Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes and the Right’s ‘Groyper’ Problem | The Ezra Klein Show

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Israel, Nick Fuentes, Clarence David, Discord
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Alt-right, Israel, Nick Fuentes, Charlottesville
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Israel, J.D. Vance, Arch of Titus, Christian nationalism
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Israel, Identity politics, Ethnostate, Jerusalem
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Israel, Clarence David, Ethnostate, Heritage Foundation
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Israel, Heritage Foundation, Dispensationalism, Evangelical Christianity
7. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Pat Buchanan, Israel, Clarence David, J.D. Vance
8. 1:10:00 – 1:20:00: Death of the West, J.D. Vance, Israel, Laura Loomer
9. 1:20:00 – 1:27:02: Nick Fuentes, David Austin Walsh, Furious Minds, J.D. Vance

Notable quotes from "Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes and the Right’s ‘Groyper’ Problem | The Ezra Klein Show"

• If by the stroke of good fortune or just being a normal person, you had not heard of Nick Fuentes until this month chances are you've heard of him now.

  about Nick Fuentes · at 0:00

• About, the, problem, of, Israel,, about, the problem of American Jews and whether or not they fit in this country or their loyalties are elsewhere. If you're China first, you should live in China. If.

  about Israel · at 0:45

• The Clock Broke, which is about the politics of the 1990s and Pep Buchanan and David Duke and how they prefigured Trump. But he's somebody who has been tracking these ideas and…

  about Clarence David · at 2:24

• For some reason in 20165 there was a lot of talk about the alt-right a term that's not used very much anymore but these people you know who had previously been on the fringes…

  about Alt-right · at 12:07

• He has deep ties to people in the administration. helped, get, JD, Vance, named, vice president.

  about J.D. Vance · at 18:59

• Being hateful. I don't think that's me being collectivist. I think that's understanding that identity politics whether you love it or hate it, whatever you feel about it, it's…

  about Identity politics · at 30:12

• On, the, right,, it's, pushing, towards ethnostate politics right?, that, the, the, the, fundamental argument and a way in which Israel's tried modern Israel's tried to create new coalitions is to say, Hey, we're.

  about Ethnostate · at 35:46

• Has unnerved me most in the last few weeks was a tweet from Kevin Roberts the head of the Heritage Foundation and the architect of Project 2025.

  about Heritage Foundation · at 49:22

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Nick Fuentes — Person · 10 mentions · first at 0:04
• J.D. Vance — Person · 9 mentions · first at 19:04
• Pat Buchanan — Person · 7 mentions · first at 1:18
  What we are watching is a very old strain of the right vying for control of its future. This right goes back to Pat Buchanan. It goes back to Charles Lindberg. The idea that…
• Clarence David — Person · 3 mentions · first at 2:28
• Kanye West — Person · 2 mentions · first at 17:57
  At, Mara, Lago,, I, believe where, Donald, Trump, is, dining, with, Kanye West, noted anti-semite and, Kanye, brings, Nick, Fuentes.
• Kevin Roberts — Person · 2 mentions · first at 49:24
  The Jews. I think one of the things that has unnerved me most in the last few weeks was a tweet from Kevin Roberts the head of the Heritage Foundation and the architect of Project 2025.
• Richard Spencer — Person · 1 mention · first at 12:40
  Have, these people crawling out, of, the, wood woodwork., You, have Richard Spencer. you have the Charlottesville riots and then there is kind of a backlash and those people seem to sort of get pushed out. There's not that much.
• Don Black — Person · 1 mention · first at 21:24
  Populist into a right-wing populist. And I got a remarkable quote from someone who was the child of Don Black, a Ku Klux Clan leader and a and a big figure in the white nationalist movement. the person that got the cold front, just.
• Paul "Dizzy Hips" Blair — Person · 1 mention · first at 50:16
  Only two people, there are a lot of people you might choose. Like the CEO of Only Fans is named Kylie Blair.
• Henry Kissinger — Person · 1 mention · first at 50:59
  He was opposing some US foreign policy thing that had some consensus behind it, he would mention Kissinger he would mention Richard Pearl, he would mention those guys. Would he…
• William F. Buckley — Person · 1 mention · first at 56:24
  Yeah., and, are, standing, up, in, meetings saying, the right, you know Bill Buckley always knew that you had to, eject, the, anti-semits, on, the right., I see you rolling…
• Mark Levin — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:02:56
  Mark, Leavin,, you, just, nothing, but, hot air. Mark Levin, instead of running your mouth, what are you doing in New York City? I tell you what we're doing. We're going to denaturalize Mandami.
• Ted Cruz — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:05:34
  And, there, is, still, an, old, line Republican party to some degree. Ted Cruz have been coming out.
• Lindsey Graham — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:05:55
• Laura Loomer — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:17:53
  Don't think it's specifically the anti-semitism of that too but the whole gestalt of craziness like Laura Loomer and Candace Owens and I mean there's just so much as they try…
• David Austin Walsh — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:25:51
  One is Taking America Back by David Austin Walsh, which is a kind of history of the rights half-hearted, let's say, attempts to police anti-semitism.
• Laura K. Field — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:26:04
  One is Furious Minds. it's a new book by Laura K. field which is about MAGA intellectuals the new right and how that how they justify explain rationalize things that are going on gave arguments for it and the third.
• Alexander Haig — Person · 1 mention
• Byron Donalds — Person · 1 mention
• Charles Lindbergh — Person · 1 mention
• Jean Kirkpatrick — Person · 1 mention
• Jean-Paul Sartre — Person · 1 mention
• Joseph Sobran — Person · 1 mention
• Leo Lowenthal — Person · 1 mention
• Leonid Radvinsky — Person · 1 mention
• Norbert Guterman — Person · 1 mention
• Richard Perle — Person · 1 mention
• Rod Dreher — Person · 1 mention
• Ronna McDaniel — Person · 1 mention
• Solomon Friedman — Person · 1 mention
• Yoram Hazony — Person · 1 mention
• Zohran Mamdani — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Death of the West — Book · 2 mentions · first at 1:10:21
  100% of it logic you, know., So, there's, this, book, Buchanan wrote years ago called the death of the west.
• When the Clock Broke — Book · 1 mention · first at 2:22
  A popular political theorist and historian. He writes the great Substack Unpopular Front. He wrote the book When the Clock Broke, which is about the politics of the 1990s and…
• Taking America Back — Book · 1 mention · first at 1:25:51
  One is Taking America Back by David Austin Walsh, which is a kind of history of the rights half-hearted, let's say, attempts to police anti-semitism.
• Furious Minds — Book · 1 mention · first at 1:26:02
  One is Furious Minds. it's a new book by Laura K. field which is about MAGA intellectuals the new right and how that how they justify explain rationalize things that are going on.
• Prophets of Deceit: A Study of the Techniques of the American Agitator — Book · 1 mention
• Protocols of the Elders of Zion — Book · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

• Heritage Foundation — Company · 5 mentions · first at 49:27
• The Nation — Company · 2 mentions · first at 16:34
  New York Times is saying or what the New York are saying or even, you know left-wing outlets like The Nation or something like that. They get Nick Fuentes, they get Candace…
• The New Republic — Company · 1 mention · first at 5:32
  Story of how I became I learned what gropers are. I was writing a piece for the New Republic about 5 years ago about the right. And I was learning about what were young people…
• Discord — Company · 1 mention · first at 8:07
  Grier content every day in group chats on their social media timelines in discord chats etc. Cory Burism totally suffuses the cultural environment of the right. And this point…
• The New York Times Magazine — Company · 1 mention · first at 16:26
  And the commentary and opinion on that they get is not, what the New York Times is saying or what the New York are saying or even, you know left-wing outlets like The Nation or something like that. They get Nick.
• Swanson — Company · 1 mention · first at 27:16
  This kind of comes from this preppy background. Father was an ambassador. stepmother's you know Swanson and you know sees an America that's not the way he wants it to be that's…
• Instagram — Company · 1 mention · first at 47:25
  With, Only, Fans., It's, it's, like having a Tik Tok. It's like here's my link tree. Here's my Instagram account.
• Goldman Sachs — Company · 1 mention · first at 50:50
  This. The what they used to say about Papyan is he always talks about Goldman Sachs but not Morgan Stanley.
• Morgan Stanley — Company · 1 mention · first at 50:50
  This. The what they used to say about Papyan is he always talks about Goldman Sachs but not Morgan Stanley.
• National Review — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:07:16
  Represented the ideological conservatives like the Buckley conservatives, the National Review crowd within the Nixon administration. He then went on to be a very important…
• John Birch Society — Company · 1 mention
• National Conservatism Conference (NatCon) — Company · 1 mention
• Republican Jewish Coalition (RJC) — Company · 1 mention
• TikTok — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• Substack — Product · 1 mention · first at 2:19
  To describe. He's a I think he's become a popular political theorist and historian. He writes the great Substack Unpopular Front. He wrote the book When the Clock Broke, which…
• Unpopular Front — Product · 1 mention · first at 2:22
  A popular political theorist and historian. He writes the great Substack Unpopular Front. He wrote the book When the Clock Broke, which is about the politics of the 1990s and…
• Pepe the Frog — Product · 1 mention · first at 6:10
  Often as their avy or their avatar profile picture this kind of grotesque toad that looked like Pepe the frog. and it's my understanding that this subculture is larger than…
• Project 2025 — Product · 1 mention · first at 49:28
  Weeks was a tweet from Kevin Roberts the head of the Heritage Foundation and the architect of Project 2025.
• Pornhub — Product · 1 mention · first at 50:07
  Is time to arrest, prosecute, and convict the sick perverts behind Only Fans and Pornhub.
• OnlyFans — Product · 1 mention
• Twitter/X — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

• Identity politics — Concept · 4 mentions · first at 30:15
• Ethnostate — Concept · 4 mentions · first at 35:48
• Alt-right — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 12:11
• Romans — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 29:47
  And in particular, the historic animosity between the Jewish people and the Europeans, they hate the Romans because the Romans destroyed the temple.
• Evangelical Christianity — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 54:10
  Right about this Yeah., is, for, some, time, there's, been, a fairly close embrace between evangelical Christianity and Israel and that has in some ways solved this coalitional…
• Dispensationalism — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 54:59
  Evangelicals to Israel is a particular current in evangelical Christianity dispensationalism.
• Christian nationalism — Concept · 1 mention · first at 20:34
  Direct self-interest. I believe that he calls himself a Christian. I believe he's a represents a Christian nationalism which is non-Zionist or anti-ionist. again there are some…
• Isolationism — Concept · 1 mention · first at 48:56
  Something else is happening in the soil here as opposed to just old school isolationism on American foreign policy.
• Christian Zionism — Concept · 1 mention · first at 55:11
  Deep roots in American past because of Calvinist ideas and American Christian Zionism going back to the founders. and there's something to that. But this emerges really as a mass phenomenon in kind of in the 1970s, right?
• White Nationalism — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:10:47
  Essentially, it's a it's a it's a work of polite white nationalism.
• groyper — Concept · 1 mention
• Holocaust Denial — Concept · 1 mention
• incel — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

• Israel — Place · 28 mentions · first at 0:45
• Charlottesville — Place · 1 mention · first at 12:43
  Out, of, the, wood woodwork., You, have Richard Spencer. you have the Charlottesville riots and then there is kind of a backlash and those people seem to sort of get pushed out. There's not that much talk about all nationalism, the.
• Arch of Titus — Place · 1 mention · first at 29:54
  That's why Eric Weinstein goes to the Arch of Titus and gives it the finger and takes a picture. We don't think like that as Americans and white people. We don't think about the Roman Empire in 2,000 years ago. They do. and so.
• Jerusalem — Place · 1 mention · first at 36:38
  Sure. I mean you have like Yoram Hazonei you know Jewish lives in Jerusalem the founder of Naccon going to the Naccon conference which he started and saying look you have to like the Jews to be a national conservative but there's.
• Gaza — Place · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 If by the stroke of good fortune or just being a normal person, you had not heard of Nick Fuentes until this month chances are you've heard of him now.

0:10 Nick, Fuentes, is, odious, and, despicable. He's, what, I, would, call, a, racist, racist. He's just this troll.

0:15 Nick, Fuentes, has, said, a, long, list, of very vile things big, time., He's, a, a, booger, eating, white supremacist Holocaust denier. The reason everybody's talking about Fuentes is Tucker Carlson, who is arguably at this point the most significant media figure on the American right, hosted Fuentes, a person he has feuded with in the past for a very friendly 2-hour chat.

0:41 I, wanted, to, meet, you., I've, heard, about you. I've, heard, about, you. About, the, problem, of, Israel,, about, the problem of American Jews and whether or not they fit in this country or their loyalties are elsewhere. If you're China first, you should live in China. If you're Mexico first, you should live in Mexico. If you're Israel first, maybe you should go live in Israel. It was the kind of conversation you would not have heard among mainstream figures on the American right in recent decades. What we are watching is a very old strain of the right vying for control of its future. This right goes back to Pat Buchanan. It goes back to Charles Lindberg. The idea that the right should be an ethnationalist coalition which doesn't have room for immigrants, very much does not have room maybe for Jews that is really not comfortable with anyone who's not what they call a heritage American.

1:39 We, do, need, to, be, Christian., We, do, on some level need to be pro-white. Not to the exclusion of everybody else, but recognizing that white people have a special heritage here as Americans. This has been a logic and an ideology that Trump has broken into the mainstream.

1:55 That's, what, we're, all, about., America and, that, is, now, following, itself, to, its full expression. If you buy into this, well, it has a place it goes. And now we are seeing more figures on the American right truly going there. To talk about it, I want to bring on John Gans. Gans is sort of hard to describe. He's a I think he's become a popular political theorist and historian. He writes the great Substack Unpopular Front. He wrote the book When the Clock Broke, which is about the politics of the 1990s and Pep Buchanan and David Duke and how they prefigured Trump. But he's somebody who has been tracking these ideas and the way they are taking hold on the right and where they come from in our country very very closely. So I wanted to hear what he thought now that they were breaking this far out into the open. As always, my email esrahow@ny times.com.

2:52 John, Gans,, welcome, back, to, the, show. Thanks, so, much, for, having, me. So,, let's, say, that, blessedly, you've never heard of who Nick Fuentes is. Maybe you've just heard of him in the last few weeks

3:02 right? Who, is, Nick, Fuentes? Nick, Fuentes,, I, would, say,, is, the, most popular representative of neo-Nazism in America. expand.

3:13 Well,, by, his, own, story,, he, comes, from, uh a middle class background in the suburbs of Chicago. Um he became interested in political activism. Um he was a a a a fervent Trump supporter. Um, and then he ran a foul, according to him, of some gatekeepers in the conservative movement, namely Ben Shapiro, who accused him of anti-semitism when he asked questions about US policy towards Israel. And then over the years, he assembled a following of other disaffected young men. and uh he launched two campaigns that he called the Groper Wars to basically pressure mainstream conservative figures to move rightward on issues to do with race, with LGBTQ issues, and with Israel and the subtext being there, the Jewish question, Jews. So, he's not that subtextoriented compared to some people in this movement. And I mean, he'll talk about an admiration for Adolf Hitler. He doesn't just talk about Israel. He talks

4:30 about the Jews. You, know,, we, have, to, go, a, little, bit further than to say something's up with the Zionists or Israel. It's not Israel. It is the Jews. And once again, remember who is responsible for it all. The Jews. They are responsible for every war in the world. It's not even debatable at this point. Hitler was a pedophile and kind of a pagan. It's like, well, he was also really [ __ ] cool.

4:59 There's, something there are figures here who it feels like they try to keep a mask on.

5:05 Yeah., And, he, doesn't. He, doesn't., And, and, and, I, think, that's, a a key part of his appeal. Um I think that his viewers find that refreshing. They find it titillating. Um and they find it to be reflective of their politics. You mentioned the gropers.

5:22 Yeah. What's, a, grier? Well,, this, let, me, let, me, tell, you, a story of how I became I learned what gropers are. I was writing a piece for the New Republic about 5 years ago about the right. And I was learning about what were young people on the right like what were they thinking about? How do they respond to Trump? And what was the future of conservative media and elites in the Trump era? In the course of this I kind of uh befriended some young right-wing guys and they kept on talking about gropers, gropers, gorers. And I didn't really know what it was. And then I realized that they were kind of a subculture of a of online of trolls and kind of marginal figures and they had often as their avy or their avatar profile picture this this kind of grotesque uh toad that looked like Pepe the frog. Uh, and it's my understanding that this subculture is larger than Nick Fuentes and not necessarily under his

6:20 control or direction, but that he uh speaks for them. He attempts to speak for them and and to unite them into a sort of political force.

6:29 But, what, do, the, the, Groers, believe?, I mean, this is a very memeheavy online trollish subculture that is endlessly dancing on the edge of, "Oh aren't we just joking?" Yeah.

6:44 And, so, pinning, it, down, can, be, a, little bit like trying to pin smoke right?

6:49 Because, you, focus, in, on, a, a, view,, a meme. It's like, oh, you have no sense of humor.

6:53 Yeah. But, it's, a, classic., First, you're, making jokes about the gas chambers, then you're thinking about sending your enemies to them.

7:01 Yeah., I, think, it's, it's, a, little difficult to for people to understand because we're accustomed to thinking of you know politics uh coming from ideas coming from intellectuals elites media figures that that disseminary ideas and this kind of goes in the other direction. It bubbles up from message boards. It bubbles up from memes uh jokes ironic playfulness. Um, but basically the the the the text not the subtext of all of them, is kind of a a constant barrage of propaganda that's anti-Semitic, racist misogynistic, homophobic, you name it.

7:35 And also a lot of content that is conspiratorial, obviously, that that that sees shadowy actors running the government and is also uh deeply dissatisfied with the state of America and the prospects it has for people like them. So you write this piece on actually written a couple pieces on the gorification of the Republican party and you wrote quote

7:56 here's, the, thing, to, understand, every single person under say the age of 40 on the right

8:02 is, exposed, to, extremely, high, levels, of grier content every day in group chats on their social media timelines in discord chats etc. Cory Burism totally suffuses the cultural environment of the right. And this point about the people under the age of 40, this idea that there is a pretty big difference in what the 20somes on the right are like and what the, you know, the 50somes are like. I hear that from the right all the time.

8:27 Yeah. So, for, people, who, do, not, have, texture, of that cultural environment, what are you describing? What are they seeing? What does that cultural environment look and feel like? Well, I mean, just recently there were a couple of leaks about and political reported one of them about group chats and and basically, yeah it's a it's an environment where there's a lot of sharing of of memes and and jokes and repetition of of memes and uh lots of uh joking about the Holocaust joking about Hitler, joking about, you know, uh blacks and and and you know, uh making jokes about slavery and it's just a kind of anarchctic indulgence of a very sadistic id that usually involves you know um the humiliation of minorities or women.

9:16 So, a, lot, of, the, energy, of, this, and, a, lot of the, way, it, would, get, defended

9:20 is, that, the, right, in, the, you, know, late 2010s early 2020s its big enemy was the woke mob cancel culture the thought police gatekeepers. Yeah. And you would hear this described um as joking but a provocation about that. It is showing that you can say what the cultural enforcers don't want you to say. Um Richard Dania the sort of dissident right figure and intellectual describes it as like the based ritual where people on the magarite get together and keep upping the ante to show that they are not part of the establishment. part of this um counterrevolutionary uh force.

10:03 How, do, you, think, about, the, interplay between whatever that was? Because I take it as there there was a sort of culture that emerged in response to sensoriousness and then the movement into actual belief. Well, yeah. I think that that was a way that people could justify to themselves what they were seeing on an everyday level. And some people could say to themselves and to others that basically they were participating in a cultural revolt against this sensorious this sensorious uh state of affairs that um and that was their interest which was to tear down those norms and to open a space of freedom. Freedom to do what is the question. Is it just to you know say and do racist things? I don't know. Um so I think it it created a structure in which you know those ideas spread rapidly though I even to call them ideas is wrong. These these memes really uh spread rapidly and made it so people who

11:02 may have been uncomfortable with it or may have found it uh at variance with their with the way they were raised uh to kind of look the other way and say you know we are in a sense playing around. And the first thing that does it seems to me, is you're breaking down an immune system that people have.

11:20 Yeah. And, and, you, can't, extricate, this,, in, my view, from Trump. No. If, you, have, any, hint, left, of, that attachment to old norms and mores and courtesies.

11:34 Yeah. Well,, then, you, can't, be, a, true, trumpist because he doesn't attach to any of that. Yeah.

11:39 And, so, you, begin, like, demonstrating, a cultural affinity to that kind of politics of provocation and politics of no rules.

11:48 Once, you've, done, that,, then, you, actually don't have that immune system anymore. You're breaking down the immune system that was supposed to protect against people like Donald Trump himself. Absolutely. I think your point about Trump being the the originator of this is is is is important. um when Trump appears and people seem to forget this for some reason in 20165 uh there was a lot of talk about the alt-right a term that's not used very much anymore but these people you know who had previously been on the fringes of American politics greeted the arrival of Trump you know basically with rapture

12:22 yeah, ecstatically ecstatically, and, they, knew, that, this, was their kind of guy they knew that the things that he said would open a space for them if he wasn't precisely a perfect vehicle for their politics it was a real big breakthrough. So, you have, you know, these people crawling out, of, the, wood woodwork., You, have Richard Spencer. Um, you have the the Charlottesville uh riots and then there is kind of a backlash and those people seem to sort of get pushed out. There's not that much talk about all nationalism, the alt-right anymore. Um, and Trump also doesn't really seem to be adopting uh some of their preferences in foreign policy and also not, you know, he makes some very tasteless remarks about Jews but not an ideological anti-semitism that they would want him to do. Um, so this thing kind of goes on the back burner, but it's very much diffusing the culture of young right-wingers who are

13:19 not, you know, they're in the intermediate and lower ranks of the various, you know, bureaucracies, the various staffs of of conservative institutions. Um, and yeah, it never really fully goes away. But then something else happens, which is that as weak as the gatekeepers are in this modern era, there are still people with keys to various gates. And by the end of Trump's first term, Trump is banned on most of the major social media platforms, certainly a lot of these figures are banned on them. And as Trump makes his return and then very specifically when Elon Musk buys Twitter, renames it X, takes off functionally all of the guard rails

14:04 then, the, ability, of, all, this, to, flood into the the conservative nervous system really changes. I want you to watch a clip from Tucker Carlson here that I think is interesting. Unfortunately for the guardians of the old system, the old Republican party people have been allowed to describe it accurately, mostly because Elon Musk opened up X. And you know, when you did that, you get all kinds of filth and nonsense and lies, but you also get some truth, actually quite a bit of truth. And one of the main things that people are telling the truth about that they didn't tell the truth about before is that our foreign policy really doesn't have much to do with what's good for the United States. And once those words have been uttered, they can't be taken back.

14:46 Yeah. So, Carlson, here, is, talking, about, Israel. I would say maybe he's not entirely talking about Israel, but that dynamic he's describing that Musk taking over X is a hinge point seems true to me. Does it track for you?

15:03 Absolutely., Yeah,, I, mean, all, of, these these figures reemerged when they they they had been pushed out and they create a media ecosystem uh that that uh is is suffused with these ideas. So first of all, yeah there is a um you know a lot of people online are looking for information. They're looking to understand an extremely complicated world. they encounter, you know, and they have a sense that perhaps the the establishment views are either misinform misinforming them or are just flatout boring. Um, and then they discover, you know, a narrative about things that's more appealing, uh simplifying, seems persuasive

15:48 exciting, exciting,, and, also, it, cannot, be discounted that in particular is extremely entertaining. Um and they yeah gravitate towards these crackpot ideas. Look, you know, we the United States support of Israel um is a perfectly legitimate topic to dispute and and to to have differing views about and to criticize. And more and more people are coming around to that position. They saw what was happening in Gau and they were deeply upset by it. And they look for commentary and opinion on that. Right. And the commentary and opinion on that that they get is not, you know, what the New York Times is saying or what the New York are saying or even, you know left-wing outlets like The Nation or something like that. They get Nick Fuentes, they get Candace Owens, they get all these kind of crackpot views about it, which take that discussion about real world issues and a mixture of rational discussion and um, you know

16:50 commentary that's actually somewhat sophisticated, I would say, in Fontes's case. and then channel that into propaganda for for anti-semitism. And I think it's important to realize um again back to your question about ideas and the and the diffusion of ideas that you know not everyone is aware that they're being propagandized, right? They are in an information environment where this is what they see and it becomes normal right? And in a sense they get captured. they are in, you know, we people love to talk about the liberal bubble, a liberal elite bubble. There is a an equivalent bubble of of the hard right. So yeah that that brings this kind of deformed version of the public sphere uh that Musk allowed to happen and I think one could argue intentionally. I want to get it a bit of backstory here before we get into the Tucker Carlson Nick Fuentes interview because this is not the first time Nick Fuentes has broken through to

17:50 the mainstream of conservatism. Yeah. There's, a, very, famous, dinner. Yeah. At, Mara, Lago,, I, believe

17:57 where, Donald, Trump, is, dining, with, Kanye West, noted anti-semite and, Kanye, brings, Nick, Fuentes.

18:04 Sure. At, the, time,, Trump, looks, like, the, past of the party. People think, you know he's like on his way out. it's going to be Ronda Santis in 2024 or someone like that.

18:13 Yeah. And, I, think, they, also, buy, the, idea, which Trump says afterwards and I take as even plausible that he doesn't really know who Nick Fund is. I think people buy with Trump that he talks to a lot of people. And one reason I think this is breaking through in the way it is is twofold. You don't have any of that deniability on Carlson's side,

18:35 right?, And, now, everybody, understands that the future of Trumpism is up for grabs. How would you describe the role Tucker Carlson plays on the right now?

18:45 I, I, think, that, he, strives, to, be, a, person of great influence in directing the policy staffing um you know messaging of the Republican party. And to a certain extent he is you know, he has deep ties to to people in the administration. um

19:04 helped, get, JD, Vance, named, vice president. Absolutely., And, uh, you, know, he's, a, he's a figure I would I would say it is more helpful to interpret him as a politician.

19:14 I, agree, with, this. I, think, that, he, basically um understood the direction of the Republican party and remade his entire image and self uh to to fit in with it. and um he has been very smart about that and he realized you know the old institutions ain't what they used to be. Does it really matter that he's on Fox anymore? Apparently not very much, you know. So his his creation of a new persona um really is the story of the transformation of the Republican party.

19:48 So, at, this, point,, how, would, you, describe what Tucker Carlson's politics are? like what what pole of right-wing ideology does he seem to hue to and represent?

20:01 Uh, he, he, represents, a, tradition, that's sometimes called isolationist which views um you know America's entanglement uh with foreign alliances and interventions in in in other countries to not necessarily be in our interest. um not necessarily dovish but uh definitely United States should apply force when it wants when it needs to in its own very direct self-interest. Um I believe that he he calls himself a Christian. I believe he's a represents a Christian nationalism which is non-Zionist or anti-ionist. Um again there are some roots in that and the old right that that goes back for the pre-war. Um he is a very hostile to immigration. Um he seems to have a very strong sense of white ethnic identity and thinks that it believes that you know uh it's a problem for the country if there are too many non-white immigrants.

21:00 Forgive, me, if, I'm, misremembering, this. Didn't you do an interview with like the son of a Ku Klux Clan member?

21:06 Me? Yeah. Oh, my, god., I, I'm, I'm, so, glad, you, brought that up. So, I was working on a piece in 2020 about the conservative movement and Tucker was a big part of it and his his his kind of transformation into a populist into a right-wing populist. And uh I got a remarkable quote from someone who was the child of of Don Black, a Ku Klux Clan leader and a and and a a big figure in the white nationalist movement. Um the person that got the cold front, just to be clear, left the movement and was highly critical of it. But here's what they told me. From the perspective of my family, Tucker's making the same points they've been trying to make their entire lives, but much better. He's found a wider audience and the ideal method of expression for many of the same ideas.

21:53 My father's a little baffled still that it's Tucker Carlson, sometimes someone who he always never liked because he saw him as a shill for the Bush administration and the Iraq war that's bringing white nationalist ideas to the Fox audience. I got this quote. I'm I'm I'm not a very experienced journalist at the time. This is beginning of my career. I got this quote and I brought this to my other sources for the story who were young people on the right and I thought I had something dispositive. I thought I had something that showed uh Tucker Carlson's playing around with things that you really shouldn't. Um that he's he's moving in a very disturbing direction. They shrugged. They didn't care.

22:34 And I I found that to be shocking and disturbing. And I think that anecdote says a lot.

22:40 I, also, think, and, I, think, this, is, very important to understanding Tucker and the role he plays

22:45 is, he, understands, something, Trump understands but not everybody does which is the modern right even more than the modern left is driven by attention.

22:54 Yeah. Trump, has, remade, it, around, an attentional economy. Sure. And, there, isn't, somebody, behind, Trump, as good at attention as Trump is. JD Vance certainly isn't. Mhm.

23:06 You, don't, have, to, be, the, president, to, be the leader of MAGA. That it is very plausible to me that you would have a JD Vance nomination, but actually the next leader of MAGA is Tucker Carlson. That I think what Tucker Carlson is trying to be is the authentic voice of MAGA who because he doesn't have to do all the political coalition work

23:29 right?, He, can, be, pure than, someone, like, JD, Vance, who, I, think fundamentally agrees with Carlson at this point.

23:36 Yeah. But, has, to, maintain,, you, know,, or attempt to maintain, you know, viability in Michigan.

23:43 Yeah., Absolutely., Here's, the, thing., Uh yeah, I think Carlson views himself in that role for sure. You know, Tucker Carlson was sort of the median, I would say, not exact conservative Republican to a certain degree. You know, kind of uh towed the party line on most issues. Iraq, um, you know, all this kind of stuff. Uh, American foreign policy. He was on, MSNBC.

24:05 He, was, on, MSNBC., He, was, also, tried, to present himself as a kind of reasonable.

24:08 He, was, like, a, good, time,, you, know, libertarian rich kid. Yeah,, there's, that,, too., And, it's interesting he takes the bow tie off. You know, there there's a degree that there's costume changes here. You know he takes a bow tie off. He he he now has this more folksy look

24:22 uh,, checked, shirts, and, so, on, and, so forth in this cabin, etc., etc., you know, he's he's cultivating an image of himself as down to earth and folksy and not part of the establishment. And it's you know, it's it's hard to take when you realize he is the product of it. Um and then but but there's something important to understand about Tucker Carlson's turn, I think, to anti-semitism in particular, right? I believe that, you know, anti-semitism functions as an epoxy for elites that don't really want social changes that would affect their prominence and in fact want to shore up their prominence and need mass support and need a a target uh and need a story about um economic dispossession, a world that doesn't seem to make sense uh that serves their interests. You see this in a lot of different places. You see it in Russia. You know, the the Tsorist regime kind of invented anti-semitism for this

25:22 purpose. They the protocols of Elders of Zion are created in this regime of that's feeling uh the the pressure of a of a mass population that's becoming dissatisfied with it creates anti-semitism, you know, as a as a way to to to rechan that energy. Um you see this in France uh where you have an aristocracy and a clergy that is kind of pushed into old institutions sees its prominence in the society losing out. It's sort of losing its its world and then it needs to find a mass politics a way to attack its enemies and anti-semitism becomes very useful for that. So anti-semitism always works to create a kind of coalition. There's a street gutter crackpot anti-semitism.

26:16 And then you have what you could call uh more respectable anti-semmites. Let's say um Charles Lindberg, right? A person who was highly respected, respectable person, you know, a great hero to many Americans. um but found the you know was had a had a racial view of the world and found anti-semitic ideas persuasive. Henry Ford.

26:38 Henry, Ford., Um,, so, you, had, these respectable anti-semmites and crackpot anti-semmites and the they're coming together, I would say, is the is the creation of an actual anti-semitic politics, right? And this interview between Fuentes and Carlson is this almost almost textbook. You have the anti-semitism of the gutter fuentes and you have the anti-semitism of a declining aristocracy, right? Tucker is this kind of comes from this preppy background. Father was an ambassador. Uh stepmother's you know Swanson um and you know sees an America that's not the way he wants it to be that's declining that that doesn't look the way he looks like that has norms that he doesn't look you know doesn't share. And you have Fuentes who comes from, you know, he he didn't go to college. He dropped out of college. He comes from a modest background. He he is dripping with resentment to a world that he feels uh

27:42 doesn't have a place for him in self, a, self-described, proud, incel. Yeah., He, and, and, also, very, interesting that he does not try to hide it or pretend that he is not, you know socially maladjusted in some way and that that lends him authenticity and makes people gravitate towards it. So yeah, that is the most perfect in that interview in that moment the most perfect encapsulation of anti-semitic politics declining aristocracy uh held down uh dissatisfied kind of mob bringing them together and you have a kind of coalition itself.

28:13 Let's, get, into, that, interview., I, want, to play a clip for you that almost felt to me like the heart of it. Israel is unlike every other country in the sense that because the Jewish people are in a diaspora all over the world. There are significant numbers of Jews in Europe but also in the United States and because of their unique heritage and story which is that they're a stateless people. They're unassimilable. They're resist assimilation for thousands of years. And I think that's a good thing. And I guess what I'm saying is that if you are a Jewish person in America you're sort of, and again, it's not because they're born, but it's sort of a rational self-interest politically to say I'm a minority. I'm a religious ethnic minority. This is not really my home. My ancestral home is in Israel.

29:07 There's like a natural affinity that Jews have for Israel. And I would say on top of that for the international Jewish community is that they have this international community across borders extremely organized uh that is putting the interests of themselves before the interests of their home country. And there's like there's no other country that has a similar arrangement like that. No other country has a strong identity like that. this religious blood and soil conviction this history of being in the diaspora stateless, wandering, persecuted. Um and in particular, the historic animosity between the Jewish people and the Europeans, they hate the Romans because the Romans destroyed the temple.

29:52 That's why Eric Weinstein goes to the Arch of Titus and gives it the finger and takes a picture. We don't think like that as Americans and white people. We don't think about the Roman Empire in 2,000 years ago. They do. Um, and and so I I guess that's really and and I don't think that's me saying the Jews, the Jews, the Jews. I don't think that's me being hateful. I don't think that's me being collectivist. I think that's understanding that identity politics whether you love it or hate it, whatever you feel about it, it's a reality that we live in a world of Jews and Christians, of whites and blacks, these identities mean something to us and they mean things to each other. and we we can't sort of wish them away. And it feels like white people and Christians are the only ones that do that.

30:35 There's, no, question, about, that., Your last point for sure. One, of, the, reasons, they, do, that, is because they've been taught to hate themselves, of course, since the Second World War.

30:45 All right., That's, what, you, might, call, a rich text. Yeah,, sure., How, do, you, read, it?

30:49 Well,, I, mean,, you, know,, he's, an extremely talented rhetoric and communicator, and he does a few things. He presents um a vocabulary that does not sound shocking to people, that uses words and terminology um that wouldn't frighten people, that talks sounds like a rational discussion of politics, a rational comment on politics. And then weaved into this is all of the material of classic anti-semitism. The Jews are an unassimilable group, self-interested internationally organiz internationally organized very tightly and all talking to each other and kind of working as one mind uh who who don't have their the interest of their of their host you know at heart have their own interests at heart and are animated by a deep hostility to the people that surround them to the to the societies they find themselves a hatred towards Christians towards white people so on so forth that is classic anti anti-semitism, but he

31:52 keeps on saying things like, you know it's and that's a good thing or something like that or it's not really I'm not trying to be hateful, you know he he presents it as if he's having a discussion of politics like any other.

32:06 And, the, the, other, move, in, there, yeah, in, addition, to, the, the, Jews, are, obsessed with the Romans, which I have to say I don't feel very obsessed by the Romans.

32:12 I, kind, of, like, the, Romans. Yeah. But the the other move in there which you see a lot on the right and a lot on the white identity right let's call it

32:24 is, look, the, Jews, are, just, practicing their identity politics don't, we, just, have, to, practice, ours

32:32 and, that, final, move which, is, the, one, where, Tucker, says, well there's no doubt about that we white Europeans the the heritage Americans are taught to hate ourselves there's been no uh rational self-interest since World War II Right.

32:45 That, is, I, think, a, very, fundamental, move of Trumpism. That's the bridge. Yeah.

32:50 Of, anti-semitism, to, Trumpism., This, MAGA right has spent years saying, "Look, the whole left place identity politics. It's time for white people to stand up for themselves. You're getting all this anti-white racism."

33:01 Yeah. And, here, it, is,, right?, The, the, Jews, are the danger to that. If they're going to practice their politics, you have to practice yours.

33:09 Yeah., Precisely., I, mean, look, at, the, core of the Nazi ideology is a social Darwinistic view of the world divided into almost different species of being who are engaged in an endless war with each other and the Jews are a particularly important part of that worldview. Um they are the most threatening of these beings and trying to launder what is a kind of um biological essentialism about the nature of the political uh through well normal interest group politics of course you know in America we have coalitions we have representatives of different ethnic groups who advocate on each other's behalf well you know you you there's a congressional black caucus you know what's wrong with that you know why why shouldn't white people do that it is it is a different kind of politics. It's not just like oh they should be able to practice their own identity politics and they can kind of uh be integrated

34:08 through the political process and their interests are taken care of and balanced with other people's interests. No, the idea is that this group is impossible to assimilate that and also national unity the the success of the nation its health is impossible to accomplish without their expulsion. This is the view and this is the view that Fuentes continually hammers on.

34:32 There, is, a, lot, here, that's, tricky, to talk about because you're at this endless morass at the intersection of anti-semitism and Israel.

34:40 Sure. One, move, I'm, seeing, from, a, lot, of, people on the right at the moment is why should we be talking about what this, you know Rumble influencer thinks about the Jews when the left is electing Zoran Mani, right? when there's been these years of debate about anti-semitism on the left. I'll say this super clearly. I've met Zoran Mamani voted for Zoran Mdani. I don't think there's anything anti-mitic about him at all. But I think you see in the way he has been treated and then also what is happening on the right a distinction that is worth understanding a structural distinction

35:15 that anti-sionism on the left often pushes towards what I would call liberalism a belief that all people should have equal rights that there should be universalism. there's a different version of it if you're more sort of socialist and Marxist

35:31 right? But, but, the, left, tends, to, push, towards, a universalism and, a, lot, of, the, anger, at, Israel,, which is I think much of it merited, is the way it portrays universalism for the Palestinians living under its control.

35:45 Sure. On, the, right,, it's, pushing, towards ethnostate politics right?, that, the, the, the, fundamental argument and a way in which Israel's tried modern Israel's tried to create new coalitions is to say, "Hey, we're all ethnostates here,"

35:59 right? But, once, you, buy, into, the, ethnostate frame, then, the, fact, that, you, see, Jews, as, an ethnic other

36:08 right, in, your, society, pushes, somewhere, very different. Absolutely., pushes, towards, ideas, of expulsion, pushes towards ideas that they're a fifth column within, that they are leading your country to betray its actual interests in order to, you know that they have dual loyalties.

36:24 But,, but, there, is, this, weird, thing, where it is there's been a rise of like Jewish figures or Jewish aligned figures who want to embrace ethnostate politics. Sure. I mean you have like Yoram Hazonei uh you know Jewish lives in Jerusalem the founder of Naccon going to the Naccon conference which he started and saying look you have to like the Jews to be a national conservative but there's no nobody ever said and I I this is for my Jewish friends. Nobody ever said that to be a good Naton you had to love Israel. Nobody ever said that to be a good natcon you had to love Jews. And so the, one one, point, of, anger, I, have, that, a lot of people on the right who I think have been playing footsie with this for a long time is that the once you embrace the ethnostate concept this is where that leads well I certainly am of that opinion. I think again, you know, let's let's take this from another angle like the way

37:24 you're talking is in terms is is a little highbrow. It's in terms of um you know, intellectuals like Amazon, but let's look at this from the ground up.

37:32 Mhm. You, have, a, conservative, movement, that has embraced, as you said before, an extremely provocative tone, uh a tone of of of open uh bigotry in certain cases right? And basically the deal that the pro-Israel right thought it could make is we can engage in a good deal of racist uh demagogy. We're okay with it especially maybe directed at Muslims Islam. Um but the line that we draw is when it when it happens to to Jews when when it turns into anti-semitism. That is not a consistent position. That is a that is an extremely self-defeating position. So when I talk about gropification, I don't mean to say it's only that people with these extremely specific views about Israel and Jews are taking over the right. It is more that um there's a general atmosphere of moral anarchy of uh acceptance of extremely hateful and and divisive views. So it's not and that creates as as we've discussed um there there's

38:47 there's no there's no immune system there's no barrier to anti-semitism. Well, that, also, goes, to, the, the, energy that MAGA Trumpism that the modern right generates from transgression.

39:00 Yeah. Once, you, have, begun, to, exhaust, the energy of transgression about how you talk about immigrants.

39:05 Yeah. uh you know Trump comes down the escalator says they're sending rapists and murderers over here there's a big outrage but now

39:12 being, much, more, anti-, immigrant, on, the right I mean that's der who cares right

39:16 once, you, have, moved, past, a, bunch, of, the energy on dancing around racism right once you have moved you know on traditional gender roles right

39:25 this, is, the, boss, battle right of, western, speech, taboss right, right that, and, and, you, have, seen, this, didn't again last week or two weeks ago.

39:37 Yeah. You, saw, Elon, Musk, respond, to, somebody laying down a conspiracy that it's Jewish elites pushing immigrant voters

39:45 to, take, over, the, country, by, saying you've really spoken the truth here. You have

39:50 a, lot, of, the podcast, bro, faction, that's, turned, more right like Joe Rogan

39:55 bringing, on, revisionist, historians. Sure. Who,, you, know,, was, Germany, really, the bad guys in World War II? what kind of you know, what what what have we not been told about that?

40:07 And, so, you, you, sort, of, bring, these, two things together that you want to build an ethnostate and you're ideologically opposed to there being anything you can't talk about and you make your money and your attention on these algorithms and it's almost a hydraulic process towards anti-semitism.

40:29 Yeah., The, thing, about, a, kick,, getting excitement from it, you know, Sartra said it's amusing to be an anti-semite. There is something. Look, yeah, Manny for example, who some people say is an anti-semite because of his positions on Israel, um he he's very careful to to say, "I'm not an anti-semite." And to and to express sensitivity to Jewish concerns

40:51 and, go, to, synagogues., And, I, mean,, Mani is a liberal. Okay., Yeah., Exactly., Yeah., But, but, he also does not uh whatever you think is at the heart of his politics, he does not jubate, right? He is not practicing a politics that is based on the enjoyment of the harassment uh and and and getting a rise out of Jews in other words and Fuentes absolutely does. Tucker does to a more subtle extent. Candace Owen does. And that also attracts people because you know people who feel powerless are very attracted to it because you know you you know there's someone you can harass and pick on. And it's part of their strategy to kind of take over the right and their direction is to do this in a way workplace harassment against their Jewish allies to bait them to get them to overreact to unsettle them. The other thing you mentioned is that the taboos are breaking down because you know World War II and the Holocaust is a long time

41:47 ago and, the, generation, that, that, experiences is gone and the politics that were created out of the consensus that it's that it created is disappearing. So some of it is just the passage of time. Again, this is tricky to talk about, but you can't get away here from how much Israel post October 7th, the the war in and the flattening of Gaza

42:15 has, destabilized politics around this everywhere right?, Mhm. And, again,, I, think, the, ways, in, which, it has created tensions on the left have gotten most of the attention for the past couple of years

42:29 but, in, fact,, it's, cracking, open, the right and and you hear it in this Carlson Fuentes interview. You hear it in the questions getting asked of JD Vance.

42:38 Sure. At, at, various, events. Thank, you, for, the, opportunity, to, speak. Um, I'm a Christian man and I'm just uh confused why that there's this notion that we uh might have or uh owe Israel something or that they're our greatest ally. Um, I'm just confused why this idea has come around um considering the fact that not only does their religion not agree with ours but also openly uh supports the prosecution of ours.

43:10 Yeah., So now, that, MAGA, on, some, level, it, has really rooted itself in this semiisolationist very much America first position

43:20 and, this, young, very, online, right, one looks at what has happened in Gazin I think correctly sees it as immoral.

43:28 Yeah. But, two, asks, why, are, we, involved, here, at a time when we're pushing Europe out on its own.

43:36 Sure., Sure. Right., when, we, are aggressively insisting that we have no stable alliances except what is directly in our self-interest at a given moment.

43:48 There, are, ways, many, many many, ways, to, be anti-Israel without being anti-semitic. But but there is also a way in which the I think desire among Jews to say that what Israel is doing never can be connected to anti-semitism breaks apart. And I never quite know how to talk about this except that I feel like we're all living through it right now.

44:13 Yeah., Yeah., I, mean, it's, very, difficult. Well, I mean to put my cards on the table. I'm I'm I'm you know I'm on the left side of the political spectrum and I've been extremely critical of Israel and especially its its conduct in the in the war which I I believe they probably committed a genocide uh and and absolutely extreme war crimes you know but uh what happened also was the creation of an enormous amount of free propaganda for anti-semitic agitators. Um and also a lot of people becoming curious about US foreign policy history.

44:53 You know there is a certain extent to which they're grabbing a lot of people who otherwise would be getting involved in the political process in a really positive way. They say why is American foreign policy like this? Should we be doing this? What's the history behind all this? Like why are these people fighting? Why are they killing each other? They get they have legitimate and interesting questions. But instead, that curiosity, that legitimate curiosity is being picked up by people who have another motivation here. I I don't think that Tucker Carlson uh lost much sleep over the Arabs who died in Iraq

45:31 war., I, have, no,, you, know,, I'm, not defending the war in any way, but I just have zero sympathy for them or their culture. A culture where people just don't use toilet paper or forks. And I don't really believe it when he now uh gets very sentimental about people in Gaza.

45:46 One, of, the, reasons, that, I'm, mad, about Gaza is because the Israeli position is everyone who lives in Gaza is a terrorist because of how they were born including the women and the children. That's not a western view. That's an eastern view. That's a non-Christian. That's totally incompatible with Christianity. So I hate that attitude. It's genocidal.

46:05 I, think, it's, highly, cynical., I, think when Fuentes uh expresses some of the most um you know uh spiteful dismissive attitudes towards human suffering you can imagine on his podcast on his on his show and then he gets very sentimental about this issue.

46:26 This, is, just, a, straightup, genocide. These people are starving. They're literally dying. it would be formally called the famine except that Israel will not let any international personnel inside the strip to assess this to make that declaration

46:42 and, you, know, that, is, to, drag, people, in and to think well you know these people have a heart and they're interested in in the same topic as I'm interested in. I think it's highly cynical. I think it's highly cynical. I think one way you can tell if these views are motivated by impartial analyses of American foreign policy or much more partial views about the Jews is whether or not they tend to coexist with unrelated anti-Jewish conspiracies.

47:10 Right. And, so, in, some, ways, what, I, found, most telling was another clip from the the Carlson Fuentes interview

47:20 with, Only, Fans., It's, like, um, it's, like having a Tik Tok. It's like here's my link tree. Here's my Instagram account. Here's my Facebook account. Here's my YouTube. And here's my only fans. Why would any of this be legal?

47:36 I, think, that, um, well,, there's, like, you indicated maybe there's an intelligence benefit to that.

47:42 Yeah. Maybe, there's, a, political, benefit, to that. I think that Well,, why, wouldn't, you, arrest, the, people who run something like that? They should be if you had a Christian government.

47:51 Or, how, about, just, a, government, that cares about its people? I mean, is Iran a bigger threat or is Only Fans Iran's not turning my daughters to prostitution?

47:58 Should, even, parse, this, clip., You, have, to know that one of the big anti-semitic conspiracies of this era is that Jews in general and maybe the Israeli government in particular is behind a lot of porn. The reason the Jews run the porn industry, I think, is because they're not Christian. And not only are they not Christian, but they're they're against Christianity. And the the people that were the pioneers of porn, they are quoted as saying this is like a middle finger to God.

48:33 Kanye, West, has, talked, about, this., David Duke has talked about this. And and here you have Fontes and Carlson sort of gesturing at this. Maybe there's an intelligence benefit to all this porn we've got out there now. If you had a real Christian government, we wouldn't allow it

48:48 right? And, that's, where, I, think, you, see something else is happening in the soil here as opposed to just old school isolationism on American foreign policy.

48:58 Yeah., I, mean,, it's, every, dissatisfaction with the modern world, every social problem, you relate back to that issue. That's the explanation for it. It simplifies every single social issue and it makes an recognizable enemy responsible for it. That's not new. You know, you have that same thing going back in European anti-semitism, blaming um every single social problem back to the Jews. I think one of the things that has unnerved me most in the last few weeks was a tweet from Kevin Roberts the the head of the Heritage Foundation and and the architect of Project 2025.

49:31 And Roberts got himself in a lot of trouble. We'll talk about it for for immediately coming in and defending Carlson. But around the same time, he had had Jonathan Height, the sort of critic of the internet

49:43 uh,, at, Heritage, to, talk, about, porn, and digital addiction and other things. And he sends out this this tweet.

49:49 He, says,, "Thank, you,, Achon, height,, for reminding everyone at Heritage yesterday that tech tycoons like Leonid Ravinsky and Solomon Freriedman are profiting to the tune of millions by praying on America's young men and women. We are proud to be in this fight with you. It is time to arrest, prosecute, and convict the sick perverts behind Only Fans and Pornhub.

50:08 Right. And, the, key, thing, about, this, tweet, is you could have chosen to single out no one. Or if you're going to single out only two people, there are a lot of people you might choose. Like the CEO of Only Fans is named Kylie Blair.

50:19 But, Roberts,, who, is, at, the, center, of establishment Republican politics, ahead of the Arch Foundation

50:25 he, chooses, these, two, people, with, very Jewish names. It was very hard for me not to read this as Roberts or whoever's writing for him is pointing towards some affinity with this part of right subculture.

50:43 I, think, you're, absolutely, right, to, pick up on that. I mean Papuchanan used to do this. The what they used to say about Papyan is he always talks about uh Goldman Sachs but not Morgan Stanley. And Pat Buchanan always would say when he was opposing some uh US foreign policy thing that had some consensus behind it, he would mention Kissinger he would mention Richard Pearl, he would mention those guys. Would he mention Jean Kurpatre? Would he mention Alexander Hey? No. Some of those names not important. Um so yeah, continually hammering on that uh is a big part of their politics is I mean it's the center of their politics. But it it just struck me and and this is true for Roberts and the way he responds to a lot that's happening where

51:27 you, might, think,, oh,, is, this, just, the attentional side of the right? Is, this, just, the, people, who, are, trying to create big events for the YouTube algorithm?

51:35 And, maybe, it, starts, there, or, for, the, X algorithm. Maybe it begins there. But when you see it jump these lines, I mean you then also the Kevin Roberts response to the Carlson Fuentes interview which I mean maybe it's worth watching that too because, I, think, it, has, some, of these same dynamics. My loyalty as a Christian and as an American is to Christ first and to America always. When it serves the interest of the United States to cooperate with Israel and other allies we should do so with partnerships on security, intelligence, and technology.

52:10 But when it doesn't, conservatives should feel no obligation to reflexively support any foreign government, no matter how loud the pressure becomes from the globalist class or from their mouthpieces in Washington. We will always defend our friends against the slander of bad actors who serve someone else's agenda. That includes Tucker Carlson who remains and as I have said before always will be a close friend of the Heritage Foundation. The venomous coalition attacking him are sewing division. Their attempt to cancel him will fail.

52:42 He's, in, a, bit, of, hot, water, for, that, now. Yeah,, he, is. Yeah., Uh, but, that, was, his, first instinct.

52:48 Yeah., Well,, I, mean, he, Yes., I, think that's his first instinct. He wanted to defend Tucker who I think he views as extremely important part of the of of conservative movement or the right-wing now and and wants to maintain a relationship with him obviously. But yeah, you know, the Heritage Foundation is essentially part of the nervous system of the of of the conservative movement. It's one of the, you know important think tanks that comes up with policy that that supports the work of of of intellectuals and elites in the in the conservative movement. And yeah watching that being and and watching the institution seem to break in that direction was remarkable. Um, and that caused a a firestorm. He has apologized.

53:28 He has walked it back. His friend Yoram Hazone flew in from Israel to to to try to to to sort things over. Yeah, it was a very weird video and and it it struck me as almost coming from sci-fi. I I I was I was so taken back by it. And then he he falls back on what they all fall back on now is, you know, anti- cancel culture, anti-wokeness, which means like, okay, there's no there's no standards anymore. You know, we don't cancel people. But there's another interesting part of this when he says "My loyalty as a Christian and as an American is to Christ first and to America always." Yeah.

54:01 One, of, the, things, that, you, see, when, you begin diving into the fissures on the right about this

54:07 Yeah., is, for, some, time, there's, been, a fairly close embrace between evangelical Christianity and and Israel and that has in some ways solved this coalitional problem on the right

54:20 and, what, you, hear, Fundes, doing, what, you hear uh these you know people coming up and asking JD Vance questions doing what you hear in some ways Tucker doing is really saying that doesn't make any sense

54:33 and, then, the, the, Christian, Zionists, who are Well, Christian Zionists, like what is that? And I can just say for my self

54:43 I, dislike, them, more, than, anybody, you know, because like what? Because it's Christian heresy, and I'm offended by that as a Christian.

54:51 I, mean,, look,, the, the, attachment, of evangelicals to Israel is a particular current in evangelical Christianity dispensationalism. Um, it's one that some argue has very deep roots in American past because of you know, of Calvinist uh ideas and and American Christian Zionism going back to the founders. Um, and there's something to that. But this emerges really um as a as a mass phenomenon um in kind of in the 1970s, right? uh where evangelical Christians are looking what's happening in Israel as kind of signs of the coming apocalypse. Um and that becomes extremely popular. Uh and Israel is befriended is cultivated because they think it is about to bring about you know the rapture and so on and so forth. Now it's true I think among younger Christians, younger evangelical Christians even I'm not sure how much of a hold dispensationalism has anymore. It seems to be something that's of like a

55:55 lot of the things we're discussing of older generations. So I think that that appears to be changing. I agree with you.

56:03 But, but, this, goes, to, what, you're, talking about with Roberts. He did have to walk this back. He's apologized. He said he let Heritage down.

56:10 This, has, led, to, a, bunch, of, interesting reporting on what's been going on inside the Heritage Foundation.

56:14 Yeah. And, one, thing, you, hear, in, that, reporting is that there's a big generational split where older staffers were furious at Roberts.

56:20 Yeah., and, are, standing, up, in, meetings saying, you know, the right, you know Bill Buckley always knew that you had to to, eject, the, anti-semits, on, the right., I see you rolling your eyes. His it's worth saying that Bill Buckley's um

56:34 the, extent, of, his, war, against anti-semitism has been overstated. Let's put it that way.

56:38 Um, but, the, younger, many, of, the, younger Heritage Foundation staffers are standing up and saying, "What did Kevin do wrong here?" Right? If there's not room for what he said, is there not room for for me? And I think this is getting at just this very big thing which is and it's what I sort of understood Roberts is doing.

56:53 Yeah. That, you, have, a, lot, of, people, on, the MAGA right trying to skate to where they think the puck is going.

57:00 Yeah. And, what, they, see, among, their, young, among their staffers, among the people they interact with on social media is that where it's going is around this much more you know, I would call it like white nationalist energy.

57:16 Yeah., I, think, that's, a, good, read, on, this situation. Um, yeah, you know, uh, Rod Dreer, a writer who I consider to be on the on the far right, um, but is horrified by everything that's going on uh, he wrote recently that that a friend of his, um, in the, you know, who has connections to the Republican party and the conservative movement, uh, estimated that some 30 or 40% of of young staffers were gropers. And I would say to that well, the other half are, you know maybe don't go to the last taboo of anti-semitism, but definitely don't have any problem, you know, throwing slurs around and and and and trafficking and nasty ideas about that. Um, that's my own commentary. But yeah, I think that you're absolutely right. But I think that there is a a market generation gap that the younger the younger staff of the conservative movement are much more open to um Fuentes's ideas and they've

58:14 also come up in a situation they've they've been since their introduction to politics they've been suffused. They've been come up in an environment that's filled with this. They don't know a world before it. It's their common sense in a in another way. So yeah, I think that they are they are struggling with the fact that they're probably you know, going to have staffing issues. Um, and they they already are.

58:40 And, Trump, has, not, criticized, when, like Trump can weigh in on things when he feels like it. He called Carlson crazy when Carlson criticized him for the Iran bombing. Trump has notably not weighed in on this. Vance has only said he doesn't like the infighting.

58:53 Well,, I, I, think, well, there, there's, a, lot of reasons for that. I I think that the main reason is look, Trump gets a lot of mileage about seeming out to lunch or or in, his, own, world., The, fact, of the, matter is he's a he's a successful politician.

59:06 He, understands, and, he's, always understood from the beginning that this extreme right is a constituency that he can't really afford to alienate that he has to court. Uh I think as an administration knows that they can't totally distance him. He's never completely disabled.

59:22 So, his, administration, is, full, of, these people. Yes,, that's, true. But, maybe, it, was, not, true, as, true, in, the first term.

59:27 No., And, I, think, they're, very, interested in what this section of the right has to say and they realize, you know, this is part of our coalition. We cannot afford to alienate them and attack them.

59:38 So, there, have, been, conservative, figures pushing back. Sure. Ben Shapiro has particularly I think gone to war and has tried to call this out and really try to play the old at least mythological William Fbuckley role trying to say no we don't do this we don't go to gropers we don't go to Nick Fuentes like there there are lines in our movement

59:59 what, have, you, thought, of, Shapiro's response, the, reaction, to, it a, few, things, first, of, all, the, the, thing to remember about one of the other main figures on the anti-semitic right is Candace Owens who was, you know, birthed within the Shapiro organization. So think about that.

1:00:17 Well,, hired, by, the, Shapiro, organization. Hired, by, the, Shapiro,, cultivated,, turned into a star.

1:00:21 Yes., Part, of, them, trying, to, skate, to where the puck was going right? To, get, a, younger, audience,, to, get, a, a hipper in the sense of conservatives, a hipper audience. And and Mark Levvin at the Republican Jewish Conference says

1:00:35 "What, do, you, mean, we, don't, cancel people? We cancelled David Duke. Donald Trump canceled David Duke. We canled Pap Buchanan. We canled the John Burch Society. We cancelled Joseph Soin. We canled pornography on TV. We cancel stuff all the damn time. Hitler admires Stalin admires, Jew haters, American haters, Churchill haters. You're damn right. We're going to cancel them and deplatform them. I mean, it's too little too late. In my view, the opportunity has passed. You know, most of the people who saw where the Republican party was going and didn't like it and were clearsighted about it, you know, went into the never Trump movement, which was not politically viable, right? It's a it's a group of people who I consider to have kind of preserved their honor, but don't have a mass constituency. The party's not there. these people stayed with MAGA and everything it represented the destruction of all these norms and

1:01:37 institutions that would prevent something like this. Um, and I just am also extremely angry and frustrated with the pro-Israel and neoonservative right for looking the other way when it came to the racist takeover of the right. Zora Mdani perfect example of this. What has happened in the wake of the giant controversies that exploded about Fuentes going on Tucker, the leaks of the chats? You have major figures on the right who are trying to redirect the conversation about uh anti-semitism back to Zoran Mandani. They're trying to make him the hate figure

1:02:21 and, to, can't, we, all, come, together? Yes., And, and, and, so, Ben, Shapiro, says, "When has Tucker really criticized our mom, Donnie?" Right.

1:02:30 The, number, of, times, that, Tucker, Carlson has mentioned Zoran Mandani since October 5th on his show is once and it was in the context of Marjgerie Taylor Green and Tucker Carlson talking about the appeal of Zoran Mandani.

1:02:42 And, then, Steve, Bannon, goes, he, attacks Mark Leavvin. He says these guys aren't really MAGA. And he has a point because they weren't back then. You know, they weren't with Trump from the beginning. And then he attacks M Donnie.

1:02:54 Mark, Leavin,, you, just, nothing, but, hot air. Mark Levin, instead of running your mouth, what are you doing in New York City? I tell you what we're doing. We're going to denaturalize Mandami.

1:03:03 So,, it, directs, this, this this, energy, uh this this this energy of racial hate really um that seeks to expel a racial other against the safer target, right? Um that strategy is not working anymore. that ability to keep the coalition by being like, look, just be as racist as you want. Be as hateful as you want, but it's against it's designated enemies that are okay. You know, people ask a rational question. Well, why are are these people off the table? And then, you know, the answer comes back. It's like, well because of Christianity or because Israel represents Western civilization or some kind of rationalization like that. And the anti-semites say that makes no sense to us. And in a certain sense, yeah, why not? If the world is divided into these racial groups and and this is the way you are and and and we practice a politics that's based on that, why make an exception? I mean, as you say, these guys started as opponents

1:04:03 of Trump. In 2016, Shapiro said Trumpism breeds conspiracism. Conspiracism breeds anti-semitism. Trump is happy to channel support of anti-semites to his own ends. He Okay, so Ben Shapiro not a dumb guy

1:04:17 at, that, time. If, you, go, back, and, you, read, actually, a bunch of what he said back then, uh it's very, very very, preient.

1:04:23 The, other, thing, is, what's, the, superpower they're going to suddenly discover that they're, going to, do, that?, They, couldn't stop Donald Trump. They couldn't stop Donald Trump. They tried. Many of them tried. Ben Shapiro was an opponent of Donald Trump.

1:04:36 Mark, Leavvin, was, an, opponent, of, Donald Trump. So they're going to finally discover some new secret weapon. I don't know where Levin was, but there was clearly an effort from Shabir and others to to make Dantis the future.

1:04:48 Sure., Sure., And, Yeah., So,, I, don't understand where they suddenly think they're they're going to they're going to find the the the weapons or the army that's going to support them in this war.

1:04:57 Well,, this, is, what, I, think, is, is frightening when you look at their situation kind of coldly. Yeah.

1:05:04 Their, kind, of, last, best, hope, is, that they don't believe Trump himself is an anti-semite. Their last hope is Trump himself. And I mean they'll say that but when I appear on the show he was more or less saying that but they're all much more afraid of what's coming next of JD Vance in particular where I think the view many Republicans hold is that Vance is quietly functionally where Carlson is that Vance is ger adjacent let's call it. Yeah, I think that's right.

1:05:31 And, there, is, still, an, old, line Republican party to some degree. You know, Ted Cruz have been coming out.

1:05:36 If, you, sit, there, with, someone, who, says Adolf Hitler was very, very cool and that their mission is to combat and defeat global jewelry and you say nothing then you are a coward and you are complicit in that evil.

1:05:55 Lindsey, Graham. But, I, just, want, to, make, it, really, clear. I'm in the Hitler sucks wing of the Republican party.

1:06:04 What, is, this, Hitler, [ __ ], I, don't, know. Anyway, but, it, is, the, older, Republican, party,

1:06:09 right?, I, think, that, they've,, you, know, they they made a deal with the devil in a certain way and and and and now they're they're they're paying for the consequences. Now, another way to read this, obviously, it's all very scary and these are bad things and the transformation of the Republican party into this stuff is not good. It wasn't great before in my opinion, but now it's really something else. The other thing is it's like this might be a politics that ends up when it's exposed to the public being too weird and too fringe.

1:06:37 It has some mass constituency, uh, it will it do well in a primary, yeah maybe, probably. Will it do well with the rest of the public? I don't know.

1:06:46 Well,, it's, done, well, in, primaries before. I think this actually gets to something important. So your your book um is very much about Pat Buchanan and and earlier strains of this

1:06:55 for, those, who, didn't, grow, up, in, the politics of the 1980s and 1990s or didn't write a bestselling book on it as you did.

1:07:03 Who's, Pat, Buchanan? Papuchan, is, a, major, figure, in, the conservative movement. He was a member of the Nixon administration. He kind of represented the ideological conservatives like the Buckley conservatives, the National Review crowd within the Nixon administration. He then went on to be a very important syndicated colonist columnist, appeared on TV. He was a communications director for some time in um the Reagan administration. Um important loud voice on the right. He ran a few primary campaigns. one in 1992 which my book focuses on um which wounded George HW Bush's candidacy so there was kind of a constituency for his type of politics he is also probably the person who expressed anti-semitic views in public the most notable anti-semite in American politics for a very long time

1:07:57 I, always, think, of, this, clip, of, Trump talking about Buchanan is worth revisiting

1:08:01 how, about, Pat, Buchanan, what, do, you, think of that now he's he seems to be the guy you'd have to battle

1:08:06 well, it's, true, he's, anti, anti-semitic. He's antilack. He obviously has been having a love affair with Adolf Hitler in some form. And I just can't imagine this guy.

1:08:14 Look,, I, don't, want, you, to, hold, back. Give me how you feel now. I mean, you know, these call answers.

1:08:19 I, can't, imagine,, you, know,, that, Pat, is going to be very seriously taken as a candidate.

1:08:24 So,, that's, an, earlier, Trump, incarnation, right? Flirting, with, a, third, party, run, for president.

1:08:29 We, often, talk, about, the, way, Trump, has been very consistent on certain things like trade since the8s, but not on everything. You know, there was a man Pat Buchanan, a good guy, conservative guy. And you know, it's not that we're you know, Pat Buchanan. Look at that. Good. Good guy. Wow. Young people, they know him. Pat Buchanan, right? We know Pat Buchanan. He came in second in the New Hampshire primary. And for 45 years, he made an unbelievable career of it. He was a hot item. He was on every show, every came in.

1:09:00 And, it's, been, interesting, watching, so many of these figures. Nick Fentes being one of them, but not by any means alone. Kevin Harris, all of them

1:09:08 really, rehabilitate, Pat, Buchanan. Sure. I, think, the, Republican, party, used, to pride itself on not going down Buchanan's lane. It went down another lane instead. George HW Bush and then George W. Bush.

1:09:18 But, it, seems, like, now, Buchananism, is winning. That's, the, thesis, of, all, the, work, I've been doing for the past decade in my book. Yes, I think that's true. And actually, it was interesting at the beginning of this presidency. I thought, "Oh man, I got something a little bit wrong. It's Pat Buchanan plus you got to be nice to Israel, right?" So, they're like "Okay, we can be the trade stuff, the immigration stuff that but we're going to keep in place in order to keep the coalition together you know, this reflexive support of Israel." um you know, partly to do with with Jewish Republicans and partly to do with with Christian evangelicals. And then when this explodes, I was like "Oh, well, I guess that that never fully went away and it wasn't totally submerged." And this coalition wasn't that stable.

1:10:08 Well,, also, it, gets, to, this, point, that Buchananism has an internal logic.

1:10:12 Yeah. And, when, you, embrace, it,, it, becomes, hard to embrace 80% of its logic, but not 100% of it logic

1:10:19 you, know., So, there's, this, book, Buchanan wrote years ago called the death of the west.

1:10:23 Yeah. Uh, JD, Vance, said, it, is, the, first political book he ever read. How, would, you, describe, the, death, of, the west thesis and how it relates to modern Republican party politics?

1:10:34 It, basically, describes, a, world, where, the white race is submerged by the invasion of brown peoples and uh that needs to be prevented by any means necessary. Essentially, it's a it's a it's a work of of um polite uh white nationalism.

1:10:52 And, there's, a, tremendous, amount, about fertility rates in it. I mean, it even, in, the, first, Trump, term, reading, it, it was striking to me how much the modern right had fully

1:11:02 Yeah. absorbed, this, book, by, this, guy, who, was, you know, pushed out to the margins or it seemed to be for a long time.

1:11:08 Right. But I mean now I think if you're going to pick a founding text for MAGA, you know, people talk about all kinds of different, you know, weird thinkers, but Death of the West by Buchanan feels to me like a like a pretty fair center of the cannon.

1:11:23 Yeah., I, mean,, look,, critics, of, the, right have often said there was a racial subtext to Western civilization. In the in the in the way Buchanan use it, it's not a subtext. It's it's what Western civilization means. It means white people. It doesn't mean Homer and Dante and Plato and so on so forth or ideas. It means a certain racial stock that makes up Western people. And basically the division on the right right now is uh are Jews part of that western white people? So I I guess one thing that part of this conversation then reflects is how much of this is all the internet and attentional dynamics and as such we are moving into this structurally and there aren't very good political answers to it. I mean, you you've had this line that

1:12:17 one, can, even, say, that, the, internet itself is anti-semitic, which also is a kind of provocative line

1:12:22 but, but, I'm, curious, because, you've, been writing more. You gave the speech at at your Chicago where you're talking about the sort of modern version of fascism as a response to the way the internet has destabilized

1:12:32 the, way, we, communicate, in, the, the, sort of political sphere. How much do you see what we're in as a structural feature of the medium on which politics now primarily certainly political communication primarily takes place? Like what follows from an analysis like that?

1:12:49 Well,, I, mean, the, the, the, the, comment about the internet being structurally anti-semitic very speculative theory of mine that I I cannot defend right now. But um yeah obviously the change in the way people consume media creates the possibility for new communities to form right people who would generally be cranks and uh fringe people with a few audience members find find mass audiences right so there is there's a component of that there's also the the fact that the internet um makes is it's almost like the birth of cities I is the way I talk think about it it's almost like urbanization It creates an enormous amount of what what you might call sanitary problems. Like it creates enormous amount of waste, pollution, and stuff like this. And there we haven't come to a way of being like, okay, well, we're going to disc decide how we we govern this new city. It's very interesting though, you know, like where where anti

1:13:50 like where does do people get into this stuff? You know, you mentioned pornography, right? It comes from this really seedy underbelly of the internet the bulletin boards or message boards, 8 channel, 4chan, etc. like that. It comes from a community that you know consumes porn very edgy porn sometimes illicit porn. It came from the same you know underbelly the sewage of the internet from the gutter. It is, you know, the favored ideology of the very people who you know, sometimes have addictive relationships to those things. Um, and feel disempower entirely disempowered to detach themselves from it. Uh, feel like they have no lives or future. The internet is their only life and future but it also presents itself as a politics that would solve those problems. you know, all of the things that happened because of modernization or the creation of this new of these new structures, we we have the answer to to

1:14:55 um to to to fix them all. Um it's interesting, you know, Fuentes openly says like I'm one of those guys, right? He's like, I'm kind of a loser, an incel, you know, there's no women in my life, etc., etc. But the way he does that and the way he attracts an audience and the way he entertains his audience is when he has um their questions come on. He sadistically attacks them, right?

1:15:23 What, do, you, mean?, What, do, I, think? That's your question. So Byron Donald some like black Republican benchwarmer gets up at the RJC and says, "I love Israel. I support immigration." You say "What do you think about that? What do you think I think about that dipshit?" That's your question. The show is like "We hate immigration. We're against Israel." Hey, so this guy says he likes immigration in Israel. What do you think about that? That's your question. What do I think about that? What do you think I think about that, you [ __ ] idiot?

1:15:52 Because, essentially,, like, that's, at, the root of this. It's about a certain type of powerlessness that comes to express itself in sadism. There is a degree of self-loathing among these people that it can't also be uh discounted. There's a degree to which they have accepted their position as being kind of outside of society as being unrepresented and they just want to burn it all down.

1:16:23 I, think, I, have, this, theory, about Twitter. Yeah. Which, is, that, whichever, political coalition is in control of it at a given moment is going to pay dearly for that.

1:16:33 Yeah., Yeah. So,, I, think, that,, you, know,, the, left sort of had the wheel on Twitter, you know, around 2020 and by 2024, a lot of the positions that got taken for that reason. A lot of the culture that emerged on it ended up proving a profound political loser. And I remember people being terrified on the left when Elon Musk bought it. But what I see is the right is becoming Twitter poisoned, exoisoned.

1:16:56 Yeah. And you know that guy in a basement making fun of his followers claiming to be an incel politics

1:17:06 right? It's, very, I, mean, I've, spent, the, last week like immersed in prep for this and

1:17:14 you, begin, to, think, it's, the, world. Yeah. And, then, you, like, look, up, and, you, like kind of shake your head and you remember it's not.

1:17:20 No., And, most, people, don't, want, this, and have no and the right seems so hooked in to its own attentional drugs at the moment.

1:17:30 Yeah., and, JD, Vance, who, seems, to, want, to be the future of the right is very very very hooked in to its weird subcultures and he has said that himself that I wonder if I mean one thing you hear Shapiro keep trying to say to them it's like, this, is, going to, be, a, loser, and, I don't think it's specifically the anti-semitism of that too but the whole gestalt of craziness like Laura Loomer and Candace Owens and I mean there's just so much as they try to absorb this in and Tucker Carlson and if I were have some optimistic loss on any of this and I don't feel great about it. It's that that's a pretty weak politics particularly after Trump who has a a very particular showman's capability and you know role in American culture.

1:18:18 No, I I think I think your point about about Twitter being a kind of mixed blessing or I think it's it's extremely useful when you're kind of putting together the campaign and the coalition and about to launch an attack

1:18:32 and, when, you're, in, power um you need to have normal democratic tools to understand where the electorates at. and the types of explanations, ideas, memes on Twitter are a different reality and it interprets what's going on in the in the rest of the world in a very distorted way. Right? So, you know, an election happens, there's a negative result for your party. A normal political mind would say, uh, maybe some of our messaging is bad, our policies are bad uh, the electoring issues with us that gets metabolized in Twitter and all kinds of insane conspiracies and so on so forth. it. So it definitely distorts what the notion of the rights public is.

1:19:14 Now, that's very dangerous because they're living in kind of another reality, but it also when they're in a democratic society, yeah, it detaches them from the things that could they could do to alter course. And yeah, I think that it's still true that a lot of the things that we're talking about are as they say, very online and attract a kind of subculture. My only warning about that is like I think that you know a lot of young people grew up online that that's that's not a lot of people are very online. It's not that different from the norm.

1:19:43 But, what, I, would, say, is, that I, think, sometimes, we, can, overstate, how like bad the how badly the young people are are doing politically. Yeah. And and what I mean by this is the 2024 election

1:19:56 scared, the, hell, out, of, Democrats, about what was happening with Gen Z and, rightly, so., Right., Huge, swing towards Trump. And so then when somebody like Nick Fuentes, self-described, you know, incel and brain poisoned ed edge lord comes up and says, I am speaking on behalf of these young men

1:20:12 he, has, a, tendency, to, say,, well,, okay, like I don't understand these young men anymore. Maybe he is

1:20:16 right? And, then, I, look, around,, he, if, you, look at who Trump has lost support among

1:20:21 Yeah. It's, young, people,, right?, He, has cratered among young people. You look at how Zoran Madami did in the election about among young men. Yeah. Like incredibly well

1:20:31 right?, that, the, idea, that, the, center of Gen Z culture is is, Nick, Fuentes, is, also, wrong, and, I think is a weird way. One thing you often see I think is that old people don't understand young people right and so they are a little bit gullible

1:20:47 right about, anyone, arising, with, some, amount, of constituency saying I speak for the young now

1:20:53 and, you, know, young, people, like, people care about the cost of living right they swing around based on that right

1:20:58 it, just, that, there, seems, to, me, to, be something here that that even I, don't, think, the, Republican, party, has the pulse of the young

1:21:08 no it's, that, it, has, the, pulse, of, its, online young. Yeah. And, that, is, a, very, malformed, sense, of even the young public.

1:21:15 Yeah., I, think, there's, a, lot, to, that., I think there's a lot to that. I do think though it must be admitted that this is a party with mass support. Um and it increasingly has tailored a message to try to get people who feel disaffected with the way things are going. So if there are a lot of other shocks um and there isn't some way in which the country gets on a footing where people feel like they can be prosperous where they can have decent lives and these pathologies continue that politics is going to get an additional purchase. I mean,, it's, one, of the, big, dangers, with America's two-party politics

1:21:52 right? If, one, of, the, two, parties, becomes extreme, then it doesn't take that much for the extreme wing to come into power. Right. You can you can take over a party.

1:22:06 Yeah. With, a, fairly, narrow, part, of, that, party being well organized. different candidates split support in the primaries and all of a sudden you have Trump in 2016 or you know maybe JD Vance loses in 2028

1:22:18 but, then, there's, a, big, recession right and, Tucker, Carlson, runs, in, the, 2032

1:22:23 primaries, or, somebody, who's, you, know Tucker pilled or whatever it might be

1:22:28 and, the, issue, you, have, there, is, that, if the Democratic party for one reason or another becomes unacceptable to people then the fact that Republican party is run by groper extremists

1:22:39 you, know,, you, make, a, couple, political moves to the center and and and hide it a little bit during the election, then you're in real trouble.

1:22:44 Yeah. I, mean,, my, sense, of, our, politics, now, is that on the one hand, the Republican party is weakening itself. And on the other hand, the uh you know, the possibility of like 20th century calamity style outcomes just keeps going up.

1:22:57 Yeah,, I, agree, with, you., But,, you, know, like here's the thing about every single election happens and Americans say, uh this proves our theory of the case. The country has fundamentally changed. Uh here are the people who are important. Here are the people who are not important. This party has shown itself to be totally out of touch with the American people. This party is the wave of the future. And then another election happens. That narrative is forgotten or proven to be false very quickly. We don't really know what the electorate looks like until election day. So we're always, kind, of, guessing, and, and and saying, "Oh, well, there's a lot of these kind of people, a lot of this kind of people." We don't know what messages are, going to, be, successful., Things, come out of nowhere. Things disappear.

1:23:41 Coalitions are never permanent. They're very fragile in American politics. They fall apart quickly. As you mentioned the loss of young people, the loss of independents who weren't, you know watching Nick Fuentes, they were pissed about their groceries, you know, they were pissed about, you know not necessarily being able to buy a house. Um, so I don't think Yeah, I'm I'm of two minds of it, too. I I do believe that there is a a weakening of the of the party's mass appeal through its um moving towards the other things. But my only worry about that is like these things have sophisticated techniques of propaganda to get mass support and Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes are exhibiting those things. They are they know what they're doing. Um they know they are not the Nazis of yester year who were skin heads and put swastikas everywhere and scare people. they know how to deliver this message in a way

1:24:50 that's palatable or more palatable. My sense of of things in America is that if a message comes along that is yes, there are problems with the establishment um but we need to make some changes to the way our economy works and I don't particularly hate or want to kill or or harm anybody. that message is going to be a lot more successful with people because I think most Americans are, you know, not uh obsessed with sadistic fantasies of harming each other. So, I don't think it's a it's an inevitability that those politics will take over and and I but I do believe there are conditions under which they become more appealing and and stronger. Um, and it's, you know, a lot of the kinds of social dislocations we're experiencing now. And then always our final question. What are three books you recommend to the audience?

1:25:42 Okay., So,, I, recommend, I'm, going, to recommend two recent books and an old book and they're about this subject. This is not for for reading for for fun. Um, one is Taking America Back by David Austin Walsh, which is a kind of history of uh the rights half-hearted, let's say, attempts to police anti-semitism. One is Furious Minds. Uh, it's a new book by Laura K. field which is about um MAGA intellectuals the new right and how that how they justify explain uh rationalize things that are going on gave arguments for it uh and the third one is a very old book and a little bit forgotten it's called profits of deceit um techniques of the American agitator and it's by Leo Loenthal and Norbert Gutderman and it's a extremely uh astute ute detailed analysis of the techniques of anti-semitic agitation and propaganda especially in the context of the United States.

1:26:44 John, Gans,, thank, you, very, much. Thank, you.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes and the Right’s ‘Groyper’ Problem | The Ezra Klein Show"?

In order: 0:00 Israel, Nick Fuentes, Clarence David, Discord; 10:00 Alt-right, Israel, Nick Fuentes, Charlottesville; 20:00 Israel, J.D. Vance, Arch of Titus, Christian nationalism; 30:00 Israel, Identity politics, Ethnostate, Jerusalem; 40:00 Israel, Clarence David, Ethnostate, Heritage Foundation; 50:00 Israel, Heritage Foundation, Dispensationalism, Evangelical Christianity; 1:00:00 Pat Buchanan, Israel, Clarence David, J.D. Vance; 1:10:00 Death of the West, J.D. Vance, Israel, Laura Loomer; 1:20:00 Nick Fuentes, David Austin Walsh, Furious Minds, J.D. Vance.

What is mentioned in this The Ezra Klein Show episode?

77 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Israel, Nick Fuentes, J.D. Vance, Pat Buchanan, Heritage Foundation, Identity politics. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes and the Right’s ‘Groyper’ Problem | The Ezra Klein Show"?

The episode runs 1 h 27 min; the transcript is about 15,049 words in 252 timestamped sections.

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