of them would just turn and go a different direction to avoid me. And that night I realized what an impact it had on the community, the people here. So I went back to the car. I told my wife, I I I not going to put those people through that. They really didn't know what to say to me. What do you say to a person who's lost their daughter and then they release the people? They They really didn't know what to say. What do you say? For years, Jessica's murder sat unsolved.

But sometimes the person who breaks a case doesn't carry a badge. In Kentucky, a homemaker named Susan Gbreth decides Jessica's murder shouldn't fade into the shadows. If you've spent any time at all in the Facebook community, especially the true crime community, you'll know that there's a whole lot of these people out there. They call themselves, I guess, web sleuths or armchair detectives or, I don't know, any number of things. But they got a whole lot of time on their hands, and they spend it trying to solve cold cases, often to the detriment of the official investigation.

Anyway, Susan Galbreth was one of these people and she says she was at the crime scene that day and when she saw Jessica's body, she knew she had to help. So, she starts small with a phone, a list of names, and the patience to call dozens of people. She keeps notes about things that don't sit right with her. She shows up with questions and lets people talk. Tips all start landing in one place. Susan's notebook. Bit by bit, doors that stayed closed for law enforcement open for her. Officials learn her name. Reporters do also. And for the first time in a long time, this case feels like it might actually be solvable by a determined woman with a stubborn streak.

This is the part that really makes you want to believe in humanity, at least a little bit. the crazy and hopeful idea that an armchair detective can do what the system can't or won't because it looks like maybe, just maybe, Susan would be the one to solve the murder of Jessica Curran.

In August of the year 2000, the charred body of 18-year-old Jessica Curran was found behind a middle school in Mayfield, Kentucky. The autopsy leaned on a piece of braided belt that was found nearby. So, the medical examiner deduced that the cause of death was strangulation. The early case zeroed in on a man named Jeremy Adams and his friend Carlos Saxton. They were both indicted, but in 2003, the cases were dismissed after discovery violations. Years passed without answers until 2004 when a Kentucky homemaker and self-proclaimed citizen sleuth put the case back up on the map. Susan Galbreth had no law enforcement experience and had never done any real detective work, but sitting alone at home, she started investigating.

Remind me when you said you became interested in this case. Um, the day the body was found, the day Jessica's body was found.

And did you have contact with the Cur? No. I I knew follow it in the in the paper.

Yes. Did you say that you were were you employed at that time? Um no, I've been hurt on my job in 98. So I hadn't had a you know a job since then. So

and this new job that had fallen into her lap was the one she knew she couldn't do alone. So, shooting for the moon, she started reaching out to celebrities like Oprah Winfrey and Julia Roberts. Most never wrote back, of course. I mean, I doubt they even see their own fan mail, but one person did. Not any of the A-listers, but a guy named Tom Mangold, a veteran BBC journalist in London. Susan, it seems, had cast a very wide net. Her matter-of-fact email landed in Tom's inbox, and he answered it. In quick succession, he shelled out his own cash, bought a plane ticket, and flew to Kentucky. I don't think Susan herself is quite sure what it was that that particularly grabbed her about the Jessica Curran case. If I had to hazard a guess, and I've never really done more than than guess about it, I think she has a kind of Arin Brockovich dimension which came out at that particular time and I think it's still there and I think

it could come out again tomorrow. You're asking me why did I sense a story? I one just does. I mean, it seemed to me that that here was here was a very interesting situation uh where you have a murder. Well, murder is pretty common place everywhere in the Western world, but you you had somebody who was absolutely dedicated to finding who the culprits were, didn't quite know why she was so dedicated, and was up against what was effectively a corrupt police force, a totally failed uh series of investigations, but just plowed on and on without any particular benefit to herself.

By the spring of 2004, Tom Mangold was on the ground reporting with Susan He once was a journalist reporting on wars, organized crime, and UK politics. Now he was in Mayfield, Kentucky, reporting on a young woman's murder. Susan opened doors and Tom put a spotlight on what they were hearing. In the fall of the same year, Tom put the case under the microscope with an article called Murder in a Small Town. Around the same time the state's investigative arm, the newly built Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, got involved. In 2005, two women who had already been interviewed years earlier, Victoria Caldwell and Venicia Stubblefield, changed their stories.

Those new statements taken by state investigators now pointed to an entirely different suspect.

Why did did they ask you to make that statement? Um they asked me to make the statement cuz they wanted me to lie lie for um um flimsy

flimsy crops. These rein done in a hotel conference room for some reason. People who had told one story the first time around were now telling an entirely different story. But KBI ate up every bit of it. Susan Gbreth was happy to see her cunning detective work finally paying off. You're fully confident in the results that you got. Obviously,

I I am. Yes. I I interviewed Quincy Cross. I I spent about an hour and a half long interview with him. And in that interview, Tom told me, "Don't expect a confession." And and so I didn't. But the truth never changes, but but lies do. In that interview, he he gave me some telling information that I knew had never been made public. I remember at the time screaming pretty much to uh Kentucky State Police that, you know, this is enough to arrest him on right here. Did it happen? No. But I definitely believe they've got the right cover with with Quincy Cross.

Quincy Cross was Victoria's cousin's boyfriend. Victoria tells KBI that somehow everyone involved knew they were going to be interviewed by the Mayfield police. And 15-year-old Victoria says she was told to lie to divert attention away from Quincy. She says she obeyed.

How did you come up on your your information that you knew about Quincy? Um I What do you mean?

How did you How did you know your information? Um because I heard um my husband speaking about it and I and I heard them say some things.

Okay. When you talked to us if we had no knowledge of the case. Uh Victoria, I want you to use names because you know you know all the people that you're talking about. We need to know. Victoria's first statements to KBI were cautious. She says she just overheard her cousin talking to Quincy Cross about the case and that's where she was getting her information. But after numerous follow-up interviews that summer, her story crystallized. Victoria's statements would implicate six people in total, including herself. By the time she took the stand in 2008, her story had become sharper, more linear, and much more disturbing. And that's when um Quincy and Tamara and this white guy, I don't remember his name, but they had pulled up to my house. And

you said you remember his first name? Yeah, it was um Jeffrey. My cousin asked me if I wanted to take a ride with them. And I was like, "Yeah, because she's older than me, you know, so it's cool to hang out with older people." So then I I get into the car with them, which I got into the back seat. They um picked up Venicia. Venicia had mentioned that Jessica had a ride for the party and I guess nobody wanted to give her a ride. So, I don't remember what said, but um Quincy and Tamara had whispered something to each other. And they're like, "Okay, then we'll go pick her up." Jessica gets into the car. When we got to the white guy's house, we they had gotten out. We all had gotten out, but they had pulled um Jessica to get out the car with them, kind of like forcing her to get out the car. And they go inside and then they go into this bedroom.

The white guy had left me and had went into the room with them and they came right back out. But then I heard yelling and screaming. So I was wondering what the hell was going on. And so I opened the door and that's when I had seen Tamara holding Jessica down and Quincy over her with the belt around her neck. And Quincy was kind of over her like kind of like over her stomach like up high on her stomach area and he had a belt that he had gotten from his pants and had put it around her neck and she was just I remember her saying that she had she has a little boy and she just kept saying Zion and but they didn't let her up and I just went back out of the room real quick and I had just sat down on that couch and then I just ran back in there again and that's when I was like, "She's not breathing." So, I touched her neck and I told him that she was dead.

Victoria says her cousin Tamara took some photos of Quincy with Jessica's body. These photos were never found. From the pictures that I saw, Tamar had to take a couple of those pictures because she like had his private area out.

Mhm. And it was like kind of torched her lips. This was lips. And this is Was this Was this before or after she was uh murdered?

After she was murdered. That's what I mean by they were getting off on it. Victoria says they wrapped Jessica's body in a blanket and threw her into the trunk of the car. They drove around for a while and eventually ended up in the Mayfield Middle School.

Okay. So, they stopped at the school. Who gets the body out of the trunk? Um, first Quincy and the white guy tried to lift the body out of the trunk, but they couldn't. So, Tammer went to the back and helped them lift the body out.

Okay. And what do they do with the body then? They lay it um in the flower bed area where the flower bed is.

Okay. And then what happens? They I don't remember if they took the blanket off. I don't remember. They um Quincy poured the gas on her and Venanisha had threw the match.

Where did he pour the gas? Where was the majority of the gas poured on? I believe it was her face. I'm not really sure.

Okay. So, he pours the gas What does he do with the cup? Um, I don't remember what he did with the cup cuz after he poured the gas and nish to the match by ran.

Okay, so Quincy, everybody gets their story together, Jeremy Adams is going to be the final guy. Was there any discussion why how did Jerry Jeremy Adams name come into it? Whose idea was that?

That was Quincy's cuz I guess Jeremy owed him some money. Okay. Was there a mention? Was there any mention about Did anybody know that Jeremy ever had a relationship with Jessica?

Tammer knew that. How How did she know that? Um I don't know. Tamar has known Jessica for a long time

from my understanding. But it wasn't just Victoria Caldwell who had changed her story and agreed to testify. Venicia Stubblefield wasn't a primary witness, but she corroborated pieces of Victoria's story. This included the others that were implicated in Victoria's version of events. A man named Jeff Burton, the owner of the house she testified that the murder happened in, her cousin Tamara Caldwell, and a guy named Austin Leachch, and someone named Isaac Benjamin. All this testimony gave the jury a cohesive chain from the house to the car to the middle school. Victoria also testified that after that day, Quincy called her, claiming the belt used to kill Jessica was his and offered Victoria money to keep quiet. The Commonwealth put all of this in front of a jury. There were no dramatic forensics. There was no hard physical evidence and no confession from Quincy. It was all a narrative built

from testimony with Victoria Caldwell at the center of it all. and it worked. Ultimately, the jury decided this group of people were guilty and that Quincy Cross was the ring leader. After being found guilty on charges of murder, first-degree rape, first-degree sodomy, abuse of a corpse, and tampering with evidence, Quincy was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. After the trial, guilty verdict, and sentencing, numerous questions still hung in the air. When a case leans this hard on human stories, some of them changing over time, how should we weigh them? What's the standard? People forget things and get things wrong all of the time. We know that. We've seen it. So, what do you do with human testimony? As you can imagine, I get presented with cases many times a day, all day. I mean, you know, that's one of the things about being known in this space, right? A lot

of people need help and if they're smart and, you know, and they have the ability, they're going to reach out. So, this is Jason Flom. He's a veteran record executive turned innocence advocate. Whether you think you're the next big pop star or you're wrongfully convicted, he's the guy to call. But I first heard about this case from a guy in prison in Mississippi who I've been trying to help for some time now. His name is Shiron Edwards, but he calls himself Sherlock Homeboy. [snorts] He's a great guy. He's not an innocent guy. Uh, but it's a complicated case.

But anyway, Chiron Sherlock enjoys researching cases around the country and bringing them to me when he finds cases of actual innocence. So, he spends his time at the law library and um and he brought me the case of Quincy Cross. And when I heard about it, I just was blown away. I mean, I hear so many crazy cases, but the deeper you get into this one, it's like layers of a rotten onion. You just keep peeling them and it just keeps smelling worse and worse and you go, "Wow, how could this be?" And then I came to find out, sorry for my rant here, but I came to find out that the two dads, Quincy Cross's dad and Jessica Curran's dad, have been aligned for many, many years now, working together to try to get justice. David Cross wants wants justice for his son who's wrongfully convicted, and Mr. Curran believes wants justice for his daughter. and he has he's unequivocal in that he doesn't believe

they got the right person. And so it's so such an unusual and powerful alignment to have the two dads working together when one would think that they would be mortal enemies.

If the people who lived this case say Quincy isn't the killer, what do they know that the jury didn't? One of the things that makes this case so maddening is the idea that first thing they did was they assigned a rookie cop. Well, a rookie a guy who had just been promoted to detective. He was a patrolman up until, you know, I don't know, days or weeks before this happened in a place that has hadn't had a murder in over a year. And they assign this guy Tim Forner who has said that he he thinks that they were setting him up to fail. He didn't know anything. He didn't even know to secure the crime scene. They threw out evidence, like lots of evidence. They threw out the maggots that were on the body. Sorry for that detail because she had been dead for some time, which would have helped to determine how long she had been there for. They threw out all sorts of other evidence. And they allowed people to sort of trapes through

the crime scene, which is, you know, again, give me your random, you know, teenager and they would know from watching crime shows on on their laptop that or their iPad that that's you don't do that, right? But Tim was uh Tim was way over his head. But there was a lot of stuff going on. I mean, the Mayfield Police Department was hopelessly corrupt, and that's not speculation, right? that's been proven. The the head guy there, Ronnie Lear, was almost comically uh corrupt and was, you know, indicted and [gasps] charged and convicted of um of all sorts of, you know, all sorts of crimes. You know, when he cleared out when he was fired from the police department, they cleared out his desk. They found uh as his successor said, they found enough drugs for half of Mayfield in his desk.

and they found guns that weren't his police weapon and they weren't registered to him and they don't know who it belonged to. He was he was um caught stealing from the evidence room and selling various items. I mean, he was he was um he was a character. And into this mess enters Susan Galbreth, the professional armchair detective.

You know Susan Galbreth? Yes, sir. I do. And she was involved in the investigations of this case, was she not?

Yes, sir. She has nothing to do with law enforcement, does she? Uh, no, sir. Yet, she was actually involved and present during official questioning of witnesses, was she not?

Official questioning of witnesses. Yes. In other words, we look at transcripts where they say persons present and we'll see you and wise O'Neal Calgary so and so and so Calgary. She was at these interviews.

That's possible. She was, you know, bizarrely almost anointed uh deputized someone who had no experience, no background in law enforcement or any investigative experience or anything. She wasn't a journalist. She was just a homemaker who they allowed to run roughshot over this case. And she was given full access to everything. And sure enough, she got her way and she got some awards and she's not around anymore, but um she she died relatively young, I guess. But she left a trail of bodies uh in her wake that is really um it's really uh extraordinary.

Did you have u an interest in criminal law in general? Well, when I was a child, I either wanted to be a comedian or a police officer. So I mean neither of course

but so I've just always had fascination with the law and things like that. Had you taken an interest in other cases prior to this one?

Yeah like followed court TV stuff like that and so I I of course was at the time there were so many murders in Mayfield going on that it I was I was just you know dumbfounded by it. It was just, you know, and here was another one and it just all of them kind of captured an interest in me, you know. So, Detective Steer and I uh through Detective Mills became acquainted and so I started anytime I had anything that I could give him, I would call him then. You [clears throat] know,

just a reminder, this was quite literally a random unemployed woman calling to interview people, taking notes, and reporting back to authorities. and they were taking her seriously. This should tell you something about the state and effectiveness of government more than anything. That is if you're smart enough to pay attention. The audio you've been hearing, by the way, is from her testimony at Quincy Cross's trial. That's how deeply she was integrated into this case.

She was definitely a key piece of it. They really didn't have much else. They had some circumstantial evidence that even after it was disproven, they clung to and they kept reinforcing it and hitting the jury over the head with it figuratively. And you know, but there's so much to process because it's such a crazy web of lies and corruption and you know, and nine people arrested for this crime under these whacked out theories. And you [snorts] know, several of whom ended up in prison. Quincy is the only one who's still in prison, but some of them, you know, there were people who were forced to testify in a certain way and then have recanted. All the witnesses have recanted and there's no physical evidence of any kind. All these years later, as we know now, there's none. There's zero evidence connecting any of the people who eventually were targeted and I believe framed for this horrible crime to the

crime itself or to Jessica. And what we know now is that most of them didn't even know each other at the time that they supposedly committed this crime together. Things that make you go hm, right? that that pointed towards, you know, some of the people who ended up in the crosshairs of the of law enforcement. But how those things unravel is breathtaking

When 18-year-old Jessica Curran's body was found behind a Mayfield Middle School in 2000, the crime scene was handled sloppily, to say the least. Evidence went missing. The Mayfield Police Department was corrupt, and as a result, they dropped the ball, and the ball fell through the grate and into the sewer. Their original suspect, Jeremy Adams, slipped through their incompetent fingers. Then, after a year of stagnation, a new story line formed around Susan Greth, the local sleuth. Suddenly, memories started to change.

With Susan's help, Victoria Caldwell and a few others came forward to law enforcement with their new story that Quincy Cross had killed Jessica Curran. But there are glaring issues with this second attempt at justice. We know the justice system is flawed, but digging into the intricacies of a case like this reveals just how deep the roots of corruption can grow. This is a complicated story, but if you've been listening to our show for many years, you'll keep up just fine. You're not a sword and scale regular listener and you don't know what you're doing, right? I mean, you you that doesn't make you mean you're going to be right all the time, but you're more informed than 99% of the general public if you're listening to Sword and Scale on a regular basis. So, I'm a podcast fan. Um, and I True Crime podcasts are my jam. And maybe that sounds terrible, but it's true. But this one, I believe, is as good as any that

you've ever heard that I've ever heard. Jason Flom isn't just a huge name in the music industry. He's one of the founding members of the Innocence Project. I'm sure you've heard of it. And I'm not just being nice to him because he's kissing my ass. My origin story goes back to 1993 when I randomly picked up a newspaper on my way in a taxi to go somewhere. And there was a story about a kid named Steven Lennon who was serving 15 to life on a non-violent first offense cocaine possession charge in a maximum security prison in New York State. And it was in the paper because his mother, who was just a mother who wanted her son back, right?

She wasn't like a any influential person. Had no particular means. She was just a regular everyday person from Rome, New York. And she had been petitioning for clemency for her son. He had already been in for eight years. He was 32. I was 32. At this point, I had been sober almost 8 years. And I was like, this is too close for comfort. That could have been me, right? I'm not a religious guy, but therefore the grace of whatever you believe in goes I. Right? So a major polit political figure at the time had asked the governor to grant clemency to her son and he had refused which is why it was in the newspaper. So I just thought this is insane. I didn't know that we put people in prison for 15 years to life for a non-violent burst offense cocaine possession charge. Like ah I was like this is you know it freaked me out and I decided I had to try to do something knowing nothing at all. I'm a

32-year-old ANR guy aspiring to make my way in the music industry. And I called the mother on the phone. Her name was Shirley. Her name number was in the phone book luckily. I offered to send some money um to get a new lawyer. She said they had exhausted all their appeals and it was hopeless. And one thing led to another. I called up the only criminal defense lawyer I knew at the time, a guy named Bob Kina. He represented Stone Temple Pilots in Skid Row and they were getting arrested weekly back then. Those of your listeners who are old enough to remember would remember that. Got him to agree.

He agreed to take the case pro bono. He said it was hopeless, but he was going to try. And six months later, we ended up in a courtroom in Malone, New York. And I sat there holding Mrs. Lennon's hand. Her husband Stan was on the other side. Steven was there in shackles as if he was some, you know, serial killer or something, right? And a nonviolent first offender. And the judge was this old guy with white hair. And I was like, "This is not going to go well." But it did. And he banged that gavvel down and sent even home. And that was my moment. I said, "This is I I didn't know I had a superpower, but if I do, this is it, and I'm going to use it as much as I can for as long as I can, and I've never looked back. I've never stopped." That's literally half a lifetime ago for me.

So, from there, I learned about an organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, now called FAMM. I became their first board member. And soon after that, I learned about the work of the Innocence Project. Barry Shack and Peter Newfeld had started the Innocence Project in the early 90s. And what I saw on TV was even another level of insanity, which was a case where this guy had been scheduled to be executed. And these guys, these two geniuses had come along with their law books and their microscopes and their knowledge of science. And they found the DNA and they identified it and they proved that he could not have been the person that committed this crime. And he was not only not executed, he was freed. And I said, "That's the craziest thing I've ever heard." and I rushed down to their office and I walked in and I said, "I don't know what you guys need me to do, but I'll do it and and I'll do more."

And so myself and a guy named Jack Taylor became the first two board members of the Innocence Project. So founding board member, not the founders because the founders are Barry and Peter, but um you know, who are heroes of mine. And so I've been, you know, working on these issues ever since. And u and I'll never stop as long as I'm breathing. Jason's decades of experience have helped him and his team to sus out false claims of innocence. Sometimes a guy saying he's been wrongfully convicted really did commit the crime.

In fact, that's often the case. But Jason is confident that this isn't what happened with Quincy Cross. I'm so glad I got the opportunity to tell you the story. So, after I heard about the case from Sherlock Homeboy, [snorts] there's another case, another Kentucky case I've been working on for some time of a guy named James Mallerie. And he's been in prison, oh my god, for I mean, pretty much since he was 11. I've been working on trying to help free him. And I happened to be on the phone with him not too long after I first heard about this crazy case.

And I said to him, "James, you're not going to believe this. I just got involved in another Kentucky case. It's this horrible case where this poor girl was 18 years old and you know, just a beautiful young girl starting her life." And, you know, was set on fire behind a middle school. And he goes, "Oh, you're talking about the Quincy Cross case?" I'm like, "Yeah, Quincy Cross." He goes, "Oh, man." He goes, "That motherfucker's innocent." I'm like, "He he's I go, what?" He goes, "Oh, yeah." He says, "He's I He's definitely I know he's innocent." I go, "How do you know he's innocent?" He goes, "Man, I was in jail with him." [snorts] He says, "He's a good dude." He goes, "I read his transcripts. I know the case inside and out. That guy's definitely innocent." I go, "He's definitely innocent." He goes, "No, I'm telling you, he's really, really innocent." I go, "How are you saying he's really, really, really

innocent?" He said, "Well, because, dude," he goes, "The actual killer was my cellmate." He goes, "Look it up in the DOC records." And he confessed to me and everybody else in the jail. And he goes, I know every detail of the case. He told it all to me. And he goes, "And I'm from that area, so I recognize I know some of the people."

The cellmate, this guy said, had confessed to the murder was Jeremy Adams. I was like, "Oh my god, what are the odds of this?" And you know, the first thing I did was call I actually called Barry Sheek at the Innocence Project. I said, "Barry, is this hearsay?" He goes, "No, that's a statement against interest." if he actually and and I said to James, I don't want to put you in a in a bad way, like if you're, you know, I don't want you to be labeled as somebody who who told on somebody who confessed to you. He said, "No, no, in this case, it doesn't matter because he confessed to so many people and everybody here knows that Quincy ain't the guy." So, he goes, "I'll sign affidavits. I'll do whatever you want."

I don't I don't know the exact number, but there could be as many as 15 people who have come forward either with affidavit or with statements that Jeremy confessed to them. And let's not forget that Jessica's best friend, someone who hasn't changed her story over the years, told police that Jessica knew her baby's father had to be one of two men. She had a paternity test done and it came back negative for the first guy. So, you know, but let's now take a moment and revisit people who did change their stories because that's the crux of the case. There were witnesses who have come forward and talked about how the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, State Police threatened them with really terrible things, taking their children away, sending them to prison for the rest of their life, jabbing them with a needle. They conducted these very unorthodox interrogations in a hotel instead of at the police station. You

know, the whole thing is really pretty grotesque. And when you hear, which you will hear, these people come forward and tell their truth, the pain is palpable as they talk about how they were made to lie under these threats. And they were kids, you know, so they were they were kids. Some of them were troubled. One was a crack uh you know was addicted to crack and that's how you end up in this situation. Jason hosts his own podcast called Wrongful Conviction. He's the founder of the parent company Lava for Good, a media company that partners with the Innocence Project. His team spent several years digging into the case and the result was a full season of their show Bone Valley. Go check it out on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

At first, when the team reached out to interview Victoria Caldwell, she seemed almost afraid to talk about the case.

I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk about I don't want to piss these people off and they're very powerful. So,

piss them off in what kind of way. What you mean powerful? You making me nervous. Maybe I should rethink having this conversation.

They're two very powerful people. Eventually, they coaxed Victoria and others to talk. I really feel like my I guess my statement that I gave on video was stopped lots of times and I was told what to say

and people could see the discrepancies who was telling you what to say from Leer to the KBI. Um

how did they get you to say what they got you to say? What happened? They told me they'll stick a needle on my arm on the elevator at the kind like jury in Paduka Kentucky.

In case you couldn't understand what she was saying in context, Victoria says they threatened to do all this at the Drury Inn in Paduca, Kentucky. That's the hotel KBI conducted the interviews at. Venicia Stubblefield, the peripheral witness who corroborated parts of Victoria's second version of events, signed an affidavit, admitting that she gave false testimony at the behest of law enforcement. Another witness admitted that she had been willing to testify for money and said that officers threatened to put her in jail or take her kids away if she didn't keep lying.

And remember, all of these people were implicated by the story. They served their short sentences and years later they've recanted. Sounds like a bunch of shitty police work if you ask me. But hey, what am I other than an internet sleuth? They took plea deals cuz Quincy went to trial first and he when he was convicted and sentenced to life, you know, for the other people, they were looking at a similar fate. And if they were when they were offered a deal, this is Sophie's choice. But you can't blame them for taking it. Um this is some this is some small town stuff and you know if you're if you're looking at uh you know basically a living death sentence, right? Um and the prosecution certainly in Prince Quincy's case asked for him to get the death penalty, then I you know that's that's a that's a choice that you can I hope nobody that's listening ever has to make that choice, but you can you can understand how that

choice could have been made by people who were actually innocent. It happens all the time. Well, unsurprisingly, the lowest sentences were the ones who testified for the government. Um, two of them, and there's so many people, there were nine, right? And I can't even keep them all straight in my head, but when you hear the podcast, you'll know because that's the awesome power of the government, right? They can they can say to you, you know, you give us information on so- and so, and you know, we're going to we're going to make sure things go well for you. So, the sentences were, I mean, almost ceremonial in those cases, right?

because um if that's the right word. And the power of the government doesn't stop there. In this case, Jason's team at Lava for Good and the Kentucky Innocence Project separately uncovered evidence that Victoria Caldwell had been paid by the state and was essentially put in their witness protection program, relocating her to North Carolina and funding her entire lifestyle while the case was being built. Records show that the Attorney General's office and Kentucky State Police were reimbursing her from February 2007 through January of 2008, almost a year. They paid for rent, utilities groceries restaurants gas car repairs, clothing, phone cards, and even purchases from places like sex shops.

Yeah. Yeah. That's where your taxes are going. Believe it or not, I read an article from some time ago that there was a rumor that uh some cop named O'Neal that

Uhhuh. Was there ever any monetary exchange between you or him? What do you mean monetary?

Money? Did Did he send you money at all? He's always given me money. Okay. When you say money, what kind of money? Are we talking like a couple hundred bucks just to get by or we talking like a couple grand to help?

More than a couple grand, but he's always taking care of me. Is it cash check? No cash. Always cash.

You meet in public places or he comes to you? How does that work? No, he comes to my house.

At trial, when the defense asked about this, KBI downplayed it, acting as if they'd only paid for rent and utilities. This wasn't an isolated incident either. Another state witness said officers paid her $100 to make controlled calls, cash for cooperation, all while she was in the grips of drug addiction. But all of this is just the tip of the iceberg. Let's get back to Susan Gbreth and Tom Mangold for the moment. Susan was actually the very first person to put Victoria Caldwell in touch with the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation for a second round of questioning. She steered the narrative prosecutors eventually ran with. And she had a motive much deeper than just a cursory interest in this case. She was in a relationship with the mother of the obvious suspect, Jeremy um Adams. And it seems like she found something to do. I think she was bored and she found this opportunity to become famous, important, whatever it was she

was after and at the same time helped to steer the cops away from the son of her partner, relationship, whatever they want to call that, you know, to her her lover. Um, and then of course in order to finish that job, she had to pin it on somebody else. And to think that this woman was allowed behind the crime scene tape. She was given backstage access to the evidence rooms, told authorities who to interview, sat in those very same police interviews, discussed her theories with the Kentucky State Police, and even testified at Quincy's trial.

She inserted herself into this crime to a degree that is unprecedented. I don't think we'll ever know all of it because there weren't records made of all the conversations, but what we do know is that she was given a level of access that is is confounding to say the least. And not just access, but influence. She was allowed to steer the investigation as if she was some senior official uh empowered to run roughshod over this whole this whole thing. And you know all those years later she starts building this case based entirely on circumstantial evidence and rumors and innuendo. And then that takes on a life of its own when the authorities get involved and start getting these people in a room.

Again, a room in a hotel. It is a hotel, but it's I don't want to conjure up something fancy. It certainly wasn't anything fancy. But why? Why? Why? Why? I mean, wouldn't you want I mean, how basic is it to take someone to the police station and do it there?

But hotel interviews are really at the bottom of the list when it comes to the issues with this case. It's really heartbreaking, not just because of what happened to Quincy, who got the worst of it because he got life without parole and he's been in for almost a quarter of a century, but what happened to these other people, you know, the ones who were forced to testify or the ones who just got caught up in it because of Susan. I mean, Jeff Burton, you know, who's who's a a white kid, um, who got caught up in this, he never met Quincy, you know, he doesn't know anything about this. He didn't, you know, he wasn't a troubled kid. He was a good kid. He was a young father making his way. [snorts] But when uh when Susan became convinced that there was a couple of white people involved, she just went searching for some white people that she could sort of rope into this thing. And she found out

that there was a couple of parties in Mayfield. Uh one of the nights in question, she found out he was at one of the parties and that was good enough. And so literally he he knows nothing about this and he ended up serving you know many years in prison um and still suffering to this day. And the ripple effect of all of this, how it hurts the community, taking him, just take Jeffrey alone, leaving aside uh, you know, so many of the other people who were wrongly targeted and ultimately so badly hurt. Um, you know, Denanisha, Victoria, Jeff Burton, we talked about, Tamara Caldwell, each one of those people has people that love them. Some of them had children that they left behind. All of them have scars that that don't easily heal, you know, from this horrific experience of being betrayed by people who their taxes go to pay um in service of somebody who skated.

Quincy was convicted in 2008. He lost his first appeals by 2010. After three more attempts to get his case revisited, he was denied. For several years now, Jason, his team at Lava for Good and the Innocence Project have been pulling out all the stops trying to free him. I called Joe Curran. I spoke to David Cross, the dads of the victim and the per and and the and the wrongfully convicted man. [sighs and gasps] I believe he's wrongfully convicted. Again, listen, make your own judgment. And I said, I got to help. And one of the things I've done over the years is try to appeal to governors and even presidents for clemency in situations where I know wrong has been done. And it's a it's a power that's vested in these people because they are the last, you know, stop gap in a in a system that gets it wrong far too often. You know, there's that great saying from the English jurist William Blackstone who

said, "It's better that 10 guilty men go free than that one innocent should suffer." And [snorts] so in this case, I thought, let me try to reach out to the governor, you know, because this this has got to change. And when you've got the victim's father advocating for the guy who's wrongfully convicted, that's powerful, you know, that should go a long way. Um, I feel connected to Kentucky. Um, you know, my my wife's father is Muhammad Ali, so you know, he's a Louisville, so I reached out. I didn't know I don't know the governor. I met him only once, uh, actually at at the Ali Center in Louisville, but only for a minute. But I didn't know him back then. I'd never met him. But I was able to get somebody in a position of significant power and influence in the highest levels of government. I won't name names on the phone. And I figured he'll give me three or four minutes just to I don't want to say humor me because

there's nothing funny about it, but to, you know, plate me. And I ended up speaking to this person for 26 minutes. I remember that cuz I remember looking at my phone and going, "Damn, that was a long conversation." And he was like, "Oh my god, this is the craziest case." And you know, Mayfield, Kentucky, there was a tornado there recently and you know, we know the mayor and you know, we're going to get involved like this. This has got, you know, he was like, he was almost breathless. And I've never had a conversation with a person in position like that. I've had a lot of conversations, but never with somebody who's like so [snorts] enthused to get involved and help.

Usually it's very, you know, monotonal, you know, relatively curt. And then he called me back that night at home. Kids running around making noise in the background. He's like, I just want to make sure I got this straight. And he's going through details of thing. I'm like, oh my god. I called Mr. Cross. I'm like, I think we're going to get somewhere with this. This is I mean, I hate to say that because you never want to raise expectations, but I was like, this is unbelievable. this this really seems like they're really interested in this injustice.

And then he ghosted me, never heard back again, tried reaching out. And I'm the farthest thing from a conspiracy person, but one might speculate that perhaps he was excitedly talking to somebody else, I don't know who, who said to him, "Back off. Leave that one alone." Victoria Caldwell has flipped back and forth over the years, recanting her statements and then turning around and saying that she was actually telling the truth. Jason's team uncovered emails between Susan Greth and Tom Mangold from all the way back in 2012 where Tom wrote that there's a quote teeny weeny itsybitsy chance we've got this whole [ __ ] murder story wrong. In public though, he doesn't want to talk about the case. After the Kentucky Innocence Project got involved, CNN covered their progress. They reached out to Tom for comment and he said, quote, "If your project is any attempt or reference to the fact that Quincy Cross and all the

others who were convicted of Jesse's murder might be innocent, then I want nothing to do with it. If it's anything else, I'd be pleased to help."

Quincy is still in prison. I spoke to him today, actually. He's excited that we're um today as we're recording, not today as anyone's listening, as people listen whenever they listen. But um yes, I spoke to him today. I've spoken to him many times. He's relentlessly optimistic. He's not bitter. He really just wants his story to be heard and he wants justice, not just for himself, but for Jessica and for the others. I I've interviewed hundreds of people on the wrongful conviction podcast who've been either, you know, who are either on death row or they're in prison for life or they've been they've been freed after serving 10, 20, 44 years more, 48 years like Glenn Simmons in prison. And every one of them is, you know, optimistic, thoughtful, even I mean they they they exude this sort of grace, you know, and it's just mystifying and inspiring to hear them and it puts uh it puts gratitude in my

attitude and puts any other problems that we all have in perspective. There's still uh some legal remedy. I'm trying to remember what it is. Um, but he does have, yes, he does have some court proceedings still to come. Um, there's some discovery being done. So, follow along. And I believe that there's still a a strong chance. I have to cling to that belief that he can be exonerated in court. But the other um last option is if if that's what it takes, then I hope that the governor, this governor, the next governor will take a hard look at this case and and see what now is is clear to anybody who takes a serious look at it, which is that the wrong guy's in prison and he's been in for a very long time. For Jessica's parents, the system's failures have a different cost. the paperwork, the headlines, the atlas retellings, none of it brings their daughter back.

When they tell you, you know, well, something good will come out of this and things will get better with time and you could ask my wife and it's just like it happened last week. It's it it don't get better. You learn to live with it, but it never gets better. We're going to miss her until the day we're gone. No doubt about it. and so will everybody else in our family cuz she had that big of an impact on all of us and I would say most of her friends. She was just that kind of person. The fire that took Jessica Curran's life never really stopped burning. Susan Gobith reignited the sparks. Maybe hoping the flames would clear the debris and reveal the truth. or maybe to burn away evidence that pointed towards Jeremy Adams.

In the end, those flames weren't a tool of justice. They were chaotic, aimless, driven by something other than truth. And they eventually consumed everything in their path. Heat. Heat. That's going to do it for this episode and this year. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back after a short break.

Mike, what's up my man? This is Ken from Tennessee. Listen, first thing I got to say is that a law as a law enforcement officer, it's truly makes my blood boil sometimes when you say that you don't and people on your show should not talk to cops. As much of an advocate as you are for the victims that you portray that are led on your show, you saying don't talk to the cops totally accurate to me. But nonetheless, I got to say I was one of those guys who never liked podcasts. I thought they were for weird people who had no good taste in music.

When I was introduced to your show, I was I got to say I was into the show. Obviously, I drive a lot for my job. So, when somebody gets in my car, they hear what's on the radio. The looks I get are pretty astounding. So, from your law enforcement fan base, I say to you, stay safe and keep up the good work, my dude. Thanks.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Episode 332"?

Mike (Guest), Elena Thomas (Guest), Susan Galbreth (Guest), Tom Mangold (Guest), Jason Flom (Guest), Joe Curran (Guest), Jeremy Adams (Guest), Victoria Caldwell (Guest).

What is "Episode 332" about?

This content explores a chilling incident that occurred in Mayfield, Kentucky, in August 2000, revealing how a seemingly ordinary morning led to the discovery of something disturbing outside a middle school. It highlights themes of unease and tension, suggesting that beneath the surface of everyday life, dark realities can emerge.

What is mentioned in this Sword and Scale episode?

27 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Quincy Cross, Jessica Curran, Victoria Caldwell, Jeremy Adams, Susan Galbreth, Mayfield Middle School. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Episode 332"?

The episode runs 1 h 11 min; the transcript is about 11,345 words in 126 timestamped sections.

More from Sword and Scale

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.