Transcript

Would Britain Have Beaten an Invasion in 1940?

From The Rest Is History · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 8 min · 12,235 words · 141 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Would Britain Have Beaten an Invasion in 1940?", an episode of The Rest Is History published December 6, 2025 (1 h 8 min, about 12,235 words). It mentions 253 people, works and ideas, including Britain, Adolf Hitler, Operation Barbarossa, Germany, Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill.

What this episode is about

The content examines Britain's precarious position during the Battle of Britain in 1940, analyzing the potential consequences of a successful German invasion through the German perspective. It emphasizes the existential stakes of the battle for Britain, European freedom, and the future of civilization.

Key takeaways

  • Britain's finest hour arose not from victory, but weathering a storm of unprecedented peril.
  • Hive: turning sunny salvation into your personal power surge, because Britain's past isn't your energy future.
  • Hitler's biggest misstep: failing to break Britain, ironically lighting the path to Soviet betrayal.
  • Silk stockings and Cointreau: morale fuel for Germans, reminding us conquest is often wired in luxury.
  • The glamour of Paris plunder briefly soothed Germany, shadowed by wartime desolation creeping closer.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Britain, Adolf Hitler, Germany, France
  2. – 20:00: Adolf Hitler, Britain, French, Germany
  3. – 30:00: Adolf Hitler, Britain, United States (states), Germany
  4. – 40:00: Britain, Adolf Hitler, Germany, Matthew Dominic
  5. – 50:00: Britain, Battle of Britain, Battle of Britain, Germany
  6. – 1:00:00: Adolf Hitler, Britain, The Blitz, The Blitz
  7. – 1:07:54: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Franco, Ukraine

Notable quotes from "Would Britain Have Beaten an Invasion in 1940?"

  • But we will be looking at this story through the eyes of the Germans.
    about Britain · at
  • Hitler knows that he will have to break out in this island or lose the war.
    about Adolf Hitler · at
  • Ended last time with Hitler coming home to Berlin in triumph, having to the conquered city of Paris. And among the ordinary people of Berlin, morale is now very high. they had…
    about Germany · at
  • And also the man running the luftvafer is an extremely unreliable man who's more interested in like hunting trophies and looted art and eating. And that's Herman Guring. And I think it is.
    about Luftwaffe · at
  • That a bit later. Let's just give this British invasion a chance. Let's start the air attack now. If Gurring has been telling me the truth and the Luftvafa is as good as he says, then we're laughing.
    about The Luftwaffe · at
  • Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. It will astound listeners to learn that was Winston Churchill again speaking in the House Commons on the.
    about Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill · at
  • German factories are. They're building them so quickly that in early September, despite their losses, the RAF actually have more planes than they did in late August. they're…
    about RAF · at
  • It'll be so much easier than fighting the British. What's not to like? And so it is that on the 18th of December 1940, Hitler issues one of the most fateful orders in history.…
    about Operation Barbarossa · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Adolf Hitler — Person · Main antagonist · 58 mentions · first at
    Central figure in the discussion of Nazi Germany's strategies and decisions during WWII
  • Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill — Person · Referenced leader / primary historical speaker · 4 mentions · first at
    Quoted and discussed as Britain's wartime Prime Minister whose speeches ('their finest hour' / 'Never in the field... so few') frame British resolve against Nazi Germany.
  • Hermann Göring — Person · Referenced military commander (Luftwaffe) · 2 mentions · first at
    Presented as the unreliable head of the Luftwaffe whose overconfidence and shifting tactics contribute to German failure to gain air superiority—undermining Sea Lion.
    That a bit later. Let's just give this British invasion a chance. Let's start the air attack now. If Gurring has been telling me the truth and the Luftvafa is as good as he says, then we're laughing.
  • Matthew Dominic — Person · Co-host / primary narrator (in-episode explainer) · 8 mentions · first at
    Dominic provides the main historical exposition: German strategic debates, internal Nazi rivalries, intelligence failures, and the causal chain from Britain’s survival to the decision for Barbarossa.
    But we will be looking at this story through the eyes of the Germans.
  • Joseph Stalin — Person · Key historical figure · 6 mentions · first at
    Soviet leader during WWII, mentioned in the context of Nazi Germany's strategic decisions
    Takes the catastrophic decision to launch his biggest gamble of all which is the betrayal of Stalin with whom he'd signed a pact. His decision to turn east and launch the…
  • Herman Guring — Person · Referenced senior Nazi leader / Luftwaffe commander · 4 mentions · first at
    Discussed as the unreliable head of the Luftwaffe whose boasts and shifting tactics fail to deliver air superiority, undermining Sea Lion and shaping Hitler’s strategic pivot.
    Guring has been promoted to Reich's Marshall. So, he's wearing an even more extravagant uniform than ever. great beam over his massive face. Hitler gives this speech and apparently he's on.
  • Outdoor Tom — Person · Co-host (in-episode interlocutor) · 3 mentions · first at
    One of the two presenters driving the discussion; asks questions that structure the narrative (plundering, invasion feasibility, Luftwaffe, morale, strategy). Identity is only given as first name in transcript.
    Expensive French drinks, the fruits of conquest. Tom, so Dominic, can I just ask how much plundering was there?
  • Dominic Sandbrook — Person · Co-host · 2 mentions · first at
    Co-presents the episode; provides the main narrative arc and analysis of German decision-making, propaganda effects, and the shift from Sea Lion to Barbarossa.
    Union. And that all flows from his inability to break Britain in the summer of 1940 as we will discuss. So, let's return to Germany in midsummer 1940. We ended last time with…
  • Tom Holland — Person · Podcast co-host · 2 mentions · first at
    One of the two presenters guiding the narrative and questioning/structuring the discussion of German strategy and the Battle of Britain.
    But we will be looking at this story through the eyes of the Germans.
  • General France Halder — Person · Referenced German military planner / diarist source · 1 mention · first at
    Cited for his notes/observations on Hitler’s confusion and strategic logic (Britain holding out due to hope in Russia), and for meetings where the USSR invasion becomes central.
    Side of the Atlantic. So then Hitler receives the Vermach chief of staff, General France Halder. Halder was the bloke, the kind of clipped guy with glasses who was trying to get rid of Hitler in episode one of this little bit of the series.
  • Hermann Goering — Person · Referenced military commander (Luftwaffe) and strategic foil · 1 mention · first at
    Depicted as unreliable and self-indulgent; his overconfidence and shifting tactics are used to explain Luftwaffe failures and the collapse of Sea Lion’s prerequisites.
    That a bit later. Let's just give this British invasion a chance. Let's start the air attack now. If Gurring has been telling me the truth and the Luftvafa is as good as he says, then we're laughing.
  • Lord Halifax — Person · Referenced British political figure (alternative peace leader) · 3 mentions · first at
    Halifax is discussed as someone Hitler hoped might replace Churchill and negotiate; his BBC speech rejecting a deal is used as evidence Britain will not compromise.
    These days, but if you read the speech, I've read the transcript of the speech, it's pretty stirring stuff. Halifax says, We realize that the struggle may cost us everything…
  • Edward VII — Person · Misidentified/ambiguous reference (likely Edward VIII, Duke of Windsor) · 3 mentions · first at
    In the transcript, ‘Edward VII’ is discussed as having abdicated due to Wallace Simpson and being the Duke of Windsor—this matches Edward VIII, not Edward VII. The episode uses him as a potential Nazi puppet king in a kidnapping plot.
    Columnist to do your job for you. Now, while he's at his lair, Hitler says to his cronies, God, I wish I'd worked harder to win over Edward VII when he was king, and he's also…
  • Benito Mussolini — Person · Referenced Axis leader · 3 mentions · first at
    Italian dictator whose strategic priorities (Balkans) complicated Hitler's Mediterranean options; used to show diplomatic friction among Axis powers.
    Maybe Turkey. And Hitler's quite interested in this and then he has a series of disastrous meetings. So first of all with Mussolini, Mini is more interested in the Balkans.
  • Marshall Pétain — Person · Referenced French leader (mis-transcription of Pétain) · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as taking over as French prime minister and seeking an armistice—this refers to Marshal Philippe Pétain in June 1940; the entity string is likely a transcription error.
    The situation is still very bleak. The day before Churchill gave that speech, Marshall Petar had taken over as prime minister of France.
  • Eleanor Roosevelt — Person · Referenced foreign leader · 2 mentions · first at
    U.S. President (Franklin D. Roosevelt) referenced in context of American isolationism/election-year politics influencing Hitler's strategic window.
    So, here's the thing. I think Hitler knows that the Americans are a factor, but it's an election year. Roosevelt is facing re-election in a in an isolationist country, and…
  • Marshall Petar — Person · Mis-transcribed reference to Philippe Pétain · 1 mention · first at
    Key to the France armistice context: his taking power and seeking an armistice frames Britain’s isolation and Churchill’s ‘Finest Hour’ moment.
    The situation is still very bleak. The day before Churchill gave that speech, Marshall Petar had taken over as prime minister of France.
  • General von Rader — Person · Referenced naval commander advising on invasion feasibility (misrecognized name) · 1 mention · first at
    Discussed as the naval chief warning about the weakness of German naval forces in the Channel and the impracticality/timing of Sea Lion; transcript’s “von Rader/Raider” refers to Erich Raeder.
    The Bluka got blown up by the Norwegians very heroically. Well done, the Norwegians. So, Raider has three cruisers and four destroyers that he can call on in the channel. And…
  • Adolf Galland — Person · Referenced Luftwaffe ace · 1 mention · first at
    Named as one of the German fighter aces (used to illustrate the Luftwaffe's cult of aces and personalities of pilots).
    The Lufafa much more than the RAF encouraged the cult of aces. We don't really think of aces as being a World War II thing. It's a World War I thing for us. But the Lufafa there these guys.
  • Dave Franco — Person · Referenced foreign leader (Spain) in Axis diplomacy context · 1 mention · first at
    Appears in the episode’s account of Hitler’s failed attempts to broaden strategy via Spain; the tense meeting underscores Germany’s limited options after failing to break Britain.
    Hitler has very little to offer Franco, but Franco has turned up with a massive wish list of like food supplies and arms supplies and all this. Hitler has never met Franco before and he finds Franco a very objectionable man. As Ian.
  • Franco — Person · Referenced foreign leader · 6 mentions · first at
    Spanish dictator whose refusal/reluctance to enter the war and whose demands frustrated Hitler's Mediterranean/Atlantic plans; meeting with Hitler discussed to illustrate diplomatic setbacks.
    Shelonburgg and says, I want you to do a job for me. Basically, I want you to lure them across the border into Franco, Spain. And then this is how it will work. Edward and…
  • Emma Chamberlain — Person · Referenced politician (preceding PM) · 3 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in discussion about pre-war British policy (appeasement) and contributions to British aircraft production acceleration prior to the Battle of Britain.
    1940, it's the British one, the most scientific, the most technologically advanced, all of this. Now, some of this is actually down to Neville Chamberlain.
  • Oswald Mosley — Person · Referenced British fascist (potential collaborator figure) · 3 mentions · first at
    Used as an example of a possible ‘Quisling’ style collaborator Hitler might hope for in Britain; noted as under arrest in 1940.
    His cronies, God, I wish I'd worked harder to win over Edward VII when he was king, and he's also muttering about Oswald Mosley. Mosley's under arrest at this point, the leader…
  • General Petain — Person · Referenced French leader (armistice/Vichy) · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as the French figurehead associated with the armistice and Vichy stance; used as a comparison point for a hypothetical British ‘Pétain’ figure.
    The situation is still very bleak. The day before Churchill gave that speech, Marshall Petar had taken over as prime minister of France.
  • Edward VIII — Person · Referenced potential puppet/fifth columnist · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in the Ribbentrop / crown plot context as a possible figure for German exploitation (Duke of Windsor), illustrating German plans to use British figures to split opinion.
    Somebody who really likes the idea of using him is the top German sparkling wine salesman Yo Kim von Ribbon Trop Britain and now foreign minister one of the.
  • David Lloyd George — Person · Referenced politician / hypothetical British accommodation figure · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as an example of a British figure the Germans speculated might replace Churchill in making a deal — used in counterfactual discussion.
    And try to fight me, you'll probably lose your empire. Spoiler alert, that's exactly what happens. He thinks, well, obviously the British would only care about their empire.…
  • Wallace Simpson — Person · Referenced (partner of Edward VIII) · 2 mentions · first at
    Associated with Edward VIII; referenced in the plot to use the Duke of Windsor as a puppet and as part of the abdication context.
    Idea of Edward VII, who is now, of course, has abdicated because of his relationship with Wallace Simpson, and he's become the Duke of Windsor.
  • H.G. Wells — Person · Referenced intellectual targeted in Nazi arrest planning · 1 mention · first at
    Appears in discussion of German occupation preparations (arrest lists), illustrating the ideological targeting of prominent British writers and public figures in hypothetical invasion plans.
    You detect the hand of Ribbonrop in that malevolent plan. Well, well, also there's a mad list of 2,800 people who are going to be arrested and details of which bit of the Nazi…
  • Vernon Molders — Person · Referenced Luftwaffe ace · 1 mention · first at
    Named as an example of a German ace (Vernon 'Molders' / likely Vernon 'Mölders') to illustrate Luftwaffe personalities and cult of aces.
    War II thing. It's a World War I thing for us. But the Lufafa there these guys there's a guy called Adolf Galland and there a guy called Vernon Moulders and they both recorded…
  • Fedor vonBach — Person · Referenced German officer (likely misidentified; unclear) · 2 mentions · first at
    Cited as a ‘formerly general, now Field Marshall’ to whom Hitler explains Britain will quit once Russia is beaten; the name does not cleanly match a well-known WWII German field marshal, suggesting transcript/NER confusion.
    As he tells formerly general, now Field Marshall Fedor vonBach, the gentlemen in England aren't stupid. they will realize there's no point in carrying on the war once Russia has been.
  • H.G. Wells — Person · Referenced cultural figure (on Nazi arrest list) · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as one of the notable Britons slated for arrest in German occupation planning documents, illustrating the breadth of intended repression beyond politicians.
    You detect the hand of Ribbonrop in that malevolent plan. Well, well, also there's a mad list of 2,800 people who are going to be arrested and details of which bit of the Nazi…
  • Nevelle Chamberlain — Person · Possible duplicate / mis-extraction of Neville Chamberlain · 3 mentions · first at
    Appears to be an extraction variant of Neville Chamberlain; context in transcript pertains to Neville Chamberlain (pre-war PM).
    And they will turn to a Lord Halifax or a David Lloyd George or even maybe bring back Neville Chamberlain and they will do a deal with Hitler. It's often said that David Lloyd…
  • General Maxim Veon — Person · Misheard/unclear reference (likely a quoted authority for ‘Battle of France is over’) · 1 mention · first at
    Appears only in the opening quotation (“What General Veon called the Battle of France is over”), but the identity is unclear from transcript alone; likely a transcription error or mishearing of a known figure.
    What General Veon called the Battle of France is over.
  • Franz Halder — Person · 89 mentions
  • Grand Admiral Erich Raeder — Person · 16 mentions
  • Edward VIII — Person · 8 mentions
  • Joseph Goebbels — Person · 5 mentions
  • Walter Schellenberg — Person · 4 mentions
  • William Shirer — Person · 4 mentions
  • Wallis Simpson — Person · 3 mentions

Books & papers

  • The War in the West — Book · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at
    Book referenced in the discussion about the Battle of Britain and WWII.
    Fighting a war and now think they are winning and indeed now think they've effectively won it. I remember in my brother's book, The War in the West, which I've been quoting a…
  • Dad's Army — Book · 2 mentions · first at
    Exactly. We should have called out the sea fencables. Well, you described them as the kind of dad's army of the Napoleon wars, didn't you?
  • We Have Ways of Making You Talk — Book · 2 mentions · first at
    It's a fraternal show. and it's called We Have Ways of Making You Talk.
  • Star Wars — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Tend to think of the Lufafa as a bit like those kind of enemy ships in Star Wars full of you know tie fighters, interchangeable baddies in mad uniforms.
  • Britain's War Machine — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Industrial power that they are much more proficient at that. You must have read David Edgton's book Britain's War Machine. this kind of revelatory book about just how good at…
  • Götterdämmerung — Book · 1 mention
  • Raiders of the Lost Ark — Book · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

  • RAF — Company · Core topic (defending organization) · 3 mentions · first at
    Royal Air Force is the primary British opponent to the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain and is central to discussion of air defense, Radar, and pilots.
  • Luftwaffe — Company · Core topic (military organization) · 37 mentions
    Central military organization discussed as the German air force executing the campaign against Britain (Battle of Britain and the Blitz).
  • Luftwaffe — Company · 18 mentions
  • Royal Air Force (RAF) — Company · 14 mentions
  • Red Army — Company · 2 mentions · first at
    But Stalin's never going to attack Hitler. He knows the Red Army is too weak and Stalin is not a gambler, so he's not going to take that risk.
  • We Have Ways of Making You Talk — Company · 2 mentions · first at
    It's a fraternal show. and it's called We Have Ways of Making You Talk.
  • Wehrmacht — Company · 2 mentions
  • hivehome.com — Company · 1 mention · first at
  • auraframes.co.uk — Company · 1 mention · first at
  • The Independent — Company · 1 mention · first at
  • The Rest Is History Club — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Murders, but of the broader context, the lives of his victims and the world of late Victorian London. Members of the Rest is History Club will get all five of those episodes on…
  • the restistory.com — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Of those episodes on Jack the Ripper on Monday. And if you want to join them, then please sign up at the restistory.com.

Products & tech

  • Hawker Hurricane — Product · 3 mentions
  • Supermarine Spitfire — Product · 3 mentions
  • Nelson's Column — Product · 2 mentions · first at
    And also, Hitler is plotting to move Nelson's column to Berlin, isn't he?
  • Blücher — Product · 2 mentions
  • EV charger — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Their heat pumps draw warmth from the air, and they keep it exactly where you want it. No smoke, no waste. Hives EV charger lets your car charge quietly overnight, recharging while you do, too.
  • Hive app — Product · 1 mention · first at
  • Silk stockings — Product · 1 mention · first at
    High prices. But now, American correspondents, for example, who are in Berlin, report seeing women wearing silk stockings plundered from Paris, local pubs and taverns with kind…
  • Ark of the Covenant — Product · 1 mention · first at
    I tell you what, I look like one of those top Nazis looking into the Ark of the Covenant at the end of Raiders of the Lost Arc.
  • TIE fighters — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Like those kind of enemy ships in Star Wars full of you know tie fighters, interchangeable baddies in mad uniforms.
  • Eggnog — Product · 1 mention · first at
    The rest history club membership as a little Christmas treat? Raise a glass of eggnog to that. And for now, goodbye.
  • Cointreau — Product · 1 mention
  • Messerschmitt Bf 109 — Product · 1 mention
  • Messerschmitt Bf 110 — Product · 1 mention
  • Uber app — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

  • Luftwaffe — Concept · Key participant · 79 mentions
    German air force that played a central role in the Battle of Britain.
    The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us.
  • The Luftwaffe — Concept · Key argument · 23 mentions
    German air force central to the Battle of Britain, discussed in terms of strategy and performance.
  • Operation Sea Lion — Concept · Strategic plan · 3 mentions · first at
    Germany's planned invasion of Britain, which was contingent on winning the Battle of Britain.
    And I guess that what follows the defeat of the Lufruffer in the Battle of Britain, the end of any prospect of the Germans carrying out operation sea lion, the plan to invade and conquer Britain.
  • Operation Barbarossa — Concept · Key argument · 1 mention · first at
    German invasion of the Soviet Union, discussed as a strategic decision.
    The British. What's not to like? And so it is that on the 18th of December 1940, Hitler issues one of the most fateful orders in history. Fur directive 21. The German Vermacht…
  • Battle of Britain — Concept · 16 mentions · first at
    Of our four-part series on the Nazis in 1939 and 1940. Britain stands alone. The Battle of Britain rages the finest hour.
  • Nazis — Concept · 8 mentions
  • French — Concept · 7 mentions · first at
    Local pubs and taverns with kind of bottles of quantro and armonia and expensive French drinks, the fruits of conquest. Tom, so Dominic, can I just ask how much plundering was there?
  • Second World War — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
    More generely from the point of view of our current series, which is looking at the Second World War through the prism of the Nazis. It's a massive turning point in the story…
  • Third Reich — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
    The Second World War through the prism of the Nazis. It's a massive turning point in the story of the Third Reich, isn't it? And we're not just indulging in British grandstanding in saying that.
  • Führer — Concept · 4 mentions
  • Poles — Concept · 4 mentions
  • Radar — Concept · 4 mentions
  • The Blitz — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
    Yeah, I think so. I think so. So once the battle of Britain is over as it were, it kind of evolves into the Blitz.
  • Bolshevism — Concept · 3 mentions
  • Portuguese — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Spain. And then this is how it will work. Edward and Wallace will be invited to go hunting on the Portuguese border with Spain. Their guides will trick them and lure them…
  • Dad's Army — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Exactly. We should have called out the sea fencables. Well, you described them as the kind of dad's army of the Napoleon wars, didn't you?
  • Save Your Way — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Hotels.com just rolled out a game-changing feature called Save Your Way. And it's as simple as it sounds.
  • Air defense system — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    It's effectively the world's only air defense system.
  • Battle of Mers-el-Kébir — Concept · 2 mentions
  • Jewish capitalism / Jewish finance capitalism — Concept · 2 mentions
  • Munich Agreement — Concept · 2 mentions
  • Non-aggression pact (Hitler–Stalin Pact) — Concept · 2 mentions
  • Slavs — Concept · 2 mentions
  • SS — Concept · 2 mentions
  • SEG tariff — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Suitability. Hive app compatible with selected technology. Paid for surplus requires SEG tariff.
  • Battle of France — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    What General Veon called the Battle of France is over.
  • Commonwealth — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    And so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say this was their finest hour.
  • Anglo-Saxon racial cousins — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Has quite a complicated attitude to Britain. He sees the British as Anglo-Saxon racial cousins. That's bad news for Kelts, I suppose. he respects the British for building a…
  • Vichy government — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Don't do it. And so, the British destroy them and kill more than a thousand French sailors. The Vichy government, Pa, who was already quite down on the British, says this is…
  • Norway campaign — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    That this is a massive challenge because his navy has taken a hammering in the Norway campaign.
  • Norwegian — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    The Bluka got blown up by the Norwegians very heroically. Well done, the Norwegians. So, Raider has three cruisers and four destroyers that he can call on in the channel. And the British.
  • Channel Fleet — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Cruisers and four destroyers that he can call on in the channel. And the British Channel fleet is five battleships, 11 cruisers, and 30 destroyers. So the odds are very clearly in Britain's favor.
  • British Union of Fascists — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Muttering about Oswald Mosley. Mosley's under arrest at this point, the leader of the British Union of Fascists. And actually, somebody who really likes the idea of Edward VII…
  • Boy Scouts — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    That you can buy now in gift shops in Britain. You've seen this? Yes. He was obsessed by the boy scouts, wasn't he?
  • Cyber Monday — Concept · 1 mention · first at
  • Saudis — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    You do. Or Donald Trump when he had that light and the Saudis with the orb. with the Yeah. Yeah.
  • Swastika — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Robinski. And he said, I just did that so I could say the name frankly. he said, When you saw the swastika or the black cross on the aircraft, your heart beat much quicker. It…
  • Black cross — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    So I could say the name frankly. he said, When you saw the swastika or the black cross on the aircraft, your heart beat much quicker. It was a feeling of absolute vengeance.…
  • Fall of Poland — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Beat much quicker. It was a feeling of absolute vengeance. And people who listen to our episode about the fall of Poland will understand why.
  • Nazi intelligence — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    So poor that they didn't even realize that the British have this. So, here's the thing. Nazi intelligence, howard intelligence in the fall of France has been awful, but Nazi…

Places & events

  • Britain — Place · Primary setting / target · 63 mentions · first at
    Target of German military strategy; Britain’s political/military response (Churchill, RAF) is central to the episode's narrative.
  • Operation Barbarossa — Event · Key turning-point event (future cliffhanger) · 39 mentions
    Fateful decision by Hitler to invade the Soviet Union (Operation Barbarossa) is presented as the strategic consequence of failing to knock Britain out and is the cliffhanger ending for the episode/series.
  • Germany — Place · Setting / Origin · 15 mentions · first at
    Primary national context for the episode — origin of the Third Reich, the Nazis, and the military strategy discussed (Hitler, Luftwaffe, planning).
  • Battle of Britain — Event · Core topic · 17 mentions · first at
    Pivotal air campaign during WWII where the RAF defended the UK against the Luftwaffe
    Luftvafer's assault on Britain, not England, Britain begins. Unbelievable drama. Will Germany succeed in knocking out the RAF? Will the invasion go ahead?
  • Sea Lion — Event · Planned invasion (subject of discussion) · 4 mentions · first at
    Codename for Nazi planned amphibious invasion of Britain (Operation Sea Lion). The episode traces planning, doubts, and eventual indefinite postponement.
    Of the Lufruffer in the Battle of Britain, the end of any prospect of the Germans carrying out operation sea lion, the plan to invade and conquer Britain.
  • United States (states) — Place · External power / strategic factor · 10 mentions · first at
    Referenced as a potential late entry into the European war whose isolationist politics in 1940 formed part of Hitler's calculus.
    But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister and perhaps more protracted.
  • Operation Sea Lion — Event · Strategic plan · 3 mentions · first at
    Nazi Germany's planned invasion of the UK, which was never executed
    Has been happening, Hitler has inched closer to a decision. On the 16th of July, he signed an order to prepare a landing operation against England, codenamed Saleva, Sea Lion.…
  • The Blitz — Event · Key argument · 3 mentions · first at
    German bombing campaign against Britain, discussed as a follow-up to the Battle of Britain.
    So, the Lufafa have been raiding Britain since June, but it's in August that this becomes properly intense. They want to target the British airfields. They want to lure out Britain's planes and destroy.
  • Dunkirk — Event · Referenced event · 3 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as a pivotal moment in the early stages of World War II.
    Would say, we've had the miracle of Dunkirk. The British troops and 100,000 other Allied troops have been got away from the trap that the Nazis had set for them. They're back in Britain, but the situation is still very.
  • Donbass — Place · Strategic industrial region (future Eastern Front objective) · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced as part of the industrial heartland in Ukraine that Germany sought in planning the invasion of the Soviet Union.
    They will seize Ukraine's industrial heartland in the Donbass. And above all, they will power towards the Soviet capital in Moscow. And the name of this operation was originally Operation Otto,.
  • Battle of France — Event · Referenced event · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as the precursor to the Battle of Britain.
    What General Veon called the Battle of France is over.
  • Baltic States — Place · Strategic territory referenced · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced in context of Stalin's annexations (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) and shifting Eastern front dynamics that concerned Hitler.
    Non-aggression pact since 1939, and Stalin since then has seized Eastern Poland and a bit of Finland. Stalin has also, while Hitler has been in Paris, Stalin has annexed the three Baltic states of Latia, Lithuania, and Estonia.
  • Latvia — Place · Referenced annexed territory · 2 mentions
    Listed among the Baltic states annexed by the Soviet Union pre-1940; used to illustrate Stalin's expansion and its impact on Hitler's decisions.
    Poland and a bit of Finland. Stalin has also, while Hitler has been in Paris, Stalin has annexed the three Baltic states of Latia, Lithuania, and Estonia.
  • Estonia — Place · Referenced annexed territory · 1 mention · first at
    Listed among the Baltic states annexed by the Soviet Union pre-1940; part of strategic context pushing Hitler toward the east.
    Poland and a bit of Finland. Stalin has also, while Hitler has been in Paris, Stalin has annexed the three Baltic states of Latia, Lithuania, and Estonia.
  • Lithuania — Place · Referenced annexed territory · 1 mention · first at
    Listed among the Baltic states annexed by the Soviet Union pre-1940; part of strategic context pushing Hitler toward the east.
    Poland and a bit of Finland. Stalin has also, while Hitler has been in Paris, Stalin has annexed the three Baltic states of Latia, Lithuania, and Estonia.
  • Gibraltar — Place · Strategic Mediterranean objective (referenced) · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as part of Mediterranean strategic options (control of Gibraltar seen as important in possible alternative strategies).
    Get the Italians on board, get the Spanish on board, maybe the French, take Gibralta, take the Sewish Canal, take Malta.
  • Stalingrad — Place · Referenced future battleground (indirect) · 1 mention
    Mentioned as a later key location in the Eastern Front narrative; in this episode it appears only as a geographical reference point in the larger WWII story.
  • COVID-19 pandemic — Event · Incidental mention · 4 mentions
    Mentioned in passing, not central to the discussion.
  • France — Place · 9 mentions · first at
    What General Veon called the Battle of France is over.
  • Balkans — Place · 4 mentions · first at
    Last hope would be shattered. Germany would then be master of Europe and the Balkans. Decision: Russia's destruction must therefore be made a part of the struggle. If we start in May 1941, we would have five months to finish the job.
  • Dunkirk — Place · 3 mentions · first at
    Would say, we've had the miracle of Dunkirk. The British troops and 100,000 other Allied troops have been got away from the trap that the Nazis had set for them. They're back in Britain, but the situation is still very.
  • Romania — Place · 3 mentions · first at
    And he took a bit of Romania, Bessarabia and northern Bukavina. Stalin has been kind of biting off bits of Europe.
  • Ukraine — Place · 3 mentions · first at
    Currently importing from the Soviet Union. We'll get all the grain from Ukraine. We'll get oil from Romania, oil from the Caucuses.
  • English Channel — Place · 3 mentions
  • North Africa — Place · 2 mentions · first at
    Postpones it. And the reason he postpones it is because of a really interesting development in North Africa.
  • Mediterranean — Place · 2 mentions · first at
    Listeners, this is in Algeria, place called Mez Al Kabir, where the French Mediterranean fleet is based. And as you say to them, the British basically give them an ultimatum.…
  • Portugal — Place · 2 mentions · first at
    British history. This is a brilliant idea. Now this is a mad story. Edward and Wallace are in Portugal. They are going around telling everybody Britain has lost and should make…
  • Mers-el-Kébir — Place · 2 mentions
  • House of Commons — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Mean, it was of course Winston Churchill and he was speaking in the House of Commons on Tuesday the 18th of June 1940 and he was speaking at a moment of supreme danger for Britain. Quite possibly the darkest moment in.
  • Algeria — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Brutal themselves in their fight for survival. So, so just to explain to the listeners, this is in Algeria, place called Mez Al Kabir, where the French Mediterranean fleet is…
  • Eastern Poland — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Stalin, of course, have been in a non-aggression pact since 1939, and Stalin since then has seized Eastern Poland and a bit of Finland. Stalin has also, while Hitler has been…
  • Baltic states — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Poland and a bit of Finland. Stalin has also, while Hitler has been in Paris, Stalin has annexed the three Baltic states of Latia, Lithuania, and Estonia.
  • Bessarabia — Place · 1 mention · first at
    And he took a bit of Romania, Bessarabia and northern Bukavina. Stalin has been kind of biting off bits of Europe.
  • Southern England — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Rivalry with the RAF pilots in a sense you know these are peer air forces meeting on the skies over southern England are you know a sporting arena a little bit I mean I think…
  • Sandhurst — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Commanders from both the British and the West German military played out this really big war game at Sandhurst. And they concluded, unanimously that a German invasion would…
  • Islington — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Because the German air force accidentally drops bombs on I think is Islington.
  • Coventry — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Supply chains, the fuel depots and so on and so forth. And there are two or three very infamous moments. So Coventry on the 14th of November, the cathedral was destroyed. I…
  • St Paul's Cathedral — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Most famous photos of Britain ever taken. The great clouds of smoke over St. Paul's Cathedral, which is emerging kind of undaunted. Yeah. From the fires. On the 10th of May…
  • City of London — Place · 1 mention · first at
    This was I actually didn't realize this until I looked it up. Twice as much of the city of London was destroyed on that night as had been burned in the Great Fire of London in 1666. So about 1,500 people killed.
  • East Prussia — Place · 1 mention · first at
    That Hitler sends his agitants east and he says to them, I want you to go into the forests of East Prussia and to find me a good spot for a secret field headquarters. And this…

Media & podcasts

  • The Rest is History — Media · Host · 3 mentions · first at
    The podcast itself, hosting the discussion on the Battle of Britain.
    Today on the rest is history, the climax of our four-part series on the Nazis in 1939 and 1940. Britain stands alone. The Battle of Britain rages the finest hour.
  • We Have Ways of Making You Talk — Media · Referenced media · 2 mentions · first at
    A podcast mentioned as a source for detailed information on the Battle of Britain.
    And they have been doing a series on the battle of Britain just recently on that show. And my brother has written a brilliant book on the battle of Britain.
  • Hannah Leing — Character · Referenced anecdotal name · 1 mention
    Mentioned once in entity list but has no substantive role or evidence in the transcript; likely mis-extraction or minor mention without context.

Sponsors

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    Sponsor of the episode, promoting energy solutions like solar panels and EV chargers.
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    Sponsor of the podcast episode, promoting their home energy solutions
    This episode is sponsored by Hive.
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    Episode sponsor; provided a promotional ad describing Hive's home energy products (solar, thermostats, heat pumps, EV charger) and a direct CTA to hivehome.com.
    Hive brings it all together. Heating, charging, and solar managed from one simple app in a quiet revolution. In the long history of power, Hive helps you finally know yours. Head to hivehome.com.
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    Sponsored segment promoting Aura Frames' digital photo frames during the podcast.
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    Sponsor of the podcast episode, promoting their digital photo frames
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    Mentioned as a sponsor, promoting their hotel booking services with a new feature called Save Your Way.
    Hotels.com just rolled out a game-changing feature called Save Your Way. And it's as simple as it sounds.
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    Someone shows up for you when you need it most? We all need that sometimes, and Uber knows it. Uber isn't just a ride or a meal delivered. It's showing up no matter what.
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Full transcript with timestamps

Today on the rest is history, the climax of our four-part series on the Nazis in 1939 and 1940. Britain stands alone. The Battle of Britain rages the finest hour. But we will be looking at this story through the eyes of the Germans. This episode is sponsored by Hive. Britain revolutionized the future with the might of industrial power. But now you can transform your own energy future and take control with the power of Hive. Hive makes the most of the sun with solar panels turning sunlight into greener electricity and enabling you to sell excess back to the grid. And Hives thermostats make it possible for you to heat your home without lifting anything more than a thumb and an impressed brow.

Their heat pumps draw warmth from the air, and they keep it exactly where you want it. No smoke, no waste. Hives EV charger lets your car charge quietly overnight, recharging while you do, too. Hive brings it all together. Heating, charging, and solar managed from one simple app in a quiet revolution. In the long history of power, Hive helps you finally know yours. Head to hivehome.com to find out more. Subject to survey and suitability. Hive app compatible with selected technology. Paid for surplus requires SEG tariff.

What General Veon called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends a survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life and the long continuity of our institutions and our empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break out in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free. and the life of the world may move forward into broad sunlit hublin.

But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister and perhaps more protracted by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties. And so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say this was their finest hour. So Dominic, any ideas who was? Oh god. I mean,

it was of course Winston Churchill and he was speaking in the House of Commons on Tuesday the 18th of June 1940 and he was speaking at a moment of supreme danger for Britain. Quite possibly the darkest moment in uh Britain's long history. Definitely, I would say,

you know, we've had the miracle of Dunkirk. The British troops and 100,000 other Allied troops have been got away from the the trap that the Nazis had set for them. They're back in Britain, but you know, the situation is still very very bleak. The day before Churchill gave that speech, Marshall Petar had taken over as prime minister of France. It appealed to Hitler for an armistice. And I guess that what follows the defeat of the Lufruffer in the Battle of Britain, the end of any prospect of the Germans carrying out operation sea lion, the plan to invade and conquer Britain.

This isn't just the most celebrated episode in modern British history, but more generely from the point of view of our current series, which is looking at the Second World War through the prism of the Nazis. It's a massive turning point in the story of the Third Reich, isn't it? And we're not just indulging in British grandstanding in saying that.

Never. Never. On this podcast. When Churchill says that uh Hitler knows he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. I mean, he's he's not wrong there, is he?

Not wrong at all. And um even people who may be tempted to be skeptical will discover in this episode that it's precisely because of this that Hitler takes the catastrophic decision to launch his biggest gamble of all which is the betrayal of Stalin with whom he'd signed a pact. His decision to turn east and launch the invasion of the Soviet Union. And that all flows from his inability to break Britain in the summer of 1940 as we will discuss. So, let's return to Germany in midsummer 1940. We ended last time with Hitler coming home to Berlin in triumph, having to the conquered city of Paris. And among the ordinary people of Berlin, morale is now very high. You know, they had complained all winter about their frozen wages and high prices. But now, American correspondents, for example, who are in Berlin, report seeing women wearing silk stockings plundered from Paris, um, local pubs and taverns with kind of

bottles of quantro and armonia and expensive French drinks, the fruits of conquest. Tom,

so Dominic, can I just ask I mean, how much plundering was there? Oh, loads. Loads. So when the Germans entered cities, I mean this is standard by the way in wartime, you know, when the Germans enter these cities which remember are deserted, what was it? Sh population fell from 20,000 to 800 or something. You know, they go into these shops and they help themselves and they bring this stuff or send it back to Germany. And these are might seem like trivial things, but these are little things that might make quite a big difference to the psychology of people who were previously anxious about fighting a war and now think they are winning and indeed now think they've effectively won it. I remember in my brother's book, The War in the West, which I've been quoting a lot in this series, he has um an account of uh German girls and their misery at the fact that the only clothes available in the shops are all brown. And presumably

if soldiers are coming back from the chic boutiques of Paris, suddenly there's a little bit more glamour and color.

Yeah, of course. And if you're a soldier, I mean, being posted to Paris is, you know, the gig you want. And actually talking of soldiers, for the next year or so, if you are in the German army, you are unlikely to fire a shot in anger because this is the period for Germany which feels like the phony war, you know, cuz effectively as they see it, they've won the war in the west. you know, there's very little more fighting to be done. The only issue is, of course, there is still the problem of Britain. Now, remember, as we've talked about many times in this series, Hitler has quite a complicated attitude to Britain. He sees the British as Anglo-Saxon racial cousins. That's bad news for Kelts, I suppose. Um, he respects the British for building a vast global empire, but at the same time, he knows there are people in Britain who are, you know, who will never give into him, Churchill and Co., and he hates and

fears them and wants to bring them down. And there is a sense, isn't there, uh that he does view England, as he calls Britain um as as his most dangerous enemy um more than France really.

Oh, definitely more than France. Definitely. Hitler despises the Soviet Union, for example. He knows he'll have to have a showdown with the Soviet Union, but he thinks the Slavs are subhuman and that the Germany will easily be able to beat them. He respects and fears Britain and the United States. He sees them as the kind of Anglo-Saxon capitalist democracies with whom there will have to be a final reckoning for control of the planet. I mean, that's genuinely the way that he thinks.

Yeah. And he thinks he can knock the British out quickly by knocking the French out quickly. Because what he thinks is once France is out, once the British have been driven back into their island, ideally the British people will realize that Churchill was a fool, you know, and a tool of Jewish capitalism and they will turn to a Lord Halifax or a David Lloyd George or even maybe bring back Neville Chamberlain and they will do a deal with Hitler. It's often said that David Lloyd George or someone or Oswald Mosley or some would be the equivalent of of Marshall Peta in Britain, but presumably Britain would not have been defeated as calamitously as France.

So the terms would presumably have been better. What kind of accommodation do you think Hitler would have been content with with Britain?

Got it. This is a difficult one because this is into pure counterfactuals. Hitler has already offered several times to guarantee Britain's empire. So he would probably have demanded the return of Germany's colonies from before the first world war. So colonist in for example what's now Namibia, maybe Cameroon, Tanganika, maybe the transfer of some French colonies, who knows? Or the odd British colony. But by and large he wanted, as we saw last time, to preserve the British Empire because he doesn't want other predators to get those colonies, meaning Japan, the Soviet Union, the United States. within Britain itself, an allied regime that probably joins him in a crusade against Bocheism eventually in the east. I suppose it depends of course whether they just made a deal without being conquered. If they make a deal without being conquered, then he's not going to massively interfere probably in

Britain's internal arrangements. I would imagine I mean basically Britain would become a satellite state, a kind of client state.

But there would be what what does he want? probably some form of national government, you know, right leaning. There's a difference between a Mosley and a Lloyd George. Mosley is more of the quizzling model, isn't he? Lloyd George is more of the PA, the World War I hero who comes back. Of course, it doesn't happen because Hitler has completely misunderstood the mood in Britain after Dunkirk. I mean, Aen Kershaw says in his biography, what Hitler never really understands is how much British public opinion has shifted after 1938 after Munich. after Munich there's probably no deal that Britain is going to make with Hitler even though we you know if Lord Halifax had been prime minister and might have come close

but there have been a lot of people that would have opposed it I would say and also as we mentioned in our previous episode uh Dunkirk also has a huge role in perhaps giving a bit of optimism to Britain where really there are few grounds for optimism.

Yeah totally definitely agree. So actually you know what you you brilliantly ventriloquist Winston Churchill you know the battle of Britain is about to begin or whatever it is. Hitler is only half expecting at this point to launch an attack on Britain. He's hoping that it won't be necessary. He said last time to Gerbles after visiting Paris he said you know I'm going to make a last offer to the British. I'm going to make them a generous offer and hopefully they will finally see sense. And is that in part because he has you know his perspective is very continentalist. He assumes that if the British have left the continent, then essentially they've lost the war and he doesn't properly have a handle on the kind of global dimension that Britain can bring to the conflict. I I don't think it's that actually. I think in a weird way what Hitler does is he overestimates the importance of the British Empire to Britain. That will

sound weird to a lot of listeners. That is interesting. No, that is interesting. See, Hitler looks at it and he thinks if you carry on fighting, if you exhaust your resources and try to fight me, you'll probably lose your empire. Spoiler alert, that's exactly what happens. He thinks, well, obviously the British would only care about their empire. Nothing would matter more to them than being strong and influential in the world. You know, Churchill, who loves the empire more than anybody, presides over a war that basically destroys Britain's ability to keep hold of its empire. I mean, that's the kind of irony of the whole thing.

Anyway, Hitler's planning to give this big speech where he's going to make this offer and he plans initially to give it on the 8th of July, which is two days after he's got home from France, but he postpones it. And the reason he postpones it is because of a really interesting development in North Africa. The French had the fourth biggest fleet in the world, and Churchill was desperate to stop it falling into German hands. And he doesn't trust Marshall Payton's asurances that they won't let that happen. I mean he does kind of he he gives the French fleet in Mel Kabir an ultimatum doesn't he? Um and British officers kind of plead with the French to do it and it's when they say no that

the decision is taken and that decision is a reflection of the fact that the British are prepared to be incredibly brutal themselves in in their fight for survival. So, so just to explain to the listeners, this is in Algeria, place called Mez Al Kabir, where the French Mediterranean fleet is based. And as you say to them, the British basically give them an ultimatum. Their own allies, you know, join us. Hand yourselves over to us or we'll destroy you. The French don't do it. And so, the British destroy them and kill more than a thousand French sailors. The Vichy government, you know, Pa, who was already quite down on the British, says this is like the worst betrayal in human history. He he breaks off diplomatic relations with Britain. It sends a really clear signal to the world.

Yeah, it does. Britain's not messing around. You know, Churchill's not going to be doing any deals. We're really going to do whatever it takes. And the Germans had hoped they would get the French fleet and that would help them win control of the channel if they had to. I mean, it now means they have to win control of the skies if they're going to get across the channel. So, that's, you know, it's preparing the ground for the Battle of Britain. But, of course, it gives Hitler pause for thought. So now he postpones the speech. Interestingly, he doesn't really know what to do. In this episode, we will see Hitler at his most indecisive and confused because the British are not just not behaving as he thinks they they ought to. So he talks to Gerbles again. Gerbles records in his diary on the 9th of July, despite all this, the Furer still has a very positive attitude towards England. He's still not ready for the final blow. He

wants to think over his speech again in peace. So Hitler postpones the speech. He goes off to his mountain lair the Ober Saltzburg in southern Germany and he summons his military chiefs. So first of all Grand Admiral Eric Rder who is the head of the Marine the Navy high command. Now Raider is a you know your classic kind of career naval officer conservative Prussian family right-wing. He has been working since 1939 on invasion plans for Britain and he knows that this is a massive challenge because his navy has taken a hammering in the Norway campaign.

Of course, the Blucera got blown up, didn't it? The Bluka got blown up by the Norwegians very heroically. Well done, the Norwegians. So, Raider has three cruisers and four destroyers that he can call on in the channel. And the British Channel fleet is five battleships, 11 cruisers, and 30 destroyers. So the odds are very very clearly in Britain's favor.

One thing to consider is that we don't like being uh having the advantage of numbers. So perhaps we'd be unsettled by that.

But we're unsettled by the odds being in our favor. We always perform pluckily and and generally win

when the odds are against us. But I think we often do even better when the odds are in our favor. So I think it's just win-win really.

That's just the nature of it. And I don't want any complaints from people who don't pay their taxes on the other side of the Atlantic. So then Hitler receives uh the Vermach chief of staff, General France Halder. Halder was the bloke, the kind of clipped guy with glasses who was trying to get rid of Hitler in episode one of this little bit of the series.

They given up, hadn't he? And had given up. Exactly. Again, Halder is very, you know, he can see that um Hitler doesn't know what to do. He writes afterwards, "The furer is greatly puzzled by England's persisting unwillingness to make peace. He sees the answer, as we do, now this is interesting, in England's hope in Russia and therefore counts on having to compel her by main force to agree to peace. Actually, that's much against his grain. So, it's interesting that Halder thinks that the British are are hoping that Russia will change sides. Then he goes on, the reason that Hitler doesn't want to do it really is that a military defeat of England would bring about the disintegration of the British Empire.

This would not be of any benefit to Germany. German blood would be shed to accomplish something that would benefit only Japan, the United States, and others. So again, the sort of the Germans don't want to see the British Empire fall apart. Preserving that is really important, their long-term plan for the kind of conquest of the planet. Hitler is speaking to an admiral and to a general. And again, I was talking about this with my brother. He said the mad thing about this is that um there's no kind of combined services general staff. So the the admiral and the general are not talking to each other.

So all the planning for kind of amphibious campaign, they have no concept of how to launch an amphibious campaign because the navy and the army aren't talking to each other.

And also the the man running the luftvafer is an extremely unreliable man who's more interested in like hunting trophies and looted art and eating. And that's Herman Guring. And I think it is really difficult when you're looking at German prospects in 1940. They have done so well. They have kind of oblited everybody in their face. And yet there is still this kind of makeshift degree of incompetence about the organization of the armed forces that is kind of lurking there and will slowly emerge over the course of the next years.

Yeah. And over the course of this episode actually. Now there is another option. There is another possibility about how to bring Britain to to heal. And this is that you could get a fifth columnist to do your job for you. Now, while he's at his lair, Hitler says to his cronies, "God, I wish I'd worked harder to win over Edward VII when he was king, you know, and he's also muttering about Oswald Mosley." Mosley's under arrest at this point, the leader of the British Union of Fascists. And actually, somebody who really likes the idea of Edward VII, who is now, of course, has abdicated because of his relationship with Wallace Simpson, and he's become the Duke of Windsor.

Somebody who really likes the idea of using him is the top German sparkling wine salesman Yo Kim von Ribbon Trop Britain

and now foreign minister one of the worst people who's ever lived Ribbon Trop because he hated Britain. I mean he really does hate Britain and he thinks let's let's bring back the worst king in British history. This is a brilliant idea. Now this is a mad story. Edward and Wallace are in Portugal. They are going around telling everybody Britain has lost and should make peace with the Nazis. And Ribbonrop goes to this bloke and gets an SS officer called Valus Shelonburgg and says, "I want you to do a job for me." Basically, I want you to lure them across the border into Franco, Spain. And then this is how it will work. Edward and Wallace will be invited to go hunting on the Portuguese border with Spain. Their guides will trick them and lure them across the border into Spain. And there they'll be kidnapped by German agents. And then they will take Edward to a safe house and offer him 50 million francs to accept the British

crown as a Nazi puppet. Well, he'd probably have taken it, wouldn't he? Yeah. And he's a he's quite a bad man, so he might have taken it. So, here's the thing. Ribbentrop knows that the British wouldn't like this. He actually thinks that it might make war, you know, invasion more likely. But he loves that idea because he really wants to invade Britain. He hates Britain. He wants wants to see as many British people die as possible.

And he wants to force all those gentlemen's clubs to give him honorary membership and all those tailor who'd laughed at his shoes or whatever, his ill-fitting suits. He'll get his revenge. But there's bad news for Ribbon Troll. First of all, Edward doesn't want to go hunting on the Portuguese border. He says no. And then a disaster. Churchill to get rid of them offers Edward the job of governor of the Bahamas. So this B SS bloke Shallenberg he sends them death threats hidden in bouquets of flowers saying you go to the Bahamas you will die the Bahamas and and also spreads rumors that the Bahamas are a terrible place and they shouldn't go. So he basically bribes their chauffeur to tell them how awful the Bahamas are.

Anyway, this is absolutely useless. They do go to the Bahamas and my favorite detail of this is that Shelonberg's sort of passing shot is rages to have their luggage severely delayed. That will show them. You can imagine him laughing in a sinister way. The funny thing about this, the twist is everybody else absolutely hated ribbon and the Nazi regime. So when Shelonburg got back to Berlin, Reinhardt Hydrickch congratulated him on having made such a mess of the operation. Said, "Brilliant, good job. You did exactly what we wanted." Because we didn't want Ribbonrop to get the win. While all this has been uh happening, Hitler has inched closer to a decision. On the 16th of July, he signed an order to prepare a landing operation against England, codenamed Saleva, Sea Lion. But even that order is hedged about with caveats if it should be necessary cuz he's still hoping that the British will come to

their senses. And then on the evening of Friday the 19th, he finally makes this great peace offer. It's a huge spectacle. The Richsteag is meeting at the Croll Opera House. All his generals have been kind of promoted or decorated. They're sitting in the front row, a sort of sea of bling and medals. Guring has been promoted to Reich's Marshall. So, he's wearing an even more extravagant uniform than ever. You know, great beam over his massive face. Hitler gives this speech and apparently he's on top form. William Shy, the American correspondent, said it was one of the best speeches Hitler gave. He got to the end and he said, "I want to make a last appeal to to reason and common sense.

I'm I'm not the vanquished begging favors. I'm the victor speaking in the name of reason." You know, basically, I don't I don't like war, Hitler says. I'm in the irony. I don't like war. I don't like to think of all the um the sacrifices and suffering. I hope Churchill, a wararmonger, you know, I hope he'll listen to reason. If he doesn't, it will end with a complete annihilation of Britain. But actually, I mean, he's had all this time to think of this offer and it is so vague and insubstantial. You know, that's all it is. There's no specifics at all. And Churchill rejects it that very evening. It's clear that the British are never going to accept it.

And the mad thing is that so many people in Germany are genuinely surprised. So Shyra, the American correspondent, he listens to the news with a load of German senior officers and senior Nazis and they are genuinely surprised. Can you make it out? Can you understand these British fools to turn down peace? Now Shyra said they have nothing against Britain. They think they can lick Britain if it comes to a showdown, but they prefer peace. They they can't get their heads around Britain's stubbornness as they see it. And Richard Evans in his book on the third right says a lot of this is down to Nazi propaganda. They basically believe their own propaganda and they people ordinary people genuinely think the British are the wararmongers. The British have forced war upon us and you know we're making them these generous offers and the British are just slotting them aside because they they they're the tools of

Jewish finance capitalism. Isn't that what uh kind of chat show hosts in America? Some of them

Yeah. think that American podcasters and right-wing American podcasters now make this point. So Churchill said no. Even now Hitler is dithering and again you know Hitler the gambler the man who always launches the decisive stroke. This is arguably the first time since he became chancellor of Germany that he's faced with a really, really big decision. And he genuinely does not know what to do because as deluded as he is, he knows that Britain as an island, as an empire, as an industrial superpower is going to be very, very hard to beat, to conquer.

Anyway, on the 21st of July, an absolutely crucial day in the history of the Third Reich, I would say, he meets his commanders and he says, "Okay, finalize your invasion plans. Will strike between mid August and midepptember." But then, and this is the important bit, at this meeting, for the very first time, he mentions an alternative way of ending the war, possibly an easier way. And this is it. He says, "Why are the British holding out? Because clearly they hope that one day they will get help from another world power, probably the Soviet Union." Now, Hitler and Stalin, of course, have been in a non-aggression pact since 1939, and Stalin since then has seized Eastern Poland and a bit of Finland. Stalin has also, while Hitler has been in Paris, Stalin has annexed the three Baltic states of Latia, Lithuania, and Estonia.

and he took a bit of Romania, Bessarabia and northern Bukavina. Stalin has been kind of biting off bits of Europe. But Stalin's never going to attack Hitler. He knows the Red Army is too weak and Stalin is not a gambler, so he's not going to take that risk. But now, for the first time, 21st of July, Hitler says to his generals, maybe we should break the pact with Stalin. Maybe we should attack him. What will surprise listeners I think is that you might think well this is because you know Hitler has always wanted to do this. He's got a racial hatred for the Slavs. He hates bulsheism. He wants to carve out an empire in the east. Laban's ram all this. But that's not the reason that he wants to do it now. You know Ian Kershaw in his biography of Hitler is absolutely explicit about this. This is about the strategic need to get Britain out of the war. Hitler says to his generals, "If Russia is smashed, that is

the end of any hopes that England might have of a change in this situation." In other words, it will send a message to England. You are totally on your own and there's no help coming.

What about America? Isn't Hitler worried about the um the possibility that America might come to Britain's rescue and indeed is kind of girding her loins to do exactly that

in the summer of 1940. So, here's the thing. I think Hitler knows that the Americans are a factor, but it's an election year. Roosevelt is facing re-election in a in an isolationist country, and Roosevelt is promising Americans even while this is going on, you know, we're not going to get involved in another European war. So Hitler knows that he probably has a window of maybe a year, two years before the Americans might get involved. And what is more, if he can knock Britain out, either through a deal with Britain or by invading Britain or by persuading the British to give up because he's crushed the Soviet Union, then the Americans are no longer even a factor.

So if we do all this, this is his thinking, if we do all this, we don't even need to worry about America because without the British, the Americans will never get involved in Europe. That's a I mean he knows that at some point there'll have to be a showdown with the Americans, you know, in 1949 or something, but he's not anticipating it straight away, I would say. And of course, he thinks, you know, attacking America would be difficult. How on earth are you going to get over there? But attacking the Soviet Union, he says to his generals at this meeting, I think we'll need maybe 80, 100 divisions.

Let's do it next year. And I quote, compared with the fighting in the West, it will be child's play. You know, we talked before about the Soviet war in Finland. He watched that and he said, "The Red Army is rubbish. We'll definitely be able to wipe the floor with the Red Army." And this assumption will have a catastrophic effect on the fortunes of Hitler's war and indeed of the Third Reich, won't it? Anyway, for the time being, the focus is still Britain. The next evening, the 22nd of July, Hitler's about to go off to Byroit to hear some vagna. He's going to hear gut damarong.

Oh, the downfall of the gods. the downfall of the gods. Exactly the very last Vagnner performance I think he will ever attend. And just before he leaves Berlin, he hears that Lord Halifax, who's one of the people that he'd hoped would make a deal with him, has actually gone on the BBC and totally rejected any talk of a deal. In fact, even though we think of Halifax as a sort of wimpish, you know, weedy reputation in Britain these days, but if you read the speech, I've read the transcript of the speech, it's pretty stirring stuff. Halifax says, "We realize that the struggle may cost us everything, but just because the things we're defending are worth any sacrifice, it is a noble privilege to be the defenders of things so precious."

You don't sort of associate that kind of quite rousing stuff with Halifax. It's good stuff.

I'd imagine he was too tall and languid to engage in such such rhetoric. You're told and languid and you often engage in such rhetoric. No,

I I wouldn't have been able to come up with that. Oh, don't you're too hard on yourself. I can't believe I'm saying that because it's not even true. Hitler's options now are very narrow. So, it's looking like they are going to have to attack Britain. Before he goes off to hear this Vagner, he says to Gerbles, "Prepare the ground with the people, use the radio, leaves the newspapers. Then he goes off to Vagna and then he goes off to the Burgoff, his mountain lair, where he's going to spend the last weeks of July." And all the time his commanders are working on this invasion plan. So they assemble very Napoleonic, a fleet of flatbottomed barges to get across the channel and they've got embarcation points on the channel coast just as Napoleon did. What about the sea fencables?

Exactly. We should have called out the sea fencables. Well, you described them as the kind of dad's army of the Napoleon wars, didn't you?

Cuz this is the heyday of dad's army, isn't it? The home guarder busy dusting down their wooden rifles and things,

right? Retired bank managers in Britain. Yes. um parading and drilling in preparation for a life or death struggle against Hitler's war machine. Makes you proud to be a British, Tom. Now, meanwhile, the bloke who tried to kidnap Edward VII, Valter Shelonburg, the SS guy, he has been told to prepare a handbook for the German troops when they land in Britain. And this is a thing that you can buy now in gift shops in Britain. You've seen this? Yes. He was obsessed by the boy scouts, wasn't he? He saw them as a sinister paramilitary organization that would need to be eliminated. And I'm I'm delighted to say Britain's historic public schools.

There's a guide to Britain's top boarding schools there because they're also seen as a nest of um capitalist patriotism.

Weren't there plans to bomb Harrow, which was Church Old School? Church's old school.

Yeah, I love that. You detect the hand of Ribbonrop in that malevolent plan. Well, well, also there's a mad list of 2,800 people who are going to be arrested and details of which bit of the Nazi war machine would be in charge of detaining them. So, there's Churchill and Chamberlain and so on, but there's also Robert Baden Pal the scouts again. I mean, he's got to go clearly HG Wells and very much not a friend of the show, Virginia Wolf was going to be arrested and detained.

And also, Hitler is plotting to move Nelson's column to Berlin, isn't he? He is. I'll tell you who's not on the list actually. David Lloyd George.

And why do you think that is? I think because they are genuinely thinking he's the kind of person who would do it, who would actually be the Marshall Peter Britain. I'm not saying he would, but I think they think he might be. Actually, even though they are drawing up all this stuff, but the the thing is, see, I don't think they ever really thought they would do it because they have got these mad ideas about Nelson's column, but they never really draw up a serious plan about what an occupied Britain would look like. And the reason they don't do that and the reason there's so much speculation even now about what a Nazi Britain would have been like is because the Navy and the army never really think they're going to do it. So at the end of July, Admiral Rder came to Hitler's lair and basically said to him, "We're probably not going to be ready this autumn and ideally, you know, I'd like to wait until 1941." And

I think Raider really means never. Yeah, never. But he's still not talking to the to the army, is he?

No, no, no. They're not really talking to each other. They all hate each other in the Nazi regime. I mean, understandably, because they're all terrible people. Now, Hitler's got this great sense of urgency. You know, he's he's going to he thinks he's going to die at any moment. He thinks the wheels are going to come off his economy, and he's right. He thinks a long war will favor the British. Again, he's right. Again, echoes of the Napoleonic period, the blockade.

Exactly. These patterns are there for a reason. You know, the British fleet is still there. British industry is still there. Britain is a tough nut to crack. Even now he's thinking about the Soviet option. You know, he's saying to his generals, do you know what? Actually, if we don't do the invasion, we could attack Russia instead. Halder has the notes of the meeting on the 31st of July. With Russia smashed, England's last hope would be shattered. Germany would then be master of Europe and the Balkans. Decision: Russia's destruction must therefore be made a part of the struggle. If we start in May 1941, we would have five months to finish the job.

However, Hitler says we can worry about that a bit later. Let's just give this British invasion a chance. Let's start the air attack now. If Gurring has been telling me the truth and the Luftvafa is as good as he says, then we're laughing. We'll win control of the skies. If we get the impression that the English are crushed, we shall proceed to the attack. And the very next day, the 1st of August, he signs directive number 17 for the conduct of air and sea warfare against England. And it reads as follows. The German air force is to overpower the English air force with all the forces at its command in the shortest time possible to establish the conditions for the final subjugation of England. and Dominic. With that, the Luftvafer's assault on Britain, not England, Britain begins. Unbelievable drama. Will Germany succeed in knocking out the RAF? Will the invasion go ahead?

Will Britain lie prostrate under the jack boot? There is literally only one way to find out and that is to stay while we have a commercial break and listen to the second half of this episode. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. History is full of gifts, but the best are those that last. Because photographs have become our modern heirlooms. They're like fragments of the present already turning into history.

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The gratitude of every home in our island, in our empire, and indeed throughout the world, except in the abodess of the guilty. goes out to the British airmen who, undaunted by odds, unwaried in their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of world war by their proess and by their devotion. Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. It will astound listeners to learn that that was Winston Churchill again speaking in the House Commons on the 20th of August 1940. And welcome back everyone to the rest is history. Britain has rejected Hitler's final peace offer and so the furer has ordered the Luftvafer to begin the assault that if Manm Mountain Herman Gurring's boasts are justified will pave the way for operation sea lion the invasion of Great Britain but Dominic as Churchill's words suggest Guring's men are not having things their own way. The

Nazis are on the back foot. They are indeed. And I really hope I encourage you to do the rest of the show in that voice.

I think it would get a bit annoying to be honest. I think it would do. Now, Theo is very keen for me to point out to people watching on Spotify and YouTube that I've turned a light on.

Yeah. You look like you've opened a chest of treasure. I tell you what, I look like one of those top Nazis looking into the Ark of the Covenant at the end of Raiders of the Lost Arc.

You do. Or Donald Trump um when he had that light and the Saudis with the orb. with the Yeah. Yeah.

Let's get into the battle of Britain. So, the Lufafa have been raiding Britain since June, but it's in August that this becomes properly intense. They want to target the British airfields. They want to lure out Britain's planes and destroy them and win control of the skies before the invasion. And people are interested in the Battle of Britain. Tom, there's a podcast. I hate to do this because it's a rival show. A sister show.

It's a rival show. It's a sister show. Well, it's a brother show. Yeah, neighborly. It's a neighbor show.

It's a fraternal show. Um, and it's called We Have Ways of Making You Talk. And it is co-presented by my brother James Holland and his friend Al Murray. And they have been doing a series on the battle of Britain just recently on that show. And my brother has written a brilliant book on the battle of Britain. And if you are interested in all the details of the various planes and the strategy and the infrastructure and everything, that is the place to go. Let's try to summarize their series in about 2 minutes in a way that will probably horrify your brother and his co-presenter. So basically, thanks to Churchill's rhetoric, we in Britain think of the RAF as the few, you know, against overwhelming odds. Actually, the in human terms, the difference isn't that great. The RAF have about 3,000 pilots, the Germans maybe 4,000. Yeah, but that's we're still there. You know, the Germans have more and that's how we

like it, isn't it? They're more. All right. And not just Yeah, of course we like it when the odds are against us. Now, among the RAF crews, there are loads of New Zealanders and Canadians and checks and most famously polls. You know, it's great to have the polls back on the show. The polls are the biggest contingent. There's about 150 of them. And of course, for them, this is absolutely personal. So, one of the most famous Polish aces was a guy called Boris Robinski. And he said, I just did that so I could say the name frankly. Um, he said, "When you saw the swastika or the black cross on the aircraft, your heart beat much quicker. It was a feeling of absolute vengeance." And people who listen to our episode about the fall of Poland will understand why.

Absolutely. And we I think in Britain tend to think of the Lufafa as um a bit like uh those kind of enemy ships in Star Wars full of um you know

tie fighters, interchangeable uh baddies in mad uniforms. But the Luftvafer pilots are humans as well right Dominic?

Oh, that's profound. That's nice. Because the point of this episode is to look at the Battle of Britain from the point of view of the Germans. So tell us about the Lufafer and the pilots and and all of that. So they are in their late teens as the RAF are they late teens or early 20s most of them because to be fighting you know such altitude at such speed you have to be young because you need really really good reflexes basically if you're 30 you're too old you know it's like being a kind of a footballer or something I think cricketers but Tom I I know a cricketer who's an ancient and makes a huge halu about how good he is do you know such a person

yeah well I would have been shot out of the sky obviously within 5 minutes. The Lufafa much more than the RAF encouraged the cult of aces. We don't really think of aces as being a World War II thing. It's a World War I thing for us. But the Lufafa there these guys there's a guy called Adolf Galland and there a guy called Vernon Moulders and they both recorded more than 100 victories each and the German press made a huge deal of these air races. Well, I suppose Herman Guring had been an A70 over the the battlefield of the Som with the Red Baron. So, you know, he's in command of the Luvafer. So, you can see where it's coming from. He loves an ace.

Yeah, exactly. There's a brilliant book on the battle of Britain by a guy called Steven Bungay and he quotes a German left tenant called Hans Otto Leing who's 23 and you get the same mixture of excitement and fear and bravado and exhilaration that you do with RAF pilots. So Lesing wrote to his parents on the 17th of July, I'm having the time of my life. I wouldn't swap places with a king. peace time is going to be very boring after this and inevitably he was killed the very next day. Do you think on the part of the German pilots there's a feeling that almost of sporting rivalry with the RAF pilots in a sense you know these are peer air forces meeting on the the skies over southern England are you know a sporting arena a little bit I mean I think there sometimes this sort of sense oh they're the nights errant of the skies but actually you know when you read the memoirs of pilots they would often say

over time as they lost more and more friends they grew to hate and theense sense of it being, you know, a jolly sporty encounter

that fades and it fades, I think, particularly for the Luftwuffer because they are fighting a losing battle

and also they're fighting over enemy territory, aren't they? So, if they get shot down, then they've lost as well.

Yeah, exactly right. Um, so they have various disadvantages. Some of their planes are brilliant. The Meshaches 109s. We're getting into the planes now. This is very dodgy territory for us. The other plane they have, which is a 110, they're much heavier and less maneuverable. The RAF have two fantastic planes in Spitfires and Huracans. The British have radar, which is a huge advantage.

And this is crucial, isn't it? Yeah. It's effectively the world's only air defense system.

And the state of Nazi uh intelligence is so poor that they didn't even realize that the British have this. So, here's the thing. Nazi intelligence, you know, howard intelligence in the fall of France has been awful, but Nazi intelligence in the battle of Britain is really, really terrible. And a lot of that this I think is a result of their ideological arrogance. And I guess our national state of defeatism being what it is, the British listeners may find this surprising. But technologically, Britain is very, very advanced relative to Germany. And that's the kind of key thing, isn't it, that with the with the um with the radar and the kind of air defense system generally, you know, you don't really think about it until it's pointed out. But the Lufafa never really catch British planes on the ground.

No, because the British know they're coming. The British always know that they're coming. And that must be absolutely crucial to Britain success in the Battle of Britain. I think another really important element though is that the Germans are lying to themselves the whole time. And so actually quite senior people don't realize that their tactics aren't working because you know no one is telling them the truth. William Shyra, who we've quoted a lot, there's a point in August when he meets a fighter pilot in a Berlin cafe. And this guy says to Shyra, "It's only going to be two weeks, two more weeks, and we'll finish with the RAF. In a fortnight, the British won't have any planes left." I mean, the irony, you could not be more wrong. In late August, Field Marshall Kessle Ring, who's one of their top commanders, is told, "We, the Luafer, have only lost a tenth of our fighters, but the British have lost half of

theirs." And this is mad. It's completely wrong. In fact, across August, the Germans have lost about 900 planes and the British have lost fewer than 500 planes. You know, the Germans are losing, they're hemorrhaging planes, but also they can't replace them. And this is massively important. And so again, this is a reflection of Britain's industrial power that they are much more proficient at that. You must have read um David Edgton's book Britain's War Machine. this kind of revelatory book about just how good at killing

Britain's industrial capacity was in the Second World War. I found it completely eye opening. Yeah. Because in our last episode, we had the stuff about the little ships. You know, the romantic, sentimental, nostalgic vision of how Britain won the war. We we've already joked in this episode about Dad's Army, the idea about ordinary people with wooden, you know, fake rifles preparing to fight the Nazi war machine. The truth is if there's a if there's a top war machine in Europe, if not the world in 1940, it's the British one, the most scientific, the most technologically advanced, all of this. Now, some of this is actually down to Neville Chamberlain.

So, Chamberlain from 1938 had massively accelerated Britain's aircraft program. So, by the second half of 1940 in the Battle of Britain, British factories are producing twice as many fighters as German factories are. They're building them so quickly that in early September, despite their losses, the RAF actually have more planes than they did in late August. You know, they're losing planes, but they're also building them so fast that the Germans just can't compete. And it's at this point the Germans start to change their tactics. They started with these kind of attacks on air fields,

but then, you know, Guring is always changing his tactics and making a mess of it. They decide, well, we're going to have huge mass raids with massive escorts, kind of fighter escorts of bombers, and we'll target Britain's cities. So then you have these huge battles. So there's one on the 7th of September over Kent and Essex involving more than a thousand planes. And then still the Germans are coming off worse. So that day they lost 41 planes and the RAF lost only 23. The most famous example was on Sunday the 15th of September. And that's the day that you know is now called Battle of Britain Day. And Hitler ordered a massive attack on London. Basically a last throw of the dice. It's clear that the Lufafa's campaign is not working. We'll draw the RAF out and maybe we'll be able to annihilate them. Hundreds of bombers with this gigantic fighter escort. And RAF fighter command scrambled everything

to face it. So you got hundreds of spitfires and huracans going off, streaking off into the sky. I mean, for people watching from down below, it must have been an incredible spectacle. And the result is a resounding British victory. So the Lufafa lost about 60 planes that day. That took their losses for the week to 175 planes. And their Germany's factories just can't replace them in the time. And their their human loss is actually pretty unsustainable. So by this point they've probably lost killed, wounded or captured about 4,000 pilots, twice as many as the RAF have lost. What we're 6 weeks into this campaign now and it's clear even to the Germans that Guring is not winning, that his boasts have not been vindicated. And Hitler summons that weekend his armed forces chiefs and he says to them quite frankly, you know, the preconditions needed for Operation Sea Lion are not yet there. and his agitant who was

called Nicholas von Bellof said it was pretty clear that he'd given up on the thought of invading England. The great unknown, the fairly improvised crossing over the sea frightened him. He was unsure. And that is something new. That's the first in this whole story in Hitler's aura of invincibility and of certainty. He doesn't know what to do. And 3 days later, they postpone operation sealine indefinitely. It's never really brought back. I mean, it's difficult for Hitler, isn't it? Because the aura of invincibility does depend now on this sense of conquest after conquest of speed and remorseless progress. And that the channel is a real problem. How do you cross it? And I guess also that the truth is, as I understand it, that there was never really any prospect of the Nazis invading Britain. Um, operation sealine was never really going to work out.

Hitler himself is nervous about it. His various commanders are nervous about it.

Hitler's preparations for the invasion are very kind of half-hearted. And I I gather that even Churchill, you know, in his private moments thought that it was unlikely, but he wanted to stiffen the sinus of the nation. Yeah. So he kind of hypes up the invasion scare to rouse British opinion. Max Hastings's books on on Churchill and on the Second World War, he basically says, you know, Churchill deliberately, even cynically, sustained the spectre of invasion because he was worried that basically the British people were ultimately quite lazy and passive and that if the fear passed that they would sink back into their torper of 1939. So in 1974, veterans of the Second World War, sort of senior those senior officers who were left and current commanders from both the British and the West German military played out this really big war game at Sandhurst. And they concluded, you know, unanimously

that a German invasion would have been a complete disaster that basically only the first wave of German troops would have got across. they wouldn't have got very far and they would all have been killed or captured and it would have been a catastrophe for the Vermack.

Well, I've I've mentioned We Have Ways of Making You Talk. They did an excellent episode on that and I think that um as I remember from it in that war game they had to kind of rig the weather patterns to ensure that some Germans could get across and even then as you say they was they were kind, you know, they couldn't establish a beach head. But none of that is to downplay the scale of Hitler's defeat in the Battle of Britain because it does I suppose offer hope not just to Britain but to occupied Europe and conversely

you know it it you know there's a kind of canker of doubt in the Nazi high command and perhaps even in Hitler himself.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. So once the battle of Britain is is over as it were, it kind of evolves into the Blitz.

Well, kind of accidentally, don't they? Because the German air force accidentally drops bombs on I think is Islington.

Yeah. And then the British reply by bombing Berlin. I mean, from a German perspective, that really is one of the first big shocks of the war. The funny thing is the RAF attack, it was 100 RAF planes, was the first retaliatory raid on Berlin. They didn't really cause much damage. I I I can't even remember how many people they killed, if any. Then there are three more raids in rapid succession after that. So it it is definitely experienced by Berliners and by the Nazi high command as a a massive provocation. And for Hitler, this is a real shock. You know, he gives a furious speech a few nights later says if the RAF keep doing this, we will wipe out their cities. because it's the last thing he wants is for a a public that he knew before the war were quite anxious about being dragged into a world war for them to start losing heart because their own cities are being targeted.

And it's partly because of that I think that the Germans move towards the bombing raids of the Blitz. So these are eight months of nightly raids on British cities. And basically the plan is Hitler orders the Lufafa to break Britain's morale, destroy their factories, destroy the docks, destroy the railways, the supply chains, the fuel depots and so on and so forth. And there are two or three very infamous moments. So Coventry on the 14th of November, the cathedral was destroyed. I think we've mentioned this before in the rest of history at various points. The city center about 600 people killed. London at the end of December the 29th. This is the famous scene. You know, you can Google it. The one of the most famous photos of Britain ever taken. The great clouds of smoke over St. Paul's Cathedral, which is emerging kind of undaunted. Yeah. From the from the fires. On the 10th of May, 1941,

this was I actually didn't realize this until I looked it up. Twice as much of the city of London was destroyed on that night as had been burned in the Great Fire of London in 1666. So about 1,500 people killed.

Yeah. It's one of the three great disasters to overwhelm London, Buudacus Revolt, the Great Fire, and then and then that day in the Blitz.

And yet and yet none of this is remotely enough to bring the British to the table. And in fact, the head of Lufaf operations told the army chiefs a month into the Blitz, he said, "I would need four times as many planes as I've got to have any effect really on British morale to make any real difference." And actually, you could argue by the time it's scaled down, the Lufafa have killed about 43,000 people, which is a lot, though nothing compared with the numbers of people who die in the bombings of Germany and Japan at the end of the war.

I have to say most historians agree that this is completely and utterly counterproductive. I mean, Max Hastings makes the point. It's actually an interesting counterfactual. If Hitler had just left Britain alone and just said, you know, stew on your island, who cares? I don't care about you. People would have got kind of bored of the war, you know, they'd have got bored of all the rations and the economic provations and so on. Yes. Can't we build bridges with Europe? Right. Exactly. But as it is, he kind to use Churchillian rhetoric. He kindles in their hearts a fire that will never be extinguished.

Right. I mean, people are furious. And then because the bombing of Britain cities,

I mean, is this not the universal lesson of bombing campaigns? Yeah. That they are counterproductive and that they always just stiffen the morale of people who are being bombed.

Either kill loads of people or don't bother, I would think. I would say is probably the I mean, that sounds very callous. I mean, if you're going to kill 40,000 people, you're not going to make a massive difference on Britain's morale. Anyway, so where's all this leave the Germans? So, we're now in the autumn of 1940 and some of that hysterical enthusiasm of the summer has faded. It's pretty clear now the British are not going to crack. And actually, now I think for the first time, it dawns on a lot of ordinary Germans. We are in a replay of the First World War. After all, the one thing we wanted to avoid, a long war against an island nation with an empire and a fleet and loads of factories and a huge economic infrastructure.

And Hitler's confidence, notice at this point, there's a change in his mood. You know, he wanted to get Britain out of the war, but now he can't really think of a way to do it. And there are one or two other disturbing signs. So that autumn, even before the presidential election, Roosevelt agrees the destroyers for bases deal with Churchill. Basically, the British will get 50 very elderly and frankly useless American destroyers. Uh one of uh Churchill's admiral said they were the worst destroyers I'd ever seen. And in return, the Americans get leases for bases in the Caribbean and in Canada.

And it's around this time that one of Hitler's agitants says of him, "The Furer seemed visibly depressed at the moment. He doesn't know what to do next." Now, there are a couple of options. So, Grand Admiral Rada says to him, "What about the Mediterranean?" You know, a slightly Napoleonic strategy, actually.

Get the Italians on board, get the Spanish on board, maybe the French, take Gibralta, take the Sewish Canal,

take Malta. Yeah, exactly. Malta, North Africa, maybe Turkey. And Hitler's quite interested in this and then he has a series of disastrous meetings. So first of all with Mussolini, Mini is more interested in the Balkans.

Yeah. He wants Greece, doesn't he? His greedy eyes are fixed on Greece. Yeah. And then two very low moments in Hitler's life. First of all, when he goes to see Marshall Pa, Marshall Pan says, "You know, personally, I'd love to join the war and collaborate with you, but then I'd need the National Assembly to approve it, and I really don't want to have to recall the National Assembly." Well, maybe talk about it another time.

Probably pass on that. Yeah, probably pass on that. And then a fun date with General Franco. This I find very amusing.

So, this is the dictator of Spain who Hitler had helped in the Spanish Civil War. They meet at the station at in the border between um France and Spain. Hitler has very little to offer Franco, but Franco has turned up with a massive wish list of like food supplies and arms supplies and all this. Hitler has never met Franco before and he finds Franco a very very objectionable man. As Ian Kershaw says, he considered Franco fat sworthy with a droning singong voice reminiscent of an Islamic prayer caller. And Franco makes a dreadful faux pow at this meeting. He says to Hitler, "Do you think you've won the war?" I don't think you've won the war. I think even if you got across the channel, the British will never give up. If you got across the channel, the British will just go to Canada and they'll continue with their fleet from Canada with the backing of the United States. And Hitler is absolutely furious at this. He can't

believe that Franco is dissing his war effort. And he actually gets up and goes to leave and has to basically be persuaded to sit back down at the table. Anyway, they continue the meeting and when they get up to go finally, Hitler says to his men in German, literally, there is nothing to be done with this bloke and Franco says to his foreign minister in Spanish, these people are intolerable. They want us to come into the war in exchange for nothing. And then after this, Hitler goes and meets Mussolini. Yeah. Masini says, "How did it go with Franco?" And Hitler says, "I hate him. I would rather have three or four teeth taken out than have another meeting with that man." He describes Franco as a Jesuit swine.

Isn't Hitler very contemptuous of the fact that Franco has made the Virgin Mary a brigade commander in the Spanish army or something?

That's right. Yeah. Well, the thing is about Franco that's quite confusing is Franco pretends to be a fascist. You know, he has the trappings of fascism, but Franco, unlike Hitler, is much more backward-looking. you know, he's basically a ultra Catholic, ultra reactionary, you know, let's turn back the clock to the 16th century, that kind of thing. And Hitler has no patience for that. He wants to power forward into a new order and a new age.

Yeah. Cuz that's the essence of of Mussolini and of uh Nazism is the combination of the ancient and the the the gleamingly modern.

Yeah. It's the ancient and the ancient, I think, is what Frank like Salazar actually in Portugal.

Like Salazar in Portugal. Yes. Hitler heads back to Germany by train and he's very downcast. And so it's now that he returns to that scenario of invading the Soviet Union and he says to his generals, "Look, it's win-win. We'll get all the raw materials that we are currently importing from the Soviet Union. We'll get all the grain from Ukraine. We'll get oil from Romania, oil from the Caucuses. We'll get that colonial empire in the east which we've always wanted for our living space. And above all, this is the only way to send a message to Britain.

As he tells formerly general, now Field Marshall Fedor vonBach, the gentlemen in England aren't stupid. You know, they will realize there's no point in carrying on the war once Russia has been beaten. And what's also been playing on Hitler's mind in the autumn of 1940 is what's Stalin up to? What if Stalin goes into the Balkans? What if Stalin gets the oil in Romania? Molotov comes to Berlin in November and it's a very difficult meeting. Hitler and Ribbentrop say to Molotov, "Yeah, we think you should you should be looking at India.

You should be looking at the Middle East." And Molotov isn't interested in that at all. He's talking about the Balkans. And Hitler finds this very disturbing. And he says to his agitant afterwards, "Molotov has let the cat out of the bag." You know, basically the Russians are going to muscle in on our territory. M

and so it's about a week or so after that that Hitler sends his agitants east and he says to them, I want you to go into the forests of East Prussia and to find me a good spot for a secret field headquarters. And this is what becomes the wolf's lair. They do love a sinister name for a lair, don't they? The wolf's lair is brilliant. I'm just going to This Polish tourist board should be paying me for this. It's now in Poland. I had a very very happy day there with Samuk Jr. poking around the ruins of like Hitler's bunker, Gurring's bunker, all this. It's incredible. It's brilliant. There's no health and safety, although very pitiful attempt to health and safety. So, you can basically explore all these tunnels and stuff.

Well, I think that's what Hitler would have wanted. He would have been contemptuous of health and safety, wouldn't he?

Well, yeah, you're right. 5th of December, Hitler meets Spineless Brow and Hder, and he says to them, "The Russians are inferior. Their army has no leadership. I want to get this done. My mind is made up. let's attack Russia and force Britain out of the war before the Americans can get involved. Now, the fascinating thing I think is that his generals who have been horrified by all his suggestions up till then about attacking other people are not horrified by this one. Now, partly I think it's because he's been talking about attacking the Soviet Union for 7 years going back to 1933 when he first became chancellor. So, they've had a lot of time to get used to the idea.

So, they've had time to adjust to the the plan. Yeah, they knew this was always going to come. They all agree that Stalin's empire is rotten and will fall. That basically the Red Arm is useless. And they say, "Oh, come on. The people in Barus and Ukraine and stuff, they'll probably welcome us with open arms." And this is their ideology again. They think the laws of racial science mean we're bound to win. The Slavs are useless. They'll never be a chuton, you know, an Aryan. They're riddled with bulcheism. And so this will actually be dead easy.

It'll be so much easier than fighting the British. What's not to like? And so it is that on the 18th of December 1940, Hitler issues one of the most fateful orders in history. Fur directive 21. The German Vermacht must be prepared to crush Soviet Russia in a quick campaign even before the conclusion of the war against England. They'll go into the Soviet Union. They will seize Leningrad. They will seize Ukraine's industrial heartland in the Donbass. And above all, they will power towards the Soviet capital in Moscow. And the name of this operation was originally Operation Otto, but now Hitler personally renames it in honor of the crusading emperor Frederick I. It will now be called Operation Barbarasa. And Dominic, is that where you are ending this episode and the entire series on that cliffhanger?

It is. On that bombshell, on that cliffhanger. That's the way I That's the way I work.

Oh my god. Well, ladies and gentlemen, we will be back next year continuing this story, the epic history of the Third Reich. We have war in the Balkans. We have the invasion of the Soviet Union, but we will also be looking at the home front, the euthanasia program, and of course, the beginnings of the Holocaust. So, Hitler obviously a very bad man. Our next series will also be about a very bad man, and that very bad man is Jack the Ripper. as we head into the shadows of late Victorian London, telling the story not just of the murders, but of the broader context, the lives of his victims and the world of late Victorian London. Members of the Rest is History Club will get all five of those episodes on Jack the Ripper on Monday. And if you want to join them, then please sign up at the restistory.com.

And of course, Tom, Christmas is coming. So rest is history club membership makes a absolutely splendid Christmas gift for the history loving family members or friends in your life. And actually, do you know what? I think people should treat themselves a little bit more than they do. So why not treat yourself to the rest history club membership as a little Christmas treat? Raise a glass of eggnog to that. And for now, goodbye. Bye-bye.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Would Britain Have Beaten an Invasion in 1940?"?

Tom Holland (Host), Dominic Sandbrook (Host), Winston Churchill (Guest).

What is "Would Britain Have Beaten an Invasion in 1940?" about?

The content examines Britain's precarious position during the Battle of Britain in 1940, analyzing the potential consequences of a successful German invasion through the German perspective. It emphasizes the existential stakes of the battle for Britain, European freedom, and the future of civilization.

What is mentioned in this The Rest Is History episode?

253 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Britain, Adolf Hitler, Operation Barbarossa, Germany, Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, The Rest is History. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Would Britain Have Beaten an Invasion in 1940?"?

The episode runs 1 h 8 min; the transcript is about 12,235 words in 141 timestamped sections.

More from The Rest Is History

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 21, 2026.