Transcript

Ten Things I Don't Want to Hate About You | This American Life | Episode 854

From This American Life · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 58 min · 8,729 words · 50 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Ten Things I Don't Want to Hate About You | This American Life | Episode 854", an episode of This American Life published March 6, 2025 (58 min, about 8,729 words). It mentions 6 people, works and ideas, including Zach Mack, Julie Green, Donald Trump, VOX Media, NPR.

What this episode is about

The narrative explores the complex relationship between a son and his father, highlighting their struggle to repair a long-standing rift while navigating fundamentally different perspectives. Central to the story is the father's unconventional proposal, triggered by his alarming concerns about an impending electromagnetic pulse, which ultimately sets the stage for their reconciliation efforts.

Key takeaways

  • Betting $10,000 on conspiracy theories: the ultimate father-son bonding experience or just a recipe for familial chaos?
  • Conversations about reality are harder than they seem; sometimes, the biggest rifts are born from different versions of truth.
  • A dad who used to crack jokes now bets on treason: is it a moral decline or just a shift in priorities?
  • When family disagreements escalate, the challenge may not be to win the argument, but to maintain the relationship.
  • Prepare for an EMP or a conversation: sometimes, the unpredictability of both can leave you equally unprepared.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Zach Mack
  2. – 10:00: Donald Trump
  3. – 15:00: Zach Mack, Costco
  4. – 25:00: Julie Green
  5. – 30:00: Julie Green
  6. – 40:00: Zach Mack
  7. – 55:00: Zach Mack, NPR, VOX Media

Notable quotes from "Ten Things I Don't Want to Hate About You | This American Life | Episode 854"

  • Matter how you try to talk it out it goes nowhere doesn't get solved even if they also want things to change we're devoting our entire show today to a story like that it's from…
    about Zach Mack · at
  • Also be convicted of treason same for Bill and Hillary Clinton who would go down for murder as well that Trump would be reinstated without an election and cleared of all…
    about Donald Trump · at
  • My mom it's getting pretty crazy and I don't even know half of it you know we have two generators in the house there are now eight Flats of water in the garage they got at…
    about Costco · at
  • Believes can commune directly with God I am the great revealer meet Julie green my dad's preferred Prophet a great fall is coming a fall of a global cabal my children 2024 will…
    about Julie Green · at
  • End we didn't make it Zach Mack he's a producer at VOX media this story was a collaboration with NPR's embedded podcast which if you haven't heard them you should check them out they have lots of documentary.
    about VOX Media · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Zach Mack — Person · Main speaker · 4 mentions · first at
    Narrator and central subject of the episode, describing a year-long bet with his father about political/prophetic predictions and its impact on their family.
  • Julie Green — Person · Referenced influencer / religious figure · 3 mentions · first at
    Identified as the father’s primary online 'prophet' source for the predictions, linking his conspiratorial beliefs to a specific media figure and content stream.
  • Donald Trump — Person · Referenced public figure · 1 mention · first at
    Central to multiple predictions (reinstatement, charges dropped) and a focal point of the political-prophecy ecosystem influencing Zach’s father.

Companies & orgs

  • VOX Media — Company · Affiliation · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as the company where Zach Mack works as a producer.
  • NPR — Company · Collaborator · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as a collaborator in producing the story about Zach and his father.
    Zach Mack he's a producer at VOX media this story was a collaboration with NPR's embedded podcast which if you haven't heard them you should check them out they have lots of documentary stories like this David kbal and our.
  • Costco — Company · Referenced business · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as the place where Zach's father bought water and food supplies.

Full transcript with timestamps

a quick warning there are curse words that are un beeped in today's episode of the show if you prefer a beeped version you can find that at our website thisamericanlife.org I think we all have people in our Lives who we love but there's no talking to them they have the way of seeing things or doing things it's hard to take and no matter how you try to talk it out it goes nowhere doesn't get solved even if they also want things to change we're devoting our entire show today to a story like that it's from Zach Mack who's a reporter and the story is about him and his dad and how they both wanted to mend a rift that had grown between them that lasted for years but they couldn't figure out how until Zach's dad offered a very surprising way out that's going to be our whole show today his dad's unusual solution and how it played out that's all I'm going to say for now from WBZ Chicago it's say

American life I'm out of glass and with that I turn things over to Zach this all started about a year ago my father called and left me this message hey Zach uh dad again um good conversation last week uh last night um hey I didn't remember to tell you this because I was kind of tired but they're gonna they're gonna shut us down again and it's going to be a worse shutdown than 2020 because of this EMP this all the supply lines are are going to be disrupted so you really want to store up two months worth of food and water because they probably won't be able to pump water uh throughout the city because all that's all controlled by computers and electronics and the EMP is going to shut down everything electronic my dad's talking about something called an electromagnetic pulse EMP for short which I only know about because it's what George Clooney uses in the movie Oceans 11 to pull off the casino Heist what's a pinch a pinch is a

device which creates like a cardiac arrest for any Broadband electrical circuitry an electromagnetic pulse which shuts down any power source within its blast radius that you should buy enough water I can't remember a single other time dad left me a message expressing a safety concern but he was really convinced this was going to happen at one point he even did a little math for how much water I would need to survive so I would buy you know 60 * 10 which is 600 Oz I know I I know it sounds like conspiracy theory but they're they're going to do this this this is what they're planning and I just want to have you be prepared okay okay so just a little background I wouldn't describe my father as a paranoid person I wouldn't even call him an anxious person he's actually an optimist and usually prefers to keep things light so a lot of dad jokes what else he's held down the same job forever he has friends not close ones but

there's dudes he goes skiing and sailing with when I was growing up Dad was kind of in his own world mom was always the more involved parent the one who knew all my friends and whatever was going on with me Dad and I have never been particularly close typically when I hear from him on the phone it's during an Ohio State football game we both love the Buckeyes so during a game he'll call me like five or six times but not much Beyond games though Ohio State football is like the one thing we can't agree on the thing we can't seem to agree on is reality like so many people dad's gotten swept up in conspiracies lately he's been talking about Chemtrails that the government can control the weather that January 6th was staged by what he calls the Deep State as he's gotten more extreme in the last few years I've seen my mom and sister retract and shut down around him I'm typically the one who challenges out on

this stuff because I'm a reporter I can't resist taking the bait it's called denying us freedom of speech no it's called denying us freedom of speech it's misinformation no who who gets the right to to label it misinformation of course it never goes anywhere until a year ago after a family blow out over the holidays that was so bad my sister and I left early I decided to confront my father I could see how his beliefs were starting to strain the family and I worried that pretty soon there may be no coming back for him I told him I thought he was being radicalized online and pleaded with him to hear me as always he didn't agree but what he did next surprised me dad texted me a photo of a sheet of paper where in his barely legible cursive he had written out a list of 10 predictions 10 things that he was positive would all take place sometime in 2024 a assuring me that when all of these things happened I would see

once and for all that he was right at the bottom of the page was a challenge to a bet for $10,000 and let me just say Dad and I are not big gamblers nor are we rich 10K is easily more money than either of us has ever wagered looking over the list I was a combination of surprised horrified and also it was a little hard to take seriously I immediately called him up to discuss the terms of the BET do you have the list in front of you because you you yeah yeah can you walk me through the the one through 10 I just want to add each one I'll probably have a couple clarifying questions yeah absolutely keep in mind this call took place back in January 2024 number one uh Obama will be found guilty of treason in 2024 so like by a court yes okay not not the court of public opinion correct okay and then number two oh yeah uh Biden will be found guilty of treason in 2024 just treason for something specific

for for selling all those secrets that he had in the back of his Corvette um I don't know if that's a joke I'm not sure it's partially a joke but it's also it's also real I mean it could it went on like this all political dad's other predictions were that Nancy Pelosi would also be convicted of treason same for Bill and Hillary Clinton who would go down for murder as well that Trump would be reinstated without an election and cleared of all charges that Biden would be removed from office same for both the governor and mayor of New York and as a New York City resident I didn't hate that last one you know that one I'm actually kind of hopeful we get that one because I you know I'm not I don't really love Eric Adams he's kind of an idiot so I'm with you on that one yep he's a total idiot GL I'm and I'm impressed that you see that so good one one we can both cheer for eventually we landed on his final

prediction for 2024 his boldest one number 10 I threw this in because I thought you'd be excited about it yeah it's an exciting one it's probably the most exciting one the US will come under martial law in 2024 because of mass rioting and Chaos so that milit military will have to step in for the record I was never actually excited about the possibility of this happening do you think this will be happening all over the country only in certain parts well the whole the whole United States will come under martial law and the biggest cities will be targeted you know New York unfortunately Washington DC the Bay Area okay you seem pretty confident about that I am 100 per confident because this is like a pretty this pretty huge shakeup yeah I would say it it our country hasn't seen anything like this since the Civil War probably well not even in the Civil War this this is going to be the biggest

shakeup to ever hit the United States of America and the World At Large I mean I think the way you've laid it out here there'll be a pretty clear case of like who's right and who's wrong yeah yeah I think it will be very black and white and if you are wrong then you're $110,000 richer yeah but look I'm not this isn't just about the money right I would I would like to um make make some positive strides uh for our family well I think I think that once you see that I haven't been duped by Ai and social media right and the algorithms I think you will gain a lot more respect for who I am and how I think and how I've come to believe the other thing I wanna I want to have you say after each one of these through is that wow dad you were right and I was wrong same goes for you then okay absolutely all right deal happy to do it and so our Strange bet was on I saw Dad's challenge as an opening instead of

just arguing until the end of time we were actually going to settle this and now we had a deadline New Year's 2025 the moment I saw his proposal I knew I had him beat and for the very first time he'd have to admit he was wrong all I had to do was wait 12 months and once he decisively lost I figured he'd be more open to my version of the truth and maybe I could pull him back to reality a bit and the timing for the BET couldn't be better because his beliefs were starting to tear our family apart coming up Zach calls his mom who has some news of her own stay with us this American life Zach Mack picks up his story about his year long bet with his dad not long after making the beted I called my mom my parents have been married for 40 years they met in their 20s in Chicago fell in love and moved to California where they eventually had my sister and I we grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area a pretty liberal

place which worked for my mom because she's a pretty liberal Jewish woman dad has always been the man out the lone Christian conservative though growing up he was much quieter about his beliefs and when my parents met neither of them were religious but Dad got back into it when I was young now he's very into it that's been difficult for my parents for decades but now with the conspiracy stuff emerging it's been really hard on my mom it's getting pretty crazy and I don't even know half of it you know we have two generators in the house there are now eight Flats of water in the garage they got at Costco and some kind of fancy water filter system that was a couple hundred dollars he's he's stockpiling weird food what kind of food you know 12 cans of canned chicken okay and I'm like I have never eaten canned chicken you have never eaten canned chicken why is there canned chicken I feel like returning it all

this week while he's not home and he moved some money without my permission how did he do that he didn't need your sign off no because it's a joint account and he withdrew from a joint account without telling me and made a purchase he knew I would never approve what was it he bought a precious metal because Dad's worried the banks are going to collapse he wants to move big chunks of their money into things like platinum and silver why is he so unwilling to listen to everyone around him I don't know I wish I knew because then I could crack it I don't know how to pull them back I have been very clear that I'm not sure how much more I can take and have you been clear with him about that I yeah and I've even said you know I'm considering leaving ending the marriage you said yeah which is very hard for me to say because I'm 69 I'm about to retire yeah not necessarily the life I had planned for myself to be

alone but what kind of life do I have now Mom was initially irritated by the bet because Dad didn't run it by her first which happen a lot but the idea of a deadline that was starting to make sense to her I need an end point and so the end point is December 31 when January 1 comes around things have to change I'm only gonna put up I I can barely put up with it now and I can't put up with it after that later I called my sister Kira about the BET unfortunately she's been having her own conflict with dad also about his beliefs two years ago Kira came out to him my mom and I had known for years but Kira was always afraid to tell Dad because she thought he'd disapprove it didn't go well he said he'd always love my sister but he thought she was choosing to be gay and he didn't agree with that choice I think the hardest part is that he like looked at me and told me that I was wrong about myself

and that he was right and I don't understand how he could know that Kira and I are close and when I told her about the bet she liked the idea of forcing dad to confront the reality that some of his beliefs are likely wrong but we weren't sure if that helped her situation either way so like let's say these things don't come true and he's willing to say like I was wrong about these things I don't feel like that would affect his beliefs around me like even if he's right about everything else I'm probably still going to be gay after that so Dad and I had a year January came and went and neither of us put any points on the board with the BET then in February dad caught a small break with mayor Adams he had been under investigation for months and things were heating up the FBI raided one of his advisers and someone else pled guilty to conspiracy charges seemed like Dad could actually win that one

then in March the New York Governor sent the National Guard into the subway which if you squint could look like the pretense to marshal law while we waited for the other predictions to come true or not tried to make the most of the time I found myself thinking back to something dad said to me at the end of an argument once a few years back he said well you don't really know me and I wondered if he might be right that maybe I didn't really know him and if I had any hope of changing his mind or even nudging the trory of his beliefs I would need to understand my father better so I decided to make a project of it one question I still had was how he'd even gotten here though looking back there were signs I remember my mom telling me about how when I was a child dad didn't want me to get vaccinated mom wasn't having it so I ended up getting all my shots but I never really understood where Dad's Hang-Ups came

from but now that we had some time to kill I could ask him I know uh throughout my lifetime you have been distrusting of vaccines is that is that fair to say yeah yeah that's definitely true I'm wondering I'm wondering when that began um well the seed was planted actually when before I went to school as a child as a child back in the 60s dad was about to enter Elementary School in Ohio and there was a new law requiring vaccines now remember Grandpa my dad was a chiropractor and so he he believed in natural immunity um and and the body's ability to heal itself and so he was an antivaxer okay and I mean we didn't call him that back then but it's the same difference and and I just wanted to go to school and I kept telling my dad and my mom hey it's okay you know I I you know I'm not afraid of the vaccination you know I'm willing to go and um you know I just want to go to school so I was not able to go to kindergarten

because we couldn't find a school that would accept me without a vaccination oh wow so you didn't go to kindergarten I did not go to kindergarten would do you think your dad was um I don't know how would you describe him would you describe him as stubborn oh yeah stubborn very opinionated hard-headed at times dad was one of six children the family was supported primarily L by my grandpa who had a small Chiropractic business that is until the Ohio State Medical Board cracked down on him and so they literally threw my dad in jail for a couple of days for practicing without a license the way Dad tells it after my grandfather's business dissolved he was never able to recover he became so depressed that he literally couldn't get out of bed for like six months and he was never the same man that that literally broke him wow and how old were you when this happened I was like 13 or 14 years old one of the things I remember most

about my grandfather is how tall and thin he was and how one time when he came to visit us his body had just completely changed he had suddenly gained over a 100 lb in a very short amount of time he was going through some mental health issues that the family never fully understood and it was affecting his weight and his ability to sleep he wouldn't really sleep during the night which meant that throughout the day he would constantly fall asleep he'd be in the middle of a conversation sometimes or even at dinner and he'd just start snoring minutes later he'd abruptly wake up and carry on as if nothing happened this also began to happen while he was driving my grandpa got into a number of car accidents he totaled several cars and nearly killed my grandmother he refused to stop driving and even went to a neighboring state to get a driver's license after his was taken away he refused to admit

anything was wrong the family tried to talk to him so did my father several times and when that didn't work and I'd never heard this part of the story before Dad tried something else I wrote him a long letter I wrote him like a two or three Page Letter and mailed it to him um because I wanted him to be able to read the whole letter so I could finish what I really wanted to say to him without interruption and I said you know Dad I love you I want the best for you you know I'm not trying to say anything horrible or damaging or critical about you but your whole family is concerned about you can't you see this can't you recognize that we all would like to see you live to a rip old age because I said if you continue on this path I don't know when you're going to die but I know you're going to die so not long after this I was 10 years old at the time my parents called my sister and me into the kitchen to tell

us something but before they said anything I already knew my grandfather was dead his vehicle veered off the road and flipped over when I think about my grandfather I think about how what caused his death may have been stubbornness a refusal to listen to those around him he was 68 years old the same age my father was when he proposed our bet as the year pressed on we continue discussing Dad's life and the things he he'd come to believe turns out a lot of his predictions were coming from a single Source online and something you should know about my father is that he really struggles with technology he can barely navigate the internet he can't even figure out how to access his own email account from his laptop around 2019 dad got an iPad and that felt like a turning point it wasn't long until he started saying weird things one time I was home visiting and we got into it because he was trying to tell me that

the government was controlling Facebook from the very beginning and that Mark Zuckerberg was just a pawn and when the pandemic hit it felt like the perfect storm like so many of us dead when searching for answers I was Googling around trying to find someone who I thought was um reputable reliable and truly plugged into God I was trying to find someone who was um a legitimate Prophet because there's a lot of false prophets out there what dad found was a lot of conspiracies of course but also the next evolution of his faith during the pandemic dad came to believe strongly in Prophecy the idea that God still speaks through intermediaries when you're talking about how God speaks today and and you believe it's through prophets that is a divisive within Christianity right that is a divisive thought very very divisive why do you believe it um because he's always had prophets and it makes sense that just

like he had prophets in Old Testament times yeah he would continue with it why would he suddenly stop I I never quite understood why God would stop talking to his people sure enough dad found someone he believes can commune directly with God I am the great revealer meet Julie green my dad's preferred Prophet a great fall is coming a fall of a global cabal my children 2024 will be a year like no other I I firmly believe that God did lead me to Julie green she's not particularly big online a couple hundred thousand subscribers but she's part of a growing movement within Christianity that emphasizes spiritual warfare and politics it's all very trumpy and full of prophecies secrets in the White House are about to be revealed the Obamas the clintons Adam schi Mitch McConnell Chuck Schumer Nancy py as you can probably tell this is where Dad's getting most of his predictions and when I talk to Dad

about these predictions it's clear that for him they all stem from his religious beliefs which I've always found someone confusing because when I look at his list none of these things seem to have anything to do with God at all in July some news President Biden announced he was withdrawing as the Democratic nominee for president I thought what was dad's prediction again oh he said removed from office guess I'm in the clear as the year sped by I read books with titles like when prophecy fails I spoke to a number of clinicians and conspiracy experts met my dad's pastors I even interviewed several of his friends none of them shared his beliefs but they said they didn't really argue with him about it either only one said it hurt their friendship with dad sometimes i' send Dad highlights of articles debunking some of his more out thereare claims like the one about how the Joe Biden you see on the news is

actually a body double well it's a it's actually a common practice in a lot of third world countries um look at Saddam Hussein Saddam Hussein had they aren't even sure but over a half a dozen body doubles that's why he could appear in one part of the country one day and someplace else another day yeah I don't think they were like giving speeches and you know making policy on his behalf though you know what I'm saying I think they were just like maybe like some of them but mostly they were yeah they were just appearances fun fact while we're we're talking about body devil when the Biden why do you call him the Biden well because it's a body double okay the last time Netanyahu mhm who's the Israeli Prime Minister came to visit the US here in Washington DC it was interesting that the fake Biden stood six Ines taller than Netanyahu Netanyahu and Biden are both listed to be 5' 10 in tall so don't you find it

interesting that when they were standing side by side in a couple of photos that Biden was suddenly six inches taller well first of all Biden's listed height is six feet let's see what n Yahoo is height is he's he's also 6 feet it says okay yeah they're the the same height the point is that the same height I thought it was 5'10 so yeah so it's 6 feet are are you talking about this image yeah I think that's it yeah he looks a little taller well but he's taller in every picture this is a different place are they the same height they don't look the same height in this okay that's my point they are the same height why well people lie about their heights all the time right so I'm I'm sure you know Alan Iverson was always listed as 61 he was actually 510 right people you know I get that I get that but presidents don't do this my fact Checker wants me to point out here that we don't actually know

alen Iverson's real height or nyah's height or whether or not Saddam Hussein had body doubles but this is the joy of debating a conspiracy theorist inevitably you run out of patience or just don't know the facts well enough to continue pushing back so whenever I debate dad it feels like I can never do enough research or compile enough evidence later in the summer I was reading a science journal and saw a Poss way around that this research group was doing some experiments where they had some conspiracy theorists engage in conversations with AI chat Bots which had all the facts could push back gently and unlike me had infinite patience the data on its Effectiveness looked pretty promising so I reached out and actually got them to program something special just for my dad to try which he did for several minutes to be honest it it didn't say anything that I hadn't already heard swinging a Miss but the work

continues in August dad got it in his head that kamla Harris was going to be replaced as a democratic nominee at the convention and out of nowhere he made a second political conspiracy bet this time with my mom the terms if mom lost she'd have to give up as he put it all mainstream media for the rest of of the year and if he lost he'd have to stop watching Julie green entirely his favorite Prophet much to mom and I's Delight he lost that bet a few days later when Harris officially accepted the nomination your father's in his silk robe and he's got a cocktail yeah drink up buddy so Dad so no more Julie green so the end of the year correct how do you feel about that um I'm disappointed but it's okay I have other resources it did feel like a relief that he wouldn't be watching Julie green anymore and him admitting he was wrong that was something by the Fall dad and I were speaking more than ever and in ways we

never have do you feel like I know you now better oh absolutely yeah you know me these conversations and just talking about my dad and all the rest absolutely and of course football season was kicking off so there were lots of calls and voicemails about Ohio state three penalties on this drive against Ohio State and now Johnson waiting back we like they should have thrown on first down or at least second down anyway I'll talk to you at halftime dad and I were getting along better than ever but time on our bet was running out we're down to the last four months last third of the year how do you feel about that um impatient I really thought more would have happened by

now you know I I don't think I ever asked you this and I should should have asked you why did you challenge me to this bet oh why did I challenge you to this bet that's a good question I'm um I wanted to get your attention like what do you mean by that well because I wanted you to believe that um God is still active and alive and still um in control of the world and I thought this would be a concrete way for you to see that and experience that um man that's I I didn't think about it that way so it's sort of about you wanting me to get closer to God yeah I mean that I think that's very touching I think you're like super wrong about all these predictions but that your reasoning is very touching okay like I I I appreciate that anyways okay I'm I'm gonna let's let's end on a high note okay sounds good we'll talk to you soon sounds good love you guys hey and you know what Zach huh this alone has been well worth it

all the conversations we' had this alone I mean to be perfectly honest if I had to pay you 50 grand for the time we've spent together every Penny's been worth it I well I can't handle you saying things like that this is like too nice this like too sweet too sweet uh I appreciate it Dad it's it's it's actually been really nice talking to you too all right all right take care you too good night as we stretched into November dad mom and I got hit with some sad news after a year of nearly no contact with my father my sister informed the family that she wouldn't be coming home for the holidays which in my lifetime I count only three times we've ever missed the holidays together why aren't you coming home for Christmas because I don't want to be there um H I feel like I'm gonna cry I think last year was so terrible um incredibly terrible for me and the thought of being back in that space feels

awful why would I choose that I'm not going to get okay with him believing that I'm somebody that I'm not and and wanting so badly for me to be something else and and it's hard because I say that and then I immediately think well that's what I want from him I want him to fundamentally change who he is and be a different person that's where I feel stuck is like when you when we both we want the same things from each other and I don't know if that's possible I don't know either the BET was nearly over but it felt like our family was barely hanging on then December came it was just days before Christmas days before I was flying home and mom called me with another update hey how are you a lot gone on in the last 12 hours she began to fill me in are just the night before Mom and Dad were talking about the state of the family over dinner and I told him that um he was welcomed to come Christmas

Eve but um that likely Christmas day you and I would do something by ourselves and he got very upset that and we had a I mean I can't remember exactly all the parts of the conversation but I said the the reasoning where how I got to this place was the situation with Kira and then you know I I was tolerant of his religious Journey um I can be tolerant of political differences but when he started following the um the YouTube [ __ ] Prophet the prophit stuff and and what I feel is fake news and all of the Doom and Gloom and generators and um Flats of water and granola bars all over the place I said I just it I I can't anymore I just can't anymore 40y year history is just not enough for me we are already living very very Separate Lives separate realities yeah in separate reality he didn't say that he said that he's not going to change his religious viewpoints he's not going to change and then I just said and then I

just don't see I don't see a path where this marriage can continue I don't see a path for me and what did he say he he sort of didn't really respond after 40 years of marriage they had agreed to separate and for my dad to move out dad's beliefs around Kira the conspiracies it had just become too much I'm embarrassed to say the situation with Kira wasn't the one that knocked it over but I was ever hopeful that he would come to a reality about that mhm but what I realized is that he's he's Beyond Redemption at this point there's this there's this little piece of me that is like you have this conversation with him on January 1 his list is debunked he will realize if he steps back and looks at the whole picture that he's not grounded in any reality and that he'll have an Awakening and I will have a marriage and a family so this was the situation I flew home to things felt weird I spent the week crashing at friends houses and in

hotels mom slept in Kira's room Christmas day as you can imagine was sad there were no gifts exchanged mom and I just went to the movies and ate Chinese food I'm not even sure what my father or sister got up to that day a few days later dad said he was ready to sit down and close out the bed coming up somebody's going to need to say as promised you were right I was wrong which can be such a powerful thing in any relationship that's in a minute Chago public radio when our program continues it's This American Life Mar class our show today 10 Things I Don't Want To Hate About You about Zach Mack and his year-long bet with his Dad we have arrived at the end of December Zach's family is not doing well and there's still the bet I know this sounds crazy because as bad as things had gotten dad was still excited about settling up I had no idea what he was going to say but as we often are we started off pretty playfully

which is our way of postponing the hard stuff all right okay here we go hand me the uh wine here oh I should go get my list right yeah go get your list yeah let me list let me just have it too so I can look at it and see if there's anything I can pretend happened well at least so far we're sharing a reality okay uh I'm just going to go through the list for your 10 predictions for the year we'll start there okay we'll start with the easy ones there's four that can easily be grouped together and that is Barack Obama will be convicted of treason Joe Biden will be convicted of treason Nancy Pelosi convicted of treason the clintons convicted of treason and murder right those are those are all kind of I would group them categorically yeah I began no investigations no charges no convictions literally no momentum of any kind and yes I fully hoped that would take place before the end of 2024 but that has not taken place if

you're keeping score at home that's four for me all right next one you said Trump will be reinstated without an election Trump won reelection he was not reinstated without an election mhm that's five next prediction Trump will have all charges dropped on May 30th 2024 Trump was found guilty and convicted on 34 felony charges in the New York hush money trial yeah to be fair to Dad charges in two other cases were dropped but dad's prediction was all charges so that makes six for me moving on next one uh you said Governor hokel the governor of New York would be removed from office Governor hok is currently in office with no charges being brought against her she will be up for reelection in 2026 that is correct okay seven rebut onto the home stretch Biden will be removed from office okay so Biden's still in the White House you're not you're not rebutting that yeah well CU somebody pretending to be the Biden is

in the White House okay and we're back to body doubles but even still he conceded the point so that's eight okay then there's Eric Adams the mayor of New York who dad predicted would be removed from office which still might happen but Dad said by the end of 2024 as it stands right now he's still the mayor right tough break but that makes nine okay last one our country would come under martial law as far as I know that didn't happen that did not happen Okay no any rebuttal there I'm very happy that that didn't happen and that makes 10 however oh no I still see that as a strong possibility of happening I I I think it still has a strong possibility of happening within the next two months here we go and I still am 100% positive all these are true even though none of them came true even though none of them have been actualized by the end of 2024 so your explanation for why these things did not yet come to pass is that

you just got the timeline wrong yes we're sort of starting where we where we're ending which is you still believe what you believe mhm and I still believe that that's false correct I had waited for so long to hear him say the magic words we agreed to a year ago now the moment finally came wow Zach I was wrong and um and what and not only were you wrong and and you were correct to tell you the truth hearing this was completely unsatisfying because I knew he didn't really believe it I had won the bet but it didn't really feel like winning I just see sort of an unwillingness to for you to be wrong wrong about 10 things I'm I'm going to admit I was wrong about the timeline on all 10 things I've you see how you preface it not not that you're wrong about them you're just wrong about the timeline yeah but that's still a type of wrong sure but it's a half measure it's a way for you to be right I

can't say I was surprised all year long I had read about how unlikely it is to pull someone away from these kinds of beliefs how when Believers of a prophecy witness it not come to pass that often times they inexplicably double down which was exactly what he was doing all of these these beliefs it feels like you're you're really holding on to them and I'm not sure why cuz I I know they're true why am I going to abandon truth why would I I believe a lie why would I give that up and it's not an arrogant thing it's it's it's it's a knowing in my in my soul and in my spirit so yeah I mean I can't I can't abandon the truth I was getting nowhere and it was frustrating but I thought this is history repeating itself surely he could see that right one one of the things I thought a lot about during this process is like is your dad and what happened to him and in the face of so many people around him including yourself saying hey

you're going down the wrong road like don't do this please listen mhm and he he wouldn't he wouldn't hear it from anyone okay and it cost him his life I see a lot of parallels with what's happening right now interesting I you know I don't think you're at risk of physical danger so much yeah I think you're at risk of a lot of other things like what Financial ruin I think you're at risk of being ostracized and like completely left out of this family Dynamic that would break my heart but I I see that you're at risk reputationally how so I feel like the closest friends in your life your family the you know the people around you are telling you hey you're going the wrong way and you're not you're not listening actually none of them are saying that to me none of them none of them okay the only people who said that are you and mom so if all those people told told you would you hear them I would listen to

them I probably wouldn't change but i' listen to him I take it into consideration so you don't think that sounds like your dad that aspect of it yeah but my dad my dad had trouble living in reality I don't have a trouble living in reality I would I would argue that you do I mean look at the state of our family right now I and I think we've gotten to this place in large part because of your beliefs well we've gotten here completely because of a difference in beliefs yeah you can point the finger at me and say it's because of your beliefs well that's partially true but it's simultaneously because of your the three of your beliefs right and I understand your beliefs but I don't believe that way I'm not going to pretend I believe that way and I know you guys don't want me just to pretend you you want me to embrace it yeah and live it and think it and breathe it the same way you do I can't do

that therefore it creates a wedge right yeah but it doesn't have to and I think the postco years have really magnified and polarized people yeah but I would say that's when you got radicalized I don't think ultimately mom Kira and I have changed a lot ideologically since that time I don't think you're in the same place I could I can I can agree with that I see that I have made more significant changes in the past four years in terms of my own spiritual awareness and spiritual growth yeah so and that certainly I know feels and looks very radical let's talk about mom for a second oh I think I think I think your mom I don't know what I think about her anymore I mean I don't think negative about her other than she's lost and confused I mean I I guess she would say that about you probably and a lot worse I I continue to love your mom but this was the irony she sits in Judgment of me and therefore judges me Unworthy

of being her partner and and husband anymore I mean short of pretending to be somebody who I'm not I don't see a solution yeah I agree I watched his frustration rise as he came up empty over and over slowly realizing there was no fixing this I mean look I think this year has been difficult especially recently mhm I do feel like we are getting along really well I do feel conflicted because as that's happening you and Mom are getting separated and kir is not home for Christmas and those are all because of your beliefs I can accept you and love you and have my beliefs and accept your beliefs you can't accept my beliefs without judging me you don't think you're judging Kira not at all I love my daughter I love Cara I know that you do I would never I would never disown my daughter but I I think Kira Kira does feel rejected she does not feel fully accepted by you yeah I get that it's not about rejection see that's how you guys

label it but it's not rejection it's it's about looking at it from a spiritual Viewpoint where this is not what God wants for her as the conversation wound down I let go of any notion that I could convince him of anything I was finally ready to stop struggling and just accept the truth I couldn't help him I just want to say I do really appreciate oh man sorry it's it's been it's been a hard year man yeah I mean I appreciate the conversations we've had all year like I I've I do feel I don't know I feel closer to you than I ever have and I'm I'm really sad about the state of this family yeah but I I do appreciate your your openness your willingness to you never ducked you never ducked a hard question no need

to I don't know I mean where do you think we'll be next Christmas I I don't know I have no idea yeah I have no idea man um I can't even think that far ahead yeah I have one final question for you okay how are you going to pay me um check should we go to the bank should I get one of those giant golf checks I figured you'd probably want small unmarked bills nonsequential yes so do you did you bring a suitcase I have a gym bag okay we'll fill that puppy up let's do it we made the bet a year ago go but I've waited a lot longer than that to have this conversation with him all right let's get a hug oh I love you I love you too as we stood there hugging I just broke down I'm sorry I'm sorry it's

I don't know what comes next where the family goes from here it felt like things fell apart so quickly but also slowly over many years I think in many ways I'm the one who got off the easiest I'm still in good standing with everyone which makes me feel a mixture of relief and guilt and if you're wondering yes I took the money absolutely okay we're walking in the Rose Ball yeah how do you feel but on New Year's Day the day my dad officially lost the bet I'm pumped up I took him to GOI Ohio State our favorite football team play in the Rose Bowl what do you think the score is going to be and paid for everything I think it's going to be 31 to 22 bucks yet another prediction my father got wrong by the way but they did win go Buckey let's go oh all right let's go it felt good to treat dad with his own money and to agree on the one reality we've always shared football maybe the only one we ever

will as I watched the clock run down I knew that the moment the game was over we'd have to face the fact that as a family in the end we didn't make it Zach Mack he's a producer at VOX media this story was a collaboration with NPR's embedded podcast which if you haven't heard them you should check them out they have lots of documentary stories like this David kbal and our staff worked on the story here the staff who worked on it there with producers Dan GMA and Ariana garab Le editing by Luis trus Katie Simon is embedded showrunner some original music in this episode was composed by Peter Leonard factchecking by Greta Piner and the embedded staff and Christoper suala and our staff MBR is embedded is releasing a three-part series about Zach's bet with his dad that get into into material that we did not have time for here including some reviewing conversations with his dad's friends and some more interesting

stuff from Zach and his dad it is available now you can find embedded wherever you get your podcast together with suspicious suspicious and we can build our Dre supicious well today's episode was produced by Lily Sullivan the people who put together today's show include FIA bennon Michael kamea cornfeld Angela jasi Cassie H Han jofy Walt Seth Lynn kathern Rondo Stone Nelson Nadia Raymond Ryan rumy Alysa ship Francis Swanson and Diane woo our managing editor Sarah abdad our executive editor is Emanuel Barry special thanks today to Avery truan if you like our show and you want more of our show we've been cranking out bonus episodes every two weeks this week the bonus episode is interviews with my cousin the composer Philip Glass including one where he sits at a piano and he explains what he hears when he listens to his own music to get that and all of our bonus episodes we've been trying all kinds of stuff become a life

partner when you do you also get adree listening you get the special Archive of over 100 greatest hits episodes that show up right in your podcast feed for your convenience how do you get all this it could not be easier go to thisamericanlife.org slife Partners This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX the public radio exchange thanks as always to our show's co-founder Mr Tor malatia fun fact about him he has never seen a panda he told me he's going to a zoo this weekend to do just that I think it will be very black and white I'm Eric Glass back next week with more stories of This American Life why can't you see what you doing for me when you don't believe a word I say don't you know I can't walk out

next week on the podcast of This American Life Brandon's first girlfriend dumped him because he was too obsessed with sports so when he met Cecilia he tried a new tactic they were out and a friend asked him about the Celtics and he was like I'm not done into sports anymore even when the words came out of my mouth I I was sort of thinking huh you just said that then he had to live with lie lies that make no sense next week on the podcast or in your local Bub radio station B

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Ten Things I Don't Want to Hate About You | This American Life | Episode 854"?

Ira Glass (Host), Zach Mack (Guest), Zach's Dad (Guest), Zach's Mom (Guest), Kira Mack (Guest).

What is "Ten Things I Don't Want to Hate About You | This American Life | Episode 854" about?

The narrative explores the complex relationship between a son and his father, highlighting their struggle to repair a long-standing rift while navigating fundamentally different perspectives. Central to the story is the father's unconventional proposal, triggered by his alarming concerns about an impending electromagnetic pulse, which ultimately sets the stage for their reconciliation efforts.

What is mentioned in this This American Life episode?

6 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Zach Mack, Julie Green, Donald Trump, VOX Media, NPR, Costco. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Ten Things I Don't Want to Hate About You | This American Life | Episode 854"?

The episode runs 58 min; the transcript is about 8,729 words in 50 timestamped sections.

More from This American Life

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.