Transcript

The Hero Who Saved Rome In Its Darkest Hour | EP 2

From The Rest Is History · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 54 min · 9,358 words · 79 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "The Hero Who Saved Rome In Its Darkest Hour | EP 2", an episode of The Rest Is History published February 5, 2026 (54 min, about 9,358 words). It mentions 9 people, works and ideas, including Pablius Cornelius Scipio, Carthage, New Carthage, Iberia, Gas Claudius Nero.

What this episode is about

The discussion focuses on Publius Cornelius Scipio, a pivotal Roman general during the darkest days of the Roman Republic when Hannibal's Carthaginian forces threatened its existence. It highlights Scipio's impressive character and leadership, as well as the critical meeting in 206 BC that would set the stage for Rome's resurgence against Carthage.

Key takeaways

  • Scipio’s allure: a handsome warrior redefines Roman masculinity, challenging the grizzled, bearded stereotype of his time.
  • Carthage’s secret weapon? Numidian cavalry—bareback riders instilling Roman dread, proving history favors the agile over the bulky.
  • Scipio’s long hair and clean-shaven face echo Alexander, blending cultures as he shapes Rome’s destiny, not just militarily.
  • Age 19, yet Scipio embodies Roman tradition; his youthful vigor contrasts with the declining Republic, steering destiny from despair.
  • Livy's account: a homoerotic twist in war narratives, revealing how power and attraction shaped alliances in ancient battles.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Pablius Cornelius Scipio, Carthage, Iberia
  2. – 10:00: Alexander the Great, Plenny the Elder
  3. – 15:00: Iberia
  4. – 20:00: Carthage, New Carthage, Iberia
  5. – 25:00: Carthage, New Carthage
  6. – 30:00: Iberia, Pablius Cornelius Scipio
  7. – 35:00: Carthage, New Carthage, Alexander the Great
  8. – 40:00: Carthage, New Carthage, Iberia
  9. – 45:00: Gas Claudius Nero, Marcus Livius Salintor
  10. – 50:00: Carthage, New Carthage, Iberia
  11. – 54:11: Carthage, Iberia, Sicily

Notable quotes from "The Hero Who Saved Rome In Its Darkest Hour | EP 2"

  • Hannibal has been carrying all before him. Carthage is in the ascendant. The Mediterranean runs with blood. For the Romans, time is running out. But now at last they find a hero to lead them back from the abyss of defeat and disgrace.
    about Carthage · at
  • To an appearance and bearing that was viral in the extreme, for he was the very model of a warrior. Scipio was just at the age when his physical powers were at full strength.…
    about Pablius Cornelius Scipio · at
  • So, is he like you going to India on your gap year? Is that what's going on?
    about Alexander the Great · at
  • They've called it Carthage. The Romans call it New Carthage. And this is the sort of center, the base of the Carthaginian Empire in Spain. And this city is on four hills overlooking a.
    about New Carthage · at
  • His Spaniards with their terrifying stabbing swords and so on. So essentially the Scipio brothers are where they are in the northwest corner of Iberia by the Pyrenees…
    about Iberia · at
  • Claudian dynasty, one of the oldest and most prestigious dynasties. So he's called Gas Claudius Nero, and he is he's beautifully groomed, is he? Yeah. Not a hint of body odor.…
    about Gas Claudius Nero · at
  • Strategically important province that will be his once he has finished his consil ship and that is Sicily and the command in Sicily comes not just with boots on the ground i.e.…
    about Sicily · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Pablius Cornelius Scipio — Person · Primary historical protagonist (referenced) · 3 mentions · first at
    Central Roman commander in the episode’s narrative: his charisma, PR, and Spanish campaign are framed as Rome’s answer to Hannibal.
  • Gas Claudius Nero — Person · Roman consul and operational counter-move architect (referenced; transcription variant) · 1 mention · first at
    Intercepts Hasdrubal’s message and executes the rapid march to reinforce Salinator, enabling the Roman victory at the Metaurus; refers to Gaius Claudius Nero.
  • Alexander the Great — Person · Comparative exemplar (referenced) · 4 mentions · first at
    Used as the model for Scipio’s ‘Greek’ heroic styling (clean-shaven, divine aura, serpent paternity myth).
  • Marcus Livius Salintor — Person · Roman consul opposing Hasdrubal (referenced; transcription variant) · 1 mention · first at
    Commands the northern Roman force; his army is reinforced by Nero to defeat Hasdrubal at the Metaurus; refers to Marcus Livius Salinator.
    Hazel. And then there's one in the south with seven legions who's meant to be bottling up Hannibal. So the guy in charge of the Northern Legions, I read in your notes, Tom, he…
  • Plenny the Elder — Person · Referenced later source (referenced; transcription variant) · 1 mention · first at
    Cited for the claim that Scipio was the first Roman to shave daily; refers to Pliny the Elder.
    Alexander there. And what is also a hint of Alexander is the fact that according to Plenny the Elder admittedly writing centuries later, but I think we can rely on him. Scipio was the first Roman to shave daily.

Places & events

  • Carthage — Place · Setting · 21 mentions · first at
    Ancient city-state and empire that was a major power in the Mediterranean, central to the Punic Wars discussed in the episode.
  • New Carthage — Place · Setting · 15 mentions · first at
    Key Carthaginian city in Iberia, central to the strategic military operations discussed in the episode.
  • Iberia — Place · Setting · 11 mentions · first at
    Peninsula where significant military campaigns of the Punic Wars took place, as discussed in the episode.
  • Sicily — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    Island that was a strategic location in the Punic Wars, mentioned as part of Scipio's command.

Full transcript with timestamps

Hello. The darkest hour of the Roman Republic today on the rest is history. Hannibal has been carrying all before him. Carthage is in the ascendant. The Mediterranean runs with blood. For the Romans, time is running out. But now at last they find a hero to lead them back from the abyss of defeat and disgrace. The name of that man is Pablus Cornelius Scipio. The stakes could not be higher. the tension more exciting. Find out what happens next on The Rest is History.

Masina had already heard a great deal about Scipio's prowess as a general and hugely admired him. The Num Midian had formed a picture of the Roman in his mind's eye as a man of powerful and striking physique. But when at last he came face to face with Scipio, he was aruck. For in the flesh, the Roman general was even more impressive than he had been in Masinis's imaginings. Naturally possessed of great dignity. Scipio also, thanks to his longer hair, got a most graceful figure. This, however, owed nothing to any effeminate fussing over fashion or personal grooming, but rather to an appearance and bearing that was viral in the extreme, for he was the very model of a warrior. Scipio was just at the age when his physical powers were at full strength. And even though he had recently been ill, he had quite recaptured his youthful bloom. Indeed, he seemed more handsome than ever. So that was Rob Brighten um describing one

of history's more homoerotic summit meetings. Actually, it was the Italian-born Roman historian, Libby.

So that was your Roman accent, was it? That was uh the accent of an Italian, but actually it was as it went on it degenerated into the accent of an Italian who had set up an ice cream parlor in Swansea in the 1910s.

Dominic, you and Welsh history. You We just can't stop you doing it. It's great to have some Welsh history back on the show. So, that was the Roman historian Livby and he's describing this exciting meeting in 206 BC. We are on the Atlantic coast of Iberia, now Spain. And the participants are two extremely strapping, welloiled and handsome warlords. One of them is Masinisa who is a Berber prince from modernday Algeria, Numidia as it then was. And the other is Pablius Cornelius Scipio who is a Roman patrician young man whom we met in our previous episode. And Scipio, listeners may recall, was the officer whom 10 years before this meeting had rallied the men of Rome in the wake of their shattering defeat at Canai, and he had made them swear never to desert our country, nor to permit any other citizen of Rome to leave her in the lurch. So 10 years on, here he is meeting this oiled warlord. Tom, explain what's going on.

Well, I mean, extraordinary array of accents for starters, but there are some other puzzles as well. So, first of all, attentive listeners may be wondering, what is a Numidian doing meeting up with a Roman? Because um people who've listened to our previous episodes in this ongoing series will recall that the Numidians are the allies not of Rome, but of Carthage. And in fact, they are key allies because they are the best light cavalry in the world. They um they ride bare back. They don't bother with reins. They have spears and all kinds of things. And they are the horsemen who have provided Hannibal effectively with the cutting edge throughout his invasion of Italy and his occupation uh of Italy.

And the Romans have learned to dread the Nimidians possibly more than any other uh of the units in Hannibal's army. So what is going on here? And secondly, what on earth is up with Scipio? Because Dominic, you you read this um this kind of stern traditionalist statement of Roman pluck and determination.

Yeah. I mean, Scipio is only 19 when he's saying that. So he's very callow, but it's very very old school. I mean, it's it's it's patriotic in exactly the way that Roman traditionalists expect young men to be patriotic. But something has changed and something very very sinister. If you recall, people who were paying attention to that reading and and frankly, who wasn't? Scipio now has long hair, the most unroman. So, is he is he like you going to India on your gap year? Is that what's going on?

Well, I I mean, someone else who went to India, of course, is Alexander the Great, and there's a definite hint of Alexander there. And what is also a hint of Alexander is the fact that according to Plenny the Elder admittedly writing centuries later, but I think we can rely on him. Scipio was the first Roman to shave daily. So up until that point, Romans had generally been bearded. But now Scipio has introduced this fashion for um a a clean chin. And that again, of course, is very very Alexander. And when you think of that description, that passage that you read, the sense of awe that Masana feels at seeing this kind of divine godlike figure. I mean, it's quite homeriic. It's the way that that people are described in the Iliad, for instance, seeing Achilles. So, all in all, Scipio is cutting for Roman traditionalists a disturbingly kind of Greek dash because Roman commanders are supposed to

be old and craggy and bearded and all of that. And they are not supposed to look like Achilles. They are not supposed to look like Alexander the Great. So something odd is absolutely going on here. So when Libby is describing Scipio, there is a sense here, isn't there, that Scipio is more than an ordinary Roman general as you've described really this this business about Alexander the Great, for example, there is a sense, isn't there, in Livia's description that Scipio is he's marketing himself as something actually quite old-fashioned as a Greek style as indeed a homeriic hero, right? somebody who has been appointed by the gods to lead the Romans back from the abyss of Canai and Lake Trazamine and all the defeats that Hannibal has inflicted on them. And do you think this is a a conscious thing? And do you think Libby is is genuinely reporting Scipio's PR strategy as it were? This is how Libby

puts it. He absolutely says it's a PR strategy. So to quote Libby, from Scipio's earliest days, he used to present his policies and actions as inspired by dreams or by warnings from heaven. And this is very ostentatiously performative. So Libby tells us that Scipio before he takes any course of action, he will go up to the capital very obviously and sit in the temple of Jupiter as though he is communing with the god. Um, and this in turn fosters what Libby describes as a very empty and foolish story once told of Alexander the Great. That Scipio had been born from the embraces of a giant serpent, a monster that had often visited his mother in her bedroom, but had always glided away and vanished the moment someone came in. I mean, skeptics may say, "Well, there's actually no evidence for this at all." But clearly what what Scipio is doing is trying to imply that the serpent might have been Jupiter

because of course Dominic you will remember that very similar stories were told of Alexander that Jupiter had come in the form of a snake to Alexander's mother.

So Scipio doesn't um obviously doesn't deny these stories does he? Why would he? Uh as Libby says in his um account um whether he was truly so superstitious as to believe this nonsense or whether he fostered reports of it so that people would obey him the more is unclear. So Scipio just lets the stories kind of build and build. Now I guess Scipio knows that what the Romans are craving is well at first what they were craving was a figure of reassurance, right? A conservative figure, a memory of Roman virtues past. But he's changing, isn't he? And he's developing a new strategy to sort of impress his personality on the Roman um masses. And he's becoming I dare I mean Tom, you have compared him in your notes to a rock star. He's turning himself into a figure of kind of rockstar glamour and charisma. He's very He's very good-looking. He's very suave and he's kind of promoting himself as possibly as the son of a god. And of

course, he is in a republic and republics don't tend to look favorably on kind of rock stars posing as the son of a god. So, there must be some people who think this guy's a terrible person. I mean, this is that he's showy and brash. And I mean, this is actually a complaint that people will level. Lots of Roman figures to come, isn't it?

Yes. But Scipio is is establishing a brand that, as you say, many Romans to come will copy well into the period when the republic has actually collapsed and been replaced by an empire. But Scipio is blazing the path for, you know, these kind of younger um showboating emperors who will appear.

But Scipio is going to end up so a lot of people listening to this may already know Scipio is going to end up as the great antagonist of Hannibal. The two of them are kind of linked in the imagination for people who study the classical world. And their encounter, their jewel will become the great turning point in the Punic Wars. And Scipio gives the Romans the one thing they've craved all this time, which is their own figure with the glamour, the charisma, and the effectiveness, the military effectiveness of Hannibal. Now, actually, Hannibal is relatively wellborn, isn't he, in Carthaginian terms. And Scipio is also extremely wellborn. I mean, he is positively posh.

He went to um Harrow Christ Church. Maybe Christ Church or did he go to Durham? No, he went to Christ Church because he he I mean he's the poshest of the posh and he's very smart. He's very charismatic. I mean he's got it all because he is a patrician. So he is from one of the ancient aristocratic dynasties of Rome. But having said that actually the Scipios have only recently come into um political prominence and basically the Punic Wars has been the making of the Scipios and their reputation. So back in the first Punic War, two of them had done well enough to be awarded triumphs.

Um Scipio's uncle is called Calvis. He's nicknamed Calvis, which means Baldi. Um he had been consil in 222 and was a great man for having a crack at the Gauls. The Romans always liked people who could defeat the Gauls. And Calvis's brother, Scipio's father, Pablus, people may remember, had been consil in 218, which was the year that Hannibal had invaded Italy. And admittedly, he hadn't exactly covered himself in glory in that campaign. He tried to to stop Hannibal from invading Italy and failed. And um he'd been injured before the Battle of Trebia, but he hadn't totally screwed things up. And compared to the record of other consoles who had taken on Hannibal, I mean that's you know that that's not bad. And it suggested I think to the to the Roman people to the Roman government that Pablus he had a kind of a basic competence and that in the scale of the crisis that Rome was facing was considered to be enough. And so by 217

both the Scipio brothers Calvis who is the young Scipio's uncle and Pablius his father they have been sent to Iberia to to Spain

and to clarify so Spain later on it's obviously an integral part of the Roman Empire. Hadrien comes from Spain doesn't he? But at the time so you know we're 200 years before the birth of Christ. Spain is a very alien and exotic and terrifying place for the Romans.

It's like something out of a science fiction epic. It's like being sent to a hostile planet because it is teeming with hostile barbarians who clean their teeth with their own urine. I mean completely shocking. Um and they are are masters of a lethal weapon. And this is a short stabbing sword which works by eviscerating an opponent. You plunge it in and you slice it up and all the guts spill out. And the Romans call this weapon a gladius which is a word that later Roman scholars will um derive from the Latin word clades which means slaughter. So kind of synonymous with butchering your enemies. And the Romans have already experienced the gladius because Hannibal has brought lots of Iberians with him to Italy. And unsurprisingly, because the Romans are very, very adaptive, particularly when it comes to kind of military matters, they have begun to use the gladius for themselves um and are starting to master

it. But obviously, it's unsettling to be up against, you know, a whole peninsula full of warriors who were born basically to use it. And so I think that the prime duty of the Scipio brothers when they arrive and there's a kind of Roman outpost in the the the the northwest of Iberia, basically what's now Catalonia, their prime responsibility is not to be wiped out. And this is a huge challenge because they have been sent as the news back in Italy is going from bad to worst. So Hannibal has been inflicting, you know, these incredible defeats on the Romans that we did in the previous series. Lake Trazamine has just been fought. You know, an entire army has been wiped out, a console killed and all of that. And this means that the Senate can't really send many men or many, you know, or supplies or indeed cash to bribe the local tribes to Spain. And so, effectively, the two Scipio brothers are

are penned into, let's call it, Catalonia anacronistically. It's dangerous for them to venture out of that. So if you think of Spain perhaps as being a little bit like Arachus Dune in the Frank Herbert novels, you know, they are hemmed in and they feel that it is perilous to leave that. And I think that if people have a sense of of of this whole story that we're doing today as something that could very easily provide the plot of a kind of one of those epic science fiction novels set on distant planets, they will not be far wrong. The clash of mighty galactic empires, that kind of thing. Okay, so to remind people exactly where we are, we are back at the point when Hannibal is kind of cutting his sway through Italy.

We're with the two Scipio brothers who are our Scipio, so the long-haired Boke. It's his um father and uncle. And so we've we've sort of gone back in time. So, we're in Spain and the problem for them is that they are now facing not just, you know, one Carthaginian general and not just the Iberians with these fancy swords, but the entire Carth the Carthaginian Empire now controls the whole of the southern part of the Iberian Peninsula, doesn't it? And the guy in charge of the Carthaginians at this point in this part of the world is Hannibal's younger brother, Hazdrabel.

and he has with him a pretty mighty force. 13,000 infantrymen, 3,000 cavalry. He has 21 war elephants. He's got all these mines that are the key really to Spain's wealth. It's what makes Spain so attractive to outsiders. So, gold, silver, copper, and he has a city that we talked about last time. They've called it Carthage. The Romans call it New Carthage. And this is the sort of center, the base of the Carthaginian Empire in Spain. And this city is on four hills overlooking a fantastic harbor. It's to this day one of Spain's um Kartahena is one of Spain's key naval bases. You know, like so many cities across the Mediterranean world, it's got these amazing fortifications.

And it has a direct road link with the mines that makes it extremely rich. And basically if Hasdrabel the Carthaginian can keep hold of this then the Scipio brothers basically they can do what they like but they're not going to dislodge him from the Iberian Peninsula. So the the Greek historian Palibius who is our best source for the the Punic Wars I mean he describes it as the chief ornament and the center of the Carthaginian Empire in Spain because not only is it linked to the mines in the hintterland but it is also of course open to the sea. So it's it's it's what enables New Carthage to communicate with Carthage and of course with Italy.

And what this means is that Hazdrabal and the powers in Carthage can coordinate to try and raise reinforcements that can then be sent onwards to Italy. And this is absolutely goes without saying the last thing that the Romans want. They do not want a second Barker brother. So Hannibal Barker, Hazreal Barker, they do not want Hazrabal Barker turning up in Italy with yet another massive Carthaginian army with his elephants and his Numidians and his Spaniards with their terrifying stabbing swords and so on. So essentially the Scipio brothers are where they are in the northwest corner of Iberia by the Pyrenees essentially to block off Hazdrabal's access route to southern Gaul so that he can't follow Hannibal into Italy. And their objective is not just to stop Hannibal but to try and conquer and win over as many of the Iberian tribes as possible and ideally you know conquer them for Rome. But if

they can't do that, then at the very least kind of foster anti- Carthaginian feeling so that Hazdrabel will will have his hands full trying to kind of put out rebellions in Spain. And Hazdrabal's goal is obviously to raise an enormous army and march through Gaul into Italy. And for the Romans, the supreme moment of peril comes in the spring of 215, which is the year after Canoi. And Hazrabal has raised an enormous task force and he leaves New Carthage and as Hannibal had done uh 3 years before he advances northwards at the head of this vast force and his aim is to cross the Pyrenees advance through Gaul and join his brother in Italy and if he's successful then Hannibal's forces will be doubled and it it is hard to see in the wake of Canai how the Romans then would have been able to carry on the fight. So this is really a crucial moment in the war.

So the two Scipios they are basically um standing in his way and they meet Hazel just south of the river Ebro outside a town called Ebera and this is actually one of the most significant battles in history arguably that nobody has ever heard of because as you say if if H hasel manages to cross the Alps join Hannibal in Italy that looks really dicey for the Romans. But what happens Tom at the battle of Eber? It's actually a Roman victory.

It is. The Roman infantry always with their strongest arm meet with the Carthaginian infantry and essentially wipe them out. Hazrabal is able to withdraw with his his cavalry. So it's not a total victory, but it is sufficient to abort Hazrabal's onward march to Italy. So there is a case for saying that this is the decisive moment of the war. Absolutely a candidate perhaps for the title of the most decisive battle in history that no one has ever heard of. However, as we say, it doesn't finish Hazel off because he has withdrawn with his his cavalry. And towards the end of that year, 215, he is joined in Iberia by a very very glamorous figure indeed. And this is Hazdrabel and therefore Hannibal's youngest brother. And this is a guy called Mo. And we talked about Mo in um our series about Hannibal's invasion.

Meo had accompanied Hannibal into Italy and he had done very well. So at the battle of Trebia, the first of Hannibal's great victories, people may remember the Carthaginian cavalry had hidden behind some bushes um and then sprung out and attacked the Romans in the rear and Mo had led them. So you know absolutely crucial part in that victory at Canai. He had stood next to his brother um in the most critical and vulnerable position in the Carthaginian line. So he's incredibly brave. He had then been sent by Hannibal to Carthage to announce the news of the great victory at Canai, which he had done very flamboyantly by bringing in an enormous sack full of the gold rings that had been taken from the slaughtered bigwigs in the Roman army. And he kind of empties the sack full of rings onto the floor of the Carthaginian Senate House.

Um, and everyone in the Senate is enormously impressed, even people who normally would be very hostile to the Barker brothers because they're kind of jealous and resentful of them. And the Carthaginian Senate decides, you know, we need to weigh in here. And so they have voted to raise more troops, so infantry, cavalry, elephants, and to pay for it. And these have now sailed from Carthage to New Carthage, and Hazdrabal's forces have now been swollen again. So to um recap, we now have a situation on the Iberian Peninsula in Spain where we have two rival armies, one Roman, one Carthaginian, led by two rival pairs of brothers. So this really does feel like sort of Frank Herbert's gone mad.

Yeah, exactly. People haven't yet started turning into sandworms, but it's very science fiction, isn't it?

Yeah. I mean, only in a science fiction epic or the second Punic War would you have a situation where you have two rival sets of brothers facing each other in a weird alien landscape. And basically, they're now pretty evenly matched. So, Calvis and Pablus, they succeed in blocking Hazrabal from leading reinforcements to Italy. You know, they feel that they're doing their job. But Mo, who is by far the ablest commander in Spain, he succeeds in keeping the native Iberians loyal to Carthage and blocking every attempt the Romans make to expand beyond their northern enclave. And finally in 211, the Scipio brothers think, "Ah, this is ridiculous. We've got to break out.

We've got to try and, you know, take the battle to the Carthaginians." And so they march southwards towards New Carthage, but it all goes horribly wrong. So, first Mego wipes out an army led by Pablius who was Scipio's father. And then a few days later, Hazrabel crushes the second Roman force which was being led by Calvis, Scipio's uncle. And both Pablus and Calvas are killed. And two factors in particular lie behind these twin defeats. And the first is the uh I mean we could call it the little big horn strategy that had been adopted by the two Roman commanders. They had essentially divided their forces, meaning that it then became easier for the Carthaginians to pick them off. But also another factor was the presence in the Carthaginian ranks of a brilliant young cavalry commander. And this is a guy we have already met. This is Masinissa, the Numidian who was so besotted by the god-like appearance of

the young Scipio. So at this point he is barely 20 but he's already very very seasoned. He'd already won a war on behalf of his father back in Africa against a rival Numidian king called Cifax who we will be hearing about later. So he's seen off Zifax. He's kept his his dad on the the on his throne in Numidia. And now he's arrived in in Spain at the head of 3,000 horsemen. Um and he is there to serve against the Romans. and he and his cavalry had played the leading role in harrying the Romans under the two Scipio brothers to their doom. And Libby records the details. Day and night he would cut off parties of Romans who were distant from their camp in search of wood or foder.

Often Masanisa would ride right up to the camp itself and charge at the gallop through the outposts guarding it, causing the most terrible confusion. So thanks to uh Hazrabal and Mgo and particularly to this swashbuckling Numidian prince Masinisa, it looks like the Carthaginian presence in Spain, of course, access to those crucial mines is secure. Because you would think but that if the Romans are fighting a life or death struggle with Hannibal in Italy on home territory, they will not be able to spare or to muster new forces to prosecute the war in Spain. And the question of course is even if they could, who on earth would they have left to send as their commander? Well, the answer is there surely in Masinisa. As Alex Ferguson would tell you in 1996, sometimes you have to um reach for the kids. And maybe this is what the Romans have to do now, isn't it, Tom? Because they are basically in the in the

position of what are they called? The Fman in Arachus in June. Tabby says, "Nice in the chat coming up in June." Yeah. So, um, as you say, the the Carthaginians have got their kind of dashing youth. Is it time that the Romans summon up a dashing youth of their own? Um, and if they're going to do that, who could this dashing youth possibly be? Um, where, Dominic, can they find a dune messiah? We'll be answering these questions after the break. Welcome back to Frank Herbert's Dune to the rest is history. It is 210 BC. We are in the city of Rome and amid the marble halls of Hollywood's imagination, a young man called Scipio, Pablius Cornelius Scipio, 25 years old. He's suspiciously clean shaven, even more suspiciously long-haired. There's talk that he has been fathered by a snake.

And this young man has just been elected by public vote to command of the Roman armies in Iberia in Spain. Now Tom, I said elected by public vote. This is unusual, isn't it? Cuz isn't normally the Senate that appoints commanders rather than the Roman people. Yeah, it's very unusual because, as you say, it it the Senate is very jealous of its prerogative. It the Senate has the right to appoint commanders. What are the people doing poking their noses into, you know, this important business? Because it is taken for granted that commanders should be elected magistrates. But Scipio is not an elected magistrate. He is a a privatus, a private citizen. And it is also the Roman custom to put a premium on experience. They tend to regard youth not as something dashing, but as something potentially sinister. Uh that a Roman commander who is under the age of 40 is generally assumed to be kind of impulsive and headstrong and rash. So

listeners may therefore be wondering, well, how on earth did the 25-year-old Scipio, you know, this private citizen, how on earth did he manage to get this command? I mean, it's undoubtedly the case that the people adore him. He's glamorous, he's dashing, he provides them with, you know, a touch of color amid the kind of monochrome grind of the war against Hannibal. And although at the same time, although lots of people in the Senate are indeed suspicious of him, I think there are also lots of them that can recognize the advantages of sending him specifically to Spain because remember, he is the son of one of the commanders who'd been in Spain and he is the nephew of another of those commanders. So the name of Scipio in Iberia has a real cache and I think that even in the Senate there are people who feel well we would be mad not to capitalize on this. The issue for them is they don't want to be seen to be

appointing a 25year-old that if they do it would establish a sinister president and so that's where the the you know the popular vote comes in. they can get the people to vote for him and essentially they're kind of washing hands of the responsibility. So Scipio he gets his command. He leaves Rome. He arrives in Spain and the situation that he finds waiting for him is a very very rocky one. So obviously the Romans have lost two major battles. So their numbers um in their kind of enclave in the northwest of Spain are badly depleted. the Iberian tribes, you know, they're busy cleaning their teeth with urine, sharpening their stabbing swords, all of that. These are people who only really respect success. And this in turn means that now the Romans have been so comprehensively defeated by the Carthaginians. They are much likelier to swing Carthaginian wise. And this obviously is brilliant for the

Carthaginian commanders because their numbers have now swollen and they are able to put three armies in the field. So there is one under Hazrabal, Hannibal's younger brother, which is stationed in central Spain near what's what would today be the city of Toledo. There's another under Mgo who is Hannibal's youngest brother near the pillars of Hercules, what what today is Dibralta. And there is a third army by the mouth of the Teagus. So that is dominate your favorite city, Lisbon.

I love Lisbon. So the Carthaginians are not thinking about they don't think they're going to be having to fight a defensive war to maintain their their foothold in Spain. They actually are thinking about expanding their empire as it were. They want to conquer northern Spain. They want to get more manpower. They want to get more mines, more natural resources. And once they've done that, they think, right, we'll finish with the Iberian Peninsula. And then Hazrabal can lead a task force into you know through southern France across the Alps into Italy as we have been hoping to do for so long.

That as always is their prime goal. Yeah. Yeah. So actually that winter the Carthaginians do not retire to their base at New Carthage but they remain in their forward bases cuz they are on the front foot. It's they believe who are prosecuting the war.

Yes. And it's clear as well that they regard Scipio with contempt. They haven't factored him into this at all. They feel that the Romans have been beaten and this is you know and their focus now is essentially as you say on conquering the remaining Iberian tribes. But this is going to prove a very very serious mistake because the young Scipio has arrived to take up his command with a very very bold plan in his head indeed. And so that spring, his first, you know, it's his first campaigning season in Spain. He musters every last soldier that he has, and it comes to about 20,000 infantry, 2 and a half thousand cavalry, and he heads south along the coast as his father and uncle had done the previous year. And as he goes, he is shadowed by the Roman fleet.

And this is commanded by um his closest friend, a guy called Gas Lus. And Lias is the only other person in the task force who knows where they are heading. The only person that Scipio has entrusted with his brilliant plan. So southwards they march along the road on and on and on and finally a week after they've left. So on the seventh day they arrive before their destination. And this destination Dominic is the great city of New Carthage. It's obviously an incredibly bold strategy. It's been fostered by the fact that Scipio knows that the Carthaginian armies are at least 10 days march away and that the garrison that has been left in New Carthage is basically only about a thousand strong. But even so, we've said how, you know, it has these kind of bristling fortifications. It's a very very strong city. I mean, it's a big big ask to take it. And I think that Scipio's men when they realize the job

that their young general has set them know they feel a bit alarmed. They think, "Oh god, actually, you know, everybody says about young commanders is true. They are rash. They are headstrong. They do come up with mad ideas." But Scipio summons his men and he addresses them and he appears sublimely self-confident. And he tells them, "It is the god Neptune who first suggested this plan to me." So he's now moved on from talking to Jupiter. He's talking to Neptune, the god of the sea. He appeared to me in a dream and has promised to show his support for us by means of a spectacular sign.

Well, to be fair, this is very, you compared with Alexander the Great, this is the kind of stuff that Alexander the Great would come out with. And people would say, "Hurrah, yeah, I completely believe this. Let's do it." And actually, you know, it's a good comparison. What happens immediately is that Lias, the naval commander, you know, he he assembles his ships and they surround the harbor, blocking off access, and the main body of Scipio's men launch a massive frontal assault on the city walls. And the defenders are entirely focused on resisting this.

Meanwhile, Scipio has recruited a crack squad of elite handpicked men, and he takes them on a secret mission because north of the city there stretches a lagoon. And because the waters are normally so deep and because every defender in New Carthage is required to stave off this kind of main Roman assault, the walls that rise above the lagoon are unguarded because they assume that well no one will be able to cross the lagoon. So Scipio arrives with his uh crack squad of elite handpicked men on the shores of the lagoon and they look out and there it is. And then beyond the lagoon are the northern walls of New Carthage. And as they gaze at the walls, there is a palpable miracle because a heron lands and stands in the water. And this reveals to the Romans that the waters are ebbing.

You say a miracle, but isn't that pretty standard with waters that they eb and flow?

It turns out that this is in fact a a regular phenomenon that it happens every so often.

Does it not happen every day? It's not a regular tide, but but every so often the tide does go out. Okay? And Scipio has has been informed about this and he's worked out that this is the moment when he needs to be there. But obviously he doesn't tell this to his men and they all assume that this is the sign from Neptune that Scipio had promised them. And so they weighed in through the shallows, reach the base of the walls, they've brought ladders with them, they put them up against the uh against the walls, they climb over and there is no one to stop them. And now they can rush forward. They can open the gates of the city. the Romans um who've been doing the full frontal assault can pile in as well. And there is unbelievable slaughter.

And we know this because Palibius, this Greek historian, he goes on to interview Lias, um who is Scipio's friend who'd been in command of the fleet, and he revealed just how brutal the slaughter had been. So to quote Palibius, the practice of the Romans is to inspire terror. And so when they capture a city, you will often see not just the corpses of human beings, but dogs cut in half and the dismembered limbs of other animals. And Lius specifies to Bolivia that this is what was happening in New Carthage after the Romans had got in.

And so unsurprisingly, the Carthaginian commander seeing the horror realizing that he has no prospect of keeping the city, he duly surrenders. And so the slaughter stops and New Carthage, unbelievably, is Scipios. He has seized the great nerve center of the Carthaginian Empire. I mean an amazing coup.

So this is an extraordinary moment because what this has done is it means that um the Romans now have the wealth of New Carthage. They have the supplies. They have the resources. They have the harbor. So they have a wonderful link now with the sea. And Scipio begin immediately turns it into what Palibius calls workshop of war, doesn't he? So he starts to um recruit troops. He's drilling them. He's kind of endlessly schooling them in kind of the the tactics they will need that he has learned from Hannibal. Um he's making weapons and the PR, the propaganda effects of this perhaps the most crucial element because basically this is sending a message to the people of the Iberian Peninsula. The Romans are back and they're here in a big way and they are the winners now.

Yeah. And the Iberians love a winner. So by the spring of 208 knows he's got a massive crisis on his hands because he's lost his capital but he is now increasingly losing the loyalty of all these kind of various Iberian warlords who are thinking well Scipio is a winner. Let's let's let's back him. Um and a whole posy of warlords by the spring of 208 have decided that they are actively going to back the Romans. And so again to quote Palibius, they all prostrated themselves before Scipio and hailed him as king. Of course the word king is a very dirty word to the Romans. They are a republic.

They don't like kings. But Scipio accepts that you know the name has a kind of glamour that will help his cause and so he you know he he accepts it which in the in the long run won't go down well in Rome but you know needs must.

So the issue now for Hazdrabal his rival. Hazrabal knows that basically the entire war hinges on this, right? Because Carthage really really needs Spain to continue being at their top table of um international kind of superpower rivalry.

Well, and more than that, if they lose Spain, then there's no way that Hannibal can win in Italy because if supplies and troops from Spain cannot reach Italy, then in the long run, Hannibal will lose.

So, do you think Hazel at this point is thinking, "Right, well, I need to really force the issue. Let's get this over and done with now because having lost New Carthage, I can't hang around. So, this is why he basically rolls the dice and says, "Right, we'll go for Italy right now. We will march there with the expeditionary force to give my brother the reinforcements he needs and let's finish this." Yes. And so, it is obvious to both sides that this is the great fulcrum point of the whole war. This is the moment of supreme crisis. Everything hangs on what happens next. So obviously the Romans are desperate to stop Hastribbal. The best way for them to stop Hazrabal joining up with Hannibal is to prevent him leaving Iberia at all. So early that summer, Scipio advances into the the depths of Iberia. He attacks Hazdrabal's base and he manages to inflict serious casualties, but he can't prevent

Hazrabal from doing a a withdrawal from his base. and nor over the next few months can he prevent Hazdrabul from rebuilding his army. And by the winter of 208, Hazdrabel has advanced through Spain over the Pyrenees and has arrived in southern Gaul where he is wintering. And wintering in southern Gaul gives him the opportunity to recruit lots of warriors from Gaul. The ghouls hate the Romans. This is what Hannibal had done when he'd gone. So his army is now really substantial. And come spring the next year, so the campaigning season, he leads his army complete with 10 elephants over the Alps. And people may be wondering, well, we hear all about Hannibal crossing the Alps. We never hear about Hastriel crossing the Alps. What's going on? I mean, the reason is is that he, you know, he does it expertly. He does it with incredible competence. And I think essentially the reason that we remember Hannibal's

crossing is that he doesn't do it nearly as competently as Hazrial did. Anyway, so Hazdrabel descends from the Alps. He arrives in northern Italy, and the Romans worst nightmare has happened. There are now two huge armies, each one led by a Barker brother in their backyard. There are two consoles in Rome who have the job of stopping these two brothers. And one is in the north. He has uh six legions and he's got to stop Hazel. And then there's one in the south with seven legions who's meant to be bottling up uh Hannibal. So the guy in charge of the Northern Legions, I read in your notes, Tom, he is called Marcus Livius Salintor and he is, and I quote from your notes, a gloomy eccentric with terrible personal hygiene. I assume that all eccentrics have bad personal hygiene.

How does his poor personal hygiene manifest itself, would you say? He's feeling very hard done by. And so as a protest, he has refused to wash or cut his hair. Um, and so he's notorious for his his body odor.

That's no way to inspire your men. And what about the guy in the south? So the guy in the south is a member of the Claudian dynasty, one of the oldest and most prestigious dynasties. So he's called Gas Claudius Nero, and he is he's beautifully groomed, is he? Yeah. Not not not a hint of body odor. These two BS perhaps because of their dispute about grooming um despise each other. They absolutely loathe each other. And so this is obviously a potential worry. I mean, will they be able to team up? But in the event the contacts that exist between these two two consoles turn out to be much more secure than the communication links between Hazdrabal and Hannibal. So Hazdribal obviously is desperate to rendevu with his elder brother and find a point where they can kind of meet up and combine their forces. And so he inevitably you know who you going to turn to when you want to deliver a message obviously in

Numidians. So he gets a bunch of Numidians, um, supplements them with a few ghouls, writes out a message, and this this message is meet in Umbria, and he sends the, uh, the Numidians and Ghouls off. And why Umbria? Well, this was the region where Hannibal had won at Lake Trazamine. It's in northern Italy. It's on the way from the foothills of the Alps towards Rome. And this suggests that the Carthaginian plan was for the two brothers once they had met up to march directly on the capital and force the Romans to face them in battle because up to this point the Romans of course had been avoiding meeting Hannibal in battle. And I think that that you know the aim is we will stake everything on a single throw. But obviously for this to happen's message has to reach Hannibal. And the problem is that it doesn't because it falls into the hands of Nero, the beautifully groomed Claudian console whose job it is to bottle up Hannibal in

the south. And when he gets this message and reads it, he reacts as Hannibal would have done in his sandals with boldness and with an incredible display of initiative. So what Nero does is to trick Hannibal into thinking that he is still with his legions. He does this while he is simultaneously siphoning off a very substantial body of infantry. And he then marches with this body of infantry at incredible speed northwards towards where Salinator is refusing to have a wash. And as he marches, he is he is joined along the way by enthusiastic volunteers. So that by the time he reaches Salinator's camp on the 22nd of June, you know, he he is bringing a very very large body of men to join the six legions under Salinator's camp. And Hazrabel has no idea at all that Nero has arrived until he hears in the morning not the one blast of the trumpet that signals the presence of a console but two.

And this indicates to him that there are two consoles with their armies facing him. And you can imagine I mean his heart his heart must have turned to ice. And so he thinks, "Oh god, this is terrible. I can't, you know, I'm going to be annihilated if I meet them." And so he tries to withdraw, but he has a problem because his line of retreat is blocked by a river called the Mataras. And so he leads his men. They're kind of stumbling through the marshy banks of the Mataras trying to find a foring place. And as they're doing this, they're set upon by the Romans. And the battle is lost almost before it had begun. Now, it's true that the defeat was actually, I mean, it wasn't total.

Had Hastriel survived, had he been able to lead his men and cross the Mataros and withdraw to the foothills of the Alps, I mean, he would entirely have been able to carry on the fight, but Hazrial dies in the thick of the fighting. I mean, he's very brave, but I think he's a bit stupid to have done that. Um, Palibius says that he he displayed in his death a fortitude and an ability of spirit worthy of his family name. But I don't think he he he displayed the shrewdness that Hannibal would have done in his situation because his plunging into the thick of the melee essentially dooms his army and therefore in the long run as we will see dooms Hannibal. Now when Hannibal had defeated the Romans at Canai, uh they had killed one of the commanders, a guy called Imelius Powus and Hannibal had shown the corpse of of Powus great respect. You know, he had not desecrated it. Nero and Salinator, when they find the body of

Hazdribal, do not show it a matching respect. They um cut off its head and they put Hazdribal's head into a sack and then they give it to a horseman. And this horseman gallops southwards, reaches the outposts that surround Hannibal's camp, gallops up to one of these outposts, hurls the sack at the feet of Hannibal's guards in this outpost, turns, wheels, and gallops away. And the sack is brought to Hannibal. And Hannibal opens it and he pulls out the severed head of his brother. And we are told that he mourns his brother, but that staring into his dead brother's features, he also mourns his city. And he cries out, we're told, "Now at last I see the doom of Carthage plane." This is the moment, I think, when Hannibal knows that probably the game is up,

but not quite up because, okay, he's not going to be getting reinforcements from Iberia, but the Romans are still, they're so uh wary of his enormous military reputation. They don't confront him in open battle. So, he actually now heads even further south, doesn't he? Away from Rome into the heel of Italy into what's called Brutium. And that's the area that he can hold most easily if the Romans are coming after him. He also of course does have a brother left. He has Mo back in um in Spain. And if you're Hannibal, you are probably thinking, well, if Mogo can defeat Scipio in Spain, if he can win back the loyalty of the Iberians who've gone over to the Romans. If may, who knows? Maybe Mogo can recapture New Carthage. Maybe he can raise a new army. maybe he can send reinforcements to Italy. So quite a lot of ifs.

Yeah, there's a lot of ifs in any war. Unfortunately, not all of these ifs work out to um Hannibal's advantage, do they?

I mean, we said Mego is a very good general. He's very, very dashing and very competent. I mean, his problem is for the first time he is facing a Roman general who, you know, essentially is as able and inventive as Hannibal himself. And Scipio essentially is going to crush all Hannibal's hopes because he is going to demolish the Carthaginian Empire in Spain. So in the spring of of 206, he has cornered Mo at a place called Ilipa, which is north of what's now Seville, and they meet in battle. And alongside Mago is Masanissa, who's no longer a prince by this point, but a king, because his um his father died a few months before. And so he is now the leader of this kind of federation of Numidian tribes called the Mulians. So he is you know I mean he's now a very very big player for the Carthaginians.

Not just a great commander but an allied king. And so Mo and Masinissa I mean they must have been hopeful that they would be able to defeat Scipio. Meo would back himself. Uh he knows that the Romans have always been kind of powerless against the Numidians. But no doesn't turn out at all. actually they find the battle that um Scipio now forces on them I mean to put it mildly a very very bruising experience. So first Masanissa's Numidian horsemen you know these great great cavalrymen they're swatted aside by Scipio's cavalry. So people will remember that uh when Scipio captured New Carthage he'd insisted on lots of drill lots of practice.

Yes. And this is now paying off because essentially he has transformed his cavalry into the best horsemen that Rome has ever had. And they just, you know, they they swat Masanisa and his horsemen aside. There's then a stalemate, but one day passes, another day passes, another day passes. Mo's concentration drops and this is the moment when Scipio attacks. And Mo, who we said had been, you know, he's a veteran of Cannai, he'd stood in the lines alongside Hannibal. He now finds that he is the one who is being outflanked and enveloped by a smaller army. And Scipio has the winning of the battle. And although both Mogo and Masinissa are able to escape the slaughter, Mo's army, which was the last effective force left him in Iberia, is wiped out. I mean, to give Me credit, he still doesn't give up. So, first of all, he he tries to do a Scipio and launch an attack on New Carthage. In his case, it

doesn't work. He gets beaten off. He then sails away. He finds um a a new naval base on the island of Morca um in the Balierics which to this day bears his name uh Mahon. Um and this apparently is where mayonnaise was invented. So um so in a way mayonnaise is named after Mgo. I think it's the only um popular condiment. It's a condiment really. I was just thinking is it a condiment? Well, if it's not a condiment I don't know what it is. It's not a sauce is it? It can be used as both, but it's mic mayonnaise is more than it's it contains multitudes.

It's something you'd have in your fridge. Um, and it's probably the only thing you'd have in a fridge that's named after a Carthaginian general. So, it's kind of interesting detail. Anyway, so he he's still on the scene. Um, and then in 205 he launches a very um ambitious invasion of northern Italy. You know, he takes ships, he takes men, he captures Genoa. So, that's quite a feat. And he manages to hold out there against the Romans for three years. There's an indecisive battle. He gets wounded. The Carthaginians summon him back to his home city and on the trip he dies. So an energetic end and but that's the end of Mogo. And what about Masanissa? Well, for him the days of fighting the Romans are now over because this is the moment in the wake of Scipio's great victory at that he makes contact with the Roman victor and the result is the meeting described by Libby. the homoerotic summit with which

we began this episode because Masinissa is basically like the Iberians. I mean, he has no interest in fighting for a losing side. And it's very clear to him by this point that the Carthaginians have no future whatsoever in Iberia. And so he, you know, contacts Scipio. They get on tremendously well. And with Scipio's blessing, he returns to Africa there to secure his rule as king because this other rival king, Cifax, is still on the scene. So he needs to sort that out. And Scipio by sending Masanissa, now a Roman ally, to Africa, is obviously looking ahead because the only way that the war ultimately can be ended is if the Romans can take the war to Carthage itself. And in late 206, Scipio returns to Rome, doesn't he? And he is now a real star. He's had tremendous achievements in the battlefield. He's glamorous. Uh he's charismatic. He's got his exciting long hair. And he is determined to win the

prize that will confirm all this which is the console ship. Yeah. Even though he's only 30 and legally you have to be 40 to become a console. So he gets the console ship and he is allocated province uh a very rich strategically important province that will be his once he has finished his consil ship and that is Sicily and the command in Sicily comes not just with boots on the ground i.e. the legions but it comes with a fleet of 30 warships. So this is what he needs. And on top of that, Dominic, crucially, he is given permission by the Senate, and I quote, to cross to Africa if he judged it to be in the interests of the Republic. But the big question, will Scipio judge it to be in the interests of the Republic? To cross the sea, to invade Africa, and to attack the Carthaginians in their very backyard.

There is only one way to find out. So, if you're a member of the rest is history club and you want to find out whether Scipio will indeed cross to Africa and launch the final assault on the Carthaginians, you can find out right now because if you're a member of that club, you can hear episode three and indeed episode four of this series instantaneously. If you're not a member of the club, you'll have to wait gnoring at your nails like Gordon Brown in the aftermath of the financial crisis. But either way, the Punic Wars will continue and they will reach a devastating, hearttoppping climax. Tom, thank you very much. Goodbye everybody. Bye-bye.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "The Hero Who Saved Rome In Its Darkest Hour | EP 2"?

Dominic Sandbrook (Host), Tom Holland (Host), Pablius Cornelius Scipio (Guest), Masinissa (Guest), Hannibal Barca (Guest).

What is "The Hero Who Saved Rome In Its Darkest Hour | EP 2" about?

The discussion focuses on Publius Cornelius Scipio, a pivotal Roman general during the darkest days of the Roman Republic when Hannibal's Carthaginian forces threatened its existence. It highlights Scipio's impressive character and leadership, as well as the critical meeting in 206 BC that would set the stage for Rome's resurgence against Carthage.

What is mentioned in this The Rest Is History episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Pablius Cornelius Scipio, Carthage, New Carthage, Iberia, Gas Claudius Nero, Alexander the Great. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Hero Who Saved Rome In Its Darkest Hour | EP 2"?

The episode runs 54 min; the transcript is about 9,358 words in 79 timestamped sections.

More from The Rest Is History

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 5, 2026.