Transcript

Break-Up | This American Life | Episode 339

From This American Life · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 58 min · 9,820 words · 55 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Break-Up | This American Life | Episode 339", an episode of This American Life published March 6, 2025 (58 min, about 9,820 words). It mentions 18 people, works and ideas, including This American Life, American Life, Starley K, Against All Odds, Betsy Allison Walter.

What this episode is about

The main topic revolves around the emotional complexities and universal experiences of breakups, as illustrated through Lauren’s reflections on her own recent split. Key points include the rawness of her feelings, the repetitive patterns we all face in love, and how personal heartbreak can feel uniquely isolating despite being a common experience.

Key takeaways

  • Breakups: universal heartbreaks that feel uniquely personal—everyone's done it, yet each wound feels one-of-a-kind.
  • The paradox of missing someone while desperately hoping they'll never call again—love’s cruelest cognitive dissonance.
  • Every breakup scene is a psychological crime scene, where the 'before' and 'after' collide in bewildering fashion.
  • The quest for closure often features elaborate math—calculating precisely when you'll be 'over' your ex, good luck with that!
  • Try turning your breakup into a song, even without talent—it's the ultimate cathartic karaoke therapy, one cringe at a time.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: American Life, This American Life
  2. – 10:00: American Life, This American Life, Starley K, Against All Odds
  3. – 15:00: Against All Odds
  4. – 20:00: Genesis, Against All Odds, Buster
  5. – 25:00: Joe McGinty, Julia Greenberg, Ryan Adams
  6. – 35:00: All Things Considered, American Life, This American Life, Betsy Allison Walter
  7. – 40:00: Betsy Allison Walter, The Boys and Girls Book of Divorce
  8. – 45:00: Betsy Allison Walter
  9. – 55:00: Gwen De Marco, Stuart Webb
  10. – 58:13: This American Life, American Life, Gwen De Marco, Joe McGinty

Notable quotes from "Break-Up | This American Life | Episode 339"

  • From WB easy Chicago it's this American life it's so embarrassing I don't want to get upset but like he has a car so the last time I saw him on purpose was just in the car in.
    about This American Life · at
  • Us this American life Today's Show is a rerun Act One Dr Phil when one of our regular contributors Starley K was in the middle of getting over a breakup she tried to feel better in a way that few people ever try and that maybe even she.
    about Starley K · at
  • Another while smiling a lot I don't quite remember how our Phil Collins phase began I think it was one of those things that started off ironically with Anthony lipsyncing…
    about Against All Odds · at
  • Until this conversation I never thought I had much in common with Phil Collins he started playing in Genesis at the age of 19 I didn't he performed in live a while I watched it…
    about Genesis · at
  • Song the next problem was and it felt like a small problem really with my complete lack of musical ability so I asked a guy named Joe McGinty for some help he's a New York musician who has played with everyone from the Ramones to Ryan.
    about Joe McGinty · at
  • Mind hi anybody else glad I got that I'm good so I met up with Joe and also Julia Greenberg a musician and songwriter who plays with Joe a lot I'd written about a dozen songs some of them more finished than others when I printed them out I.
    about Julia Greenberg · at
  • The time and he does the interview Betsy tell me your full name please Betsy Allison Walter Betsy Allison Walter and you're 8 years old almost nine and you live in Manhattan…
    about Betsy Allison Walter · at
  • Show today with this vignette of just how lost you feel when you lose somebody from Marl Marco recorded on stage at uncabaret in Los Angeles today our friend Paul came to the…
    about Gwen De Marco · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Starley K — Person · Main speaker / contributor (Act One) · 1 mention · first at
    Narrates Act One: processes her breakup by immersing in breakup music, then contacts Phil Collins and co-writes/records a breakup song.
  • Betsy Allison Walter — Person · Featured subject (Act Two) / child of divorce (archival interview) · 3 mentions · first at
    Central voice in Act Two: as an 8-year-old she seeks answers about her parents’ divorce (letters to Mayor Koch and a psychologist); later reflects as an adult.
  • Joe McGinty — Person · Collaborator / musician helping produce the breakup song · 2 mentions · first at
    New York musician recruited by Starlee to add musical structure and help turn lyrics into a recorded song; works alongside Julia Greenberg.
  • Julia Greenberg — Person · Collaborator / songwriter and performer · 2 mentions · first at
    Helps identify the strongest lyric hook, sketches melody, and performs on the breakup song; key in transforming Starlee’s draft into a singable pop structure.
  • Gwen De Marco — Person · Storyteller / featured performer (Act Four) · 2 mentions · first at
    Delivers the closing vignette about a friend’s marriage unraveling, using humor and a dog’s fixation on a deflated ball as a metaphor for attention and coping.
  • Edward Koch — Person · Referenced public figure (Act Two) · 2 mentions
    As NYC mayor, he receives and replies to Betsy’s letter about her parents’ divorce; his response illustrates the limits of generic reassurance.
    Edward Koch is the mayor of New York City.
  • Stuart Webb — Person · Referenced innovator (Act Three) · 1 mention · first at
    Credited as the inventor of collaborative divorce, the alternative legal process discussed in Act Three.
    Association of collaborative professionals which he helped found collaborative divorce by the way was invented by a Minneapolis lawyer named Stuart Webb act four divorce is rough we close our.
  • Ryan Adams — Person · Referenced musician (contextual credential) · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned only to establish Joe McGinty’s breadth of collaborations (“played with… Ryan Adams”), lending credibility to McGinty’s role helping Starley.
    Asked a guy named Joe McGinty for some help he's a New York musician who has played with everyone from the Ramones to Ryan Adams to Ronnie Spectre he was in the Psychedelic Furs he has a million songs more importantly for my purposes at.
  • George Herbert Walker Bush — Person · Referenced public figure (news context in Act Two intro) · 1 mention · first at
    Appears in an archival NPR-style intro about welfare reform, used as time-setting/context for the 1987 tape; not central to breakup narratives.
    Hour this is no Adams and I'm Renee Montaine with all things considered the welfare reform that they're talking about here is that of president George Herbert Walker Bush the…

Books & papers

  • The Boys and Girls Book of Divorce — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as a resource for children dealing with their parents' divorce.
    Of a sad thing but most people get through it all right too that's my advice for you thank you wrote another letter to somebody who had written a book called the boys and girls…

Companies & orgs

  • Genesis — Company · Referenced entity · 3 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in the context of Phil Collins' career and his reunion tour with Genesis.

Concepts & topics

  • Against All Odds — Concept · Key argument · 3 mentions · first at
    A song by Phil Collins that is central to the discussion about breakup songs and their emotional impact.
  • SAT — Concept · Referenced concept · 2 mentions
    Mentioned in passing as part of a hypothetical future scenario involving the ex-boyfriend.
    Just going to have to trust me on this one which doesn't mean I think he'll never hear the song I can see him keeping a copy of it in some box stuffed with mixed tapes and…

Media & podcasts

  • This American Life — Media · Host · 6 mentions · first at
    The podcast hosting the episode, providing the platform for the stories and discussions.
  • American Life — Media · Host · 5 mentions · first at
    The podcast hosting the episode, providing the platform for the stories about breakups.
    From WB easy Chicago it's this American life it's so embarrassing I don't want to get upset but like he has a car so the last time I saw him on purpose was just in the car in.
  • All Things Considered — Media · 3 mentions · first at
    Dvas and stone Nelson special thanks today to NPR Noah Adams interview from 1987 was originally broadcast on national public radios All Things Considered where I was a proud…
  • Buster — Media · Referenced entity · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as a movie Phil Collins was in, which the speaker never saw.
    He started playing in Genesis at the age of 19 I didn't he performed in live a while I watched it on TV he was in the movie Buster which I never actually saw but talking to him…
  • Hacks — Media · Referenced entity · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as an upcoming TV show featuring one of the contributors.
    You Marl Marco at uncap in Los Angeles Merl's most Rec book is a graphic novel we saw scenery she's also in the upcoming season of the TV show hacks thanks to Greg Miller of un…

Full transcript with timestamps

from WB easy Chicago it's this American life it's so embarrassing I don't want to get upset but like he has a car so the last time I saw him on purpose was just in the car in front of my house and I don't know it's just bad um bad like when you walk out of your house you think like their his car was yeah I still look for it it's crazy okay now we're about a block from your house like on that in front of that building right there this like churchy looking building was where we were parked we first had the conversation where we decided we were going to be exclusive which was a joke like I don't really date around and I don't think he does either but you know it's like kind of a big conversation but yeah we were parked in the middle of that block right where that white car is and so every time you walk down this street you'll think like oh yeah there's the spot I walk down this street I just don't like I haven't even

seen him for a month you know what I mean when I walked around Lauren's neighborhood with her it had been 2 months since her boyfriend broke up with her they gone up for about 10 months before that she was incredibly nice to let herself be taped in still a pretty raw state but even in the middle of that raw State she was acutely aware and said herself that everything she was going through was a cliche a cliche that she was forced to live through that's the crazy thing thing about it is it's breaking up with someone is literally the most common thing like everyone you know broke up with everyone they ever dated until maybe the person they're with right now if they're with someone right now but when it happens to you it feels so specific like it's you know and it's I don't want to say I can't get over it but like in like a flippant way like you kind of can't get over it like you're like what this is what's

happening it's so shocking if I had to say one thing about Lauren it's that she was full of feelings that completely contradicted each other which I guess just comes with this territory like she emphatically did not want him to call but also maybe a little bit wanted him to call she missed him and she didn't want to stop thinking about him but she also did all this elaborate math to calculate the day that she would finally be over him and not thinking about him and with somebody else we got to an area where she had been on walks with the ex-boyfriend there were benches on a sidewalk prominade I don't know we used to just it's not that we took a ton of walks but we took some walks and what happened down here you know I can't I can't say that anything of substance happened it's not like any one specific thing it's just I don't know it's just that there was an us I know there really was that's the thing that's so weird

it's like you know you just you put so much energy into something and then one day it's time to stop I don't know during a breakup you just stare at what happened there's a before and there's an after and you just can't believe it laen says she still doesn't even understand what went wrong between her and him and that's part of it too so much of the time but we got the idea for today's radio show from an email that a listener sent it says um here dear This American Life I'm suffering from a gut-wrenching breakup with my former boyfriend and I searched your site for shows about breakups and general heartbreak to commiserate but to my surprise I didn't find many stories specifically regarding the act of breaking up hope you consider it a show like that would really cheer me up and so with that in mind we devote our show today to breakups partly today we have an anatomy of the completely contradictory feelings

that are part of a breakup I think that's what makes it such a special and particularly cursed State and we have stories today about people trying in some very unusual very resourceful ways to make themselves feel better during a breakup keyw there would be trying our show today in four acts in Act One Starly K heads out on a breakup Mission unlike any we have ever heard of in act two an 8-year-old heads out into the world to get some answers I her parents break up in act three a man who has turned his back on the ways of his people his people in this case being divorce lawyers back four M Marco Notes One possibly overlooked way to menend a broken heart and it involves a soggy plastic disy thing you just have to trust me on that one stay with us this American life Today's Show is a rerun Act One Dr Phil when one of our regular contributors Starley K was in the middle of getting over a breakup she tried to

feel better in a way that few people ever try and that maybe even she shouldn't have here's stly before I explain why I decided to write and record a breakup song even though I have no musical ability and can't play an instrument of any kind I should probably explain a bit about the breakup itself it was only after Anthony broke up with me that all the warning signs I had missed came sharply into Focus like the time he told me he didn't like taking pictures of girlfriends because it was a downer to have those photos around once the relationship was over I'd had a crush on him since the day we met but he always had a girlfriend in Canada then she broke up with them and we got together a week after that he told me I was the one which in retrospect was probably the biggest warning sign of all it was hands down the corniest relationship I've ever been in and by corniest I mean greatest we'd pass

entire evenings just complimenting each other we took handholding to new heights and we listen hours and hours of Music teenager style playing one song after another while smiling a lot I don't quite remember how our Phil Collins phase began I think it was one of those things that started off ironically with Anthony lipsyncing adorably to Against All Odds one night but over time it became less and less ironic until one day we were actual fans how I just let you walk away just let you leave without a trace when I stand Here taking every breath with you ooh you're the only one who really knew me we liked how honest and sad it was how can I just let you walk away just let you leave without a trace you're the only one who really knew me at all we pictured Phil H at the piano writing it the tears running down his face around turn around and see me cry there's so much I need to say Anthony broke up with me New Year's

Eve I told you corny I didn't really see it coming and I definitely didn't want it to happen he said you're going going to be okay I just cried and cried I wanted to stop it to fix it I searched deep inside myself for the right words to say and out of my mouth popped this how can you just let me walk away I'm the only one who really knew you at all and I meant it in fact I go so far as to say that in that moment no one could have conveyed how I was feeling better than Phil Collins I still be standing here and you coming back to me is again start if I thought I'd been in a Phil call in the phase before it was nothing compared to what came next I was no longer listening to his songs for pleasure but for pain they were breakup songs and hearing them was the only thing that made me feel better and by better I mean worse there's something so satisfying about listening to sad songs they're like how you would actually be

spending your day if you were allowed to just break down and sob and grab hold of everyone you met they make you feel less alone with your crazy thoughts they don't judge you in fact they understand you a breakup song won't ever suggest you start online dating or that you're better off without him they tell you that you're worse without him which is exactly what you want to hear because it's how you feel I didn't want to be cheered up I didn't want to bounce back I didn't want to meet someone new I wanted to wallow Big Time deeply and with the least amount of perspective possible and the only way to do that was by turning off my phone and turning up the sad sad music like this song that I love by the band the magnetic fields I don't want to get over you I guess I could take a sleep and and sleep at well and I'll have to go through would I go through I guess I should take proac right and just smile

all night at somebody new somebody not too bright but sweet and kind who would try to get you off my mind I could leave this Agony behind which is just what I do if I wanted to but I don't want to get over you it's great because as the lyrics perfectly articulate this feeling you didn't even know you had then there's the Bonnie R song I Can't Make You Love Me Close My Eyes then I won't see the love you when you're the song was written by Mike Reed and Alan shamblin after they read this little article in the newspaper about a guy who' gotten drunk and shot up his girlfriend's car at his sentencing he was asked if he learned any lessons from what he'd done and he said yes you can't make a woman love you if she don't I can't make you love me if you don't you can make your heart feel something it won before the breakup I had no idea how much breakup music was out there for example every song ever written or at

least every third but once your heartbroken you notice it everywhere you find yourself in the supermarket listening to a song you've heard before but never really heard thinking to yourself it's just so true in my life there's been heartache and pain I don't know if I can face it again can't stop now I've traveled so far to change this lonely life I to know what it's not just that you overlook the cheesiness you embrace it you do want to know what love is there's nothing restrained or subtle about being crushed by the person you care most about in the world it's big and Gody and so it only makes sense that songs about it are too you can show

me it was after listening to all these songs for months that I knew what I had to do I had to write one myself I needed to take charge of my pain I needed to take wallowing to the next level it wasn't enough just to be lying on the floor in my pajamas listening to these songs at 3: in the afternoon I wanted to be the songs I wanted to be the pain I wanted to be inside the stereo speakers to be the sound waves coming into my own head I wanted to be the thing creating the feeling I was feeling and I knew just what kind of breakup song I would write a torch song torch songs are about the most pathetic desperate and lonely Part of Yourself the part you'd never admit to your friends the part of you that knows without a shadow of a doubt that you would take him back not only that he wouldn't have to beg or even apologize Dusty Springfield made a whole career of these songs I just can't make it alone I only want to be with you all

I see is you losing you or this one which might be the most pitiful sentiment ever uttered out loud you don't have to stay forever I will understand believe me believe me I can't help but love you but believe me it's just so pathetic and deep down it's how I felt too and it felt good to have someone just come out and say it there are some words you can never speak but somehow you can sing so I knew what kind of song I was going to write but I had no idea how to go about writing it I needed some advice and out of thousands of musicians who write about heartbreak there was only one I cared to talk to hi hi hi sty can you hear me okay yeah I can hear you great Phil Collins of course what is that weird I got it into my head that it'd be great to ask Phil Collins how to write a breakup song the same way you might think to yourself I'd really love to talk to Michael Jordan about free throws I never thought it would actually happen

then then Against All Odds it turned out I had a friend who was on the road with Phil Collins on his Genesis reunion tour shooting footage for the DVD extras he gave me his contact info and I sent him an email Dear Mr Collins I have a rather unusual request then I waited refreshing my inbox every 3 seconds when his email finally appeared he was friendly and Casual we set up a time to talk in my mind he was already so intimately involved in my breakup that it seemed crazy that he didn't actually know about it so I told him well I'm going to tell you I'm going to tell you the whole story of my breakup and stuff okay is that okay yeah yeah it's your 45 minutes okay um um well it also involves you because so so I was dating um I was dating my boyfriend Anthony and um he kind of broke up with me on New Year's Eve oh nice yeah whereas before it was Anthony and I talking about Phil now it was Phil and I

talking about Anthony actually pretty when you think about it and at one point I turned to him and I just it just flew out of my mouth um just I just looked at him and I was like I I can't believe you're just going to let me walk away yeah and before long Phil CMS and I were commiserating about heartbreak which he also went through recently I mean I've just been through a marriage breakup and you talk about New Year's Eve I mean my divorce was Final on my birthday oh really and I didn't want it at all um so that's something that you know you always remember these things you know like uh you'll always remember New Year's Eve and I'll always remember my birthday I know it makes you want to skip those days doesn't it yeah yeah up until this conversation I never thought I had much in common with Phil Collins he started playing in Genesis at the age of 19 I didn't he performed in live a while I watched it on TV he was in the

movie Buster which I never actually saw but talking to him was easy he told me that when he in Genesis he just played drums and sang he didn't write Against All Odds was one of the first songs he wrote himself when he was working on his first solo album that song particularly was written during my first divorce mhm my first wife and the kids had gone and I was just left there so it was written totally out of experience as opposed to this is a what if song you know I mean yeah yeah do you think you could have written that song if you hadn't gone through if your wife had left uh probably not I mean frankly the the the if if that personal stuff had not happened to me at that time I probably would never have made an album and if I was to have made an album eventually it would have been more of a jazz Rock thing because that was what I was actually that was my output apart from Genesis I was the back of Brand X

and and that's you know I was a player so you know no without that stuff I wouldn't have felt the things I felt that made me sit at a piano night after night day after day writing stuff you know did it help um well it helped in as much as you know it was kind of well when she ISS this it's all going to be okay you know really did that what you thought I did yeah foolish huh I mean I did

did you get over it um um there's various people in your life um that you never quite get over I mean that's that's kind of the cliche and then you know sometimes I mean with me for example because of children you are you are morally obligated and you need because if you want to be with the kids as much as possible you have to be in touch with this person that's really hurt you so it's not like you know you can just walk away and leave with Without a Trace because you know in this instance there's a couple of little guys that are looking up to you saying what am I going to do Dad okay there are so many crazy things about this first of all even Phil Collins can't help but quote Phil Collins second if it had him been for his wife leaving him in 1979 Phil Collins would never have become Phil Collins heartbreak turned a jazz Rock Fusion drummer into an international pop icon but the other crazy thing was how honest and normal he

was about it once again Phil Collins put into words what I was feeling there's a part of me and it is not a small part that wants my ex Anthony to hear the song I write and asked to come back I told Phil that I've been trying to write my songs but they just didn't feel right they were too wordy or something but when I tried to consult songs that I love to see how it was done even the lyrics of the best songs looked flat on the page I wanted to know how to transform cliche sentiment into a song that captured the entire range of human emotions I wanted to know how simple sentences Like Love Hurts love scars became love HTS love scars love most of the time it's it's it's the direct I mean if it if it's if it's a good song that's what makes it good it's the fact that it's you know so you know so many people try to fluff things up and and or or disguise them or um you know make them a little bit too clever

but sometimes it's the it's the simplest thing that that actually reaches people it it actually looks corny when you look at it on the page that's but but then you see that's what what becomes important then is the way that it's sung you know yeah because you get um you know otherwise you get and I don't mean any disrespect but you get into sort of Michael Bolton territory when it I got nothing I don't nothing I'm just using him as an example I'm sure people would use me as an example of something that you know like gets overblown and Polished right as opposed to a simple idea simply sung and obviously sounds like it's sung with conviction so now I had the advice I had the pain it was time to start writing it was pretty terrifying at first every single word I put down seemed wrong even the ones that seem like they had to go in the no-brainers I type the word love then erase it and then type it

again then one day I was waiting for the train and I started thinking about how that train reminded me of Anthony and then how our love was sort of like a runaway train oh that's good I thought and scribbled a line down in the back of my gas bill suddenly heartbreak was flowing out of the cracks in the sidewalk and it was up to me to transform it into song the next problem was and it felt like a small problem really with my complete lack of musical ability so I asked a guy named Joe McGinty for some help he's a New York musician who has played with everyone from the Ramones to Ryan Adams to Ronnie Spectre he was in the Psychedelic Furs he has a million songs more importantly for my purposes at least Joe is a man who understands heartbreak here's one of his songs I really like this song is 3 weeks old guess I should sing it happy birthday and your image it still holds a happy accident I can't seem to

shake you from my mind hi anybody else glad I got that I'm good so I met up with Joe and also Julia Greenberg a musician and songwriter who plays with Joe a lot I'd written about a dozen songs some of them more finished than others when I printed them out I had six freshly typed pages of lyrics and then about 15 crazy looking pages with a few lines here and there separated by random spaces I had sent these all off to Joe and Julia before a meeting here's Joe reading the one I thought with Father this along okay uh imaginary boyfriend I can't help but think this all could have been prevented if ID just gone to a small liberal arts school because then I would have met my imaginary boyfriend at a stand-up comedy open mic it was love at first eye roll he said he drew comic books like David on Rosanne wow most nights we stay I thought I'd been working on a song but I don't even know how to describe what

that was a creative writing class essay maybe it was clear that I'd ignored Phil Colin's advice keep it simple not clever Joe and Julia agreed I think the like David on Roseanne I can't turn into a song then Julia pulled out her favorite of my songs from the very bottom of the stack I've been so sure it wasn't a contender I almost not included it at all you had the lyric doesn't do it doesn't do me any good in fact it does me bad then it kind of seems impossible to me that that hasn't been in a pop song before but like That's a classic kind of pop song you know that's what you look for yeah that's a classic pop song line I have to admit I was skeptical that lyric was from the crazy pile just note for an idea I had for a torch song I tried to think of the most pathetic scenario I could but I came up with was this Anthony goes back to his ex-girlfriend but rather than letting him go I agree

to be this awkward third wheel as long as it means still getting to see him occasionally the lines were literally I liked you and you liked her and I sort of liked her because you liked her Julia had run with the idea with one minor change do you know that you had it all like and I changed it to love that was the biggest God that makes I I feel like there's something really deeply there like even more issues that I have to work work with out with myself that I put like in not love it didn't even occur to me like Julia had been so sure it was an actual song that she'd gotten to work before a meeting she' sketched out a melody and sung it to Joe on his answering machine they played it for me yeah all right and this is going to be a rough rendering of the op yeah

I loved you and you loved her and I sort of loved her cuz I love everything you led then she stops stops loving you and Glory Hallelujah somehow you start loving me and I don't know why I love you I just do I really do and it doesn't do me any good in fact it does me bad and you're oh so gone and I'm oh so sad so yes in theory I knew all this that music was important it transforms words unites the universe together but I'd never actually seen it happen in front of me come up with some more interest to I cannot believe that's the one that you choose but then um when you were singing it it was like the words were like falling coming flying off the page and there was like pixie dust on them or something like a magic spell had actually trapped it with a wand and it makes total sense now after hearing it that that should be the one so now the three of us had written a song about the other three of us over the next week we

finessed the lyrics tweaked the melody and recorded the song it seemed obious who should get the first listen and no I don't mean Anthony that'd be crazy I mean Phil Collins can I play my song for you is that okay is that I don't want to put you on the spot and make I would like to hear we've been talking about um okay cool and you just just be honest okay oh okay here it goes so I played in the song I'll skip the part you've already heard in the bridge and jump right to the end now it's just the three of us the names may have changed but the sorry facts remain the same that I love you and she loves you I'm okay with second best just love her more and love me less I don't know why I love you I just do I really do it's doesn't do me any good in fact it does me bad cuz you're all gone and I'm all sad you're all gone and I'm oh so sad well well there's some great stuff in there you know I really

like what's the what's the line again about doing me no good in fact it's doing me bad it doesn't do me any good in fact it does me bad yeah that's fantastic really and afterwards the the line that says and you're O So Gone I laughed when I heard that your o so gone and I'm oh so sad to me it's just really smart that's I can't believe it and it's so nice of you I can't this is like it's not being nice I just like it I mean I know I could I would easily have said hey it's it's not for me you know but I could just I heard it and I thought there was some very it's very funny it's very thank you well this is that's what I mean though about how like I told you I was trying to write all these like crazy Concepts and conceptual ideas and then the one that seemed to work was just the one that's how I feel yeah do you think do you think it he'll come back I hope so because you obviously do feel a lot for him so oh do you think

I'll ever stop feeling the way bad like I am now like well but you you kind of you know I don't you kind of like feeling bad don't you oh yeah well it's something you know so I don't think you really want to get over it I think you're kind of enjoying it so that's kind of a dilemma you have to sort out you really have me pegged it feels like important or big or something like it feels like I it felt really like I felt so much for him when I was with him and the only way to still feel like that strongly about something is to not it's not let it go I would love to be the person who just like he made he meant nothing to me but instead I'm the person who's like okay I'm going to write a breakup song and play it over the airwaves and uh you know like it's so I'm i' I've like lost all my cool well you know I don't see like that I you're just addressing something you need to address and this is getting

amongst other things getting it out of your system you know you've had the satisfaction of actually getting something tangible that you can play yeah um you know out of this relationship that's true but I don't you sometimes wonder it gives it better to have the song in the end or the relationship oh no it's probably about have the relationship you yeah yeah that's the problem but that you don't have the choice now that the song is done it's really hard not to to wonder if Anthony is going to hear it I'd like to say I've gone back and forth and whether I even want him to but the truth is of course I do everyone I talk to from my best friend all the way to Phil Collins says he'll listen and yes if the roles were reversed and it were me I definitely would but I know Anthony if anyone could resist listening it would be him you're just going to have to trust me on this one which doesn't mean I think he'll

never hear the song I can see him keeping a copy of it in some box stuffed with mixed tapes and copies of SAT scores so that he can listen to it one day when he's ready I picture him 40 years from now an old man living in some house that I'll never see which breaks my heart in my head he doesn't look like a real old man but like a young one wearing stage makeup I imagine him sitting down to finally listen on the CD player that people make fun of him for still having he loads it in and hits play he listens to the entire song from start to finish and when it's over he plays it again and again until the tears are running down his

face Starley kind you can hear more stories from sterley on her podcast mystery show coming up a big city mayor an 8-year-old girl and a dog weigh in with their solution to getting over your next breakup that's in a minute from Chicago public radio when our program continues This American Life I'm I glass each you on our show of course we choose a theme bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme Today's Show breakup stories from inside the vortex of shockingly contradictory feelings that happen after a breakup we've arrived at act two of our show act two but why after a relationship ends you can puzzle for years of why things went wrong and did they have to and you yearn for a simple story that explains it and that's not just true for the people in the relationship it's true for their kids and um now with that thought let's flip on the radio time machine reforming welfare in this half

hour this is no Adams and I'm Renee Montaine with all things considered the welfare reform that they're talking about here is that of president George Herbert Walker Bush the day that this aired February 11th 1987 I was one of the lower level producers at all things considered uh but that day I got to work on this story about breakups that I still think about a story about somebody who is wanting to understand a breakup and reaching out to various people out in the world to do that in a way like starle did so okay all you need to know is it's 1987 Edward cotch is the mayor of New York City Noah Adams is one of the hosts of all things considered at the time and he does the interview Betsy tell me your full name please Betsy Allison Walter Betsy Allison Walter and you're 8 years old almost nine and you live in Manhattan mhm and you're in our studio in New York I appreciate you taking some time to come in and telling

us this story you wrote a letter to the mayor of New York mayor cotch right tell me about that please well I wrote to him because my parents are getting divorced and I really don't know who to turn to I just told him that my parents divorced and my dad is with somebody else and I was just getting used to something and now this and it's really kind of hard on me and I like an opinion why did you write to deir coach cuz he's somebody who I thought he's very good to us I guess cuz he's a May and he knows a lot of things and I thought he would know about this too yeah did you get an answer back yes what' he say he um it's very short thank you for the letter I was saddened to learn of the difficult times you are experiencing now it is important for you to share your feelings and thoughts for someone during this time I wish there is was an easy solution to these problems but there is not please remember that you are loved

and that PE that people care about you all the best sincerely Edward catch that's nice was that reassuring to you in a way no no did you have any thought in in your mind that perhaps he could actually do something about it for example call your father and get your mom and dad back together no no you just wanted some advice but see I tried to sometimes like cuz I had a Dan suicidal one day and I invited them both but I wanted them to sit next to each other but they didn't yeah what other advice have you been able to come across to to find well the guidance counselor she said that it's a lot of kids have the same problem say there are 400 in school say and like 300 of them have the same problem sure sure you know uh most people you talk with will have had parents who were divorced oh yeah most people it's kind of a sad thing but most people get through it all right too that's my advice for you thank you you you wrote

another letter to somebody who who had written a book called the boys and girls book of divorce yes a psychologist mhm and what did that person tell you well he said that I should try another of his books to find out help oh he wanted you to go out and buy his book did you well we had the one he recommended and how did that go what did you think of that one well the problem is he puts things in a way that I can't really quite get it through me that I already know and I want some real advice that my questions really are not not just answers that people keep telling me over and over again can you give me an example beny why they get divorced what happened do you think that that parents sometimes don't think children are old enough to understand or can't handle it and so we'll hide some information yes not that they have to say everything but you think there ought to be a little bit more sharing of the information yeah

that's what my mom said yeah and and in terms of their own divorce do you understand it better now no no why what still don't you understand about that well why did they have to go off and do it and cuz see the most painful part is when I saw my dad packing up and and I really don't understand because like it's hard cuz they won't tell me what happened to them and I really want them back together and I don't understand why they can't yeah what do you think you've learned from this do you think if if somebody else in school for example told you that their parents were getting divorce how how how do you think you could advise them well I wrote a book and I and I think I would say the same information that I said you wrote a a very small book yeah yeah do you have it there mhm could you read some of it for me please all right let me get it it's called a book about divorce should I read the whole book it's short

sure it's not your fault when your parents get divorced why does it have to be you because Mommy and Daddy don't love each other anymore remember it's okay to be sad and cry tell someone about your feelings that's it that's nice listen Betsy thank you for talking with us I appreciate it and and I wish you the best I hope things go well for you thank you and maybe uh maybe this is the beginning of a writing experience for you and you and you can grow up to be a writer I don't want to but I want to write like like one book that would make it but not a whole series you know you just want to write a book and make a lot of money no not money just famous okay okay okay Betsy thank you good night okay good night so that's the tape from 20 years ago you're in the studio with us now tell us your name Betsy Allison Walter how old are you I just turned 29 and you're working I am I have been a elementary school teacher

for the past seven years how many times over the years do you think you've heard this taped interview probably 12 a dozen CU I didn't hear it for a while I think I heard it again when I was about 22 23 um every time I've had a boyfriend I've played it for him and each time it's got to be different how's it been changing for you yeah recently was the first change really I used to only hear it with my exact inner monologue from when I was there in the studio and when I heard certain things I can still remember the exact thoughts running through my head I remember it very clearly I remember thinking that you were just another grown-up you know offering your advice all these grown-ups kept telling me things but I felt like I knew what they were going to say they were going to say it'll be okay and people fall out of love but that wasn't what I wanted to hear like it it's just I remember the everything it was I I

don't know how and then recently I think it was probably when I graduated college when I heard it again I heard it as an adult and it was so heartbreaking I didn't think it was sad when it was me it was just what was going on and it it made me sad to hear pain in my voice confusion and now I hear it even differently as an educator I hear it as what would I say to her and and looking back at that moment did you really want the truth or did you want things to be well again and whole again and I don't believe that I wanted what the truth really was but I wanted what I had created the truth to be in my head I wanted them to say something to the fact that you know oh we just needed time apart and of course we'll come back together I wanted what I thought the truth was if I had heard the real truth I I I think that it would have been devastating your dad was fooling around mhm and my mom did an amazing job of

never ever putting any blame on him of always being supportive of us having a relationship um but if she had said the truth I couldn't have a relationship with him I would have been too angry okay let's let's imagine this your advice just to that 8-year-old Betsy who was you I do grapple with this I it's hard cuz I know exactly what I wanted to hear when I was eight I think I would tell her that you know what I I would actually say this is probably how your life is going to be you know your parents are made this choice for you and now instead of questioning and wondering for so long why this Choice was made made how are you going to live your life now knowing this is your life I think I I Still Know Myself and I would have been persistent wanting answers regardless but I do think that I needed to feel less helpless well we broadcast Today's Show in 2007 Betsy Allison Walter is now Betsy new Schneider she has now been

teaching Elementary School for 25 years she has three kids of her own act three let no court put us under now we have this example of somebody trying to make breakups less horrible than they are barry burkeman used to be like any divorce lawyer he fought for his clients he tried to get the big settlements but he came to believe that what he was doing actually was not so good for most of his clients which you know was kind of a big problem here's the kind of thing he would see guy comes in ready for a divorce his wife had a lot of money they had worked out a deal but they did it on their own without seeing lawyers what what they what they decide and what they decided was that in order for him he he was a musician didn't have didn't have that much money but in order for him to live close to to her and to be able to see the kids which they both wanted she was going to give him enough money to purchase a small

Co-op um and it was great they were both happy as could be they're ready to do it uh they were told to see lawyers he came to see us we were fine with it and we said sure you know this looks good you did a good job she went to see a lawyer no way how can you give him that much it's not right that's what her lawyer was saying absolutely for the lawyer laer it was too much because he had an argument which could theoretically end up G giving her the greater part of her separate property right she ended up listening to the lawyer we ended up with a custody fight as well as a divorce fight wait and is that because the the money fight got so bitter at ex yeah then they started fighting over the kids which they hadn't fought over it all well wait how did that how did that kick in like like what was the moment where it went from being just about money being about the kids too what happened was the parties got so angry at each

other that they started quibbling about everything so if he had a gig and couldn't be home on time one evening she decided he was an unfit parent if she was spending too much time with her new boyfriend which this guy decided wasn't appropriate she became an unfit parent so the parties ended up fighting not not only about money but about the kids used up a good bit of her vast inheritance in the case and in the end she ended up buying them the same you know or similar co-opera in the similar neighborhood as the one she would have in the first place but it took a couple of years em bittered everyone and you had to think was this worthwhile did it have to happen adversarial St divorces make up a ton of all divorce proceedings around the country and but I felt like most of those cases ended up like this one incredibly expensive taking a huge emotional toll on everybody damaging children so after 15 years of doing

these cases like this he started looking for a different way and he found something called collaborative divorce in collaborative divorce each spouse gets a lawyer and then the spouses and the lawyers sit out in a room together to work out some kind of agreement but under the rules of collaborative divorce if one of the lawyers thinks that the other side is being intransigent or unreasonable not only can he not threaten to go to court if it does go to court he has to give up the case he has to give the case to another lawyer to do so the lawyers have an incentive to work everything out so okay they all sit down together the spouses and the lawyers and Barry Brickman says that even though the spouses enter this situation with good intentions of working everything out the biggest obstacle he has is something very simple I think often what happens is couples in Conflict lose the ability to listen to each other and so and so

you find yourself very often saying to your own client no no no no no listen to what they're saying absolutely absolutely and so one of not to agree with it but at least to understand it right that's the whole question to recognize that your point of view doesn't necessarily invalidate your spouse's point of view you're saying the most important thing people need to do is simply just uh listen to each other and and try to get along well I would say listen to each other yeah I don't know if that get getting along but they don't have to try to get along c c certainly listening goes the long way do things get uh so reasonable that you get people listening to each other well enough that people eventually um just get back together I I've had that happen once what what happened what happened was we had people who simply couldn't listen to each other he became very very busy in his own law practice she felt she was losing him

um part of it was they couldn't find the time to talk to each other but this collaborative divorce process makes you actually show up to meetings with your spouse and your lawyers and and start talking and as these two people talked they started to see each other's side of things maybe he hadn't been around enough maybe she could have been more supportive I think the Turning Point came when they were talking about what to do with the house and each one kind of recognized that they didn't really want to be living anywhere without the other person usually of course the spouses do not get back together when the process works Barry Brickman says at least they end up feeling a little better about each other to people say at the end of this process they appreciate your help and they're glad for the results but um they're still full of pain yeah I I mean we're not going to get rid of the pain the pain is there

long marriages the the pain is there I think going through this process enables people to get in touch with that pain and the real sadness um that they're experiencing which is sometimes covered up by their anger are you saying that at the end of this process actually just going through the dividing of assets which is really in the end all you're trying to do actually makes people's anger dissipate when you do it this way I I think going through the process where we reach and it's not just the it's not just the assets the assets are usually relatively easy don't don't forget we have uh the kids and uh the parenting and decision making and that's often a lot tougher I think going through the process where people reach points of understanding where maybe for the first time they get a glimpse of where the other person is coming from um and so all of a sudden they realize you know what it's not

necessary to demonize this person anymore and when they when they have those moments of understanding goes a long way toward helping them get on with the rest of their lives actually Barry burkeman is a lawyer in New York and a member of the New York Association of collaborative professionals which he helped found collaborative divorce by the way was invented by a Minneapolis lawyer named Stuart Webb act four divorce is rough we close our show today with this vignette of just how lost you feel when you lose somebody from Marl Marco recorded on stage at uncabaret in Los Angeles today our friend Paul came to the house in a near dissociative state of panic suddenly and without warning it appeared that his marriage was unraveling he sat down on the big red couch in the living room and I offered him a vodka as he started detailing his anguish up until yesterday if you'd asked me if my marriage was a happy one I would have

said yes he said choking back tears and then last night out of the blue my wife comes in and tells me she wants a divorce as Paul spoke Andy's dog puppy boy a skinny brown and black Tiana Shephard approached with his mouth full of a large black completely deflated soccer ball he placed the flat wet piece of rubber gently on Paul's knee and then sat down right in front of him to wait for the games to begin Paul was too upset to notice she told me she wants to start seeing other men Paul said tears welling up in his eyes and that's not even the worst of it today I found out from Friends they've already seen her around town with another guy they didn't want to say anything until now he began to cry and as he did puppy boy attempted to apply a little additional pressure by picking up the deflated piece of rubber off Paul's knee and moving it to a new spot a little further up Paul's leg but Paul had the bad maners to be

completely preoccupied by his own tragedy I have no idea what I'm going to do he said as poppy boy moved in a little closer and began staring a little harder his eyes going intently from the black flat rubber thing that was now balancing on Paul's thigh to Paul's face and then back to the flat black rubber thing as if to help Paul out in case he was having trouble locating it it's been just emotionally devastating Paul continued everything I've worked for is Fallen apart and what happens to to me now am I going to lose everything my house my cars my savings he broke down and began to sob the only time I've ever seen this incredibly stoic man cry which was a signal to puppy boy that the game was finally about to get going so he picked up the deflated Sager ball off Paul's thigh and moved it to the most conveniently located spot of all the very center of Paul's lap then he sat back down in front of Paul and

resumed his intense staring so I kept doing this for the whole two hours that Paul was at our house later that night after Paul had gone home to pick up the pieces of his shattered existence I began to wonder what puppy boy might have to say to him for himself about this Behavior so I asked him poppy boy replies hello new seated person I am puppy boy and I can see that you are very upset for some reason but I have something on my mind I'm going out on a limb here and tell you that it is the most important thing I have ever had to say and it is this I have placed a thing on you that you must throw if you look down now you will see it it is that large flat thing that is balancing on your knee please listen to me when I tell you that this is an opportunity you cannot pass up by the way you have noticed that your knee has a big flat wet thing balancing on it haven't you or are you so busy sobbing and weeping and talking about

yourself that you are having trouble seeing it here's a hint I'm staring at it right now so if you can imagine a laser beam coming from my eyes and then follow it down to the spot on your leg where it is focused it'll lead you right to it the only other possible explanation for your puzzling lack of interest is that you are purposefully ignoring me and why would you do that especially since you are really hurting yourself more than you are hurting me because let's face it you're the one who's passing up a great opportunity and bu a great opport I'm referring to the chance to have the kind of fun that everyone dreams of having I speak of the chance to throw a big flat stretchy wet thing and guess where it is right now throw it now or live a life of regret I mean I can't stop you if you'd rather just listen to yourself talk wife wife wife she did this she did that really fascinating for Christ's sakes look into

my eyes and play along pick up the big flat wet thing pick it up pick up the big flat wet thing pick it up pick it up pick up the big flat wet thing can you hear me okay pick up the big flat wet thing are you even listening you know maybe if you had listened a little better during your marriage your wife wouldn't want a divorce did you ever think of that it wouldn't surprise me if you never threw the thing she brought you either thank you Marl Marco at uncap in Los Angeles Merl's most Rec book is a graphic novel we saw scenery she's also in the upcoming season of the TV show hacks thanks to Greg Miller of un cabar I love you and you love and I of him I everything you love then he stopped Stop Loving You Glory Hallelujah somehow you start loving me I don't know why I love you I just do I really do it doesn't do me any good in fact it does me bad cuz you're oh so gone and I'm sad program was produced today by Robin

S and and myself with Alex Bloomberg j marie John Jeter Sarah kany Lisa po Alissa ship and Nancy Updike our senior producer for today's show is Julie Snyder production up from Seth Lind liia Navaro PJ vote and Alvin meith music help for today's show from Jessica Hopper help on today's rerun from Angela dvas and stone Nelson special thanks today to NPR Noah Adams interview from 1987 was originally broadcast on national public radios All Things Considered where I was a proud staffer and was used with permission of NPR thanks to Ellen Weise thanks to the Musicians who played Starly song in Act One Joe McGinty on keyboard Jeremy chatsky on bass and electric guitar Julia Greenberg on vocals and acoustic guitar and Natalie Weiss sings backup Starly K on tambourine when we first ran the show we invited listeners to take the raw tracks of Starly song and mix their own versions the response was kind

of incredible 129 entries you can hear the winners of our breakup song contest including the version you are hearing right now by we were pirates at our website thisamericanlife.org This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX the public radio exchange thanks as always to our program's co-founder Mr Tor malatia who's been listening to the show over the phone this week and you has some thoughts well well there's some great stuff in there I'm remember glass back next week with more stories of This American Life soad

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Break-Up | This American Life | Episode 339"?

Ira Glass (Host), Starley K (Guest), Phil Collins (Guest), Betsy Allison Walter (Guest), Barry Burkeman (Guest), Marl Marco (Guest).

What is "Break-Up | This American Life | Episode 339" about?

The main topic revolves around the emotional complexities and universal experiences of breakups, as illustrated through Lauren’s reflections on her own recent split. Key points include the rawness of her feelings, the repetitive patterns we all face in love, and how personal heartbreak can feel uniquely isolating despite being a common experience.

What is mentioned in this This American Life episode?

18 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including This American Life, American Life, Starley K, Against All Odds, Betsy Allison Walter, Joe McGinty. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Break-Up | This American Life | Episode 339"?

The episode runs 58 min; the transcript is about 9,820 words in 55 timestamped sections.

More from This American Life

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.