What Socialism Actually Means | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation

What this episode is about

The discussion explores the definition of socialism, contrasting its theoretical underpinnings—rooted in workers owning the means of production—with its practical implications, often characterized by authoritarian control and negative outcomes in historical contexts. While emphasizing the importance of voluntary cooperation, the debate acknowledges the existence of successful worker cooperatives and critiques the coercive nature of state-mandated socialism.

Key takeaways

• Socialism is theory's utopia, but in practice, it often feeds a dictatorial minority.
• Worker cooperatives? Great, as long as they’re not forced at gunpoint—voluntary is key.
• Marx nailed the alienation of workers, but missed that human nature may not be 'naturally good.'
• Tax cuts for cooperatives? Sure—let's celebrate voluntary choice over state coercion.
• Humans can find purpose in capitalism too; it’s bad applications, not the system, that alienate.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Charlie Kirk (Guest) · 11 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 3:00 – 6:00: Zapatistas, NAFTA
2. 9:00 – 12:00: Fidel Castro
3. 12:00 – 15:00: Thomas Sankara

Notable quotes from "What Socialism Actually Means | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation"

• That's not what Rouso believed. So, so Rouso was the foundational baseline for marks. Right. So, yeah. Rouso. So Rouso was the one who argued that it's human beings that are naturally good and we don't have a.

  about Jean-Jacques Rousseau · at 4:45

• The Zapatistas in Mexico in 1991 when NAFTA went into effect. How long did that last?

  about Zapatistas · at 5:39

• Let's take hold on guys hold on let's take what let's just I'm just curious and so how on earth did Fidel Castro taking over Cuba have anything to do with US intervention there…

  about Fidel Castro · at 11:43

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Jean-Jacques Rousseau — Person · Philosopher referenced in socialism discussion · 1 mention
  His ideas are foundational to socialist theory, particularly regarding human nature and societal structures.
• Fidel Castro — Person · Referenced political leader (case example) · 1 mention · first at 11:47
  Raised as a concrete historical example in the argument over whether socialist/communist outcomes (e.g., Cuba) are intrinsic to the ideology or driven by external factors like U.S. intervention and sanctions.
• Thomas Sankara — Person · Referenced political leader (counterexample) · 1 mention · first at 12:20
  Mentioned as an example of a self-identified socialist leader (Burkina Faso) presented as comparatively positive prior to his assassination, in contrast to other authoritarian examples.
  Thomas Sankara. Bkina Faso. Before he was assassinated, he was actually like How about Mugab? He wasn't a communist.

Places & events

• Zapatistas — Place · Case study · 1 mention · first at 5:39
  Presented as a successful example of socialist theory in practice.
• NAFTA — Event · Historical context · 1 mention · first at 5:39
  Mentioned in relation to the Zapatistas' emergence as a response to economic policies.
  The Zapatistas in Mexico in 1991 when NAFTA went into effect. How long did that last?

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 What is your definition of socialism? Well, in the theoretical, the abstract, or the practical,

0:06 uh, take your pick. So, socialism as written by Marks is when the workers own the means of production.

0:11 Exactly. In the actual practical, it's when a small group of very powerful, pernicious people are able to control the rest of the population under the guise of helping the many, when in reality, it helps the few. And you get dictatorship, murder, and slaughter. And the revolution never actually comes. Okay. It ends in a hundred million people dead over the last 100 years.

0:33 What about American companies that function as worker cooperatives which are effectively socialism in practice?

0:39 That that that that is partially the some of the tenants of Marks. Of course it is. Like Publix grocery stores in Florida.

0:45 Okay. So you're in favor of worker cooperatives then. Yeah. If it's done voluntarily. That's the key. Yeah. Exactly. Voluntary. For example, in a church, if you go to a church and everyone says, "We're going to go share this meal." That's a voluntary cooperation. But socialism is not hinge on volunteerism. It's using a gun. It's by force you must be part of this. By force you must give us your money. By force you're going to be part of our cooperative. Volunteerism is something we all support. It's when you start to use the heavy hand of the state that we start to object it.

1:16 I agree. I'm not here to defend Cuba, China, the USSR or any of that or Vietnam or

1:22 no Laos or Cambodia. So or Rhdesia or Zimbabwe. So basically if we can agree that voluntary worker ownership of the means production

1:33 if they so choose okay it can work it also can fall apart there's there's plenty of instances where it does because the problem is this is that the incentive structure sometimes for innovation with voluntary cooperatives is not always very strong or robust but yes in a market you're allowed for example I have no problem with the Amish living the way they do in Pennsylvania.

1:52 Neither do I. Yes. However, I do have a problem saying we're going to force you to live like the Amish. That's where we disagree.

1:58 I I No, I agree with Well, I'm saying but a where socialism has played out over the last 100 years.

2:03 Yes. Some people have interpreted socialism. But so for you as a true socialist, you should go get a bunch of your buddies and friends, go out into the countryside and go live as socialist, see how long you last. Would you would you be in favor of t tax cuts and loopholes to people who want to start a worker cooperative and exist as a worker cooperative in a market?

2:24 I mean, I would give tax cuts for all people. But if they want to do that voluntarily in a market economy, knock yourself out.

2:30 Okay. So, we've agreed. I think so. But, but here's the point. Question. Will you though as a socialist go out and live your value system? Will you go and, you know, say, "Hey, I'm not going to own any stuff. 10 friends of I are gonna go we're going to grow our own

2:45 there's a difference between personal property and private property when it comes to socialist theory

2:50 okay so but personal property is things like your toothbrush your clothes I would even go so far as to say your house the

2:57 can I have two houses it depends it depends it's a that's a that's a so if I have a second house you might take a very complicated question that I necessarily don't really have an answer for you

3:09 complicated if you earned it you get it not complicated that's our view right you get what you earn. And and the problem with socialism is that it is against my favorite word in the English language, earn. We believe that you should be able to receive what you earn.

3:22 I agree with you as a socialist. I think you should be able to keep what you earn.

3:26 Mark Marx Marxist Markx's critique was the hyperwealthy stealing the wages of pe of hardworking people who are trying to earn. Let me tell you what Markx got right and then let me tell you where I think he was wrong because I've actually read and studied Markx. Markx is correct that market forces can alienate people from their humanity. That he was very right about that. And you walk into like your average corporation sometimes like the most soulless place you ever walk into. What he was wrong about though was the state of human nature that we believe humanity we as conservatives and Christians were generally not so good as human beings.

4:04 Markx believed humans were really good and that we're being polluted and contaminated by the societal forces around us. Racism, misogyn misogyny, capitalism, all these forces are c we have to get we have to strip down all of these external forces and we'll be able to live as you know as in wonderful harmony in the hills and

4:22 I would agree with that. Okay. And so that's where we think that's insane that human beings are naturally good. Secondly, the idea

4:30 wait Mark's saying that what he wasn't saying that people are naturally good once you remove all these things. The fact that racism, sexism, all these other isms exist is proof of the fact that humans yes are do have a tendency towards evil bad behavior.

4:45 That's not what Rouso believed. So, so Rouso was the foundational baseline for marks. Right. So,

4:51 yeah. Rouso. So Rouso was the one who argued that it's human beings that are naturally good and we don't have a proclivity towards this stuff and what we will agree is that there is a problem with widespread alienation of human beings and market forces. It's a big problem.

5:08 Yeah. That and they are alienated by by the by capital not but not definitionally. Some people find a lot of purpose in their work though. That's where I disagree with Markx is that some companies are able to create robust environments where people are happy and they're they're uh connected. It's not it's not a fault of the system. It's a fault of some applications that happen in the system.

5:28 Okay. Then we just disagree on our interpretations of Marx. So I I I guess the the final question though is you as a socialist can you point to a single time where this theory worked?

5:39 The Zapatistas in Mexico in 1991 when NAFTA went into effect. How long did that last?

5:44 To this very day, it is it is still a region today. And they don't own anything.

5:51 They collectively own their their property. Okay. I have to look at that example. I mean, I would I would point to the

5:58 the Zapatistas. Rojava in Syria is an autonomous zone that has existed autonomously in spite of the Syrian civil war that's that's have been going on there. And again, I would point to American and intern and other uh businesses in other countries that function as worker cooperatives. That's socialism at work. Granted, they are in a capitalist capitalist. They are in a capitalist market.

6:24 How do you reconcile the Soviet Union, Chinese Communist Party, Pulp Pot? How do you reconcile the failures of socialism last hundred years?

6:34 I just disagree with their interpretation of socialism. I don't think that you should wield authoritarian power in order to uh force people into socialism.

6:43 Here's what we believe and we'll close on this. Every time it will be tried at scale, a very bad person will assume control under the guise of socialism and become a permanent dictator.

6:52 I disagree with the at scale. I would argue that our li systems are also examples of socialism. You literally come in I can literally walk into Haj's library over here, check out a book for free, and they trust me to come bring it back.

7:06 It's not free. Someone paid for that book. It's called the taxpayers, so it's not free. The building has to be built. Someone has to pay for the plumbing and pay for the electricity, pay for the heating. Someone has to pay for the workers. Number two, if there is a disagreement in the library and you steal the book, what happens? You don't check out in the right process. You owe you have an overdue fine. So, there's a cost to it.

7:25 You see, the library is actually a very capitalist system because if you don't rewind the old VHS,

7:30 librarians who say that over overdue fines actually don't even work and they don't even provide really good incentive. Nevertheless, they still exist. But the point if you would say the library is a a a hallmark of socialism, the librarian is still in charge. I want to get to the next question. Thank you very much. Appreciate for your time. Thank you.

7:46 Um I'm a UVM student. I was uh talking to you before. I'm sure you noticed that. Um but I'm going to try to keep this

7:52 heckling. Yes. Yeah. Um but I'm just going to hope you respond in a way that's not so just conservative talking point and more of a conversation way. Hopefully.

8:04 Maybe. Sure. Okay. So, before there was a question about like Native American communities and treaties and stuff like that and you were talking about how historically Native Americans have been kind of like screwed over by the US government and stuff like that. Don't you think that that history will impact how Native Americans live today and make it more difficult to succeed in America? Don't you think that would influence that?

8:31 Well, I suppose a question I'll ask back at you. We've made tremendous accommodations such as sovereignty of Native American land, entire department of the federal government dedicated just solely to that. Do you recognize that there's been great efforts to try to accommodate that?

8:47 I recognize those efforts, but obviously they haven't worked because So why haven't they worked? because it's either not enough or the way that we're doing it is incor like we need to treat it more as an equity thing instead of just saying oh it's a culture per like instead of blaming it on people's like individual working and like make like change it society and help them in a way that actually matters.

9:10 So you do know that there's universal healthcare at Native American reservations right?

9:14 Yeah. But it's not very good because they don't have access to because it's socialistic. No, they they have universal healthcare in plenty of European countries and it works just fine. The re the flaws with the Native American

9:32 So I'm curious, how did Vermont's experiment universal healthcare go? I'm I'm not from Vermont, so I don't know these things.

9:41 I didn't hear your response. Say that again. I'm not from Vermont, so I don't know these things. I moved here like two months ago.

9:45 Yeah. I still I still can't hear what you said. Say it to you're wearing a mask. It's kind of hard. Can you say that again?

9:49 I moved here like two months ago. I'm not from Vermont, so I don't know these things.

9:52 Right. So Vermont tried singlepayer. They had to abolish it. It was a total disaster. So look, I think the best way that to help Native American communities is to help all people through empowerment and education. Instead, we tried a heavy-handed government approach of intervention of the Bureau of Native American Affairs of Universal Healthcare. And if you want to go see a socialist dystopia, go to a Native American reservation. I I maybe you have, maybe you worked on Native American reservations before. I've been to plenty. They're they're depressing.

10:17 They're government addicted unfortunately in more ways than one. They're very very corrupt. And this is something I want to ask you. And would you selfidentify as a socialist? Is that fair to say?

10:27 Yeah. Okay. Is I'm not a liberal. I'm I'm more social. Socialist and liberal are different words. And I think conservatives confuse that a lot. They are completely different things.

10:36 Okay. Okay. No, we don't. So I I'm I'm just curious as someone who would say you're a socialist, what would be a country you think works well that's a socialist country?

10:48 There are no socialist countries right now. There are no so has there ever been a socialist country

10:55 truly socialist? No. Okay. So let me So you your view your worldview is on something that's never existed and currently doesn't exist. Is it too is it a is it a bad thing to be like pro-change?

11:11 Okay, so just just so we're clear. Um yeah, the type of change you're advocating is horrifying. Um but so it's never existed doesn't. And so I would say Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, formerly Vietnam, the Soviet Union, those were those are not and were not socialist countries. those country the disastrous effects in those countries were directly contributed by US intervention

11:38 there was a there were multiple coups done by the CIA in those countries let let's take hold on guys hold on let's take what let's just I'm just curious and so how on earth did Fidel Castro taking over Cuba have anything to do with US intervention

11:55 there was plenty of like sanctions like economically Cuba was completely cut off there No, they tried to assassinate him plenty of times. There were so many things.

12:04 The fact that they're communist. Yeah, we had what to do with that? We didn't have anything to do with that. But we after they after a communist regime took over, they had a

12:15 Yeah. So, let me ask you. So, so you're So, first of all, Zimbabwe was not communist.

12:20 Bkina Faso. Thomas Sankara. Say that again. Thomas Sankara. Bkina Faso. Before he was assassinated, he was actually like

12:28 How about Mugab? He wasn't a communist. How about Joseph Stalin? He wasn't a communist.

12:33 How about Ma Ma Tong? He wasn't a communist. Yeah. Paul Pot. Plenty of terrible people have called themselves plenty of different names. North Korea.

12:42 Oh, so you get to be the judge. Got it. Right. So, I just want to make sure we complete the point. You believe in something that doesn't exist, has never existed, and even though the people that call themselves the things that you believe, you say they weren't really that, which is the most important point. Socialism is always judged against an impossible utopia. And they judge markets against a reality. And here's the truth of the matter that markets, which you enjoy comfortably in Western society, is the most proven affluent creating machine in human history. And I would just challenge you to do one thing. Please stop believing in a utopian nightmare and start looking at things around you that are good, that are true, that are beautiful, that work, and are consistent with the natural law.

13:23 you you'll be a much happier person if you do that. You said socialism is non-American. So, what do you think is pro-American?

13:31 Well, let's define what socialism is, right? Socialis socialism is the government confiscation of private property. Um, it tends to be the rule of the few, not the many, even though they profess to see to say it's the rule of the many. Um but America the American let's just say economic tradition is private property rights markets with proper restraint entrepreneurship the ability to flourish trade um create new products. Um socialism disincentivizes almost all those things. Socialism is built largely on envy and greed. And hilariously the people that push for socialism the rank and file they don't realize that socialism actually just creates an oligarchy. doesn't actually create a strong middle class what they alleged you know to want.

14:12 So do you believe in taxes? Uh a certain actually ideally 10% across the board. Yeah.

14:16 Okay. So you believe in the confiscation of people's private property? Not I mean at some point it depends on if it's private property income or if it's necessary to fund government services.

14:25 That's still confiscation with a gun through police if you don't I fully acknowledge a moderate form of something I hate in order to fund a government police firefighters EMT is necessary.

14:34 But that's still government confiscating property which you said was socialism.

14:37 Yes. But have you ever called the cops? Uh, no. I don't believe I don't I don't like me.

14:41 Okay. You gone to hospital? No. Okay. Well, one day when you go to hospital or you, you know, use a social service.

14:46 I say you define socialism as a confiscation of private property and you're saying that you pay taxes, but is a confiscation. Let me go further. Let me go for the unreasonable confiscation of private property, the elimination of private property altogether. You see, this is very sloppy intellectual thinking that just because we want a police force, a border patrol, and we want clean streets, all of a sudden we become a socialist.

15:05 But those are still socialist. Every form of government is socialism. Would you acknowledge that?

15:09 No, I don't. Okay. Then when does socialism begin and when does it end? And I'm saying you're saying you're saying some level it's not like an entrance into anti-American. I'm saying socialism is a part of America.

15:21 So you want to know when socialism begins and when it ends. When you leave the free state of Florida

15:27 and you enter the unfree state of New York. What's the tax rate in Florida then?

15:30 Zero. The income tax in Florida is zero. But you still have to pay federal taxes. So if you have to pay taxes at all, it sounds like Florida's a socialist state.

15:38 But yeah, but so are you trying to say America's currently socialist? Yes. Okay, I would agree. We're going more in that direction. So

15:43 Okay. But then wait, you just said that America is socialist, but you said Florida's not socialist. So for part of America, that doesn't make sense.

15:49 Oh, but the federal project right now is more socialist than it is free market. So to make even more clear, the closer you get towards the government owning a majority of your labor and your goods, the further and further closer you get to socialism. California is that. Now, I would love for the federal government to get rid of FICA tax, to get rid of, you know, the excess income tax. I've been clear. I think 10% across the board, fine. We need a military. You might not agree. We need a police force. We need a border patrol. We need basic social services that are a safety net, not a hammock, but I do not believe in this over-the-top type taxation. If you want to talk about other types of taxation that everyone here is paying, it's inflation.

16:23 What's your thoughts on universal healthcare? I'm against universal healthcare. Yeah. Um, well, I mean, look at the many, many trials in universal healthcare we have in this country. Waiting lines, waiting lists. Universal health care sounds good, but it lowers the accessibility. It increases weight lines. It increases costs. Um, we're pro we're and by the way, we're already close to a universal healthcare system right now. Um, you can just walk into an emergency room and you will get care. It's not good care, but you will get care.

16:48 And Medicaid is a form of universal healthcare. Okay. Medicaid, which is healthcare for the poor. Go ahead. Then what are your thoughts on people who don't have a lot of money who break their arm or have to go to the hospital? Theos ambulance costs a ton of money just to be sent to the hospital one night in a bed is insane amount of money. So what are your thoughts on people? What are they going to do? What do people like who are underrepresented, don't have money, have worked their asses off every single day and yet they have to give up their houses, give up loans just so they can get basic necessities. Isn't that like what universal healthcare is aimed to like mitigate?

17:18 It is aimed right. It is a but it doesn't mitigate. Here's my agreement with the advocates universal healthcare. If you go to a hospital, they'll never give you a menu of prices. You have no idea what anything costs. Do you agree? There's no transparency. If you go to Chipotle, they'll tell you how many calories are in your burrito and exactly how much thing cost. It is secrecy of pricing. These private public partnerships that raise prices endlessly that have destroyed lives. Medical debt is a huge problem in this country. Um and so yeah, the the solution was not, you know, trying to have people compulsory have to take on health insurance through universal healthcare.

17:51 It's a lot deeper and more sophisticated than that. Then can you make the argument again that the reason that we have such bad public healthare is because private healthcare has such a stronghold on society and American society.

18:01 Well, we part of American healthcare is awful. Part of it is great. The problem is mo most people can't access the great parts. So what is great about American healthcare? We have the most innovations. We have the most sophisticated s life- saving surgery. If you have a heart attack right now and you have to go, you know, go into the cat room here locally, they'll probably save your life, right? The standard of care here. That's not the case, by the way, in like Southeast and Asian countries. Like, you might live, you might not. Okay. The problem is cost and accessibility. Um, and so the question is, do you want to sacrifice the quality of our care for accessibility? And if the answer is yes, then be ready to wait five and a half

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "What Socialism Actually Means | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation"?

Charlie Kirk (Guest).

What is "What Socialism Actually Means | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation" about?

The discussion explores the definition of socialism, contrasting its theoretical underpinnings—rooted in workers owning the means of production—with its practical implications, often characterized by authoritarian control and negative outcomes in historical contexts. While emphasizing the importance of voluntary cooperation, the debate acknowledges the existence of successful worker cooperatives…

What is mentioned in this Turning Point USA episode?

5 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Zapatistas, Fidel Castro, Thomas Sankara, NAFTA. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "What Socialism Actually Means | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation"?

The episode runs 19 min; the transcript is about 3,868 words in 86 timestamped sections.

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