Trump’s New World Disorder with Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on Donald Trump's perception of the European Union as a hostile entity that undermines the United States, reflecting a broader skepticism towards foreign alliances and liberal democratic values. Experts Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev analyze the implications of this view for transatlantic relations and explore the potential dismantling of established alliances in favor of a different political strategy.

Key takeaways

• Trump's Europe view: ally or adversary? Surprisingly, both roles hinge on his understanding—or lack thereof.
• Davos catering shocker: even elite forums can serve up disappointment—who knew diplomacy came with stale pastries?
• Macron's 'Aviators' and humor reveal an irreverent side, showcasing how global leaders navigate serious discussions with levity.
• 'The Hammer' persona in politics: a mix of bravado and menace that Europeans find bewildering yet oddly familiar.
• Davos chaos reflects global tension: Trump's mere presence sparks debates, overshadowing the forum's original diplomatic purpose.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Jon Stewart (Host) · 34 min speaking
• Adam Tooze (Guest) · 26 min speaking
• Ivan Krastev (Guest) · 26 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: John Stewart, Adam Tus, Ivon Kradev, United States of America
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Ground News, Adam Tus
3. 20:00 – 30:00: China
4. 30:00 – 40:00: European Union, Avocado Green Mattress
5. 50:00 – 1:00:00: European Union
6. 1:10:00 – 1:20:00: Factor, United States of America
7. 1:20:00 – 1:25:53: John Stewart

Notable quotes from "Trump’s New World Disorder with Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"

• Hey everybody, welcome to the Weekly Show podcast. My name is John Stewart.

  about John Stewart · at 0:28

• We're looking to foreignly relate to the EU and also our good friend Adam Tus you obviously know his chartbook Substack, but what you may not know is and by the way, gentlemen, welcome.

  about Adam Tus · at 2:11

• And the United States of America, as I've just articulated, really, really matters to the world. When America shines, the world shines, because they all need to make sure…

  about United States of America · at 6:45

• Information and news are a nightmare right now. Just an incessant algorithmic stream of nonsense. Ground News's website and an app that helps the readers navigate the…

  about Ground News · at 12:49

• Literally sat and took a note Ian which was they have this idea of the flow and the tide of history and the Chinese have this intact coherent modernist kind of vision and if…

  about China · at 21:37

• States if you do this. What is the point of being there? But this is a very interesting question because I do believe that there are people around him who still believe that…

  about European Union · at 54:54

• Authoritarianism and so on. I don't see it like this. I do believe that the real problem is that the border between democracy and authoritarianism is the least protected border in the world.

  about Ivon Kradev · at 1:06:08

• Head to factormeals.com/tws50 off and use code TWWS50 off to get 50% off your first Factor box plus free breakfast for a year.

  about Factor · at 1:12:58

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• John Stewart — Person · Host · 4 mentions · first at 0:28
  He frames the episode’s thesis, interviews the guests, and repeatedly challenges interpretations of Trump’s motives and the durability of the liberal-democratic order.
• Adam Tus — Person · Main guest / on-the-ground commentator at Davos · 3 mentions · first at 1:33
  He reports from Davos, describes moderating a panel featuring Howard Lutnick and others, and analyzes Europe–U.S. tensions, coercion, and institutional dynamics (EU/Brussels).
• Ivon Kradev — Person · Main guest / referenced expert on Europe · 2 mentions · first at 1:38
  He provides an East European perspective on Trump, nationalism, demography, and the fragility of the democracy–authoritarianism boundary; he is introduced as author of 'After Europe.'
• Rachel Ree — Person · Referenced UK official (panelist mentioned in passing) · 1 mention · first at 4:38
  Mentioned as the 'UK Treasury Secretary' on the Davos panel; likely a transcript/NER error for UK Chancellor Rachel Reeves.
  It turned out, of hosting Howard Lutnik, the commerce secretary and his embarrassed analoges, Rachel Ree, who's the UK Treasury Secretary and Minister Champagne of Canada. Mark…

Concepts & topics

• European Union — Concept · Core topic · 5 mentions · first at 31:04
  Discussed in relation to Trump's views and the potential dismantling of Atlantic alliances.

Places & events

• United States of America — Place · Setting · 2 mentions · first at 6:33
  Central to discussions about foreign policy, alliances, and Trump's strategies.
• China — Place · Referenced location · 2 mentions · first at 3:51
  Discussed in relation to trade, tariffs, and global power dynamics.

Sponsors

• Ground News — Product · Sponsor · 3 mentions · first at 12:39
  Promoted as a tool to navigate the news cycle without bias.
• Factor — Product · Sponsor · 3 mentions · first at 1:12:16
  Promoted as a convenient meal delivery service.
• Avocado Green Mattress — Product · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 32:23
  Promoted as a high-quality, non-toxic mattress option.
  Sleep well, you got to sleep there on what they call an avocado green mattress. Avocado green mattress. It sells mattresses. You know that it's in the name, but also pillows…

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Trump views though the EU as being having been created to hurt the United States. I mean he he already views it in a kind of very aggressive. I don't think he views it as allied with the United States in that way.

0:13 No, but also in a certain way he view as hostile everything that he does not understand.

0:21 No, that is true. Like dogs. Hey everybody, welcome to the Weekly Show podcast. My name is John Stewart. I'm the host of the Weekly Show podcast and we are here uh during exciting times. It is January 20th. I think this is coming out on the 21st, which is the day that Trump lands uh in Europe, reverse Mayflower. He's getting on the probably not boat, I would say nuclear power submarine and landing at Davos to tell them which parts of Europe he would like. the Whitman sampler of all that Europe has to offer and what he will be putting in his rucks sack and taking back to the United States. We're actually talking to uh two really just fascinating I think experts on on Europe and the political scene there and as it relates uh to America. go through uh myriad of ideas in terms of is there an actual strategy behind the dismantling of uh the Atlantic alliances and maybe moving away from this whole uh I don't know what you

1:27 would call it liberal democracy model which has so so been an albatross around America's neck for so long. Uh, so we're gonna get to Adam Tus and Ivon Kradev. We're we're jumping right in today, guys. We're, as I've always promised on this podcast, we are nothing if not reacting to the day news, even though we only have it once a week. We are here in a an astonishing moment in history. Uh, we have Ivon Crev who is the chairman Center for Liberal Strategies located in Bulgaria. Also, by the way, founding board member of the European Council on on Foreign Relations, which may come in handy right right around now when when we're looking to foreignly relate uh to the EU and and also our our good friend Adam Tus uh you obviously know his his chartbook Substack, but what you may not know is and by the way, gentlemen, welcome.

2:25 Well, thank you for having us. I I don't want to jump in with the excitement, but my god, Adam, you're in Davos.

2:34 Yeah. And you just had a panel. Tell tell us a little bit as we get started uh on your panel uh that you held in in Davos. And then we can talk about what the breakfast what the continental breakfast is there, the types of pastries. But but tell us about this panel.

2:51 The dark secret of Davos is the catering sucks. So yeah, it is it is not it is not the honeypot that you're promised. It is brutal.

3:00 That is stunning. It is brutal. It is brutal. This is that this is the sensational piece of information in this podcast.

3:05 That's going to get pickup, Adam. That's getting pickup. You do not come here for the the luxury entertaining.

3:11 I would have thought hot and cold running musli. Am I wrong? Yeah. Well, that would be Yeah, but it's all and all day long. Um, yeah, the whole the whole forum is overshadowed by by by Greenland and and well, just Trump in general. If it hadn't been Greenland, it would have been the Fed. And if it hadn't been the Fed, it would have been Venezuela. But because the forum, though it is a global organization, has its heart beating in Europe. This really comes home here. And we're just waiting as a series of buildups for Trump's promised arrival tomorrow afternoon. God knows when. The whole place will be in chaos all day long. But we've had Besson, I had Lutnick, we've had Macron, the Chinese vice premier, we've had Vonda.

3:54 Am I wrong to think Macron was sporting what appeared to be Tom Cruz aviators while giving a speech?

4:01 The gossip is that he was high as a height to be absolutely honest and he came across that way. Um I mean he was jolly. He was a disinhibited speech. As he was speaking, I could actually hear faintly, "Highway to the danger zone."

4:18 It was crazy. He made a he made a reference to dick size as whether or not this was going to be like this was driving it. He

4:26 a Danish MP told the American president in in language he thought he might understand. [ __ ] off, he told him.

4:33 It's real. So then I had the pleasure, it turned out, of hosting Howard Lutnik, the the commerce secretary and his embarrassed analoges, Rachel Ree, who's the UK Treasury Secretary and uh Minister Champagne of of of Canada. Mark Carney was speaking and apparently gave like he just flamed the Americans while we were on the panel.

4:54 Stem winder, baby. Stem winder. And then we had CEO of Bank of America and CEO of Ernest and Young um to kind of give us the business perspective. And um I mean I love doing this kind of like highwire chairing is is is it's I don't need to tell you it's it has its own fascination, its own dynamic energy.

5:16 And we were brief to wind things up a little bit. We were told not to play things down. So, so I didn't and I just asked bluntly asked like essentially

5:26 you bluntly asked about Greenland. You you you went straight Greenland. I Well, I mean I Well, he set himself up because he was he came into the green room like boasting about all the money was mobilizing. So, I was like quizzing a bit and at some point he literally said, you got to understand when it comes down to it, I am quote the hammer. Like it's like some, you know, some ambulance chaser advertising on the New York subway. He referred to himself

5:51 as the hammer. As the hammer. Yeah. So gift to moderator Mr. Commerce Secretary on the one hand I hear will be a bully energy and then I hear this note of menace. How would you anticipate Europeans who are not fundamentally differently wired than you reacting to this kind of mixture? Um, that didn't go very well and and he went off down his track and then I brought him back and he just point blank refuses to ask questions about Greenland and about the Fed.

6:22 Can I bring you back to Greenland? No, it's it's unnecessary. It's it's the Western Hemisphere is vital for the United States of America. Our national security people are on it and they care about it. And I'm going to leave it to them to address with our allies, with our friends, and with everyone how they work it out. But the Western Hemisphere matters to the United States of America. And the United States of America, as I've just articulated, really, really matters to the world. When America shines, the world shines, because they all need to make sure America is strong and powerful to take care of them, God forbid. And so I think America and the Western Hemisphere are vital to America.

7:05 And I'm going to leave that to my national security people to address. Right. It was as brutal a kind of, you know, pulling down the the um the roller blinds as I've seen on a panel like this. Very unusual because it lays you open, right? It doesn't it's not really a more sophisticated way of just absorbing it would have been to roll with a hip and to give some kind of spiel.

7:28 No, he shuts it down. You know, it's incredible for someone to refer to themselves as the hammer and then be presented with nails and say, "Oh, no, no, no, that's not, you know, what I saw from Lutnik was, "No, no, no. That's not my I I defer to my colleagues in the uh uh, you know, international departments." Now, Ivon, I I want to bring you in here. You've been observing this for years. You are the author of the book After Europe. I'm assuming you are working as we speak on After America, the sequel uh to to After Europe. uh a as you watched I'm I'm assuming you did uh some of Adam's panel in in Davos and some of the other uh how much of this did you anticipate as being uh the kind of underlying cleavage point between America and the EU and the world order of the past 80 years and and I is this a crystallizing of a moment you foresaw? Yeah, listen, I do believe that it's a moment which it's not easy to

8:30 forget from this point of view. By the way, it's very interesting if you see West Europeans and East Europeans how we're reacting to this. I do believe West Europeans are shocked because they don't understand what Trump is doing. And East Europeans, we are scared because we do

8:49 brilliance sir because we have seen this before in a certain way. This is a revolutionary moment and he basically going he's overtaken to be honest. The problem with the revolutions is that you cannot run them. They're running you. So at some point you don't know what you're doing because the speed is overtaking you. You start your radicalizing. Uh if you're going to ask him probably three months ago how important Greenland was, he not going to tell you. But now he cannot stop. And here in my view is the interesting story because Europeans and this is where I do believe Trump totally misread Europe. uh he said that Europe is weak and this is true but Europe is so weak that we cannot cave up.

9:29 This is the paradox. Well now why do you say that? Yeah because listen uh Europeans now is when it comes to Greenland this is very much facing your own societies

9:40 because of course he could have get to be honest he has been gotten Greenland if he was quiet if he takes time if he was talking to the Danish. The paradox is that they would

9:51 I'm sorry we are we are we discussing Donald Trump still if he was quiet and consiliatory

9:57 but exactly but he cannot do this because in a certain way this is a very interesting story I always believe that if uh he was in a movie production he was never going to produce films just trailers

10:13 that is absolutely true Ivon he he he loves the announcement he loves the pronouncement he does not like the maintenance and the follow through. And I think you're beginning to see that so much of Well, let let's even bring it around to sort of the central lever uh by which he is using coercion and that's the tariffs.

10:30 Well, this is why I thought it was fair game. Yeah. Ask that Nick. He's tariff man. He

10:35 he's tariff man. He's the hammer. Adam, you were exactly right. But uh we negotiated with the EU. First of all, he threw out all the deals that that had been done and renegotiated new tariff levels, right? Everybody agreed. Everybody walks in. Now, not even 6 months later, he decides, okay, I know we negotiated all these deals with Europe.

11:00 Uh, and we have our tariffs in place. I am now going to throw those over. So, at every turn, if you don't do what I want, I am going to re-examine these negotiations. Adam, that that has to be the most then what is the point of anything of any treaty?

11:18 I mean, it's real abusers language. The the way they do it is to say, "Look, you're getting, you know, you're getting all upset. We're just threatening you and brutalizing you, and you know what's going to happen? We're going to sit down afterwards and make up, and then it's all going to be okay."

11:32 It's literally that kind of language of serial abusive relationships. like, you know, I love you actually, but you know, I had a bad night and

11:42 but he's been taught that there is nothing he can do that makes people walk away and not give him what he wants.

11:51 Yeah. And so they they they will keep coming back and it's not clear it's really a ratchet, right? Because China's ended up in a really remarkably favorable tariff position. China of course pushed back and said like this far and no further. I'm agreeing I would agree with you Ivan that this does seem like a moment where Europe might finally start moving down that route. Um they have this thing called the anti-coercion instrument which was of course devised for China and Russia because the Europeans were worried about rare earth type moves or gas cut offs from the Russians and of I think no it was Macron that said it today like if we use that instrument against America the world is topsyturvy.

12:37 All right kids an oldie but a goodie. Our old friend is back. ground news. Boy, do we need this. Helping you stay clear-headed in an online news slog. Information and news are a nightmare right now. Just an incessant algorithmic stream of nonsense. Ground News's website and an app that helps the readers navigate the unrelenting news cycle organizes the headlines from across the news spectrum by story and shows visual breakdowns of political bias and ownership. Where has this been? Ground News avoids bias, refuses to run ads, and rejects individualized news feed algorithms.

13:19 Founded by a former NASA engineer. Are you a NASA engineer? Probably not. And the platform remains independently operated and supported by its subscribers. This is what we've been waiting for. Go to groundnews.com/stewart or scan the QR code on screen to see how any news story is being framed by news outlets around the world and across the political spectrum. Use the link groundnews.com/stewart or scan the QR code to get 40% off the Vantage plan which unlocks all Ground News features. Ivon, I am very dubious that Europe will I mean this is part of Trump's strategy is he believes Western Europe, the liberal Europe, you know, to Trump, France is gay. That's his problem with all of this. Like he doesn't like enlightenment Europe. He likes Hungary Europe. He likes the right-wing authoritarian Europe. And in some respects, isn't what he's doing further weakening what we consider to be enlightenment Europe and empowering

14:28 I won't even say Maloney. I think he's gone much further than that, but empowering Orban and the others. And isn't it maybe more likely that his his theater further weakens people like Macron and Starmer uh and strengthens the illiberal leaders. Listen, this is I do believe it's uh his major mistake because of course there is particularly in Eastern part of Europe people who like his anti-immigration policy. As you know, Eastern Europe is not particularly the place where sexual minorities are dwarfed. But Greenland is different.

15:08 Listen, it's about land. It's about territory. And here's the problem. Most of these people on the far on European far right they're nationalists which means they know their history and they believe that the land is secer and he has a real estate view of land and they're not like this and one of the paradoxes that if it was about any type of a war or if it was about migration he was going to have an allies and now his allies are silent. So he's allowing by the way I don't know how uh interested and to certain extent how skillful the liberal leaders are going to be but it is the moment to have a new consensus on Europe and do you know what happened in the European Parliament when basically they decided not uh to ratify uh the trade deal that was reached six months ago and then when the president of the parliament said we standing behind Denmark and Greenland so the mainstream parties there members of the

16:10 European parl ment from the mainstream parties went up and then suddenly one by one the nationalistic MP starting to stand up again also including the urban people

16:22 because this is the story which he got totally wrong because he's not a classical nationalist he's not interested in history to be honest he's not interested in future and this is why it's so difficult to have a contract with him if somebody does not believe that future matters you cannot have a contract with him because is based on the fact that there is future and I'm not sure that Trump is interested in anything which is beyond his life uh uh time and and this is why he created a difficult moment for his allies. Yes, for sure. East European countries are going to insist that we are not going to use the bazooka, that we are going to be more proportional. This is for sure. But you should have listened to the Polish prime minister Tusqu went very hard and listen for Poland which is the most pro-American part.

17:08 Yes, for him basically America was defense from uh from Russia. The way he start talking about this, it means also that he knows that his public or the majority of the polls on these issues are going to side with Europe and not with Trump.

17:24 Let me ask you, let me push back a second on one thing and that was and then Adam, I'm going to ask you. Donald Trump when you say he's only interested in his lifetime, I actually think it it in some ways might be the opposite. I think he thinks only in terms of legacy. Look, he puts his name like an eight-year-old on everything that he owns. And he views through the prism of of history this idea that I'll be the Louisiana purchase guy. I'll be Seward's F. I'll I'll get America, Alaska. I'll get them Greenland. I almost think he's thinking it's not about that he doesn't think past his lifetime. it's that he doesn't think about what we're going to need to manage and hold on to this new world order that he's creating. But Adam, go ahead.

18:15 I like that version. I mean, I think there is a neonist group within the Trump administration that is closely affiliated with the AFD and Orban and so on.

18:27 No question. But I would associate them more with the Millers and the Vances in the administration. I think there's a Rubio Conwin which is probably having a pretty hard time with all of this because they're a more conventional NATO orientated Atlanticist kind of side. And then I think the president is super generous and I totally agree with you John. What really struck me is some line about how America's been trying to get this deal done for 150 years. president after president has wanted to buy this this this real estate and I want it and I want my name on it and and and that is the that is the key and I think it's these differences within the Trump coalition we're seeing it here at Daros I mean they're doing they're doing some they did an event for the churin shroud under the headline the world's first selfie was Jesus in America's America's pavilion which is celebrating 250 years of the United

19:25 States. They got Jillian Tet, the anthropologist editor of the ex- editor of the FT to preside over an American hosted event on the Churin Shrout. Like there's that element and then there's Donald Trump really wanting to because I also feel Donald Trump loves he kind of likes he likes Scotland. He loves the glitz of Paris. He

19:44 well he likes Scotland because he has golf courses there. But if Scotland didn't let him build, he would hate Scotland. He appreciates good guilt work and he knows you can't get it in the US and they have it in spades in Paris and his mate Macron who's a bit of a player actually kind of digs him which is why he's saying like you know Donald what's wrong what are you doing in in Greenland I don't understand

20:07 oh my lord but I think there is a faction in the Trump which is which is really down the right the the East European Hungarian side

20:15 Adam you're right but it's different about him because normally uh this is about legacy probably but he cannot trust that when he's going to die they're going to make all this naming after him and this is the interesting story this is a person who wants to give the speech on his funeral

20:32 yes precisely no question and this is very important he wants to do it for himself and this is why in my view his understanding of time is very interesting I remember when he was uh uh uh talking about what uh they have discussed with the Chinese president he said she promised me that he's not going to attack Taiwan while I'm in power. And I do believe this is important because on the other side, for how long you're going to leave, how long you're going to be in power, this is changing dramatically. I do believe we're totally underestimating the importance, for example, of the famous Putin sheet talk about we're going to leave 250 years.

21:11 There is something happening with the idea of time. And he is, this is why he is so on one level exceptional, but on the other level symptomatic for something that is beyond him. And this is why trying to focus psychologically on Trump. In my view, we're making a mistake. It was so interesting hearing the Chinese vice premier today who gave you know the Chinese come and they have these extraordinarily technocratic senior politicians and it was precise. I literally sat and took a note Ian which was they have this idea of the flow and the tide of history and the Chinese have this intact coherent modernist kind of vision and if you do Trumpy things the real problem with them is not that they're bad or wrong it's just they're out of keeping with the time and history will punish you and and this obviously is just completely disintegrated in the in the in the Trump camp. So let's let's take a step back for a moment and look

22:05 at this from that more historical perspective and maybe get a sense of what's going on here. My understanding of the formulation of this special relationship is based on sort of a World War II era feeling uh that this is a battle between liberal democracies, foundational constitutional republics and authoritarianism. whether that authoritarianism reared its uh face in communism or fascism. So we were going to demonstrate that free peoples rule with a wiser, more stable, more prosperous hand. And we did all kinds of uh you know uh alliances but basically it was we were going to prove that capitalism and democracy and the the consent of the governed was far preferable not just morally but also in terms of tangible result than these other authoritarian uh regimes.

23:17 that original bargain, that original uh uh sort of what what drew us together, I think is over. And what appears to me to be is it is now an alliance, Trump being merely uh an implement of that between the battle between woke and not woke. And that's how they're drawing. So when everybody talks about what does Putin have on Trump? Putin doesn't have [ __ ] on Trump. They agree and the acolytes that's what everyone's trying to hide here is that in truth Trump actually and that side of America agrees. We want a less gay friendly, more religious uh anti- elite rule by strong men. What what do you guys think of that new as that being the polarity of the world? Am I overstating it?

24:17 I do believe you are touching on something important but slightly overstating it.

24:22 Bring it. Bring it. I do believe that behind this of course is a major important fear but it's very much rooted in demography. It's much more the fertility rate and here the gay men and the gay women are much more the symbol of why we do not have kids. uh this fear that one level uh your country is very powerful but on the other side that it's in total decline and this is very important for not only for Trump but for the right-wing imagination because you start to live like the last man why we are not reproducing what is happening is this not a suicidal societies is this a kind of individualism and so on I totally agree with you that they don't think in terms of democracy versus authoritarianism and secondly Trump himself in a certain way he talks that America is great but I don't believe he does not trust American model neither as an economic model nor it as a political model he's older than

25:16 envying others he's envying the Gauss he is envying the Chinese he trusts it in the hands of and this is what gets to what I'm talking about he does trust the American model as long as it's in the hands of white

25:31 Christian that's when he trusts it the whole thing you're talking about in terms of demographic They're only concerned about demographics in the sense that minorities. Look, Elon Musk just put out on his platform. He agreed with it uh a statement about if whites are ever the minority, they'll be slaughtered. This is what they're talking about.

25:55 Totally agree. And he is very important because for all this talk about cold war uh we believe that the most important thing that happened in 1989 was what happened in Berlin the end of the fall of the wall. But in a certain way if you see these people they identify 1989 what happened in South Africa. Suddenly you have a majority which is different than us.

26:17 And by the way it's much easier to become from communist anti-communist than from white to become black and the other way around.

26:22 I've seen movies about that. I think that's true. Yeah. Yeah. And you know there are too many people not like us and democracy is about numbers and this comes the fear of democracy because democracy at the end of the day is counting and the fact that we are going to be outvoted. This created this kind of anxiety about democracy and this is not by accident that most of these people they're not so much talking how you're going to govern the world but how you try to run out of the world how to escape. We should go to Mars. And by the way, why Greenland is so interesting? Greenland is important because you have everything there but no people.

27:01 Uh in a certain way, you have the resources. I don't believe that we should go on another planet. This is particularly when it comes from uh uh from the Silicon Valley type of an imagination because this world is becoming kind of unlivable for us.

27:15 But if it's unlivable for the billionaires that control everything, what chance do the rest of us have? But Adam, speak to get back to I is this what's happening? Is America now acting as though they are fearful of democracy and that democracy actually is the wrong thing because we've populated the country with people that they don't believe are worthy of that? I do think the race I don't want to play these off against each other, but if you I think the race as an organizing category is more powerful than woke in general.

27:51 Yeah. Okay. Because historically I think the form of conservatism and rightism that has clustered around Trump

27:59 comes out of the backlash against civil rights. I mean if you think about the American polity is going through a series of convulsive major changes. One is the new deal and another one is the civil rights revolution. and then you know the civil war and reconstruction before that

28:13 and and the immigration changes at the same time civil rights act right so and and Trump has a solid track record as a standard racist an anti-black racist in his party days he was notably he's not a standard conservative on sexuality including on homosexuality right so I think the line this idea of kind of great displacement that the savagery ICE, the casual anti-lack, anti-Chinese. I mean, just the comprehensive um white white power kind of vision that rings true to me as an organizing idea of of a conservatism. Does it make you hostile to democracy? I'm not sure that follows. It makes you hostile to liberal versions of it or the version that American liberals have pushed. It makes you hostile to the inhibiting norms of the rule of law, all those kind of things. But of course, their idea is that once you get the citizenry down to the sort of people who should be allowed to vote, then that group will solidly

29:19 return their kind of politics, right? So, I don't think it's it's illiberal. It it certainly wants to I mean one of the most shocking pieces of news in the last 24 hours is that the Americans have clearly been waging a campaign against trench judges presiding over the case that was going to prosecute Marine Le Pen for various types of corrup corruption corrupt practices and officials from the American embassy visited French judges and so they have a thing for judges. They have a thing for the independence of the judiciary. This is a problem. But understand this, they've been doing that around the world.

29:56 Around the world they did that with they they put 50% tariffs on Brazil to get Bolson.

30:01 But this is to do with the independence of the law, right? So it's not democracy, it's the independence of the law.

30:06 But but dude, there is some important paradox. And the paradox is the following. Look at some of the countries that he likes a lot. Emirates.

30:12 Yeah. The Gulf countries. Listen, this is the countries with the highest number of immigrants in the world.

30:18 So it's not about migration. It's about migration with rights. Yes. if they're going to come simply as a labor.

30:24 Yeah. Those are workers, laborers. They don't have full rights. Exactly. And this is the very this is in my view the story and I don't believe this is very famous. You know, in 1953 uh during the uh the anti-communist protest in East Berlin Bre has this famous poem when he said if the government does not like the people they should elect the new people. Uh and this now suddenly you have a governments who believe that they should elect people.

30:49 Yeah. because otherwise the situation is getting out of control. So immigrants are fine. By the way, this is also true for Europe. People normally are going to say Victor Orban is very much uh against foreigners. Do you know that in 2018, Hungary was the country that gave the most uh labor permits uh in the European Union. The problem is about you can share labor market. What you are not going to share is power. And this understanding of democracy where citizenship goes with ethnicity, with race, with things like this. This is changing

31:22 and it goes all the way back. I mean this Yeah. If you look at the constitutions of Australia as it becomes an independent Commonwealth, which was a huge inspiration for racists in California and also conversations in South Africa. It literally says that we will decide who the people are.

31:37 Yeah. Right. With a view to excluding Asian migrants. Right. So this this breian quip that the government should elect a new people is for those who have always been addicted to trying to defend white rule at the frontiers of power. This has always been a key legal I mean explicitly formulated constitutional principle.

32:01 Hey I just how did you sleep last night? Did you wake up at two sweating, thinking a little bit about what if Greenland invades us? What did you ever think about that? Yeah. Well, uh I I I I didn't sleep very well. But here's the other thing. If you want to sleep well, you got to sleep there on on what they call an avocado green mattress. Avocado green mattress. It sells mattresses. You know that it's in the name, but also pillows, solid wood furniture. It's all made with the materials that support your sleep. Restorative sleep, not the crappy sleep that you get with the I guess what you call two melatonins and three gapants.

32:46 That's not the right sleep. And you get all of it without the harmful chemicals. They use certified organic non-toxic materials. Offer sleep trials of up to a year to make sure you get the best mattress for you. And I don't see anybody else doing that. Avocado. Dream of better. And now they're having a great sale on mattresses. Go to avocadogreenmattress.com/tws to get up to 15% off. That's avocadogreenmattress.com/tws for up to 15% off of mattresses. Avocadoomattress.com/tws. Now, I want to separate, you know, the the what we're doing in Greenland and what we're doing in Venezuela from this larger context about uh democracies because to my mind again, the exceptionalism that supposedly was America was that we were going to do away with that. that that the rights of citizenship are unalienable and that the people that are there, if they are citizens, that the whole point of it was that it wasn't going to be tied to a

33:52 religion, a race, a practice, a political ideology, that it would be about the consent of the govern within a constitutionallymandated system. That was supposed to be what was so novel and again what transformed what was either feudal systems or warlord systems or authoritarian systems into this prosperous world order. Which by the way, and I want you guys to comment on this. How crazy is it that America is complaining about the 80 years since World War II of the world order that we created? This is what we we were the driving factors of disarmament of these various places of creating of these uh institutions. That was us.

34:37 But John, the last serious effort to buy Greenland was made in the 1940s by the people who made that global order. So the the glitch in this the glitch in this is that like at the moment they were creating that order.

34:51 Yes. They had their eye on Greenland because you know it is a it is just and in World War II it had proved important real estate and its position within Denmark and the Danish sovereignty is really ambiguous. It's the product of settler colonialism, right? So this is

35:06 but we all are. Yeah. We well many of us many of us more some more than others, right? But but

35:14 so we we have to be we have to be realistic about the logic of that earlier epoch of power

35:21 that is celebrated now in retrospect. So am I making a mistake Adam in in by thinking about this through an idealistic prism? Is that the mistake we make when we try and are the formulations of our criticism should they not be moral and idealistic but actually much more pragmatic?

35:43 But is it also not true that part of the strengths of Trump came from the fact that for many people around the world disorder was disorder?

35:51 Yeah. Yes. And for example his major point was I'm against liberal hypocrisy. We are talking about democracy but in many places it was not about democracy from this point of view the legitimacy of Trump paradoxically comes from the fact that here's the nightmare for the conspiracy theorist because before America goes to Venezuela talk about democracy people suspect it's about oil and then he comes and said no no it's only about oil

36:16 it's about oil you cannot be conspiracy theorist anymore unless you believe that he goes there for democracy and just talks about oil

36:23 and then Exxon shows up and says we can't invest Exactly. It's like Yeah. But what he's not understanding is that hypocrisy of course was awful and many of the people hated it. But also hypocrisy is a constraint because I'm saying that I go for democracy. I should do certain things and there are certain things that I will not do. And from this point of view this is in my view changing dramatically because what Trump does not understand he as every revolutionary leader does not respect borders. talking to the French judges for sure.

36:57 Other American diplomats have been talking probably to French judges during the cold war too.

37:02 Yeah. No, no, no. Of course. Old practice. Normally, you are telling to the people, do it because we're going to invite you on our party. And his major story is I'm doing just for the Americans. I don't care about any of you. And this is an interesting story. This is a major change. for the first time you have a kind of a major radical way to change the order. And at the same time, he's not telling anybody else that they can benefit from this. A colleague of mine, an American colleague of mine told me something that is right or wrong, but I believe that it resonated strongly with me. He said, "It's not by accident that the only business in which Trump really felt spectacularly was the casino business." Because in the casino business in order to make money you at least should try to create the illusions that others are winning

37:51 right and for him allowing others to win is psychological unacceptable and what he didn't like about the liberal order was that if America is so powerful why we're not getting the spoils if we have taken the city why basically we are not allowed to do in the city everything we want

38:09 but Ivon with within that though in what world can we argue that the last 80 years, America hasn't taken the spoils. We may not have distributed very well throughout our population where we have tremendous inequality and and lots of poverty, but who's done better in these last 80 years than we have?

38:32 Uh listen, his answer is going to be in the last 30 years the best did uh China. And then he said how it happened that after World War II Japan and Germany did so well because this is his idea of a zero sum game for him that you are governing not because you're doing well but because your enemies are doing badly and this is interesting he goes and you're totally right America benefited a lot but not everybody and he goes to these poor Americans and said they're telling you that you're the hedgeimon and this American said yes you're right we are not

39:05 I think Japan is cru crucial in this story. Yeah, Japan is crucial because this is how he was socialized

39:11 and this exactly I mean if we think of him biographically that's the key moment and that is not a moment which has you know say China's globalization or Mexico NAFTA you'd say American capital benefited on a really gigantic scale from that

39:26 but not the workers Japan is a more clear-cut case of a national industrial country that really did assert itself now overall It's probably welfare enhancing because the stuff they made was high quality and cheap. Wall Street in the end does begin to uh make footholds in Tokyo. But I think the that experience of the 70s and 80s is really is very formative and I think it just sort of reverbs around and he slots new countries into that space one after the other and that that talk at the time was very common place right this the the that zero sum vision and there's an element you know the the Germans and the Japanese did pursue within the fixed change rate system of Breton Woods um strategies which meant their currencies were undervalued and America Of course in the early stages in the 40s 4748 Marshall plan and so on deliberately accepted that as the trade right they would be part of the American

40:24 hegemonic block in the cold war and American consumers would benefit from the inflow of relatively affordable highquality goods

40:32 and we'd be the reserve currency though for all of it. Yeah. And American industry was so strong it didn't need a worry. It would out compete. It would out innovate. It would rise to the top.

40:41 No stress. And through the early '7s, that bargain works pretty well on balance. Not of course for everyone in American society because of racism and inequality, but nevertheless, standard of living go up. So you don't see that divide opening. And it's really from the mid70s that it breaks down. And at that point, I think a kind of national mechanalism, Japan as the bad guy, merges with a social resentment which is driven by the real stagnation indeed deterioration of the standard of living of the American working class. And you begin to get that hard act coalition, these um labor populist nationalist protectionist forces

41:18 gaining quite a lot of strength. And by the ' 90s like Buchanan and people like this can really begin to make a powerful case along these lines.

41:27 But Buchanan was as a national figure vilified for the nakedness of of what he was talking about in terms of

41:36 you know the blatant racism that we're so beyond Yeah. Buchanan at at this point, but I want to talk about, you know, you say, well, there were flaws in terms of globalization and clearly maybe letting China into the WTO or uh allowing capital to travel so easily when labor couldn't and not figuring out a way to make that uh a more ameliate the kind of downside of that for the American worker, which I wholeheartedly agree with. But reforms to that system could have so strengthened it rather than destroying it because the system they appear to be going back to and this is really what I think people need to understand the system we're going back to in terms of exploiting resources rather than even uh sharing the benefits in a slightly uh you know less fair way. I don't think people understand how much it takes for an empire, what you have to expend to exploit resources, because those other

42:39 countries want to be free, too. Venezuela wants to be free, too. All of them. and the fact that we think, "Oh, we're the biggest, so we'll go in and we'll exploit Greenland and we'll exploit Venezuela." And that people's resentment doesn't have a cost to goods and services seems nuts.

43:03 Uh you you know, you're touching on something critically important, at least from my point of view. uh paradoxically Trump does not understand nationalism. So himself talks about this

43:14 and yet uses it very well because he basically uh really cannot understand that the more you talk about Venezuelan oil for the Venezuelans this becomes the major issue. It became the magic things. The resource nationalism does not come from nowhere. And from this point of view, he's basically fueling the forces that are going to create a problem for the world that he wants to create. Because all these people, even Denmark, that's this absolutely amazing with Denmark. If you look at Denmark, Denmark should be one of the very few European countries that he likes.

43:49 Paradoxically, there is a certain nostalgia in all this Trumpian movement. And this is very much based on social cohesion migration whiteness. Paradoxically, Denmark is one of the countries that he should love most. This was a country which basically was quite effective in protecting their borders. Secondly, this a country with a lot of social cohesion. This is a country that was a very important American allies. So, free food loading is not there. Basically, they soldiers have been dying in Afghanistan and they have been dying out of solidarity with the United States, not because there was a problem for Denmark itself.

44:26 Boy, were they. They stood next to America. Yeah. No question. But the problem is that in a certain way when Trump talks about the world, he sees only America.

44:38 And this is the problem with Europe. In a certain way, you go there and you basically see only the things that you know from the United States. So here are the Europeans and they're like the Democrats and they're like this and they're like that. So paradoxically he does not have a much interest in other places particularly when it comes to the allies and this is this strange uh kind of a combination of one level person with a strong imperial imagination and on the other side incredibly provincial. So even when he decides to remake the UN, what he's doing with the peace board, it's a golf club, you go with a billion

45:16 billion dollar entrance fee. I'm inviting this. Yeah, but it is a golf club. So in a institutionally

45:23 the golf club is the way you basically see the world being crowned, right? And that's how they do business

45:29 and he doesn't understand the economics, right? Yeah, like because if you were serious about Greenland's resources, anyone could have invested in Greenland that America has a great treaty 51, the wartime treaty renewed. There's no, you know, those resources are not somehow lying hidden behind a protective wall of, you know, Danish anti-American nationalism that prevents good American businesses from No, no, no. It's just a it's a it's a weird My personal favorite interpretation is it's the the map of the game risk. You know, you know, it's it's Venezuela and Greenland are very large.

46:07 Can I tell you what I think it is, Adam? And I think he said it. I think what he's saying is, "No, no, no, no, no. We don't want to rent it. We want to own it." You know how it is. If you rent a place, you can't even put pictures up and put holes in the wall. But if you own it, you get to do what whatever you want. The Andon, you you touched on this earlier. You said that what Trump does is he finds a way that the world has always worked and he is transparently explicit about it. But the thing that I think maybe we're missing a little bit is it's not the only way that the world has ever worked. It isn't only mob threats and trying to uh coers people. I don't think we're fully appreciating how difficult it is to have something sustainable and pro uh prosperous through coercion only.

47:01 And to Adam's point, we could have had all of it and we did have more bases there. We let them go. I don't Adam has is is Europe are they believing yet that this is a real because I saw your panel and I saw the faces on the Europe. It was disbelief.

47:22 Yeah. I think everybody keeps thinking, "Oh, no. They're going to pull out of this spiral

47:27 or or not." I mean, depending on what you saw earlier in the day, right? You saw the opposite logic. And the the common denominator is it's as though the Americans forced the Europeans to actually come up with a concerted investment strategy for Greenland, which they've never previously have. And the Europeans are actually going to do they're going to make the movie and he's made the trailer. I mean the well they're going to make the sequel to the film that he never made and so they're going to end up doing some sort of weird

47:59 actual European program. I mean Greenland like it's 56,000 people. It's a territory the size of both Alaska and California put together. It currently runs entirely on Danish public money. So 25% of its GDP, half its 50 to 60% of its public budget is coming from Copenhagen and Danish taxpayers. So you know if that's what America wants to take over, this is a substantial I mean not huge by American standards, but nevertheless this is a net negative in in its current form. And what the Europeans are going to do is their usual European thing. They'll do a regional policy and they'll find a few billions to transform this. And Ivan, you know, in Bulgaria knows the story only too well of of how mixed the results of those kind of programs can be. They can be very real. U but it depends critically on the politics in the in the place where the money is applied.

48:56 So uh I I'm I'm kind of a I'm kind of a chef type uh chef type dude. Kind of a you know, a lot of times people watch me at home and they'll be like, "Are you on the bear?" And I'll be like, "Well, I could see how you made that mistake." I like to I like to throw down for a little bit of the munch. But uh you know for me the one problem I have is you know the the olive oil. How much you use is is the proper olive oil. I used to have uh an olive oil fountain in the house like a chocolate fountain but it was it's sloppy a lot of slippage. Uh but Graza extra virgin olive oil always fresh. They pick press bottle all their olives in the same season. And you know me, I used to bottle them. It must have been 10, 20 years. Same olives. You pick between their two blends. You got sizzle, you got drizzle. Available in glass bottles or cool squeeze bottles for everyday uh uh cooking. That'd be your sizzle. You're roasting. You're

49:52 sautéing. You drizzle. That's you dip a bread. You drizzle over ice cream. That's right. People do that. They also put salt on it. Look, I'm very sophisticated. The bottles and refill cans are 100% opaque to block UV rays that degrade the oil and it keeps it fresh. So head to graza.co and use twws to get 10% off and get to cooking your next chef quality meal. Trump views though the EU as being having been created to hurt the United States. I mean he he already views it in a kind of very aggressive I don't think he views it as allied with the United States in that way.

50:34 No but also in a certain way he view as hostile everything that he does not understand.

50:42 No but that's true like dogs and to be honest I have a sympathy with him. European Union is not easy to understand and in a certain way in the European Union what is totally absent is the possibility to have a politics based on a personal relationship because having a personal relationship with who and as a result of it for him everything that's coming is just bureaucracy constraints everything that he hates about America he sees there but also what is interesting in the case of Greenland is that Denmark is basically was telling him before we're going to give you what he wants and His message is no no I don't want you to give to me I want to take it from you.

51:22 Yeah right. Uh and this is the story where Europeans understand that it cannot work like this because paradoxically uh here is the society response also. Uh what he does not understand is the pride of others. Danish people are proud people. By the way, if he was playing different way, there was a very good article in foreign affairs by uh a former American diplomat how he can take Greenland, but he can do it in four or five years with investments and doing this and that. And basically talking to the Greenland population and Greenland, but for him it doesn't matter. For him, it should come fast. It should come for July 4th. It should be used for the midterm elections. So in a certain way this is the symbolism of this and this is where I'm afraid he's playing symbolic games. Europeans does not know how to play symbolic games because this is not where we are from but he's totally underestimating

52:22 the capacity of Europe not to cooperate. Has he made Adam this politically uh impossible then for Europe to acquies to some kind of deal going along with what Ivon is saying that so let's say there is a deal to be made is it now too politically damaging to people who are already weak I mean the the leaders of that sort of western European uh flow are much weaker you know than some of their right-leaning counter.

52:56 I mean, I just I' I'd love to think that. I just really need to check my biases on this. Like, one shouldn't one shouldn't underestimate the capacity of the Europeans to fail.

53:08 Um, and they we have we have a talent for this. I should agree very much. We agre like it's spectacular.

53:16 So, you think this actually is going to work that Trump is going to get it? Think Democrats. We know it. Like, think Schumer. Think Democratic leadership. every bit as bad as that.

53:25 Oh, dear lord. Plus more division. It's not a done deal. But I I love the basic logic. One of the things that's really shocked me is as a kind of, you know, action reaction kind of logic is the promotion of underlay. In the first term, Ian's totally right. They had no idea who she was. Like they just couldn't process the fact that Europe has this complex polity. This time around, Lutnik on stage literally said, "You know this way, the way this goes, we bully. You agree to be bullied." Then he literally said, "Oo London and Donald Trump get together and do a deal." And it was like, "Well, you what has happened here? This is such strange."

54:06 And the Biden people of course prepared this because they really deliberately promoted Brussels and the commission and Vonda into the telephone number that you call in Europe. There's no question now. You call the ECB and you call Brussels. This is where you call, right? There's no there's no ambiguity about it really. The Germans and the French you need to talk to too. But increasingly the trend has gone towards that centralization.

54:28 Ultimately then what is the point of any of this? And does Donald Trump believe actually we will have a better world for America without the EU and without NATO? Because if this goes through, I don't understand how the EU is still any way considered a credible organization protecting the sovereignty of its member states if you do this. What is the point

54:58 of being there? But but this is a very interesting question because I do believe that there are people around him who still believe that the very important is to try to get Russia to decouple from China to make a deal and their thinking is if there is no European Union and that if there is no NATO why Russia should not be America's best friend and all these people negotiate and they see this and that and don't forget most of these people they don't come from diplomacy and they don't come from security

55:27 uh they come from trade and This why for them is very difficult to understand somebody like Putin who is totally kind of immersed in history and pride and story and economic argument is the most not the most important uh and I don't believe this is the real issue the people around him I don't believe that is I don't know is Trump himself in this they believe that European Union is bad because it is big that if you have 27 small countries you're going to do much easier with them that for America it's going to be easier to do it by the way not understanding that if this is going to happen, America should try to manage a space which is going to be so both economically security and politically tensious uh that it's really going to be an issue for particularly for this administration that does not want American money to be spent outside Europe is going to be a nightmare. Uh I do believe that somebody should try to

56:21 show President Trump films about the disintegration of the Soviet Union uh and so on. disintegrations is not a funny game. Uh uh uh it's not a funny game. uh but uh but of course there is also this other wing of the Republican party and I do believe this is why people like Macron and Vanderion and of course merits they understand that when it comes to Greenland they are not facing America they are not even facing the Republican party they're facing Trump and small group around him they do believe that even in this administration there are people for whom NATO is a value and losing NATO is against American national interest. So this is why they're going to be in my view much more assertive uh than in other situations.

57:06 Ivonne, if you're impressed by how Europe can capitulate to Trump, let me introduce you to the Republican party. Yeah.

57:13 Because if if you ever want to see somebody sublimate to their dear leader and isn't it though in talking about that, Adam, I'm curious what you think about this. If the idea like so let's say there is an endgame here that they view it as if I can get Russia to decouple from China that's better for me than if the EU is strong and productive. I mean if the United States has to defend Greenland alone somehow that's better than defending it with 32 other countries. But okay that's fine. Mhm.

57:46 How naive is it to think that Russia would ever decouple from China in an honest and real way and somehow align itself as a great friend of the United States? And why would we want that anyway?

58:03 No, I mean I think there is a real I mean I love Ivan's like mapping of this is is delirious. It is fascinating. But I mean don't we have to talk about the Norway letter? I mean, and the silence about the Norway letter.

58:17 When he says the Norway letter, he's referring to Trump wrote uh uh Norway and said, "I don't even care about your Nobel Peace Prize, but since you didn't give it to me, I'm now don't have to be a man of peace."

58:28 Well, and actually goes further. He says, "Now I don't have to care about universal peace. Now I can care just about America." He actually, this goes to this weird relationship. He literally says, "Now I can be America first, right? because previously I was doing the peace thing and because you and and I mean it's so ludicrous and and the overwhelming what we've seen here at Davos is that people just are tight lipped are shut down about the evident fact that this man to whom they swear a kind of personal loyalty and feelalty is is childlike is is truly it's childlike and and basically crazy and the I I I I agree with you. There may be strategic groups that want to use this for the purpose of the kind of grand rearrangement that you're talking about, but but I I think we have to we have to we have to allow for the fact that there is just this emptiness and madness at the heart of the whole thing.

59:28 Oh, dear Lord. That is genuinely infantile. So, it's literally Greenland is just another [ __ ] ballroom.

59:35 It's a toy. It's just another ballroom. It's another It's big big big ballroom like that. He gets to decorate.

59:43 But do you know what is interesting? You know this that part of kind of the pressure coming from this politics is that you cannot distinguish between important and unimportant.

59:52 No, you can't. It's all and this is very typical by the way that for the monarchical politics because important is what matters for the guy.

59:59 Yeah. Uh and from this point of view being strategic particularly if you're working with the guy is the biggest mistake that you can do. be sure that you know what he cares about. Uh when he said that basically he wants to buy uh Greand, I was trying to say this is also a risky strategy because probably the sovereign fund of Norway can come with a higher price and don't we have a little debt. Hey, listen. There's no reason to get personal, Ivon. We have a little debt. I'm telling you, next month is going to be a big month and we are on our way back.

1:00:33 Oh, yeah. I you that could not have been clear about this. best credit in the world. best

1:00:38 on the substance though of your of your question your John about like Russ Russia and China I mean this would be you know for Putin currently the greatest disaster in recent history is the collapse of the Soviet Union right he's spoken about this very eloquently and I think actually Xi Jinping agrees this is one thing that Putin and Xi Jinping agree on is that the collapse of the Soviet Union between ' 89 and 91 I thought is the is the this is the center of all of their thinking and for the Chinese of course ' 89 means not just South Africa and the Berlin wall but gentleman square and but would a disintegration of Europe lead Russia away from China? It would certainly make Russia less dependent on China and it would open up an incredibly wide field of influence in Europe. Um but I don't think there's any reason to think it would like squarely why would they they've just won. Why would they give

1:01:31 something up? It's and if energy is the hard core of the Russian regime, right,

1:01:37 both oil which is globally fungeable and gas which has to be piped on in the main for efficiency. China's China's the decisive variable in your demand equation, right? India is never going to be a China. China is the be all and end all. They've been desperately trying to get a big pipeline deal with the Chinese done. They've somehow maybe maybe got there. They are not going to back away from that. So I think the idea that you break Europe so it's the win I mean it it has a it has a amazing logic but um I don't think it would work just like my modest suggestion is I think it probably might not work out like that

1:02:14 and also Adam is making a point which is very important because between Putin and she both of them are obsessed with a long history you remember famous she's saying we see a change which is are you really going to bet on Trump if you want to build the relations with the Unitedates states and this is the interesting story with the Russians from our point of view they're over excited about Trump but on the other side the Russians are very much afraid that they can make a deal that is not going to survive for a long time uh and this is why on one level he cannot make a deal but on the other others don't believe that they can make a deal with him because they still don't know what is a postTrump America we know that postTrump America is not pre-Trump America I don't believe that anybody has doubts on this but how exactly is going to look like what kind of a joe strategic vision it's going to have what kind of political

1:03:05 values it's going to share. So from this point of view paradoxically what we seeing everywhere is kind of a identity politics but on a global level everybody is asking themselves who we are and this is for America this is for Russia. We're, listen, we're asking ourselves, look, we're living in a world where they're telling us we have to attack Greenland if we have to to protect it from it falling into the hands of the Russians. Okay. What about Ukraine? Yeah. No, that no, we're going to give that.

1:03:36 Plus, why is it strategic territory? Because of climate change, which isn't happening,

1:03:41 right? I mean, we the cognitive dissonance Yeah. that it takes to be one of his ardent supporters. And then they all just look at you like, "Hey, this is the guy who wrote The Art of the Deal." And you're like, "No, he didn't. Some other [ __ ] guy wrote it and he put his name on it." Like basically what he does with all of his projects. and and all he's done, as far as I can see, is turned us into a a less free, less democratic, more kleptocratic uh disunion on on any of these things. And I begin to wonder, and this is really it gets down to the crucial question, is there a free world? And who's going to lead it?

1:04:31 Take your time. I mean, am I wrong there, Adam? Is that too cynical? Hey, hey, John, we're making this show. You can if you if you want to if you want to answer that question, try making this show in mainland China.

1:04:47 Uh, okay. Try making a show like this in Russia. Yeah. um at the limit clearly there are there are huge there are huge differences in the world and they're still extremely meaningful and absolutely worth fighting for and we still at this very moment are the beneficiaries and the game is not done and midterms are coming up and these people are wrong about so many of their hypothesis

1:05:08 but Adam being able to make this show but we're also okay with them taking over a sovereign country that doesn't want to be taken over like

1:05:17 oh no no no I mean like can you know what I'm saying is there Is there a is there a pure clearly defined do we still know what freedom is

1:05:27 all of that like I agree is kind of out the window but I mean really would be it would be it would be we would be self it would be self-indulgent to deny the the the huge differences which are still very real but it's conceivable a time might come where those differences get erased but we are not there and there's everything to play for and presumably all of us engaged in this conversation think that's why we need to talk we need to publicly. We need to raise voyage.

1:05:52 That's exactly right. We need to make people laugh. We need to make people think. We need to engage with these questions because this is so not done. Uh and in my view, this is also where the part of the big problem with the current administration is because we talk as if in the world there is a major kind of a rise of authoritarianism and so on. I don't see it like this. I do believe that the real problem is that the border between democracy and authoritarianism is the least protected border in the world.

1:06:19 Bars. Hold on, Ivon. You can't just drop that. You can't just drop that in the middle of a podcast and expect me not to stand up and applaud. Say that again.

1:06:28 No. No. I'm not going to say it again because probably this time it's not going to be so spectacular. You know, the repetition is always a problem.

1:06:36 The border between totalitarianism and democracy is the least defended border in the world. I love that

1:06:42 because one of the interesting story about the cold war was that because of the nature of the cold war the America has to basically redefine itself as the free world very hypocritically here and there but without the Soviet Union of course American just was not going to be as important for America because just was important because it was not it was forbidden in the Soviet Union and secondly because basically the Soviets believed that future belongs to them America should become also very much future future oriented and I'm saying this because I also believe one of the reasons the cold war never became hot was that both sides believed that future was on their side. This is why they believe that better to fight tomorrow when they're going to be stronger. What makes me really nervous about the world in which we are living is that you have basically people who fear the future.

1:07:34 They fear for demographic reasons, for technological reasons all the time somebody's going to replace us. And when you fear the future, you believe that if there are going to be a fight, better fight today because tomorrow we're going to be weaker. And this explains this kind of a strange combination of on one level this kind of a trailers about American power which was real. Listen, what happened in Venezuela was the operation that took the Russians four years and they cannot finish it. Uh Americans did it for four hours. But on the other side are kind of there is no future perspective and this is why people are becoming so anxious and this is why you cannot project your life and I do believe this deficit of future is a huge problem for democracy because future and certain type of future is one of the invisible institutions for democracy. If you don't believe in future, democracy cannot function

1:08:28 because democracy is also the art of postponing of timing certain things uh uh in

1:08:33 and of persuasion because persuasion is is the coin of the realm when it comes to that. Adam Toss you are in Davos. You are perhaps no one's standing closer to the border

1:08:45 between democracy and totalitarianism than than you right now. is the fear here while you're there because all the leaders of that so-called democratic world are probably walking around right now in Davos. Is there is there a a will to defend that border as forcefully as as perhaps it needs to be defended?

1:09:08 I mean, we went we went back and forth on this um a minute ago. It's worth saying there's one really depressing thing going on, which is that people are leaving before Trump gets here. Which is another way of responding to this border, which is to say, "No, I don't have to sit on the edge of this. I don't want to be part of the spectacle. I don't want to be I don't want to be dragged into this,

1:09:31 right? I'm just going to I don't have to be here." And that is a kind of withdrawal, but it's very ambiguous, right? Because it doesn't necessarily dispose the Europeans are going to meet on Thursday. there's everything to play for. But one of the things that's happening is that kind of stepping away. Um and uh people are making choices literally today cuz we know what kind of security is going to happen and it's going to be mad and like there's one faction which is leaving and there's another faction is basically get locked into the conference center tomorrow and live with all of the insane American security because you know the the physical other leaders come and go in Davos and yeah there's a bad bubble around them. Ian will know this well but like they don't change the whole thing.

1:10:15 The Americans tomorrow are going to put their bootprint on the entire the entire show and you can either choose to not be there for it or I'm not this is no kind of heroics like it's just literally who's going to be part of the Trump sleepover and who not and some of us are going to stay for the authoritarian sleepover show that is going to come descend on this place tomorrow.

1:10:38 Adam, do you think the buffet is going to get better with the Americans in town or do you think it's still going to be wanted? But no, the Chinese I think are doing the buffet tomorrow evening. And there that is the buffet, I'm afraid. As you would imagine, that is the buffet that you want to be at. Gentlemen, I can't think of a better note to end on than the fact that the Chinese right now in the world as it stands provide the best buffet. And I think America is going to need

1:11:06 I only hope that Europeans were not going to do the dishes again. That's the problem. Trump sees no peers at Davos. He sees only Putin and Xi as his peers. They are the only ones. Everyone else is working in the kitchen. Gentlemen, thank you so much. What an interesting conversation. It It's going to be really wild to see how this is going to turn over the next week. Adam Tu's author of Chartbook Substack. Ivon Krav, chairman, Center for Liberal Strategies. I really appreciate you guys joining us and giving us those insights. Thank you.

1:11:44 Thank you. Folks, you may have heard other times during this podcast, other other certain brands and such. I talk about how much I like to cook, how much I I I love to create uh fabulous meals and entertain. I'm going to be honest with you, it's not always the truth. The truth is I don't I don't have time to cook. I used to do it, but it was like a short order thing. Like if you wanted eggs over easy, I could do that. Other than that, pretty useless. That's why Factor is the deal. Factor makes life easy. Factor, they'll send you fully prepared meals, designed by dietitians, crafted by chefs. You know, you eat well without the shopping, without the cooking. It perfect for me because I I I like to sit. I'm a big sit man. And if you're trying to eat healthier, more protein, spice up the boring food factor is designed to fit those goals. 100 rotating weekly meals. Now, and I've spoken about this before. Generally, I

1:12:48 only eat around 75 weekly rotating meals. They've got more than that, even 100. Meals are always fresh, never frozen. You're ready to eat them in 2 minutes. Head to factormeals.com/tws50 off and use code TWWS50 off to get 50% off your first Factor box plus free breakfast for a year. Offer only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying autorenewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with Factor. man, those guys, you know, it it really was there. Interesting. Ivonne was was suggesting that, oh no, there may be a method to this madness. And I think Adam probably along more like what I was thinking. He's like, strategically, we can pull Russia. And I think Adam would be like, nah, I think he just might be [ __ ] that guy. I think he's just that guy.

1:13:45 I think he's just I think he just wants this [ __ ] and he wants to put his name on it.

1:13:49 And it's never good when the method is white supremacy, right? Well, I I like though he's like there are some fears that people have

1:13:58 about obviously birth rates and and demographics. Yeah. What could have given you that impression?

1:14:03 Did either of you watch the panel that that Adam hosted at Davos? Yes. Yeah. I wasn't able to watch the whole thing, but man, he's got to have ice running through his veins. Like, it was

1:14:14 he's just like with Lutnik like, "What are you doing? What's Greenland about? What's wrong with you people?" And just the silence after Letic's answer of just everybody up there like

1:14:24 Adam's like I think we need to talk about Greenland. Letic what are you what do you mean Green Greenland? Why? Why would you even bring that up?

1:14:32 Yeah. How random. Seems irrelevant. I love though that during the panel like you watch the various people on the panel like almost like they were watching a TV show too where it's like the highs and lows and the suspense and they're all like locked in and then they and then you know

1:14:48 Yeah. All that was missing was the popcorn. Truly. Yes. It's so rare when you see a panel that's actually going to break news. You're like, "Oh shit."

1:14:55 Well, it's gonna I mean when Trump shows up and by the way, for those of you who haven't seen the Macron, uh it's bananas. He's got on like aviators and he looks like a social chairman at like a fraternity and he's just up there like, "All right, man. We're just going to Here's the thing. I'm going to take on [ __ ] Theta Kai. They're going down. [ __ ] those guys."

1:15:23 Senioritist at its finest. Come on. Kappa rules. Kappa forever, baby. Yeah. Like it it was I I couldn't figure out like what kind of [ __ ] they give somebody to battle jet lag and then I'm like, "Oh, wait. He doesn't have jet lag. He came in from France

1:15:37 like an hour." Yeah. Yeah. Apparently, he's just high. I mean, it's hard not to think something's going on behind. You know, most people don't wear the glasses inside unless you're like [ __ ] yay or something like that. Like that. It's, you know, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

1:15:54 I mean, who could blame him for doing some drugs right now, you know? Oh, you're not kidding. Well, the real news is going to be obviously Wednesday when when Trump shows up there and the circus is in town and you know, and right now everybody is still on the American side going, you know, Trump, this is what he does. You know, he, you know, he goes out there with a big ask. You're like, right, but his big ask is or the the thing that he's saying is, uh, I'm going to take over an allied country militarily. Like that's different than staking out uh a broadly winning position. Like that's the antithesis of everything.

1:16:31 You know him, he just he just loves to weave a yarn. Yeah. He's like he's going to start he's going to throw the invasion out there. But you know, he'll settle for 10% raw earth materials.

1:16:43 Yeah. I saw Tillis, who'd actually been critical of him was saying, I think earlier today, he was like, "To be clear, I'm not criticizing the president. I'm I'm criticizing the people that are giving him this advice. Yeah, [ __ ] Tis. [ __ ] all those guys. We don't even have a Congress. Congress is now a vestigial tale. It is a neutered cat sitting on a window sill watching the world go by. They are useless. And I know that as soon as a Democrat gets uh in office again, they will rear their uh powerful heads again. But right now, they are embarrassing themselves on a world stage. Truly

1:17:21 preach. [ __ ] them. [ __ ] Did you see the Danish MP? Danish MP goes, I will say this in a language Donald Trump understands. Um, [ __ ] off. And I was like, dude, he nailed it. He pronounced that complete. And then he said it again in Danish. So now I know how to say [ __ ] off in Danish.

1:17:42 Well, everyone loves to learn curse words in foreign languages. You know, it's the first thing we all learn when we take Spanish. So, who shows that to Trump? like uh you might want to see this.

1:17:53 Imagine doing that to the Danes. And by the way, the Danes every time I used to host this thing called the Warrior Games. It was always like it's like uh uh Invictus, but obviously for you know more like US. It was always the US. So like Marines, Navy, Air Force, Special Forces, Army, uh and then like Canada had a contingent there. Australia had a contingent there. And then the only other contingent that was consistently there, wounded warriors hurt in Iraq and Afghanistan Denmark. It was the one country that was there every time I hosted. And I hosted it maybe seven times. Every single time.

1:18:27 Danish men and women who had suffered grievous battlefield injuries defending the interest of the United States of America. And now we're like, "Yeah, [ __ ] those guys. We're going to take green.

1:18:36 We want it." Yeah. Because they joined us when we invoked Article 5. And now we're gonna go Article Five against them. You know, it's

1:18:44 You love to see it. Yeah. All right. What do we got, Brady? Anybody Anybody want to know anything?

1:18:50 Yes. First up, John, be honest with us. We're [ __ ] right? There's really nothing we can do to stop the damage Trump is doing.

1:18:59 Nope. Disagree. Disagree. Disagree. Hard hard pass on that. No, this you you what? No, I'm not saying he's not going to do grievous damage, but isn't that what you do after uh a devastating storm? You rebuild. you you put in the work and and you make some changes to the grid and you say like you know what maybe we shouldn't bury all the electrical wires underground near the salt water now we're going to put them somewhere else where they can be protect you know we'll make changes we'll do things that will now that is not to say that that's happening a week from now and it could be catastrophically like but we forget through the arc of history where it's like you know after the civil war they had what reconstruction now didn't last as long as it could have because uh they decided to uh appease the South and uh so reconstruction went the way uh and and Jim Crow soon settled in. So even the rebuild doesn't necessarily always

1:20:00 go the way you want it to go. But but [ __ ] man. No, we can't. No, that attitude. No hard pass. No. 100% disagree. Like the guy says on uh the the subway, who I love, that guy's I love that guy. Uh Kareem.

1:20:15 Shout out to Kareem. A uh no, [ __ ] that. Uh anything that he does can be redone and done better.

1:20:23 So the lessons here is patience. This too shall pass. I don't know about No, not patience, but but like it's going to take Yeah. And the harder we work now, the faster this will be over. That's

1:20:37 okay. Now I Now I just got tired. From your list to God years, man. Yeah. No, I hear you. It's a [ __ ] it's a it's a tough time. What What else we got? What else we got?

1:20:48 Um John, do you think Sean Hannity and Jesse Waters defend Trump out of genuine belief or is it more about per personal financial gain?

1:20:58 I think sometimes one blends into the other. I think when you wear a mask long enough, you start to believe you're that character and and you do start seeing everything through that filter. It's it's it's one of the the interesting things about like like actors that are method like you play a role long enough and it's kind of hard like am I Frasier or am I Kelsey Gre like

1:21:23 like how Austin Butler just kept that accent for like two years after Elvis Jillian that's perfect that's that's the perfect that's the perfect analogy you know so Hannie's like kind of a normal radio host like I'm on the right combs is on the left and now he's just like, "Look at me. I'm 60 and I take martial arts and defend whatever Trump says." Like, you know, it all it all falls apart.

1:21:51 What else? Last one. Last one. Last one. John, I aspire to be a comedian, but I'm really anxious and overthink. How do I become confident?

1:22:00 Oh, that's never going to work for comedy. Never the two shall meet. We're we're we're unerotic. Come, come into comedy and learn a healthier way of living.

1:22:13 Wait, this person is Say it again. They're neurotic, anxious, and overthink. And they want to know how they become confident.

1:22:22 You don't you use that's your superpower. You're anxious and you overthink. I can't think of a better starting block for becoming a comedian. That's like somebody saying like, you know, I'm 6'1 uh and have an unbelievable vertical leap. I'm thinking of becoming a basketball player, but what can I do to to change to enable that? Like, you're anxious and you overthink. All you need to do is just start writing some of that [ __ ] down. Translate it. No, I look forward to watching your specials. That's what I say.

1:23:06 A that's very sweet. That's very sweet. How do these people get a hold of us on these socials? What do they How do they What do they do?

1:23:13 Twitter, we are Weekly Show Pod, Instagram threads, Tik Tok, Blue Sky, we are Weekly Show podcast. You can like, subscribe again, you can subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with John Stewart. And a special shout out to Instagram's newest user, the official Instagram of John Stewart, John Stewart.

1:23:34 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I joined Instagram. It's It's been lovely. I I think third day in I just took a I just took a picture of my dog's poop and put it on there.

1:23:45 Jump scare. I'll be honest. Just No, I I I just want to give people a sense of what's coming. I I can't even tell you how much preferable it is to Twitter. Like every time I went on Twitter, I was just like I It's like you you had walked into a room of sociopaths

1:24:03 of literal Nazis and like they were all waiting for you. Yes. And and and this has been like there's pictures. It's pleasant. You get like funny reels like

1:24:14 Yeah. So far, nobody's like been vicious or any of those. Like, what? I was like, what is happening?

1:24:24 You're having fun with it. This is This is actually pleasant. Good. So, I' I've enjoyed it so far.

1:24:31 You're crushing it. I don't know if you saw, but you all of your famous followers are falling online. We've got You got Timberlake coming in. You have uh Mom Donnie followed you.

1:24:41 Yeah, Justin Timberlake. She's looking at your dog [ __ ] right now. You know what? No, don't. You know what? I don't want to know because I don't want to get self-conscious.

1:24:52 Like, now I'm going to now like before I post dog [ __ ] I'll be like, but the mayor of New York

1:24:58 would be watching that. Believe me, the mayor of New York sees a lot of dog [ __ ]

1:25:03 You know what? But that it might be a thing where I'm like, this is his day off. Do I need Do I need on his day off to show him what he's walking to work in every day? Uh, fantastic. Well, uh, as always, guys, uh, thank you so much. Great job. Uh, our team couldn't do it without him. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Britney Mavic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vulla, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, executive producers Chris McShane, Katie Gray. We will see you guys uh, next week from Greenland.

1:25:35 The Weekly Show with John Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bust Boy Productions.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Trump’s New World Disorder with Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"?

Jon Stewart (Host), Adam Tooze (Guest), Ivan Krastev (Guest).

What is "Trump’s New World Disorder with Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart" about?

The discussion centers on Donald Trump's perception of the European Union as a hostile entity that undermines the United States, reflecting a broader skepticism towards foreign alliances and liberal democratic values. Experts Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev analyze the implications of this view for transatlantic relations and explore the potential dismantling of established alliances in favor of a…

What is mentioned in this The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including United States of America, European Union, John Stewart, Adam Tus, Ivon Kradev, China. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Trump’s New World Disorder with Adam Tooze and Ivan Krastev | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart"?

The episode runs 1 h 26 min; the transcript is about 15,190 words in 217 timestamped sections.

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