Richard Allen - Interrogation Analysis

What this episode is about

The analysis focuses on the interrogations of Richard Allen, who was convicted for the 2017 murders of two young girls in Delphi, Indiana. It examines the chilling circumstances surrounding the case, including a crucial 40-second video recorded by one of the victims that captured a suspect and audio of him giving directives before their tragic deaths.

Key takeaways

• Richard Allen's wife inadvertently holds the key to an investigation, highlighting how domestic context shapes criminal narratives.
• The infamous 'down the hill' line becomes a chilling twist in the case, blurring the lines between predator and prey.
• In interrogations, family can be both ally and adversary—Allen's wife amplifies the psychological pressure in a tense revelation.
• This case is a reminder: alibis can be brittle, especially when built on the shifting sands of familial trust.
• When your defense dwindles to 'I love you, baby,' you've officially crossed from suspect to desperate husband—an emotional cliffhanger.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Richard Allen (Guest) · 27 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Richard Allen, Kathy Allen, Abby and Libby, Abby
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Richard Allen, Deli, Indiana
3. 20:00 – 30:00: October 13, 2022, CVS, Wal-Mart
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Tom Webster, Richard Allen
5. 1:00:00 – 1:08:36: Richard Allen, Kathy Allen

Notable quotes from "Richard Allen - Interrogation Analysis"

• Folks, welcome back. So, get a load of this. A month or two ago, the Richard Allen interrogations, the guy that was convicted for the 2017 Deli murders, were uploaded to YouTube for the first time. Pretty interesting stuff. There's.

  about Richard Allen · at 0:01

• And Libby were creeped out enough by a weirdo following them on the hiking trail that Libby thought, you know what?

  about Abby and Libby · at 1:18

• Get. Like I said, if you were out on the trails that day, please reach out. We need to talk. Across town, Richard Allen's wife, Kathy Allen, hears that statement. I don't know…

  about Kathy Allen · at 2:41

• Here. And so five and a half years after, after realizing the mistake, they go get him. They bring him down to the station, which should have happened years ago in a proper room that's being recorded, the whole thing. It's October 13th,.

  about October 13, 2022 · at 18:31

• Room, all of a sudden it's going from all right, he's talking about his career. He worked at Walmart. He worked at CVS. And then all of a sudden it's all right. Here's the guy…

  about Wal-Mart · at 24:01

• The description. It's from an a YouTuber's account, Tom Webster, which in my opinion, he became the best YouTube channel for this Deli, the whole Deli thing. You can watch both the interrogations. You can watch you can.

  about Tom Webster · at 39:05

• Did you drive that day? Is it the black one in the garage? And Richard tells this story about how when he used to work at when he was a manager, I think it was at CVS, they…

  about CVS · at 49:17

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Richard Allen — Person · Primary subject (suspect/convicted defendant) discussed by host · 13 mentions · first at 0:06
  The episode centers on analyzing Allen’s 2022 police interrogations related to the 2017 Delphi murders and his statements about being on the trails/bridge, clothing, vehicle, and subsequent searches/ballistics.
• Kathy Allen — Person · Family member referenced; key participant in second interrogation (as described) · 5 mentions · first at 2:49
  Presented as Richard Allen’s wife who encouraged him to contact police in 2017 and later was brought into a 2022 interrogation strategy to elicit a confession after ballistics evidence was found.
• Abby and Libby — Person · Victim referenced in case narrative; source of key evidence (phone video) · 3 mentions · first at 1:06
  Libby’s cell phone video/audio is described as capturing the suspect’s appearance and the phrase “Guys, down the hill,” which the host uses to contextualize why Allen became a focus.
• Abby — Person · Victim referenced in case narrative · 2 mentions · first at 1:15
  One of the two girls murdered in 2017; her presence in Libby’s phone video and the “down the hill” audio are key elements framing the interrogation analysis.
  I need to pull out my cell phone and get some footage of this weirdo that's been stalking us. So Abby and Libby made their way to an old rickety bridge they call the high…
• Tom Webster — Person · Referenced YouTube uploader/source of interrogation recordings · 2 mentions · first at 39:09
  Cited as the YouTuber whose channel hosts the interrogation videos and related materials (e.g., jail calls), which the host uses as primary source media for the episode.

Companies & orgs

• CVS — Company · Employer · 1 mention · first at 24:04
  Richard Allen's former workplace, mentioned in the context of his background.
• Wal-Mart — Company · Employer · 1 mention · first at 24:04
  Richard Allen's former workplace, mentioned in the context of his background.

Places & events

• Deli — Place · Setting · 2 mentions · first at 6:50
  The location where the murders of Abby and Libby took place, central to the case discussed in the podcast.
  Folks, welcome back. So, get a load of this. A month or two ago, the Richard Allen interrogations, the guy that was convicted for the 2017 Deli murders, were uploaded to YouTube for the first time. Pretty interesting stuff. There's.
• October 13, 2022 — Event · Key date · 1 mention · first at 29:43
  The date of the first interrogation of Richard Allen, marking a significant moment in the case.
• Indiana — Place · Setting · 2 mentions · first at 0:53
  The state where Deli is located, providing geographical context to the case.
  Old Richard Allen to all of a sudden be sitting in an interrogation room five and a half years after the two young girls were found murdered off the hiking trail in Deli, Indiana. So sit back settle.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:04 Folks, welcome back. So, get a load of this. A month or two ago, the Richard Allen interrogations, the guy that was convicted for the 2017 Deli murders, were uploaded to YouTube for the first time. Pretty interesting stuff. There's two of them done two weeks apart in October of 2022. And so spread out over a couple episodes, we're gonna go through them in order to understand, especially the first one, the one we're going to talk about today. I gotta set it up by telling you the truly insane one for the book story that's come out on what led old Richard Allen to all of a sudden be sitting in an interrogation room five and a half years after the two young girls were found murdered off the hiking trail in Deli, Indiana. So sit back settle in. Here we go.

1:03 So, like I said, it's 2017. Two young girls, Abby and Libby, are found murdered off a hiking trail in Deli. On Libbyy's cell phone, there's a 40se secondond video where you can tell Abby and Libby were creeped out enough by a weirdo following them on the hiking trail that Libby thought, you know what? I need to pull out my cell phone and get some footage of this weirdo that's been stalking us. So Abby and Libby made their way to an old rickety bridge they call the high bridge and made their way across. The weirdo following them made his way to the start of the bridge and made his way started to make his way across towards them. At that point, Libby took out her cell phone, like I said, hit record and you get a couple seconds of the guy walking on the bridge towards them. Most importantly, you get to see his body type and what he's wearing. He makes his way towards them.

2:03 Once he gets close, he walks out of frame of Libbyy's video, but she's still rolling. And so, even though he's not in the video, you get to hear audio of him saying, "Guys, down the hill." And Abby and Libby were found murdered down the hill the next day. A day or two after they were found, local law enforcement put out a statement. I don't know if it was on TV or on the radio or both, but they put out a statement. Anybody that was on the hiking trails that day, we would love to talk to you. We need all the help we can get. Like I said, if you were out on the trails that day, please reach out. We need to talk. Across town, Richard Allen's wife, Kathy Allen, hears that statement. I don't know if she was making breakfast and saw it on the TV or was driving to work and heard it on the radio, but she heard the statement. If there was anyone on the hiking trails that day, please reach out. We would

3:05 love to talk. A light bulb went off in her head. Boom. Hey, my husband Richard had said he was out on the trails that day. So, when he gets home from work, I'm going to tell him, "Hey, they you were on the trails that day. They want to talk. Maybe you could help." Maybe in one of my in one of the most interesting parts of both of these interrogations comes in the second boiler kicked on. Let me close this door real quick. So, probably the most interesting part of either of these ter interrogations comes in the second one. So, now I'm getting way ahead of myself, but I think this is important enough to talk about early. So, they do the first interrogation, the one I'm talking about today, just Richard's there. In between the two, there's two weeks. They search the Allen's household and find ballistic evidence that links Richard to the scene. So once they do the search and they have the ballistic evidence, two

4:08 weeks after the first interrogation, they bring both Richard and Kathy back down to the station, put them in separate rooms and tell them separately about the new found ballistics evidence that links Richard to the scene, hoping that Richard will hear that and say, "All right, I'm caught." and confess. That doesn't happen. They're running into a brick wall trying to get a confession from Richard. And so they try the commonly used strategy in interrogations of, you know what, we're running into a brick wall. Let's put a family member in the room with them and see what happens.

4:50 They do it all the time. And so they put Kathy in the room with Richard. She's half crying going, "They have ballistic evidence to your gun. How do they have that? And it makes things way more complicated for Richard because now if he's lying, he's not just lying to some cop. Who cares? He's lying to his wife, someone that knows him. And he's got to keep the story straight that he told police and the story straight that he told his wife. Plus, he's being videotaped and he knows they're watching in the other room. So, all of a sudden, it gets a lot more complicated. And probably the most interesting moment of either interrogation is his wife says something like, "And you had said you weren't on the bridge that day, so I told them you weren't, but they said you told them you were, so sorry, I told them that you weren't." And you see Richard's face go circumlex and he goes, "No, I said that I" and he paused

5:56 cuz he knows he's caught. And then he just goes, "I love you, baby. You know you're in trouble with your spouse when you don't even try to explain your side or come up with a lie, but instead resort to a single pathetic I love you baby. My I used it the other night. My wife came in and goes, "Did you buy the Flownese nasal spray like you said you were going to?" I was like, "Damn it. I love you, baby. But it's definitely a needler moment. Why would you leave out that you were on the infamous bridge on the fateful day? Even if you didn't do it, that's an insane thing to happen. The day that the two young girls were found murdered off the bridge, I was on the bridge at the same pretty much the same time. How nuts is that? And so to leave that out when he told his wife five and a half years before, yeah, I was out there, but you know, I was not on on the bridge. It's not like I was like right there. So to

7:10 leave that out is something. But all right, so we're going to go way way back now. So couple days after the girls were found, law enforcement puts out the statement. We'd love to talk to anyone. Kathy Allen hears that when her husband, Richard Allen, who had told her, "I was out on the trails that day." When he gets home from work, she says, "Richard, I I heard this the thing on the radio or something that they want to talk to anybody that was out on the trails that day. You should reach out. Maybe you could help."

7:44 And I'm sure Richard was thinking, "Damn it. Yeah, I should. Definitely should." She probably shouldn't have told her, but Richard a day or two after that goes down to the sheriff's office and talks to somebody. Hey, I was I heard the statement that you want to talk to anybody that was out there that could maybe help you guys solve this thing. I was out there. And whoever he talked to said, "Okay, let me get your name and number and someone will contact you and you can give a statement." A day or two after that, someone contacts him. Richard was driving, running errands. He was driving downtown, he said. So, he's talking in the car to him, and the person from the law enforcement office, I think, made a very bad mistake by saying, "All right, we need to chat. You said you were down there. Do you want to come down to the station and do it here, or I could meet you somewhere?"

8:45 And Richard goes, "Well, I'm running errands. I'm going somewhere. Do you want to meet in this parking lot?" And the person he's talking to from law enforcement says, "Yep, that sounds all right. I'll meet you in the parking lot." Something that I've been thinking about, because this is just a few days, I would say less than a week after the girls were found. It'd be interesting to know exactly how widely circulated within the law enforcement office that video from Libbyy's cell phone because it's possible that it took a little bit to pull it off the the phone and then for to circulate. Who knows who had seen it and how many times they had seen it by the time that they were talking to Richard. But it's the same body shape, right? It's not like one the guy in the video is a tall skinny guy and Richard's a shorter rounder guy. It matches. If you look at Richard, he's almost a perfect circle from elbow across his

9:50 shoulders to the other elbow. It doesn't go up shoulders down. It's almost a exact perfect half circle from elbow over the shoulders to elbow. That's the bridge, the guy in the the weirdo in the bridge guy from the from Libbyy's cell phone video. And also that's and so I don't know if the guy that met Richard out in the parking lot had seen that video or had seen it enough to go, you know what, it's the exact same body type. And then when they asked, "So what were you wearing that day?" Richard, I think from the very beginning, but at least five and a half years later when he was doing the first interrogation, he admitted to wearing the exact same thing that day is the guy in the bridge video. But anyway, like I said, I think it's a huge mistake. Here you have a guy. You're looking for a male that's short and round that was wearing jeans and a work coat and a hat. That's who you're looking for. Here you have a guy

10:56 admitting I was there. I was on the bridge and I was wearing blue jeans and a work coat. So at the very least it should have been okay. We have to find a guy that was there. That's the first hurdle to solve this thing. We have to find a male with this body type wearing this that was there. And here is a guy saying that. So, at the very least, that should have been enough in my opinion. All right, we got to bring this guy down to the station, do a proper questioning where it's filmed so we can watch it again later. Because with these interrogations, it's so live in the moment that in my opinion, the best strategy is to ask the questions and then sit back and shut up and let them talk. let them act the way that they're going to act.

11:56 Not try to crack the code in real time while you're sitting there. Just get them on camera doing it and then analyze it later. But anyway, in my opinion, a really bad mistake was made by Yeah, we'll just do a little, you know, we'll just do a low pressure statement in this parking lot. Casual. Keep it casual. I'll take your information in the parking lot. We'll go from there. So, he meets him in the parking lot. Richard gives his statement. The guy that took that statement, the way I understand it, there weren't cameras in the courtroom, which I think was a very stupid mistake by the judge. The judge kind of flipped out in one of the first um I think it was the first pre-trial hearing. So, right when things were kicking off, the the the story had gripped the nation for years. All of a sudden, it's the first pre-trial hearing. Oh my god, here we go. And someone in the press either showed

12:59 something that the judge didn't want to be shown or reported on something that he didn't want reported on. And the judge said, "That's it. No cameras in the courtroom. That's it." And so nobody got to see well I guess local um journalists and stuff but for the the most people in the public no one got to see the trial. But if I understand it right that guy that took that initial statement way back when with Richard Allen. I think he testified that after he took the statement from Richard Allen he went straight to a parking lot of a fire station.

13:42 got his report, I guess, I don't know, finished writing it out or got it ready to turn in and then went to the law enforcement office, turned it in, and somewhere someone and somewhere after he turned it in accidentally, another mindbogling mistake by the local law enforcement. After that statement was turned in, it was mistakenly checked off that Richard Allen was cleared, that he was good, that he was looked into. And so here you have a guy admitting he was there. You need someone that was there. You need someone that is short and round. And you need someone that says they're wearing or at least footage of someone that was wearing what the guy the guys down the hill guy was wearing. And so here you have that person. And for it to be mistakenly marked off is cleared. We looked into that guy. No need to look into him anymore is pretty tough mistake for whoever made that. He's like, "You kind of blew it

14:54 there pal. Not don't mean to be mean, but you totally blew it." But anyway, so he's marked off as cleared. The case goes cold, and years and years go by. I actually saw one of the parents of one of the girls and law enforcement speak in two years after in 2019 in New Orleans. It's kind of weird. I haven't It's the only case I've ever heard like the parents talk about it or law enforcement live. I was in the room and so I felt some bizarre connection to this one the whole time. So years and years go by. There's theories. There's leads.

15:42 They talk to people about it. A lot of conspiracy type stuff comes up. There's a lot of misinformation that was coming out with this one. Like for example, All right, so check out this He's got 376,000 subscribers. He posted this video two years ago. It almost has 60,000 views. He titles it Richard Allen walking in Deli, Indiana. The problem is it's not Richard. And this Jonathan dude that runs this channel, he knows that. But because this video gets views and draws people to his channel, he leaves it up even though it's totally wrong and steers people in the wrong direction.

16:30 All of the comments on this video are, "Dude, this isn't Richard." Including my comment from two years ago. This isn't Richard Allen. You know that. Keeping this video up because it gets views is beyond pathetic. You're a sad man, Jonathan. But all the comments, look, this isn't Richard Allen. That's not Richard Allen. That's not him. And this dude just leaves it up knowing it's total misinformation. What a loser. And so the whole thing goes cold for years. Five and a half years go by after the girls were found. And the story that I've got is a volunteer goes in and goes all the way back to the beginning. That's another a little bit if that's true. That's another embarrassing piece of information. So the local law enforcement was just blowing it at every turn and then a volunteer comes in and goes from the very beginning is going through stuff and notices, hey, wait a second.

17:34 this Richard guy was cleared, but there doesn't seem to be any reason why he was cleared. They look into it and they figure out, "Oh my god, it was a mistake that he was cleared. We've been for years trying to find a guy that meets this description in the area and here he is." Not only that, he admitted to being there. How was he marked as cleared? This is crazy. But there's it's never too late to make things right. And so they go to Richard Allen's house 5 and a half years later and say, "Hey, we'd like to talk to you." Richard Allen agrees. They bring him down to the station. Richard Allen says in this first one that he didn't tell his wife he was going down. He goes, "My wife doesn't even know I'm here." And so five and a half years after, after realizing the mistake, they go get him. They bring him down to the station, which should have happened years ago in a proper room that's being

18:46 recorded, the whole thing. It's October 13th, 2022. And now here we are at the beginning of the first interrogation. Whenever I do one of these, I like to talk about where the interrogators, where they're at, headsp space-wise, strategywise, and where the person being interrogated, Richard, where they're at headspacewise, and what they're trying to accomplish strategy-wise. And so for the interrogators, this is possibly one of the most simple, straightforward, barely even interrogations that you'll see. And why that's the case is this is to them like, holy crap, we we've been trying to find a guy that fit the description that was there the whole he's he's checking off all the boxes.

19:46 And so if you like you go back to the Russell is it Williams? Yeah the Russ the underwear guy Russell Williams the be if that's one of the best interrogations and the reason is the only interrogation strategy that I think should be used is we would like to mark you off. We're going through everybody and marking them off. And once we mark you off and eliminate you, then you can be done with this whole thing, you'll never hear from us again. It really sucks for you until you're marked off. So, we're looking to mark you off. And until then, we got to keep digging and try to find something that allows us to exclude you from the possible suspects.

20:38 all the other strategies. Your hands been caught in the cookie jar or you're you're gonna tell the truth because you're a trutht teller. Or when an interrogator thinks they're a real cowboy from a movie going. Listen, I've been doing this for 20 years and I'm one of the best. Any of those strategies go nowhere. If if I was like a teacher of interrogations, you just got to say, "Hey, listen. You want to be done with this. You don't want to be sitting here. We don't want to be sitting here talking to you either. We want to move on. We want to catch the person that did it."

21:16 So, we have to go through and try to find something that excludes you from the possibility that you did this. And so, they have that going for them in this interrogation. What they say at the start of it is we went all the way back to the beginning and we just want to talk to everybody again. I would have been totally honest with Richard and I would have flat out told them. They were probably embarrassed, but I would have actually told them if I was doing it, get this. So, you talked to the cop in the in the parking lot.

21:51 Remember that? Well, he went to the fire department parking lot, got your statement all put together, brought it into our office, and you were mistakenly checked off as cleared, even though you weren't. And so, we apologize. I know it's been years, but as far as murders go, five and a half years isn't the, you know, isn't all that long. It's definitely the case is cold, but colder cases get solved all the time. So, Richard, I know it's intrusive. I know it's a bummer to be here. I know it's sucks, but we have to figure out how to check you off the list because it didn't happen back then. And until then, this is going to be a intrusive, horrible part of your life until we can do that. But they don't do that. They say, "Listen, we're going all the way back to the beginning." Which is pretty much the same thing.

22:50 But really, all they're doing, all they want for this first interrogation is they want to talk about some background stuff, you know, your career, where you worked, that type of stuff, just to get some base information. Also, it's nice to see the person being interrogated talk about stuff they don't have to lie about. So then you can compare it to when the when the questions get real, you can see, oh, all of a sudden they're rambling like a making no sense, not talking about the actual questions. When five minutes ago when they were talking about their work history, it was totally coherent. No random stupid details that no one would ever care about. Huh. Oh, that's kind of interesting. So, for the first 15 minutes, they're talking to him about just background information and then right about the 15 minute mark, they say, "All right, tell us about that day." And you can feel the tension in

23:54 the room switch because all of a sudden the law enforcement officers, the people watching on the camera in the other room, all of a sudden it's going from all right, he's talking about his career. He worked at Walmart. He worked at CVS. And then all of a sudden it's all right. Here's the guy that was there was same body type that was cleared mistakenly. Here he finally is talking about that day. And you can tell everybody is really listening. But like I said, this is barely even interrogation. All they want to ask him is what did you do that day? Where did you park when you got to the hiking trails? Once you were out on the trails, what route did you take? And what did you do? What car did you drive down there? What clothes were you wearing?

24:46 And what shoes were you wearing? So, think about it. That could have been the fastest, easiest questioning of all time. They had maps all over the table. Where did you park when you were there? Uh, I parked right in this parking lot right there. Okay, great. When once you were out on the trails, where did you go? Well, from where I parked, I walked all the way to the high bridge. I looked down in the water to see some fish. I like fishing. I walked back. I sat on the bench right there and then just walked back to my car and drove off. All right. What car did you drive? The black one in the garage. All right. What clothes did you wear? Jeans and a work coat. What shoes did you wear? Uh, work boots. that it could have been a 5 to 10 minute, but it wasn't. They ask him, "Where'd you park?" And he he goes on and on about where parking lots that used to be there that weren't there now, where you could

25:45 park, but it was frowned upon, where he and his wife would park when they go. It was a lot of, "Yeah, we would normally park over here." And it just goes on and on and it's a rambly incoherent. He really it what it comes off is you know those walking tours that you can book like when you go to a new town where everybody stands around the tour guide in a half circle and they explain something. He proved himself. He could be He knows the history of all the parking options in the in the area. He knows the roads, the the back roads that go from one parking spot to the other, but he doesn't remember where he parked. And that's how kind of how all of these go. It's like I got a long rambly story that ends with me going.

26:43 Anyway, long story short, none of that's relevant, but I don't really remember and that's not really realistic, but I'm getting slightly ahead of myself. So, all the interrogators are looking to do on this one is ask where'd you park when you out on the trails, where'd you go, what car did you drive, what clothes did you wear, and what shoes did you wear? And then after they want to do that first and then after he answers those questions, they get it on camera so they can look at it and uh analyze it for later. Then after that they want to ask him okay so now that you've made those answers we would like to search your phone your house and your car in order to try to and imagine this is five and a half years after.

27:36 So they're doing what they should have done a half a decade ago. It's a little bit like, all right, you're searching the car five and a half years later, but it's never too late. A speck of blood still could possibly be somewhere. And so, they got to do it. But, so they get his answers on all of those, which we'll talk about. And then after that, they ask him, and the strategy, you can tell when they're asking him now, like, "Hey, we'd like to search your phone and we'd like to search your house and we'd like to search your car." But they don't come right out and say all three of those because that's a lot like Jesus, you you want to take my phone, rip my house to shreds, and do the car. This is sounding pretty bad. So, they slowplay it a little bit. At first, they go, "Yeah, so we'd like to look at your phone when you can pull the data off a phone. We can try to confirm some of these. Do you

28:31 have the phone that you had back then?" And he's like, "Maybe it's in a closet or something." And uh they're going, "Well, we'd like to search that phone, too." And at first, Rich Richard goes, "All right, yeah, you can, you know, you can search my phone." You can tell he's not thrilled about it, which is fair, but they go, "Okay." And then once he's agreed to do the phone, they said, "We'd actually like to do your house, too, and confir, you know, look at that." And he's like, "Nah, I'm not going to have anybody um search my house. if you want to do that, you can get warrant warrants, which I I think is also fair. And then he and then they also add in also your car. And by that point, he's starting to really kind of clam up and say, "No, I don't want to do this." And uh but anyway, so the strategy is very simple from the interrogators. Ask them, you know, what'd you do that day? Where'd you

29:27 park? Car, clothes, shoes. Once they have that and then ask him if they can search those place those places. Hopefully he says yes. Doesn't really matter. If he does, they're getting the warrants I think as that the first interrogation on October 13, 2022 is happening. I think they're getting the search warrants or maybe they were working on them already because that's actually the same day that they go and search his house. So even though they ask in permission, we would really it would really be good um step in order to mark you off and actually clear you so you don't have to worry about this anymore if you let us look at your phone and look at your look in your house and look in your car. And at first Richard agrees with the phone, but then by the time they say, "Okay, I got to read you this. You are agreeing to let us search your phone. Can you sign this?" as he goes to sign it and he stops and goes,

30:28 "You know what? Let me talk to my wife. She's going to be affected by this as much as I am. And you know, I'm not an angel of a person. I don't want you seeing all the websites that I go to. And so, I'm just going to hold off get letting you guys look at my phone." So, he agreed with the phone, didn't agree with the house or the car, but then by the time he was signing his phone away, he even pulled back on that one. But the reason this is such a simple, straightforward interrogation by the police is there's essentially no pressure because all you want is to ask him about that boiler. All of us you all you want to do is ask him about that day. There's no pressure yet because you don't want him to clam up and ask for a lawyer. And so all you're doing is okay. Okay. Even if something sounds a little weird or not believable, there's no pressure yet. And then you want to ask him to search. And

31:33 again, you want him to be working with law enforcement. So there's no point to come in all bad cop and get loud and get accusatory yet. And so they stay nice even when something isn't believable or you can tell he's rambling like a total They don't call him on it. They listen and then once he gets to the end, they start with a cheery disposition onto the next thing. So they ask him, "Okay, we're done with talking about what you did that day. Can we search your phone, your house, and your car?" He says, "No." And um and then at that point is when they take a break, then they bring in the picture, the still shot of the bridge guy. So I think a lot of law enforcement maybe would have had that sitting on the table from the very beginning. That was definitely a choice. Should we put the still of the bridge guy that looks very close to like him wearing the same clothes that he's admitted to wearing?

32:39 Should we have it sitting there? Should we show it to him at the very beginning? is this you? But they chose, let's slow play the bridge guy. We'll act like we're all on the same team, which I think in a way they did think that we're all on the same team working towards getting you marked off cleared so you don't have to deal with that anymore. But as they're asking Richard to search the phone and then the house and the car, he starts to say, "Hey, well, I, you know, this seems like it took a bit of a turn and this I'm not going to be someone's fall guy." And just because a puzzle piece is close to fitting doesn't mean it fits. And I here I thought I was down here just to have a conversation and talk and maybe try to help. And now I feel like I'm being interrogated. And he almost has this like hurt tone in his voice like this. I feel like I, you know, I thought we were just here to talk and for me to ramble on about

33:38 something that has nothing to do with it. And now I feel like I've been I've been being interrogated. But even after he denies the searches and as it does heat up towards the very end of the first one, pretty much no pressure is put on because they they want to before any pressure, any like real interrogating, the way you think of it happens, they want to get all those searches done and see what evidence they get from that. So that's why it's straightforward from the law enforcement. All right, we're going to ask him where he parked, ask him if we can search his car, and then show him the picture at the very end and say, "Is this you? We need to figure off, is this you?" So, essentially saying, "Richard, we don't have anything that can mark you off because we're looking for a guy that was there. That's you. We're looking for a guy that's uh short and round. That's you. We're looking for a guy that was

34:37 wearing jeans and a work coat. That's you." And so until we can find something where it's like, oh, that's not you. You're the guy in this. So, let's talk about that's the headsp space and the strategy that law enforcement's coming in. Let's talk about Richard's headspace and uh strategy that he's coming in with. So he has he had talked about that him and his wife in this interrogation he talked about that they watch dine every week and he's not naive to any about how this goes. So think about that. Doing what Richard Allen was convicted of doing the unthinkable to these two girls. What really dine when you boil it down is a case like this that it doesn't seem like it's going to be solved and then something happens. Law enforcement catches a break and voila, it gets solved. End of the episode. And so imagine as the years go on, Richard and his wife are sitting on the couch and just he's watching these

35:43 dine stories where somebody something clicks, some little thing that law enforcement get a new lead and the person gets caught. It's got to be a interesting feeling watching those episodes with, you know, what he did and the life that he ended up living. And so when cops showed up at his place five and a half years later asking, "You want to come down and talk to us?" He was probably extremely curious what the hell happened. Did the little thing that's going to flip this whole thing on its head happen? I'd really like to know what that is.

36:28 And I'd also just want to do my best to go down there, pretend that I'm just here to talk. I'm here to help. I am here to tell everything that I saw that day, and hopefully help you guys solve it. I'm on your side. The problem with going down there with that mindset, which is when people make the mistake to sit down in the interrogation room and do it, they think they can pull that off. You know what? I'm just going to pretend like I'm here to help. I am just telling everything that I saw and maybe something will help them. But since he's actually not doing that, and since what he's really doing is with every fiber of his soul trying not to talk about the actual things that would help, and instead he ends up rambling about nothing that actually would help, it becomes a impossible task to pretend, I'm just here to help. when actually what you're really doing is trying to act like you had nothing to do with

37:38 it. But the way that it ends up coming out is is just telling completely irrelevant story after story, which if you're the law enforcement, a chunk of information, all you've been doing is thinking about this for years, something that actually would help would be like, whoa, whoa, stop right there. I think that's actually worth something. Let's talk about that. But since there's never any moments where it's like, "Yeah that's worthless. Yeah, that story is worthless. That's totally why would we even need to hear that?" At the beginning, I think it feels realistic. All right, I'll just go in there and pretend that I'm there to help. But when really you're just trying to send them in the other direction, so it becomes frustrating. It sounds stupid. it comes off as rambly and so on. So, he's going in with the mindset, I'm just here to help.

38:38 They're going in with the mindset is we just want to get him on record with those few questions. Ask him if we can search whether he says yes or no. We're going to do it anyway. And then we're going to show him the picture. And so, here we go. Richard is in there. They set him down. I feel like Oh, yeah. One thing I want to talk before we actually start talking about the interrogation is if you look on the interrogation, I'll link it in the description. It's from an a a YouTuber's account, Tom Webster, which in my opinion, he became the best uh YouTube channel for this Deli, the whole Deli thing. You can watch both the interrogations. You can watch uh you can listen to the jail house phone calls way later after he was after Richard was arrested where he confesses to his wife and his mom, but they're all right there on Tom Webster's YouTube channel. kind of funny. I clicked on Tom's YouTube channel and scrolled

39:38 back. Before he became like the Deli murder channel, he posted obscure Mariah Carey interviews. That's a funny YouTube arc. Yeah, I used to post obscure Mariah Carey interviews and then I became the guy for all of the deli murder footage and everything, which I I miss that about YouTube. It used to be so random. Channels would be one episode about this and then a total and then they kind of wanted creators like whatever you do, whatever does well, just do that. But anyway, so I'll link the the full interrogation in the description of this video from Tom's channel. So Richard, it's got to be surreal. He's sitting in the interrogation chair 5 and a half years after the fateful day. They tell him, you know what, we're going all the way back to the beginning. So they do the background stuff. Talks about his career. doesn't seem to have any trouble staying on topic, rambling, putting in irrelevant details when he's talking

40:51 about that. And then they say, "All right, tell us about that day." And like I said earlier, all of a sudden there's tension. It's quiet. You can tell everybody's listening with all ears. And Richard says that he was hanging out at his mom's place. He said, "I think she had hip surgery. I don't you know he kind of doesn't remember which all of a sudden things that you it's like did your mom have hip surgery or not. This is one of the most outrageous memorable days of your life whether you did it or you didn't all of a sudden have this I don't know I don't really remember this or that. It starts to be a little bit un unbelievable. Also it feels like Richard is playing up the charm trying to be funny. Uh Wendy Adlesen does th does this too. I think it's a natural reaction. You're trying to win him over.

41:47 You're trying to make the law enforcement feel there's no way Richard could do this. He's such a funny guy. So when they're telling him at the very beginning, all right, you're not under arrest. You have you can leave at any time. Richard makes the joke like, "Well, I'm leaving right now." Like he makes a dash for the door and they all laugh. But he makes a bunch of these kind of jokes and there are some people that just kind of don't really know when it's appropriate to make certain jokes and when not. So I guess he could fall into that category. But what it really comes off as to me is he's turning on the charm, trying to be funny, trying to come off as the guy that would never in a million years do this. So he's making the trying to make the charming jokes.

42:32 And so he says, "I was at my mom's place with my sisters. Mom and the sisters are going to lunch. I didn't want to go to lunch, so I went back to my place. It was a nice day, so I threw on a jacket and headed to the hiking trails." And uh yeah, then I went home to watch the stock market. Okay, where did you park? And again, this is where it starts to be like, damn, this is the guy. I didn't have a really strong opinion on his guilt or innocence because I didn't watch I wasn't able to watch the trial. And I knew that there was a very strong, it was very divided.

43:16 There was a lot of people that think he didn't do it, wrongly convicted, innocent guy in jail. And there's a lot of people that think this is definitely the guy. And I didn't I didn't have a strong opinion either direction. I think that's why I found this interrogation fascinating because as I clicked on the interrogation for the first time, never had watched it. I was thinking in my head kind of pretending like, all right, let's say that the government contacted me and said the trial was messed up. Something happened. It's all going to come down to you. if you watch this interrogation and think he's not guilty, we'll let him out of prison. And if you do think he's guilty, he's going to stay in prison. That was like the kind of just like a fun makebelieve thing that I had in my head and I was neutral. I I wasn't like I had picked a side three years before and really dug my heels in because once you do pick a side and you

44:14 go all in on a side, then anything new that comes up, a person that goes all in on a side, they use all of their intelligence and and their cleverness to just make that fit in the side that they went all in on. So, I didn't have that. So, it was kind of a fun interrogation to watch in the sense of I'm not married to either side and I'm gonna watch it and truly, you know, make my decision. And having a guy wrongfully imprisoned is one of the most horrible uh situations ever. And after watching this first interrogation and the second one with when him when he's talking with his wife specifically, but there are moments in this one, I couldn't let him out.

45:08 which as bad as it as scary as it would be the thought of somebody being wrongfully in prison for the rest of their life. Even with how scary that thought is, I still with his answers on this one, he does the thing. There's a lot of people in the comments of the interrogation that think, "Oh, he's innocent. Look at him. He's not nervous." which that's the mistake that going in there and not seeming nervous is actually doable. What's not doable is going in there and avoiding talking about what you're there to talk about and instead rambling on about other stuff and not having not getting into that where you're just talking about total nonsense that has nothing to do with it. It's essentially impossible to be in there for a long time trying to pull it off like it wasn't you and not end up with these word salads. That's like, damn, this is the guy. It would be impossible if he was just an innocent guy that

46:12 happened to be there. He wouldn't have some of these answers. Okay. So, he said he, you know, hanging out with mom and sister, headed out to the trails, and then they said, "Okay, where'd you park?" And it's the long rambly guided tour of the history of the parking in the area, and after going on and on, long story short, well, anywh who the point I'm trying to make, he doesn't remember. So, let's keep track. So the first one is where'd you park? Goes on and on about the whole history and then he goes h it's either there or there. And so it's not like he drove somewhere he'd never been before and had and wasn't familiar with the area and it's like you know what actually I don't know where I parked. It was actually less realistic that he proved how knowledgeable he was about the parking situation only to then be like you know I don't really remember. And also the refusal to talk about that day starts to

47:18 be really noticeable when he's talking about where he parks. It's where we would park when we would go down there and we would when we would get down there. He's talking about him and his wife how they go to the trails. We would take this route and we would do this and I found myself wanting law enforcement to go. That's great. Let's talk about this day. you this day don't care about where your wife and you would park any other day. This is the day we're talking about, but they're they're not trying to put any pressure on him because they just want Richard to be working with them. They don't want him to ask for a lawyer. They don't want to feel the pre they don't want him to feel too much pressure. And so they just kind of let him go. So where'd you park? Long rambly irrelevant answer only to get to doesn't really remember. It was either there or there. I don't really remember.

48:14 Okay. So then once you're on the trails, Richard, where did you go once you were out there? And his speech pattern is significantly different when he was talking about his background info. And you can tell he's being really careful. And you can tell it's not a fun experience to talk about this point. And so he said that he parked walked up to the bridge, walked to the first trussle, but didn't walk across it. He's all about I walked to the first trussle, looked down at the fishies because he likes to fish. And then walked to a bench and then walked away. Okay, so that one goes pretty smooth. They don't. There's nothing really to push back on that one. And then this is where it's like rambling like a murderer. Maybe the worst one of the worst rambles of the whole thing. They say extremely simple question. What car did you drive that day? Is it the black one in the garage? And Richard tells

49:22 this story about how when he used to work at when he was a manager, I think it was at CVS, they would get their deliveries early in the morning at like 3:00, 4 in the morning. And so he would have to drive there brutally early. And so he's driving there one morning extremely tired. Remember, they just said, "What car did you drive? Was it the black one?" And he's talking in the story house. Extremely tired. I ended up getting in a car accident. I hit this car. I woke up when the airbag went off. They had to call the police. And then Richard even realized, "What am I even how is this even relevant?" And all of a sudden goes, "Anyway, long story short, that's when I bought the other car." And so now we have two cars and we switch off a lot. You know, if I have to drive a long distance, I'll take that one that's more reliable. And if we sometimes I'll take the other one and my wife will take this

50:19 one and it goes on and on and and then it gets to I don't really I don't remember which one it is. So you don't remember where you park, but you're a genius historian about the history of parking in the area. You can't remember what car you drove, which isn't realistic. It's one of the most probably insane memorable days of his whole life. You're going to remember where you park. You're going to remember what car you drove. Doesn't remember exactly what car he drove, but thought it'd be relevant to tell the whole history of how they make decisions on which cars they drive in the family and also about his totally irrelevant car accident that he got into. Then they move on to clothes. describes exactly that he wore the clothes that day is the guy in the bridge video, which I would assume the reason he asked to be. He can't say, you know, I was wearing red pants and a sombrero with the dangly

51:22 balls that day. He's got to be careful, I think, because if they end up having him on camera and he's lying, that doesn't look good. So, he makes the decision, I was wearing jeans and a work jacket. And they say, are you wearing a hat, too? And he's like, "Yeah, I always keep a hat in my" And so he describes the exact thing that the guy was wearing. All right. Then they ask him if he then they're done with the questions, but that took, you know, 45 minutes. It could to could have taken seven minutes. So then they get to the can we search your your phone, your car. We gota we have to confirm some of this. And as that goes, Richard gets I think he planned once it turns a little bit and they start treating me like the suspect. His strategy I think you can tell is say I'm not going to be someone's fall guy. And let's see. I'm not going to be someone's fall guy. And if just because a puzzle piece is close to

52:33 fitting, we're not going to force it to fit. But that doesn't quite really work because they're not coming in with the accusatory, it was you, we know it was you. They're just going, we got to mark you off. And nothing that you said again allows us to do that. So, I know it's rough, but if we could just confirm some of this stuff with your phone and search the car and and and really put a, you know, a done deal and clear you. And that's when Richard starts to get a little bit, well, I feel like this is a has taken a turn here. I thought I was just down here talking and trying to help. Now, I feel like I'm the lead guy.

53:19 I feel like I'm being interrogated. And they're going, "No, no, no. We just we want to be able to mark you off. And I felt like I wished the law enforcement would have just laid it down a little bit clearer. You don't have to come at him with energy, but you could just make it a little bit clearer. Richard, you were there. You don't remember where you parked. You don't remember what car you drove. You were wearing the exact same thing as the guy in the picture. I know you don't want to be here and I know you don't want to have anything to do with it, but until then, we're gonna be here. So, please, let's just try to figure this out.

54:01 And Richard is getting more fed up with the whole thing. And um and they say, "All right, well, can can we take a break?" And Richard's not thrilled about that, but he says, "Yeah." And so they take a short break and they come in and they say, "Okay, Richard, we want to show you kind of what we have on this." And they put down a still shot of the bridge guy footage taken five and a half years ago earlier with Libbyy's phone. And that section, it's like the last 15 minutes becomes, "Is this you?" That's the question that we need to answer because all of the other information that you've given along with the rambly irrelevant information, all the information that you've given doesn't allow us to mark you off. Here we have a picture of the guy and it looks like you. They don't say that, but it does. So, that doesn't mark him off. And they say, "Is this you?" That's the question that we need

55:10 to a ask or that's what we need to figure out. And here is Richard's answer. And this is one of those that if it wasn't him and he was innocent, it in my opinion, it would be impossible to spit out this answer. It it just it's I think it's impossible to have an answer like this if you're innocent. And that's why doing interrogations, it would be a terrible idea because it doesn't matter how good you are at not being nervous or how smooth you are with your lies or how cool you can play it. being in there for an hour. All of a sudden, you're going to get a question and all of the pressure that's built up and he's trying to snake his way out of it, it gets these random bursts of speech that you just can't you can't avoid and you end up and this is probably the answer where I the first time I was listening to it thought like, damn, this is the guy. It really is him. That's, you know, that's that's wild. But

56:18 anyway, so they said, "Is this you?" And first he nervously laughs, which he goes, "If this was taken with the girl's phone, it is absolutely. I mean, it's not me, but I have never met these girls before. So even if I thought it looked like me, I uh if it was taken with the girl's phone, there's no way it could be. I've never met them. I've never seen them. And he starts this thing where he says it a couple times where he goes, "I've never met him before. I've never seen him before." And it's almost like in a cartoon or an old crime movie where it's like, "It wasn't me. I swear it wasn't me. I've never met him. I've never seen him." And you don't have to. No one is saying that you've met him before. That's not We're asking.

57:11 We're trying to figure out are you the guy that stalked them and killed them. You can stalk someone and someone can take a picture of you doing it without you have meeting them before. And so the whole and his voice goes up three octaves. I've never met him. I've never seen him. And he's really pressed on his heels. And like I said, that was the one answer. It's like, damn, it was him. And then but before that they had said we had actually we've already talked to your wa wife and your daughter and your wife said you've been really in like this past you know five years going through bad depression and even one night you put a gun in your mouth. So as he's struggling with that answer before the part two where he goes if it was taken with the girl's phone it is absolutely he couldn't say it. Then he pauses and goes, "I mean, it's not me, but I've never met these girls before.

58:06 I've never seen them." And then he as he's he pulls out of that because I think he even realized this is not going good. I'm with my voice up two octaves. I'm frantically going, "I've never met him. I've never seen him." Then he switches over and goes, "And as far as my psychological issues go, I've been dealing with depression long before this. It's not like I went out and killed a bunch of girls or killed a couple girls and then I've been dealing with depression since that. And one thing that comes up in a bunch of these or in a few times in these interrogations is he says he he really struggles with anxiety and depression. And most of it comes from him perceiving what people think about him.

58:56 So if he perceives that someone is thinking something about him from his job or his friend circle or for his neighborhood, I guess it drives him crazy and it really affects him and and that's the main source of his anxiety and depression is thinking somebody's thinking something about him that's not true. And as a 50 year old man, that doesn't seem very common to me. Usually, as people get into their 40s and their 50s, you care way less. I don't care what anyone thinks about me. You know, I'm at this part my life. I know who I am. I'm okay with that person. If someone wants to think something about me, let them think it. And for him to be this nervous person and just have it really wreck him all the time, what if someone thinks something about me? What? What if they think something about me? What if they think that about me? I think that that maybe could stem from he knows what he's capable of. Like

59:56 what he did to those girls is unbelievable. I mean, unthinkable. and to be able to do that, to be the type of person that can do that and to actually do it. He knows that in his soul, but he's pretending in life that there's no way I'm Richard from CVS. I'm the father. I'm the husband. I'm Richard. And so he knows deep down what he is and what he's capable of, but he's obviously pretending like he's not that person. And it maybe it it caused him to have this like what are you thinking about me? Did they think that about me? And so when most people that have a clear conscious as they get older in life and say you want to think something about me, think it. I don't care. With Richard, every little possible thought about him that someone else might have just drives him to put a gun in his mouth, to cry for help. It really affects him. And in the second interrogation when his wife is in there,

1:01:07 he even says like, you know, I care what people think about me. And just an overall, I think they don't get the they don't get a confession in either of the interrogations. And I think one of the reasons for that is listening to Richard's both interrogations and the jailhouse phone calls. I have the I ended up believing I think that his worst fear in life more than losing his getting caught and losing his freedom. I think losing his freedom is probably third on his worst nightmares. I think before that is letting his daughter and his wife down. One being, oh my gosh, dad and husband Richard is the guy that did that the capable of doing the unthinkable. That's really sad and disappointing. So disappointing them on that level, but also disappointing them on the level as as his wife is getting older now, he can't support her. He's gone. The whole thing of like, you ruined our entire life. Now I'm going to

1:02:17 be getting old alone with no support from you just because you did that. Are you kidding me? You ruined our whole life and flushed it down the drain. And I don't have my husband that I was counting on to grow old with me and support me because you did something that stupid. I think that what is what comes off as Richard's biggest fears in life or worst nightmares. And so it's an uphill battle for the law enforcement to get a confession because once he confesses all of that happens. If and also too if you do something like that to kids your life is in danger once you're in prison.

1:03:00 Prisoners don't like what he did to those girls. they they don't like that. So there's that. He does go on to um confess in jail house phone calls, but I think I'm going to talk about that on the last one. And so, anyway, Richard's getting heated. It's the last 15 minutes. He's going, "As far as my psychological goes, I had anxiety and depression long before you know this happened and I don't appreciate you talking to my wife and kids and where's the trust in that and I thought I was just here to try to help you guys and I'm not going to be someone's fall guy." And then he gets into the what I've deemed as the this is stupid. He says that a number of times.

1:03:46 This is stupid. You know what? This is stupid. either arrest me or let me go. And the interrogators, they don't they just want it to keep going. They want him to keep talking. So, the most pressure they put on him is just like, what were you there? What were you there to do? You know, all of that you were there. We know you were there. You were wearing the same thing. And you know, Richard does the same old thing is I you know, it wasn't me. You're not going to make me believe it's me. I I you know, this is stupid.

1:04:21 And let me see if I got anything else just as this one is coming to an end. Um, one little like tiny bit of pressure that they put on that I thought was interesting is they say, "Well, were you meeting them there to set them up with somebody else? Were you just a part of something bigger?" And what's interesting about that question is all of a sudden answering that question, Richard was confident. It felt like he was telling the truth. He was like, "Yeah, good luck finding anything that points to that." See how succinct that was. And his voice didn't go up two octaves. But whenever they're talking about it was just him, he's the bridge guy. He did it alone. That's when all of a sudden, I've never met him before.

1:05:04 I've never seen him. The voice goes up. He starts rambling. He starts and so I thought that was pretty interesting. And he at this point towards the very end has had it. He's had enough. He wants to be done with it. He feels betrayed that they went and talked to his wife that they heard about his depression and him doing a cry for help fake suicide attempt. And it's almost comical because the interrogators are just trying to bore down. Keep the friendly voice. All right. Well, if we could just ask a couple more questions.

1:05:39 And Richard Allen's going, "It's stupid. This is just stupid." And I wanted the law enforcement to say, "Richard, these two young girls are brutally murdered off the hiking trail that you were there. You're the same body type as the guy in the video. You sound most people that listen to the audio of the guys down the hill, you sound exactly like them. You were wearing exactly the same clothes. You can't remember where you park, what car that you drove. This is a lot of things, but it's not stupid. And just slam the folder and walk out of the room. But they don't want to do that. They don't want they want him just to work with them as long as possible so they keep the friendly tone. we could just ask a couple more questions and then finally Richard goes, "Am I free to leave or not?" And the guy goes, "You've always been free to leave." And Richard stands up and goes, "You're an asshole." And walks out of

1:06:37 the room. That same day that that all happened, they searched the house and they found a bullet that had been cycled out of his gun, which apparently the science on that, the people that think Richard is innocent and wrongly convicted and didn't do it, I guess they don't believe that that is proper science. But apparently even if a gun isn't or a bullet isn't fired through the gun and if you just chamber the round and then uh like it and that one that was in the round gets cycled through. Apparently that leaves a very distinct marking each gun. It's like fingerprints. A very unique distinct marking on the bullet. So it must have been that Richard had his gun was pointing it at the girls maybe for effect or for fear.

1:07:32 cocked it, cycled around out of the chamber. It landed on the ground that they they had found a bullet at the crime scene. It had been in evidence for five and a half years. They searched his house, found the gun that matched that um did the, you know, ballistics. It matched being cycled through his specific gun. And then they had another which they deemed the keepsake bullet which was he had it up in his like little keepsake knickknacks type portion of his another bullet from that same like box of ammunition they called it the keepsake bullet. So, they found those two things and then two weeks later, like I said earlier, they bring Richard Allen and his wife Kathy Allen back in and that's the second interrogation. So, that'll be episode two of this whole thing. This one got long, so I'm going to cut it off there. I love you all. See you next time. Why? Sting Y. Shamida.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Richard Allen - Interrogation Analysis"?

Richard Allen (Guest).

What is "Richard Allen - Interrogation Analysis" about?

The analysis focuses on the interrogations of Richard Allen, who was convicted for the 2017 murders of two young girls in Delphi, Indiana. It examines the chilling circumstances surrounding the case, including a crucial 40-second video recorded by one of the victims that captured a suspect and audio of him giving directives before their tragic deaths.

What is mentioned in this TRUE CRIME Loser episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Richard Allen, Deli, Kathy Allen, Abby and Libby, Abby, October 13, 2022. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Richard Allen - Interrogation Analysis"?

The episode runs 1 h 9 min; the transcript is about 11,132 words in 72 timestamped sections.

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