Transcript

How Gavin Newsom Became the Democrats’ 2028 Frontrunner | The Ezra Klein Show

From The Ezra Klein Show · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 49 min · 21,341 words · 313 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "How Gavin Newsom Became the Democrats’ 2028 Frontrunner | The Ezra Klein Show", an episode of The Ezra Klein Show published December 10, 2025 (1 h 49 min, about 21,341 words). It mentions 301 people, works and ideas, including Donald Trump, Governor Gavin Newsom, California, Ezra Klein, Democratic Party.

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on Gavin Newsom, the Governor of California, and his emerging status as a potential frontrunner for the 2028 Democratic presidential nomination. Despite initial skepticism about his electability due to perceptions of California's governance and his profile as a liberal figure, Newsom's leadership and willingness to take risks have positioned him favorably within the party during a time of crisis, showcasing his ability to adapt to the current political landscape.

Key takeaways

  • Newsome's podcast gambit shows he's not afraid to rile his own camp for political savvy.
  • California's cost of living is Newsome’s albatross; liberal policies meet harsh economic reality.
  • Betting odds favor Newsome for 2028, upending stereotypes about politically ‘unwinnable’ profiles.
  • Newsome’s social media trolling of Trump: confirmation that politics now equals infotainment.
  • California breeds influential conservatives, proving political diversity despite its blue reputation.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: California, Democratic Party, Democratic Party, Governor Gavin Newsom
  2. – 20:00: Democratic Party, Donald Trump, Charlie Kirk, Podcast
  3. – 30:00: California, Donald Trump, Governor Gavin Newsom, Joe Biden
  4. – 40:00: Housing, California, Adam Savage, Michael Savage
  5. – 50:00: California, Sean Bannon, Housing, Donald Trump
  6. – 1:00:00: California, wealth tax, Florida, Sean Bannon
  7. – 1:10:00: California, Democratic Party, Social Media, Donald Trump
  8. – 1:20:00: California, Democratic Party, J.D. Vance, Joe Biden
  9. – 1:30:00: Democratic Party, Democratic Party, San Francisco, Donald Trump
  10. – 1:40:00: Democratic Party, Donald Trump, California, Republican Party
  11. – 1:49:28: Social Media, Attorney General of the United States, California, Ezra Klein

Notable quotes from "How Gavin Newsom Became the Democrats’ 2028 Frontrunner | The Ezra Klein Show"

  • That Gavin Newsome would have a chance if he ran for president someday. That was less widely believed. Liberal white guy from a state the country considers badly governed. Just didn't.
    about Governor Gavin Newsom · at
  • Election in 2028 unless we wake up to the code red what's happening in this country. He began trolling Trump on social media, talking about the president in the terms of…
    about Donald Trump · at
  • But at a time when the politics of affordability are paramount, California routinely ranks as the least affordable state in the nation. Nuome has signed many good bills, done…
    about California · at
  • Course. So I often think about the ' 04 analogy. I don't think I think probably the Democratic party was more shattered and broken after 2024, but I think people who don't…
    about Democratic Party · at
  • Rhetoric reality landing flat because I do think there's something pretty deep here. When you used to defend Biden to me and to others, the word you would use about his…
    about Joe Biden · at
  • Reflective case that both parties, not just the Republican party, but Democratic party, was complicit in the hollowing out of our infrastructure and our manufacturing base.…
    about Democratic Party · at
  • Next, level., No, no, Republican, governor ever did any of these things. I mean Trump is destroying ranchers and small businesses and farmers and they're celebrating the guy. I…
    about Republican Party · at
  • I, was, very, careful, not, to, ask, you, about 2028, so I'm not letting you go there yet. but as we sort of wrap a little bit, I did want to talk about a different tension paradox cont.
    about Ezra Klein · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Donald Trump — Person · Referenced political antagonist · 16 mentions · first at
    Frequently referenced as the opposing national figure whose actions and rhetoric shape Newsom's critiques and strategy discussion.
  • Governor Gavin Newsom — Person · Main guest · 9 mentions · first at
    Primary interview subject — California governor discussing his governance, outreach to the right, housing, AI regulation, and Democratic Party strategy.
  • Ezra Klein — Person · Interviewer / host (context of podcast network) · 2 mentions · first at
    Host/interviewer referenced in the transcript as the one conducting the interview with Newsom and framing questions.
  • Joe Biden — Person · Referenced political ally / subject of defense · 5 mentions · first at
    Referenced in discussion of federal policy, Democratic governance, and Newsom's defense of Biden-era policies while exploring why voters felt disconnected.
  • Sean Bannon — Person · Referenced guest on Newsom's podcast / ideological interlocutor · 10 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as one of Newsom's surprising podcast guests; Newsom describes learning from Bannon's critiques (industrial policy, populism).
    You're, looking, for, threads, of, of interest and agreement. I've watched Steve Bannon tell you repeatedly how the 2020 election was stolen. You just let the pitches go, right?
  • Charlie Kirk — Person · Referenced guest on Newsom's podcast / conservative organizer · 4 mentions · first at
    Named as early podcast guest; Newsom discussed Kirk's sincerity, organizing power, faith emphasis and outreach to youth.
    You have been learning across a couple of them. So let's start with Kirk. What for you was the most resonant point Charlie Kirk made and I don't mean her that you have to have…
  • Michael Savage — Person · Referenced podcast guest / conservative radio host · 5 mentions · first at
    Listed among early guests; Newsom described Savage's cultural importance to conservative media and his views on borders, language, and culture.
    Trace back, you could deeply argue started with Michael Savage. That's why we thought he was an important guest. If I were running, I would run in a campaign of borders…
  • Pete Wilson — Person · Historical reference · 2 mentions · first at
    Former California governor discussed as pivotal figure in 1994 politics (Prop 187) shaping modern California conservatism.
    He is backing Proposition 187 which would deny illegal immigrants services like health care and public education for their children. And on that same ballot was the end of affirmative action.
  • J.D. Vance — Person · Referenced expert · 4 mentions · first at
    U.S. Senator and author discussed in the context of political philosophy and strategies.
    So,, but, I, want, you, to, expand, what, that point means. So what JD Vance who I think is the most interesting speeches of any Republican politician right now because he's the one trying to build a philosophy.
  • Ben Shapiro — Person · Referenced right-wing media founder · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as part of California-born conservative media ecosystem (Daily Wire).
    You, have, Ben, Shapiro, and, the, Daily Wire begin in California. Steven Miller grows, up, in, California., Peter, Keel, Curtis Yarvin was based in California.
  • Kathleen Brown — Person · Historical reference / political opponent · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as Pete Wilson's 1994 Democratic challenger; context for state political history.
    One, of, the, hardest, fought, state, races, is in California where incumbent Republican Governor Pete Wilson is facing Democratic challenger Kathleen Brown and where the issue of illegal immigration.
  • Barack Obama — Person · Referenced political figure (Democratic rebuilding example) · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as the beneficiary of post-2004 Democratic organizing and infrastructure-building, illustrating party resilience and coalition-building.
    The president of the United States. You go back to Obama's brilliant speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
  • Jonathan Martin — Person · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Senior political columnist for Politico discussed in the context of political analysis.
    Far ahead of anyone else. Jonathan Martin, Politico's senior political columnist. He wrote a piece entitled, Amit it Gavin Newsome is the 2028 front runner. Look, I know it's…
  • Ron Brownstein — Person · Referenced analyst/journalist · 1 mention · first at
    Invoked for a conceptual frame (‘forces of restoration vs transformation’) to interpret modern conservative politics and backlash dynamics.
    Stop where things are going rather than preserve like the best of Yeah., I, mean,, Ron, Brownstein's, written, a lot about the forces of restoration in that context versus the…
  • Barack Obama — Person · Referenced political figure (rhetorical contrast) · 1 mention · first at
    Cited for the 2004 DNC speech as a symbol of a more unifying political rhetoric, contrasted with today’s polarization.
    The president of the United States. You go back to Obama's brilliant speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
  • Barack Obama — Person · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Former U.S. President mentioned in the context of Democratic Party leadership and policies.
    The president of the United States. You go back to Obama's brilliant speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
  • Barack Obama — Person · Referenced former president · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced as the culmination of a post-2004 Democratic rebuilding story and later as a contrast point for a more hopeful civic rhetoric (2004 DNC speech).
    The president of the United States. You go back to Obama's brilliant speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
  • Barack Obama — Person · Referenced political figure (historical comparison point) · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as the culmination of a Democratic rebuilding cycle after 2004, illustrating Newsom’s argument about party resilience and organizing leading to electoral success.
    The president of the United States. You go back to Obama's brilliant speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
  • Barack Obama — Person · Referenced political figure · 1 mention · first at
    Invoked as the culmination of a post-2004 Democratic rebuilding story (organizing, institutions, electoral recovery) that Newsom uses as an analogy for the party's current moment.
    The president of the United States. You go back to Obama's brilliant speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
  • Joe Rogan — Person · Referenced media figure · 1 mention · first at
    Appears as an influence in the algorithmic media diet of young men (including Newsom’s son), illustrating the attention ecosystem Newsom is trying to understand.
    Sky Peterson is an unbelievable thought leader up in Canada and Joe Rogan is the best and Charlie Kirk, you really get to need to know him, Dad.
  • Elon Musk — Person · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Entrepreneur mentioned in the context of business and political influence.
    Up in the state, made their wealth in the state, still have businesses in the state. Elon Musk put his R&D headquarters back, world headquarters back in California. His AI…
  • Andrew Ross-Sorkin — Person · Referenced journalist / interlocutor · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as someone Ezra Klein/podcasters discussed topics with; appears in ancillary discussion contexts.
    I, was, listening, to, talk, with, Andrew Alcin, my colleague at Dealbook, yesterday. And you talked, you guys talked a bit about wealth tax and separately, you talked about baby bonds.
  • Steven Little Miller — Person · Referenced conservative figure (brief) · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in a list of right-leaning figures that came from California; low-confidence single mention.
    You, have, Ben, Shapiro, and, the, Daily Wire begin in California. Steven Miller grows, up, in, California., Peter, Keel, Curtis Yarvin was based in California.
  • Barack Obama — Person · Referenced political figure (contrast/idealism) · 2 mentions · first at
    Cited for the 2004 DNC speech about unity ('not red and blue') as a contrast to current polarization and as an aspirational rhetorical model.
    The president of the United States. You go back to Obama's brilliant speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
  • Adam Savage — Person · 7 mentions · first at
    He began interviewing people like Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon, Nuke Gingrich, Michael Savage. that podcast pissed Democrats off. if I heard from any of them, but I watched him…
  • Frederick Douglass — Person · 7 mentions
  • Joe Manchin — Person · 7 mentions
  • Atrioc — Person · 6 mentions
  • Dennis Kearney — Person · 3 mentions
  • Zohran Mamdani — Person · 3 mentions
  • Plutarch — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    In California what, does, it, do, to, a, society?, Well,, I was quoting Plutarch yesterday who warned the Athenians in I don't know 50 70 AD. Don't quote me. he said the…
  • Newt Gingrich — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Newsome launched a podcast where he began interviewing people like Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon, Nuke Gingrich, Michael Savage. that podcast pissed Democrats off. if I heard from…
  • Curtis Yarvin — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Wire begin in California. Steven Miller grows, up, in, California., Peter, Keel, Curtis Yarvin was based in California.
  • Nancy Pelosi — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Built this bottomup movement that brought us back into the majority with Nancy Pelosi two years later and then 2008 we had 53% popular vote most since 1964 to get Barack Obama…
  • Doug Hendrickson — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Marshmallow Lynch, Doug, Hendrickson, and, Gavin, Newsome,, and, you're, listening to politic.
  • St. Francis — Person · 1 mention · first at
    That in a spiritual sense. in Jesuit upbringing really has defined me. The St. Francis, my our patron saint in San Francisco, many parts one body. When one part suffers, we all…
  • Sky Peterson — Person · 1 mention · first at
    On because his algorithms are saying that Andrew Tate is innocent. and Sky Peterson is an unbelievable thought leader up in Canada and Joe Rogan is the best and Charlie Kirk, you really get to need to know him, Dad.
  • Andrew Alcin — Person · 1 mention · first at
    I, was, listening, to, talk, with, Andrew Alcin, my colleague at Dealbook, yesterday. And you talked, you guys talked a bit about wealth tax and separately, you talked about baby bonds.
  • Ted Cruz — Person · 1 mention · first at
    That I think is important. And I said it yesterday, I'll say it to you. That's hard for me to say. Thank you, Ted Cruz.
  • Pat Brown — Person · 1 mention · first at
    And robotics and space and the future and dominating that space. We have $180 billion. It's the largest since Pat Brown. $180 billion. It's build.ca.gov.

Books & papers

  • Built to Last: Successful Habits of Visionary Companies — Book · Referenced work / formative influence · 3 mentions · first at
    Newsom cites the book as an influential early read framing 'both/and' and endurance thinking.
    Builder versus a timekeeper. Talked about the genius of an versus the tyranny of war. It changed my mindset and my outlook political terms, not just in business terms. I hate…
  • SB53 — Book · Referenced legislation (misclassified as book in input) · 3 mentions
    Mentioned in context as California regulatory framework for AI (Newsom referenced SB53 as first-in-nation AI regulatory framework).
  • Meditations of Marcus Aurelius — Book · Referenced work / philosophical influence · 1 mention · first at
    Newsom references Meditations / Marcus Aurelius and Stoic practice as influential reading for podcasters/politicians.
    Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. And I'm Where the hell have I been or where's that book?
  • Amit it Gavin Newsome is the 2028 front runner — Book · Referenced work · 26 mentions
    Article title referenced in the discussion about Gavin Newsome's political future.
    Far ahead of anyone else. Jonathan Martin, Politico's senior political columnist. He wrote a piece entitled, Amit it Gavin Newsome is the 2028 front runner. Look, I know it's…
  • 1929 — Book · 3 mentions
  • Applebee's America — Book · 1 mention · first at
    We, were, I, was, reading, books, about, going to Applebees, Applebee's America. It was all about, it was about appearing less frank. We can't have, Hermes ties anymore. it was all about the heart. It was I mean.
  • Citizenville — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Government doesn't deliver is also corrosive. You have a great metaphor in your book Citizenville where, you, say, that, people, treat government like a vending machine.

Companies & orgs

  • Democratic Party — Company · Business focus · 16 mentions · first at
    Political party discussed in terms of its future, leadership, and strategies.
  • Republican Party — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    Political party discussed in terms of its strategies and influence.
    About the WTO and NAFTA. He's making a reflective case that both parties, not just the Republican party, but Democratic party, was complicit in the hollowing out of our…
  • Office of Digital Innovation — Company · Referenced organizational initiative (state office) · 1 mention · first at
    Newsom references having started an Office of Digital Innovation (ODI) to modernize procurement and digital pilots in CA.
    We have been doing it. I started Doge.
  • Claremont Institute — Company · Referenced ideological institution · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as intellectual home of some strands of modern conservatism/Trumpism; part of discussion on California-born right-wing thinkers.
    Wire begin in California. Steven Miller grows, up, in, California., Peter, Keel, Curtis Yarvin was based in California.
  • Democracy Alliance — Company · Referenced organization · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of rebuilding the Democratic Party's infrastructure and influence.
    Built Media Matters, we built Center for America Progress, we built, you know Democracy Alliance, we started organizing millennials, we started organizing Hispanics, we started…
  • Politico — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    News organization mentioned in the context of political journalism.
    Far ahead of anyone else. Jonathan Martin, Politico's senior political columnist. He wrote a piece entitled, Amit it Gavin Newsome is the 2028 front runner. Look, I know it's…
  • Daily Wire (company) — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    Conservative news and opinion website mentioned in the context of media influence.
    You, have, Ben, Shapiro, and, the, Daily Wire begin in California. Steven Miller grows, up, in, California., Peter, Keel, Curtis Yarvin was based in California.
  • Center for America Progress — Company · Historical reference · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as part of the Democratic Party's rebuilding efforts post-2004.
    Lost the Senate, we lost the House, we lost the presidency. and then we built Media Matters, we built Center for America Progress, we built, you know Democracy Alliance, we…
  • UC system — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    University system mentioned in the context of education and research.
    Tax credits. the UC system. how many more engineers, scientists, more Nobel laureates do we need? We have 13,700 active pending active patents in the UC system. Those…
  • Tesla, Inc. — Company · Referenced expert · 2 mentions · first at
    Company mentioned in the context of business and political influence.
    R&D for, that's why we have all the mobility out there in Zuk and that's why we have Whimo and the R&D work that's being done at Tesla and Skunk Works and Rivian and all of…
  • Fox News — Company · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    News organization mentioned in the context of media and political analysis.
    Your, debate, with, Ronda, Santis., It, was, on Fox News with Sean Hannity moderating. I went back and watched that the other day.
  • UCLA Speed Test — Company · Business focus · 2 mentions · first at
    Company mentioned in the context of sponsorships and business strategies.
    Best network based on analysis by UCLA speed test intelligence data 125.
  • Polyarket — Company · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Company mentioned in the context of political betting odds.
    If you look at the polyarket betting odds on who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee, Newsome is far ahead of anyone else. Jonathan Martin, Politico's senior political.
  • Breitbart — Company · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Media company mentioned in the context of political journalism.
    About the right. I am always struck by how, much, of the, modern, right, comes, out of California. Se Breitbart, California.
  • SpaceX — Company · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Company mentioned in the context of business and political influence.
    Headquarters back, world headquarters back in California. His AI company's in California. SpaceX was launched in California. Tesla exists because of California. He's a…
  • BYD — Company · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Company mentioned in the context of business and political influence.
    They're moving. I was down in BM. I was down in Brazil. BYD is everywhere.
  • UCLA Speed Test — Company · 2 mentions · first at
    They're now the best network according to the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance built-in security, and seamless.
  • supermobile.com — Company · 2 mentions · first at
    Satellite coverage. That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky.
  • Office of Digital Innovation (ODI) — Company · 2 mentions
  • WalletHub — Company · 2 mentions
  • Fortnite — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor.
  • The Daily Wire — Company · 1 mention · first at
    You, have, Ben, Shapiro, and, the, Daily Wire begin in California. Steven Miller grows, up, in, California., Peter, Keel, Curtis Yarvin was based in California.
  • Media Matters — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Lost the Senate, we lost the House, we lost the presidency. and then we built Media Matters, we built Center for America Progress, we built, you know Democracy Alliance, we…
  • Applebee's — Company · 1 mention · first at
    We, were, I, was, reading, books, about, going to Applebees, Applebee's America. It was all about, it was about appearing less frank. We can't have, Hermes ties anymore. it was all about the heart. It was I mean.
  • TwitchCon — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Growing. And I had a number of other interesting guests, Atriarch and others went down to TwitchCon and was there with a lot of gamers and really sort of trying to get into the…
  • Twitch — Company · 1 mention · first at
    It's not about Twitch. It's about what the hell you guys haven't done to address the crisis for so many young people and how they're feeling today. If I could boil it down to one word, it's.
  • Medicare — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Everything is so slow my, favorite, example, of, this, is, that, when Medicare passed, it took one year for the Medicare cards to go out. When Biden, in what was arguably the…
  • Office of Data Innovation — Company · 1 mention · first at
    I, agree., It's, Office, of, Digital Innovation. Now it's Office of Data Innovation. So, it's I made it even worse. Again, we've reformed our procurement. We've reformed our civil service system. we have advanced more.
  • Marin General — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Okay. Here in Marin County so, I'm, rushed, to, Marin, General.
  • AI Company — Company · 1 mention · first at
    State. Elon Musk put his R&D headquarters back, world headquarters back in California. His AI company's in California. SpaceX was launched in California. Tesla exists because…
  • League of Cities — Company · 1 mention · first at
    That's the challenge. It's that labyrinth. By the way, these folks aren't happy. League of Cities not happy. Our county partners are not happy. we are asserting ourselves in ways that the state has never asserted ourselves into local.
  • DealBook — Company · 1 mention · first at
    I, was, listening, to, talk, with, Andrew Alcin, my colleague at Dealbook, yesterday. And you talked, you guys talked a bit about wealth tax and separately, you talked about baby bonds which have always been a proposal I like.
  • Tax Foundation — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Something out right you've talked a lot about the California tax structure here California, ranks, according, to, tax foundation which is right leaning but honest second, for…
  • UC system — Company · 1 mention · first at
    We invest in that. Billions and billions of those tax dollars go back into R&D tax credits. the UC system. how many more engineers, scientists, more Nobel laureates do we need?…
  • build.ca.gov — Company · 1 mention · first at
    And dominating that space. We have $180 billion. It's the largest since Pat Brown. $180 billion. It's build.ca.gov.
  • Fortune 100 — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Energy, the daring, the creativity, all of that is present in California. My gosh. we have more Fortune 500 companies than we've had in a decade in California. We have more…
  • Rivian — Company · 1 mention · first at
    That's why we have Whimo and the R&D work that's being done at Tesla and Skunk Works and Rivian and all of these other companies that are investing in that future and we are…
  • Skunk Works — Company · 1 mention · first at
    That's why we have Whimo and the R&D work that's being done at Tesla and Skunk Works and Rivian and all of these other companies that are investing in that future and we are…
  • Santa Clara University — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Lot about that we you know it's many parts but one body in the spirit of father cause at Santa Clara University we're all bound together by this web mutuality but we have to…
  • Democratic Socialists — Company · 1 mention · first at
    One. and every flavor of the party is going to be represented from the Democratic Socialists, which are just the old progressives in my town or Green Party folks back when I…

Products & tech

  • Doge — Product · Referenced shorthand / nickname for Office of Digital Innovation · 1 mention · first at
    Newsom uses 'Doge' jokingly to refer to his Office of Digital Innovation (ODI) — not a commercial product promotion.
    We have been doing it. I started Doge.
  • Fortnite — Product · Incidental · 1 mention · first at
    Video game mentioned in passing during the podcast.
    Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor.
  • SuperMobile — Product · 2 mentions · first at
    To the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance built-in security…
  • Hermes ties — Product · 1 mention · first at
    All about, it was about appearing less frank. We can't have, Hermes ties anymore. it was all about the heart. It was I mean it's so familiar. So many of this stuff all this stuff echoes over and over again. But so you've.
  • Medicare cards — Product · 1 mention · first at
    My, favorite, example, of, this, is, that, when Medicare passed, it took one year for the Medicare cards to go out. When Biden, in what was arguably the most popular single…

Concepts & topics

  • Democratic Party — Concept · Core topic · 33 mentions · first at
    Central theme of the episode, discussing the future and leadership of the Democratic Party.
  • Republican Party — Concept · Core topic · 7 mentions · first at
    Discussed in contrast to the Democratic Party and in the context of political strategies.
  • Trumpism — Concept · Key argument · 4 mentions · first at
    Analyzed as a political movement and ideology that contrasts with Democratic values and strategies.
    Should have been perhaps communicated more effectively. but also it needs time to gestate. Trump's success is destroying not building. That's easy and you can destroy in…
  • Populism — Concept · Core topic · 3 mentions · first at
    Political philosophy discussed in the context of current political strategies and movements.
    Built in all these illustrations to keep the Chinese out of California. We were at peak immigration back then, peak populism out there in so many ways respect. Trump, Kernney…
  • Affordability crisis — Concept · Key argument · 2 mentions · first at
    Central issue discussed in relation to California's economic challenges.
    But at a time when the politics of affordability are paramount, California routinely ranks as the least affordable state in the nation. Nuome has signed many good bills, done…
  • Artificial Intelligence — Concept · Core topic · 1 mention · first at
    Discussed in the context of its impact on society, economy, and politics.
    How, are, you, I, think, AI, is, going, to, be, a big part of the next turn, of, politics dominant, dominant what, is, your, before, I, get, to, anything.
  • Social Media — Concept · Key argument · 9 mentions · first at
    Discussed in the context of its impact on politics and public attention.
    To dozens of places. They're being read by AI. Sometimes you're interviewing with it's become very dehumanized and dehumanizing, right? So, and hard to find a job and it's…
  • Ethnonationalism — Concept · Core topic · 9 mentions
    Political ideology discussed in the context of current political movements and strategies.
  • Medicare — Concept · Policy discussion · 1 mention · first at
    Discussed in the context of policy delays and political implications.
    They are endlessly justifying why everything is so slow my, favorite, example, of, this, is, that, when Medicare passed, it took one year for the Medicare cards to go out. When…
  • California Dream — Concept · Key argument · 1 mention · first at
    Concept discussed as part of California's identity and challenges.
    Don't live like that in California. It's always been abundance. That's what the There's only one dream. The American dream. Oh, and the California dream. And it's all about…
  • Universal Basic Income — Concept · Strategy · 1 mention · first at
    Economic policy discussed in the context of addressing wealth inequality and social issues.
    Done grants in California at scale and we have a lot of interesting pilots a lot of feedback but we're also looking at universal basic capital we're looking at this notion of a…
  • Modular Housing — Concept · Strategy · 2 mentions · first at
    Discussed as a potential solution to California's housing crisis.
    Important but issue of productivity goes to deeper questions now around can we look at new styles of construction. Are we going to promote at scale modular housing prefab…
  • Fortnite — Concept · Key argument · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as a cultural phenomenon and platform for engagement.
    Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor.
  • Stoicism — Concept · Framework · 1 mention · first at
    Philosophical concept mentioned in the context of personal development and leadership.
    I'm, telling, you, can't, can't, be, can't, be, a, podcaster, and not get into the Stoics.
  • Applebee's — Concept · Incidental mention · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned briefly in a discussion about political strategies.
    We, were, I, was, reading, books, about, going to Applebees, Applebee's America. It was all about, it was about appearing less frank. We can't have, Hermes ties anymore. it.
  • Housing — Concept · 14 mentions · first at
    They want to see results and that was reflected in 13 housing bills that I disproportionately had to assert well number of them I had to put in the budget in which you just don't do because it couldn't get.
  • Podcast — Concept · 13 mentions · first at
    It began right after the election when Newsome launched a podcast where he began interviewing people like Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon, Nuke Gingrich, Michael Savage. that podcast pissed Democrats off. if.
  • Democracy — Concept · 8 mentions · first at
    The ballot measure believe that redrawing congressional districts is the only way to protect democracy. People against it think it's a power grab.
  • Progressive tax — Concept · 6 mentions · first at
    The state all come from the state of California. What they don't like is the progressive tax. Tell me about it.
  • US presidency (2028 election) — Concept · 6 mentions
  • wealth tax — Concept · 5 mentions · first at
    Economy that speaking at the national level because there are interstate dynamics that would make a wealth tax at the state level harder that doesn't really begin to think…
  • Elections — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
    Time, Nim turned himself into the leader of the resistance. How Donald Trump is trying to rig the midterm elections and how I fear that we will not have an election in 2028…
  • baby bonds — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
    Yesterday. And you talked, you guys talked a bit about wealth tax and separately, you talked about baby bonds which have always been a proposal I like a lot.
  • Attorney General of the United States — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
    Everyone that says that is right. I mean there plenty of people that are already auditioning for president of the United States and they say we just need to focus on a positive…
  • MAGA movement — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Conversation with Charlie but where it seems to me I've fallen short with turning point USA and the and MAGA movement is they don't have a prescription to actually address the real and substantive issues but they sure as hell identify the.
  • Racial justice — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Francisco, many parts one body. When one part suffers, we all suffer. This notion of social justice, racial justice economic justice is deeply ingrained in me. and it's kind…
  • minimum wage — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    I'm talking about sort of my rhetorical posture, not my understanding. I mean look, I'm the guy that did $20 minimum wage for fast food workers. No other government in the country's done that.
  • Civil service — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Want to see results immediately. I get that. But we also believe in due process, believe in civil service believe in the rule of law, not the rule of dawn, not the law of the…
  • Data center — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Showing 300 or 400 plus thousand construction worker shortage and they can't even get enough data center workers to address some of the energy needs for AI, etc. and that's…
  • modular housing — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    To deeper questions now around can we look at new styles of construction. Are we going to promote at scale modular housing prefab housing is, offsite, you're, building, houses, like you would build a car and then assembling them on site.
  • Big Beautiful bill — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    California's progressive tax policies than I or others have made. He was arguing that Trump on the Big Beautiful bill made a mistake. He should have increased corporate taxes…
  • wealth inequality — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Wealth. The bottom 50% 4.2 trillion. What does that kind of wealth inequality which is prevalent in California? A lot of those rich people in California what, does, it, do, to, a, society?, Well,, I was quoting Plutarch yesterday.
  • Big Beautiful betrayal — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Things. I'm not making an excuse by making a point. The big beautiful bill was the big beautiful betrayal. I mean this was a disastrous bill for our kids and grandkids for…
  • super intelligence — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Know what they don't know but there seems to be some consensus that 3 to 5 years agi super intelligence that we're on the other side of the unknown that's pretty alarming and…
  • fairness in athletic competition — Concept · 2 mentions
  • NIMBYism — Concept · 2 mentions
  • Procurement reform — Concept · 2 mentions
  • trans rights — Concept · 2 mentions
  • tyranny of or — Concept · 2 mentions
  • Fortnite Friday — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor.

Places & events

  • California — Place · Setting · 55 mentions · first at
    The state governed by Gavin Newsom and a central topic in discussions about politics, economy, and social issues.
  • Silicon Valley — Place · Headquarters · 3 mentions · first at
    Highlighted as the epicenter of the global AI revolution and technological innovation.
    When I go back now to San Francisco, I feel this very strange tension of people racing headlong to invent something, that, even, they, are, not, sure.
  • 2028 Democratic nomination — Event · Core topic · 1 mention · first at
    Discussion about potential candidates and strategies for the 2028 Democratic presidential nomination.
    Entitled, Amit it Gavin Newsome is the 2028 front runner. Look, I know it's all very early to be talking about 2028. And in this episode, I try not to. But even putting the…
  • China — Place · Referenced location · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as a competitor in the context of economic and technological advancements.
    IRA, so we can compete against our most fierce competitor, China, in lowcarbon green growth. They delivered $369 billion. The reality though obviously is that Trump will take…
  • 2028 Presidential Election — Event · Core topic · 1 mention · first at
    Future political event discussed in the context of potential candidacies and political strategies.
    Entitled, Amit it Gavin Newsome is the 2028 front runner. Look, I know it's all very early to be talking about 2028. And in this episode, I try not to. But even putting the…
  • San Francisco — Place · Setting · 9 mentions · first at
    City in California mentioned in discussions about politics and social issues.
    And, as, a, Californian,, someone, who, has watched and covered Newsome for a long time, he has surprised me.
  • Huntington Beach — Place · Referenced city sued by state · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as one of the cities Newsom sued early in his governorship around housing accountability.
    First few days when I got into office by suing some cities in my state. put 47 on notice, sued Huntington Beach, have and have changed radically our approach to accountability…
  • COVID-19 pandemic — Event · Referenced event · 4 mentions
    Mentioned in the context of its impact on politics and society.
    Address these trend all and they're right and we there's a world post Trump and they're right but right now we have to protect and preserve our republic this democracy it's…
  • Prop 187 — Event · Key argument · 2 mentions · first at
    Historical California ballot proposition discussed in the context of immigration policy.
    He is backing Proposition 187 which would deny illegal immigrants services like health care and public education for their children. And on that same ballot was the end of affirmative action.
  • 2020 Democratic nominee — Event · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of discussing potential future leadership within the Democratic Party.
    If you look at the polyarket betting odds on who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee, Newsome is far ahead of anyone else. Jonathan Martin, Politico's senior political.
  • Texas — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    State mentioned in discussions about political strategies and policies.
    American people. You look at a statement that came out about a year ago from one analysis that showed that Texas took $71.1 billion more from the federal government than they…
  • Proposition 187 — Event · Core topic · 1 mention · first at
    Historical ballot initiative discussed in the context of immigration policies and political strategies.
    You know the response to that is also interesting and I think in many respects the response to Prop 187 and P Wilson's success has a lot of clues in terms of how the Democratic…
  • Marin General — Place · Setting in anecdote · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in a Michael Savage anecdote where Newsom described being rushed to Marin General hospital during a heart attack.
    About, 5, years, ago,, I, had, a, heart, attack.
  • Florida — Place · Setting · 4 mentions · first at
    State mentioned in discussions about political strategies and policies.
    Progressive tax states do. you have regressive tax states do the opposite. Florida and Texas, by the way most of those are taker states.
  • Fortnite — Event · Referenced event · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of Gavin Newsom engaging with popular culture.
    Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor.
  • Inflation Reduction Act — Event · Core topic · 1 mention · first at
    Legislation discussed in the context of economic policies and political strategies.
    Medicare passed, it took one year for the Medicare cards to go out. When Biden, in what was arguably the most popular single thing he passed during his presidency, certainly…
  • Prop 50 — Event · Key argument · 1 mention · first at
    California ballot proposition discussed in the context of political strategies.
    To enter into then these conversations that by the way helped aid in a bet the fact that we were able to raise almost $120 million in 90 days to get Prop 50 passed and to build…
  • Fortnite Friday — Event · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    Event mentioned in the context of youth engagement and political dialogue.
    Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor.
  • Fresno County — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    County in California mentioned in the context of economic development.
    We've, installed, more, green, energy projects this last year than any other time in history. 7,000 megawws. We just had the largest solar in Fresno County $5 billion 2300 megawatt project.
  • Marin County — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    County in California mentioned in the context of personal anecdotes.
    About, 5, years, ago,, I, had, a, heart, attack.
  • Proposition 50 — Event · Core topic · 1 mention · first at
    Ballot initiative discussed in the context of political strategies and policies.
    That's what Prop 50 is about in that reality. So it's situation the redistricting about it and that's what we've tried to do with our social media to enter into then these conversations that by the way helped aid in a bet the.
  • DGA — Event · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    Event mentioned in the context of political strategy.
    You throw to throw me into the mix with these 12 other remarkable leaders that all friends. I'm going to see them all tomorrow at the DGA. half of them governors, the other half great senators and legislative leaders in Congress.
  • Fresno — Place · 2 mentions · first at
    Projects this last year than any other time in history. 7,000 megawws. We just had the largest solar in Fresno County $5 billion 2300 megawatt project.
  • Fresno County — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Projects this last year than any other time in history. 7,000 megawws. We just had the largest solar in Fresno County $5 billion 2300 megawatt project.
  • Huntington Beach — Place · 1 mention · first at
    First few days when I got into office by suing some cities in my state. put 47 on notice, sued Huntington Beach, have and have changed radically our approach to accountability…
  • LA County — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Jurisdictions in the cities and counties just around the Bay Area. I haven't even gotten to LA County. There's 88 cities 88 leaders, COC's. everybody is participatory in this…
  • Athenians — Place · 1 mention · first at
    What, does, it, do, to, a, society?, Well,, I was quoting Plutarch yesterday who warned the Athenians in I don't know 50 70 AD. Don't quote me. he said the imbalance between…
  • Monterey — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Rural California. In fact, my first cabinet meeting was in rural California in a small town Monterey park dealing with water supply. we launched just recently. It was a…
  • Central Valley — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Can't talk past people. Can't dismiss people. I'm not I'll keep going back to the Central Valley. Ask the You get the mayor, Republican, former police chief mayor of Fresno.…
  • Brazil — Place · 1 mention · first at
    They're moving. I was down in BM. I was down in Brazil. BYD is everywhere.
  • Oakland — Place · 1 mention · first at
    End said, Whatever else must happens the Chinese must go. Led to the Chinese Exclusion Act. He was in Oakland California. the Bay Area was the center of that universe. There…
  • County Cork — Place · 1 mention · first at
    San Francisco. but he was they were immigrants came through Indiana, came from County Cork in Ireland. I don't know. Is that JD's is that enough or do I have to go back to…
  • Ireland — Place · 1 mention · first at
    San Francisco. but he was they were immigrants came through Indiana, came from County Cork in Ireland. I don't know. Is that JD's is that enough or do I have to go back to…
  • Dodger Stadium — Place · 1 mention · first at
    United States of America in the second largest city in my state. You had this guy put Bortac teams out near Dodger Stadium on election day to chill free expression, free speech…

Media & podcasts

  • Fortnite — Media · Light cultural reference · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced in an opening friendly exchange/gag: 'Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday, Governor.'
    Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor.
  • Kendrick — Character · Minor reference · 2 mentions
    Mentioned once in transcript with low confidence; unclear identity/context.
    That Gavin Newsome would have a chance if he ran for president someday. That was less widely believed. Liberal white guy from a state the country considers badly governed. Just…
  • Fortnite Friday — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    A media event mentioned in passing during the podcast.
    Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor.
  • Applebees — Character · Referenced cultural book/topic · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced as part of 'Applebee's America' book/idea describing Democrats trying to appear more mainstream; low-confidence extraction.
    We, were, I, was, reading, books, about, going to Applebees, Applebee's America. It was all about, it was about appearing less frank. We can't have, Hermes ties anymore. it.
  • Joe Rogan Experience — Media · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Podcast mentioned in the context of media influence.
    That Andrew Tate is innocent. and Sky Peterson is an unbelievable thought leader up in Canada and Joe Rogan is the best and Charlie Kirk, you really get to need to know him, Dad.

Sponsors

  • T-Mobile — Company · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Telecommunications company mentioned as a sponsor of the podcast.
    They're now the best network according to the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance.
  • T-Mobile — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Sponsor of the podcast segment promoting its business services.
    Edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that.
  • SuperMobile — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Product promoted by T-Mobile during the podcast.
    To the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance built-in security…
  • T-Mobile — Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that.

Full transcript with timestamps

that Gavin Newsome, the governor of California, might want to run for president someday. That's been widely believed for a long time. That Gavin Newsome would have a chance if he ran for president someday. That was less widely believed. Liberal white guy from a state the country considers badly governed. Just didn't seem like the profile that either the Democratic Party or the country was looking for. Well, things change. If you look at the polyarket betting odds on who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee, Newsome is far ahead of anyone else. Jonathan Martin, Politico's senior political columnist. He wrote a piece entitled, "Amit it Gavin Newsome is the 2028 front runner." Look, I know it's all very early to be talking about 2028. And in this episode, I try not to. But even putting the future aside, Newsome has become, without any doubt, one of the Democratic Party's leaders at a time when the

party is desperately looking for leadership. Where, the, hell, is, my, party?, Where's, the Democratic Party?

And, as, a, Californian,, someone, who, has watched and covered Newsome for a long time, he has surprised me. taking risks, trying new things. He has a feel for this moment, not just in politics, but in attention and in how attention now works. In a way that very few other Democrats have demonstrated.

Welcome, to, Fortnite, Friday,, Governor. Hey,, it's, good, to, be, with, you., This, is my kind of Friday.

You, got, some, pretty, good, merch, here, too. Thank, you, for, that. I, like, this, one.

That's, right., Yeah. You're, good, at, this., Hey,, I, have, a, fail. And, he, just, doesn't, seem, in, the, way so many Democrats seem afraid. He doesn't seem afraid of trying things and failing. Doesn't seem afraid of making his own side angry. Doesn't seem afraid of experimenting. It's working for him. It began right after the election when Newsome launched a podcast where he began interviewing people like Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon, Nuke Gingrich, Michael Savage. I mean, that podcast pissed Democrats off. if I heard from any of them, but I watched him in those episodes. I thought, he's listening and I wonder what he's learning from them. And at the same time, Nim turned himself into the leader of the resistance. How Donald Trump is trying to rig the midterm elections and how I fear that we will not have an election in 2028 unless we wake up to the code red what's happening in this country. He began trolling Trump on

social media, talking about the president in the terms of president talks about everyone else. Then when Texas began its midcycle redistricting Newsome did something many found shocking.

Governor, Gavin, Newsome, and, supporters, of the ballot measure believe that redrawing congressional districts is the only way to protect democracy. People against it think it's a power grab.

Some, top, Democrats, had, historically, been opposed to the idea of redistricting. Two bad behaviors don't make a right behavior.

And, that, ballot, initiative,, which, could have failed and would have looked terrible if it failed, passed overwhelmingly. But Newsome's problem as a leader for the Democratic Party is what it has always been. Look California, in my view, is the greatest state in the nation, the place I love more than anywhere else on earth. But at a time when the politics of affordability are paramount, California routinely ranks as the least affordable state in the nation. Nuome has signed many good bills, done many good things, but he has not fixed that. So I want to have Newsome on the show to talk through what he's learned from the right, what he believes must be the future of the Democratic party, and how he answers California's manifold critics. As always, my email as reclin times.com.

Governor Gavin Newsome, welcome to the show. It's, great, to, be, with, you. Can't, believe, I, was, on, your, podcast before you were on.

Well,, that's, the, way, it, should, be., I mean, I you know, I needed I needed some numbers. I needed some audience. So thank you for providing that. I'm grateful.

I'm, I'm, happy, to, help., So,, I've, been watching interviews with you recently. Everybody starts by asking you about the Democratic Party. I want to ask you about the right. I am always struck by how, much, of the, modern, right, comes, out of California. Se Breitbart, California.

Interesting. You, have, uh, Ben, Shapiro, and, the, Daily Wire begin in California. Steven Miller

grows, up, in, California., Peter, Keel, Curtis Yarvin was based in California. The Claremont Institute, the intellectual home of Trumpism.

Why, do, you, think, that, is, that, California is birthed so much of the I, mean,, look,, it's, the, size, of, 21, state populations combined. Um so you have to put it in perspective. I mean there's nothing like it in scale and size and scope. You have more Republicans in California than most states have population. Uh so you have to put all of that in perspective. So by definition in a very pluralistic state uh that you know politics is very diverse even despite the fact of its perception of being a big blue state. You look at a map twothirds of that state is deeply red. You have some of the most conservative counties in America and you have some of the most historically conservative counties going back decades and decades like Orange County that really forged

my, county, your, county, forged, sort, of, the, modern construct of of you know sort of Reaganism and Nixon these guys that came uh from that frame. So in that respect it's not surprising but the Steven Miller I think that's interesting because there's this dialectic right there's sort of that that push back to sort of orthodoxy and that friction uh that emerges and people that emerge from that uh emerge with a very strong point of view. Do you think there's something too, about, the, I, know, some, of these, guys I don't know some of the others but the way they end up feeling embattled on the wrong side of history. Everybody says and I believe California is a place where the future happens first.

Yeah. And, a, lot, of, them, felt, like, they, were watching what they believed in get encircled. And it seems to me it created a kind of conservatism that is much more apocalyptic, much more ethnationalist.

It's, certainly, ethnationalist, much, more, about, where, about, trying, to stop where things are going rather than preserve like the best of

Yeah., I, mean,, Ron, Brownstein's, written, a lot about the the forces of restoration in in that context versus the forces of transformation. Uh, these guys want to put America in reverse. They want to bring us back many ways to pre-960s world on voting rights, civil rights LGBTQ rights, women's rights, etc. And look, you think about that in the context or I think about in the context of California and your question. Uh to me that peaked in my sort of modern construct meaning in terms of contemporary space in 1994 with Pete Wilson the Republican governor.

One, of, the, hardest, fought, state, races, is in California where incumbent Republican Governor Pete Wilson is facing Democratic challenger Kathleen Brown and where the issue of illegal immigration could be a decisive one.

Wilson, believes, he, has, touched, a, nerve. He is backing Proposition 187 which would deny illegal immigrants services like health care and public education for their children. And on that same ballot was the end of affirmative action at least the beginning of the end of affirmative action which occurred at the UC regions uh shortly thereafter. But Prop 187 was all about push back, you know, was xenophobia and the nivism, the push back against immigration peak 1994. They keep coming. 2 million illegal immigrants in California. The federal government won't stop them at the border, yet requires us to pay billions to take care of them. Enough is enough.

Governor, Pete, Wilson. Those, against, 187, were, heard, in, the streets, but not at the polls.

And, of, course,, his, ascendancy, running for election, re-election, was all about his presidential aspirations as well. I am seeking the presidency of the United States. The values that guided us for 200 years are suddenly under siege and so is America.

So, it, was, directional, not, just, in California but growing across the United States. So we've had this for decades. I mean there's a familiarity here. Uh but you know the response to that is also interesting and I think in many respects the response to Prop 187 and P Wilson's success has a lot of clues in terms of how the Democratic Party responds to this moment and reasserts our success moving forward in terms of rebuilding the party. Um

it, was, about, grassroots., It, was, about building movements. Uh it was about connecting communities. It was about NOS's. It was about community organizers. uh it was truly bottom up and it forced a discipline that led to a lot of organizations that are thriving today that quite literally came out of what they perceived as a chaos uh of 1994 1995. I, you know, I think about it now in the context of where we were in 2004 as well. Um, in terms of where our party is, where we got shellacked, we lost the Senate, we lost the House, we lost the presidency. Uh, and then we built Media Matters, we built Center for America Progress, we built, you know Democracy Alliance, we started organizing millennials, uh, we started organizing Hispanics, we started focusing on mobile, local, social cloud, cloud meaning technology. and we built this bottomup movement that brought us back into the majority with

Nancy Pelosi two years later and then 2008 we had 53% popular vote uh most since 1964 to get Barack Obama into the White House. So it was a remarkable story of resilience but it was also the hard work in 2005 and six that set that course. So I I often think about the ' 04 analogy. I don't think I think probably the Democratic party was more shattered and broken after 2024, but I think people who don't remember 2004 and how bad that felt

can, miss, and, in, the, sense, the, Democratic party lost touch with the heartland. It had to be a completely different thing.

We, were, I, was, reading, books, about, going to Applebees, Applebee's America. It was all about, you know, it was about appearing less frank. We can't have, you know, Hermes ties anymore. I mean, it was all about the heart. It was I mean it's so familiar. So many of this stuff all this stuff echoes over and over and over and over again. But so you've actually been trying to figure out different parts of America. So I I was struck after the election to see you start a podcast

horning, in, on, our, territory, here., I, I got to say I didn't. You, really, didn't., Well,, you, didn't expect my guests.

Well,, you've, actually, had, a, podcast before with with, March, man., What's, happening,, man?, You, got Marshmallow Lynch,

Doug, Hendrickson, and, Gavin, Newsome,, and, you're, listening to politic. So,, talk, about, podcast., I, didn't, expect you to have that probably beat this one.

But, I, would, not, have, expected, you, to start with Charlie Kirk as your first guest.

Dr., [clears throat], Michael, Savage. Yeah. Yeah. Steve, Bannon. Yeah. I, mean,, I've, watched, you, in, these interviews.

You're, listening. Yeah. You're, looking, for, threads, of, of interest and agreement. I've watched Steve Bannon tell you repeatedly how the 2020 election was stolen. You just let the pitches go, right?

Because, I, mean,, how, many, how, many debates have we had about wrong and we've it's exhausting.

I, want, to, I, want, to, ask, what, has, stayed with you from these conversations? What you have been learning uh across a couple of them. So let's start with with Kirk. What for you was the most resonant point Charlie Kirk made and I don't mean her that you have to have agreed with it. Just something appreciate

has, made, the, way, you, think, about, the world a little bit different. Um, I thought there was a sincerity, a deeper sincerity than I anticipated in terms of his point of view and his perspective. Um,, I, don't, [clears throat] I, you know, I I'm perhaps almost a humility in this respect, a willingness to engage with people he disagreed with, a willingness to debate um to the extent that he thought in a fair and balanced way. Um I think there's grace in that. um someone deeply focused on organizing in a deeper way than I expected or understood.

Um, right, around, I'd, say, 2021 uh we had a goal. Could we move the youth vote 10 points over 10 years? And we

was, it, literally, you, sat, down, and, put that numerical together? Yeah., Like, can, we, move, it, 10, points, over 10 years? Because our whole hypothesis was and we you know we did this alongside President Trump and his great team was that this demographic is disproportionately to the Democrat side. We believe Democrats were taking them for granted and someone that understood more deeply the the pain that young men are facing and struggling with.

They, are, the, most, alcohol, addicted,, most drug addicted, most suicidal, most depressed, most medicated generation in history.

And, the, message, that, was, largely, being fed to a lot of young people was lower your expectations. you're not going to have the same American dream that that your parents would have. And we saw this as an opportunity especially with young men.

Uh, and, was, able, to, do, something, about, it and give them hope and recognize the society is failing young men and uh and someone that clearly was playing an outsiz influence even greater than I fully understood in terms of supporting the base of the mammoo. part of his perspective on how society is failing young men felt reasonable to you, recognizable to you. And which part I mean look I mean we all know I mean everybody knows the stats you if you're 30 years old you're the first generation living that's not doing better than your parents. This is and there's a sense of nihilism that's growing. And I had a number of other interesting guests, Atriarch and others went down to TwitchCon and was there with a lot of gamers and really sort of trying to get into the the the belly of the beast of understanding where young men are and this pain and suffering this isolation that's turning increasingly to grievance that they're

never going to do better than their parents. They're never going to get out of that room with three roommates. They're never going to get uh even they can't even afford rent because they can't even afford the first two months payment uh on the rent, let alone buy a home. in this nihilism he understood and he understood it in the context I don't think he and certainly Trump understood it as well he took advantage of it but they have no prescriptions to address it and deal with it so where it fell short of course I only had an hour and a half conversation with Charlie but where it seems to me I've fallen short with turning point USA and the and MAGA movement is they don't have a prescription to actually address the real and substantive issues but they sure as hell identify the

problem, prescription, And, I, think, if, I were to try to boil it down tariffs a closed border on Christianity. Christianity is a big part. That was that was also telling um you know I I I lazily said you know Jesus to and he got offended, [clears throat], and, then, I, said it again and I realized boy I really are offended. forgive me for being and I didn't understand how deeply held his faith was and how much of an organizing principle it is for them as well and how these rallies and everything that's interesting just that merger in terms of creating community sense of belonging meaning identity it's hard to break

he, was, trying, to, build, the, new, Christian right yeah, and, Trump, understands, that, it, gives people meaning and purpose it's powerful I mean I imagine it's like you I haven't been to a Bernie rally necessarily but it seems you know not dissimilar but even more I mean there's a religious construct to it. That's powerful. Faith community, uh belonging. These are we're desperate for that. And those are universal. Those are not right.

Are, you, religious, or, spiritual, at, all? Yeah., Spiritual, perhaps, more, than religious. I'm uh as my dad would say about I went to Catholic schools and uh went to a Jesuit university. I'm I'm Catholic of kind of the distance distant kind. I'll go to church on Christmas. Uh you know, I'm one of those. Uh but I feel deep connection to my faith beyond that in a spiritual sense. um in Jesuit upbringing really has defined me. The St. Francis, my our patron saint in San Francisco, many parts one body. When one part suffers, we all suffer. This notion of social justice, racial justice economic justice is deeply ingrained in me. Uh and it's kind it's it's really shaped me in in that respect. So I I attach that. I don't dismiss that when I talk to someone like Charlie. I respect that deeply. I admire that. But look, I think there there's a lot of grievance there, but there's also a lot of grievance I have in this space that my

party's completely neglected this space that we haven't been organizing the campuses, but we haven't been organizing young men. We haven't been addressing their societal screams, their concerns they're legitimate suicide rate, 4x that of women, dropout rates, the deaths of despair. I mean, we we have men that are suffering and it's hurting women. Any [clears throat], mother, understands, this. I've got two boys and one of them, as you know, if you listen to that podcast was so excited. Charlie Kirk was coming on because his algorithms are saying that Andrew Tate is innocent. Uh, and Sky Peterson is an unbelievable thought leader up in Canada and Joe Rogan is the best and you know, and Charlie Kirk, you really get to need to know him, Dad.

And, uh, start to wake up to this reality that Democratic Party needs to wake up to. And that's again that's the entry into why I did this podcast and had those folks on as first guests.

I, thought, one, of, the, most, interesting shows you did was with the streamer Atriarch.

Yeah., Thank, you. Yeah., What, did, you, take, from, that conversation? You, know, what, was, so, interesting?, Uh, he was wonderfully combative with me. I kept wanting to talk about his history as a streamer and a gamer.

He, had, no, interest. I, I, do, want, to, start, talking, about, Gen, Z men. Yeah., And, uh, the, issue, I'm, seeing, and not all of them are like this. It's a broad diverse group of course and and it's a huge point of my audience and I'm hearing them I'm hearing their their thoughts a lot. They range from angry to openly nihilistic. He said, "I'm coming on because my audience is pissed off. Pissed off with you, pissed off with everybody. Democrats and Republicans. You're not listening to us. They're struggling. They're suffering. And you're not listening to us. It's not about gaming. It's not about Discord.

It's not about Twitch. It's about what the hell you guys haven't done to address the crisis for so many young people and how they're feeling today. If I could boil it down to one word, it's like radicalism is when no house. If you can't get a house, if you don't see a path to get a house, and I hear this all the time, they're they're some of them are working. They're working decent jobs. They're working hard. It's not even feasible in a lot of these cities to ever get a house. Uh, and it was remarkable. He kept coming over and over and over. Once you feel like you can get on that ladder, you're okay. You can you can calm down. You can find a party. You can vote. But if you can't see that, it's what's the point? Why why am I doing it? Why am I working this job for a boss I hate for wages that are only okay? I'm never going to get another step up. So, yeah. Yeah. I I feel like I've said that enough. I

And, it, was, not, just, illuminating., Um,, it woke me up. Wake up. Wake up Democratic party. Wake up everybody. People are suffering and struggling and and look it's a Trump understood that in a contemporary term. I didn't understand that in this terms. I was out there making, a, case, and, I, was, one, of the, last men standing for Biden. I was out there literally up right and I was talking about the economy in the aggregate. 15.4 million jobs, eight times more than the last three Republican administrations combined. the best jobs market since the 1960s. Uh all of these things that were true. All that said, uh I missed the obvious, point., Uh, [clears throat], that's in the aggregate. We're talking about the economy. We're not talking about the American people. We're not talking about people's lived experience. And we miss that. And with Atriarch, he kept bringing that back. That systemically

for decades, this economy has not been working. 10% of people on twothirds the wealth. half the consumer spending is that top 10%. this thing the mags the whole the stock market is seven damn stocks maybe 10 but primarily seven mostly in California and so that reality [clears throat] he burst in a way that pierced me even more than all the intellectual pundantry the things you've written and other people have written uh because

make, it, personal, but, it's, not, nourishing, the, economy, for enough people are living on edge

and, I, [clears throat], saw, that, at, home, I live that reality but it's deeper than that now I mean we were able to finally afford.

But, you, needed, to, I, think, somebody listening to this could say, "Look you're the governor of California.

Nobody, was, unaware, that, inflation, was punishing people that that, homes, be, had, become, extremely unaffordable, for for, for, young, people. Nobody was unaware that there was pain. I mean, what when you say it burst a bubble for you? How was that?"

On, my, own, rhetoric,, I, was, so, stubborn. I'm talking about sort of my rhetorical posture, not my understanding. I mean look, I'm the guy that did $20 minimum wage for fast food workers. No other government in the country's done that. 25 for healthcare workers

doubled, the, earned, income, tax, credit,, uh that has universal healthcare regardless of pre-existing condition, ability to pay, and immigration status. I'm deeply mindful of the imperative to address these underlying issues. So, I'm I'm not naive in that respect. Quite the contrary, but my rhetoric did not match. And I think that rhetoric that was so much part of the rhetoric this sort of defensive posture that inflation was cooling from that 9.1% and, jobs, [clears throat], market, was growing. We were the envy of the world economist magazine everybody else GDP growth. It just landed flat.

America's, already, great. Yeah., And, Trump, understood., So, it, was the rhetoric not the reality that I'm trying to but let me get at this rhetoric reality landing flat because I do think there's something pretty deep here. When you used to defend Biden to me and to others, the the word you would use about his governance, not necessarily his communication is a master class. I agree.

Right., You, you, and, you, were,, I, think, probably the most effective at making the case people wished he would have made.

If, these, policies, were, so, good,, if, the policies in California were so good then what is the disconnect? Because ultimately this whole thing is supposed to work on a feedback loop between policy, reality voting which was the policy not actually that good? Was it just unable to overcome the reality? What broke? Well, I thought the policy was extraordinary, but so why then did it not make people happier? Because program passing is not problem solving. So you have to establish that as a framework. When you pass a piece of legislation, that's day one. Mhm.

Now, you, you, start, at, the, beginning, of, a new process which unfolds over the course of period of time and it unfolds in ways that no one understands better than Eler Klein that no one understands better than the person sitting across.

I'm, sure, you, say, that, to, all, the podcast. But it's a fundamental fact of the frame of reference that we have together in terms of your abundance agenda, understanding process understanding the labyrinth of governance, understanding jurisdictions understanding the sort of the pluralistic realities of how you actually manifest and implement these ideals. And that's challenging and that plays out in 50 states. It plays I mean I just think about my own you you living in the Bay Area. There's 101 jurisdictions in the Bay Area alone.

There's hundreds of special districts JPAs and transit districts in addition to that to get anything done. How you break that down. You imagine from the presidential perspective, chips and science act and the IRA and the tax credits etc. uh having that framework. Localism is still determinative and now you can drive a lot of reforms on NEPA squa and California etc. But localism still outweighs so much of that. And so from a communication perspective that should have been perhaps communicated more effectively. Um but also it needs time to gestate. Trump's success is destroying not building. That's easy and you can destroy in nanconds the symbolism and the substance of the east wing. That's destruction. Doge destruction. And that kind of destruction somehow satiates people in this respect. They feel like, "Oh there's something actually happening.

There's real action here." But to be a builder, that's where greatness is. That's where greatness lies. And that's what I believe was the master class of the administration was able to create a framework to build again at scale $1.2 trillion infrastructure package, the IRA, so we can compete against our most fierce competitor, China, in lowcarbon green growth. They delivered $369 billion. The reality though obviously is that Trump will take advantage of a lot of those investments

but, he's, also, taking, advantage, of, the narrative of destruction. A view I hold I think even more strongly now than I did when I was writing the book, which was mostly before the election, is liberal democracy will not work if policy cannot deliver at the speed of elections. at the speed of elections.

When, Democrats, get, to, the, point, where they are endlessly justifying why everything is so slow

my, favorite, example, of, this, is, that, when Medicare passed, it took one year for the Medicare cards to go out. When Biden, in what was arguably the most popular single thing he passed during his presidency, certainly one of them passed negotiating down Medicare drug prices, the way it was designed, the And you can blame corporate influence on all kinds of things

right?, But, it's, still, not, those, 10 drugs. I think the first time people will pay those lower prices is [snorts] next year.

Yeah. And, so, just, in, time, for, Donald, Trump, to take advantage of it. If you break the cord

between, the, things, that, Gavin, Newsome, is doing and Joe Biden is doing and what people can feel

how, are, voters, supposed, to, make Well,, I, think, it's, why, they, have, turned to Orban and you've got, you know, more authoritarian leans. I mean, it's why we were all just reverential a decade ago and Freeman and others writing breathlessly about the China model and how they're going to clean our clock. People, yeah, they want action. They want to see results immediately. I get that. But we also believe in due process, believe in civil service believe in the rule of law, not the rule of dawn, not the law of the jungle. Uh we believe in oversight, you know, vise and consent. Uh we believe uh in due process and and transparency. U we don't believe in cronyism where perhaps we don't. Yeah, I'm not saying we need to believe in Trumpism

but, the, point, I, guess, the, point, is I'm, saying, what, do, you, do, to, reconnect people to the fruits of governance?

So,, look,, I'm, trying, to, do, that, in, real time. I I think one of the things that I look back on my term is is um if there was if there were a mistake um I there's policy things I certainly should have couldn't do but this notion of compromise um and being complicit in that process as you suggest um where we're just you know all these interest groups everything else and we just want to work through and we're making progress feels good uh but we you know so we went 80% of the way uh we're going to come back I have lost all patience for because I agree with you, the public has as well.

They want to see results and that was reflected in 13 housing bills that I disproportionately had to assert uh well number of them I had to put in the budget in which you just don't do because it couldn't get out of the legislature otherwise in order, just, to assert, and, deliver, with, a mindset that is aligned with your critique and your observation. But but again there's a balance there because I don't want crony capitalism. I don't want state capitalism. I don't want command and control. I don't want to blow up the procurement. I don't want to just pick winners and losers.

Let's, take, as, a, premise. Yeah. That, the, model, where, you, walk, in, and, you hand Donald Trump sometimes non-metaphorically a gift made of gold to get good deals from him.

Yeah., It's, I, think, it's, uh, it's it's, bad. It's, not, bad., It's, it's, it's corrosive beyond words. It's extraordinary what's happening.

We'll, go, with, that. Yeah. The model where government doesn't deliver is also corrosive. You have you have a great metaphor in your book Citizenville

where, you, say, that, people, treat government like a vending machine. Yeah. And, they, go, and, they, put, their, tax dollars into it and when nothing comes out they begin shaking the machine.

Yeah., You, kick, the, machine. If, Gavin, Newsome, or, somebody, Gavin Newsome likes was doing Doge but the thing Doge claimed to be. We have been doing it. I started Doge. We spell doge ODI. I started in 2019. Sort of worse than Doge.

I, agree., It's, Office, of, Digital Innovation. Now it's Office of Data Innovation. So, it's I made it even worse. Again, we've reformed our procurement. We've reformed our civil service system. Uh we have advanced more Gen AI uh pilots than any other big state in the country. We continue to innovate in that space. But I didn't try to do things to people. I tried to do things with people. So, it didn't get the kind of attention uh that running around on stage with a you know uh uh I [clears throat], don't, know, uh, with, uh who was that guy. Yeah. Chainsaw with with our Argentinian president or our dictator and chief would have generated.

I'll give you a specific. We've, installed, more, green, energy projects this last year than any other time in history. 7,000 megawws. We just had the largest solar in Fresno County $5 billion 2300 megawatt project. Darden, the largest battery solar project, one of the largest in the world, done in record time because of the new processes we've put in place. We also did the same thing with fasttracking uh around permits for an above ground storage facility the first in half a century in California. We're doing the same with housing. 42 SE reform bills I've signed infill housing reforms, ADU reforms. We can get into all that as it relates to single family housing reforms, everything that you have wrote and written about. And we have moved to a degree. I don't know that many states have. So, I'm completely aligned with you in terms of having to deliver. And I'll tell you, if nothing else, Trump has, I think, woken

better wake our party up to that's what people want to see. But for good, not for destructive purposes. I want to move to to Michael Savage. I think it is hard for people who didn't grow up in the era of Limba and Savage to sort of understand what Savage culturally represented and why it was so surprising to see him on your show. So, how would you describe who Savage was in his heyday?

I, mean,, Savage, was, I, mean,, this, guy, was at peak back in the day. Rush Limba and Michael Savage dominating right-wing radio. He was an outsider in the Bay Area

in, San, Francisco., You, talk, about,, you know, someone who was, you know, who was sitting there in the heart of the region and attacking 24/7 the culture and the community and the values. And remember the modern MAGA movement, you could trace back, you could deeply argue started with Michael Savage. That's why we thought he was an important guest. If I were running, I would run in a campaign of borders, language, and culture. Say, well, what do you stand for, Mr. Savage? Borders, language, and culture. The Republicans are having meetings now what they should stand for.

You hear this? They're still trying to determine what their motto is. Duh. Language, borders, and culture. That was his mantra for decades and decades. And so for me that was I thought perhaps one of the most interesting interviews is sort of mind his consciousness of where we are today.

And, then, what, did, you, actually, take, away from the conversation with him that you thought was interesting?

Well,, you, know,, his, I, think, it's, just his history. I mean, he's a he's a big environmentalist. Um he's got a lot of deep opinions. um very critical of the current administration as it relates to endangered species as it relates to natural uh and working lands, as it relates to animal rights more broadly defined. He's got an interesting progressive background that evolved or devolved depending on your point of view uh through his own experiences. Um and uh and he's a family man. Unbelievable relationship with his son who's unbelievably successful interestingly uh and his wife which I admire. I just family.

You're, really, connecting, Kirk, and, Savage to to the fact that they're human beings. I know they're human beings.

And, I, think, it's So, you're, talking, to, people, on, the, right who have a very different

Yeah., But, I'm, also, talking, about, But it's not about right or left. It's about there's univer at the the one thing and it's a great irony talking to me because I'm fighting fire with fire and I'm pushing back and I'm being criticized for that by being very aggressive and I'm not I'm not holding punches.

At, the, same, time,, I, say, this, all, the time, divorce is not an option. We have to live together and advance together across our differences. And so I want to find those areas. I want to find the humanity. I want to find the love. I'll use that word. We all need to be loved. We all need to love. Savage's view is that California is a kind of hellscape.

Yeah. About, 5, years, ago,, I, had, a, heart, attack. Okay. Here in Marin County

so, I'm, rushed, to, Marin, General. I, have, to, wait, online., It's, filled, with illegal aliens. It's a perfect

geographical, location, for, me,, but there's a point at which I will leave this thing and that will be taxation without representation. So Gavin, the homeless thing is the turning point when that man defecated outside the window. That, was, the, beginning, of the, end, of, San Francisco for not only for me but for the whole city.

And, my, point, is, not, to, have, you, uh, agree or even disagree with that. But when you sit there and you listen to him and he lays it out, which part of it do you think there is something to respond to here? Not the way he would respond to it, but there is some set of problems that from his perspective are visible. Yeah.

That, from, your, perspective, are, harder, to see. I mean, the affordability crisis. He's 100% right.

The, uh, poster, child, of, our, failure, as, a state, is, the, issue, of, of of, poverty that's out on the streets and sidewalks as it relates to encampments and homelessness. But look, he loves our state. It's why he's living in the state, California. The vast majority of these guys that attacked the state grew up in the state, made their wealth in the state, still have businesses in the state. Elon Musk put his R&D headquarters back, world headquarters back in California. His AI company's in California. SpaceX was launched in California. Tesla exists because of California. He's a billionaire because of the state's regulatory posture. So many of these folks that are attacking the state all come from the state of California. What they don't like is the progressive tax. Tell me about it.

Yeah,, you, [clears throat], understand, it. But it's the progressive t they want to take their capital gains someplace else, which I deeply understand. It's homeless and housing and transportation problems are legendary. It's a mass exodus. The California derangement syndrome is not new is my long-winded point.

When, I, talk, to, people, about, you, as, a leader of the Democratic party and you're a leading voice, let's do call it that for the moment.

For, the, moment,, you, what, are, you suggesting? It won't be for long. I, read, between, the, lines.

I'm, not, going, to, ask, you, seven, different ways of your run into 2028. God, bless, you., Yeah.

Uh, what, I, am, going, to, ask, you, is, this. The, big, political, issue, of, the, day, is affordability.

Period., California, on, US, News, and, World Report on Wallet Hub. Look at all these different rankings. It ranks 50th on affordability. Yeah. These measures combine housing costs and other measures of cost of living.

Why?, And, what, is, the, affordability agenda that is credible coming from the governor of California?

It's, interesting., You, wal, also, talks about the happiest city index. Five of the top 10.

Listen,, man., I, got, tattoos, and, I, got, I got redwoods tattooed on my arm. I grieve every day I'm not in California. You don't need to tell me it's a

in, terms, of, taxes,, which, is, interesting. Wallet Hub comes out with their annual survey on taxes, saying we're slightly above average on taxes. Total mythology there. It's the highest tax rate in the country, but not the highest taxes across the board when you add everything in. That said, the affordability issue in California is real. It's been the original sin going back decades and decades. Housing, period, full stop. More things in more ways on more days explains everything. It's the original sin in California. Nimism. We haven't gone, out, of our, own, way., We, haven't produced enough housing stock. It's econ 101. Supply demand. It's not very complicated. And when I started as governor, there was no housing agenda.

There was no homeless agenda. Was not the responsibility role of the state. It was assigned to cities and counties and regional COC's. And we changed all that. In fact, I put a marker down within the first few days when I got into office by suing some cities in my state. put 47 on notice, sued Huntington Beach, have and have changed radically our approach to accountability, creating a housing accountability unit, looked at state excess land sites, which has unlocked over 5,000 units, began a process of working with carrots and sticks to move from nimism to a yimus mindset, which I think we have demonstrated in meaningful ways, and substantive ways. 110,000 housing units were completed last year.

It's completely completely underwhelming and so we have more work to do. Why, is, it, so, hard?, Because, you've, wanted to do this. You put a 3.5 million housing production goal.

It, was, that, was, the, aspirational, goal and then the the legal goal 2.5 million by 2030. So under our re regional what we call the arena goals and that is the established legal fire and by the way it's first time we had goal setting that was this.

But, you're, not, on, track, for, either, goal. Not well no one is no one is but

across, the, country, and, that's, by, the, way that's a macro you got 1.2 2 million

but, other, places, are, I, mean,, look,, I, I spend because I'm a nerd a fair amount of time looking at statistics on housing starts in

Houston having now a big downturn in terms of of of costs because of some of the overbuilding. But it's interesting

right?, Listen,, I, think, of, California having a big downturn in rents because over I would I think that would be a welcome change of problem.

I, get, it., But, no,, no,, we, have, to, take genuinely serious. I've seen how many bills you've passed. I've covered a bunch of them. What makes this so

you, got, 470, cities,, you, have, 58 counties. I mentioned just the 101 jurisdictions in the cities and counties just around the Bay Area. I haven't even gotten to LA County. There's 88 cities 88 leaders, COC's. I mean, everybody is participatory in this and and and so that's the challenge. It's that labyrinth. By the way, uh these folks aren't happy. League of Cities not happy. Our county partners are not happy. I mean, we are asserting ourselves in ways that the state has never asserted ourselves into local planning decisions in order to break down those barriers. And we've been breaking down those barriers. What we need is to break down the costs of borrowing. It's the last piece that's missing right now. I think we have shifted the dialogue. We have won the debate. We're on the other side of this.

And the proof point will be when we see the borrowing costs red. So I think you can think about what it takes to build housing as having three buckets. One is land use, zoning, permitting, etc. The the sort of legal traps you have to run in order to get started.

Y then, there's, financing, of, construction, interest rates, things like that.

And, cost, of, construction,, which, is related, but but has to do with the cost of materials, labor, all the rest of it. And as you say, I think in in a lot of blue states, the fight on land use and zoning is intellectually won. Whether or not it's been totally policy one, that's harder. But I do think that's one.

The, financing and the cost of construction, which by the way, with Trump's tariffs and deportations is getting worse on a bunch of levels.

Tell, me, about, those, because, I, actually think those are harder to talk about. Well, and you didn't even bring up productivity, which is down about 30% since 1970 to 2020 in the housing sector.

In, the, housing, sector, and, and, let's establish situationally the tariffs environment has impacted the cost of goods. So, material supplies has gone up. It's made it worse. Donald Trump the labor shortages are real. Today there was a Wall Street Journal article showing 300 or 400 plus thousand uh uh construction worker shortage and they can't even get enough data center workers uh to address some of the energy needs for AI, etc. and that's been exacerbated by the mass deportation efforts etc. So those two things are important but issue of productivity goes to deeper questions now around can we look at new styles of construction. Are we going to promote at scale modular housing prefab housing

is, offsite, you're, building, houses, like you would build a car and then assembling them on site

and, and, it's, also, 3D, printing, which, is really interesting. And there's some interesting companies in can uh in in Texas. Uh they're actually working with NASA uh in terms of some opportunities there in terms of new materials. AI as it relates to material space is also interesting in relationship to this conversation. So look, I do think we're about to experience a completely different shift on the productivity side because of necessity, because of the reality, because of the crisis of affordability. And this holds a lot of promise. It holds a lot of political peril in the context of the politics within labor and that has to be accommodated and dealt with. By the way if there's a big preview for California my last year, it's in this space legislatively to take it to the next level. But we have to accommodate because there's a lot of unions within

I, want, to, slow, down, what, you, just, said here because I I know but just for people who are not as into the modular housing debate as you as you and I. So right now building housing is you know guys show up with hammers

same, way, they, have, been, since, the beginning of time. This, is, why, productivity, is, down.

Yeah. And, modular, which, there's, no, place, in America that does a ton of off-site manufactured housing. But in Sweden I think more than 80% of single family homes are now off-site modular or off-site manufactured.

You, can, have, modular, build, as, many places do uh in unionized factories right?, So, it, doesn't, have, to, be, a, non-un industry but it still means fewer builders

and, it, means, which, unions, and, which different skills which trades are, part, of, that, and, therein, lies, this is the issue we have to address

when, you, talk, about, address, it, right, I, I think you're pointing towards there being some way that it can be addressed but on some level uh it will mean fewer people building on site unless we increase housing production so much you have a And that's the and the goal is to do what we need to do which is the abundance of gender actually addressing the demand side of the equation. Uh so I think we'll be fine for a decade or two as we work out of this morass this mess we've created not just in California but all across this country in today's super competitive business environment. The edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that.

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You, had, a, hell, of, a, conversation, with Steve Bannon. Um, I thought I was talking to Bernie Sanders for half of it. It it's interesting. I mean it. I've had that experience with him. What What did you take from that? The the the sort of strange horseshoe nature of the populism that he espouses maybe a little bit more when he's talking to people on the left but but that I think is authentic to him.

I, think, it, is, authentic., I, mean,, he, has a point of view. He has a perspective.

Here's, I, think, it's, important, and, and and this is why I think let's get back to why President Trump won again. You have basically workingass people in middle class and particularly lower down the chains. They've seen the bailouts on Wall Street. They've seen the oligarchs be made. They they don't think they have agency in in a global, you know, global supply chain. They think they're just a cog in the machine that their voice is not heard, right? They're kind of dismissed culturally. They're considered and I don't care if you're black Hispanic, or white workingass. It's not a race thing. It's it's or ethnicity.

It's you're just dismissed. He's thought things through in a deeper way than I frankly understood. You know, we're so quick to dismiss, oh, Steve Bannon, uh trying to light democracy on fire and January 6 and and the like. Uh and then you get under the hood and he's making a rational case for an industrial policy that's worker centered. He's making a rational case of critique and reflection about the WTO and NAFTA. He's making a reflective case that both parties, not just the Republican party, but Democratic party, was complicit in the hollowing out of our infrastructure and our manufacturing base. He's making the case for progressive taxes. I stopped him in the interview. I said, "You quite literally made a more effective case for California's progressive tax policies than I or others have made." He was arguing that Trump on the Big Beautiful bill made a mistake. He should have increased corporate taxes and increased

taxes on the 1% and lowered them for working folks on the upper brackets. I don't want to I don't want to see extension. I want them to go back to the old rates and they have to pay the old rates. And then additionally, if they can't help us get this under control I'm all for increasing uh taxes on the they they will have a tax increase if President Trump doesn't extend it, but then I think we'll have another have another tax increase. Had he done that Democratic party would be in real trouble right now. If Trump listen, I've had this experience interviewing and then listening to Bannon. There are moments where I'm like, if Trump actually listened to this guy, the left would be in real danger. Had he done that,

he, would, have,, I, think, created, an, enduring, mega, movement., I don't think there is one after Trump. I don't I think it's going to fray. There's no chance JD could keep it together. Certainly not Rubio or anybody else. Without Trump, there's no Trumpism. There's no ideological framework. But there could have been. He could have built the structure from a policy framework. And Bannon, I think is the thought leader in that respect. And I say thought leader, and I know that offends a lot of liberal minds that are offended by Bannon and don't want to attach any thoughtfulness uh to uh what he promotes. But I think we would be wise to listen. And that's again there's got to be some grace. Learn from people.

Success leaves clues. There's power of emulation. And uh and you've got to get out of your bubble literally and figuratively. And you also have to find humanity. You have to find decency in other people. Uh for no other reason that we're all exhausted, polarized traumatized. We're exhausted. This has to end. We can't take this anymore. This is code red in this country. Just the humanity that we've lost. The sense of purpose back to meaning. I That's why I believe in national service should be compulsory. That's why I believe in patriotism. Not just from a party perspective, but from a unifying perspective. We have an opportunity. 250 years of this historic project of our founding fathers to celebrate that sense of idealism, this this extraordinary project, 249 years. And I think that's that's that's what I hope not just our party does, but we as Americans can do next year. Well, I watched the reaction

to a bunch of these conversations and and the thing you know about having conversations like that with people like Bannon, like Kirk, like Savage is you get a lot of frustration from your own side saying, "Why are you treating them with so much grace?"

Yeah,, of, course. Why, are, you, listening, so, openly, to, them when they treat us?

Yeah. Like, this. That's, right. How do you How did you How did you take in? I, I I, thought, it, totally, fair

and, and, I, was, marginally, hurt, by, it,, but it was completely fair. Look, if you want to, you can go on cable and you can watch the back and forth. You can watch me on cable go back and forth. I'm happy to get into that mode and I will do it. I'm I take a backseat to no one on being willing to engage and debate people. I'll do it on a daily basis, but that's not the point of the podcast. And so I'm trying to create a different space and I think it's important to have that space as we find the way back together because this again I I just I'm married in a big Republican family. You know that and some may not know that. Um this is not it's not an academic exercise for me.

It's not about right. It's not about left. It's not about red or blue. It's about just the it's about the human experience is what it's all about. And I think that that it's all about is kind of we've lost that in our politics.

I, think, of, most, of, the, things, I've, read in newspapers this year, maybe the one that sticks in my mind the most was in the Wall Street Journal. Uh I apologize to the the Times, but to read to read these sentences in the journal was was striking. The net worth held by the top.1% of households in the US reached $23.3 trillion

in, the, second, quarter, of, this, year., That is up from $10.7 trillion a decade earlier. The amount held by the bottom 50% increased to 4.2 trillion from 900 billion. So the top tenth of a percent in this country has 23 plus trillion in wealth. The bottom 50% 4.2 trillion. What does that kind of wealth inequality which is prevalent in California? A lot of those rich people in California

what, does, it, do, to, a, society?, Well,, I mean, I I was quoting Plutarch yesterday who warned the Athenians in I don't know 50 70 AD. Don't quote me. Uh he said the imbalance between the rich and the poor is the oldest 2,000 years ago. He said this is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics. That's what it means. I mean, it's the end of I say this all the time. You we've got to democratize our economy to save our democracy. This is back to code red. the governor will tell you we need to we redistribute the wealth.

Well,, I, mean,, and, it's, so, how, do, you think about that? Well,, in, many, respects,, that's, what progressive tax states do. I mean, you have regressive tax states do the opposite. Florida and Texas, by the way most of those are taker states. Progressive states tend to be donor states like California, states that are actually producing more wealth for the American people. You look at at a a statement that came out about a year ago from one analysis that showed that Texas took $71.1 billion more from the federal government than they provided the federal government. California at that same year provided $83.1 billion to the federal government. That said, California's progressive tax rate has been criticized, but foundationally provides me, and you'll see it in my January budget, the ability to expand our unprecedented investments into child care, expand our universal preschool program, which we have fully implemented

in our after school for all and summer school for all programs, which are nationleading uh programs. And that is part of a redistribution framework. Uh that I think in many respects was the model that Bannon was arguing interestingly for.

But, we, fundamentally, tax, income, not wealth. Yeah. And, difficult, to, tax, wealth.

It, is, difficult, to, tax., It, is, not impossible to tax wealth. I mean we, used, to, have, a, strong, or, a, stronger state tax in this country.

Yeah. And, now, it's, pretty, toothless. It's, absurd. And, we, live, in, an, economy, built, on assets.

Yeah., And, I, just, don't, know, how, you, can have an agenda for any kind of democratization as you put it of the economy that speaking at the national level because there are are interstate dynamics that would make a wealth tax at the state level harder that doesn't really begin to think about the point you just made the key point at a statebyst state. Yes, I understand that. So from a national prism, uh this is a conversation that we need to have an honest conversation about this. But we're in the how business. Again, this entire conversation is not an abstract.

It's not an intellectual. I we're practitioners. I'm a practitioner. I'm dealing with realities cards that are actually dealt. Uh and how

I, just, criticize, people, from, sidelines. It's, much, easier., God, bless, you,, man. Tell me about it.

Yeah., I, mean,, that's, why, on, behalf, of the That's, why, you, want, a, podcast., I, don't want to be. Yeah. I'm I'm speaking on behalf of Joe Biden and his legacy. It's

uh, but, but, my, point, is, to, make, this point. I mean how do you mark tomarket? How do you determine assets? How do you determine the sort of internationalization of ass? These are I'm not saying these are impossible things. I'm not making an excuse by making a point. The big beautiful bill was the big beautiful betrayal. I mean this was a disastrous bill for our kids and grandkids for atrio conversation for those young kids. This transfer of wealth this debt burden this debt bomb that we're placing on them. what we've done uh to the next generation is a disgrace. And that's why Bannon was right and Trump was wrong and the supine Congress was wrong. And so we've got to write that wrong as it relates to reestablishing a progressive construct.

Whether or not we engage in a wealth tax, by definition, this debate is going to heat up because of the stat. We need to have an honest conversation debate. I know there is a lot of difficulty around the implementation of something like this. We both know that. Um, I guess what I'm asking you is you're here quoting Plutarch to me.

Yeah. Is, a, society, that, has, that, level, of wealth inequality a politically stable or economically just

and, that, was, the, point, he, was, making. That's why I say if you don't democratize the economy, you can't save our democracy. That's where populism is rising. Authoritarian tendencies fascist tendencies are asserting themselves. Well, then it sounds like you're saying whatever the structure of it is, we're going to have to do something that shifts the structure of wealth in this country. It brings

by, definition, and, I, look,, I, I'm, going, to defend our our progressive tax structure in California. I'm going to defend it because I think it's the right approach. I absolutely reject the regressive tax structures of states like Florida and Texas. I reject the regressive nature of the tax structures that were doubled down on with the big beautiful betrayal. Absolutely. So, no, I believe in that. And I promoted, I practiced that.

I, was, listening, to, talk, with, Andrew Alcin, my colleague at Dealbook, uh yesterday. And And you talked, you guys talked a bit about wealth tax and separately, you talked about baby bonds which have always been a proposal I like a lot.

I, don't, like, them., I've, done, them., I, No, we didn't. I mean, we did 3.4 million kids entering kindergarten. We put aside 1.9 billion many years ago. It's interesting. Not everybody signed up for them, which is remarkable. Even if you hand something to someone, doesn't mean they'll necessarily take it, which is a stubborn fact. But I love this idea. What about a wealth tax or an estate tax that simply funds universal basic

we're, looking, at, universal, we've, been playing around I mentioned yesterday the mimum we've played around with grant funding for UBI minimum income in we've done grants in California at scale and uh we have a lot of interesting pilots a lot of feedback but we're also looking at universal basic capital we're looking at this notion of a sovereign wealth framework Trump has talked about this which is interesting I don't dismiss this

yeah, and, he's, taken, cuts, of, companies and, he's, taken, we, can, get, get, into, the 10% tithing or 15% tithing from AMD and Nvidia and the 10% from uh obviously Intel. But this the opportunities with those baby bonds, those thousand baby bonds presents an entry point for that conversation that I think is important. And I said it yesterday, I'll say it to you. That's hard for me to say. Thank you, Ted Cruz. Uh but Cory Booker, to his credit, was one more responsible than anyone as a thought leader in this space.

Here's, I, think, the, difficulty, on, taxes for Democrats. people I mean polling on this is clear including among many Republicans people want higher taxes on the rich what they don't necessarily believe is that Democrats will spend that money well or effectively that they'll put the money into the vending machine and get something out right you've talked a lot about the California tax structure here

uh, California, ranks, according, to, tax foundation which is right leaning but honest

second, for, tax, collections, per, capita, at about $10,000 per person Florida it's about 5,000 per person when I hear rich people in California complain. They don't so much complain, although they do complain about the level of taxation but more about the feeling that when they go back and forth, they don't see the public services as so much better. They don't see the public infrastructure so much better. They can't ride the train, right? It's about how do you rebuild faith that if we do move to significantly higher levels of taxation Nordic levels of taxation, that people are going to get from that. I get what they get is a $4.1 trillion economic output built on the basis of a formula as Freriedman would say for success with a conveyor belt. Uh no Tom in this case.

Oh, Tom, I'm, staying, closer, to, home, to, see what we're talking about some reverence to to Tom. Uh we have a formula for success. I mean California success is not an accident. It's by design.

I, mean, we, have, 18%, of, the, world's, R&D. We invest in that. Billions and billions of those tax dollars go back into R&D tax credits. the UC system. I mean, how many more engineers, scientists, more Nobel laureates do we need? We have 13,700 active pending active patents in the UC system. Those ecosystems have created these trillion dollar companies four trillion dollar companies, created and minted these billionaires and that are complaining about California. That's the benefits that we have provided for these companies have laid the foundation for innovation and quantum and fusion and robotics and space and the future and dominating that space. We have $180 billion. It's the largest since Pat Brown. $180 billion. It's build.ca.gov.

You can look it up. Transparent website that shows the biggest investments in capital and infrastructure in California's history that is being invested as we speak. We dominate in manufacturing. 2.8% of manufacturing advanced manufacturing is in place like Florida. It's 13.9 in California. We dominate in every critical category

of, the, nation's, total, total., Yeah., the nation's total, but we're so we're number one in every category. So, the economic opportunities, the growth, the energy, the daring, the creativity, all of that is present in California. My gosh. Uh we have more Fortune 500 companies than we've had in a decade in California. We have more unicorn companies we ever had. Look at the venture capital that's going back into the state. I mean, it's a remarkable number one in two-way trade.

Number, one,, I've, heard, you, do, this before. It's, not, just, doing, it,, but, it's, all true. But what people would say that what your critics on this would say is that you're sitting on an on an oil well, right? Silicon Valley was built it's an elomeration of of of talent and

But, how, was, it, built? I, agree, with, you,, but, it, wasn't, the, last 5 years

but, it, was, built, on, these, investments. These, conveyor, belts,, these, these programs and protocols wellestablished that we haven't walked away from, we've reinvigorated. As a fellow Californian, one thing I I I hear when I talk to you feel very shaped to me by the culture specifically of Northern California

and, Northern, California, has, become Silicon Valley, San Francisco even compared to what it was 5 or 10 years ago now as the epicenter of the global AI revolution that much more important.

Yeah. And the culture of Silicon Valley has changed. The politics of it have changed very rapidly in this period. When I go back now to San Francisco, I feel this very strange tension of people racing headlong to invent

something, that, even, they, are, not, sure it will be good, who it will be good for. They hope

completely, agree, with, that but, they, all, sometimes, see, seem, like servants of a thing they are bringing into being more than Yeah.

You, know, they, wouldn't, they, would, not tell you they understand how it's working.

Yeah. How, are, you, I, think, AI, is, going, to, be, a big part of the next turn, of, politics

dominant, dominant what, is, your, before, I, get, to, anything about regulation.

How, do, you, feel about AI? The way I think about AI is um promise and peril both end because I think what you said is spoton and I spent a lot of times with with these guys the next 3 to 5 years there's almost universal belief people don't know what they don't know but there seems to be some consensus that 3 to 5 years agi super intelligence that we're on the other side of the unknown that's uh pretty alarming and so to your point

my, timeline, for, superg, is, longer years, may, be, long, on, that, but, I'm, you know

but, but, general, intelligence interesting, I, talked, to, I, talked, to, some of the deep mind people they were they were talking 36 months I don't want to lay them out specifically um but people associated with them not from deep mind obviously the race everybody this bubble everyone's participating uh in this race all acknowledge the bubble that's being built the capex that's been invested across this country and what's happening in terms of utility costs across the country and data center and energy is the one thing that will slow this down.

How nuclear fision or fusion nuclear fusion is a big part of that conversation as well. So, it's going to shape more things in more ways on more days in our politics. You're already seeing the beginning, just the beginning, I think, of job impacts um but likely to get more pronounced and perhaps exponentially so. So, Tech Geniey's out of the bottle. You got to deal with the cards that are dealt. You can't stuff it back in. It's a global race. our biggest competitor is China. It's a race to super intelligence and what that means or what it doesn't mean. Um, and we have to navigate that and I think we have to take responsibility to thoughtfully regulate it. And that's what California is pursuing the first regulatory framework in the nation SB53. that took me two years to get right and land and we did it with a lot of the competing parts uh within the regulatory space meaning those uh that see this as a dystopian

future those that want a light touch and we've tried to find some balance in this space but obviously the state of mind of the president and guys from California like David Sachs and others is to let it rip and to try to vandalize and trip us up from being able to do Right.

I, don't, think, we, really, know, what, AI, is going to do to the job market or when or to whom though

right?, I, don't, think, it's, clear, enough in the data yet. No. But, I, think, a, couple, things, are, worth assuming will happen. So, one that is already happening is that the process of looking for a job has become hellish. You are

I, may, need, to, look, one, a, year, from, now. So,, keep, filling, [clears throat] more. I mean, I talked to people and it's like you're sending endless resumes to dozens of places. They're being read by AI. Sometimes you're interviewing with it's become very dehumanized and dehumanizing, right? So, and and hard to find a job and it's

it's, just, endless., Everybody's, using, AI to apply. The AIS are reading the AI applicant, right? It's a circular thing but it

what, I've, seen, in, human, beings, going through it is a profound demoralization. and leave the question of are you actually going to see what I think will first be job freezing

as, places, don't, hire, as, much, right and, you're, not, going to, see, a, huge, it's not like it won't be like co where everybody has to stay home all of a sudden or half the people have to stay home all of a sudden it's going to be just a bit harder a bit harder it's going to, be, a, recession, for, the, young it's we're not good at handling things where people are being affected differentially

and, the, third, piece, I'll, just, add, into this uh mix is just the fear. It's, real.

How, many, people, I, know, who, are reasonably how many people I know in school who are reasonably afraid that they'll be replaced by an AI that that and they can they can work with the systems now and they know that at many things the systems are as good at it as they are.

Yeah. Right., A, lot, of, a, lot, of, jobs, are, not, at the frontier of creativity. You're doing something somewhat wrote, somewhat replicable, some somewhat learnable. And that's what the middle class and most of this economy is built on.

You, got, it. And, I, just, think, that, between, the economic and the psychological destabilization of this. I I think I am surprised how much people know this coming. You can see it in polling. People know it's coming and politics seems at sea.

Yeah., And, that's, what, we're, trying, to change in California. That's why we're leading in this space. No other state is doing more in this space. But let me reinfor reinforce a few of your points and then add one additional one. I completely agree. Anything that gets repeated gets replaced and AI has moved out in the physical world. You can see that physically in California with all of not just the Whimos that are out there. You can be seven deep in traffic with seven cars with no drivers, but also Zuk and others. You're seeing in robotics now. You're seeing humanoid robotics uh that are going to start moving into place. You're seeing it already exercised in number of hospitality settings and in hotels and hospitals uh that are starting to play and iterate in this space and you're seeing mass adoption particularly in China and elsewhere. So this is real.

It's coming. It's coming fast. As it relates to that anxiety, I would also offer that it will also have a gender component. You look at that gender displacement in terms of some of those jobs, those clerical jobs and those, you know, parallegal jobs and like and the impacts that will have on women as well. So I think that's a dynamic we also need to consider that gender dynamic as well in this conversation. Um, look, I'm having advanced conversations as I mentioned earlier, not on UBI anymore but on universal bas basic capital and looking at those issues back to the baby bonds, looking at the prospects of mass displacement, even if it's for a period of time and on the other side, we have abundance and how we address that anxiety in real time, that fear. How do we accommodate for it? How do we own a responsibility to address it? And again I feel a disproportionate amount of responsibility coming from California to

lead that conversation. Let, me, flip, something, about, the California model, which is California's success part reflects the way that growth and economic energy and activity have become unexpectedly in the digital era more concentrated. And that has been amazing for California, which as you say is a world leader in technology and advanced manufacturing and in all of these things that are engines of of progress and and and wealth right now. It is in a broad sense somewhat politically destabilizing

because, so, many, places, have, ended, up, as we were talking about at the beginning

more, hollowed, out, not, because, of California but because of these huge returns to concentration and capital. And so, you know, back in the '90s Democrats won rural and urban counties at about the same rates, right? Not that long ago. Now, Democrats dominate cities really struggle in rural counties in part because the people in those county just feel left behind and unseen by them. So, you're you're Gavin Newsome, your former mayor of San Francisco, you're governor of California, got Silicon Valley.

How, do, you, rebuild, that, connection? Well,, and, also, the, guy's, never, there's never been a governor spend more time in rural California. In fact, my first cabinet meeting uh was uh in rural California in a small town Monterey uh park dealing with water supply. Uh we launched just recently. It was a three-year project but completed just recently 13 economic regional economic workforce and development plans. We called it regions rising together. It's not one economy. It's the intersection of many different economies to address precisely the point you were just making. It was a ruralled suburbanled effort. 200. This is what made it different. $287 million seated these bottomup economic and workforce plans.

Three-year process over 10,000 people. I did seven events in seven rural counties. No one covered that. You only covered what I put on some social media site and post because it sort of made fun or mocked uh Donald Trump. Now you're framing it with an electoral construct and that's a different thing. And I'll tell you that's more challenging because as someone who's never spent more time in rural parts of California, I can assure you having been on the ballot as many times as I have been, including my recall, it hasn't improve improved my performance there.

I, appreciate, you, actually, note, this, and admit it because it does get I was going to say to you that this is what I always hear from Democrats when I ask this question. Look at all we're doing. Look at all we're trying to do. So what to you

that, disconnect? What, to, you, fascinating drives, that, disconnect?, I, just, I, think culture uh belonging meaning I think identity I think they're deeper issues here. They're deep. I mean I can go on talk about regenerative egg work I'm doing all the work we've done for farmers farm workers all these things sub I mean like next, level., No, no no, Republican, governor ever did any of these things. I mean Trump is destroying ranchers and small businesses and farmers and they're celebrating the guy. I mean this guy's I mean it's a joke. It's a it's what the is anyone paying attention yet they still vote for him. So there's that is you you I'm going to look for your pundantry on this. Try to understand you go to round tables. You talk to people.

One thing I I believe is you do listen when you talk to people. I, love, I, love, these, folks., I, love, these folks. I care about these folks. I go into Kevin McCarthy's district and I'm like, "How in the hell do you reelect this guy? He's cutting your Medicaid programs disproportionately impacting. He's cutting all these damn programs that we're investing in your infrastructure and health and wellness um in your f I don't get it. all the environmental programs about, you know air, clean water, they're the ones cutting it and you're celebrating that.

So, there's a cultural construct here that I'm trying to understand more fully and it matters. Culture matters. And I was talking to Kirk. He says politics is not downstream of culture. It's already Trump [snorts] is culture and they they've owned culture. They've won the culture wars. We've got to I think there's we have to recognize that. I don't know that I would say they're winning culture, though Democrats are probably losing it at the moment. But I do think a couple of years ago what they figured out because they felt it authentically. And in some ways, this goes back to the particular form of modern conservatism that grew in California is how much energy there is in the feeling of loss.

Yeah. And what they said, the way in which they were culture was that they really understood the feeling of being left behind by culture. The feeling that your stories were not going to get told, that your views would not be respected. The people running culture from people who were then running the platform companies who at that point were understood as a liberal. They've obviously flipped a little bit in recent years to the people in Hollywood

that, not, only, do, they, not, care, about you, they don't like you. Yeah., Yeah.

They, look, down, on, you., I, hate, that., I don't I hate that perception. And by the way,

it's, not, even, entirely, untrue. No,, we, talk, we, talk, down, to, people., We talk past people. So damn judgmental. I mean, our party just has to be more culturally normal in that respect. That's why again it I and I'm not just saying that. I'm also trying to prove the sensitivity of that. Back to the whole podcast conversation. All want to be protected, respected, and connected to something bigger than ourselves. There's universal truths here. All want to be loved. All need to be loved. We're all in this together. And so again grace grace humility decency um, and respect for people we disagree with. Don't talk past. You can't win people over if you talk down to people.

Can't talk past people. Can't dismiss people. I'm not I'll keep going back to the Central Valley. Ask the You get the mayor, Republican, former police chief mayor of Fresno. How many times I've been there, have the back of the people of Fresno, Bakersfield, California. How many times I go back, Republican mayor go there? And so I'm trying to demonstrate respect. I'm trying to show it and to the extent it's not reciprocated,, uh,, [clears throat], that's that's that's that's the the thing I can't control ultimately. I'm just trying to control what I can control. I I just think we have to be careful as [clears throat], a, party, and, uh, not, be, so prone to judgment. So, not be too prone to judgment. That seems right to me. But but you talked about being culturally normal. One of the other things I hear people worry about with you as a sort of leading voice in the Democratic party the most is you've taken a series of

positions that Trump tries to attach to Democrats often wrongly. Uh in under your leadership in California, there actually was subsidized government healthcare for undocumented immigrants. There was a big push to let's call it phase out cars with internal combustion engines.

Absolutely. These, are, the, kind, of, things, right, now Democrats are running away from.

Yeah., I, I, can't, I, mean, I'm, maybe, that's I mean I'm sure the polls would say I should but I I'm not that's not who I am. I've never been that. I've never been a guy that can do that. Um I believe China is going to clean our clock. They have 70% of the EV market. They're moving. I was down in BM. I was down in Brazil. BYD is everywhere. They're getting market share supply chains. They're they're advancing influence. And it's to me not about electric power. It's about economic power. And I just I can't seed that. And so California is the center of the universe in that respect. We dominated R&D for, you know, that's why we have all the mobility out there in Zuk and that's why we have Whimo and the R&D work that's being done at Tesla and Skunk Works and and and Rivian and all of these other companies that are are investing in that future and we are the future in that respect and I'm trying to

hold on to that as it relates to UNDOC healthcare. Yeah, I'm proud of that because I believe in universal healthcare. You know, others may say it I did it. first state in the country regardless of pre-existing conditions ability to pay, and regardless of your immigration status. I promised that. I promoted it. I ran three times on it. I did it when I was mayor. People know who I am. We failed on the border. We need to own up to that. Largest border crossing in the Western Hemisphere in my state. Spent billion plus dollars to do migrant centers, try to put a lid on things. It was quite critical, but I tried to do it in a respectful way of the Biden administr. We failed on the border. We have to own that. But we've also failed as a consequence because of that to lead the comprehensive immigration question. We've got to get the border right, then we can get to that. But I say that to make the point.

You don't need sanctuary policy in this country. If we have a federal government doing its job in the absence of that we'll deal with the cards that are dealt. And one of the cards that are dealt is people are going to end up in the emergency room. And you're going to pay for that one way or another. I want to keep people out of the emergency room. I want to keep people healthier. I want to keep people safer and that's why we've advanced these values. Trump uses this is a cudgel. He uses this very effectively uh to attack our party and our values. Um but I'll stand up to it and good people can disagree. But I'm very mindful.

Why, did, Democrats, on, order? Because, we, didn't, we, didn't, own, up, to the reality. We didn't take responsibility. But beneath it, what happened? Right. You know, Joe Joe Biden was not a guy who didn't know that you shouldn't have, you know, chaos at the border. You sent down National Guardsmen at a level of why for policy.

The, why, was, everything's, in, reaction, to Mhm. Trump, sort, of, the, overreach, of, Trump., We, come back

and, we, then move 180 degrees in the opposite direction uh when we didn't need to or shouldn't have. Um and you saw mass migration across the country. It was hardly unique in the United States. You had all of the shock and supply chain shock and issues around COVID coming out of COVID etc. that created even more pressure. And then it became overwhelming. And then what also became overwhelming was this notion that we can't do it without Congress. Uh and then Biden then proved Trump right by doing it without Congress. In the last 6 months, we saw a significant decline in border crossings under the Biden administration. that ultimately uh led to u benefits for Trump claiming he did it all at the end when he really closed the gap marginally. Um but we paid a huge price for that and we picked up the I think the wrong lessons in the midterms. We outperformed in the midterms and this was a time when all

Democratic governors were critical. You saw it publicly and then they did better than we we all expected. They said why don't we just focus on these other issues. Mistake. Uh, I call this oppositional mirroring, the tendency to become the mirror of whatever you're politically fighting. And I think on immigration, Democrats really became Trump's mirror. He was cruel. They were going to be

compassionate., He, he, tried, to, close, it. They were not quite going to open it but they began debating decriminalizing border crossing. Right. There was a lot

there, was, a, lot, that, was reactive. Yeah. Now,, I, think, you, see, the, the, Republicans doing making the mistake. completely right. People don't like cruelty either. But I think it's deeper than that. I spent a lot of time sort of trying to understand the the theories of the right and they have really talked themselves into the idea that you cannot have a cohesive national [snorts] community with high levels of immigration. They have talked themselves into the idea that more than 15% of people were foreign born or in some versions of this not even heritage American. let's call it or as they call it

that, you're, not, a, real, polity. Now,, California, is, a, very, diverse, place. LA, San Francisco are very diverse places.

What, is, your, answer, not, on, whether, or not we need to secure the border but, what, it, means, to, be, a, political community

and, what, it, means, to, be, an, American, if its meaning is not to be a heritage as they call it American. Um I live in a state 27% just so people understand California 27% of the state is foreign born. It's a majority minority state. Um I mentioned the word pluralism before because we practice it. It's a word you don't hear a lot about. I I think our strength is defined by that diversity. I know that offends JD Vance and everyone else and offends the folks you've referenced. Truly offends them. That said, this is an issue that goes back. I remember this from my history books in the 1880s. This guy named Dennis Kernney, the working man's party started every speech beginning and end said, "Whatever else must happens the Chinese must go." Led to the Chinese Exclusion Act. He was in Oakland California. Uh the Bay Area was the center of that universe. There was walls, virtual walls, uh that were being

built in all these illustrations to keep the Chinese out of California. We were at peak immigration back then, peak populism out there in so many ways respect. Trump, I mean, Kernney was the original Donald Trump, going after institutions, going after the media, uh and obviously scapegoating others. Um we saw that peak drop in 1970s to a relatively modest percentage of our overall population, this country, that is now getting close to the old 1880s peak. So, it's very familiar all of this. But, I'm of the mindset, here's where I am on this. I'm of the Reagan mindset, life force of new Americans. He could have chosen any speech to leave the Oval Office. Ronald Reagan chose one speech to talk about the power of this country being defined that anyone can be part of this country. Nowhere else in the world is that the case, but it uniquely defines the greatness of America. I'm with Reagan on this point.

So,, but, I, want, you, to, expand, what, that point means. So what JD Vance who I think is the most interesting speeches of any Republican politician right now because he's the one trying to build a philosophy

around, what, for, Trump, I, think, is, gestal and intuitive impulsive you, know, Vance, goes, to, the, Claremont Institute in California to accept an award and gives a speech you know basically making an argument that we have aired in our philosophical understanding of what it means to be an American we have aired in following Frederick Douglas and Abraham Lincoln and believing in credto Americanism. What Vance says in the speech is look there are billions of people in this world who might like to pledge allegiance to our flag who would agree to the ideals of the Declaration of Independence.

And [snorts] I, wish, I, wish, JD, Vance, and, Trump, would forgive me. I guess they're real Americans. Forgive me.

We, can't, make, them, all, Americans., that the real that there is something distinctive about an American who can trace their lineage back to people who fought in our

I, I, had, a, conversation, literally, about this yesterday my father by the way a Brazilian immigrant so immigration is is quite close to my heart

but, his, argument, which, I, think, he's doing a couple things he's mixing up immigration which is a question of how many people we decide to let in and this question of of critical Americanism but but he is trying to say that this idea that being in America, being American is about what you believe is false and it doesn't give you a way to limit who's an American. What we have to do is recognize, admit that bloodline

that, length, of, time,, numbers, of, your family buried in cere cemeteries here as he talks about all the time.

God, bless., Yeah. That, is, what, really, decides, it., What What, your, answer, to, that?, I, I, I, I I [clears throat] watch you get physically uncomfortable as I

I, just, you, know, I, I, just, uh you know I think about you you talked about I, look, forward, to, your, podcast, with, JD.

God, by, the, way, that, should, be, fine., I'm trying to get Margie Taylor Green on first. But um look I you you mentioned your your lineage a little bit. I I remember my dad used to say I said Dad [clears throat], when, did, we, come, out, to San Francisco? He said well my great-grandfather or my grandfather was here. He goes, "He was an Irish cop even before San Francisco." He says he didn't know what came first, the Irish cop or San Francisco. Um but he was they were immigrants came through Indiana, came from um from County Cork in Ireland. Um I don't know. Is that is that JD's is that enough or do I have to go back to 1680s? Is are we a real Americans? What what's his definition? And who's going to decide? is it's the basis of I I don't I don't know what the he this ethn this uh concerns me. I just don't think this is who we are and I'm not a deep thinker in this respect and I'm not

claiming to be because I haven't given it deep thought. Um but clearly they're trying to make a point um that I think California stands out as a counterpoint in terms of economic growth, prosperity innovation, dominance. You talk about the future. Uh it's happening every single day because of that vibrancy. Half the AI researchers are Chinese. And should we I mean these guys are advancing some of the most I mean talk about vandalism and sand in the gears. I mean look at all the international students except I guess we're making carveouts for Chinese students because I'm sure there's some carve out for something related to the Trump family businesses in relation to to that. I mean, this is literally part of the secret sauce of this country. And they're putting all of that on the line because they're looking at some sort of uh vulgar version of lineage and ethnationalism that concerns the hell

out of me. And I'm just not I I I don't even want to indulge too deeply in it. That said, let me say this. I think one of the mistakes and may get in trouble for saying this about my party is and it's in the spirit of Clinton, we tend to focus so much on our interesting differences. We don't focus on the things that unite us together. And I think our

within, the, party, or, within, the, country within, our, country, I, think, that's, a mistake and I remember Clinton talking a lot about that we you know it's many parts but one body in the spirit of father cause at Santa Clara University uh we're all bound together by this web mutuality but we have to find that thing that binds us together and I think those founding documents you just referenced uh the best of the Roman Republic and Greek democracy this this this you know historic project of our founding fathers It's it's all in there. It's the 27 grievances in that that declaration which again I did read and this notion that we can unite around those val I think is critical and I think it's a missing ingredient in our party where we need to assert that and affirm that.

That's why I talk about faith and family and patriotism, things that unite us all together. And that's what it means to be an American. All those interesting differences racial religious ethnic differences, but at the same time, we're united around these fundamental values these enduring values, these these historic values, uh, that we've inherited, but we have to fight for. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible device in most outdoor areas

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Let, me, ask, you, then, what, binds, the Democratic party together. I've been writing about the the big 10 Democratic party what it would mean to to build that. You said it more pithily than I have which is you said in a recent interview you want to see a party that goes from mansion to mom Donnie.

Yeah., [clears throat] What, binds, together, a, party, that, goes from mansion to mom Donnie? I hear a lot of people, say, isn't, this, big, 10, doesn't it not believe in anything? What do you think it believes?

Give, me, a, break., I, mean,, what, I, my grandfather, we talked about a Democratic party. It was a It was a broad coalition. My kind of party. Yeah. You brought people in. It's about addition, not subtraction. I mean, come on. I mean, our party needs to be many parts, one body. And so, this idea of exclusion. And again, that's judgment. Uh that's purity. That's uh getting into I didn't like the pronoun you used. I mean I we we got in that we were I mean there was a there was a year or two there where for all of us I mean it's uh took me a back too I was even participating I found myself a little bit and I got pushed back from even my own staff saying why' you use that word and I'm like I you know we're all sort of struggling through a post George Floyd world and understandable racial justice and all these issues coming out of COVID and sensitivity I just uh little less judgmental a little more

inclusive if you believe in the death penalty you don't believe in the death penalty doesn't mean I don't believe in you or your right to be part of our party. If you believe in choice, but you believe a late term abortion, uh, you know, you have an issue, I'm not going to dis deny that. If you have a more moderate construct as it relates to, um uh, you know, more worker centered policies, uh, or more liberal one, I we shouldn't be excluding you. Don't believe in the minimum wage, but you believe in an ear income tax credit which one are you? Are you Democrat? Are you you a corporate mod? I don't think this our party needs to knit back together that coalition that helped build the world's great middle class.

And, so, that's, that's, I, want, to, I I I don't want to exclude the mansions or the mandanis. The the thing that the mansion among line made me think a bit about is what would it mean for the people who represent the Democratic party nationally to seem like they simultaneously respected Joe Mansion and Zoran Mdani. Chuck Schumer did not endorse Zoran Madani for instance and I, you know understand that that Schumer probably has his, you know, disagreements.

On, the, other, side,, the, sort, of, people who might have seen Mansion, who for all of my disagreements with him, and there were many. Yeah.

Guy, was, a, genuine, Democratic, most valuable player, right? Holding a seat no one else could have held.

No, one, could, have, held. That, gave, Democrats, that, 50/50 me, crazy,, too., I, mean,, we, all, were, doing

that, allowed, Kla, Harris, to, break, ties and pass the, inflation, reduction, act,, right?, Joe Mansion was the most valuable member

well, said of, the, Senate, for, Democrats but, also, drove, us, mad drove, us, but, but, that, question, of, how does respect exist across disagreement at a time when I think social media and other things algorithmic media

create, a, lot, of, incentive, for, line drawing. That's, right. A, lot, of, incentive, for, saying, you, know you're out right and drawing our our circles ever smaller.

I've, spent, my, life, uh, being, on, the, outs and then back in. on the outback in I don't begrudge other people's success. Uh I don't think you can be um pro- job and anti- business. Same time I say businesses can't thrive in a world that's failing. And so who are you? You know, you you support a progressive tax but not a wealth tax or then you're a corporate dem. So uh you're right and and you're right that the the fine lines that are being divided online and and and these sort of filter bubbles that we're in u only reinforce those those lines. And of course that's what's you're going to have an open primary.

You're going to have 25 candidates for president. My gosh, you're going to see that on display on two gigantic stadium stages because you can't even fill it on one. Uh, and every flavor of the party is going to be represented from the the Democratic Socialists, which are just the old progressives in my town or Green Party folks uh back when I was mayor of San Francisco, very familiar uh and the more moderate uh voices that quote unquote uh you know can win those seven swing states. And so um you know we'll work we have to work through all these but again with an open hand not a closed fist a little less judgment um and a little bit appreciation that this party uh we we got our we got crushed in the last election. Donald Trump it was Trump I just remind us who beat us. We need to find common ground. Not just stand our ground to then hold the line so that we avoid the worst uh instincts of this

this this president by extending a third term in the presidency. Here's what's made me fascinated by what you have done since the election, which is you seem more comfortable with contradiction and paradox in your own person than most people I see in politics. So I I think you could have said after the election there are two lanes for a Democrat right? You can say we got schlacked, a word that only exists when Democrats lose elections. I've never heard that word used in any other context. uh we got shellacked and we have to reach out to MAGA people. We have to listen. We have to talk to the other side. Go to the diners. Um or you can be we need the resistance. We need to fight back. We need to troll them the way they're trolling us on social media. That you know those were sort of two different ideas you hear.

And your answer was yeah both. Yeah., I, said, look, my, favorite, book, one of the most influential books interesting in my life is called built to last. It's about the tyranny of ore versus the genius of and both and um moving away I forgive me I hate the vernacular you know moving away from the binaries but I really believe that I mean it is both and um and it's to find you know look I come from a reality [clears throat], based, experience, as, a small business person there's a practical reality you got to you got to implement your ideals again none of this is an intellectual exercise and you got to deal with cards that are dealt you can still I And I have been as progressive and adventurous in terms of progressive policies as most if not all Democratic governors in this country. As former mayor that did same-sex marriage in 2004 where my party was attacking me for being too progressive. Same time I

was also advancing care not cash program to take welfare away from homeless and guarantee housing in lie of cash because I didn't believe in the handout framework. I believed in opportunity and responsibility more of a Clintonian frame in that. So I was both and so I was trying to show not only respect to who I am in the past in my truth and authenticity but also show respect to those I disagree with because I do respect people I disagree with. It's not a zero- sum game. I try to work with Donald Trump. I was on the tarmac with him. I was probably no governor in the country worked with him more closely during co than I did. At the same time no one's being more aggressive. to your point trolling and attacking back on Trump. I started when he got elected saying I want to work with him or when he got elected but I started with a special session of my legislature the only state that did this as I said I

want to work with him saying it's trust but verify and fortified our litigation posture this reason we have almost close to 50 lawsuits against the Trump administration have led the country because I knew it was going to come both end so I it's to me not a paradox necessarily it's not a contradiction it's the human experience that's all

there's, also, a, dimension, where, you've been working very effectively, I think on the attentional level of politics.

I, think, the, great, sin, of, Democrats intentionally in recent years is that they are the party of the institutions. People got all A's, went to Harvard. Um, and when you go through a lot of institutions, you're formed by them, you become careful and cautious. The thing you don't want to do is offend everybody at a meeting.

Yeah., Well, said., And, that, worked, for, a previous era of attention when everything was decided by who the New York Times decided to cover, by who would get on network news.

In, this, era,, attention, comes, from although, that, doesn't, work, for, me because I want to have anybody on is boring. Podcasts do not like

uh, people, who, speak, in, a, very, structured way. Yeah,, I, agree, with, that.

You, can't, do, a, podcast,, a, good, podcast with a politician when you can watch them buffering before they answer for you. It's uh in this like we've been talking for a long time in this medium for this long it doesn't work.

Yeah. It's, a, way, that, the, mediums, change, who succeeds in them. Yeah,, it's, true, too.

You, seem, pretty, comfortable, with, risk. Yeah. Your, debate, with, Ronda, Santis., It, was, on Fox News with Sean Hannity moderating. I went back and watched that the other day.

That, is, wrong., That's, being, a, liberal bully. That's being a bully. They had Down syndrome and you wanted to discriminate against them.

27, million, discriminating, against because they were discriminating against the athletes. They wanted to marginalize the athletes and you wanted the athletes marginalized.

God, help, you. God, help, us, all., Um,, and, I've, met, a, lot of Democrats who don't who they're more worried about things going wrong in their communication than something going right.

Ezra,, I'm, a, I'm, a, fail, forward, fast, guy. Uh, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. I got a 960 on my SAT. I wasn't one of those straight A students at Harvard. I can't read. You've never seen me read a speech. I can't read a speech. I have severe dyslexia. had a learning disability that has defined me and who I am, my struggles, my insecurities, my anxieties, but also my willingness to try new things and learn from my mistakes.

Got, a, lot, of, facts, you've, been, spitting me where how do you learn? It's, just, I'm, I I, absorb, a, lot., I, can, I observe I absorb. It's just harder. I have to do hundreds and hundreds of reps

for, one,, you, know,, some, folks,, you, know, do one or two reps, but in that process you overcompensate and you then develop all of these other skills that have been gifts. It allows you to read a room. It allows you to pivot. Allows you to be a little bit more flexible. Yes, dare I say even more authentic. Um, and so that's who I am. I'm just I can't be someone I'm not. I'm not good at being someone I'm not. It's I am not comfortable faking it. And there's there's so many things in politics I'm not good at. The one good thing though is I think politics is radically changing. I I think it's rewarding a little bit more authenticity. It's I think Trump is sort of broken through this morass. It's, you know, uh, we're all getting roughed up a little bit here and, uh, we've all made mistakes. We haven't talked about my legendary mistakes. And you got to own up to them.

And it's who you are. It shapes you as long as you learn from them. Don't repeat them. And so, I'm just constantly trying new things. I don't have all the answers. I seek them. But again, with a willingness to fall flat on my face, and I've tried to be a I try to govern in that space. And so, I'll take the hits. We tend to be months or years ahead of others on a lot of issues and that's risky and you get a lot, you know, you get a lot of arrows in your back, but you also pave the way for others to be smarter and learn from that and and and you know, tack in a in a perhaps more electorally successful space. So, I'm happy to be that guy. I don't need to be president. There's not about that.

There's no I didn't wake up with some strategic plan. The idea that I'm even sitting here and people talk about this 20,, it's, that's, beyond, me., I, I I, thought I'd went last through a recall. You talk about humility. Seeing your name on a recall ballot, having your kids get one of my kids had to be homeschooled because it was so humiliating for her. Can't go outside. You can't walk the streets without seeing signs. And getting through that and getting the other side and dealing I mean this been this has been a hell of a seven years as governor of California. I mean the most blessed and cursed state from historic wildfires and droughts and floods and you know unrest, social unrest. I'm one of the few governors left in the co era.

There's only a handful of us that could talk about all those scars and the mistakes that were made and the lessons learned and the humility that comes with that. And so I'm on the other side and I think people have if you've noticed anything about me is you feel that a little bit but I'm just I'm like I'm smashmouth about some of this stuff. I think Trump is the is one of the most destructive presidents and human beings in my lifetime. I think this republic is at real risk, this country being unrecognizable. And I have no patience for people that want to indulge it. I can't stand the corny capitalism. I can't stand uh all these supplicants that are sitting there bending a knee uh to this president. I can't stand the universities have done that, the law firms that have done that uh the individual corporate leaders that have done that, other governors, maybe Democrats and Republicans that have been

complicit at this moment. This guy is reckless. He's a wreckless country. We'll not have a fair and free election if we don't continue to fight. I'm just I that's what matters to me. Seriously I'm the future exgovernor and who the hell knows what happens the rest of my life except one thing I know that matters in the rest of my life. I have to look at my kids in the goddamn eye. I mean that seriously. That's not like a politician thing to look them in the eye and say that I you know not in not a peril of being judged, not to have lived in the moment. So that's that's what animates me. But it's not some grand plan. So paradox, bring it on. Um contradictions, bring it on.

Contradictions, but that I think I can explain, perhaps, [clears throat] evolutions. We didn't get into transports. That's an issue no one wants to hear about because 80% of the people listening disagree with my position on this. But I but it comes from my heart not just my head. It wasn't a political evolution. It was

the, position, being, that I, I, don't, think, it's, I, I, [clears throat] want to see trans kids. I have a trans godson. I have no there's no governor that signed more protrans legislation than I have and no one has been a stronger advocate for the LGBTQ community. But you have to accommodate the reality of those whose rights are being taken away as we advance the rights of the trans community in terms of the fairness of athletic competition. And I just think that's not a bigoted position. And it's an example of some of the things I've been saying about being judgmental, dismissing people, throwing that person out of the party. I mean you want to talk cancel culture. I've lived it on that issue alone despite a record of 40 30 years. And people are willing to say I'm done. Friendships I lost on that position. And that position, by the way, came to me two years prior where I had to accom try to

accommodate for a trans athlete and another athlete that were in the state finals at track and figure field and they both dropped out because we couldn't figure out a way to make it fair and it was so unfair to both their families. Broke my heart and I tried for two years to figure out how do we do this? And so I was asked is it fair? I'm like I don't know. I don't know how to make it fair but these people just want to survive. Where's our grace and dignity about this community? at the same time. So, uh these are this is life. It's not linear circulinear. It's not just politics. And I think um I I just want to bring a little life back to my politics. I got a year left. I got an expiration sell by date. I'm on a milk carton. Um and uh and to the extent I want to hold the line and push back against Trump, I'll take no backseat to anybody else. Um, and to the extent one you throw to throw me into the mix with

these 12 other remarkable leaders that all friends. I'm going to see them all tomorrow at the DGA. Um, half of them governors, the other half great senators and and legislative leaders in Congress. Um, uh, what a humble and extraordinary thing. That's something you pinch yourself back to that 960 SAT kid that couldn't read in some back.

I, was, very, careful, not, to, ask, you, about 2028, so I'm not letting you go there yet. Um but but as we sort of wrap a little bit, I did want to talk about a different tension paradox cont. I know I know I know.

Um, [snorts], you're, not, going, to, say anything interesting if I ask you about 2028.

One, of, the, contradictions, and, uh tensions I do find interesting. When you were talking with my colleague Andrew Rossin towards the end of your conversation, you talked about being uh wanting to be a repairer of the breach.

Oh,, I, see. Yeah. And, this, is, I, think Yeah., Hell,, in, my, own, job,, I, feel

this, is, hard., We, have, an, intentional world right now where we're where one we're all very far apart and the stakes are very high and everything you said about Donald Trump and more is true. I think to describe reality honestly is to say things that if you're a fan of Donald, Trump, are, going to, be, hard, to hear right?

That's, right. To, get, attention,, you, need, conflict., You have been without any peer the most successful elected Democrat this year and getting social media attention

by, mimicking, Trump's, style., Um, talking about JD's Vance's love of couches.

Yeah,, forgive, me. Uh, you, know,, selling, knee, pads. Uh, don't, forgive, me., You, should, buy them. A lot of people sold out and so have the knee pads.

So, it's, a, good, joke,, but, there's, a tension between getting attention by leaning into conflict and being a repairer of the breach. And I'm curious because I think you are sincere in all these directions how you think about that tension.

I, think, I, look, there's, so, much situational politics now. We have to deal with the reality at hand. I I'm I can't wait to hold hands, have a cand talk about the how we can come to I I everyone that says that is right. I mean there plenty of people that are already auditioning for president of the United States and they say we just need to focus on a positive alternative agenda that economically is inclusive and address these trend all and they're right and we there's a world post Trump and they're right but right now we have to protect and preserve our republic this democracy it's code red this guy has masked men all across this country people are disappearing in real time it's still happening you federalized national guard still in California you had 700 active duty Marines in the United States of America in the second largest city in my state. You had this guy put Bortac teams out near Dodger

Stadium on election day to chill free expression, free speech and a free election uh just a few weeks ago in California. This guy is not screwing around. We have to fight fire with fire. That's what Prop 50 is about in that reality. So it's situation the redistricting about it and that's what we've tried to do with our social media to enter into then these conversations that by the way helped aid in a bet the fact that we were able to raise almost $120 million in 90 days to get Prop 50 passed and to build the political coalition to make that happen. So substance not just style for all the knee pads and everything else there's a there's a utility for doing it. It's not just mockery. It's not just trolling. It actually for me serves a bigger purpose.

But in terms of how we get to the other side, in terms of how we lock hands moving forward, how we govern the next president of the United States, not about me, whoever the next president needs to be prepared. We can't keep this up. We're polarized. We're traumatized. We're exhausted. I can't even conceive of three more years of this. It's ex what's happening to our kids. Their brains are already being scrambled by social media and everything else we didn't even talk about. And but but this this is their role model. A guy who calls someone a Guy calls someone a piggy. This is our role model.

The president of the United States. You go back to Obama's brilliant speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. And you listen to it now and it sounds naive, right? You can you can feel the power in it that we're not red and blue. We're not as divided as a spin the spin misters think.

So, I, love, it. But, We, are, that, divided, actually., But one thing I see you like playing with again between the podcast and the social media, between sitting down with Kirk and Bannon and trolling Trump and Vance is a sort of a both and politics. I don't know where that goes for you or for anybody

but, I, think, there's, some, interesting question in it. What does it mean to not say that the other side of this is unity or common ground, much less an end to disagreement, but some kind of living amidst the disagreement [snorts] that is more like the way a good family handles it? Yeah. I mean, and despite the fact we struggle every Thanksgiving, I did again this year with some members of the family uh that see the world with a different set of eyes. It it goes back to the fundamental point. Divorce is not a damn option. It just isn't. We have I mean, back to Clinton, he talked about defining the terms of our future. Um and so at the end of the day, we don't have a choice. There's no leak on your side of our boat. We rise and fall together. And I just think this notion of bringing humanity back, that's not good politics. It's just human decency.

Look, I'm sorry I'm sitting here with Ezra Klein, but the first thing I should say, it's an abundance mindset, okay? It's not a scarcity mindset. This notion, it goes back to what you were saying about JD Vance and that that speech he gave. This notion that it is scarcity. It's zero sum. That something's being taken away. I mean, I don't live like that in California. It's always been abundance. That's what the There's only one dream. The American dream. Oh, and the California dream. And it's all about abundant mindset. If you know if some does this we have to invent it and there's a sense of limitlessness in that

and, then, always, our, final, question, what are three books or giving your giving your turn to podcasting through podcast

well, I, mentioned, built, to, last, you recommend to the audience, I, got, to, tell, you, people, really should I wasn't joking about built to last it it it it's so interesting to have a book that shaped me early on when I was aspiring to be a small business person I got right out of college took pen to paper and came up with an idea to open a little a store with 13 investors and I had one part-time employee Pat Kelly and she encouraged me. She said "You have to read the book Built to Last." It was about a Stanford at Stanford uh academic that was studying what works, what makes companies endure.

Um and talked about being a clock builder versus a timekeeper. Talked about the genius of an versus the tyranny of war. It changed my mindset and my outlook political political terms, not just in business terms. I hate to bring this book up because it's such a universal obvious book. I had never read it. I've had 10 copies. I finally picked it up off the off the shelf. I'm like, "What the heck?" Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. And I'm like, "Where the hell have I been or where's that book?

Get, into, podcasting, and, immediately, the Stoics." I'm, telling, you, can't, can't, be, can't, be, a, podcaster, and not get into the Stoics.

How, could, you, not?, I, don't, think, there's ever perhaps there's never been more important and impactful words ever written and they were written by the most powerful leaders in the world thousand years. Book

doesn't, do, it, for, me. You've, I've, read, it., I, read, it. You, didn't. It's, not, a, I, I, have, a, feeling, about, it and I think this is because I was never it was never a book for publication as you know. So it was not intended to um the thing I don't always get with it is that yes, if I could just not worry about all this, I wouldn't. If I could just look at all the problems in my life think you know can't change what I can't change I wouldn't I wouldn't

I, read, something, very, different, it's, not it's not about denying the existence of things

I, don't, think, it's, about, deny it's, about, understanding, what, you, can practice

but, no, the, opposite, I, see, that's, so interesting I think it expresses the practice and that is you can control what you can control you can't control the third thing and that's powerful and this notion of accountability responsibility agency and taking accountability for what happened. You can't and I I just think that's powerful but it's the core of minor psychology as well in terms of just this notion uh that we have agency and that we can shape things and change my box after uh admitting that I love the book. I'm I'm going to, leave, all, those, stoics, out there listening. Look and only I mean I just because I was with Andrew yesterday and I I did promise I was going to read 1929. So, you can't recommend it if you haven't read it.

No,, I, just, started, reading, it., Oh,, you did start? No, I haven't finished it but I actually legitimately just started reading it. So, it's the one that just actually truthfully uh on the proverbial the nightstand.

Governor, Gavin, Newsome, really, enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Thank, you.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "How Gavin Newsom Became the Democrats’ 2028 Frontrunner | The Ezra Klein Show"?

Ezra Klein (Guest), Gavin Newsom (Guest), Jonathan Martin (Guest), Charlie Kirk (Guest), Atrioc (referred to as “Atriarch” in transcript) (Guest), Sean Hannity (Guest), Ron DeSantis (Guest), Andrew Ross Sorkin (Guest).

What is "How Gavin Newsom Became the Democrats’ 2028 Frontrunner | The Ezra Klein Show" about?

The discussion centers on Gavin Newsom, the Governor of California, and his emerging status as a potential frontrunner for the 2028 Democratic presidential nomination. Despite initial skepticism about his electability due to perceptions of California's governance and his profile as a liberal figure, Newsom's leadership and willingness to take risks have positioned him favorably within the party…

What is mentioned in this The Ezra Klein Show episode?

301 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Donald Trump, Governor Gavin Newsom, California, Ezra Klein, Democratic Party, Democratic Party. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "How Gavin Newsom Became the Democrats’ 2028 Frontrunner | The Ezra Klein Show"?

The episode runs 1 h 49 min; the transcript is about 21,341 words in 313 timestamped sections.

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About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 24, 2026.