Transcript

The Fall of Joan of Arc | EP 4

From The Rest Is History · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 60 min · 10,447 words · 101 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "The Fall of Joan of Arc | EP 4", an episode of The Rest Is History published January 15, 2026 (60 min, about 10,447 words). It mentions 22 people, works and ideas, including Pierre Cauchon, The Execution of Joan of Arc, The Hundred Years' War, Ru, The Retrial of Joan of Arc.

What this episode is about

The examination of Joan of Arc's trial reveals the contentious debate over her claims of divine guidance versus accusations of heresy and treason. Through historical documents, the narrative explores the circumstances surrounding her capture, the motivations behind her persecution, and the tragic events that led to her execution by burning at the stake.

Key takeaways

  • Joan of Arc: a divine messenger or a devil's pawn? History’s finest courtroom drama just got real.
  • Henry VI: a nine-year-old king overshadowed by a teenage girl. Talk about royal inadequacy!
  • Against the backdrop of war, a crown becomes a pawn in a bitter game of perception and politics.
  • The English needed a villain to shadow Charles VII's rise—enter Joan, the witch with heavenly secrets.
  • In the frigid winter of '31, a boy king sought fame while a girl knight ignited legends.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: The English, The French, King Charles II, The Rest is History
  2. – 10:00: The English, Bishop of Bove, King Charles II, Richard Boschamp
  3. – 15:00: Pierre Cauchon, Pierre Koshaw
  4. – 20:00: The English, King Charles II
  5. – 25:00: The English, King Charles II
  6. – 30:00: The English
  7. – 35:00: King Charles II
  8. – 40:00: The English, The Execution of Joan of Arc, The Rest is History
  9. – 45:00: The English, The French, King Charles II
  10. – 50:00: The English, King Charles II, The English Crown
  11. – 55:00: The English, The French, King Charles II, The Hundred Years' War
  12. – 59:47: The Rest is History

Notable quotes from "The Fall of Joan of Arc | EP 4"

  • Today on the rest is history, one of the most extraordinary moments in all human history. This is the trial of Jonavar when at last all will be revealed. Was she really hearing voices from heaven or.
    about The Rest is History · at
  • Of this story in many ways. So he had arrived he's a little boy he arrives in Ru and the French sadly don't really take to him do they? Well, so Henry V 6th is one of the great…
    about The French · at
  • Of Valwa, who for a few generations have been the royal dynasty of France. And Charles II having hitched his wagon to the star of Jonavar has been crowned king in the great…
    about King Charles II · at
  • Joan had first been taken prisoner. So to quote that edict, our beloved and loyal counselor, the bishop of Bove, and this is a guy we've heard of before, Pierre Koshaw. So…
    about Pierre Cauchon · at
  • Has been prepared. the stake has been erected. Everything is ready to go. The sentence is that Joan is to be burned alive. consumed by the purifying flames of fire.
    about The Execution of Joan of Arc · at
  • Up and they were dumped unceremoniously into the sen. So 6 and 1/2 months after that in Paris in NRAM, no less, Henry V 6th was crowned as Henry II of France.
    about The English Crown · at
  • Kangaroo court. Yes. So again you know in this proclamation that he issues in February 1450 the English had tried Joan by certain persons who had been chosen and given this…
    about The English · at
  • Superseded. The age of English military supremacy has gone. and in effect the death of Tolbert at the battle of Castanor in 1453 marks the end of the hundred years war. And of…
    about The Hundred Years' War · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Pierre Cauchon — Person · Presiding judge / chief inquisitor (bishop oversee · 1 mention · first at
    Presented as the key legal-theological architect of the proceedings, meticulous about procedure, driving the interrogation strategy on voices and cross-dressing.
  • Henry Beaufort — Person · Referenced senior churchman/power broker (cardinal · 2 mentions
    Appears at the abjuration scene as the English cardinal advising Cauchon; his stance helps determine that Joan is imprisoned rather than immediately executed after recanting.
    The only English cardinal at the time, a guy called Henry Bowfort.
  • Dunois — Person · Referenced French commander / Joan’s ally · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as Joan’s comrade at Orléans and later a leading captain under Charles VII; symbolizes the later French reconquest and vindication narrative.
    And by his side, his greatest captain is with him. And this is the man who is no longer known as the bastard of all but since 1439 as the count of Dunoir the guy who had been at Jones side at her.
  • King Charles II — Person · 11 mentions · first at
  • Richard Boschamp — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Castle in Ru. and this is a very formidable man, a guy who makes a very formidable jailer. He is Richard Boschamp the Earl of Warick and he had been a very close friend of Henry V.
  • Bishop of Bove — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Joan had first been taken prisoner. So to quote that edict, our beloved and loyal counselor, the bishop of Bove, and this is a guy we've heard of before, Pierre Koshaw. So…
  • Pierre Koshaw — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Loyal counselor, the bishop of Bove, and this is a guy we've heard of before, Pierre Koshaw. So Pierre Koshaw is going to preside over this. It's important to say, isn't it?…
  • Dunoir — Person · 1 mention · first at
    With him. And this is the man who is no longer known as the bastard of all but since 1439 as the count of Dunoir the guy who had been at Jones side at her greatest triumph at the relief of the siege of Ole.

Concepts & topics

  • The Hundred Years' War — Concept · Core topic · 1 mention · first at
    The historical conflict between England and France that provides the backdrop for Joan of Arc's story.
  • The English — Concept · Key argument · 19 mentions · first at
    Represent the opposing force in Joan of Arc's story, responsible for her trial and execution.
  • The French — Concept · Key argument · 5 mentions · first at
    Represent the nation Joan of Arc fought for, later rehabilitating her reputation.
  • The Inquisition — Concept · Key argument · 2 mentions
    The ecclesiastical court responsible for Joan of Arc's trial.
    This is an ecclesiastical court and it is literally an inquisition.
  • The English Crown — Concept · Key argument · 2 mentions · first at
    Represents the authority behind Joan of Arc's trial and execution.
  • The French Crown — Concept · Key argument · 1 mention · first at
    Represents the authority Joan of Arc fought to restore.
    Know it been a possession of the English crown for 300 years by this point. The French take that back. 1453, the old war dog, Sir John Tolbert, the guy who'd been fighting at…

Places & events

  • The Execution of Joan of Arc — Event · Key event · 1 mention · first at
    The culmination of Joan of Arc's trial, where she is condemned and executed.
  • Ru — Place · Setting · 7 mentions
    City where Joan of Arc was tried and executed, a key location in the narrative.
    The very place where Henry VI is staying.
  • The Retrial of Joan of Arc — Event · Key event · 5 mentions
    Posthumous trial that rehabilitated Joan of Arc's reputation.
    It comes in the palace of the Archbishop of Ru. And this is the day that the judges who have been appointed to review Jonavar Jean La Pusel's trial that they meet to announce the results of their inquiry. Yeah. And they have, you know,.
  • The Coronation of Charles VII — Event · Key event · 2 mentions
    A pivotal moment in Joan of Arc's story, where she fulfills her mission.
  • The Siege of Orléans — Event · Key event · 2 mentions
    A significant military engagement where Joan of Arc played a pivotal role.
  • The Seine — Place · Refers to the river in France · 1 mention
    Clarifies the geographical reference in the context of the discussion about Joan of Arc and the historical events in France.
    King of France, Henri Du Henry II, who is better known in England as King Henry V 6th. Now Henry had arrived in France in April 1429 and 3 months later he had made a ceremonial entry into Ru where unfortunately Tom Henry had not.
  • Kas — Place · 1 mention

Media & podcasts

  • The Rest is History — Media · Host · 3 mentions · first at
    The podcast where the discussion about Joan of Arc and the Hundred Years' War takes place.

Full transcript with timestamps

Today on the rest is history, one of the most extraordinary moments in all human history. This is the trial of Jonavar when at last all will be revealed. Was she really hearing voices from heaven or was the reality rather more satanic? We will be delving into the records of the trial. We'll be exploring the truth. We'll be solving the mystery of Jon of Arc once and for all. and we will describe what happened when the English tied her to the stake and the flames began to build. Enjoy.

Henry, by the grace of God, King of France and England, to all who will see this present letter, greeting. It is sufficiently notorious and well-known. How for some time passed, a woman calling herself Joan the maid abandoned women's clothes and dressed and armed herself like a man, a thing against divine law and abominable to God and condemned and forbidden by every law. She committed cruel murders and as reported seduced and abused simple people by trying to convince them that she was sent by God and new heavenly secrets.

While fostering these deceptions and engaging in hostilities against us and our people, she was captured fully armed by some of our loyal subjects, then brought to us as a prisoner. And because many have suspected and accused her of superstition, of spreading false dogmas, and of crimes of treason against divine majesty, we have been urgently entreated by the Reverend Father, our beloved and loyal counselor, the bishop of Bouvet, to surrender Joan to the Reverend Father for questioning and examination, so that after gathering a proper assembly, he can proceed against her according to the rules and regulations. s of divine and canon law. So that was a proclamation issued on the 3rd of January 1431 and it was issued in the name of the 9-year-old king of France, Henri Du Henry II, who is better known in England as King Henry V 6th. Now Henry had arrived in France in April 1429 and 3 months later he had made a

ceremonial entry into Ru where unfortunately Tom Henry had not impressed the locals had he. So we are in our final episode about Joan of Ark and let's start with Henry V 6 the hero of this story in many ways. So he had arrived he's a little boy he arrives in Ru and the French sadly don't really take to him do they? Well, so Henry V 6th is one of the great losers of English history. Um, and I'm afraid that that um that kind of trend of being a loser begins early cuz here he is. He's 9 years old. He's arrived in Ru and he does not impress people at all because um the crowds have turned out to cheer him and all he does is complain that they're making too much noise. He then heads straight into the castle and basically refuses to leave it. And by early January when that edict that you read out is issued, he is still there.

He's this kind of nervous, very uncarismatic, effectively invisible little boy. And this is a huge problem for the English regime in France because they really need Henry to, you know, work a bit of the old royal magic to work the crowds, all that kind of thing. And Henry's simply refusing to play ball.

To be fair, he's 9 years old. So, I mean, it is what people call a big ask. Yeah. But, but I think you either have that uh that sense for the for the stardust or you don't. And Henry doesn't unlike his father, Henry V, who absolutely did. So, on the one hand, you have Henry, this nine-year-old little boy, uh, cowering in the castle. Now, on the other hand, you have a rival claimant to the, uh, throne of France, don't you? Charles IIth from the house of Valwa, who for a few generations have been the royal dynasty of France. And Charles II having hitched his wagon to the star of Jonavar has been crowned king in the great cathedral at Kas which is where the Valwar kings are traditionally crowned and by doing that he has wormed his way into the hearts and minds of his French compatriots and actually this is a big kind of psychological blow in the struggle between these two characters for the

French throne isn't it it is and so the Duke of Bedford who is uh Henry V 6th's regent in France has decided, you know, there's nothing for it. We're going to have to have a coronation for Henry as well to try and blot out the uh the memory of Charles II's coronation. And this is why he has basically been brought to France. However, there's a problem with this plan because Ras is still under the control of Charles 7th. So, it's inaccessible to Henry V 6th. He can't go there and be crowned. um and Paris, which is the only conceivable alternative uh location for uh coronation. I think Bedford feels it's it's in a very febral state. Again, it's it's too risky at the moment to take Henry V 6th there. So, the Bad I mean, he's useless, but you got to feel for him. He's stuck in Ru. It's an absolutely killing winter, completely bleak and freezing, and he's stuck there waiting for a coronation that it seems

might never come. So, you know, all in all, it's a it's very unfortunate. But this is not the only possible propaganda coup that the English have up their sleeves, is it? Because it's important to them basically to undermine the legitimacy of Charles II. And if they can't get their own candidate into the cathedral to be crowned, one thing they can do is to cast doubt on Charles II's coronation by basically saying the person who has arranged all this, the person who lies, you know, at the heart of his regime is not privy to secrets from heaven uh through voices and angels, but basically is a witch, is a is a is a figure of darkness. And this person is of course Joan the maid who we heard about in the introduction Jonavar because she's now fallen into English hands. She has uh she's been sold by uh a beagandian nobleman to the English. Uh and she's we heard at the end of the previous episode that she'd arrived in

Ruon um on the 23rd of December uh 1430 and she had been handed over to the guy who is the current captain of uh the castle in Ru. Um and this is a very formidable man, a guy who makes a very formidable jailer. He is Richard Boschamp the Earl of Warick and he had been a very close friend of Henry V. Henry V wasn't a guy given to friendship but he liked Warrick and Warrick therefore feels a kind of personal responsibility I think to Henry V 6th and had arrived in France essentially at the head of the young king's escort. Um, and in the words of a contemporary, he was a man of impressive bearing, exceptional judgment and great military experience. And as such, he perfectly understands the urgent need to make an international spectacle of Jones trial.

He knows that this has to be done on the the the stage of not just France, but of the whole of Christendom. But if that's going to happen, he has to keep a tight leash on her

because she's already tried to escape, hasn't she? Twice. And the second time, if if I remember correctly, she jumped out of a 60 ft tower and basically only damaged her back or something. Got very badly concussed. I mean, yeah, I'm not entirely sure. And this is the Middle Ages, so I'm not I don't I don't know. But Warick is not going to let anything like that happen on his watch. So the moment Joan has arrived in Ru, she's taken straight to the city's castle, which is the absolute nerve center of English rule, not just in Normandy, but probably now by France, because Paris has become so unstable. Um, and of course, it's the very place where Henry V 6th is staying. But Jones quarters are obviously much less luxurious than uh than than the kings. Um, she is immune in a a a large, cold, unfernished cell in one of the towers of the castle. And it only has two very narrow arrow slits to let in the light. So, it's a very

kind of grim place to be kept. And in this cell, she is shackled by her ankles to a huge wooden beam. Um, there are four English guards on rotation keeping watch over her day and night. and Warrick forbids anyone to talk to her without permission. So she you know she is absolutely not for instance getting any legal advice.

And the um this point about legal advice is important of course because the English authorities from the outset are determined that she will go on trial, she will be convicted and she will be put to death. And this as we discussed last time is not purely a question of kind of cynical policy. They genuinely believe that she is a witch and that she represents something diabolical, don't they?

Yeah. I I mean I think Bedford especially does and and Warick does as well. And this sense that they are dealing perhaps with satanic powers is one of the factors that has influenced them in agreeing to outsource legal proceedings to the ecclesiastical authorities. And specifically, as we heard in the edict that you read out from uh issued in the name of Henry V 6th, she is going to be transferred for trial to the bishop of the sea in which Joan had first been taken prisoner. So to quote that edict, our beloved and loyal counselor, the bishop of Bove, and this is a guy we've heard of before, Pierre Koshaw. So Pierre Koshaw is going to preside over this. It's important to say, isn't it? It's not a trial as we would understand it. You know, people aren't shouting objection, your honor and all of this kind of carry on.

Yeah. There's no jury or anything like that. No, it is a this is a an ecclesiastical court and it is is literally an inquisition, an investigation into suspected heresy. And well, talk us through some of the procedure because the procedure has been established over the last couple of centuries, hasn't it? And and people, this isn't necessarily a show trial. I mean, people take this stuff very seriously. Yeah, and there's a very precise format by now for Inquisitions. So the initial responsibility of the judges, Koson is one. They are also in due course going to recruit a local head of the Dominican prior to be the second judge. Their responsibility is clear. They have to establish that um the person who is going to be sent to trial has a reputation so shocking, so pestiferous that it positively demands to be investigated. And in the case of Joan, this is seen as being a very simple matter because she by this point has

become easily the most famous woman in Christendom, perhaps you know the most famous person. Full stop. Um so to quote a German theologian contemporary such wonders Joan has performed that not just France but every Christian kingdom stands amazed. So her this trial is going to be massive news whatever happens but it also means that on the 9th of January when Koson indictes Joan as a woman of what he calls Mara farmer so notoriety he can take it as red that everyone knows what she's done. He doesn't have to kind of aduce it. he doesn't have to justify it and he draws up two particular accounts of heretical behavior. The first is to quote the charge sheet that Joan had dared to perform to speak and to publicize many things contrary to the Catholic faith and injurious to its articles. Secondly, that utterly disregarding the honor due to the female sex, throwing off the bridal of modesty and forgetting all

female decency, she wore the disgraceful clothing of men a shocking and vile monstrosity. And these two trials signal what over the course of Joan's trial are going to be the main focus of Koshon's investigations. So specifically, the truth or otherwise of Joan claims to have received direct communication from the heavens. So in other words, the validity or otherwise of her voices. And secondly, what Kosan sees as her absolutely muish insistence on wearing male dress which is directly contrary to biblical injunctions.

It's interesting that that issue about male dress looms so large, doesn't it? It does for reasons that we'll come to in the course of the trial.

So before that, um, Koshaw has to pile up all of this evidence and all of these documents and stuff. And this goes to the point about whether or not this is just a show trial by a kangaroo court. And I believe a lot of scholars now argue that that's to do it an injustice. That actually this is a much more serious and painstaking proceeding than is popularly imagined. Is that right?

Well, and not just popularly imagined, but than is normal in an in an inquisition. It is incredibly detailed and forensic. So to quote uh Daniel Hobbins who published this um translation of all the documents relating to Jones trial into English and he emphasizes in his introduction to that collection the degree to which Koshon is not you know he is not trampling on the recognized procedures uh in in an inquisition. Absolutely. On the contrary, he is going to inordinate pains to ensure that the rules are very very strictly followed. And this is why we have all the many documents that we do relating to to Joan's trial. To quote Hobbins, Koshon believed his role in the trial would bear examination from even hostile observers. And because he knows that, you know, there is we've said there's going to be massive massive international interest in the in this case. That's the whole point of doing

it. So he knows that he can't afford to cut corners because otherwise he will get criticism. everything has to be done precisely by the book. Um, and so this is why even though Koshaw had indicted Joan on the 9th of January, he then spends about 6 weeks making sure that everything is in absolutely perfect order before the trial itself actually begins.

So they send investigators, don't they, to Joan's home village of Dori, which is a difficult task because, as we discussed, it's a liinal space. It was full of bandits and it's now full of French basically. So, it's a dangerous place for for his investigators to go.

And and poor Joan has been subject to a lot of um physical examinations. And now she has yet another one by the Duke of Bedford's wife, the Duchess of Bedford, to check again whether she is a virgin or not. And she still is. So, she passes that test at any rate.

Yeah. And meanwhile, Koshaw is drawing up all of these lists of questions and stuff, isn't he? He's hiring people so officials and inquisitors and whatnot.

Yes. So a huge number of um advisers, assessors, examiners, uh theologians, expert witnesses, all these kind of people are being lined up. And in fact, over the course of the trial, 131 lawyers, theologians, priests, abbots end up participating in it. And the the kind of amazing fact for people who think that this is an English kangaroo court, all but eight of these 131 figures are French. That's so surprising.

And of those eight, only three are English. It's a lawyer and two theologians from Oxford.

Now, that really is a twist because I'd always assumed this was a completely English-run affair. And actually, but these are French people who are they're part of Henry V 6th's party, his faction as it were. Are they? Yeah. All loyal to the beandians. They genuinely think that uh Henry is appointed by God. They accept the treaty of Tua. They think that Charles IIth is an impostor uh usurper. So they are they are all in.

Right. Well, they say no tremendous people. So uh the 20th of February, Kos is ready and he delivers this formal summons to Joan uh telling her you have to appeal before the tribunal the following day. And so at 8:00 on the morning of the 21st of February, this very dramatic day begins.

Yes. So Joan is led down from her cell uh up in the tower and she's led out into a courtyard um and taken to the chapel of the castle in Ruon. Um and this is where Koshaw and um the assessors are gathered and of course you know we've said how the apparatus of this trial is very French but the security is definitely provided by the English. So there are English guards everywhere and the Earl of Warick is a kind of constant lurking presence in the background. He is definitely keeping an eye on proceedings. So Joan is brought in for her trial. She is still dressed in male clothes. Her dark hair is still cropped short. And although obviously she hasn't been getting much sunlight because her cell only has those two arrow slits, she impresses people I think with her her bearing. She looks resolute. She looks unbowed. But you know, she's a teenage girl and she is being brought into this room full of

men, all of whom are are much older than her and of course who are infinitely her superiors in learning. So Joan, you know, we've said she was raised peasant. She's illiterate. She has no expertise in theology. She has no familiarity with the kind of moral and met metaphysical terms that her judges and her assessors are going to be banding around and she has no real understanding of the legal procedures in which she is now ins snared. Um, she has the vocabulary, she has the modes of expression of a peasant, a very smart, intelligent, often sassy peasant. But, you know, she is she is not a scholar from the University of Paris. And these are the, you know, the guys that she is facing.

And I think it is an incredibly cfgaresque environment because, you know, we've said she doesn't have a defense lawyer. She's going to have effectively conduct her own defense. She has all these kind of guys who are large numbers of people who are just firing questions at her. There's never a single topic. They're always coming at her at different angles. There isn't any continuity of the personnel. You know, one judge will be there one day, gone the next. I mean, incredibly bewildering for her, I think, and intimidating. But right from the start, she displays an astonishing degree of self-possession of spirit. and to read the trial proceedings. I think it is impossible not to be incredibly impressed by her.

So it starts by Koshon tells her you must swear an oath on the gospels to tell the truth. Um and she kind of lays down a marker right from the beginning, doesn't she? Because she says, "I don't know what you wish to ask me. Perhaps you might ask me things I can't tell you things." So what are these things that she can't tell him? Well, there's a number of things, but absolutely top of the list is her voices. And she tells Koshon, you know, I'm very happy to answer questions about my parents or about, you know, everything that I've been doing since I left their house.

But, and to quote her, the revelations to her from God as she defined those voices, she is saying, you know, that's a different matter. They are off limits. And she goes on to explain that she had only ever talked about these voices to Charles II. and she doesn't believe that she is permitted by heaven to discuss them. And she specifies, you know, I am I am not allowed to talk about them even where it necessary to cut off my head. And she then tells Koshaw, you know, but I might be able to in 8 days time.

What's happening in 8 days time? Well, it's obviously a number that she's kind of snatching from the void.

The voices have promised to get back to her by 8 days. Yeah, the voices will get back to her. Exactly. Wow. And Koshaw had not been expecting this, but you know, he's not having any of it. And in the days that follow, he and the assessors are just harrowing and chivying Joan relentlessly to try and force her to talk about the voices,

right? So Joan adopts different tactics, doesn't she, to keep the inquisitors at bay. So one of them, nice cricketing metaphor for you, Tom, she plays a dead bat. Next question. Often she says certainly at the beginning she says this thing you know this is just between me and God. I'm not going to tell you everything for I don't have permission. But then she changes the strategy at times doesn't she? She talks she says well you need to talk to somebody else. You need to talk to the scholars who investigated me in Poatier. Remember we talked about that when it was sort of like a kind of viviveror she had um by Charles II's churchman. And there's such a kind of touching degree of naivity to that to imagine that the scholars in English rumor would ever go and consult the scholars in Valois Poatier. Um you know it's kind of a reminder that she doesn't entirely have a handle on the the politics of it all. I think and also

I mean having said that she's not absolutely got her finger on the pulse of of of the politics. I mean, she does have this incredible kind of earthy common sense of a peasant, if you were a 19th century historian, you'd call it, you know, but she, you know, she's started kind of being badgered by Koshaw and said, "You've got to tell us everything." And she responds, "There's a saying among little children that people are often hanged for telling the truth, you know, and she's she's not wrong there." But basically there are 15 sessions of interrogation and they are exhausting and they are kind of merciless and over time she begins to concede more and more ground she does.

So already by the second session so remember in the first session she said I'm not going to talk about the voices by the second session she's already doing that she's starting to talk about how she first heard them um how she'd known that it was an angel speaking to her. So all the details that we mentioned in our first episode describing how Joan came to hear the voices the f back in do remy this is where those details come from. And then in the third session she reveals that the voice is still very much a presence.

It's still very much with her. So she tells Koshaw and and the rest of the court that she had heard the voice three times the previous day. And she specifies once in the morning, once at vespers, and a third time when the bell rang for the Hail Mary at night. And people may remember that the very first time back in Dome Remy when she heard the ringing of bells. She reveals that the voice had woken her up in the morning while she lay sleeping. And she also says that she had asked it for uh its advice on how best to deal with her interrogators. And she says, "The voice told me to answer boldly and God would help me." And then in the fourth session, so that was the third session.

In the fourth session, we get a real bombshell, don't we? Because for the first time, she says, I know where the voice comes from. I know what the voice is. It is the voice of St. Katherine and St. Margaret, and their forms are crowned with beautiful crowns in rich and precious fashion. So remind listeners, Tom, St. Catherine of Katherine Wheel firework fame had been martyed but for refusing to surrender her virginity and St. Margaret exactly the same. And a further detail St. Margaret had been so fired with the love of the gospel that she had dressed up as a man to smuggle herself into a monastery.

Right. Very yeah very suggestive. So there's an emphasis there on virginity and on crossdressing which people may feel is perhaps psychologically significant. Um and then shortly after that bombshell, there's another bombshell because she um describes again in detail the very first time she heard the voice back in Dome and she reveals who precisely had been behind that voice to quote her, I saw St. Michael before my eyes and he was not alone but was well attended by angels from heaven. So St. Michael the captain, the archangel uh who is the captain of heaven, the great patron of French resistance to the English, it's St. Michael also who had spoken to her.

So you've got St. Katherine, St. Margaret, St. Michael. So you me mentioned the great historian Johan Housinger and this argument that basically this is the first time it's occurred to her who the voices are that previously she didn't know. Yeah. So to quote Huzzinger, it seems plausible to me that it was only fairly late, perhaps even only during her trial, that Joan linked her inspirations to the figures she knew best and cherished most among the saints. And so these saints, you know, she would have viewed them almost as her intimates. And I guess what Husinger is suggesting is that under the pressure of this interrogation, she reaches for these saints almost as metaphors for the voices. You know, she is being harried and harried and harried, and she's desperate to try and put into words to explain to her her inquisitors what the voices mean to her, why she loves them, why she trusts them,

why these voices bring her consolation. And so she turns to the saints that she loved best. And I think that what you get in this testimony from Joan is a sense that she is trying to understand what she's been having and definitely her inquisitors are struggling to understand as well because there is a real sense in which what Joan's testimony reveals is an experience of the supernatural that is fundamentally unlike most other testimonies from visionaries from people who claim to have heard or witnessed the saints.

So like Katherine Sienna who we mentioned before. So it's not like that. It's different. It's more more earthy, more concrete, more

less abstract. I think right Joan is not a girl for abstractions. So on the one hand Joan is absolutely convinced that her her voices do come from heavenly entities that they are independent of her that they are exterior of her that you know they are not rising up from inside her from from her head or whatever. On the other hand, and this I think is what distinguishes her from most visionaries, she's incredibly matterof fact about them. They are as real to her as her parents had been or you know her friends back in Dre. So Kosha asks her, did St. Margaret speak English? And Joan thinks this is a ridiculous question.

She laughs. Why should she speak English? She's not on the side of the English. And then again she's asked, well what about St. Michael? did you know was he clothed or was he naked? And Joan answers well ridiculous question. Of course God can clothe St. Michael. And so I think it's unsurprising that her judges who perhaps are too attuned to abstractions and to notions of the supernatural and theology and so on, they really struggle to get a handle on the kind of the vividness of just how real these voices are to Joan.

Interesting. They don't think that Joan is making this up. I think there is one inquisitor who does think this, who does think that she is deluded.

I mean, it's not unheard of for teenage girls to make up stuff. No, it is interesting. And I think when you read her testimony, you can see why they why they would believe that because Joan is speaking with an utter conviction. Um, and although we haven't really heard her in her own voice before this, except when she write dictates her letters, I think the way in which, you know, she convinces people that what she's saying is true, whether it be the king or, you know, her fellow captains or the common soldiers or whatever, there is an intensity and a conviction that is very convincing. Now, of course, the the issue then once that is accepted is if these voices are real, then what are they? It is impossible for the inquisitors in Ru to accept what Joan is insisting that they are of heavenly origin because of course this is a political trial and if they accept that these voices are of he heavenly origin

then that is immediately to destroy the legitimacy of the Lancastrian regime that they are serving. Equally though to condemn the voices as satanic raises its own issues and the inquisitors are learned men and a lot of them are honest men and they are troubled by the question of whether it is actually heretical to be deceived by Satan because you know humans have fallen. We are all in a sense deceived by Satan.

Satan is very powerful like it's not your fault if Satan gets his teeth into you. And so another example of how this isn't just a kangaroo court opinion among the assessors on this issue is split and one of the the theologians actually says well you know this is above our pay grade I think we should really go and consult the pope and of course koshaw and definitely war is having none of that you know we can't can't afford to involve the pope in this that would be terrible so it's a bit of a nightmare for koshaw uh and what he really needs is for Joan simply to confess her errors and recant because that would cut the whole gordion and not. And so he and his fellow judges focus on two particular aspects of Joan's testimony. And they've obviously kind of sniffed these two areas as being the ones where Joan is most vulnerable.

And the first of these people may remember at the Doofa had asked Joan for a sign to reassure him that she really was who she said she was. She really had been sent from by God.

And you didn't tell us what this sign was. You kept this a secret, Tom. Right. And that is because Joan wanted to keep it a secret herself. She had been throughout the course of the trial exceedingly reluctant to reveal it. And she kept insisting, you know, I have promised to keep this a secret. She doesn't actually say who, too. I think the inquisitors assume that she had promised her voices, but it may be that she'd promised Charles II. We we don't know. Anyway, finally she just gets worn down and she reveals the truth and she says that an angel had appeared and had brought the DOA a crown of purest gold.

The angel appeared to her and to the DOA and to the DOA and to the court. Everyone in the court in

everyone in the court. Yes. Okay. That this angel had been accompanied by a host of other angels and also by uh St. Katherine and by St. Margaret.

What? They're all crowded into the council chamber or whatever. Well, Joan will later specify that they were very small. I mean, I think she's implying that they're kind of shaded away into a different dimension. Throughout her account of this, she's obviously really struggling to make sense of something that she feels is real, but can't put into words. However, these are the words that she gives. She then says that the angel had given the crown to the Archbishop of Ras, and that the Archbishop had then given it to the king. And I see your expression. It's one of disbelief and dare I say contempt. Well, you you were not alone because the theologians listening to this, they just say, "This is mad. This is ridiculous." And there's one particular one from Paris who says, "This is a presumptuous, misleading, and penicious falsehood, a fabricated matter that diminishes the dignity of angels."

I mean, that's my objection to it actually, that it diminishes the dignity of angels.

You would have uh served well on the bench of assessors at Joan's trial. I think I'd be a brilliant inquisitor, to be honest. So the other issue of course is this perennial problem of her male clothing. And the reason is because it opens Joan up to a very obvious accusation. Joan says that essentially she is wearing her clothes, her male clothes because the voices want her to wear them. However, this is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the church. So essentially Joan is placing the testimony of her voices above that of the church and this is palpably heretical.

She hasn't got a leg to stand on here basically not even a a leg of male hose. It also of course in the opinion of her assessors demonstrates that the voices are indeed satanic because the voices would not be instructing her to do something that is against biblical instructions. So that also is is something where they feel Joan is on a very sticky wicket. So on the 23rd of May, those two charges, the fact that she made up rubbish about, you know, the the sign that she gave Charles the 7th and the fact that she insists on wearing male clothing, together with 10 other charges, among which is the proposition that by jumping out of the 60ft tower, she'd been trying to commit suicide rather than escape and kind of various other items like that.

These are presented to Joan. She's told that in the opinion of her judges, these charges satisfy them that she is indeed a heretic. And her judges require her to confess and to repent all these faults if she is to be spared.

Right? And she doesn't, does she? For my words and deeds mentioned in this trial, I refer to them and I wish to stand by them. So, she's going to stick to her guns. She's not going to she's not going to change, you know, change her gene now. She's still standing strong. So the next day, a tumbril is brought to the foot of a tower. Joan is led down. She's put into the tumbril and uh the tumbril then rattles through the streets of Rumor to an abbey in the center of the town where there is uh a cemetery and this is the largest open space in the city. Uh and thousands have gathered there and they are gathered around a huge wooden stage on which Koshaw is sitting. um his fellow judge, the Dominican, all the various other assessors from Joan's trial um and a host of ecclesiastical luminaries of whom the leading figure is a genuine cardinal um the only English cardinal uh at the time, a guy called Henry Bowfort

who is also he's the richest man in England and he is the great uncle of Henry V 6th. So a very serious player indeed. uh Warrick of course is also you know he's he's come to watch the Duke of Bedford is not there he is absent in Paris but of course he is keeping a very close eye on proceedings as well so Joan is led to a scaffold and she has been she's stood there to hear her sentence before the sentence is delivered however a theologian comes forward joins her on the scaffold and delivers a sermon and his text is a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remain in the vine in other words. Um, someone who detaches herself from the vine of the church is asking to be consigned to the fire. I mean, that's the that's the subtext.

Joan listens to the sermon. She still refuses to confess. And so Koshaw uh rises to his feet and he delivers his judgment which is that the accused is a heretic and therefore like a withered vine should be cast out of holy church and handed to the secular arm which in effect is Warrick and the English. And the executioner is standing by outside the cemetery. So beyond the consecrated ground of the abbey um a great bonfire has been prepared. Uh the stake has been erected. Everything is ready to go. The sentence is that Joan is to be burned alive. Um consumed by the purifying flames of fire.

So the end is approaching Tom. But is there a twist? There is Dominic. Because as Koshaw is saying this, suddenly unexpectedly, Joan rises to her feet. And Koshon is so surprised by this that he hesitates. And as he hesitates, Joan raises her voice again. And she declares to the astonishment of everyone gathered there that she is going to submit to the church and her judges. After all, she is going to objure her visions and revelations. And she repeats this over and over again. Joan the maid at the very last moment has been brought to submit. Criy, what a twist. Come back after the break to find out what happens next.

Welcome back to The Rest is History. What an extraordinary twist. So after all that, after all her defiance at the trial, Jonavar to the astonishment of her judges, of the bishop of Mish Kushon, and everybody else who has gathered in the center of Ru to see her condemnation to the flames, she has just recanted, objured her sins. And Koshong, who expected her to go down fighting, is so stunned by this, isn't he, that he doesn't know what to say.

Yeah. And so he's he um he turns to Cardinal Bowford and says, "Well, what on earth do I do now?" And Buffett replies that Joan has spoken out as a penitant. And so therefore, there can be no question of handing her over to the secular arm. In other words, Warick and and the English guards. um and instead should she should be classed back into the bosom of mother church. And this I think is a a big reassurance to Koshaw because of course Buffer you know he's not just a cardinal so he knows what he's talking about on the theological dimension but he is also the great uncle of Henry V 6th so he can be presumed to be speaking for the uh the English establishment at the same time and so Koshaw you know he's got the backing of the cardinal so he he stands up and he orders that um Joan's abjuration be drawn up in the form of a document and this document obliges Joan specifically to acknowledge that she had been the

dupe of evil spirits and the emphasis is on that word dupe. So she is not admitting to witchcraft but she is publicly stating that she had been tricked by satanic forces uh when she led Charles IIth to his coronation in Aras and this in the opinion of Koshaw is sufficient job done you know he's got his result

right so she wasn't so she wasn't colluding with evil she was deluded by evil that's a important important difference isn't it

yes and so this abjuration is then brought to Joan and she marks it with a And Koshon now delivers his sentence on the penitant. First of all, he releases her from the bonds of her excommunication. But then in the very next sentence, he delivers a crushing blow which obviously stuns Joan, who I think was expecting that with her abjuration, she would be set free. Koshon declares, "Because you have rashly sinned against God, we condemn you to a salutary penance of perpetual imprisonment with the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction that you may weep there for your faults." And Joan is then bundled away and she is led back to her cell where a few hours later she is um visited by a delegation of clerics and they bring her a dress, a woman's dress um which she immediately puts on um and she is then shaved bald so that all traces of her you know her masculine haircut is uh gone. So, a big

blow to Joan this because she I think probably very naively thought that they would just say, "Oh, well, you know, uh, off you go. Well done." But she's going to be locked up forever. Now, what do the English high command think? Because they wanted to make a real example of her because they genuinely believed that she was serving the interests of Satan and supporting the French and hearing her voices and stuff. And now they've been slightly frustrated of their goal, haven't they?

Yeah. Well, Bedford isn't actually there, but I think there's no question that all along his goal has been to see Joan condemned as a sorceress because her powers of witchcraft are essentially what excuse him his failures. If he can blame, you know, the disasters that have overwhelmed the Lancastrian regime in France on sorcery, then in a sense he is absolved of personal failure. And this, of course, is a kind of tribute to Joan. It's an acknowledgment that I suppose that rather than just being a dupe, you know, she'd been something much more sinister, much more significant, you know, that she personally had been the agent of English misfortunes, which in turn is to cast her as someone kind of special. And I think there's an irony here because for Joan, the sense of herself as someone special, I think that also was, you know, that was very important to her. And I think that in the days that follow her confession, she

starts to reflect on this and she thinks, "I've given up this sense of myself as God's medium, as God's messenger in exchange for life imprisonment. Is Is that a a reasonable exchange?" And so she falls to, you know, well, to pondering her future.

Yeah. She's given up her identity, right, as she as she sees it. She's given up what made her special and now she's bitterly regretting it because she's just sitting there in prison and that that will be her reality for the rest of her life

and she's betrayed her king and I think most crucially of all she has betrayed her voices and so 4 days after her recantation ominous news is brought to Koshaw and to Warick that Joan has put her male clothes back on. When her assessors come to see her, she gives various reasons for doing this. First of all, she claims that she was tricked into swearing never again to wear men's clothes, that she hadn't realized that was what she was doing. She then, I think, also strongly implies that her guards were sexually abusing her. So, to quote the record of the cler who was taking the minutes, that being among men, she thought that wearing men's clothes was more lawful and appropriate than wearing women's. And she also declared that that she would rather die than spend her entire life uh you know, fettered, living on bread and water. And so her judges, I think, are clearly stunned by this. And they say to her,

well, you know, if this was the case, why why ever did you confess? Why ever did you objure? And then comes, I I think the most touching moment in the whole story of Joan. She answers very simply, and it brings home to you, this is a teenage girl. She says, I did it for fear of the fire. And it's I kind of find it heart-rending. And perhaps even at this late moment, she might still have saved herself. But then comes the straw that breaks the inquisitorial back. Again, to quote the cler who's been taking the minutes, she was asked whether she had heard the voices of St.

Catherine and St. Margaret since the last Thursday, which is when she had repented. She said yes.

Oh no, she's back on the voices again. And the cler then later scribbled in the margin of the minutes this single comment. Responsio Mortifera. A fatal reply. The reply that is going to kill her,

right? Because the very next day, the 29th of May, Kosong gathers his experts in theology in canon and civil law. They meet in the archbishop's residence in Ruon and their verdict is unanimous, isn't it? Joan is now very she has outed herself very clearly in defiance of the court and of their opinion as a heretic. Yes. And so that being so, the church washes her hands of her and they decree that she is unregenerate and therefore excommunicate and therefore to be handed over to the secular power. And the next day, early in the morning, very early in the morning, one last deputation of clerics come to visit her. And you can imagine how thrilling that must be for Joan on her last day. Yet another load of clerics. And Joan talks to them in very muted, very despondent tones, as well she might have done. And you can see what she's been thinking about from the topics that she brings up. So her

thoughts are still very much on on Charles II and that sign that she had given him. And she you can tell that she has been turning it over in her mind that she's really been struggling to make sense of what precisely had happened. And she says that yes, there had been an angel who had given the DA a crown, but that angel, she now says, had been herself.

That's a mad thing to say. Do you think she's gone from saying the room was packed with angels who were two feet tall to saying uh actually I was the angel. I think to say I was the angel is is high risk. I think that it was a very intense moment for her. I mean who knows what was going on but definitely she felt that something had happened and that she you know she she is trying to make sense of it still in her very last hours right

and then of course she speaks of her voices and she declares whether they are good or evil spirits they appeared to me. So that suggests a degree of doubt that she's wobbling again.

I don't think she's wobbling, but that she she loves them and she's going to stay loyal to them even even if you know at the cost of being burnt to death.

Okay. So then a frier enters the cell and he hears Joan's confession. And then throughout this the term of her her imprisonment, Joan has been denied communion, being denied the Eucharist, and she has a great devotion to the Eucharist. And so this has been a source of great distress to her. And now I think a gesture of mercy on Koshon's part. He allows her to have communion. So that's nice of him.

Well, that's kind. It's now 9:00 and it is the morning of the 30th of May 1431 and Joan is brought from her cell. She's weeping. She is surrounded by a large squad of English soldiers and they escort her from the castle to the market square in Ru where inevitably a huge crowd they've picked up on the news. They've gathered. Joan is in male clothes so she's not forced into a dress. Um, and on her head she wears a kind of a cap like a kind of oldfashioned dunes cap. It's um inscribed with the words heretic, relapse, apostate, idoltor. So uh that's all bad news. And basically the format on this morning is the same as it had been 6 days previously. So a sermon is given uh and then Koshaw reads out the sentence but this time Joan keeps silent. The sentence is delivered and accepted and Joan is then handed over to the English guards who remove her up to uh the top of an immense bonfire. And Joan is weeping and she requests a

crucifix. And an English guard with a kind of display of of mercy, of kindness, of sympathy, gives her a makeshift crucifix. And Joan hugs it to her chest as she is then chained and bound to the stake. And the fire is lit and the smoke begins to rise and Joan uh her lips had been moving in silent prayer throughout and then people in the crowd hear her cry out through the smoke, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. And in due course, decades later, lots of stories would be told of her death. So there's a story that a priest had rushed to a nearby church and had brought out a crucifix from there, you know, on a great kind of pole and held that before her uh for as long as she could see it until the smoke blotted it out. That the executioner that one of the English soldiers um even Cardinal Buffett himself had wept to watch her fate and that her heart, no matter how repeatedly the fire was stoked, refused to burn.

And again, people can make of those stories what they will. But of one thing, there is no doubt. Once the embers had cooled, her ashes were swept up and they were dumped unceremoniously into the sen. So 6 and 1/2 months after that in Paris um in NRAM, no less, Henry V 6th was crowned as Henry II of France. Now meanwhile in the court of Charles IIth, the rival court, has Joan been turned into a martyr? Have there been hows of protest? Has her death become a symbol of suffering, of the sanctity of France, violated by the English? No.

They don't make anything of Joan at all. Isn't that extraordinary that Charles II, who owes her so much, basically acts as though she'd never existed? Well, is it extraordinary? I'm not sure it is because Joan has become a huge embarrassment. Um, and you know she is now a condemned heretic. So Charles IIth Charles II wants to keep very very quiet about it. But the thing is people do not forget about her. She remains very much an emblem of French resistance despite her fate and her death does not lead to a revival of Lancastrian fortunes. Um, and the coronation of Henry in NRAAM does not blot out the memory of how Charles IIIth with Joan at his side had been crowned in RA and the continuing silence of Charles IIIth, the ungrateful silence of Charles II, one might say, his refusal so much as to mention the name of this peasant girl who had done so much to save him from ruin. M

this doesn't mean that Charles has forgotten Joan and actually in due course 19 years after she had been burnt to death in Ru in February 1450 finally Charles does speak her name and he says a long time ago Jean Laucusel was taken and captured by our ancient enemies and adversaries the English and brought to the city of Ru and the reason that Charles feels able to speak her name at last is because since Joan's death and 1450 so much has changed. So to go through some of the the bullet points, in 1435, the Duke of Burgundy, Philip the Good, who for so long had been resolute in his refusal to um reach terms with the guy who he blamed for murdering his father, namely Charles the 7th. He does come to terms with Charles IIth and a pact is signed between France and Burgundy and this effectively leaves the English alone. Following year, Charles the 7th enters Paris. He has reclaimed the capital of France. 1440 a real straw in

the wind. The English are so desperate to try and patch up terms that they allow the Duke of Olor who'd been kept as a prisoner in England since the battle of Azenor. They allow him to come home back to France and he his captivity had been the longest of any prisoner in the entire history of the H 100red years war. And then in 1449 Charles II embarks on the conquest of Normandy. And in November 1449, so that is four months before he finally mentions the name of Jon of Arvar, he had entered Ru, the capital of English Normandy, and he does so beneath the fluttering of the standard of St. Michael the Archangel.

And by his side, his greatest captain is with him. And this is the man who is no longer known as the bastard of all but since 1439 as the count of Dunoir the guy who had been at Jones side at her greatest triumph at the relief of the siege of Ole.

So it's now when they reclaim Ru 19 years later that they finally address the issue of of Joan and her treatment by the English. And this is the point at which Charles IIIth basically I guess he kind of institutionalizes the idea that Joan was a martyr destroyed by a kangaroo court. Yes. So again you know in this proclamation that he issues in in February 1450 the English had tried Joan by certain persons who had been chosen and given this task by them. And during this trial they made and committed several errors and abuses such that by means of this trial and the great hatred that our enemy had against her they had her put to death very cruy, iniquitously and against reason. And you can see why Charles is now saying this because if he can have that original verdict scrubbed, then that is a real help in legitimizing his own coronation.

And Charles II does what leaders do today when they want something done. they institute a public inquiry and for the next six years a succession of these inquiries, these inquests, these reports um are delivered and they culminate in in an official retrial and they sift through all the details of Joan's life and all the details of her death. And it has to be said that while this is going on on the public, you know, the public stage of France, great events continue to happen. And these events serve as a reminder to everyone in France that Joan, you know, she'd said that she would uh relieve the siege of Olio or she did. She said that she would crown Charles the 7th and she did. And she had said that the English would be to quot kicked out of France. You know by 1456 when the retrial is is staged that has come true. So in 1450 the French complete their conquest of Normandy. In for 1451 Gaskani in the southwest of

France, so Bordeaux and all of that you know it been a possession of the English crown for 300 years by this point. The French take that back. 1453, the old war dog, Sir John Tolbert, you know, the guy who'd been fighting at um at Olio, who'd been captured at Pate, who had remained the most menacing of all the English captains, resisting the the French. He gets killed, his army gets wiped out um in Gaskini by French artillery. It's a very symbolic moment. You know, the Longbow Bowman are superseded. The age of of English military supremacy has gone. Um and in effect the death of Tolbert at the battle of Castanor uh in 1453 marks the end of the hundred years war. And of all the many conquests of Edward III of Henry V, there is only one tiny fragment of France that remains to England and that of course is Calala. And even that will be lost a century later in the reign of Mary Tuda

of course. But the real moment that sets the seal on France's victory comes in July 1456. The 7th of July doesn't end. It comes in the palace of the Archbishop of Ru. And this is the day that the judges who have been appointed to review Jonavar Jean La Pusel's trial that they meet to announce the results of their inquiry. Yeah. And they have, you know, they've consulted a great number of people. So people who've known Joan, everyone from from Joan's mother to uh Duna, the bastard of Olio and the Duke of Alonso, you know, people remember, you know, her her biggest Duke fan.

They'd all given evidence. Of course, one person who had not given evidence was another of her comrades in arms, Gil Duray, the Breto Guerrerilla leader. Uh, and that was because he had been executed in 1440 on a charge of heresy and of raping and murdering, and I quote the charge sheet, 140 or more children.

Yeah, not a good guy. He's an embarrassment. The veil is drawn over him. So, what's the verdict of the judges? They announced that Joan's original conviction um had been invalid, that it had been delivered corruptly, deceitfully slanderously fraudulently and maliciously. And of course, this not only redeems Joan's own reputation, it also confirms that Charles's coronation in Grass had indeed been ordained by God. And so um Joan is no longer condemned as a heretic and she can be inscribed in the annals of French history as the country's greatest heroine. And it is a position that she has held ever since right the way up to the present day. And next week uh in a special bonus we will be exploring that legacy. And of course if you want to hear that you know what we've got to do.

You got to go to the rest ishistory.com and sign up there. But Dominic, before we leave, we have one last duty to perform and that is to pay tribute to a hero of France whose achievements have been if anything even greater than those of Jonavar. And who is this paragon? So this is somebody else who came from a very obscure background Tom uh and rose to tremendous heights undret of by his peers. He too has spent years hearing voices not the voices of St. Katherine and St. Margaret but rather more cheerfully our voices because this person is Theo Young Smith our producer.

So he has produced at my count at least 450 episodes of the rest is history since he joined the show at the end of 2022. He has run recordings in Ireland, in France, in the Netherlands, in Bosnia Herzuggavina. He's run several live tours of the United States and Australia. He's taken us to New York, to Los Angeles, to Disneyland, and to the Sydney Opera House. He's taken the rest of his history to heights we would never have dreamed of when he joined the show. He's been a great friend and comrade to us. He is a credit to Scotland, to France, and of course to Wellington College.

And and Tom, he will leave. He's moving to spend more time with his Nintendo Switch. and he and he will leave very very very big shoes to fill. So we are tremendously grateful to Theo, aren't we, for the last 3 years. We are so grateful and we are we know we're not a little gutted that he's moving on because he has been so influential on this podcast has played such a crucial role in its success. Um, and he will we this is not the last we will be hearing of from Theo because he will be coming on a bonus in due course where he we'll talk to him about everything he's done with the rest of history. Um, and uh, and perhaps he'll tell us what his plans are cuz to be honest they are as yet opaque. healed also. So about 6 months ago, he began work on the famous uh stones bonus, the Rolling Stones bonus, in which he claimed he was he was piling up books in his in his garrett.

And uh the Stones bonus has never materialized basically because he's been too busy working on the show. But finally, admittedly, very belatedly, the Rolling Stones bonus will finally materialize. So that's something to for everybody to look forward to. So two bonuses to come with Theo. One where he talks about himself which he'll enjoy and one where he talks to Dominic about the Rolling Stones which I think he will also enjoy.

So everybody, thank you very much for listening. Uh Tom, thank you for four splendid episodes and above all Theo, thank you for everything.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "The Fall of Joan of Arc | EP 4"?

Tom Holland (Host), Dominic Sandbrook (Host), Theo Young Smith (Guest).

What is "The Fall of Joan of Arc | EP 4" about?

The examination of Joan of Arc's trial reveals the contentious debate over her claims of divine guidance versus accusations of heresy and treason. Through historical documents, the narrative explores the circumstances surrounding her capture, the motivations behind her persecution, and the tragic events that led to her execution by burning at the stake.

What is mentioned in this The Rest Is History episode?

22 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Pierre Cauchon, The Execution of Joan of Arc, The Hundred Years' War, Ru, The Retrial of Joan of Arc, The Rest is History. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Fall of Joan of Arc | EP 4"?

The episode runs 60 min; the transcript is about 10,447 words in 101 timestamped sections.

More from The Rest Is History

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.