American “Heritage” vs. American History | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

What this episode is about

The content explores the complex relationship between American "heritage" and true historical narratives, emphasizing the need for a nuanced discussion about America's identity and who belongs in its narrative. Featuring insights from historians, it examines how this debate has evolved and its implications for the nation's future.

Key takeaways

• America's identity isn't bloodline; it's a shared belief—anyone can become American in 20 minutes through ideals.
• Heritage discussions often reveal more about insecurities than facts—democracy is inclusive, not a gated community.
• Anglo-Protestant roots are often cited in 'heritage America' debates, but they overlook the melting pot that defines us.
• Historically, becoming American has been about ideals—not ancestry. Current debates miss the point entirely.
• If it takes 12,200 years to make someone French, America’s invitation lasts less than a lunch break!

Who speaks in this episode?

• Jon Stewart (Host) · 35 min speaking
• Dr. Alan Gellzo (Guest) · 26 min speaking
• Joanne Freeman (Guest) · 26 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Joanne Freeman, Dr. Alan Gellzo
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Ground News
3. 30:00 – 40:00: Civil War
4. 40:00 – 50:00: Civil War
5. 50:00 – 1:00:00: 1924 Immigration Reform Act
6. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Civil War
7. 1:10:00 – 1:20:00: HelloFresh, Joanne Freeman

Notable quotes from "American “Heritage” vs. American History | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"

• Be joined by Dr. Alan Gellzo, professor of humanities at the University of Florida, and Joanne Freeman, professor of history and American studies at Yale University and host of History Matters.

  about Joanne Freeman · at 2:04

• It's a mission. Ground News gives readers its easier, more datadriven way to read the news. What they do is they pull thousands of news articles from around the world, organize them by.

  about Ground News · at 15:29

• Look, at, the, percentage., Look, at, the numbers of immigrants who fight in the ranks of these civil war armies. You're you're talking about something like 180,000 Irish just in the Union Army.

  about Civil War · at 40:30

• All facing internally about what it is to be Americans. So 1924 the immigration reform act is a nivist act where they're basically saying actually we are white Europeans but…

  about 1924 Immigration Reform Act · at 52:05

• Okay., We're, dealing, in, 1924, with, an, era of tremendous disenchantment on the part of Americans. Here this marvelous European civilization has spent four years in the trenches blowing its brains.

  about World War One · at 54:50

• Bolsheviks you know we're defining ourselves by what we don't want whereas, you, know, you, jump, ahead, to, 1965 And we're defining ourselves as a much more egalitarian…

  about 1965 Immigration Act · at 58:40

• I'm just going to say it right now. We made it. The podcast has made it. We're the big leagues. The episode is sponsored by the number one meal kit in America, HelloFresh. Yeah, come on.

  about HelloFresh · at 1:15:05

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Joanne Freeman — Person · Main guest (historian) · 3 mentions · first at 2:08
  Explains how 'heritage American' maps onto historical nativism/whiteness boundaries, how founders’ ideals were broader than founders’ own assumptions, and how definitions of 'white' shifted over time.
• Dr. Alan Gellzo — Person · Main guest (historian) · 1 mention · first at 2:04
  Provides historical framing on American identity as a creed/proposition, nativism as anxiety, and examples from Washington, Hamilton, Lincoln, and immigration history.
  Okay folks. So we are delighted today to be joined by Dr. Alan Gellzo, professor of humanities at the University of Florida, and Joanne Freeman, professor of history and American studies at Yale.

Companies & orgs

• ASU University — Company · Affiliation · 2 mentions
  Affiliation of one of the guests, Joanne Freeman, providing context to her expertise.
  Be joined by Dr. Alan Gellzo, professor of humanities at the University of Florida, and Joanne Freeman, professor of history and American studies at Yale University and host of History Matters.

Places & events

• Civil War — Event · Key argument · 10 mentions · first at 34:09
  Referenced as a defining moment in American history, especially in discussions about heritage and immigration.
• 1924 Immigration Reform Act — Event · Key argument · 1 mention · first at 52:12
  Discussed as a nivist act that restricted immigration based on nationality and race, reflecting anxieties of the time.
• 1965 Immigration Act — Event · Key argument · 2 mentions
  Contrasted with the 1924 Act, representing a shift towards more egalitarian immigration policies.
• World War One — Event · Key argument · 2 mentions
  Referenced as a context for the 1924 Immigration Reform Act, highlighting a period of disenchantment and isolationism.

Sponsors

• HelloFresh — Product · Sponsor · 3 mentions · first at 1:15:14
  Promoted as the number one meal kit in America, offering chef-crafted recipes and fresh ingredients.
• Ground News — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 15:14
  Promoted as a service that aggregates and organizes news articles by story, with visual breakdowns of political biases.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 the American experiment. It is a risk that we take, but it's a risk because we believe that there is something higher and nobler that we can appeal to in our common lives together.

0:12 That's, the, Wii. That, should, be, the, Wii., That's, the, Wii. That's it. That, should, be, what, brings, us, together is that understanding that and we don't we're not going to all agree on where we should be.

0:23 I'm, getting, chills,, guys., Keep, going. I'm getting chills. Wait, let me get my fight.

0:37 Ladies, and, gentlemen, welcome back to the Weekly Show podcast. My name is John Stewart. We have been gone a week. It was obviously a holiday week, the Thanksgiving holiday where we all sat down and and ate delicious food and watched football games and and and tried not to think about what it's actually about because that's but it's it's so apppropo to uh uh a new national conversation that is brewing in this country about who is America, what is America, who belongs here, who doesn't belong here. Uh clearly the president has ideas and states them with such grace. uh from the Oval Office, but I thought uh boy, wouldn't it be nice to get a little bit of nuance and and into this conversation with people who understand what we were at our founding who we were at our founding, what we were meant to be, and and how it uh grew from there, and and the different times within our history where uh the

1:37 arguments over who we are and where we should come from and what America actually uh means and who it belongs to really bubbled out into the public sphere. So we are going to jump right in with that. I'm both guests are just so arerodiodite and knowledgeable within this uh sphere. So we're just going to jump in with them. Here they are. Okay folks. So we are delighted today to be joined by Dr. Alan Gellzo, professor of humanities at the University of Florida, and Joanne Freeman, professor of history and American studies at Yale University and host of History Matters.

2:13 Guys, thank you both very much for for joining us. The discussion today is who is America? What what are we actually there there seems to be as uh we enter this sort of draconian immigration enforcement period and a kind of uh a much more of a sense of this new terminology of heritage uh Americans having kind of being slightly above the rabble of of other Americans. I guess the discussion today should should probably start in kind of defining this I idea. Is is heritage American is that is that defined through a a religious lens? Is it through an ethnic lens? Is it through just purely a time lens? Joanne, what's your understanding of of what heritage American even means? Well, my understanding based on what I've seen the people who are using it is fundamentally it says you are a heritage American if you trace yourself and your roots back in American history to a certain degree. I think your question

3:29 about lenses. There are different lenses. I think some people would argue um it it goes back to a sort of Anglo Protestant idea of what America is that goes all the way back. Some would argue that it it although it's not put this explicitly that there's a white component, right? So if you look at the long history of America, as far as nivism goes and as far as white nationalism go, that term certainly plugs into a lot of that.

3:57 But, those, are, certainly, two, very different very different things. So the the I guess the more benign uh definition of it is well we're seeing it through a lens of those that have been here uh longer whereas the more maybe loaded uh one is yeah it's for white people. It's a nationalist like we're looking for white people. Uh Allan, what what's your understanding of how that's being used now? And is it being used cynically? I'm tempted to say cynically because I don't think I don't have a sense that the people who are using this kind of terminology or trying to formulate these kinds of ideas really have a particularly serious grasp of this heritage thing they're talking about. If we if we want to talk about an American heritage, it seems to me the most obvious the two most obvious things are the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. And neither one nor the other tell us anything about where

4:50 people are supposed to have come from or what their lineage is or how long they're supposed to have been here to qualify. It it sometimes it said that it takes it takes 12,200 years to make somebody French. I mean

5:03 what, they, have, to, age, it, like, Rogford. What why would they do that? Depending, on, where, in, France, you

5:09 you've, got, to, get, through, an, entire, wine seller. But but in America you can become an American in 20 minutes. You you read the declaration you read the Constitution, you sign on

5:19 you, understand, it. You're, in., That's, it., My, favorite example of this is my great-grandfather from Sweden. He immigrated in the 1880s. He could not wait to abjure the king of Sweden. really

5:35 he, he he, wanted, to, be, an, American, even before he left the shores of Scandinavia. He wrote out longhand in pencil the Declaration of Independence the Gettysburg Address. He had no use for monarchs and aristocrats.

5:52 Mhm., I, have, another, great-grandfather who departed from Bavaria in the 1890s came to Chicago, a little classic Jewish tor. He had come from a small town just west of Munich

6:10 called, Dau. Oh, Lord., And, he, came, in, the, 1890s, from there. And, I, am, so, glad, he, did.

6:17 Boy,, you're, not, kidding., These, are people who wanted to be Americans and their desire was focused on those great documents, those great ideas of what it is that we sign on to which is a proposition. This is what Lincoln says at Gettysburg. What how did we come into existence for scoring 70 years ago? We came conceived in this idea of liberty and dedicated to a proposition. This is not about heritage. Anybody anybody can lay hands on this and Lincoln himself I'm going to quote Lincoln a lot. No surprise.

6:53 Well, that's, your, that's, your, Bailey Wick. I I, could, I, can, come, back, with, Hamilton. Yeah. Okay. Right.

6:58 Lincoln's, your, Bailey, Wick., Joanne Freeman's going to come in with Hamilton and I'm probably going to quote Spiro Agnu. So we're going to we're going to run the gamut.

7:07 But, but, seriously,, Hamilton, is, another example. Where is Hamilton born? He was not born on the upper west side.

7:13 On, the, islands., Yeah,, maybe, more, on, the upper west side of St. Kits, but you know, he's in the islands. He

7:19 he's, a, bastard, right? I'm, not, using, that, as, a, projorative term. I'm literally describing the man.

7:25 But, this, is, it's, it's, a, tension. And, all, and, my, ancestor,, this, is, this, is the same thing. You come and you find in America this openness. It It is a regime of reason. It's a regime of creed. It's a regime of belief

7:40 and, enlightenment. Exactly., and, people, there, was, a, great poem written in 1916 and it it was a poem simply entitled I am an American and the first verse of it was all about someone who was descended from you know the sons of the Mayflower and all that kind of thing. The second was about someone whose father had been imprisoned in Siberia whose mother was a castoff from the great white zar. They were nothing more than a wisp of straw. But when they came to America, the wisp of straw became a man and a woman. And that is the great if if there is a heritage that is the heritage that we lay claim to.

8:26 It's, that, ideal., But, you, know, it's, and and it's fascinating because the tension between as you uh beautifully put Allan the proposition that drew people uh versus the idea of a kind of native definition or ethnic definition is there from the start because Joanne look we are a proposition. You can read the declaration, but the Constitution does define white Americans as being above other Americans. It it's this is not something that is born of thin air. And it seems to be uh the the difficult question that we have had to answer over these 250 years. and and later in the discussion we'll walk through the way we try to answer it with 1924 immigration and 1965 immigration and all those different ways. But this idea of America as a proposition is obviously laid out in those documents. But so is the other idea,

9:30 right? And, how, do, we, square, that? Right?, Um,, and, part, of, the, way, that, we square that is by acknowledging that the ideas that the founders founders put out there into the world, you have to say it that way when you say the founders. Um the ideas that they put out into the world were ideas that they had an understanding of, meaning they were in a world in which they were thinking of white men with a certain amount of property as being the people that they were largely talking to. But that the ideas that they gave birth to in the Declaration of Independence in the Constitution were ideas that were broad enough, you know, uh the human condition, right? They're there these they're broad ideas that later generations all kinds of marginalized peoples could point to those documents and talk about those ideals and own those ideals and as Alan was just suggesting use them to say well you know

10:31 I'm an American too I understand these documents so it isn't as though whatever the founding generation of people thought about the boundaries of who has certain kinds of rights and who doesn't the ideas that they put forth or the proposition that they put forth was broad enough that it was open. I mean so there is kind of an openness to that period as to what an American is. It's one of the things I love about the founding period is that they don't fully know what an American is at that point.

11:04 Did, they, feel, homogeneous?, Did, they think of whiteness as a homogeneous or did they view it as whiteness is ScotchIrish and German is actually not? Like how did they view that lens? Or did they literally think of it as white and black in the way that uh they framed it in uh uh the three-fifths clauses and things like that?

11:27 Well,, so, it, depends., I, mean,, and, this is, I'm sure, a point we're going to get into as we talk today. different moments in time, different people have been considered white or black.

11:36 Right., It, expands, period., Exactly., So, in this period, sometimes people are upset at the Germans. You know, they're coming in here and they shouldn't be here and they aren't us. You know, the Irish

11:45 Yes., That, has, happened, in, history. People have been upset with the Germans.

11:48 I'm, talking, about, early, early., Fair enough. Fair enough. Um, the, the, Irish,, right,, that, the, Irish for a period were not considered to be white. Um, so the founders certainly are assuming that in the realm of political power they are in a in a white universe but they're also assuming that they're making things up as they go along right? They use the phrase all the time experiment. We're engaged in an experiment in government and they thought about things. It was improv which they say later, those who managed to live to an old age say people write to them all the time saying, "Tell us about the founding." And what they say actually John Adams is great on this over and over and over again. John Adams says, "We didn't know what we were doing.

12:33 Wait,, we, we, had, no, idea. He's, telling, us, that, now." Yeah., Yeah., It's, true., It's, true., But Madison Madison makes this comment. He's he's writing a letter. He says, "We we are in a wilderness without a path." Now, he didn't mean that in a projorative sense. He said, "We really are on."

12:51 They, all, say, that the, doorstep, of, something, entirely, new. They, all, say, that, in, 1789.

12:57 But, you, didn't, think, at, some, level, they they knew that they would be deified.

13:02 Well,, they, understood, that, they, were founders. Okay. Right., And, so, past, a, certain, point, they also understood that their reputation would be bound up in what was happening. You know, I mean, Thomas Jefferson really wanted to die on July 4th, right? He he was

13:18 he, pulled, it, off., He, did, it. He, did., I, He, kept,, he, was, sort of semi-conscious and he kept regaining consciousness and asking people, "Is it the fourth yet?"

13:26 And, they, said,, "No,, he, kept, going.", You know, the fourth he came along. So they understood to a certain degree they were founders. They were educated to believe you know, they were reading Plutarch's lives of the great Greeks and Romans. The greatest thing you could do for your country was to to be a statesman, to be a a founder of a nation. And they wrote all the time to each other saying, "Can you believe our luck? Can you believe that we're here at a moment when we can do this? But along with that goes a huge sense of risk, contingency responsibility. They're thinking about posterity. And they were thinking about national identity and national character in such a concrete way. There's a whole discussion in the first year or two of the government in which they're worried about how should elite politicians, how should the people in national government actually dress, meaning how much lace

14:18 seems too aristocratic and monarchical. And the reason that matters is they thought, well, people are going to look at us

14:24 and, if, we, look, like, aristocrats,, if, we look like monarchists, they will think that that is what we are as a country. So they're really in a really interesting sort of self-conscious way crafting an idea of what national character and national identity is.

14:41 So, as, as, we, look, now, as, to, like, what, is actually the American character, they were down to like should we wear wigs? Maybe maybe we shouldn't wear wigs. But Alan,

14:51 wait,, John,, I'm, in, favor, of, people wearing wigs. Settle, down,, Alan., Now, this, is, a podcast. People can't see.

14:57 We, have, a, we, have, a, follically challenged American. actually two of them on the program today. Allan and myself.

15:02 That's, right,, folks., You, know,, I, I've, gone, on, about this before and I'm going to continue to go and wait. You tell me what I can talk about, what I can't tell. No, you I'm going to keep talking about this until you get this damn thing. Ground News website. It's an app. Really? An It's a website and an app. It's like uh what do you call it there? Razles candy and it's a gum. It's it's a website and an app. It's a mission. Ground News gives readers its easier, more datadriven way to read the news. What they do is they pull thousands of news articles from around the world, organize them by story. Each story comes with visual breakdowns of political biases, of ownership, uh, headlines. It is a response to fear and angerbased media, which I watch and absorb a lot and it is slowly killing me. And Ground News doesn't dictate how the reader should think or feel. They just aggregate and they

16:01 organize the information so you can be better informed. Go to groundnews.com/stewart. Subscribe for 40% off the unlimited access Vantage subscription for yourself or if you send it as a gift. Brings the price down to like $5 a month. That's groundnews.com/stewart or scan the QR code on screen. you know when when we talk about that. So there is they were specific in their conversations about but they were separating it seems Allan who would be a statesman sort of this the different levels. It's not that they didn't think in terms of a cast society. They really thought no monarchs but there were going to be elites. There were going to be elites because they expected they hoped that the leadership of this new experiment was going to come from people who had education, they had talent, they had demonstrated service. What's interesting is that it's never connected to birth. I think one of the most

17:06 unusual provisions in the constitution is the one is very brief phrase which says there shall be no titles of nobility

17:17 which, means, there's, no, aristocracy right it's, it's, not, it's, not, going, to, happen. So for them, all right, it's not going to be what we might call the level playing field where anybody can walk in. But there is an expectation that it is going to be open to a remarkable degree of people who have made themselves. And no one's a better example of that than Alexander Hamilton. Of course, that meant he was also sometimes resented for that.

17:41 Well,, didn't, he, view, himself, as, a, kind of renegade and as you said earlier, a bastard that he felt he had to fight

17:49 to, to, be, viewed?, Yes,, he, did., Yeah, he, actually, a, lot, pers, will, towards, the end of his life he will say things like this is really upsetting me and am I not an American? Why is this upsetting me more than some other Americans are? At towards the end of his life he says this American world was not meant for me. He always understands to a certain degree that he isn't quite in the same place as others. He he would have been called in the time period a mushroom gentleman.

18:23 A, mushroom, gentleman. A, mushroom, gentleman., What, that, meant, is I, don't, want, to, talk, about, what, that means now, but talk about what it means.

18:29 That's, a, good, Yeah., At, the, time,, um, what it meant was a person without roots, a person who sort of has arrived and sprung up in the dark. And we don't know who this person is. You know, people who are not necessarily of known background not necessarily elite, but who are these people? you know, we don't know who they are. He came up out of nowhere. So, he certainly would have represented one of those people. But I want to add to what Allan said because absolutely they assumed that people in power would be a kind of an elite, not aristocrats, would be educated. But the fundamental thing that was most experimental about the new government was that it would be grounded on public opinion

19:12 consent, of, the, governed., Well,, even, more than that, what the public believes is what matters. What the public so so to a greater degree than a monarchy. This is why they feared demagogues because anyone can get the public to think something one way or another and can then grab the government and warp it into being something it's not supposed to be. So

19:33 that's, why, they, valued, education,, I guess, to the extent that they did. Absolutely., Jefferson, thought, that, um all white men should have three years of education because only if you're educated will you and particularly I should say in history will you recognize the threats to the republic and be able to see them when they're coming and not get taken in by them.

19:54 But, how, do, you, square, out?, So, it, just said all white men should have three years of education. Did they conceive of immigration? Did they see themselves as homogeneous? Did they view the fissurers between let's say you know Baptist and Lutheran and Calvinist and uh you know Quaker uh did they view those fissurers as anything other than just disagreement civically or did they see some of those things as more uniquely American? Did they think Protestant was American? Catholic was well maybe we can teach them.

20:38 Let's, take, Washington, as, an, example because Washington himself speaks to a lot of this.

20:43 Washington, starts, off, the, revolution, by saying we don't want black recruits for the Continental Army.

20:49 And, people, come, to, him, and, say,, "No,, no, no. That's not going to work. We're not going to be able to have a Continental Army if that's going to be a rule. If it's going to be an all-white organization." So that the Continental Army from very early on starts to develop black recruits, small black units. By the time we get to 1777 and Burggoyne surrender in New York, one Hessen officer is saying you can't you can't go anywhere in the American encampments and not find black soldiers. So right away you might say that any gesture towards exclusion gets defeated by an American reality. And Washington yields to that. When Washington is president, the leaders of the congre the Jewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island write to him. They're very they're very anxious. What's going to be our f are we going to be part of this American experiment? And his response which I strongly suspect was written by

21:45 Hamilton, but his response is, "This government gives to bigotry no sanction, gives to persecution, no assistance, and asks only that the members of it behave themselves as good citizens." It's the only standard Washington lays out.

22:06 See,, this, is, this, is, where, I, think, I have I I come up against the most difficulty that I have. So that is an absolute statement of moral integrity squared with a gentleman who has slaves.

22:20 That's, right. And, this, is, where, I, think, where, we, get hung up is is the distance between the ideals of these statements for posterity that ring so beautifully on the long moral, you know, universe uh in the arc of history versus the reality of how they established the country. Look, they could have obviously established a religion like the Church of England

22:46 but, they, did absolutely undercut whatever moral imperative is in the Constitution with the realities of forming a union. So Joanne, explain how we're supposed to discern that now. Is it the idea that we were supposed to do better than them? Well, they certainly did not assume that they were the best and that everyone coming after them was going to be downhill. And this is part of what Adam says in his old age when people keep saying, "Tell us about the founding." He essentially says, "Look there was no golden founding period."

23:21 Okay? And, if, you, think, there, was,, you're, going to think it's all downhill from us which is not the case. You have to judge the government as you go forward in the way that you're going to judge the government. But look for example as to how they sort of are squaring things and not really. Look as one would at Jefferson, right? So Jefferson in his old age is asked by many to do something, say something against slavery, come forward, endorse a project of someone who's going to take his enslaved population out west and then free them. And Jefferson's response is basically on the one hand admirable and on the other hand that's for future generations to take care of. So he's sort of bowing to the idea and then stepping back and saying that's that's you know future generations will be dealing with this but I myself in this moment will not. So and and I should say that the founders aren't one big lump of

24:18 a blob of people who agree. Yeah., It's, not, a, monolith, either., Right. Right. And some of them are, you know slaveholders and some are not. But that was not something that that a lot of people actually did square. They understood that the ideas and ideals that they were using to found the nation were distinctive and were different from where they had come before and meant something different and that a republic was a really different kind of government. They also were knew I mean they used throughout the revolution, you know, we don't want to be enslaved to England.

24:51 They understood that language because they were enslaving people. I mean, I think it's Samuel Johnson who says, you know, the people who are yelping loudest um about being enslaved over there in America are the people who own slaves. So, the the contradiction was really apparent, but it was kind of as with so many other things to some degree pushed off. Oh, the next generation will deal with that people down the road

25:17 based, on, the, idea, that, the, important thing was the union. But Allan, did they then conceive and this moves the conversation then from sort of this idea of where they were that when they were founded into that next step which is and how did they believe that they would prosper in the sense of did they conceive of immigration traditionally in the way that we think. you know, they they came from England and you know obviously there were Spanish colonies and obviously the French were here and then there were Native Americans that were here and uh there were slaves that were here and various different groups.

25:53 How did they perceive of the nation growing into its close for the earliest generations from the constitutional convention onwards when the rules so to speak are laid down there there are two minds just as there are today there are some people who would say we don't want to be swamped by all these foreigners but they are by no means the dominant voices Overwhelmingly, the voices are "We want people to come here because look, we've got a lot of space and we don't have much labor.

26:30 We, have, openings,, right? We, need, more, hands, to, help., We're, so we're going to open this up." You might say, "What was the vetting process for immigrants in let's say 1790?"

26:40 Answer,, there, was, no, vetting, process. The, boat, would, tie, up, at, the, warf, in, New York or Philadelphia. People would get off the boat and they're gone. They're out into the landscape. There's no When Alexis Tok got off the the ship in New York in the 1830s, the first thing that impressed him was there was no official there to greet him to to Right. There was

27:08 no, no, passport, stamp,, no, line,, no, real passports. No, passports,, nothing

27:14 at, that, period, of, time., No. So, you, you, have, people, Yes., who, are irked at the behavior of some people who will they say these are foreigners. Classic example is citizen Edmund Jane representing the new French Republic and making himself obnoxious, especially obnoxious to Washington

27:33 as, they, do. And, yet, at, the, same, time,, after, the French Republic decides that it's going to yank the credentials on Jana, um it's very clear that they're not going to not only going to yank the credentials, but they're going to guillotine him when he goes back to to Paris. Wow. And Washington says, "No, no, no. We can't let that happen." And Jane settles in the United States, moves to upstate New York, marries the go the daughter of the governor of New York, and becomes an American citizen. And in fact, he's still sitting on his property in the Hudson River Valley when Alexis Toqueville shows up to pay him a visit and ask him what's it like being French in America. The the capacity of Americans to absorb this is simply phenomenal.

28:17 Absorb., That's, it., that, boy, do, I, like that word absorb. And, when, you, turn, to, Abraham, Lincoln, in the 1830s and the 1840s, yes, you have nivists, you have people who are saying we should be exclusionary, not Lincoln. Lincoln is saying the strength of this country is coming from people who are coming from all over, but who are drawn they're attracted by what he called this electric cord, the electric cord of liberty. an elector, he said, that runs through the hearts of lovers of liberty wherever. And for him, there was simply no question. Germans in Illinois, yes.

28:55 Other constituencies, yes. He's willing to speak to and and bind them all together.

29:00 And, this, higher, purpose, I, is, always, a part of the lore. this idea that we are different. That uh not only do we have a frontier and manifest destiny within this country, but the country itself is a different uh beast than all of the other nation states that uh these fellow travelers are coming from. What they're saying is release those bonds and join us in this pursuit of independence and liberty. But Joanne, then Allan used a term that I think we hear today, nivism or nationalism or those kinds of things. But what is a nivist then in 1810?

29:39 You know, are are is a nivist somebody who thinks only Protestants, only whites? Is a nivist somebody that groups all Christianity together? Is a nivist somebody who says no, it's all European. Uh h how do they define is it defined narrowly at that time?

29:59 It, is, defined, narrowly, at, different times in different ways. So for example for a time nivists would say Catholics don't count. It's not even all Christians. It's like Catholics are not properly.

30:12 Only, Catholics, didn't, count. Well,, Catholics, have, this, scary, guy,, the pope, and people are going to be loyal to him

30:18 and, not, loyal, to, this, government., So Catholics, they can't be proper which, by, the, way,, for, for, people, that don't understand, like was all the way up to John F. Kennedy. Like when John F. Kennedy was going to become president there hadn't been a Catholic yet. And people still thought this is the 1960s. Well, he's not going to be loyal to the United States. He's just what the pope's going to tell him something to do and he'll just go do it.

30:38 Exactly., So, that, that, term, shifts, and changes over time as to who counts as a native with nivist understanding.

30:44 But, is, the, nivist, movement, is, it, is, the strength of the nivist movement in sort of British Anglo culture or are there German American nivists? like what's what's the what was the larger preponderance of it? Well, I mean, I think in the early period, everyone well, not everyone, many people are from somewhere else. As a historian, you never say everyone only unique first. You're in trouble if you do, right? But um, so many people are from somewhere else, right? That nivism, like, let's look for, let's go back to Hamilton again. Let's look for a moment at Hamilton. Hamilton writes in 1802, 1803 something that sounds exceedingly anti-immigrant.

31:28 And he says things along the lines of you know, these people from other countries, they're going to come here. They'll be living according to things ideas they've embied in the countries they come from. They're going to have different views of us. He goes on and on and on and on about how, you know that's a horrible thing. But then he goes beyond that to say kind of along the line of what you're saying, John.

31:49 So, for, that, reason,, they, shouldn't, vote, but we welcome them here. They, should, come., We, want, everybody, right? Hamilton of all people. He

31:58 we, need, labor., We, don't, need, citizens. Well,, and, there's, so, much, land, here, right? Look at that. And people came in part to the United States because unlike landlocked Europe, there was land here. And people felt that well, you know, you can begin a new here. You can come, you can get land. People in the early period called Pennsylvania the best poor man's country because there was so much land there that people could claim and then become farmers and gain independence

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33:41 That's a frames.com. Promo code TWWS. This deal exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. So when did the idea Allan, let me ask you, when did the idea more traditionally then of immigration come to the forefront in in the American experiment? Is it is it a post civil war or is it a pre-Ivil War idea? because you said there's nobody there

34:16 right? You, you, come, to, this, country,, you, just find a dock, you you line up, there's only people there if it's slave trade or ships,

34:24 right? Or, if, you, want, citizenship or, if, you, want, that's, a, different, issue

34:29 and, there's, and, there's, a, process, for that. Okay. Well,, but, there, isn't, a, uniform, process. I just had

34:34 That's, right. a, wonderful, grad, student, who, wrote, her dissertation on uh Oh,, HISTORIAN, FIGHT, HISTORIAN, FIGHT. Um I one of my that I've never had that said before and it sounds so fun. Um a student of mine just wrote a dissertation on the very fact that there was no set way to become a citizen that it depended you know like for example how do you get back into being a a citizen if you were a loyalist and you fought against the United States people said well you know in New York maybe it's easier than in New Jersey. Um

35:08 there, was, no, federalized, process., It, was state-to-state. There, was, not, a, federalized, process. There were not passports. It was very much a negotiated thing with different terms in different places.

35:19 Oh,, that's, interesting. A, lot, of, it, varied, from, state, to, state. Certainly, in, terms, of, how, it, was enforced. There were no ID cards and particularly I mean the great the most important moment in terms of the life of a citizen participating in this experiment is voting. Well, when what what happened when you went to vote? Well, you didn't walk into a voting booth and you didn't have a list of candidates that you check off and you didn't have to have your your name in in a judge of elections book.

35:52 No,, you, you, walked, up, to, what, was, really just a window in a store or a post office. You had a ballot yourself and you handed it over

36:02 and, then, they, would, give, you,, I, guess, an embroidered I voted, not a sticker. like a patch.

36:07 No,, not, even, that., Yeah., None, of, this, I voted business. Sorry. No, that doesn't happen.

36:13 Well,, depending, on, the, period,, too., You didn't even have a uniform ballot. No. There there's one election in which uh in Pennsylvania in like 1792 1793 people who wanted Jeffersonian Republicans to win wrote out you would have to write the names of the candidates you wanted to vote for wrote out thousands and thousands of ballots with the names that they handed to people like go hand this in here you know and if that you misspelled a name in writing it out you that could be argued that you weren't really voting for that kind of person.

36:45 So not Wow., And, if, there, was, some, kind, of question as someone standing around at the the voting place said, "Look, this this fellow who just handed that vote in, uh, I saw him get off the boat in Chicago 3 weeks ago." What would you do? You you could make a protest to the judge of elections. The judge of elections would turn around then and have this person swear an oath. Yes, I'm a citizen. It would be it.

37:11 We, are, a, chaotic, mess, at, this, point. Is, it,, Isn't, it, Isn't, it marvelous? It is. I have to say it's it's incredible because it shakes the narratives. The narratives we learn are generally so they lack nuance.

37:26 Uh, they're, sort, of, black, and, white. There is this idea of this is the process. You have no idea. And I think we would all benefit to understand the improvisational and chaotic nature of perhaps mostly well-intentioned people trying to create uh a union of high moral integrity but also some functional backing. Uh when did they start to bring order to the idea of who was going to be an American and how they would achieve that? I mean it's a process right it's a long process so in the early period they are experimenting and making things up and impro improvisation is the best term because that is indeed what they're doing as you work your way through the 19th century bit by bit you do have federal ways of doing things national ways of doing things passports become something that people can actually have although that's into the 19th century um often some of these things happen because there's so much I don't want to

38:27 say chaos us but disagreement about certain things that someone finally comes forward and says we need to actually iron out how this works. We need to actually come up with some kind of set way to do it.

38:39 So, the, first, hundred, years, it's, it's kind of the wild west. So Allan let me ask you when when I hear discussion today of heritage Americans they almost always and it seems kind of anacronistic they point to the Civil War. They say you're a heritage American. For instance, uh JD Vance when he talks about heritage Americans, he said, "My my ancestors who fought in the Civil War sure as hell have more of a uh standing in this country than people who just got here." But it's almost always tied to the Civil War, not to the period before that. And I'm curious if either of you has an idea of why that is. I think it's because the Civil War is a big box event and people can refer to that

39:27 but, why, wouldn't, they, refer, to, it, as, the re why wouldn't they say my people came here in the revolution? Or does that exclude so many of these nivists

39:37 that, they, don't, they, don't, want, to, start history there. They want to start history where they actually enter the picture. It's it's also because in the revolution you're dealing with people in tricorn hats and and small clothes and and stockings and buckles.

39:52 It's, unfamiliar, and, it's, not, it's, not, as cleancut. Yeah. As, the, Civil, War,, right?, So,, it, is British versus Americans, but you know that's that division isn't going to help us a lot if you're trying to divide people into boxes. But looking at the Civil War, clear sides.

40:08 Yes., Or, supposedly you, can, say, a, lot, more, generally., Well, that's true. Not really, but still the idea being that as you just put it, it's a it's a big box event and it's handy for pointing fingers at and claiming belongingness in a way that the revolution even at the time wasn't that.

40:27 But, look, at, the, Civil, War, itself. Mhm. Look, at, the, percentage., Look, at, the numbers of immigrants who fight in the ranks of these civil war armies. You're you're talking about something like 180,000 Irish just in the Union Army

40:44 right? You're, talking, about, 200,000, Germans. You're talking about 80,000 Sweet. You have got whole units of the Union Army at Gettysburg whose officers are still giving them orders in German because that's how many Germans there are.

41:02 Literally, speaking,, German. Literally, speak, these, are, units, in, the 11th core of the Army of the PTOIC. So we, we, are, talking, about, ar, ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar, ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar armies, which are chock full of immigrants themselves. And when Lincoln comes in November of 1863 to dedicate the soldiers national cemetery at Gettysburg you have some what 3,500 Union burials there. The percentage of immigrants who are buried there. I can take you right on the outer rim of of of of that semicircle of graves, that huge semicircle. I can take you right to the very first one you would walk through in the central. This is a kid who was born in Austria under the Austrian Empire.

41:47 Wow. And, he, was, and, he, died, at, Gettysburg., He was an officer in a New York artillery battery. Is someone going to take away his title to be an American? Well because it's so interesting you you you bring it up because if you think about this nivist movement and it's it's hard to separate it from the MAGA movement except for maybe the more uh extreme versions of it that are more in the like, you know, real true white nationalist world, but they generally fetishize the iconography of the American Revolution and the documents of it. It's a lot of we the people on the buses. It's a lot of all that. But when they want to start history, they generally start it at the Civil War. And I I I wonder if it's because they view it as these are the people that we want to credit with ending slavery and therefore they are the beginning of this new uh generation of America. I'm not sure.

42:45 Let, me, give, you, some, iconography, in, in response to that. I'm going to give you the iconography of a photograph. The photograph of a black Union sergeant with a cane resting on a cane in one hand and in the other hand the regimental colors of the 54th Massachusetts Volunteers. Joanne, I'm sure you've seen this photograph. This is this is Sergeant William Carney. Carney was one of the he was born in slavery. He's one of the recruits to this new black regiment, the 54th. They go into action in July of 1863 at Battery Wagner. He rescues the regimental flag. He's hit three times.

43:23 Once in the chest, one in the leg, once in the arm, drags himself back to the aid, the first aid station he comes to hands over the flag before he collapses and says the old flag never touched the ground boys.

43:39 Wow. Six, months, before, that, man, did, not, have a flag. He couldn't have because of Roger Tony and the Dread Scott decision. But in the Civil War, he has it

43:52 right? He, has, that, flag., That, flag, is, his., He is an American. Right., He, is, a, heritage, American., And they don't normally count that.

43:59 That's, right., That's, right. Well,, that's, the, thing,, right? Right., That's, what, I'm, trying, to, get, to. Right. That's the thing is that when you look at the revolution or you look at the Civil War and you look at it with a glossy simplified view and you talk about flag waving and you talk about you know, us versus them, you erase the complexity and you erase the subtlety and you erase the very things that make this a a country that's always evolving and always developing. you know, our sense of history and our willingness to get beyond the glossy cover. You know the people who are looking at the Civil War and saying heritage American they're erasing in a sense some of the people that Allan here is talking about.

44:46 But, isn't, that, what's, necessary, to, the nivist experiment? If we put that in nivism only works and and Allan said it I thought perfectly before which is that it's a bit of a cynical it's it's a phrase that's used to be more palatable to those that use it as a cover for a certain prejudice.

45:08 Well,, precisely, and, that's that's, that, now, that's, the, point., It's, a cover. Yes. And that's also, you know obviously linked to people who are interested in us not studying certain parts of our history and not thinking about certain things that happened in the past and only thinking about the sort of grand glorious moments, right? I mean, we're coming up on 2026 and it's a moment, you know, those kinds of anniversaries. I mean, I was the the bicesentennial basically made me a historian because it was everywhere and it got me really thinking about big ideas. But those kinds of anniversaries are reckoning moments. And if you head into those moments unwilling to wrestle with anything other than the flag waving glorious things, you're basically declaring that you're unwilling to embrace your country in its entirety and really think about what it is

45:57 and, complexity., Yeah. And, where, it, might, be, able, to, go., There is a there is a trajectory in this American experiment and it's one we can respond to or see people respond to in two different ways. One is to say, "Oh look how dramatically they failed to live up to these expectations or these promises. That means the expectations and the promises are are a null set." And and that that's a very pessimistic view. Ironically, it is also the view adopted by every monarch, every aristocrat, every tinpot dictator who's ever come along, right

46:35 who's, happy, to, say,, see,, the, Americans make a great deal out of all these wonderful things, but look, they don't live up to it. So, we can't take that seriously,

46:43 the, contradictions, right? All right,, that's, one, way, of, doing, it. And if we yield to that, then we find ourselves thoroughly in agreement with the dictators and the tyrants. Is that where we want to be? All right, that's one thing. Second thing is to say the trajectory of this American idea is always in motion. We are always discovering new ways of opening this up. I remember 2 or 3 years ago I was watching a video of some Chinese dissident. These were students. They were protesting policies of the Chinese government. One of them, one of them stood up at a barricade, a police barricade, and he's shouting at the top of his voice in Mandarin, but he's shouting, [snorts] "Give me liberty or give me death."

47:30 Wow. And, I, thought, at, that, moment,, John,, at that moment, I thought the American Revolution is not over

47:38 right? And, it, is, not., And, the, the, alternate, to the pessimistic uh concession is to say we are still in process. We are still discovering what is what is in the marrow of these ideas of of that proposition

47:57 and, it's, to, acknowledge, that, ideas matter. Yeah. Right., So, the, ideas, and, the, ideals, that came out of that founding moment they didn't live up to them and many of them didn't want to live up to them

48:10 but, the, ideas, mattered., They, mattered, to future generations marginalized people

48:16 and, were, enduring., They, were, enduring ideas. Exactly., And, all, kinds, of, people, could took look to them, could point to them and use those ideas in a way that opened the world to them as well. You know there's all kinds of scholarship on how the Declaration of Independence has been used and reused and reused in places around the world. The ideas matter even if the people who created them didn't live up to them. So, I agree with what Allan is saying. We can point to the founding and say, "Well, fh to that because they didn't live up to what they were saying." Well, no, they really didn't. And they did a lot of things wrong and they were injust in a lot of ways and slavery was there. It's written into the Constitution, but the ideas that they put forward mattered. I just in the class I just was teaching about Hamilton and Jefferson, we looked at Jefferson's last letter. He was invited

49:07 to go to Washington DC to, give, a, speech, on, the, 4th, of, July, and he couldn't. He actually died the 4th of July that year.

49:15 It's, a, good, excuse, not, to, go., I, know, it, is, a, pretty, good, excuse., Yeah, he he he pushed to make it that far as I said earlier, but he says in the letter that, essentially,, it's, going to, be, a horrible paraphrase. We now are in a time where people understand that they don't exist for the wealthy and the powerful to tread on their backs and keep them bowed down. We live in a time when people around the world understand that we have a different understanding of the rights of of humankind.

49:47 Right., Bernie, Bern, Oh,, I'm, sorry., Uh folks, today's episode is sponsored by Incogn. Now, I don't know what you're doing, at, home., I, don't, know what, you're doing on the computer. I don't know what you're doing on the websites. And no one else should know it either. Thousands of companies are collecting and trading your personal data. Your personal data. Let that sink in. And you know nothing about it. Scammers are using this information to craft convincing fishing emails, which truly every old person that I know has fallen for. Fishing emails, tax calls. Next time you get the million call from the IRS demanding $5,000 in back taxes paid by Visa gift cards that you'll be wishing you had incogn helps protect your privacy. Takes your personal data off the market. They reach out to data brokers on your behalf requesting that your personal data is removed. With Incogn's custom removals

50:44 feature in the unlimited plan, you can point to any website where your personal information is visible and one of their privacy agents will take care of the rest for you. Go to incogn.com/stewart and use code stewart for 60% off. Incogn helps wipe yourself from the internet. They can't harm you if they can't find you. Click the link below to claim your 60% off and get your personal data off the market. incogn.com/stewart. Now, we're going to make a little time jump. So, we've got this idea of a country that's not really formulated like a normal country. It's got this ideal and it's also got a frontier. So it's got this expansionist uh kind of mentality and the borders are not drawn hard and fast, but at a certain point the country sets like a fontineel. it just sort of sets and now we've got real borders and now we've got to look at so I want to draw attention to immigration reforms when it starts to

51:48 happen because there's sort of two tent posts here that I want to talk about the one in 1924 and then the one in 1965 because I think they are in many ways diametrically opposed yet continue to reflect the kind of battle that we're all facing internally about what it is to be Americans. So 1924 uh the immigration reform act is a is a nivist act where they're basically saying actually we are white Europeans but even within that I think they they say basically Germans, Irish, Greeks are not white European. They they are they are not allowed to immigrate here. Is is that correct?

52:36 Well, there are quotas that are they're, quot, I, see., I, see. And, how, do, they, how, do, they, establish the the who is properly white? Why is it that Irish and Italian and Greek and maybe it wasn't Irish, maybe it was Italian and Greek were not considered in 24? Because it was an explicitly nivist bill, was it not? It it is also true though that that Irish and Italian, you know, there's a long history going all the way back to the 18th century of people declaring that they're not white, right? All the way back to the late 1790s

53:14 right?, Right. Um, and, early, 19th, century. So,, southern, southern, and, eastern, Europe is declaring we're not white like them. They're declaring it

53:23 at, times., At, times,, yeah., I, mean,, that's that's part of what's fascinating about this whole thing is the way that this evolves, that there isn't in a set standard that has persisted throughout the entirety of American history. And that in a given moment, those kinds of boundaries, the lines that people try to draw say more about that moment in time and the biases and goals that people in that moment have than about the American nation as a whole.

53:50 So,, what, is, the, bias, they, have?, So,, they exclude Asian people almost entirely. They severely uh restrict Slavs and Poles and Jews and Italians and and Greeks. What is it then they're trying to say about who the heritage Americans are? Because certainly in this country at that time there are Poles and Italians and Jews and and Asians. So why are they saying actually is it because of their religion? Is it because of where they're from? Is it their complexion? Wh what is the dividing line?

54:31 I'm, not, I'm, not, going, to, try, to, be, too much of an expert about 1924. I'm a 19th century, person,, but, I, feel, all right. You know what? I'll take I'll take this part of the conversation.

54:42 Okay., Having, having, issued, that disclaimer, yes, I, think, one, of, the, key, factors, that, goes into this is World War I.

54:50 Okay., We're, dealing, in, 1924, with, an, era of tremendous disenchantment on the part of Americans. Here here this marvelous uh European civilization has spent four years in the trenches blowing its brains out. And what what do we have as a result of it? Well, what we have is a deranged Europe which is going to get more deranged very quickly. We have a bolevik regime in Russia which scares us silly. So what are we trying to do? It's almost like we are trying to do a kind of disinfectant. We're trying to say we don't want to go in the direction that the Europeans have shown that they have gone. And there are going to be some Europeans who are in our minds more dangerous than that. But it is a it is it is a moment of of real angst and disenchantment. This which is not to say that that's an excuse, but it is to say this is the environment in which the 1924 legislation emerges. So that you're you're saying it's a

55:56 prophylactic. It's basically saying here are the elements we think are involved in this world conflration that led to uh this terrible, you know, four-year slaughter. We are not going to allow that element.

56:11 Yeah., This, is, what's, called isolationism. Okay. Because, we, go, into, the, we, go, into, World War I with Woodro Wilson banging the drum for how we're going to make the world safer democracy. What did we make it safe for? We made it safe for the Viimar Republic. Oh yeah. That was a real accomplishment.

56:27 Right., Right. So, Americans, look, at, this, and, in, the 1920s it's this gigantic pullback like World War I. This was not a good idea. Woodrow Wilson did not have good ideas. Woodrow Wilson threw Eugene Debs into jail and destroyed his health. Uh we had the persecution of all kinds of dissident that we're not going to do that again. So we're going to put up this barrier because we don't want any influence that might push us in that direction. Is it a is it a panic ex respon? Yeah, it is a panic response. I I would add to that by saying that if you're fighting a world war that's characterized by all the things that Allan just said, you're going to emerge from that moment really thinking about who we are

57:10 right? And, who, they, are,, that's, kind, of, a defining moment, you know, and I would say um generally speaking in American history, the question of who is the Wii and is there a we is there something that unites all Americans? you know, we live in a moment where we're kind of having a Wii crisis in which, you know who is the Wii? Um, I don't think right now most people agree that there is one

57:32 and, we're, seeing, the, rise, of, isms,, we're seeing fascism rise, we're seeing bullsheism rise, uh, you know communism, Marxism, uh, you know, all those things. And we're defining ourselves as these people are the cause of that. And we don't want that strain to infect here. Is it with that?

57:53 They're, defining, us, as, not, that. Not, that, right?, We're, not, that, and, we're, not, that and we're not that and okay, fine. But what are we?

58:01 And, that, is, not, where, we're, going, right now. That is not a conversation we're having. We're not talking about um democracy. Part of what we are, we're a small d democratic country. What does that mean? Uh we're a representative country in which representation matters. We're a country grounded on public opinion. We those conversations aren't happening

58:22 and, public, opinion, changes, on, who, we, are as we as we see now because certainly if you look at us post World War I and we're saying we don't want

58:33 Germans, and, Italians, and, anarch, you, know because that's anarchists and we don't want Jews and Poles cuz that's you know uh Bolsheviks you know we're defining ourselves by what we don't want

58:46 whereas, you, know, you, jump, ahead, to, 1965 And we're defining ourselves as a much more egalitarian society that what we're we're defining ourselves as actually we are that idea and we're going to live that idea. Is that fair to say or not? And then there is a long silence.

59:11 It's, the, long, silence, of, the, absence, of a 20th century history person. Let, me, tell, you, something., You, guys killed it with the 1924 stuff. You told me you didn't know anything. And I was like, "Holy [ __ ] I wish I didn't know that." You You two have forgotten more than I will ever know uh about this stuff. I'm only The reason why I'm I'm sort of trying to frame it that way is I'm trying to understand how we do have that discussion because the way we're having it now is with a

59:41 cudgel., Mhm. The, way, we're, having, it, now, is guys in face masks come in with flashbang grenades and arrest an 18-year-old validictorian who came to this country at 7 years old. And maybe that's because it's the absence of clarity in who we think we are and who we think we might want to be.

1:00:07 It's, not, even, just, the, absence, of clarity. It's the masking literally of clarity.

1:00:13 These, are, people, who, are, masking themselves. So we don't know who they are.

1:00:17 Right? So, not, only, is, there, not, a, discussion, there's a deliberate effort to not have that discussion and to create an environment in which anyone can point to anyone. Well, not anyone, but the the folks who are in power and are being given a certain kind of power can point to anyone and say, "Not us."

1:00:35 But, I, understand, it, in, the, in, the framework of 1924. You're coming off of World War I. What is the framework for me to understand the president of the United States sitting in the Oval Office saying Somali are terrible people? I don't understand the framing of it. I It's in the context of an American experiment that is an ideal, not always one that we lived up to. How is it that 250 years into the experiment the our elected leader is pointing at at faceless people and and absolutely denying their individuality which is the inaliable rights that we all have according to the the document of our our founding. How do how am I supposed to understand that when I there is no world con confilration like what do you guys have an opinion on that or a sense of

1:01:32 well, I, I, I, do, want, to, add, to, that., So, on the one hand saying Somalians are a horrible people is a horrible thing to do to go the next step and say so we should throw them out

1:01:44 right so, they, shouldn't, be, here, that's, the part that suddenly not only moves into hatred and ugliness because certainly there have been other presidents that have said sort of hateful ugly prejudiced things to go the next step and basically say we have to throw them out of here they don't belong here and I've got my guys in masks And who knows if I'm going to set them out to, you know, we're in a moment where there's a particular president who not only says the ugly words, but then is willing to enforce them

1:02:18 right, in, a, way, that, isn't, constitutional, but, he, is, reflecting, a, deep, sentiment amongst I'm not going to say the majority certainly, but certainly amongst

1:02:27 a, portion, of, of, of, people., Allan,, you've been you've been pondering. I'm pondering where the common threads are in these, let's call them upsurges waves of of nivism, of suspicion, of hostility.

1:02:44 I, think, the, common, thread, is, anxiety. anxiety that when you create a nation based around an idea, based around a proposition, based around a creed connected with that, there's there's an anxiety that this might not be enough because we're told over and over again by so many others that if you're going to have a nation, it's got to be built out of these very solid materials like race or religion or language or culture. You if you're going to be a German you've got to talk about the Tutber of all or or the the German vulk or or something like that.

1:03:26 There's, a, comfort, in, the, similarity, right? Because, it, feels, like, it, has, substance. It feels like it's material. Feels like it has something that you can actually sit down on. Whereas when you talk about living the life of an idea, that sounds that sounds so much more nervous. How how do we how do we ensure the safety of an idea? And I think when you encounter nivism in the 18th century, when you encounter it in the 19 the waves of it in the 19th century into the 20th century into our own time, common thread here is anxiety. We we it's not that we're unsure of who other people are.

1:04:05 We're not entirely sure of who we are ourselves and, and, if, we're, going, to, hold., And, I and I think that that is manifest not only in the kind of anxiety, the kind of hostility that we show in terms of immigrant groups and have shown in in the past. It's also the way we treat each other. Look at how we talk about each other today.

1:04:26 We, talk, about, we, we, bandandy, around these these toxic terms, fascist socialist, bullshik, you you name it.

1:04:35 Enemy, of, the, people,, enemy, state. We, do, that., We, do, that., It, it, is, an, act we commit on each other over and over and over again. This is happening everywhere.

1:04:44 But, is, that, different, Allen?, Certainly in in the revolution and in the civil war, you know, the the verbiage around you know, certainly uh the founding fathers and people that were running were I mean they were vicious.

1:04:58 Absolutely. There, is, there, is, a, common, word, we, have to come back to. Mhm.

1:05:04 And, I, almost, want, to, say, Joanne, was saying about the importance of we and I'm thinking the most important we that we encounter is we the people

1:05:13 right? And, that's, something, we, always, have, to bear in mind. But there is a particular word that I want to draw people back to. I draw my my students back to and that is citizen. Because there is only one title

1:05:26 Mhm. that, Americans, enjoy., That's, the, title of citizen. Everything else is temporary. Everything else is is is improvisatory. The fundamental fact is citizen. What is a citizen? And if we could for a moment learn to look at each other as citizens instead of the way we treat ourselves, the really the really beast

1:05:50 can, trust, each, other., the the, beastly, way, that, we, treat, each, other today, the names

1:05:58 that, we, call, each, other,, you, know,, one faction calls this, one faction calls that.

1:06:01 John,, I've, been, called,, believe, it, or not, I've been called everything from a Troskyist to a Christian nationalist.

1:06:10 Who, calls, historians, names?, Wait, a minute. Don't, even, ask, me, what, I, call.

1:06:16 Really? Yeah., Yeah., Just, Yeah., Get, two, or, three historians together. Why are people who who attacks you guys? Because I I would think that that's generally is that because you're uh at conferences where you might give speeches about certain things and that's where it comes from. I I'm a little blown like I'm used to me getting yelled at but that's I'm

1:06:38 it's, cable, television, and, people it's, the, public, and, it's, it's, because, I do a lot of public facing work and so on social media in print

1:06:49 people, will, weaponize, your, work, and politicize it and attack you. Oh, yeah.

1:06:56 Oh, absolutely. And, this, happens, this, happens, all, the time. It happens across the board. I have just about completely decoupled from social media

1:07:05 largely, because, I, just, can't, stand listening to, the, way, people, carry, on.

1:07:09 It's, certainly, a, net, negative, in, most people's lives, I would say. And, yeah,, and, it's, it's, poisonous, and, it is a contradiction.

1:07:16 I'm, up, there. I, am, I'm, up, there., I'm, with, I, I'm, up there, for, the, [clears throat] Constitution.

1:07:21 Joanne's, out, there, with, a, tweet, storm. She's going nuts. Twitter., She, doesn't, care.

1:07:25 I, am, not, on, Twitter. Joanne's, a, braver, soul, than, I, am., All right. I'll I'll be happy to concede.

1:07:30 Let, me, ask, you, this, then, because, that, is it maybe because Allan I thought the the word that you framed as it's anxiety

1:07:38 that, [clears throat], there, is, an, anxiety and through citizenship is ultimately maybe what makes this feel so tenuous

1:07:46 is, our, anxiety of what it means to be a responsible citizen. to not really have the tenth posts in place to know what that is and then to not trust that others are also living up to. So that like when they say we need screening screening for what and what is the metric? We need people that love this country love it this much

1:08:13 to, the, moon, and, back, or, just, to, the moon. What are we if there are no metrics for citizenship? Is that anxiety based on who ex now I'm living next to somebody who celebrates a different holiday than I do, who wears different colored clothing. Now, if you're from New York City, you're used to this. It's the beauty of it. It's the beauty of being able to go to these different neighborhoods and experience culture but also assimilate into this. It's the melting pot. But John, that's a risk you see.

1:08:46 Yes. And, and, and, in, the, long, and, in, the, long run of of human history, it's a risk that many times over and over again people and nations do not want to take. The American experiment and Washington uses the word experiment. Lincoln uses the word experiment. It is a risk that we take. But it's a risk because we believe that there is something higher and nobler that we can appeal to in our common lives together.

1:09:16 That's, the, we That, should, be, the, we that should be what brings us together is that understanding that and we don't we're not going to all agree on where we should be.

1:09:27 I'm, getting, chills,, guys., Keep, going. I'm getting chills. Wait, let me get my fight. I can I just have you do that generally speak because that'll I would find that so inspiring.

1:09:43 There, there, is, a, great, there's, a, great moment in in the movie Glory which is about the 54th Massachusetts.

1:09:49 You're, back, in, Civil, War., You're, back, in your comfort. I'm, back, in, Civil, War., Back, on, my, own turf.

1:09:53 Hit, me. The, Denel, Washington, character., They're about to go into action the night before. They have a prayer meeting and in that prayer meeting Denel Washington who's not long and short his character is is not long and short on prayer. He he gives this marvelously eloquent little speech. He says whatever happens tomorrow we know we men. And in saying that there's there's the we

1:10:18 we, are, in, this, together right, defending, an, ideal. Exactly., Exactly., Here's, the, thing,, and I love what you both said a little while ago about the anxiety. A country that's created based on, you know, race or um you know, a certain battle being fought in the distant past or whatever. There are ways in which you can found a country that feel stamped in a a a sort of concrete rooted reality. And that's not what the United States is. And by definition, as you've both been saying that's going to create anxiety. And that goes, you know, again, all the way back to quote unquote my time period constantly. They're trying to figure out what brings us together. But that is the challenge. If you in almost all of my classes, I quote part of the first paragraph. I'm going back to Hamilton.

1:11:09 Going back to Hamilton. The first paragraph of the first Federalist essay. Yes., Yes., And, Hamilton, says,

1:11:15 "Uh, oh.", And, now, Allan's, off, his, chair. Here we go. Come on. Bring it home. Hamilton basically says I will try to bring it home. Hamilton says you know we are essentially deciding for all time whether it's possible to create a country based on deliberation and choice or whether countries forever will be created by warfare and and fate.

1:11:38 Right? And, the, decision, which, we, make, now, the actions which we take now will decide that for all mankind. meaning we by are coming together to deliberate to create something by choice that is a risk that does mean we're going to eternally be trying to figure out who we are we're creating it through choice and deliberation

1:12:04 and, in, our, defense, and, I, would, say, this you know when as a rebuke to I think the more nivist elements there's this idea that a diverse society formed around a creed is a risk as though a traditional nation state, man, they just live in peace and there's no problem. Like if you want to if you want to go back to what makes this a dangerous world, it's nation states or religious states fighting for the supremacy because they believe themselves superior. So the idea that somehow we in America are embarking on a much riskier journey seems utterly foolish.

1:12:49 What it seems to be is a reaction to the much more, as you would say clearcut, I know who belongs here formulation that has been the cause of strife and death and war throughout history. So it to formulate it, you know, as Trump would say to the inner cities what have you got to lose? You know it's not like those other formulations have been so stable and peaceful. It

1:13:22 is, true., It, is, true. No,, it's, true. I, got, a, true,, John., There's, a, there, was, a, wonderful letter written by a 19th century Swede and immigrants to the United States. He's writing back to family in Sweden. He talks about what it is like to live in America. And the thing that he homeed in on was this. My cap is not worn out from having to take it off when a rich man rides by in his carriage.

1:13:52 Boom. And, I, thought,, bingo. Boom. That's, it., Right, there. That's, what, it's, about.

1:13:58 Yeah., Yeah. There's, someone, who, says, that, right after the revolution, actually.

1:14:01 Yeah. When, he's, he's, asked, at, the, time, um, or he says at the time, what's different

1:14:07 right now?, And, he, says,, "When, I'm, on, the street, I don't need to bow down, right

1:14:14 to, someone, who's, coming, by, me., I, can actually stand up." I, so, appreciate, you, guys, spending, uh, the time with us. I wish my brain had a tenth of of what you guys have going on in in your brains. And your ability to recall it all with such specificity and such purpose is really wonderful to listen, to., I, I I, think, your, students, are supremely lucky to have uh both of you guys and I really appreciate you spending the time with us. Uh Dr. Alan Gzo, professor of humanities at the University of Florida and Joanne Freeman, professor of history and American studies at Yale University and host of History Matters. Thank you guys both so much.

1:14:56 Thank, you, for, having, us., Kids,, I, didn't, want, to, make, this announcement now. I thought it might be premature, but I'm just going to say it. I'm just going to say it right now. We made it. The podcast has made it. We're the big leagues. The The episode is sponsored by the number one meal kit in America, HelloFresh. Yeah, come on. Makes home cooking easier. Chef craft recipes, fresh ingredients. They deliver it right to your door. They've doubled their menu. HelloFresh has like a 100 recipe options a week.

1:15:30 Steak, seafood, veggies, seasonal dishes from around the world. 91% of the customers say they feel healthier eating with HelloFresh. Three out of four parents say their kids eat more veggies. I got kids. I can't say that. The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com/tws10fm. Now to get 10 free meals plus a free breakfast for life. For life. One per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's hellofresh.comws10fm to get 10 free meals plus free breakfast for life.

1:16:19 Ah I I I can't I can't figure out if I was just a [ __ ] idiot when I was in college and did not take advantage of the brilliance and insight of my professors or if they're just incredibly brilliant and insightful and bring this to life in a beautiful way for me. I I I I think I don't know. I feel that way.

1:16:47 Maybe, both. Both., It's, definitely, both. College, is, definitely, wasted, on, like, 18 to 22 year olds. Like I definitely didn't take advantage of my time there.

1:16:57 I'm, mad, at, I, I, think, somehow, whatever marijuana haze blocked my ability to see. But

1:17:07 you, were, busy., Yeah., You, heard, though. Joanne uh would definitely have you in class if you uh played behind her.

1:17:14 I, would, do, it., I, would, I, would, get, the F. Certainly that would help me in my classroom participation grade which I did not do well in. What was your favorite Do you have a favorite professor or class that you had?

1:17:24 Oh, my, goodness,, I, had, so, many, great classes. I really I was an international relations major and so I focused, you know, on international relations, but I loved I had a a two German histories class just talking about, you know, the different ways of German history through culture. And so it was a lot of film and reading from the time

1:17:44 a, lot, of, schnitle,, big, schnitle, class, field, trips, to, beer, gardens., See,, I, did a a very similar course of study uh at a beer garden where we would sample. I [ __ ] up my youth so badly.

1:18:01 I, don't, know, about, that., You're, here. I, think, it, turned, out, just, fine.

1:18:05 Yeah,, but, it, took, it, took, a, while., Now that like as you guys think about where your families are from, do you think about the various times when they came and and when like they they landed here and those changes? Like I think my family came after the 1924 act.

1:18:24 Oh, wow. And, I'm, not, a, Yeah., Yeah., I, think, at least I know my Yeah. I think my grandfather did because he came from China in Oh, no. I guess it was right around then. It was the 19 probably the 1920s. That's when they all came. He he one drove a cab in in Brooklyn and the other ran like a dry cleaner. But that I think they came around that time. Oh my god guys. I just thought of something terrible.

1:18:51 Do, you, think, they, passed, that, act because of my grandparents? They, were, like, there's, two, too, many.

1:18:59 They, got, here, and, and, the, government, was like that's it. The, vibes, are, off., We, have, had, it.

1:19:08 Uh, Britney,, what, do, we, got, from, uh, from the people this week? All, righty., John,, do, you, think, there, is any truth to when Trump calls the press the enemy of the people?

1:19:18 Uh, I'm, going, to, go, with, uh, no. uh you know I mean the press may not be uh at all times helpful but the idea that they are I I consider an enemy somebody who is purposefully weaponizing whatever it is that they do to undercut the strength uh and stability of the country and if that's what he thinks that they're doing I think he is [ __ ] way off on the other thing and in fact I would say that the subversion of of the so-called press outlet lets that he favors have more along lines with subversion than the majority of the media. Even if you don't think it's it's helpful, tends to be following the incentives of sensationalism and ratings and profit and not of a uh uh direct cultural and uh you know political aim. I think I think they're just generally trying to produce television.

1:20:19 Yeah., Because, like, when, he, says, that,, do you think Matt Gates and Laura Loomer are included in that?

1:20:25 No,, he, doesn't., They're, they're, friends of the court on the thing. Lauren, you worked in the media. Are they the enemies? Do they sit in the back and go "Here's how we take down the infrastructure."

1:20:36 No., And, honestly,, I, would, say, that they're really helping him. I mean, I was looking at the news this morning and I saw so many summaries of his tweet storm. Like I know every crazy thought he had on Monday evening and tweeted just because so many outlets summarized it as if it was newsworthy as much as anything else. So I think they're actually helping him.

1:21:00 I, think, they're, sanitizing, and laundering it and removing the disturbance and the kind of uh the bizarness of it by treating it through aggregation.

1:21:12 Yeah., rather, than, just, going,, "Can, you [ __ ] believe this one?" Like, by aggregating it, it's it it makes it seem like a weather report.

1:21:22 I, will, say, there, was, one, little, tidbit that I took away from these summaries that I thought was a little bit interesting, which is that, okay backing up, he had 158 truths or whatever you call them in a series of like 2 hours. The last time he had so many was 200 during Black Lives Matter protest and 142 during his Senate impeachment.

1:21:45 So,, it's, nice, to, put, it, into, context like that. I guess like he's losing it in some way.

1:21:49 I, thought, you, were, going to, say, like, the last time he did that he had bought an eightball

1:21:54 that, too. And, he, was, up, and, he, was, all, up, all night. These, things, are, not, mutually, exclusive,

1:21:59 right?, Jillian,, you, don't, you, don't think they're the enemy of the people Jillian?

1:22:02 Oh,, I, think, they're, the, enemy. [ __ ], knew, it., Jillian, she's, along., She's, but, she's, always Jillian's MAGA. She's always been MAGA. That's that's just how it goes. Famously Maga. Uh what what what else we got?

1:22:14 Uh, isn't, it, about, time, Congress, takes the pardon power away from Trump, the convicted criminal's best friend?

1:22:22 I, I, kind, of, dig, what, he's, doing., I, you know, I used to think crime doesn't pay but now I'm getting a whole other head on this. He is decriminalizing. You know how like there was that big movement like for years people had to fight for like legalized pot? Like there was this drug that was like sort of like alcohol and alcohol is legal and there's restriction on it and you couldn't figure out. He's just out there with pens like legalize international drug trafficking like with the stroke of a pen. He's like this guy was convicted for moving. They literally said mountains of cocaine and he's like but a mountain it's not too much to have a mountain.

1:23:05 He's, like, dream, bigger., Yeah. Right. And, Congress, does, nothing. Nothing., They're, scared, shitless., But, do you remember when the step between getting dispensaries and like you know getting arrested for smoking on the street was well if you had like two joints you'd be cool as long as it didn't you know seem like distribution. Trump while obviously droning boats to fight the drug war he decriminalized a mountain of coke. You can't do more than a mountain. There is no geographical uh uh even apparatus.

1:23:47 This, mountain, is, for, my, personal, use, right?, Like now now the next guy is going to be like, "Well, you're in trouble cuz you're doing a mountain range of cocaine." Like what the [ __ ] He even like bribery is legal. state sponsor drug trafficking is legal. Like I I don't even know what to make of this, as he said many times, law and order presidency.

1:24:16 Well,, he, doesn't, either., He, doesn't, even know who he pardoned. So I, love, that's, by, the, way,, what, a six-year-old he is. Whenever he gets confronted, his responses are either, I don't know, or you're stupid. I have children. I'm very familiar with these Dodgers. He always says, "I don't know." And then has a a specific next line that shows he specifically does know. It's like without fail.

1:24:41 What, about, even, the, the, the, droning, of the the drug the the so-called double tap where they ended up to there were survivors and then they killed them. They asked him and he goes, "I don't know. You know, I got nothing to do with it." And you're like, "You're the commanderin-chief."

1:24:54 But, pointedly,, he, didn't, have, anything to do with it. It's, a, tag., You're, it, situation.

1:24:59 I, got, nothing, to, do, with, it., That's That's Pete. And then Pete's like, "I left the room. I'm busy. I got [ __ ] to do. I've got, you know, hair hair cream to buy.

1:25:08 They're, going, to, run, out, of, people, to throw under the bus." Absolute, insanity.

1:25:12 The, buck, stops, down, there. The, buck, stops., Oh,, another, boat, blew up. What are you?

1:25:18 Uh um, John,, I, have, one, another, quick, one for you. One, quick, one., Bring, it.

1:25:23 Just, that, we, thought, was, kind, of, funny. If you ran CNN and had to keep just one are you going with Scott Jennings or Jake Tapper

1:25:31 Collins?, And, we're, out. And, we're, out., Uh,, guys,, thank, you, so much. Uh, excellent work. Boy, I I got to tell you, I loved that conversation. I I just found it so invigorating and and uh boy, my respect for those two is is through the roof. I really [ __ ] wish I had paid attention more when when I was younger, but thank you guys for it. Uh, lead producer Lauren Walker producer Britney MVC, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vatollah, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, executive producers Chris McShane, and Katie Gray. We shall see you uh, next week. Bye-bye.

1:26:15 The Weekly Show with John Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bus Boy Productions.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "American “Heritage” vs. American History | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"?

Jon Stewart (Host), Dr. Alan Gellzo (Guest), Joanne Freeman (Guest).

What is "American “Heritage” vs. American History | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart" about?

The content explores the complex relationship between American "heritage" and true historical narratives, emphasizing the need for a nuanced discussion about America's identity and who belongs in its narrative. Featuring insights from historians, it examines how this debate has evolved and its implications for the nation's future.

What is mentioned in this The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Joanne Freeman, Dr. Alan Gellzo, Civil War, 1924 Immigration Reform Act, 1965 Immigration Act, World War One. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "American “Heritage” vs. American History | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"?

The episode runs 1 h 27 min; the transcript is about 14,807 words in 241 timestamped sections.

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