Transcript

Spencer Cox Wants to Pull Our Politics Back From the Brink | The Ezra Klein Show

From The Ezra Klein Show · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

September 19, 2025 · 58 min · 11,351 words · 75 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Spencer Cox Wants to Pull Our Politics Back From the Brink | The Ezra Klein Show", an episode of The Ezra Klein Show published September 19, 2025 (58 min, about 11,351 words). It mentions 57 people, works and ideas, including civil war, Spencer Cox, Federalism, Virginia, New York, New York.

What is discussed, and when

0:00 – 5:00: Antifa, Carnegie Foundation, civil war, National Governors Association
5:00 – 10:00: White House, Marco Rubio, Telecommunications providers
10:00 – 15:00: civil war, Minnesota House, Why We're Polarized
15:00 – 20:00: Jodie Foster
20:00 – 25:00: civil war
25:00 – 30:00: Democratic Party, Joy Reid, Michelle Obama, Sheila Jackson Lee
30:00 – 35:00: civil war, Gilded Age, Great Depression, More in Common
35:00 – 40:00: Federalism, New York, New York, Virginia, New Hampshire
40:00 – 45:00: Bowling Alone, Elks Lodge, Harvard, Lions Club
45:00 – 50:00: Blue Sky, Democratic Party, SuperMobile, T-Mobile
50:00 – 55:00: Discord, Federalism, Frank McCort, Our Biggest Fight
55:00 – 58:29: The Pursuit of Happiness, A Time to Build, American Covenant, Declaration of Independence

Notable quotes from "Spencer Cox Wants to Pull Our Politics Back From the Brink | The Ezra Klein Show"

The governor of Utah is Spencer Cox.
about Spencer Cox · at 1:20
Back then that you felt we were quote facing a toxic debate unlike anything we've seen since the Civil War. What were you seeing then that made you say that?
about civil war · at 2:38
Happening. And in one of those first convenings we were in New Hampshire actually on a college campus and we had an expert who came in from the Carnegie Foundation who had done some research around this type of political.
about New Hampshire · at 3:33
Information you get early on. And then 30 seconds later, I have the White House on the phone. Actually, it was Marco Rubio, Secretary Rubio, who was in the situation room for something else, who was there. I have a great relationship.
about White House · at 6:48
Edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that.
about T-Mobile · at 26:12
People to the January 6 protests, sanitizing this guy who said the Democratic Party hates America, said the Civil Rights Act was a mistake.
about Democratic Party · at 26:57
Mistakes that we have made over the last 250 years with our country is losing the concept of federalism so much. One of the brilliant things that they did that was very unique.…
about Federalism · at 37:07
Us. It is our agency. I'm I believe there's a great book called our biggest fight by Frank McCort that I would recommend where they make a really interesting argument that they're taking our agency from us and that our identity.
about Our Biggest Fight · at 50:11

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

Spencer Cox — Person · 3 mentions · first at 1:20
Frank McCort — Person · 2 mentions · first at 50:20
Believe there's a great book called our biggest fight by Frank McCort that I would recommend where they make a really interesting argument that they're taking our agency from us and that our identity really our personal freedom is bound.
Marco Rubio — Person · 1 mention · first at 6:56
Then 30 seconds later, I have the White House on the phone. Actually, it was Marco Rubio, Secretary Rubio, who was in the situation room for something else, who was there. I have a great relationship with him. He called and it.
Jodie Foster — Person · 1 mention · first at 15:04
Trying to impress Jodie Foster locked inside some kind of mania, not some kind of legible political actor. you were up there sort of getting that information as it came in. I guess.
Joy Reid — Person · 1 mention · first at 27:04
Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Katangi Brown Jackson, they're coming out and they're saying, I'm only here because of affirmative action. Yeah, we know you do not have.
Michelle Obama — Person · 1 mention · first at 27:04
Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Katangi Brown Jackson, they're coming out and they're saying, I'm only here because of affirmative action. Yeah, we know you do not have.
Sheila Jackson Lee — Person · 1 mention · first at 27:04
Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Katangi Brown Jackson, they're coming out and they're saying, I'm only here because of affirmative action. Yeah, we know you do not have.
Jeffrey Rosen — Person · 1 mention · first at 57:12
This polarization that we're in right now. the last one I will mention is one by Jeffrey Rosen and it's about the Declaration of Independence is called the Pursuit of Happiness. as we're celebrating 250 years. that phrase.
Marcus Aurelius — Person · 1 mention · first at 57:37
Of happiness was a term that actually dates back to the stoics back to Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius and and the Stoics they understood the founders understood the pursuit of…
George Putnam — Person · 1 mention
John Hinckley Jr. — Person · 1 mention
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

Our Biggest Fight — Book · 2 mentions · first at 50:17
The Pursuit of Happiness — Book · 2 mentions · first at 57:20
Rosen and it's about the Declaration of Independence is called the Pursuit of Happiness. as we're celebrating 250 years. that phrase the the that phrase in the declaration. So life we all understand what life is. Liberty that's.
Why We're Polarized — Book · 1 mention · first at 10:36
Very specific light. in 2020, I published my first book, which is called Why We're Polarized. And the final paragraphs of that book are this argument that I make about realism.
Bowling Alone — Book · 1 mention · first at 43:32
When Professor Putnham at Harvard produces a book writes a book called Bowling Alone. And this idea of loneliness is I believe is at the core of all of our greatest problems in this country right now. If you look through history, there is.
The Anxious Generation — Book · 1 mention · first at 49:37
Are you know I know we both know Jonathan height who's who's written the kind of the pre-minent book the anxious generation I was talking to Jonathan well before anxious…
A Time to Build — Book · 1 mention · first at 56:54
The first one was called A Time to Build. and that it's it's really a rehash of almost everything we've talked about today. And then American Covenant was his latest one,.
American Covenant — Book · 1 mention · first at 57:01
Really a rehash of almost everything we've talked about today. And then American Covenant was his latest one, which is kind of the answer to A Time to Build. American Covenant…

Companies & orgs

Democratic Party — Company · 2 mentions · first at 27:01
National Governors Association — Company · 1 mention · first at 2:52
Well, I was I was taking over as chair of the National Governor's Association and as chair, you get to do an initiative. Everybody gets to do something. And I was looking at healthcare cost escalation. I was.
Carnegie Foundation — Company · 1 mention · first at 3:42
New Hampshire actually on a college campus and we had an expert who came in from the Carnegie Foundation who had done some research around this type of political violence that we were seeing in our country. And the.
Telecommunications providers — Company · 1 mention · first at 6:08
Events. I driven to a small town in Utah called Mona where we talked to telecommunications providers and then came back and I was actually having lunch with my staff. We have a…
Minnesota House — Company · 1 mention · first at 11:36
The attempted the assassination of President Trump, the assassination of the former speaker of the Minnesota House, now of Kirk. It's knowing it's coming into this context. And…
More in Common — Company · 1 mention · first at 30:25
And again pretty pessimistic. We haven't heard a lot of hopefulness yet. First of all, more in common, the group has done some tremendous research about how we are divided and…
Utah State University — Company · 1 mention · first at 41:13
I couldn't agree more. When I graduated from Utah State University in 1998, the if you took political science 101, which I did, the first thing you learn in there is that all politics.
Harvard — Company · 1 mention · first at 43:30
Back to the to the early 2000s when Professor Putnham at Harvard produces a book writes a book called Bowling Alone. And this idea of loneliness is I believe is at the core of all of our greatest problems in this country right now. If.
Rotary Club — Company · 1 mention · first at 43:50
One of my favorite things to do when I'm in a crowd is to ask how many of you belong to the Rotary Club and you know 50 years ago or something like that, a Lions Club, whatever…
Lions Club — Company · 1 mention · first at 43:54
Belong to the Rotary Club and you know 50 years ago or something like that, a Lions Club, whatever volunteer organization, an Elks Lodge, something like that, almost every hand would have gone up. and now almost no hands go up. true.
Elks Lodge — Company · 1 mention · first at 43:55
Know 50 years ago or something like that, a Lions Club, whatever volunteer organization, an Elks Lodge, something like that, almost every hand would have gone up. and now almost no hands go up. true.
X Corporation — Company · 1 mention · first at 44:27
I if I don't have any real friends in my town, at least I can hate the same people together on Facebook, right? that's that's what that's where it starts. I do just want to say…
Discord — Company · 1 mention · first at 53:26
This differently. I hope people will log off of social media and especially, Discord and 4chan and the these the deepest and darkest places and find human beings again. You said it best. It's not that we're we're lonely and seeking.
University of Utah — Company · 1 mention · first at 54:57
There are several of them. I unwittingly a professor at the University of Utah sent a video that I filmed with my Democratic opponent in 2020 when we were trying to deescalate coming out of that terrible summer George Floyd and.
FBI — Company · 1 mention
MSNBC — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

UCLA Speed Test — Product · 2 mentions · first at 26:21
They're now the best network according to the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless.
SuperMobile — Product · 2 mentions · first at 26:24
To the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security…
Uclt Intelligence Data — Product · 1 mention · first at 26:38
Best network based on analysis by Uclt Intelligence Data 1 2022.
Blue Sky — Product · 1 mention · first at 47:10
And seeing what it is like when I log on and try to check the temperature on X on Blue Sky, on other platforms, it's night and day.
4chan — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

civil war — Concept · 4 mentions · first at 2:44
Federalism — Concept · 3 mentions · first at 37:12
Antifa — Concept · 1 mention · first at 0:25
Antifa is terrible. The Democrat party is not a political party. It is a domestic extremist organization.
Gilded Age — Concept · 1 mention · first at 31:11
We've talked about the 60s. I think you can go back to the Gilded Age and certainly the Great Depression and how we found ourselves out of that. this is not out of the realm of things that happen in our country. And so, yes,.
Great Depression — Concept · 1 mention · first at 31:11
We've talked about the 60s. I think you can go back to the Gilded Age and certainly the Great Depression and how we found ourselves out of that. this is not out of the realm of things that happen in our country. And so, yes,.
Declaration of Independence — Concept · 1 mention · first at 57:18
Mention is one by Jeffrey Rosen and it's about the Declaration of Independence is called the Pursuit of Happiness. as we're celebrating 250 years. that phrase the the that phrase in the declaration. So life we all.
Stoics — Concept · 1 mention · first at 57:35
Happiness we misunderstand. The pursuit of happiness was a term that actually dates back to the stoics back to Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius and and the Stoics they understood…
1960s — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

Virginia — Place · 3 mentions · first at 37:50
Different from New Hampshire or you I guess we're going back a little bit. So maybe I should say Virginia, very different than New York, right?
New York, New York — Place · 3 mentions · first at 37:52
Guess I guess we're going back a little bit. So maybe I should say Virginia, very different than New York, right?
New Hampshire — Place · 2 mentions · first at 3:38
White House — Place · 2 mentions · first at 6:53
San Francisco — Place · 1 mention · first at 40:33
Is happening in a school district they now hate or what is going what they think about how crime is policed in San Francisco. and these are local issues, but I don't think…
Monaco — Place · 1 mention
Texas — Place · 1 mention
Utah — Place · 1 mention

Sponsors

T-Mobile — Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 26:17

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 We increasingly feel like we're in the scenario I've been worried about since the moment Charlie Kirk was shot where his death, his assassination is used by those in power to excuse a crackdown on those they have already seen themselves is at war with. We're trying to figure out how to prevent this festering violence that you see on the far left from becoming even more and more mainstream. Antifa is terrible. The Democrat party is not a political party. It is a domestic extremist organization. We will absolutely target you, go after you.

0:36 With God as my witness, we are going to use every resource we have to identify, disrupt, dismantle, and destroy these networks and make America safe again for the American people. It will happen and we will do it in Charlie's name. I think it's a very, very, very dangerous moment, but it's not inevitable. Leadership is always a choice. You can choose to use a moment like this to deepen our divisions, to pull us apart from each other, to make politics into something yet that much closer to war. Or you can use a moment like this to reduce them, to try to take the country in a different direction than the one we've been going in. We have had over the past week and change an example of that kind of leadership, too. Charlie Kirk was murdered in Utah.

1:20 The governor of Utah is Spencer Cox. Over the last 48 hours, I have been as sad as I have ever been. A Republican, a conservative, but one who is very, very concerned about the ways we've been coming apart as a country. We will never be able to solve all the other problems, including the violence problems, if we can't have a clash of ideas safely and securely. He didn't come to this on that day. He's been thinking about political deescalation, thinking about the way we disagree with each other and how we can do it in a way that does not tear us apart for years now. I believe the most critical threat in our country today is the belief on both sides that the other side is trying to destroy our country.

2:03 It's that mistaken belief, that perception gap that causes both sides to justify breaking norms and institutions because they they think the other side is going to do it if they don't. And so I wanted to have him on the show to talk about what that day, that week was like for him, what it has left him thinking about and what he thinks we should do now. Governor Cox, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Ezra. So I want to start in 2023. You said back then that you felt we were quote facing a toxic debate unlike anything we've seen since the Civil War. What were you seeing then that made you say that?

2:50 Well, I was uh I I was taking over as chair of the National Governor's Association and uh as as chair, you get to do an initiative. Everybody gets to do something. And and I was looking at at healthcare cost escalation. I was looking at critical minerals and energy production. And uh we we had this conversation with my team and just decided that we we uh we couldn't solve any of the biggest problems facing our country if we all hated each other. And uh and so one of my my team members had had this idea, what if we focused on kind of the toxic polarization as our initiative for for the NGA spent a year um working with experts across the country uh trying to figure out if there's there's real research around um how we could deescalate what what was happening. And uh in in one of those first convenings uh we were we were in New Hampshire actually on a college campus and and uh we we had an expert

3:42 who came in from the the Carnegie Foundation who had done some research around uh around this type of political violence uh that uh that that we were we were seeing in our country. And the the report came back that uh that we were kind of blowing through all those checkpoints towards um some some very serious division. uh the you know potential for a a catastrophic uh decline in uh in kind of western civilization and uh and and and and a serious increase in political violence and just led us to believe that that we were on the cusp of something pretty dark.

4:18 When you did that research when you spoke to those experts what were the kinds of conditions that revealed themselves to you as as as dangerous? What were the the sort of checkpoints that people worried about that that you saw us breaching? Yeah. So, a lot of it has to do with uh with the way we talk about each other in in our politics. Um the rhetoric that we were seeing from uh from elected officials. It's it's the inability to accomplish uh big things. The uh the the lack of civility that we're we're seeing. And and I kind of don't like the term civility anymore because uh we think civility means kind of holding hands and kumbaya and and that's it's it's it's something much much deeper than that. Threats of political violence to members of Congress and uh threats against uh judges uh had doubled in less than a decade. Attempted assassinations that we had seen the the different types of shootings the rise of um of

5:17 illiberalism I I I guess for for lack of a better term but the rejection of of western norms of of of free speech for example um others uh c campus protests coming out of 2020 the January 6th and and the George Floyd and the the riots that we had seen in the streets during 2020 all of those things combined for a uh for kind of a tinder box uh when it comes to our our body politic so that was something you begun to think about I mean at least as early as 2023 I want to move us into the present talk me through September December 10th for you, the day Charlie Kirk was was murdered in in Utah.

5:58 What was that day like? What happened? Yeah. Well, I mean, it started out like like any other day. I had I had a couple events. I driven to to a small town in Utah called Mona where we we talked to telecommunications providers and uh and then came back and and I was actually having lunch with uh with my staff. We have a quarterly birthday lunch and it was my quarter. I had a birthday in July and and we were really excited. just gotten my plate of food to sit down when my assistant came and grabbed me and said, "I I need you immediately." Uh we had a captain and a lieutenant from my uh from my highway patrol who who told me that uh that that Mr. Kirk had been shot and uh and I I couldn't believe it.

6:34 I I knew he was in town. I knew he was on campus. And uh I thought I I said, "Are you sure?" Uh because there's as a governor, you've learned pretty quickly that there's a fog of war when it comes to these types of of events. And you know, you really can't trust any information you get early on. And uh and then 30 seconds later, I I have uh the White House on the phone. Actually, it was it was Marco Rubio, Secretary Rubio, who was who was in the situation room for something else, who was who was there. Uh I have a great relationship with him. He he he called and uh and it it's and from there it was just how do we get the right information? Uh were other people shot and injured? which hospital is he at? What is his condition? Uh the initial report I got that he was uh he was awake and and responsive. And uh that that of course was not true. And so I said, "Look, I need one of our people at the hospital."

7:27 So so we have the right information. And uh then I I get, you know, condition Delta, which is is is not great. Um and uh and then a few minutes later um a fatal and you know that that called to the White House to inform them uh what had happened and and then just trying to figure out you know who is this? We have a suspect in custody but that's not the guy and and now we're you know we're we're chasing what what do we know? Did anybody see anything? Is there any video? And everybody wants information and no one has any information. and and and that's the that's the hardest part because then people start to make up information and trying to f figure out what's real, what's not, and then you're dealing with, well, who's in charge? You have uh you have campus police department, you have the the county sheriff, you have the state, you have the FBI and the feds who are coming in, who's taking lead, who's you know, who's

8:18 got what assignment? And just trying to organize all that is uh in real time is is something. Look, I I I just said the uh the governor before me, I was lieutenant governor. He did not leave me a handbook um explaining how to deal with the political assassination. Uh it's never happened here. Uh we're just making it up as we go along. What were your first thoughts about what this meant when you knew Kirk had died, about what it meant for the country, about what it meant for our politics? My first thoughts were were certainly for his wife and kids and and um I I just in in that moment in every moment you know he's he's a dad and a husband first and foremost and and that's the kind of the sickening pit in the stomach. The the second one is you know you just you and and by the way every governor does this.

9:03 You worry about your state. Um like oh my gosh how how could this happen here? especially because we we really pride ourselves on trying to be a little different uh and and trying to be the type of people that are are peacemakers that uh that we we lead the nation in service every year. We lead the nation in charitable giving. It's kind of part of of our our brand and our DNA and and who we are. And you're you're like this this, you know, please just not here. How could how could this happen here? Um, but but I think the thing that that really hit so quickly to me and I and I don't think it hit for a lot of people that were dealing with this here in Utah was the what this actually meant in in a bigger picture that this wasn't a local shooting or something that impacts us that this was much much bigger both because, you know, I now have the president of the United States on the phone with me within within an hour. Um,

9:56 so that that's different than anything else, right? Um but but two what just just what this means um culturally and and as somebody who has been working on this for for many years understanding that this is something different. This is this is you you know I I guess if the the president getting shot President Trump the attempted assassination would have been the same but he he survived that. Uh but this is this is a big one. I mean, you have to go back a long time in our nation's history for something of this magnitude, for a large segment of the population who who held him in a very very specific light. You know, in 2020, I published my first book, which is called Why We're Polarized. And the final paragraphs of that book are this argument that that I make about realism.

10:46 that as polarized, as divided as things feel, I mean, you can look back in our history and see it much worse. Not just the Civil War, but but I I say look back at the 60s. Look at the political violence. Look at the assassinations. Look at the violence in the streets. We are in so much better of a place today than we were then. And I've been thinking in the last few days that when I was on the tour for that book, one of the things I kept saying though was that my nightmare scenario is something like the 60s but with today's hyperpolarized parties, hyperpolarized media, hyperpolarized social media, and you know, as I've watched the rise in political violence, the attempted kidnapping of Nancy Pelosi and then the assault on her husband, the attempted firebombing of Josh Shapiro's residence, the attempted the assassination of President Trump, the assassination of the former speaker of the Minnesota

11:38 House, now of Kirk. It's knowing it's coming into this context. And I just when I saw Kirk had died, I just remember my stomach sinking and it and the future going foggy because we're not well equipped for this right now. That that that dark pit in your stomach. I'm glad I'm glad you said that because um I I that was one one of the first feelings I had just this this wave of nausea kind of washes over you and uh I if if you didn't feel something like that again regardless of your politics then um then I I I do believe there's something broken inside of us when we we don't feel that. Um, and and again understanding there are a lot of people out there that disagree vehemently with with maybe everything that that Charlie Kirk said. Um, although I suspect if you heard everything he said, you you would probably find some things that you agreed with. But but that that is part of the issue, right? Is uh and you're

12:41 right. I I mentioned in in one of my press conferences after a question that uh that this the 60s are important, I think, to go back to. I I think that in fact I' I've I've actually in the last couple days been trying to look uh for the definitive piece on how we got out of that kind of 1969 into the '7s. H how did we get what was the offramp there? And I I I'm not sure I found that uh that definitive piece yet. But but you are also right and I think this is so critical to understand the differences between then and now and the way we get our information and consume our information and share our innermost thoughts and feelings with each other in in such rapid succession and the way the algorithms especially um steal our our um our agency and and addict us to them and and and show us the the worst of humanity to to get us that dopamine hit from outrage. That is very different.

13:38 You know, when when when John F. Kennedy is assassinated, uh you you have to go turn on a television and uh and some breaking news. Um and uh and we we other political assassinations were were not caught on on tape. So you you don't have tape of that. Um Martin Luther King, you know, Junior is as an example of that. It's not being looped on social media in front of everybody over and over and over again in a way that desensitizes us. uh again in a way that we're we're not uh we we should not be capable of processing. So So what what if if you take that that kind of that hate and and divisiveness and polarization of the 60s and and implanted into today's different culture and media culture and uh and polarization. It's it's a recipe for something I I believe far more worse than than that. And and that's that's exactly why you and I on very different ends of the political se spectrum had that same pit in our stomachs. Over

14:39 those next few days after the the shooting, I think everyone was desperate to know who the killer was, why they did it. I had so many private conversations with people and what they would say to me is I'm like, I just hope he's not or she's not, but I think people assumed it was a man. X, right? where X was their politics, right? Just let them be illegible. Let this be John Hankley Jr. trying to impress Jodie Foster locked inside some kind of mania, not some kind of legible political actor. Um, you were up there sort of getting that information as it came in. I I guess I've had a question about our whole debate over politics and and motive.

15:26 What is knowing a lone gunman's motive tell us and not tell us? What what meaning does it permit us to make? Because I think we're looking for it as a way of making meaning and what doesn't it? Yeah, it's it's fascinating. You know, I I said in uh in that that initial press conference that or or one of them that I had hoped it wasn't a Uton that somebody had driven from another state or from another country. By, by the way, just as an aside, in real time, watching um some people of a of a different political ideology take that and accuse me of racism that I wanted it to be an illegal immigrant or something is just seeing that happen is is just crazy to me. But that's that's there there is no no generosity. Uh there there's we see that and and it's happened to me on on both sides of the political spectrum. I believe firmly and what what I've tried to do is just to share what the facts are. Um because too often we we kind of

16:23 we we have a tendency to hide those things and when we do that then we lose trust and and we've lost so much trust in our institutions, so much trust in our elected leaders. Um if this had been, you know, if if if there was clear evidence right up front that, you know, this guy had a MAGA hat and and had been uh had been MAGA, I I would have said that too. I So I I don't I I think it's important that we understand the facts of every single one of these cases, whatever it is. There are examples and you've pointed out examples and I pointed out examples of people all across the political spectrum who have committed these atrocities. And uh I I I think it's it's only helpful in that we do need to try to figure out if there is something we can do society um to prevent these things from happening. And the only way to do that is to find out why they happened and how they happened.

17:13 And if if there is a certain belief system or a a a way that people went from one fairly normally held belief to something else trying to understand the human condition in such a way that are are there things we can do to try to prevent this from happening again and I think those are those are worthy discussions but if we're only trying to find out the motive of the person or or or you know the political ideology of the person so that we can feel better about ourselves or or or to hate a broad group of people who have no intention or no I you know don't support this type of of behavior in any way then that's not that's not healthy.

17:51 I mean I think we're trying to find it out because we want to know but then the question is what do we do with that knowledge? Um you said that the evidence suggests the the shooter had a leftist ideology. I've watched the Trump administration in the days since saying that there is a crackdown on you know what they call the radical left without defining it that is now necessary that we shouldn't be thinking of this as the act of one man. We should be thinking of it as the outcome of some broader network culture ideology that if this is to be a safe society needs to be repressed oppressed um destroyed.

18:31 What have you thought about that? Yeah. So, I've uh I I I've obvious obviously heard that. Um I I I've tried to be careful in a couple ways. One, my political ideology and and uh and my faith um teaches that that uh that every person is responsible for their own actions. So, we have agency and that it's it's the greatest gift that that we've been given as human beings. and and this this person made a very very very terrible decision in a society we need to hold that person accountable to again to the greatest extent of the law and I always caution against removing agency from a person that this person didn't have a choice that this person acted because he had been acted upon I I think that's a big mistake I think that's a that's that's an illiberal ideology and uh it's something that I I reject when the left does it and and I reject when the the right does it um as to the radicalization piece and and

19:28 again I know that wasn't defined as as as radical left or whatever that is. Um I I I I think we do need a deeper dive to understand uh what what is radicalization and how does radicalization happen and are there things we can do to prevent that from happening and uh and so that's um that that is a worthy discussion but but but we have to do that within the the the bonds of our constitution and and the and within the the bounds of the law. Look, I I don't I don't get to speak for Charlie. I I don't and I don't I I don't presume to um I I I didn't have a relationship uh like like Vice President Vance or others. And so I I I just I want to be clear about that. But but I one of the things I I I truly appreciated about Charlie was his defense of of of being willing to show up on campus and engage. His defense of these uh of of the the founders vision for our country, his defense of free speech. I go around universities and

20:29 have challenging conversations um because that's what is so important to our country is to find our disagreements respectfully cuz when people stop talking that's when violence happens. His words about if we if we stop talking to each other that's when that the violence starts. When people stop talking that's when you get violence that's when civil war happens because you start to think the other side is so evil and they lose their humanity. I don't think that you can remove this a radical ideology through just pure repression or uh or the means of government enforcement. I I think it's going to take more speech and more sunlight and more disagreement uh more more words and uh and less less violence. Now again, if if there if there is a way to do that, I'm I'm I'm certainly open to to understanding it.

21:28 But but I truly think that the answer to getting rid of what got us into this situation is not more of that the type of thing that uh that that these anarchists or or e evil people are are have brewing in their in their souls. What do you think about the people on the right who say look this was a guy you know at his best at least who is trying to operate through persuasion who is trying to do politics the way you all say it should be done and this just shows you can't right they tried to kill Donald Trump they tried to kill Charlie Kirk they you know they they'll come for all of us eventually this has been a more common reaction in some ways than I would have expected I do think it reflects people who as I have spoken to them and tried to understand where they are coming from get more death threats than I realized right so I think they've you know many of them have been quite radicalized by

22:14 that but but the sense of this you know he tried to do it through persuasion he was killed the period of persuasion of normal politics is over how do you respond to people who want to give up on politics in that way well I I first respond with a great deal of compassion and and sympathy I I I actually think that's a very normal reaction and and it's one I've had to kind questioned myself on on many occasions. You know, that's uh uh he's he's literally in the act of doing the thing that he said would would help us prevent violence and and he's been killed for it. And so it's it it makes it really easy. I I I just think that's a human response. And I I think we should we should give a lot of grace for that response. and uh and and and then I hope that uh that we can elevate what what what he taught and and and the reasons behind it and understanding what the consequences of rejecting that actually mean. And this

23:13 is where I I I think uh many people some intentionally but but most unintentionally don't think through the consequences of uh of rejecting what he was was preaching and and what he was standing for. And I my my question is okay and then what right where does that take us and how do we engage then in a way that doesn't lead to more of of what just happened. Um I I I will tell you when I when I started that that disagree better initiative I I got attacked on the right and the left and uh the attack on the right was was generally and and again I'm I'm overgeneralizing here but but generally it was oh you just want us to get along you want us to hold hands.

23:55 You want a a kumbaya moment. you just want us to uh capitulate, right? And uh that that's not what I meant at all. I I chose the the term disagree first because I think disagreement is absolutely critical that we should be fighting as as you do on on your podcast um and as as I do in other ways uh for what I believe in and and and doing everything possible to win elections and uh and and to convince people to join our side and our tent so that we can we can adopt policies that make a difference. I don't think unity means agreeing together. As Yuvolivin says, I I think uh it means acting together and acting together is very different.

24:31 Acting together is acting within the constraints that the constitution gives us. The disagreement that came from the left was was actually different than that. It was why should I talk to those people? Why why would I engage with those people? And uh as Charlie said, I I actually do believe that is more dangerous. Um, I I do believe it is more dangerous when we're not talking to each other. Look, um, there's there's two ways this can go. And I I I've warned people before, if if you don't like Charlie Kirk, um, what comes after Charlie Kirk is going to be far far worse. Charlie had a vision for for young men in in this country. a a vision of of self-worth, a a vision of of building a a vision of of of morality, uh g getting out of the party culture and uh g getting, you know, out of the the uh the darkest parts of the internet and uh and and building a life, getting married, having kids, um human

25:30 flourishing, which I think is so important, you know, pushing back against the the Andrew Tates and and and others on the more liberal side of things. And and I think I think that that is is a good thing. And and and you know, I've heard it said that uh by by killing Charlie Kirk, you've now created a million more Charlie Kirks. And uh that the best version of that can be very healthy for us. But I I don't know that I have a great answer except that the only way we survive as a country. Um the only way that our ideals that created this grand experiment 250 years ago only survives if we can uh if we can find an off-ramp and continue to engage with each other. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that.

26:19 They're now the best network according to the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Uclt Intelligence Data 1 2022. There's a a worse version of Kirk and Kirkism, too. You're talking about criticism from the left. The the criticism I've gotten on quite a bit of from the left in the past week or so has been that you're sanitizing this guy.

26:54 You're sanitizing this guy who bust people to the January 6 protests, sanitizing this guy who said the Democratic Party hates America, said the Civil Rights Act was a mistake. Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Katangi Brown Jackson, they're coming out and they're saying, "I'm only here because of affirmative action." Yeah, we know you do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously. You had to go steal a white person's slot to go be taken somewhat seriously. Sanitizing this guy who said Spencer Cox should be expelled from the Republican party. That there was a side of him that did dialogue, although some people feel he weaponized it. But there's a side of him that was also open to much more illiberal means and and and they see that running through and they say that um in pretending that this was a a kind of path that we could all be on together, right? This is sort of related

27:51 to the critique you got from the left that they cannot there's not a way to be in community with people who do not want to be in community with you. And that there's a kind of pretense being made here by people who want to, you know, be in some kind of center, have some kumbaya moment that is whitewashing how divided we are. Disagree better is fine when our disagreements are within a certain range. But I think something I have become more sensitized to even last week is how many people think our disagreements are already out of that range. that we have already gone through some kind of national divorce and the question we're really in now is simply in what way it will be affectuated.

28:38 Sure. And and and I've I've heard those you know those same complaints I've heard them for a long time far before uh the uh you know the assassination of of Charlie Kirk. Uh and to a guy who uh a couple years ago you know a few years ago did want me out of the Republican party. I I I've been told he doesn't share that sentiment. He didn't share that sentiment now, but I I I get that and I applaud it and that's that's great. I that that's exactly what we're talking about here is that we can have these type of disagreements and and that that the people that are are talking to you can very much use their platform to say that uh that they don't think we should whitewash everything that he said and that they had real concerns with him. That is part of what we're we're trying to do. That's that's part of the grand experiment. I I don't think they should give up those views, their opposition to uh to Charlie Kirk or

29:33 their opposition to me. I I think that is that is well within bounds and and and what we should be doing. I I do worry that you and I still are are too trapped into a um a very deep political culture. This is where we spend our time. We talk to people who are deeply ingrained in political culture. We spend a lot of time with people who are are very much online. I'm I'm online too much. Uh you probably are too. And we we start to think that this is the the real world. All those people you're hearing from about whitewashing Charlie Kirk, the truth of the matter is a lot of people had never heard of Charlie Kirk before this happened. And I think we forget that. And um they're learning about this in real time. As to that concept of of a national divorce. public um and and and I know this this uh this conversation has been pretty dark and and and again pretty pessimistic. We we haven't heard a lot a lot of hopefulness

30:25 yet. First of all, more in common, the group has done some some tremendous research about how we we are divided and the different ways we're divided. And what they found was 70% of Americans hate where we are right now. They're desperate for something different. And neither party is offering them an opportunity for anything different. there is a market failure as as we traditionally understand market failures in both major parties and uh at some point uh I hope there will be a market correction. We also have a history in our country of of very dark things and and tragic things happening that uh that wake us up in a way that allows us to find our better angels. I mean we we've talked a little bit about the Civil War.

31:07 Uh we've talked about the uh the 60s. I mean, I think you can go back to the Gilded Age and and certainly the Great Depression and and how we found ourselves out of that. Uh this is this is not out of the the realm of of things that happen in our country. And so, yes, there are people who are angry and they're trying to figure out what this means. But we do have an opportunity for all of those people to just say, you know what, I am done with this. I'm I'm I'm tired of it. I I I want something better. and uh and and somebody hopefully more lots of somebody's will stand up and say, "Hey, I I don't like this either. Um maybe you should vote for me."

31:47 Well, I watched you up on that stage that week trying to practice politics in a different way than than than many people are right now. And I want to ask you about some of the things you said in in particularly a speech you gave or comments you gave or remarks you gave uh after the the suspect was found. But I could feel you worrying about whether or not we were still are still going to come apart. And and you started by saying that of all the forms of violence, political violence is distinct. It is different than any other kind of violence. Why?

32:25 Well, I if I could and and I'll encourage your your listeners. Uh as as I was preparing for this, I listened to your last podcast in which you interviewed Ben Shapiro. by the way, amazing. Uh, incredible. I hope everyone listens to it. I think it's the perfect example of how to engage with someone you disagree with and and uh in a way that is respectful of both of you. I I I appreciated that. Thank you for that. But before that, you you talked about political violence and and why it was different. And uh while it was an attack on an individual, it it is broader than that. It it is an attack on all of us.

32:59 It is an attack on our uh our ideals. It is attack on the founding principles of of our country. I've had legislators whose kids have asked them to get out of politics because it's it's too dangerous. That is the biggest red flag. And we we I I can see that's why political violence is is so damning and and so dangerous because it takes us out of the public square and uh it it makes us not want to engage. It makes us fearful of engaging. Um, this was a conversation I had with with President Trump. Uh, he he talked very directly to me about about the assassination attempt on his life. Uh, and and how dangerous the job of president is. And, uh, if someone out there just decided not to run for office because they're fearful for their safety, if someone out there decided uh not to give a speech because they're worried, you know, that they could be attacked. if they are fearful to express an idea then uh then we are

34:04 truly broken and and that's why we have to treat this differently than any other type of of shooting or violence that we see in our country. One thing and and you brought this up a second ago, but I want to go deeper into it. You said that the path to building a better political culture isn't pretending our differences don't matter, but actually embracing our differences with each other. What do you mean by that? What what does it mean to embrace differences with each other when the differences are so profound, right? When they're over, you know, whether people who are living here should be deported, when they're over whether Medicaid should be cut, when they're over what you should be teaching children in schools, when they're when the stakes of them have real consequences for ourselves, for each other, what does it mean to embrace difference?

34:51 This is where it gets so hard because um there there are two things that are important here. We definitely need more kindness in in our public interactions. We definitely need more peacemakers and bridgeuilders. We need more people with compassion and and sympathy towards people who disagree with. We need, you know, we need more people breaking bread with each other and sitting down together and having those type of moments, those kumbaya moments. That is not what I'm talking about now. I'm not talking about kumbaya moments. I'm just trying to get people to stop shooting each other. That's it. Um, and the way we do that, the founders were brilliant in understanding this and they gave us the roadmap to doing it. And again, I I I just can't emphasize this enough that that uh unity is not not thinking the same things. It's actually it's acting together. And the way we act together is through the the constitutional framework

35:43 that has been set up. And the the way we do that is by engaging in an electoral process. It's it's by running for city council and voting for someone in your local city council or your school board. It's uh it's it's it's when somebody's running for the president of the United States, we have a clash of ideas that are very different. Should we shut the border or should we have an open border? These are the battles that we should be having. And uh and then your side either wins or your side loses. And uh if your side wins, then you go about trying to enact all of those things. And if your side loses, then you don't. Um, and you get a chance now to go build a coalition, which is really important.

36:25 And again, this is where I I I just feel like persuasion, we've forgotten the importance of persuasion, so that you can win the next time. And this is the problem. We we believe in just short term. If I could just this one, if I if I could win this election, then all of my wildest dreams will come true and my enemies will go away forever. If we win, if we win this presidential election, then I will never have to deal again. I'm sorry to keep quoting you V, but I'll never have to deal with those damn people ever again. And that's not what the Constitution envisioned. It envisioned that you will always have to deal with those damn people. That this is a lifetime of work. It is not a single um event. And and if I could just as an aside because I think this is really important. One of the big mistakes that we have made over the last 250 years with our country is losing the concept of of federalism so much. One of

37:14 the the brilliant things that they did that was very unique. Um you know there had been um checks and balances in government in other places but but having two sovereigns at the same time was was really important. And and here is why. because they didn't want our national election, our presidential election to be that important. They they really didn't. That's why they gave the the federal government a very distinct uh set of of uh of powers and the rest of that was left to the states. They knew that Texas was going to be very different from New Hampshire or you I guess I guess we're going back a little bit. So maybe I should say Virginia, very different than New York, right?

37:54 They understood that those local differences were important. what we've done by giving the federal government so much power and taking that away from the states, we've upped the stakes of these presidential elections to such a fever pitch that uh that it it feels like life or death and and and in fact those are the very terms that we kind of use in our politics which is so dangerous. But California should be very different than Utah. And it shouldn't be gosh, you know, if Kla Harris wins, then the whole country is going to be like California.

38:23 And that's something that I I I just can't stomach. And we're going to have to go we're going to have to do everything possible. And that leads to some very dark places. And so I I do think getting back to truly understanding the Constitution and how we act within that will help us to disperse with some of the the the truly terrible feelings that we're having for each other and give us a framework for acting together. I think people often move to this federalism point and I don't totally disagree with it and there are many ways in which I think it's even true. But I think the way people experience politics more as much at least as they experience it through policy is they experience it through media and culture. And something just very very different than the way American politics worked at the founding or the way it worked in 1927 or the way it worked in 1977 is that our media has nationalized. Our

39:16 local media has weakened terribly. So you know a lot less about what is happening right around you, a lot more about what is happening elsewhere. We have national cable news. We have national social and algorithmic media. You know, something that I notice a lot of on the right, not only on the right, but I I do see this on a lot a lot on the right is the grabbing of something from wherever in the country, this thing happening in this random school district somewhere and then all of a sudden it's like a national cause celeb, a national story, a national it's like you don't have that separation anymore. You know, if you lived in New York at the time of the founding, you didn't know that much about what was happening in rural Virginia. But now you can live in rural Virginia and know a lot about what is happening anywhere in New York, right?

40:01 Zoran Mdani is a national story in a way that is unusual in part because so much media is concentrated here. And and that feels like a big piece of this to me that that we're we're all kind of like locked in this box where our local politics for a lot of people is has dissolved into something they barely even know anything about, right? How many people can name their state senator, their assemblyman if they, you know, their their city council member? And yet so many people can tell you what is happening in a school district they now hate or what is going what they think about how crime is policed in San Francisco. and and these are local issues, but I don't think we've seen we live in a world right now where where local issues calm the debate. Instead, it's like people hunt for the local story that will show us the deepest difference from each other. Then they blow that up. And in part because there

40:53 is nothing to do about it nationally, it creates this like incredible like cultural pressure in our politics. like the only way to win is to like vanquish the other side because otherwise they're just going to be there doing what they're doing and eventually it's going to seep into you and your children. I couldn't agree more. When I when I graduated from uh from Utah State University in 1998, the uh if you took political science 101, which I did, the the first thing you learn in there is that all politics is local. And so if the president of the United States was coming to visit your state, he would learn some some uh some issues, some local issues. There's a, you know, there's a a water issue or uh there an infrastructure issue, all subsidies in Iowa.

41:41 There you go. That's that's the perfect example, right? And uh uh and so so he would show up and he would talk about these local issues and you'd be like, "Oh, that guy gets me, right? That's that's I like that guy. he understands our issues when it's, you know, it's it's a couple staffers who are briefing him on the the flight over. That that has completely changed. I I now believe that the uh that the the the ethos of politics is that all politics is national. So, the exact opposite happens, right? You show up to a local schoolboard meeting or a local city council meeting and they're talking about something that's happening in New York or a school district in Virginia.

42:12 You're you are absolutely right that that is part of it. I I um there there are two things that I think are are the focal point of this and you you hit on the first one that I think is very damaging. Uh it was the uh the rise of cable news uh first and foremost and the the the need for content and the understanding by cable news working with uh with with psychologists and psychiatrists of the uh of the outrage effect and the addiction that happens through dopamine releases for outrage which is a real thing. And and so then you you started to get not just cable news that was covering what was happening in the country, but you would get to fill in the gaps when nothing was happening. You would get two people screaming at each other and that's very addicting. Um and and then social media takes that and puts it on on steroids.

42:54 There's no question. The algorithms drive us. Uh if if I'm fed outrage, especially if I can see the worst of the other side. People always say that you you get locked in this uh this cocoon, right? You only see your side of the story, which is true. But but it's not just you're hearing people telling you what you want to hear about you. It's that they're they're cherrypicking the worst of the other side so that you can get outraged and justify your feelings about that. And that is happening. It it's well documented. But there's something else that I think is important. And uh we we we have to go back to the uh to to the early 2000s uh when uh when Professor Putnham at Harvard produces a book uh writes a book called Bowling Alone. And this this idea of loneliness is I I believe is is at the core of all of our our greatest problems in this country right now. If you look uh through history, there is

43:44 less of what we would call community. One of my favorite things to do when I'm in a crowd is to ask how many of you belong to the Rotary Club and uh you know 50 years ago or something like that, you know, a Lions Club, whatever volunteer organization, an Elks Lodge, something like that, um almost every hand would have gone up. Um and now almost no hands go up. Um, true. Although there may be a little bit of a reawakening happening, but same thing with religious affiliation. Do you go to church on Sunday? Um, do you have real people in your life outside of the virtual world where you can have dinner and have conversations and and get to know each other better? And that loneliness epidemic now we're we're trying if I don't have any real friends, uh, I if I don't have any real friends in my town, at least I can hate the same people together on Facebook, right? Um, that's that's what that's where it

44:31 starts. I do just want to say for the record, um, my wife and I are 12 years sober when it comes to cable news. We, uh, we turned it off, uh, 12 years ago. We we had a a Fox News addiction, uh, in our family, and, uh, we've been happier, uh, healthier. Our marriage is better, our relationship with our our children are better. Um, all all of that. And, and now, sadly, social media has taken up even even more of that. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at UCLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch SuperMobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with

45:20 compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by ULO speed test intelligence data 1 2025. One of the things I always think when I I hear this argument about loneliness is I don't think we're online because we're lonely. I think we're lonely because we're online. And and the loneliness is partially a product there. Um sometimes you're lonely being online with people you know, right? The the sort of canonical kids texting their friends instead of hanging out in in person.

45:47 But I also think that even people not on not lonely online uh that there is something really disastrous about the politics it produces. And so the the perspective we're getting on the other on other people right now in this moment of of of extreme um emotion is so dangerous. Henry Farrell, the political scientist, uh he has this great piece about this where he talks about that one thing that politicians like you yourself are always doing is trying to get a sense of the public. I mean, what do you really have? How many people can you talk to in a day? Not that many. So, I guess there are polls, but that tells you one kind of thing. And it's a very very coarse snapshot and then people whether they know it or not, they go looking for some other kind of shortcut, some other kind of way of conceptualizing the public.

46:39 And for a while, the the the news did it one way, right? How is the news responding to things? Then cable news and if you're on the right, Fox News became the right. If you're on the Democratic Party, MSNBC became the the voice of the Democratic Party. I have many of the same criticisms, I'm sure, of cable news that that you do. Um, and I don't watch much of it myself. Uh, but seeing how cable news has been treating the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's death and seeing what it is like when I log on and try to check the temperature on X on Blue Sky, you know, on on other platforms, it's night and day.

47:16 And it it is something about the algorithms that what they want in this hungry, heedless, dumb fashion is just something that makes you emotional. They don't care how it grabs you, just that it grabs you. And so we're all acting with this sense of a malformed public, right? we have this idea of who the other side is particularly in our heads and it's not who they are. Something that I think is interesting about about your work going before this is I think a lot of us have just treated this as an inevitability that I think we think the public square has become degraded. I think we think what social media is doing, not just politically, but in many cases, we think the way young men are getting addicted to porn, we think it's all bad, but what are you going to do, right? Free market.

48:08 And that's not really been your approach, right? I think something that's interesting in your politics and your policy is a sense that we've sort of abdicated our responsibility to choose and shape. I mean, we shape markets, but we don't really shape online life. Um, and I I get the sense it's actually a pretty big place you diverge with a lot of other people where where you think we we should and and need to, particularly for children. Can I get you to to talk a bit about not just what you've done, but actually the theory of it?

48:41 Yeah, look, I'm a tech optimist. I I I have been. I I'm a huge believer. I come from the uh from the telecom world. I uh I I you can find I I was giving speeches uh many years ago, 12 years ago, 13 years ago, whenever it was on the Arab Spring and how social media was going to bring us all together and allow us to see past cultural divisions and solve all of our greatest problems and and here we are. So, we we passed uh some of the most comprehensive social media legislation in the country a couple years ago here in Utah. And we've passed several bills since then that I I think are are really important to protecting our young people. But but it is more than that and it is bigger than that and it is philosophical and it is deeper than that. And I I think we've we've made a huge mistake. I think our response to technology and specifically to social media and what it's done to our young people has been abhorrent. uh

49:33 are you know I know we both know Jonathan height uh who's who's written the kind of the pre-minent book the anxious generation I was talking to Jonathan well before anxious generation came out when I saw some of his uh initial work he had he had uh he was in front of Congress kind of sharing some of that which led to the passage of those bills here in Utah but but it is it is deeper than that it's it's a decision we've made to allow these companies uh to hijack our kids in ways we would never allow in in any other way. We do we do not allow historically contractual relationships between uh between corporations and and miners uh for their data. The algorithm runs on us. It is it is our agency. I'm I I believe there there's a great book called our our biggest fight by uh by Frank McCort that I would recommend where they make a really interesting argument that they're taking our agency from us and that uh that our identity um

50:30 really our our personal freedom is bound up in that and we have to take that back from them. the social graphs that they use, which are us, that know us better than we know ourselves, that that allow us, as as you so eloquently stated and and better than than I could, uh to to understand what makes us emotional and what keeps our eyeballs on there, so that when a a kid is somehow even if they don't want to, they're on TikTok at 3:00 a.m. just going from, you know, from from video to video and and they've they've given up their free will. And that is unbelievably dangerous. When tobacco companies did that addicted us, we figured out a way out of that. When opioid companies did that to us, we we're, you know, we're figuring our way out of that. And and I'm I'm just here to say that I believe these tech companies with with trillion dollar market caps combined um are doing the same thing uh the the the same thing

51:20 that tobacco companies did uh the same thing that the opioid companies did. And I think we have a moral responsibility uh to uh to stand up to hold them accountable and uh and to take back our our free will. You went on in that that speech to to say something I I I quoted in in the piece I the episode I released um few days ago now, which is that it we don't know what kind of turning point this will be for the country. It could be one towards something better. It could be one towards something worse. It could not be one at all. but that we sort of can each choose our our own reaction that that we at least have agency over ourselves and how we respond to politics next. What are you hoping people do?

52:03 Well, I hope that uh that that people had that that dark feeling in the pit of their stomach like you and I had and I hope they they will remember that and I hope that they will ask themselves am I part of the problem or can I be part of the solution? I hope that people will build community. I I think we make a mistake telling our young people that they need to go out and change the world. Uh I I I've given those speeches at graduations. The the truth is it's very unlikely that that's going to happen. Most people will not have a a huge impact on the world as we understand it. And sadly, I think many of these most evil people that we're talking about, including shooters, um are trying to have some sort of impact on the world. Um what I think we should be telling our young people is that they shouldn't be trying to change the world.

52:48 they should be trying to change their community um their neighborhood and and that's where I really want people to focus. Um the experts again have said that service is one of the most important things that we can do uh for our own mental health but also for building community. Uh I I would encourage them to join a a a faith a congregation believe in something bigger than yourself. Um, and if you're not if you're not interested in faith, um, then find a group, a a positive tribe that that is doing good in this world that will give you a place to, uh, to meet people who are different than you. I think all of those things are how we do this differently. I I hope people will log off of social media and and especially, you know, Discord and and 4chan and and uh the these the deepest and darkest places and uh and find human beings again. You you said it best. It's not that we're we're lonely and seeking

53:40 out social media. It's that social media is making us more lonely. And uh I I need people to uh to get out of that and get back in the real world. The virtual world is not real life. And uh and we need the real world. I will just say that AI is going to make this a thousand times worse. Um and and hopefully we have our eyes wide open as we head into this uh this new whatever this next thing is. Absolutely we don't. But do you have views on what would deescalate our politics beyond individual action? We we talked a little bit about federalism, but but I think I'm thinking of something that's more about our politics, about the politicians, about your sense that you described a few minutes ago that there are a lot of people who don't want politics to feel this way. There is an unmet market for something different.

54:21 And yet we are getting a lot of this whatever you however you may define this and it feels like it's been getting worse, not better. Politics is structural. It's shaped by primaries, by money, by all kinds of things. You're a professional uh practitioner of the arts. What would make for a better politics than what we have? So, there there is a lot of research about this and and again, I would point to Stanford who has run some pretty interesting experiments um with what they call interventions and uh there there are several of them. Uh I unwittingly a professor at the University of Utah sent a video that I filmed with uh with my my Democratic opponent in 2020 uh when we were trying to deescalate coming out of uh that that that terrible summer uh George Floyd and and the pandemic and everything else.

55:12 And and what they found was that one of the things that that can deescalate and uh is especially interestingly enough people's thoughts uh towards political violence were having politicians uh on stage together or on camera together talking about how they disagreed without hating each other. Uh and and so that's that that is powerful. They they found that there was a measurable uh drop in in that polarization again and and thoughts of violence towards the the other side when you got when you were able to get political elites as they called them. And and that's that's a a term of art for them. Political elites are people of of high political uh office in a room together talking like like human beings. And so that that's something we've encouraged. We filmed lots of videos together. I I've encouraged my fellow governors.

55:58 Governors are a great way to do that. But but I would also caution that no one person, no governor, no president is going to be able to get us out of this. It really is those individual decisions that you focused on earlier. And always our final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience? Well, um I I've I've probably already mentioned a a couple of them. I I I'll go ahead and just mention our biggest fight uh by by Frank McCort since I I already mentioned it. Um we passed some legislation around that this year in Utah. By the way, it's kind of like the the 96 Telecom Act, what we passed for social media companies. It would uh it would allow you to take your data, make it your data portable, and take it to other companies, which we think will increase uh competition, but also uh also allow you to have your your data deleted from these companies, which is important. The second one I would I

56:44 would urge is uh Yuvallin. Since I I already uh I already mentioned him, I I'm going to cheat and and do two for one here. He's written two books that I think are are the most important books. Um the first one was called A Time to Build. Uh and uh and that it's it's really a rehash of almost everything we've talked about today. And then American Covenant was his latest one, which is kind of the answer to A Time to Build. American Covenant is about the Constitution and uh and how it can solve this this polarization that we're in right now. Um the last one I I will mention is is one by uh by by Jeffrey Rosen and uh it's about the uh the Declaration of Independence is called the Pursuit of Happiness. as we're celebrating 250 years. Um that phrase the the the the uh that that phrase in the declaration. So life we we all understand what life is. Liberty that's that's freedom. But the pursuit of

57:32 happiness we misunderstand. The pursuit of happiness was a term that actually dates back to the stoics back to Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius and and and and the Stoics they understood the founders understood the pursuit of happiness was not the pursuit of pleasure. It's the pursuit of virtue of uh of personal enrichment and uh and of taking care of the people around us and getting back to those virtues I think is critical for for our country. It's it's it's the responsibility piece. You have freedom on one side and responsibility on the other piece. We've forgotten the responsibility piece to be better people that will lead us to uh to human flourishing. And I think that's something our our our country needs right now.

58:09 Governor Spencer Cox, thank you very much. Thank you, Ezra. Hey, hey hey.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Spencer Cox Wants to Pull Our Politics Back From the Brink | The Ezra Klein Show"?

In order: 0:00 Antifa, Carnegie Foundation, civil war, National Governors Association; 5:00 White House, Marco Rubio, Telecommunications providers; 10:00 civil war, Minnesota House, Why We're Polarized; 15:00 Jodie Foster; 20:00 civil war; 25:00 Democratic Party, Joy Reid, Michelle Obama, Sheila Jackson Lee; 30:00 civil war, Gilded Age, Great Depression, More in Common; 35:00 Federalism, New York, New York, Virginia, New Hampshire; 40:00 Bowling Alone, Elks Lodge, Harvard, Lions Club; 45:00 Blue Sky, Democratic Party, SuperMobile, T-Mobile; 50:00 Discord, Federalism, Frank McCort, Our Biggest Fight; 55:00 The Pursuit of Happiness, A Time to Build, American Covenant, Declaration of Independence.

What is mentioned in this The Ezra Klein Show episode?

57 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including civil war, Spencer Cox, Federalism, Virginia, New York, New York, New Hampshire. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Spencer Cox Wants to Pull Our Politics Back From the Brink | The Ezra Klein Show"?

The episode runs 58 min; the transcript is about 11,351 words in 75 timestamped sections.

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About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated November 18, 2025.