Trump’s Domination Politics with Fareed Zakaria | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

What this episode is about

This content explores the complex dynamics of power and politics under the Trump administration, drawing parallels with figures like Hugo Chavez and discussing the influence of major oil reserves in countries like Venezuela. It delves into the implications of U.S. foreign policy decisions and the chaotic nature of global events, while seeking to understand the broader motivations behind Trump's governance.

Key takeaways

• When it comes to oil reserves, Venezuela's numbers may be as inflated as a Trump rally.
• Illiberal democracy: the art of dressing tyranny in the charming garb of elected power.
• The U.S. might be a 'test kitchen' for authoritarian tactics borrowed from less developed democracies.
• Surprisingly, American democracy’s fragility puts it in worse shape than countries like Pakistan and Turkey.
• Sometimes, the best leaders are held back by institutions—unlike the U.S., where chaos reigns unchecked.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Jon Stewart (Host) · 53 min speaking
• Fareed Zakaria (Guest) · 35 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Philippines, Fared Zakaria, Pakistan, John Stewart
2. 10:00 – 20:00: illiberal democracy, American Constitution, Harry Truman
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Russia, Nvidia
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Hugo Chavez, Dr. Monica Gandhi, Exxon, Mountbatten
5. 40:00 – 50:00: illiberal democracy, Pakistan
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Russia, One Homeland, Department of War
7. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Russia
8. 1:10:00 – 1:20:00: Fared Zakaria, Nvidia, Daily Show
9. 1:20:00 – 1:28:28: Daily Show, John Stewart, Britney Mavic, Bus Boy Productions

Notable quotes from "Trump’s Domination Politics with Fareed Zakaria | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"

• Largest oil reserves in the world, 300 million. You know where that number comes from? Hugo Chavez one day tripled the estimate of Venezuela's Chavez is a bit like Trump that way. He likes big numbers.

  about Hugo Chavez · at 0:03

• There is so much going on that is dispiriting and needing of framing. And I'm delighted to have Fared Zakaria is going to be joining us on the show. so much of this is about…

  about Fared Zakaria · at 0:49

• When I was very young and it was based on my first book actually which was all about illiberal democracy. democracies where elected rulers start to abuse elected leaders start to abuse the rule of law and individual rights. in those days, I.

  about illiberal democracy · at 2:50

• There is a line that says foreign commerce will be regulated by congress.

  about American Constitution · at 11:18

• And you saw Trump's response to that was, everybody wants to be a part of it, but I think I'm going to cut Exxon out of it because they were too glib with their answer. And…

  about Exxon · at 31:40

• Apocryphal when Mountbatton the last British viceroy is talking to Gandhi.

  about Dr. Monica Gandhi · at 37:06

• You watch Trump on Russia and Ukraine and it's pretty clear everyone tries to find some rationale. He hates the Ukrainians. He likes the Russians. He hates Zilinski. He likes…

  about Russia · at 53:18

• I don't know if you've seen some of this homeland security iconography that they're using. One homeland, one of you, all of them. Like it is so it's at this point it's not even implicit of fascist iconography.

  about One Homeland · at 55:20

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Fared Zakaria — Person · Main guest · 4 mentions · first at 0:55
  Zakaria provides the analytical framework (illiberal democracy, institutions vs norms, post-1945 order) used to interpret U.S. domestic and foreign policy shifts.
• John Stewart — Person · Host · 3 mentions · first at 0:23
  Stewart drives the conversation, frames the critique of coercive power and institutional erosion, and connects foreign policy to domestic authoritarian theater.
  Hello. Welcome back to the Weekly Show podcast with John Stewart. My name is John Stewart and we have been gone. God knows how long we've we've been gone. I can tell you how long we've been gone.
• Hugo Chavez — Person · Referenced political leader (Venezuela) · 3 mentions · first at 0:06
  Chavez is cited to explain inflated oil reserve claims and as a populist parallel to Trump’s affinity for 'big numbers'.
• Dr. Monica Gandhi — Person · Referenced moral/political exemplar · 1 mention · first at 37:12
  Gandhi is used to illustrate nationalism and self-determination: people may prefer 'their own chaos' to foreign-imposed order.
• Georgia Maloney — Person · Comparative example of institutional constraint · 1 mention · first at 5:59
  Cited to argue that European institutions can constrain right-wing populists more effectively than U.S. structures constrain Trump.
  No, no, no, no, no. More than in places like in Europe. So, look at Georgia Maloney comes to power in Italy and she's a fireb breathing right-wing populist and but she's contained by the institutions. Her policies have actually.
• Harry Truman — Person · Historical implementer reference · 1 mention · first at 19:09
  Cited as implementing the post-1945 rules-based international system that the episode argues is being dismantled.
  International system, that the United States basically it was Franklin Roosevelt's dream, Harry Truman implements it. and what you have since then is remarkable. It's there's…
• Mountbatten — Person · Historical anecdote figure · 1 mention · first at 37:06
  Appears in an anecdote illustrating colonial attitudes and the limits of foreign-imposed stability.
  Gandhi, if the British just leave India, it's going to be chaos. And Gandhi looks at him and says, Yes, but it'll be our chaos. And that's what I think most people don't understand. Sometimes.
• Lauren Walker — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:27:52
  So lovely to have you guys back. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittney Mavic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vtolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producers Chris.
• Britney Mavic — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:27:53
  So lovely to have you guys back. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittney Mavic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vtolo, audio editor and engineer…
• Jillian Spear — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:27:53
  So lovely to have you guys back. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittney Mavic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vtolo, audio editor and engineer…
• Rob Vtolo — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:27:55
  Producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittney Mavic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vtolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive…
• Nicole Boyce — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:27:57
  Brittney Mavic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vtolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray.…
• Chris McShane — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:27:59
  Video editor and engineer Rob Vtolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thank you guys so much for rejoining us after a lovely break and we shall see you guys next week.
• Katie Gray — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:28:00
  Audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thank you guys so much for rejoining us after a lovely break and we shall see you guys next week.

Books & papers

• Daily Show — Book · 7 mentions · first at 1:46
  Country and drill it. so I'm going to I haven't talked to this fellow used to come on the old Daily Show constantly and I haven't been able to talk to him in quite a bit. So…
• The Weekly Show with John Stewart — Book · 1 mention · first at 1:28:10
  The Weekly Show with John Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bus Boy Productions.

Companies & orgs

• Daily Show (podcast) — Company · Referenced prior platform · 4 mentions
  Serves as historical context for Stewart and Zakaria’s relationship and Zakaria’s frequent guest appearances.
  Used to come on the old Daily Show constantly.
• Exxon — Company · Example of politicized state-capital allocation · 1 mention · first at 31:45
  Exxon is used to illustrate how investment decisions and access to resources can become contingent on presidential favor.
• Nvidia — Company · Economic dominance example · 2 mentions · first at 21:45
  Used as a data point to rebut U.S. decline narratives by highlighting extraordinary U.S. corporate market power.
  The US economy is 70% larger than the Eurozone economy. If you look at one company, Nvidia, it has a higher market capitalization than the entire German stock exchange. So it's…
• CNN — Company · 8 mentions
• Comedy Central — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:28:12
  The Weekly Show with John Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bus Boy Productions.
• Bus Boy Productions — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:28:14
  The Weekly Show with John Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bus Boy Productions.
• Paramount Audio — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:28:14
  The Weekly Show with John Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bus Boy Productions.
• Built — Company · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

• illiberal democracy — Concept · Core analytical concept · 4 mentions · first at 2:55
  Used to explain how elected leaders erode rule of law and rights, and to interpret Trump-era tactics as part of a broader global pattern.
• American Constitution — Concept · Core institutional reference point · 3 mentions · first at 6:27
  The Constitution is invoked to argue that tariffs are Congress’s power, to explain executive-branch structure, and to frame the U.S. as a creed-based polity.
• One Homeland — Concept · Authoritarian iconography reference · 1 mention · first at 55:25
  Cited as explicit, fascist-adjacent messaging in homeland security branding, reinforcing the episode’s theme of illiberal aesthetics and intent.
• Department of War — Concept · Symbolic policy/branding reference · 1 mention · first at 54:40
  Mentioned as an example of purposeful ideological signaling toward militarism/strongman governance rather than liberal-democratic leadership.
  That changing it to Department of War is much more purposeful. Not backing Ukraine is not necessarily about, well, they never got the dirt on Biden that I wanted. It really is about no, no, no,.

Places & events

• Russia — Place · Referenced adversary / cultural-alignment foil · 8 mentions · first at 22:44
  Russia is discussed in the context of Ukraine, cultural politics (white/Christian framing), and as part of a strongman world order.
• Pakistan — Place · Early example in illiberal-democracy framework · 4 mentions · first at 3:07
  Cited as one of the countries Zakaria originally analyzed when developing the illiberal democracy concept.
  Abuse the rule of law and individual rights. in those days, I was talking about places like Pakistan and the Philippines, not the United States of America. and it was a huge pleasure. and of course, it leaves me wondering, what happened,.
• Philippines — Place · Comparative example / 'test kitchen' reference · 4 mentions · first at 3:07
  Used as an example of where illiberal techniques were observed and allegedly refined before appearing in the U.S.
  Abuse the rule of law and individual rights. in those days, I was talking about places like Pakistan and the Philippines, not the United States of America. and it was a huge pleasure. and of course, it leaves me wondering, what happened,.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 You know, and most people don't realize they talk about Venezuela having the largest oil reserves in the world, 300 million. You know where that number comes from? Hugo Chavez one day tripled the estimate of Venezuela's Chavez is a bit like Trump that way. He likes big numbers.

0:16 We're not We're not getting the good numbers. Hello. Welcome back to the Weekly Show podcast with John Stewart. My name is John Stewart and we have been gone. God knows how long we've we've been gone. I can tell you how long we've been gone. I'm I'm back at my podcasting desk and there are what appear to be three dead insects. You would think that that I that I would have come up here and and and cleared those out, but but yeah, I I I took a nice break. But boy, did the world not. Uh there is so much uh going on that is that is dispiriting and needing of of framing. And I'm delighted to have Fared Zakaria is going to be joining us on the show. You know, so much of this is about what what exactly is the theory of power for this Trump administration? Is is there anything that we can figure out that kind of uh gives us a coherent uh directional worldview as to where these guys are going or is it just literally

1:14 big [ __ ] small? I think it's more complicated than that. How does Iran and Venezuela fit into all that? you know, all all these different things we we will try and run through and and get some through line that could maybe help us feel slightly less vertigo from what we feel from the bouncing around between we are going to invade uh Greenland and also is that delicious oil. I think I'm going to have to to to take over your country and drill it. Uh, so I'm going to I haven't talked to this fellow used to come on uh the old Daily Show uh constantly and and I haven't been able to talk to him in in quite a bit. So I'm delighted to have him on the program today. Mr. Fared Zakaria, host of CNN's Fared Zakaria GPS.

2:03 And so, folks, in in a world that has uh so many now uh plates spinning in the air and and a constant stream of what appear to be uh really close to cat cataclysmic events and and catastrophes. Uh we we bring in a gentleman who's been doing his program, keeping an eye on all this sort of thing for 18 years now. Fared Zakaria, host of CNN's Fared Zakaria uh GPS. And as we spoke earlier, you you were the most frequent guest that we had on the Daily Show back when I still had to work every night, which God bless. You figured that early on.

2:43 Fred did. Well, it was a huge pleasure, honestly. But you you you uh asked me to do it when I was very young and um it was based on my first book actually uh which was all about illiberal democracy. you know, democracies where elected rulers start to abuse elected leaders start to abuse the rule of law and you know, individual rights. Uh, in those days, I was talking about places like Pakistan and the Philippines, not not the United States of America. Um, and it was a huge pleasure. Uh, and of course, it leaves me wondering, you know, what happened, John? What am I chopped liver? Why have you forgotten me?

3:21 Oh, let me let me tell you what happens. So, I disappear for nine years. raise raised a couple of kids and then uh I decide to come back once a week. I don't have time for any guests. I don't So somebody shows up in the office. I don't

3:34 Plus, you got to see you now. You got to look young and hip and like I'm you know I'm old news.

3:39 I don't somehow I think this face uh you know I'm ready to play Tevia in fiddler. I mean with this face it's you'd be good. None of this is working. Uh, Fared, uh, what a what a great way to to jump into it, which is, you know, you you make your bones on this idea of illiberal democracies and all the ways in which uh, these more authoritarian rulers use the mechanisms of democracy to create systems that are actually eroding it and corroding it uh, and the infrastructure of it to the point of uh, somewhat of a collapse. and and you jumped my first question which is uh are you seeing now the things that you viewed in in Philippines and I don't want to be you know alarmist or hyperbolic but boy it's hard not to view this country as you know the polite way to would be I guess we are now a subsidiary of the Trump organization which would look at it more benignely and the less benign way would

4:45 They've been using these illiberal techniques in test kitchens in the Philippines and all kinds of other places and now they've brought this new McRib to the United States and and they're applying it here.

4:57 Uh look, there's no question that that that that's true. If you when I was writing about it in when I coined the phrase illiberal democracy 9697 I was looking at you know places like Pakistan, the Philippines, Slovakia, uh Turkey under Erdogan you could begin to see it happening. Um and I always thought that this is not going to affect the developed world as much. I did actually in my book have a a chapter or two about America but I thought it was sort of like a tendency a danger that we were becoming too enamored of I you know of the idea of uh these charismatic leaders and but what I didn't expect is that the institutional framework of of western democracies would be as fragile as it is and in this case actually the United States is is in worse shape than other places. Explain explain that we're we're in worse shape than than places like Pakistan and Slovakia and Turkey.

5:56 No, no, no, no, no. More than in places like in Europe. So, look at Georgia Maloney comes to power in Italy and she's a fireb breathing right-wing populist and but she's contained by the institutions. Her policies have actually not been as radical as people thought they would be. partly because there are lots of institutions both within Italy and within the European Union that that and she's ba basically not torn them up in the United States. You know, we have a we have the oldest constitution in the world, which is great in many ways, but in some ways it's kind of old-fashioned.

6:34 So, for example, um our justice department does technically sit entirely under the president. That is not true in in Europe. all their justice departments are independent agencies. Um so what that means is that what we developed after Watergate was a set of norms. Uh you know the president wouldn't ask the attorney general to prosecute certain cases or but those are all just norms that we developed after Watergate and Trump just broke them all and he just said look there's no law that tells me I can't do this. Similarly, he's correct when he says there's no law that says my kids can't do all the business they want and take advantage of the fact that they're my children. And you know, all these things were norms. And what it's turned out is that we need more actual laws that constrain uh executive power in particular. And the challenge here is the Supreme Court um has has become so pro-executive power that we're I think

7:34 we're in a very bad fix because you can see the problem as you described it. The the you know the Trump presidency is basically knocking down norms in many cases violating laws. The the Tik Tok ban should have been implemented. It was a congressional ban.

7:50 That was a law. That was Cong Congress made it a law and he's done recisions. He's pulled money back. So that that's my question to you because we talk a lot about how Trump has blown past norms or you know let's say Maloney goes into Italy but she's more constrained but I think what Trump is demonstrating is that even these laws it's not so much that the system has been constraining uh individuals is that the individuals themselves believed in that system as being the most viable and most stable and most productive. It would be the most prosperous. It's one of the reasons why America has done so well is because by laying out rules of the road and adhering to it, we've earned credibility and trust that we weren't going to be ruled by the whims of mercurial and volatile leaders.

8:43 Trump, I think, has made uh uh a different choice. I think he's shown the weakness of liberal democracies almost not in norms but by the idea that if you control what did he say about the Supreme Court when they the Supreme Court came in and said you can't do that and what was his response how are you going to enforce that

9:03 right so it's not I think Trump is actually it's worse than oh he's blowing past it's why I wasn't so bothered by oh he fired some inspector generals when he blew past norms. I kind of

9:19 soft pedal it. This is a different This is a different thing that is now being uh accomplished. This isn't about norms. It's exposing the weakness of the enforcement mechanisms

9:35 of the laws that a powerful executive just decides to ignore. Yeah. And that is in some ways at the heart of the the you know the problem of the American constitution because I would argue that one of you know the things that the founders really could not have imagined was these political parties that are so loyal to the party and to the president as the head of the party that they completely ab abdicate their institutional loyalty to Congress. Right? So Madison always believed that congressional power would always be a check on executive power because Congress wants to retain its own self-interested, you know, for self-interested reasons, retain power.

10:20 No, Mike Johnson is happy to be the errand boy to Donald Trump. Of course, because at the end of the day, he knows that the way he's going to stay in power and get elected is by being Donald Trump's eron boy. So if you have a system like that, you actually don't have the checks and balances. The checks and balances are completely notional. Or similarly, as you point out with the court, I think what Trump is doing, for example, on the tariff case is a fascinating use again of this kind of illiberal democracy because he's intimidating the court and saying we're doing this for national security. We're getting tons of revenue. All these deals have been done. you will undo the whole you know reputation and and set of relationships I have and deals I have made. Well yes but every but what you did was plainly unconstitutional. I mean literally it is in the constitution in a line not by implication or or inference.

11:18 There is a line that says foreign commerce will be regulated by congress. Tariffs were you know were regulated by and by the way they knew what tariffs were. This wasn't, you know, the reason we had the American Revolution was tariffs. You know, when people talk about the the the the Tea Party, you know, what was that? That was a tariff on, you know, which they they called a tax and a tariff interchangeably on tea coming in from from Britain,

11:43 which of course was and the tariff was paid by Britain and not the way and it raised so much money and we were so powerful.

11:50 But by the way, that means that means the whole American revolution was a misunderstanding. If only we had realized that we were that we in America were not paying the the tariffs. It was the poor Brits who were paying it. Why didn't we revolve?

12:03 That's right. It was it was making us it was making America great again. Uh but but the thing that it is not hard for me to foresee a world that even if the Supreme Court says those tariffs are unconstitutional that he will not get rid of them or uh Congress which is now a vestigial organ will uh just say or or they may do the you know a different thing and say okay they have certainly they control the Senate and they control uh the House and they could pass them if they wanted to but they abdicate responsibility because they don't want to go on record uh for anything. But I don't think he'll do it, John, because I think if your inspector's general point is an interesting one. So, you know, he comes in for day one, he fires all the inspectors general. Now, congressional law allows the president to fire the inspector's general, but there's a procedure in the law, which is you have to give 6 months notice. There has to be

12:55 he didn't follow procedure. There has to be a specific charge of complaints against each inspector general.

13:01 And he filed them all without cause. I think that for Trump and for the people around him and I think this is very much part of the heritage 2025 project, it is it is important as an act of principle to violate these laws because they believe these laws are incorrectly constraining executive power. So I think what Trump will do is he will deliberately not go to Congress to get congressional authorization because he wants to make the point I as president am going to retain the right to do this and it'll be some madeup jumble of of emergency national security you know that you know but lawyers can argue anything and he'll come up with but if you look at the way in which he handles the recisions as you said it's absolutely clear that you can't just stop spending money that Congress gave But they want

13:51 but he did right because they want to make the point that we think all these constraints are [ __ ]

13:57 We in the executive branch can do whatever we want. What I'm puzzled by is do the Republicans going along with this not realize that one day there will be a Democratic president. But I think what they believe is that because you will find that Congress suddenly grows a spine again when a Democrat takes office. I think what they're not understanding and maybe they think that a Democratic president won't push this to the extent that he does is that final step to that which is and it it what we were talking about earlier which is you and what army [ __ ]

14:31 like right how are you going to enforce this and that's where I think the line is being drawn in the most dangerous

14:40 place the Andrew Jackson line you remember when when when the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Sue Indians who were displaced for Cherokee.

14:49 Andrew Jackson is supposed to have said uh you know Justice Marshall has has made his ruling now let him enforce it.

14:56 That that's exactly right. And Steven Miller has made this case explicitly. You know he's gone out and he does that. You know whenever he talks I always imagine like like dark clouds start to arise over there and like the theme from the exorcist starts playing. But uh you know his point is hey we see the world as it is and the world belongs to the strong and the strong and and this gets to and I want to talk about it it's a more generalized theory of power because

15:24 right now they're trying to find a coherent governing philosophy that they can sell the you know the Donroe doctrine or these different things we're going to strengthen our hemisphere and that's what makes America great and all these different things. What I believe they have decided is kind of a more old school theory of power which is coerced compliance is ultimately better than alliance. That common cause alliance will not get America the the prosperous future. That coerced compliance will get us. And you see it everywhere. we're going to get Greenland or we're going to do it the nice way or we're going to do it uh the hard way. So even if he strikes a deal to buy it or to do these other things, it is obviously at the point of a gun. I don't think and you know we'll tie this all together because I have something I want to ask you about in terms of Iran and Venezuela with all of that. But would you say that the bet

16:29 they are making is that one that we want to take the world back to those systems where might makes right. Uh if you have the larger navy, you get to take it and just blindly ignoring how volatile and violent and ultimately unsustainable that kind of world was.

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18:22 That's j o i nb i lt.com/tws. Make sure to use our URL so they know we say it. So I mean most people I don't don't realize what a sharp break uh it to took place in international relations after 1945. If you look at the hundred years before 1945, you see, you know, every two years there's a war of conquest, there's aggression, there's annexations, you know, I mean, France and Germany went to war three times between 1850 and 1945, right? Twice they dragged the whole world into it. The the shift then from 1945 to this rules-based international system, you know, that the United States basically it was Franklin Roosevelt's dream, Harry Truman implements it. Um, and what you have since then is remarkable. It's there's almost no war of conquest that has taken place. There's almost no annexations.

19:21 There almost none of that that has taken place. Of course, there have been vi violence and conflicts, but it's a remarkable break. And why did it happen? It's because the United States conceived of a system that was not this traditional real politic law of the jungle. it was, you know, let's try to create a world in which everyone has an incentive for peace. Let's create an open economy so everyone can grow in, you know, can grow and prosper. Um, and they have this much more dark, you know, mocked polity. It's like the the, you know, 19th century German view of how to be powerful. And the only thing I would point out is didn't do so well for the for the Germans. But that's these America created that world 80 years ago.

20:08 Now that world wasn't perfect and it certainly mistakes were made in terms of how uh liberalized globalization was and uh how you balanced your industry with other things but it was remarkably successful. But in their vision that world the 80 years post World War II were the suckers bet for the United States that we are the victims. first of all that we are the victims of that. We were the most prosperous country out of anybody during that time

20:38 and remain the most prosperous and remain the most prosperous. But the second thing is we [ __ ] created it.

20:44 That was our design and they're acting like that is the world that was created to take advantage of us.

20:54 Right? He said he Trump says the European Union was created to screw the United States. We basically encouraged the Europeans to come together because we didn't want them to fight wars again. We we we thought that you know they would understand the advantages of commerce and it and it worked brilliantly. But the point you make uh John which is very important is the whole MAGA premise is that the United States has gotten screwed over the last 80 years and particularly the last 30 or 40. Right? Here's the data. About 25 years ago, US and European wages were roughly the same. Today, US wages are 50% higher than European wages. About 15 years ago, the Eurozone economy and the US economy were the same size. Today, the US economy is 70% larger than the Eurozone economy. If you look at one company, Nvidia, it has a higher market capitalization than the entire German stock exchange. So it's like what world

21:54 are you talking about? The United States is more dominant today than it has ever been. Um you know we have some issues with inequality and things like that but those are issues of redistribution. How do we how do we you know how do we organize and divide the pie

22:09 but not of prospering. We it we've created more wealth right? We've we've thrived in this world and we've got the dollar underpinning the worldly. So the fundamental, you know, to me the the the fascinating thing is that they they it's the whole vision is premised on decline, decay, sclerosis. Uh even the the the Venezuela thing, you know, as you say, what they want to do is go from being the global hegeimon that set the rules, that created the system, that maintains the system to like a regional bully. you know, we give up to Putin, Ukraine, we give up Asia to China, and we get to boss over Venezuela and Mexico. Isn't that great? And it's like such a shrinking of American power. And it also what it what it says is this administration believes uh we will be more prosperous having total dominance and a more colonial view of South America and kind of uh removing Europe and and uh what we gained from that

23:13 alliance and even the ridiculousness of you know we need to take over Greenland so that Russia and China don't take over Greenland. You're like isn't that what NATO is for? We formed an alliance with it's like saying we will fight alone to control South America instead of fighting with all of our allies to have a mutually beneficial position in the entire world and how is that more prosperous for us? Think think about think about the difference you know as you said you put it right they they want it they think coerced compliance is better than the kind of messiness of this alliance between democracies

23:53 because it's zero sum they have to have a zero sum right so look at the coerced compliance so China we have something like 50 uh treaty allies in the United States and most of them are the most the richest countries in the world you know the eur the Europeans Japan Australia China has one treaty ally North Korea. Um, let's throw in Russia. Is that That's really true.

24:17 Yeah, that is the only treaty ally they have. Um, I thought they had trade treaty allies though. They do have

24:22 but not defense. You know what I mean? I mean, you know, and let's throw in Russia and let's throw in Iran.

24:28 Right. Right. Think of that. Like they've got three, we've got 50. Um, that up. We want to piss them off,

24:36 right? So that we can have Greenland, which we already have. Basically, we have base there. We could put more bases there. We could talk. It's it's as though they don't want they think that alliances are weak. It's better for them. It's the same thing they're doing with immigration in the United States. Rather than trying to Are you Are they really trying to tell Americans that the best way to get criminal uh undocumented people in this country out of this country is to show up in force at a target wearing masks with guns. They want that feeling of boot on the neck.

25:20 It's for some reason the the goals that they want are so much more easily accomplished if they didn't have that sense of and we must dominate and humiliate you if you are our foe, including if you didn't vote for him.

25:39 Yeah, the theater is very important. As you well know, Obama has probably still uh uh deported more people than Trump. In other words, if you look at it monthto month,

25:49 but they did that. It was a different they they did do it at the border. Exactly. And they did it in a very different way. But that's my point, which is

25:57 in in one case they were almost trying to minimize the theater and maximize the effectiveness.

26:03 In this case, they're actually trying to maximize the effectiveness even if they, you know, the numbers aren't what they they want to show that this is what we are doing.

26:12 Right. Right. I I also think back to your Greenland point, it's a very important thing to understand that their view of n of wealth and and economic growth is weirdly old-fashioned. So they think, you know, like

26:26 Greenland has minerals in the ground. It has all this stuff. You can always buy them. You can always lease them. You can always like, you know, the idea that the the country that has minerals in it underneath its soil is going to be rich as creases. It's like that. If that were true, all of Africa would be rich. H you know, think about Israel, South Korea.

26:48 It is a colonial mindset. Yeah. These countries have nothing. And what do they have? They have smart people. They've You can always buy this stuff, you know, from around the world. Think about the oil revolution in America. You know, the Chinese kept going around Africa and trying to lock up oil and natural gas deals. The US did techn technological innovation and invented fracking. It turned out ours was a much more successful thing because it's fundamentally knowledge driven. Theirs they've got to make corrupt deals with, you know, African dictators that we, in a weird way, Trump is more like that Chinese mentality. You know, let's let's find, you know, that's why he loves the Venezuela case

27:28 and a colonial mentality. It is it is a it is a king's mentality. And the strange thing about it to me is think about the damage you do to our world standing by going in and taking the resources from Venezuela to to get more oil, right? Who's the largest oil producer in the world? It's us. It's already us. So to do that, but what are we doing when when we push that?

27:53 We're sending a message to the world that if you're uh you know, it's sort of like the old Pey Blinders thing, big [ __ ] small. If you're big, you can do this. So, here's what we may be trading off. We get to take a bigger cut of Venezuelan oil. And China looks at that and goes, "Oh, well then I guess we get to take a cut of quantum chips in Taiwan. And what do you think is going to be more important in the modern world? What are we what's the tradeoff for us, Farie?"

28:25 Yeah. I mean, one way to think about what what they're doing here is, you know, for Trump, it clear it's clear. I just read this book, The Gods of New York, which is but New York in the in the 80s. You'd love it actually. It's a really fascinating one.

28:40 And Trump is and Trump is a is a huge character in it. And you can look even then every time he did a deal his absolute imperative was how do I squeeze everybody in every possible way to screw them and get the best deal I can for myself.

28:56 There was never a thought about uh this instead of a transaction how do I build a relationship? That's right. And any any really great businessman will tell you businesses are built not on a single transaction but on you know building a relationship.

29:11 And he burns bridges like nobody's burned bridges before. And this is what he's doing in you know with this in each in each of these tariff negotiations. His point is I'm going to screw you. I'm going to squeeze you. I'm going to get there. You know, and there's something sort of strange about not realizing that American power since 1945 has been built on this unique thing that we have built so much goodwill and trust among the richest countries in the world. International relations theorists all predicted that at some point Germany will go nuclear, Japan will go nuclear. They're too rich.

29:44 they're too powerful to allow their foreign and defense policy to be subcontracted to the United States. But it never happened. And it never happened because we were honorable about saying we're taking everyone's interest into account. And as you say, we made mistakes and all that. But um compared to other great powers that dominated the world, you know, the United States has been remarkable in in having this enlightened self-interest. And it took 80 years to build that level of trust. Uh and my my great fear is that as you say for kind of like almost misguided notions of economic uh wealth, we're squandering it because what are we going to get? First of all, the Venezuelan oil is a bit of a of a mirage. You know, and most people don't realize they talk about Venezuela having the largest oil reserves in the world, 300 million. You know where that number comes from? Hugo Chavez one day tripled the estimate of

30:42 Venezuela's Chavez is a bit like Trump that way. He likes big numbers. We're not We're not getting the good numbers.

30:51 It's also apparently not the type of grade of oil that's easily got. It's much cheaper to it. It's not something that even the oil company like I don't know about that stuff.

31:00 Yeah. Yeah. I love the classifications. Ours the stuff we produce is called light sweet

31:06 and theirs is theirs is heavy crude. So who wants that? Yeah. And but but also they are right now they they're exporting 1% of the world's uh petroleum. They they are 21st uh in in so you know they're going to be able to do more. But the whole idea of some gold mine which is why the the CEO of Exxon in you know in in front of the television camera tells Trump Venezuela is currently uninvestable which means if you want us to invest the US government is going to have to give us guarantees. you know, this is the new form of capitalism that we're embracing.

31:40 And you saw Trump's response to that was, uh, everybody wants to be a part of it, but I think I'm going to cut Exxon out of it because they were too glib with their answer. And what I don't understand about the MAGA movement or the Republicans right now is that somehow they believe as as poorly as maybe some of our institutions uh had performed over time and the kind of reform that they needed and the various things is that replacing that with the whims of a mercurial megalomaniac and and malignant narcissist is the key to a more stable and prosperous American future.

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33:13 That's rocketmoney.com/tws. MAGA is steeped in kind of the mythology of American creation and they're really going in hard on it. JD Vance says, you know, the heritage American is really the most important American. They have more uh say in this land. We're not a creed. We're we're a people, right? But the Constitution very clearly says, "No, I think I think we're actually a creed." And that creed is that the consent of the governed that we are given unalienable rights by a creator and and those rights carry weight in whatever governing system uh that we place in there. And this is the thing they fetishize. They put it on their buses and they don't tread on me and they've got the gads and flags and all that.

34:07 They're clearly though giving feelalty to someone operating utterly outside of that system. But here's where I think it really gets interesting. Other countries we exported that people want to govern themselves. And when you go in and you start to exploit their resources and do it explicitly so or say we're what you unleash in the people that you are exploiting is a cycle that we have seen play out numerously through history and I'll use Iran and Venezuela as the example. It's a 70-year cycle in Iran. Think of this as the Lion King. It's the cycle of life for so in Venezuela we just started the cycle. We couped the leader. We arrested him. Whether that's justified or not, we'll save that for a different day.

35:08 We're going to go in and we're going to take their oil. People would say like, "Oh, Americans don't want that. That's like Iraq." It's not like Iraq. It's like Iran. In 1953, we and British Petroleum did the same thing in Iran. Mosadik, we removed him and what did we do? We replaced him with a pro-western leader and we got all those resources. And how long did that system hold up for? 1979 because the resentments that we created within that region exploded into it's the reason that the Mullers were in power in 79 and now the Mullers rule with their iron fist and now they're in the cycle where they're about to turn over that country and what's going to happen then my guess is the Western powers or somebody's going to come in and install somebody else and the cycle how do we not see that? How do we not see that what we are starting in Venezuela is going to sew the seeds for the volatility and danger that we had

36:14 already sewed in Iran in 1953. We're just repeating the same stupid cycle. You know, for the United States, for America, it's always been very hard to understand uh other people's nationalism. In other words, we are very proud nationalist patriots, right? But then when you go to Vietnam and they're like, "We want you. We want our country. We we just don't understand that. We're like, "No, no, no. We we are going to give you a better system." You know, we go to Iraq and they're like, "Get out of here. We're going to" and we said, "No, no, no. We're you don't understand. We're going to have a we're going to set up a wonderful democracy where the Shia and the Sunnis will live together." And I actually as an immigrant I I think we do mean well in many of these cases but we have no we seem to have no understanding that other people have nationalism too other people you know there's this famous moment it may have been

37:06 apocryphal when Mountbatton the last British viceroy uh uh is talking to Gandhi.

37:12 You know I love a good Mount Batten anecdote throw it my way. Yeah. And and and and he says Mr. Gandhi, if the British just leave India, it's going to be chaos. And Gandhi looks at him and says, "Yes, but it'll be our chaos." And that that's what I think most people don't understand. Sometimes is people prefer their own chaos to a foreign imposed peace, a foreign imposed order. And what Trump is doing is actually igniting nationalism and anti-American nationalism in places that have really never had it like Canada, like Denmark.

37:49 It's it's incredible. You know, like the Nordic countries, like Sweden. I mean, I'm talking to these people and they you can feel that underneath they're trying to be polite. There is a deep resentment at the way they are being treated. Uh and what are we doing this for? I mean, that's to me the most bizarre part. We're creating all these enemies out of allies for what? For for like the notional idea that we'll have more bases on Greenland, which we could have had anyway.

38:20 It's I I think it's the kind of thing and I you know, nationalism is there's so many connotations about that that some people, you know, view differently. I I think what we're missing is which is so strange again because of of how much we just lionize our own origin story. People yearn to breathe free. Self-determination is inherent in the human condition. And I don't understand how we believe that so deeply in our bones for our story. and yet somehow think Venezuelans don't feel the same about themselves. They may not like the shaveiza. They may not like Maduro. The that election may have been screwed, but they want the ability to determine their own future, not this paternalizing.

39:19 We would never accept it. Yeah. And and in fact, you know, even in Venezuela, I think it's important for people to understand Chavez was hugely popular.

39:30 He won the first election absolutely genuinely. Well, that's the difference between him and Trump, these these populist movements.

39:38 And the truth is there are a lot of people who still believe in the in Chavez and believe. So, you know, that's one of the reasons why this could get very if they actually try try a regime change, this would be very very complicated because there are there are still first of all a lot of people with guns who are not going to give up power easily. uh but there are also a lot of believing uh you know Chavez followers and then there's going there's drug traffickers and cartels you know so the whole thing is much more complicated which is why the sad truth is this is probably going to look like uh essentially the most expensive arrest in human history of Maduro which got rid of him got American oil companies some concessions into Venezuela and left everything else intact the entire repressive apparatus of the regime. The defense minister, the interior minister will all stay exactly as they are

40:34 because otherwise you're opening a Pandora's box. And we're jumping into one of the things that creates such instability in South America and Central America is our interventions, right, into their politics is what created a lot of these more extreme left-wing movements, right? So now they bounce back and forth between right-wing authoritarian strong men and left-wing authoritarian strong men. And the thing that prevented that type of pendulum swings, which is the type of thing you see in like Pakistan where it it'll go from a military ha to, you know, a corrupt kind of democracy to back. It's kind of that

41:14 cycle. What prevents that is our system of constitutional checks and and balances. And what we're saying is we'd like to throw that out to get a system more like theirs. They're setting the United States up for that.

41:31 Yeah. So the really interesting question um John that I would put to you is I mean you know if you assume all the things we're saying are true the the the the part that's most difficult to understand for me

41:43 is why are Americans or at least 40 to 50% of Americans okay with this? You have a situation where it's absolutely clear that you know that one party that the president right now is accumulating powers on a scale that no president has done you know in decades maybe ever. Uh you have a you have a situation where laws are being violated, norms are being violated. uh you know you have a situation where he's intimidating the court, intimidating the Federal Reserve and yet you know he he doesn't lose much support from his base and and I think he's decided he's governing for his base and the so what what leaves me thinking is are is about half the country really okay with illiberal democracy with the idea that you know it's okay to abuse individual rights, minority rights, separation of powers, all that um and what does that mean for the future of democracy if half the country doesn't really doesn't really believe in liber

42:46 liberal democracy? No, they believe in it's okay if it's our guy you know look this is all very Lord of the Rings you know but it is you know everybody believes in liberal democracy until they get to hold the ring and then suddenly it it's a very different scenario but when you say

43:04 and to be fair and to be fair the left has also done this sometimes you know but not nearly to the extent clearly there's no yeah there's no both both sides but it always worried me when Biden would do these student loan you know waiverss using executive power like you know that stuff like just because you want the outcome you cannot want the outcome so badly that you violate the processes of liberal democ like like that's the whole point of of liberalism and liberal democracy which is the process is very important you don't get to just make your policy happen any which way. And what Trump is showing you is the real cost of that.

43:43 But I think there's also something to be said about look, the system that we have in place is so complex and Byzantine that in many ways uh there is always a clause or something from the sergeant-at-arms or whoever might uh jump in there or the parliamentarian to prevent us from doing anything. But it's also complex enough that if you really dig down into emergency powers and you could do anything,

44:10 right? The difference is generally it has been at some level of consensus and not at the whim of an individual and a mercurial one at that with absolute silence and no push back even from uh those in his party who would disagree. This is an absolute utter takeover of the apparatus of a political party. And you ask why they would go along with it. And the reason is because they believe that the left is the enemy. Not that they are a competing sort of worldview or any of those other things that they are an enemy. They are their enemy. and the dopamine hit that they get. This is an algorithmically driven kind of look, populists are popular for a reason. They sell a story of you being forgotten and of a country in decline and of a people that have been abused and victimized.

45:16 And this man, what does he say? I am your vengeance. I will fight for you. and they don't give a [ __ ] how he does it or how punitive he is. And if that means threatening to arrest the Fed chair, so be it. That guy's corrupt anyway and he's our enemy. And so this plays to the passions and prejudices of your base. And and that's how it's all done. Look, they're selling a story that the reason you can't the reason why eggs are expensive is cuz some Somali in Minnesota [ __ ] with a Medicaid program.

45:55 Not that not that we spend a trillion dollars on like military equipment, soon to be $1.5 trillion. were not that uh we subsidize corporations and they suck a lot of the prosperity out of this country and they don't distribute it in any way within the country in any way that resembles fairness none of that matters to them fared and so until they think there's some per what's the I guess I would put that question back on you what do you think they think the peril is some larger goal of constitutional uh bure bureaucracy like what? Why wouldn't they love him? He's he's basically saying if you're for me, you can go to the capital and beat the [ __ ] out of a policeman with the flag pole of a Confederate flag and I will praise you and pardon you.

46:53 But if you try and block a street and you're clearly don't have any idea what you're doing, we can shoot you in the head. So why wouldn't they love that? You know what what you what your point makes me think about is the degree to which maybe during the cold war

47:13 American politics was constrained was disciplined by the reality of the ideological contest between the Soviet Union the need for America to be this beacon of freedom and democracy. Um there was a sense in which you know Hubert Humphrey once said this that that he thought that the reason for the civil rights movement was of there was a foreign policy reason we had to show uh the you know the communist world that America was in fact the the the you know the shining city on the hill

47:46 and you know and since then I think what's happened is honestly we have no competition we've become so powerful it's exactly the opposite of the MAGA narrative we have no check no constraint So I think at some level like the power has gone to our heads and the power has gone particularly to somebody like Trump's head. Look at the way he treats other countries, right? The only way reason you can do that is because you're so powerful. You're unconstrained. You don't have to worry that they're going to go over to the to the communist side.

48:16 Like there's there's something here that feels very much like it's about the arrogance of power, the ability to act in unconstrained ways. And I kind of wonder whether you know the reason we when we were powerful in the past there was this check there was this sense in which you know you had to you had to put forward your best friend.

48:37 We were so so boy this now okay this this is very interesting to me. Hey folks it's quence time. Now, if you're like me, you generally wait uh until fashion week to purchase your clothes for the upcoming year because you you you want to be on trend. You'll see me in Milan sitting next to Anna Winour and Bad Bunny watching the All right, maybe we won't do that. But the point is this. What'd you get for Christmas? Ugly sweater, no gift receipt. Today's sponsor, Quint helps you forget about all the fashion nightmares. Quint, they bring together the premium materials, the thoughtful design, the quality.

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49:46 That seemed a little aggressive to Anna Winter. I didn't mean it like that, but you know what I'm talking about. Take that, Anna Wintor. Probably a better way to frame it. Refresh your winter wardrobe with Quint. Go to quint.com/tws for free shipping on your order and 365day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's quint.com/tws. free shipping and 365day returns. quint.com/tws. The idea is when the battle was democracy versus communism, we almost had to it's sort of like, hey man,

50:27 your your parents are coming over. You're going to have to put on a suit and tie. You can't you're not you can't look sloppy if you're trying to get this

50:34 job. So we had to live up to some of the ideals or at least the ones that you know we thought were in bold

50:43 to to demonstrate to the world sort of our vision our our version of uh you remember during that same time we put in God we trust on the coins to separate ourselves from the godless communists.

50:53 Yeah. Yeah. So we had to demonstrate that our system actually was. So rather than our actions being a a sort of function of absolute power, maybe it's that the worldview right now is not communism versus capitalism, but woke versus unwoke. Sort of the idea is multiculturalism versus singular monoculture. And that now we have to demonstrate not the higher values of the constitution, but we have to demonstrate uh I guess a more violent form of sorting. And the reason why we're not mad at Russia is because we view them through that prism. They're white and Christian and they're defending, you know, Western civilization, not in the sense that we think of the Enlightenment, but of, you know, a more orthodox uh white Christian version of that.

51:53 Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. The cultural divide that has that has developed now is one in which I think for somebody like JD Vance, Russia are actually the good guys, right? They're, as you said, they're white, they're Christian. In fact, Putin often makes the point of Putin is culturally a neoconservative. I mean, he's against all the lentiousness of of Western liberalism. So, by the way, is Xiinping

52:17 and it's why they don't like Europe. Europe's too like and atheist and Right. They don't want any part of that.

52:23 Exactly. They worry that the kind of acids of Western liberalism will change their societies as well. And so in many ways, the Russians and the Chinese are not just balancing against the West uh geopolitically, but they're balancing against them culturally because they don't want these forces of modernization and liberalism to infect their societies. But the the twist now compared to the Cold War is they have allies within the West who feel the same way,

52:52 right? They have, you know, this is what's so different about this moment where we've faced adversaries in the past. We've faced ideological adversaries, geopolitical ones. But what's strange is we now have within the West very important strong forces that kind of agree with our enemies, right? And that's that's what is so such a kind of that's what makes it so difficult to navigate you know foreign policy because you watch Trump on Russia and Ukraine and it's pretty clear everyone tries to find some rationale. He hates the Ukrainians. He likes the Russians. He he hates Zilinski. He likes Putin. Zalinski is the guy who got him impeached in his first term. His solution to peace is I'm going to squeeze Zalinski. try to get the Ukrainians to make all the concessions they can, hand it over to Putin and claim peace and say, "Hey, I got peace. Can I please get the Nobel Peace Prize?" His problem so far is

53:48 Putin wants more. Right? This is this is a very strange moment for the American president to be acting not as the lawyer for the embattled dem European democracy, right, yearning to breathe free, but for the dictatorship, the that is that is the aggressor. that I think has never happened.

54:08 But Fared, if if you look at it through the prism that you're talking about, the cultural one. Exactly.

54:14 The cultural one. But also in terms of the one that you were talking about when the battle was democracy versus communism and we had to demonstrate democracy.

54:21 Well, if that's not the battle anymore, then we don't have to demonstrate that democracy works. But this is where I think it gets it gets darker. That it means that the actions that are being taken are not the whims of a mercurial maniac, but are much more purposeful. That changing it to Department of War is much more purposeful. Not backing Ukraine is not necessarily about, well, they never got the dirt on Biden that I wanted. It really is about no, no, no, no no. We're not uh the great uh democratic leaders like uh you know uh the people that we lionized in the old days. We are now Putin, Netanyahu, us uh Erdogan and and Xi Jinping. And that is what we are demonstrating because now we can police the purity.

55:20 I mean, I don't know if you've seen some of this uh homeland security iconography that they're using. One homeland, one of you, all of them. Like

55:32 it is so it's at this point it's not even implicit of fascist iconography. They're just it's just a direct translation.

55:43 And and so much of it, I don't know if you've seen this, is like 50s nostalgia. you know, the they have these the the photographs of kind of old cars and pristine beaches and and and it's so fascinating because the whole thing is the politics of nostalgia. You know, there's this one moment where in Nikki Haley and her trying her best to do a MAGA imitation when she was running, she tweets something like, "Wasn't life so much simpler when we were growing up?" And I was thinking to myself, so when would that be, right? Like so you put it roughly speaking I think for Nikki Hilly it would be the the mid70s right

56:18 and they're like okay the United States mid70s right we lost our first war in history

56:24 the president was impeached and had to resign a 100 American cities were engulfed in ruinous race riots

56:32 right oil prices quadrupled in one day and then we had the economy was so bad we had to re we had to create a new name for it stagflation

56:41 we had whippidfl inflation now buttons we had to wear right around those were the happy hian days I think there's something fascinating about it it's almost like I think we have an evolutionary need to forget bad things that happened and we remember the pa past in a kind of misty eyed way or something

57:00 I think nostalgia is you know one of the things that Nikki H you know or any of those people and I've always said this is when people say like it was you know it's never been like it was when I was a kid and you're like right cuz you were a kid you were a child. The reason why you loved the world then is all you cared about is when that ice cream truck was coming by. That's right. Your parents paid the rent,

57:20 right? That's all you gave a [ __ ] about. So, of course, that nostalgia and it's so fascinating because it's and and now uh that like like Elon Musk either tweeted this out or like reposted it or did some [ __ ] but it was literally that exact thing you were talking about. It was 1950s Rhdesia and it was a picture in black and white of like this pristine, you know, looks suburban looking and you know, South Africa and it was the chaos and darkness and all that and you're like, you do know in Rhdesia how they got that right? Like do you understand?

57:59 And I used to think like, oh, they're hypocritical. They don't understand how. Now I realize, no, they're saying this is how we do it. Colonialism, you take it by force and you extract those resources cheaply and that's how you create and you police who gets to be there,

58:19 right? And you can create these utopias. When I saw that, I know the tweet you're talking about. Yeah. And I saw that and I thought to myself, you know, Elon Musk is so smart, but it's a perfect example of how these tech tech geniuses somehow seem to either lack any sort of historical understanding or any common sense. Like you look at those pictures and as you say you you you know my reaction was you do understand that that world on the left that is that that beautiful Rodishia was true for like 3% of Rodishians who were white who were tyrannizing the 97% who were not and that's why you could live like that and the same is true in South Africa and by the way I grew up in India where you know if you had looked at the British enclaves in Bombay in Delhi and Kolkata and Madras they looked gorgeous but you know if you kind of went and looked at rural poverty in India uh you know and looked at where all the money was being

59:21 extracted in a way I mean it's sort of weird to me that you that they wouldn't that somebody as smart as Elon Musk would not think to himself how did this how did this come to be you know and but it's almost it's not even how it comes to be because that would that would entail an empathy for those that have been exploited and they don't roll that way. What I'm saying is they believe that's the way we should do it. If we have the opportunity to exploit to our benefit, we should do it. I think what it's missing is the real politique of it, which is to sustain that level of exploitation requires a tremendous amount of resources. And the further away you do it from your center of power, the harder it is to hold the forces of entropy and chaos from exploding.

1:00:17 And that's the thing. I'm not even I don't even want to appeal to their moral center. I don't think it exists. I don't think they look at Rhdesia and think, "Oh, that probably was a little [ __ ] up for the other people who live there." But what they're not taking into account is how unsustainable it is. Because let's go back to the Constitution. People want to be free. They don't want taxation without representation. They have rights and they are going to fight for them. And if you're the one holding them back, you're the one they're going to fight.

1:00:59 and and you know understanding that and building a foreign policy that was based around this idea that take Latin America you know we went in we exploited it we we toppled regimes and then we came to realize the point you're making so for the last 40 or 50 years really ever since the Latin American debt crisis of the 1980s both parties decided let's have a different approach to Latin America let's partner with them let's try to you know we we'll figure a way to help them restructure their economies. We helped them transition. Almost every Latin American country in the early 80s was a military hunter. They all became democracies by the '9s with the exception of Cuba. That that whole process of partnering, integration, cooperation, you know, law enforcement cooperation, drug cooperation ended up making the United States much more influential in Latin America. it became and and and it produced you know Mexico

1:01:58 now is you know half a middle class society there's no migration from Mexico into the US anymore because you know there are jobs there all these good things happened and and but it points to the the the the dilemma you're describing this is complicated it's messy you have to treat countries that are really not your equal like your equal you have to give them you know respect and defer them sometimes and and yet it works. It has worked miraculously well with throwing that all away for this much older version of of you know power and coercion which doesn't work.

1:02:38 It's a sort of weird thing right everybody you could there was this caricature which which is that all everybody in America thought that if China you know kept doing what we were saying China was going to become like America but what's really happening is America is becoming more like China we are becoming admiring of China's methods of running the economy state capital controlling right controlling the population of buying you know mineral rights around the world it's like we are becoming them.

1:03:09 And it's such a strange bargain for a country like ours to make that has so benefited from a world order that we ourselves created. and the subtrifuge of coups. Not only is it exhausting, uh not only is it sort of undercutting the values by which we think we stand for, it's not sustainable and it's it's a much more volatile system. And by the way, a constitutional republic is not really the best system by which to graft an imperial leader onto. So, let's say he builds his giant [ __ ] ballroom with the all the gold trimmings and he knocks down the like the next guy can just undo it cuz that's kind of how you know and when you start going into these systems that they're setting up of resentment. I don't know that we're going to be able to get that back. I don't know. I don't know how other countries would be able to trust us knowing that one person who just decides to push it as far as you can push it can just come

1:04:19 in and what did Trump do? Pulled out of 60 treaties the other day. Yeah. You know, it's a it's a it's something that's true in personal life as well as as well, right? Like real deep abiding trust takes decades to build. Uh it's it's it's a lot of hard work. Rupturing trust is very easy, right? Because exactly as you say, because after this,

1:04:42 you know, every European country, every Cana, you know, every Canadian, the Australians, they always know, you know, the Americans could do this again,

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1:06:33 Fared where where do you see you know when we talk about so as we change the world order and we align ourselves more with that idea of like the strong men uh spheres of influence those kinds of things the tradeoffs that we make within that. So what is now who is the the leader of the free world? Because if we're the ones that are going into countries and dictating who can be their leaders, which we're doing that they've said it explicitly, Venezuela can have a new leader, but it has to be they have to meet this requirement. So that's not a free election.

1:07:09 What then is what is the world order? Is it literally us China Russia you know, uh some smaller strong men that also get to assert their spheres of influence in their things? A uh completely rotted EU that has no power like where does Canada, Australia, the EU, where do where does the block that we led, what becomes of that?

1:07:39 Uh we are leaving them leaderless. We are leaving them disunited and leaderless precisely because their strength came from being part of a whole right they individually not none of them many of them are pretty strong you know the fourth fifth sixth seventh largest economies in the world

1:07:57 right but what gave them the power was that we were all together we were united so we'll end up in a kind of multipolar world which is like the 19th century world very unstable very volatile prone to war miscalcul calculation except this time we have nuclear weapons. Uh so not a not a happy scenario also not a world in which you know freedom has as much as much uh capacity to expand. Um, and to my mind, you know, what is strange about all of it is we took something where we were at the center, where we were the rule set, where we be the agenda set, and we've turned it into something where we've got this little box of the Western Hemisphere, which is, by the way, the least important of the three main regions in terms of even our own trading, our main trading partners are in Europe and Asia.

1:08:49 But I tend to think, John, that I I maybe it's just again I'm I'm I'm an optimistic immigrant. This is not going to last. This is not going to last. You know, Americans don't like this. I don't think I think the idea that America stands for nothing, stands for you know no higher ideals, the idea that the United States is just a bully, that it's going to literally consciously emulate uh the the you know the ways of old-fashioned imperialists that it's going to essentially become a version of Putin's Russia. I don't think this is popular. I don't think people like it. I think that we are going through a bad phase uh in American history. Um and I don't I think you know there is going to be some at some point the fever breaks and I think the problem is we will have done damage.

1:09:44 Well I've been hearing that for a very very long time. I know. I know. I know. And I And this is why I said to you, to me, the biggest puzzle is that the fever hasn't broken. But I but you know sometimes these things takes longer

1:09:56 because it's too flattering to I think that nostalgia that you talk about to a group of people that feel and by the way many of them feel rightfully let down that the systems that we talked about that created the prosperity in the world did leave them behind and our system was not fast enough to catch up and we did have a problem with not gaining control over immigration. None of these stories is completely invented out of whole cloth. But and the narrative the the thing I worry about is the narrative that we're describing is one that makes perfect sense to what we observe in the world. But as we saw, you know, let's take Minneapolis as an example. I look at that video and I see something very different than what appar I mean when the president of the United States an hour afterwards just come out and say that's a domestic terrorist who's uh that was a terrorist attack trying to murder an ICE agent and I'm like

1:10:56 pretty sure that you know you know someone said like she was a well-trained uh operative in a domestic terror and and you're like well someone's trained in that but it's not her

1:11:08 it's the officers They're the ones that are they're the ones that it seemed like, getting back to our point, there were a lot of different ways that they could have accomplished deescalating that situation beyond killing the person, but they chose that and it was a choice. But what I saw on that t like somebody was criticiz I see people criticizing liberals saying, "So it's okay that she tried to murder that agent." You're like, "No, we're not saying it's okay that she tried to murder an agent. What we're saying is from what we saw, that's not what she was trying to do."

1:11:47 But we have two different interpretations. So my view of what are we doing in the world? I wonder do they view it as see America's back?

1:11:56 Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's and that's how they and that's how they digest it. I hope that this it feels alien to me. It's surprising that someone uh an authoritarian move like Trump's normally a populist is more popular than he is.

1:12:16 Yeah. I mean and and that's the hope again, you know, that he's governing to his base. Uh which he's doing very well, but he is losing, you know, the the majority. Not a huge majority, but it does I mean his approval ratings are in the in the high30s at this point. But what you have to hope then is that the the next, you know, Democrat or honestly frankly a Republican like a like a John McCain type Republican would come up and say, "Look, you know, we're proud of the things we've done. You know, we're proud that we were the richest country in the history of the world. We were also the most generous country in the history of the world." And I want to save the lives of the poorest people in Africa. if I can do it at 1% of the federal budget rate. There's there's sometimes I worry the Democrats are too scared to make the argument that, you know, there's something honorable and noble about the

1:13:08 kind of things we were doing. Oh, I I think they're too scared to make almost any argument at this point and and they don't have the the wherewithal. And I think what I see in the Trump administration is I I I think at times they even have some worthy goals, but when they have a choice, you know, Trump says we could do it the easy way or we could do it the hard way. I think what they like is doing it the hard way because the hard way is a way of showing power.

1:13:35 Exactly. There is a way for them to do immigration enforcement in this country that doesn't involve beating the [ __ ] out of people in target parking lots.

1:13:42 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think by the way that is the place the the Democrats should be because as you say the Democrats totally mishandled immigration over the last 10 years. Biden would you know it was a disaster. Uh you don't want to be supporting massive illegal immigration. It's wrong. It's bad. Right. And and so the question is how how do you how do you get at this? That's right. and is there is there a way to do it that is more consistent with our values and and and yet is very effective and very hardline and you know I mean look as a legal immigrant I in particular don't like the idea that you can cut you know you can cut the line as it were but you you know there's a way to do it that's consistent with our values

1:14:22 and there's also I think you know there's a sense that yeah if people are murderers and rapist and all that stuff and they're still in the country yeah get them like overwhelmingly Americans support that and if that is what they were trying to accomplish they could do it, but in the manner that they're doing it, they it's almost as though they want the confrontation and they want the provocation. And so everything is done in the most, you know, egregious manner they can possibly think of because they want the fight. And that's what you said and that's what makes me think, oh, you know what, this isn't even incompetence. This isn't mercurial whims of of a dict. this is the plan

1:15:07 right what their endgame on that is I don't know and it's sort of the opposite of what the whole point of liberal democracy is you know this is kind of like highly mobilized societies charged to find internal enemies and you know it feels very different like the whole point of liberal democracy is you live in your house you the government respects your privacy nobody interferes with your you know you go out you you have your wonderful private life there's CI CI, you know, civil society builds. That's that's what it used to be. You know, that's what the whole idea of capitalism and and liberal democracy was. And American democracy, the craziest thing to me has been watching the don't tread on me crowd flip over to

1:15:51 you obey and you comply. That's that's what the founders want. Like an idealization of state power. That's right. you know that the president should be the one doing out, you know, I'm going to give Nvidia this contract. I'm not going to give it to Exxon cuz you wasn't nice to me. And now now the Swiss can have lower tariffs cuz they gave me a gold bar. I mean, that is, you know, that's that state power of a kind that, you know, no president has ever wielded.

1:16:19 It was only 20 years ago, maybe 25 years ago, that Francis Fukyama wrote the end of, you know, uh uh what was it? the the the

1:16:29 the end of history the end of history and that it was that democracy liberal democracy in particular had triumphed over history

1:16:37 and now it looked like that at the time you know it's funny it's like it's like that's the thing about life is you know this is what gives me hope John nothing stays the same

1:16:48 so that's what we have to hope to the ramp parts for Takaria uh fared thank you boy what a what a lovely chance to catch up I I've really enjoyed Uh, I hope I get a chance to see you again. Fred Zakaria, host of CNN's Fred Zakaria, GPS. Good luck over there at CNN. I don't know who's buying it next, but I hope that that they believe in you and that you stay on and and keep keep going.

1:17:17 From your lips to God's ears. All right. Well, actually, we have we haven't talked in a while, but I'll see what I can do. Uh, Fared Zakaria, thanks for joining us.

1:17:26 Pleasure. Fine. I haven't seen him in a dog's age. It's been He was the He was the most frequent guest uh on the Daily Show.

1:17:40 You can see why. Yeah. And now uh he's I wonder if they you know what happens when they when they sell CNN? Do they sell it for parts? Does he get just like left out on a curb and then anybody can drive by and just pick it up like just with a sign, a piece of paper that says free on it.

1:17:59 Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Works well. Or they just start shutting parts down. Like remember CNN Plus? That was a moment.

1:18:06 Oh god. They did that for like a week and then they were like, nah, [ __ ] this. This is this seems like it might be hard. And then go, I really like I don't even know who's going to get it. But the president, Trump is like, I'll decide who gets to buy it. And you're like, sure, that's not I think that's how business works.

1:18:22 Totally. You you basically two people come to the father and say I would like it. It's like Solomon, I'll cut CNN in half and then one of you can take

1:18:31 Yeah. And then the father says you basically says you have x amount of time to make it worth my while. You know,

1:18:37 right? You got to make it worth my while and you got to change it so that every time I turn it on, it makes me feel good. And that's the only thing that works. By the way, I thought it was interesting that, you know, I came into it with sort of the idea that, oh, we're being led by this sort of mercurial uh and they're following the whims. And I don't know, but I did leave thinking, oh, this is a darker, deeper plan.

1:19:00 There does seem to be like a unifying theory, weirdly, which is I mean, I think it goes back to what you say, which is big, [ __ ] small. You can see it from what's going on in Minneapolis to what's going on in Venezuela. It's the one thing that seems to unite it all, which is just like this dick swinging contest.

1:19:18 But it's big, [ __ ] small. But it's in in regards to it's not just a theory of power. It's a theory of returning to a more colonial economy, an extraction economy of those weaker economies and your country being more homogeneous. like there is actually now metrics rather than just oh we have more weapons so we can take what we want like but why are we doing

1:19:45 I also think something that you touched on that I can't get my head around is like the ideological malleability of MAGA like two seconds ago it was America first a type of isolationism and then and Steve Bannon who was the mouthpiece partially for it is now saying well there is that western exceptionalism for isolation It's like, oh, okay.

1:20:08 There's there's a lot of exceptions that go along there, but I think the the larger point is it is a return to great homogeneous heritage-based powers extracting the resources they need from the unwashed masses of lessers. Like, it's that I think it's that dirty and dark in a lot of respects. And what they don't understand is the fresh hell that they've unleashed, not just morally, but in terms of stability and their ability to manage it.

1:20:41 Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna miss the postwar world order when it's gone. Yeah, they're going to they're I kind of like that. You're going to miss this world. You know what? Maybe that's the way to go here. Why don't we just [ __ ] guilt them into this? We worked very hard on that world order. You're going to miss it when it's gone. It's a terrible, terrible thing. Uh, now we've been gone forever. While we were gone, was the audience still active in some way? Were there things that they are we are we done?

1:21:07 Absolutely. All right. What do they We got loads of questions for you. All right, let's do it.

1:21:12 Uh, first up, John. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bill and Hillary Clinton have announced that they won't comply with the subpoena from the House Oversight Committee's investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think that they should comply?

1:21:26 I absolutely do. But why should they comply if the Department of Justice is not complying with releasing the files? Like does is compliance a a kind of specialized individual indigenous uh opportunity or is it should it be universal? Uh I mean the Department of Justice has subpoenaed them to testify in the Jeffrey Epstein case while not complying with releasing the files. So how does that comport in any but do I personally think they should comply? Abso fuckingutely. Absolutely. And and if they've got something uh to to hide or an affair, like yes, we should know about all this. This is this is bonkers how long this is going on.

1:22:10 And we have only seen such a fraction. What I think I was reading it's like 2 million files still have to come out.

1:22:17 It's 1% is what I've seen. Yeah. Like that we've seen. And the casual nature in these emails are like, "Hey, can you get me an Indian and a red head?" Like it's they're just casually is literally like they're ordering from, you know, uh uh Uber Eatats

1:22:33 and the spelling errors. It's humiliating. The grammar that would bother Jillian the most.

1:22:41 These people you think they're titans of the world and they can't I mean can't type on a Blackberry.

1:22:49 The grammar police have also indicted. The grammar police are doing more here than

1:22:55 No, I think I think that's wise. But absolutely, they should they should comply and the Department of Justice should comply and these victims uh of uh this heinous case should finally get some of the justice and peace that they deserve for God's sakes. [ __ ] thing.

1:23:12 Next up, John, which one do you like doing more, the Daily Show or the Weekly Show?

1:23:18 Oh, that is an excellent, excellent question. Uh I we're all listening. Any anytime you can do something in your house, if they would let me do the daily show from my house, it may have the edge. Uh it's the whole thing is just per you. You guys know that generally when I'm not doing this show or uh the daily show that I am in a state of stasis where uh the charger is unplugged and I sit quietly not talking to anybody uh for for 5 days. So uh I I love the interaction of all of it. uh it helps uh you know I spend all the rest of my time when I'm not doing that reading articles about how not to get Alzheimer's and uh the only way to do it apparently is to continue uh collaborating and being around people and engaging in the world and and this is the manner by which I I choose to do it and you are the people that I love doing it with.

1:24:24 So that's that's no take that daily show. Yeah. Yeah. Boom. That was the takeaway.

1:24:31 Well, I I I'm I meant both. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Cut that. I'm taking it. But I will say uh the commute to the Weekly Show is much preferable.

1:24:43 It's pretty good. They got any more anymore for us? Yeah. Saw you joined Instagram, John. Does that mean you're through with Twitter? Sorry. X.

1:24:52 Uh uh I did join, but I'm not really sure what to do with it. Uh no one else is. Unfortunately, I joined it and and and then but then I was like, "So now what do I do?" And then I was like, "So that I have to take a picture if I want to put something on there." Like you can't just write [ __ ] You got to take a picture. So I I haven't used it yet, but I did join it and I am going to put something there. I I'll probably like put our stuff on there and Daily Show stuff on there and maybe figure out some other [ __ ] if I can figure it out.

1:25:24 But yeah, Twi Twitter's rough, man. Like it's like there's only so many times that I say something random on Twitter like where I can be told I'm a Jew where you're just like hey this is getting a little like I know I'm aware like not hiding it'd be okay if you don't have to jump on and tell me like and the thing I don't and by the way Instagram could be the same [ __ ] thing. I have no idea. It just seems like a slightly less toxic environment than the one that appears to have developed. But you guys you guys are on it. What do you think?

1:25:59 Just toxic in a different way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think people are going to tell me I'm a Jew on both platforms and and and I'm not I mean the nice thing for me is my life is relatively drab. So there will be no posturing about the fabulous uh you know fabulosity of all this. So, I I feel no pressure in in that regard. As you guys can see, we were laughing about it earlier uh by the way I dress and look like I gave up about 17 years ago. So,

1:26:28 I'm sure there's some thirst traps on the camera roll waiting waiting for their moment.

1:26:33 Yeah. Listen, thirst traps. I don't even I shower in my clothes now. It's it's it's bad. Jillian, are you on you're on Instagram, too? Yeah.

1:26:42 Yeah, I'm on Instagram. I'm not on X, the Everything app. I I love myself too much for that.

1:26:49 People are it's [ __ ] wild, man. Like it's and and you really don't like you just think to yourself like I really do hope actually this is a Russian bot because if there's a human being out there who really felt the need in their day like seconds after I posted something to just jump on there and be like, I'll never forgive you for the rally to restore sanity. You're like where what's your life?

1:27:12 The good news is it certainly is a Russian bot. What's your [ __ ] life? They all are Russian box.

1:27:18 Well, I can't wait to see your Instagram aesthetic. Oh, it's Well, it would be a lot like my Pinterest boards, I guess.

1:27:25 Okay. It's going to be mostly Ann Taylor. Is that still a company? Yes, it is. All right.

1:27:34 Great sales. Is it all right? I thought that was a reference from a while back, but I wasn't quite sure. Uh well uh guys, it's it's so good to be back with you and to get my Alzheimer's medicine for the day and uh uh we'll move there. But as always uh great preparation, great work. So lovely to have you guys back. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittney Mavic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vtolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thank you guys so much uh for rejoining us after a lovely break and we shall see you guys next week.

1:28:10 The Weekly Show with John Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bus Boy Productions.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Trump’s Domination Politics with Fareed Zakaria | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"?

Jon Stewart (Host), Fareed Zakaria (Guest).

What is "Trump’s Domination Politics with Fareed Zakaria | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart" about?

This content explores the complex dynamics of power and politics under the Trump administration, drawing parallels with figures like Hugo Chavez and discussing the influence of major oil reserves in countries like Venezuela. It delves into the implications of U.S. foreign policy decisions and the chaotic nature of global events, while seeking to understand the broader motivations behind Trump's…

What is mentioned in this The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart episode?

31 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Fared Zakaria, John Stewart, illiberal democracy, American Constitution, Russia, Hugo Chavez. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Trump’s Domination Politics with Fareed Zakaria | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"?

The episode runs 1 h 28 min; the transcript is about 15,263 words in 192 timestamped sections.

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