When Does Life Begin? Charlie Kirk Debates Abortion and Moral Responsibility

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on the contentious topic of when life begins, particularly in the context of abortion and moral responsibility. Key points include the viability of a fetus outside the womb, comparisons between the dependency of a fetus and individuals in vegetative states, and the ethical implications surrounding late-term abortions, emphasizing that they often occur in circumstances where the fetus is no longer viable or poses a threat to the mother's life.

Key takeaways

• Viability doesn't equate morality; a 17-week fetus could thrive, unlike a long-term patient in a coma.
• Abortion advocates often overlook safer delivery options, sidelining both mother and child in medical decision-making.
• Late-term abortions are less common than assumed; many women seek them due to dire circumstances.
• C-sections can be quicker than abortions, yet many women aren't educated on this life-saving alternative.
• If fetuses deserve universal rights, why can't they be claimed on taxes? Perhaps time for policy rethink!

Who speaks in this episode?

• Charlie Kirk (Guest) · 9 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 3:00: Columbia General
2. 6:00 – 9:00: Luke
3. 12:00 – 15:00: Columbia General

Notable quotes from "When Does Life Begin? Charlie Kirk Debates Abortion and Moral Responsibility"

• An abortion. But no, no, no, no, no. C-section's way quicker. Like you could go right now to Columbia General and you could get a C-section in like 15 minutes. they're primed…

  about Columbia General · at 2:39

• So, in the book of Luke, it says that John the Baptist leapt in the womb when it came near Jesus Christ. It's the word brephos for baby.

  about Luke · at 6:45

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

Books & papers

• Luke — Book · 1 mention · first at 6:45

Places & events

• Columbia General — Place · 2 mentions · first at 2:41

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 But I want to start off this conversation by saying I am a Christian. I go to church every Sunday. I believe in God. I've seen his work. And I don't want that to necessarily be a basis for the discussion. Um so we can both agree that fetus h a fetus has viability outside of the womb at 20 weeks. We've seen it happen. We have not seen a fetus be viable outside of the womb before 20 weeks. Right. Okay. So getting into that, we can go back to someone who is brain dead or um in a long-term vegetative state, right? They cannot live without the life mechanisms that are helping them breathe, like their ventilators, if they're on diialysis, if they're in um kidney failure, stuff like that right?

0:40 So, could you make the same argument that a fetus that is living inside of a mother's womb cannot live outside relating it to the life sustaining um like stuff that is keeping a person alive if they're in a coma or something,

0:56 right? Not to rehash the prior argument, but you understand the moral difference. a 17week old allowed to continue to develop will become self-independent where an individual in a vegetative state will almost assuredly not. They're two separate things. Secondly, it goes back to the question define viability. There are babies right now that are 27 weeks in the NICU, which is the neonatal intensive care unit that have all sorts of compartments all around them. Is it morally justified to pull the plug on a baby in NICU?

1:31 So most women, so like going to abortion, most women are not getting late late term abortions if it is something that they want. People who are getting late term abortions are people where the fetus is either like already dead, so getting like kind of a miscarriage.

1:45 So that's not an abortion. Just so we're clear, the the removal of a carcass is not an abortion. But yeah,

1:50 an instance where a woman is getting an abortion because if she has this baby, she will die.

1:55 Yeah. But why why would they not be counseledled to get a C-section if someone is going to die from giving birth? Whether that

2:03 it's not C-section is not the traditional vaginal birth. It's way safer and quicker than an abortion.

2:07 It might be safer, but there are still might be safer. You disagree. So then what shouldn't we counsel women to get the safer option that that

2:14 there is still a chance that they're going to die though? Well, there's there's a chance they die if they get an abortion, too. Abortion is actually the deadlier of all the options for a woman in a crisis post 20week situation, but the abortionists make more money and it's easier to just terminate the life. For example, if you have a uterine wall break at 28 weeks, serious problem, you have an option. Go get an abortion or go get a C-section. Which one is actually quicker?

2:39 An abortion. But no, no, no, no, no. C-section's way quicker. Like you could go right now to Columbia General and you could get a C-section in like 15 minutes. they're primed for an abortion is actually like a 9-hour prep procedure. The point being is that you're talking about a very isolated set of cases. However, even with those isolated set of cases, we are led to believe that abortion will save the mother's life when there's an alternative cescareian section on the table that these moms are almost never told about.

3:07 So then the issue is educating women on their options. So here's my thing, which OBS should be doing, but they're not. If there is a woman who you like you said 27 weeks uterine wall breaks most likely that woman wants to have this baby. They have carried it to 27 weeks. They didn't get an early term abortion before the fetus was viable. They want to have this child. So if they aren't given this option, then what are they supposed to do?

3:30 You are not stuck if your pregnancy goes wrong in the 20 weeks. In fact, a C-section is safer for you and safer for the baby like 99.9% out of a 100 times when that terrible situation happens. The problem is that the OBGYn industry will present abortion as a much more viable option when it just isn't because also they don't even factor in the baby's life. It they it's like okay, it's just a disposable component here where our perspective and I know you might disagree. We should seek to save both lives, both the mother and the child, where the OBGYn, and this is how they're medically trained, is first and foremost the doctor for the mother and then the baby second. Does that make sense?

4:18 Yes. And I and I I can find middle ground here. I can agree with that. And because again, I don't think that any woman who's carrying to 27 28 weeks is wanting to have an abortion. So those options should be like educated and people should be given options. Fair enough. I agree.

4:35 Can we move to early term abortion a little bit? Sure. Okay. So, is there any instance whether anything like that where you would agree with an early term abortion?

4:45 Not a single instance. Correct. So, like a 13-year-old who was has no financial stability, can't even get a job because you can't get a job until 14, 15, 16 in the US, who cannot support that baby. If it was her father, then she has no support from her parents. What is she supposed to do in that situation?

5:04 You could put the baby up for adoption. But outside of going into the extreme specifics of your case, which does happen, it goes down to the fundamental question. Is it a baby that she is helping develop in her womb, or is it something else? If it's a baby, then you must have universal human rights applied to that baby definitionally.

5:25 Can you claim a fetus on your taxes? No, you can't. Can you claim you can claim a one-year-old? can claim a 9-month-old.

5:32 Actually, that's a great idea. We should actually have child support starting 9 months earlier. So,

5:37 you you won me over there. But if if your point is if your point is that our federal tax code reflects abortion laws, then

5:45 you've made the point. But I guess my question for you, when does life begin? I think that life begins um at birth. And I know you're going to disagree with me on there. Um but I also believe that like once the fetus is viable if if it if the birth happens at 20 weeks 21 weeks then that is a child but before that when it does not have like all of its functionality to be able to live outside the womb even in like the niku then it is not alive it's not

6:16 it's not babies in the niku are not alive they I said when they are able to I know but what's the moral difference though they have machines they have assistance

6:23 you cannot have a 15week old fetus and have it live outside of the womb. Bottom line, we don't have the technology to do that.

6:30 So, at one point, you were a fetus, right? Were you alive when you were a fetus?

6:34 No. Really? I don't believe that I was alive. I didn't have thought. Okay. So, I I I do want to go back to one component of your argument. You talked about that you are a Christian. So, in the book of Luke, it says that John the Baptist leapt in the womb when it came near Jesus Christ. It's the word brephos for baby.

6:57 Was that was John the Baptist and Jesus a baby or a fetus in the womb? I think he was a fetus.

7:04 So Jesus was not alive in the womb. I think that he had his like functionality, but he wouldn't have been able to live outside the womb.

7:10 How do you leap if you're not alive? Babies move all the time. It's instinct. It's not like it's the same way. It's not like something that they're thinking about doing,

7:20 right? So, my six-month-old has a lot of different instincts. When you get a newborn baby, it will wean for its mother's breast. It's not thinking, it's instinct. When you poke a baby in the stomach, it will react. So, a baby cannot hunt or gather for itself until it's probably four years old. Therefore, it's dependent on the mother, dependent on the father. How is that any different than a baby in uterero that needs nutrients from the mother? Because it's the in uterero, right? The mother doesn't have a choice. Whatever they eat going to the baby. Whatever they drink going to the baby. All of that. And sure, they're able to give it up for adoption and then they won't have to worry about it. And our adoption, the system currently is a whole another issue. But sure, they are able to give up this baby for adoption and then they don't have to worry about it. But it's having the choice of if you want to

8:12 nourish that child, go through all of the pain and struggle and everything that comes with being pregnant.

8:18 So outside of would you say we should get rid of all abortions except except of and

8:25 I think um I'm not pro abortion. I am pro-choice. And ultimately it's not up to me if like if she was pregnant and wanted to get an abortion that shouldn't be my decision. And so I don't think it should be the government. So therefore,

8:38 but I'm not proabortion. I don't think voluntary late term abortion should be allowed.

8:42 I got it. Well, so let me ask you a question. Since you're pro-choice, should a mom be able to choose to abort her baby if she finds out she's having a girl and she wants a boy?

8:52 So you're pro-choice. I don't think that voluntary late term abortion should happen by the question.

8:58 So that's why I'm saying if that's the woman's choice, then that's the woman's choice. And a lot of times that's going to be a discussion. But the thing is, you're saying this, but people don't do that.

9:09 Oh, no. They do it all the time. In fact, they do it so much they had to pass a law where people would get genetics tests around 12 to 14 weeks. They would find out they were having a girl and the incident rate of abortion would spike. So, your view of basically developing a child is no different than like customizing a Ford Explorer. It's like, I like this characteristic, but not this characteristic. Do you think it should be legal if you find out your baby's having Down syndrome to terminate your baby?

9:38 No. But you said you're pro-choice. So you're not. So you you are getting in the way of a mother's decision. The mom doesn't want to go through the pain of raising a down syndrome kid. She doesn't want to pay for the down syndrome.

9:49 Personal beliefs, not the beliefs of what thing? No, no, no, but I'm saying legally. Should it be legal?

9:54 I think if the baby is and I have a I have a little brother with a lot of special needs. He lives off of oxygen. He's in a wheelchair. I have grown up around kids with special needs and so I understand that it is it is so hard for parents, for siblings, for grandparents to go through that if somebody doesn't think that they're in the financial stability because children with special needs are a lot of money and they don't get as much support from the government as they should for them. They're a lot of work. They're a lot of time. So if somebody doesn't

10:22 So knowing all that you're actually uniquely positioned to answer the question doesn't think that they are in the financial position to be able to give this child the best possible life that they could have if like they are poor if it was a thing of or and they don't have support from a partner. I do think that like in those instances I would agree more with giving up for adoption, but again the adoption like foster care adoption systems aren't built to support children with special needs. They aren't. It is so difficult for children with special needs to get out of the adoption system. And so in instances like that again I believe it's up to the mother's choice of what she wants to do.

11:03 H how is your view of up to the mother's choice any different than eugenics? I don't believe that you should abort based off of like my personal beliefs, right? Separate from

11:16 but your indifference, the lack of a law or you advocating for a law is you basically giving a tacit level of support of it cuz it does happen and it will happen. So we have laws that are a reflection of morality. We actually have a law where it's illegal to abort your baby based on Down syndrome. It's a law. You would you would support getting rid of that? Basically,

11:36 I wouldn't support getting rid of it if it's already in place. My thing is is when we have we had Roie Wade which were gave women reproductive freedom to have abortions especially if they were deemed medically necessary if it were in cases of and we moved back on those to get rid of them. We didn't have them and then we had them and then they were taken away.

11:55 Do you think an abortion is a tragedy? It depends on the person. If if if someone got and they probably are going to carry so much resentment toward this child and I'm not saying every case some women won't carry resentments towards this child but if you're carrying resentment towards this being due to how it came to be then

12:16 so then just murder it essentially. So somebody in this audience was conceived in Can you tell me who

12:25 was it you? No but I mean someone is can you tell me who? No. Do they have a big R on their head?

12:30 No. So wait, they're just the same type of human being that we are. So they're indistinguishable. So they get God-g granted human rights regardless of their method of conception.

12:39 But that's like, yes, sure, the child is going to be the same or whatever, but we don't know how they're going to end up being raised because again, the mother might not have the support. She might not have this. She might not be able to get them. I'm curious though, how is it morally justifiable from a Christian worldview to I would say murder, but you would say terminate a life even if you're not sure how their life is going to work out by by what moral biblical standard is that justifiable?

13:05 I think people should have their own right to choose. They have a different moral opinion.

13:10 What species is the fetus? I mean, if it is from a human, it's a human fetus. If it's from a dolphin, it's a dolphin fetus. But if it's a human fetus, then wouldn't it have human rights?

13:21 But then it but like we don't they're not they don't have a social security number. They don't have you're not able to claim them on your taxes until after they're born.

13:29 Again, if your argument is that the our US laws are reflective of abortion ethics, you you are correct. But I I suppose the question my I mean you do know a three-year-old doesn't have a driver's license either. I mean at some point we can get towards the documentation argument is a little insane,

13:45 but a fetus is still a human being worthy of human rights. And so when you say it's at birth, just understand like the the cruelty of that argument that babies that are 28, 29, 30 weeks hear the mother's voice, they move completely, heartbeats, their own DNA. And I suppose the question I would ask, if it isn't your DNA, why should it be your choice?

14:10 But what do you mean by that? It is your DNA. Well, no, it's not. A mother has her own separate DNA. Yes,

14:16 her baby has different DNA. So why should her DNA should be able to eliminate another set of DNA

14:21 because it is inside of her? Your location means nothing. Whether you're inside Udo or live in Columbia, South Carolina, you don't get more or less rights based on your location.

14:31 Okay. So then take the baby out and have it live in whatever if it can survive on its own.

14:34 I that's what the laws should say. Take the baby out the best we can and don't terminate it.

14:40 That's the proife. 3 weeks, right? Okay. Sure. I don't want to terminate my pregnancy, but we're going to take it out and try to give it the best leg. It's not going to survive.

14:47 Well, at three weeks, first of all, you have a moral right to allow that baby to grow. Which then goes back to my final point.

14:54 I disagree, but I think that's valid exceptions. How did the mother get pregnant in the 99% of the other time?

15:02 Sometimes it happens by accident. So, no. What do you mean by? It's not like catching the flu. What do you mean by accident?

15:08 Condom breaks, whatever. Like even if you're using protection, not using protection whatever.

15:13 You made a decision to have sex, right? Sure. You you don't have you don't have to have sex. It's not like eating or showering.

15:20 So therefore, we as prolifers believe you should take responsibility for your own actions and take responsibility for your own orgasms and not eliminate being smaller than you just because a mistake happened. Does that make sense?

15:32 That's probably where we're going to disagree here. So yeah, but again the the idea that you should be able to eliminate another human being because something happened that you don't like I find to be wrong. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "When Does Life Begin? Charlie Kirk Debates Abortion and Moral Responsibility"?

Charlie Kirk (Guest).

What is "When Does Life Begin? Charlie Kirk Debates Abortion and Moral Responsibility" about?

The discussion centers on the contentious topic of when life begins, particularly in the context of abortion and moral responsibility. Key points include the viability of a fetus outside the womb, comparisons between the dependency of a fetus and individuals in vegetative states, and the ethical implications surrounding late-term abortions, emphasizing that they often occur in circumstances…

What is mentioned in this Turning Point USA episode?

2 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Luke, Columbia General. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "When Does Life Begin? Charlie Kirk Debates Abortion and Moral Responsibility"?

The episode runs 16 min; the transcript is about 3,209 words in 67 timestamped sections.

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