Amanda’s Breakthrough: Finally Letting Go

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on the nuances between vacations and trips, particularly examining the tension some feel towards camping as a form of leisure. It also explores deeper themes such as the ethics of memoir writing and Amanda’s personal journey of letting go of control, revealing how these issues contribute to their overall well-being.

Key takeaways

• Camping: a test of survival or a family bonding exercise? Spoiler: it’s usually the former.
• Jesus may have made tents, but we’ve perfected the art of hotel room service—progress!
• Is writing a memoir arrogant? Only if you think the world doesn’t want to hear your story.
• Air conditioning and forks: evidence that humanity has, indeed, made 'greater works' after divine creation.
• Vacation vs. trip: one recharges the soul, the other recharges the character—and sometimes the wifi.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Glennon Doyle (Host) · 20 min speaking
• Abby Wambach (Host) · 15 min speaking
• Amanda (Guest) · 15 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 5:00 – 10:00: Untamed
2. 10:00 – 15:00: David Sedaris
3. 25:00 – 30:00: ZipRecruiter, Mill, Viori

Notable quotes from "Amanda’s Breakthrough: Finally Letting Go"

• Type people and one of the things that's said often is I mean I actually remember someone act a very famous cultural critic saying to me during an interview about Untamed, Do you ever think it's arrogant to write another book about.

  about Untamed · at 9:20

• And then underneath it was David Sedaris's 28,000th memoir out today.

  about David Sedaris · at 10:05

• But the dismissal of misogyny is at the center of it. Like I always think of the Audrey Lord quote like anything that I accept about myself cannot be used against me. And so…

  about Audre Lorde · at 23:39

• This year, I wanted one easy thing to make it all feel a little lighter, and that's Mill. Mill is a quiet, odorless food recycler that turns your holiday food scraps, the pie crusts, the veggie.

  about Mill · at 25:03

• An investment in your happiness. For our listeners, they are offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at vjori.com/hardth.

  about Viori · at 27:13

• Look no further with Zip Recruiter. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com.

  about ZipRecruiter · at 28:40

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Audre Lorde — Person · Referenced poet/thinker (quote used as framework) · 2 mentions
  Quoted to support the idea that self-acceptance and naming one’s story ‘defangs’ weaponization—reinforcing the defense of memoir and women speaking publicly.
• David Sedaris — Person · Referenced author (comparison point) · 2 mentions · first at 10:05
  Used as an example of how male memoirists are not dismissed the way women memoirists are; referenced in a newspaper comparison to Glennon Doyle.
• Virginia Woolf — Person · Referenced literary figure (interiority / gendered dismissal) · 2 mentions
  Cited as an example of how women’s focus on interior life has historically been feminized and dismissed, supporting the episode’s argument about devaluing women’s narratives.

Books & papers

• Untamed — Book · Primary recommendation · 2 mentions · first at 9:35
  Referenced as a memoir by Glennon Doyle, discussed in the context of writing about personal experiences and the human condition.

Sponsors

• Mill — Product · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 25:24
  Promoted as a food recycler that turns kitchen scraps into nutrient-rich grounds, making kitchen cleanup easier during the holidays.
• ZipRecruiter — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 28:21
  Promoted as a hiring platform that matches employers with qualified candidates quickly.
• Viori — Product · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 27:15
  Promoted as comfortable and versatile clothing, ideal for various activities from home to errands.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Hi, Pod Squad. Hi. It's just us today. Hi. This is one of those days where we just snuggle up on the couch in the on the metaphorical couch, which is so huge that it holds all of us. And

0:12 we take your questions and we just spiral around them together, which is kind of my idea of heaven. And so today we are talking about some really cool things like what's the difference between a vacation and a trip and why can't lesbians figure that out aka how Glennon used um a Bible story to get out of ever going camping. So that's the other way of talking about that.

0:42 It's a stretch. She she comes in with a stretch of Listen, if Christians know anything, it's how to use the Bible to get what we want.

0:53 Secondly, we've talked about, is it arrogant for a memoirist to write her story? Can't wait for you to hear that answer. And number three, we talked about Amanda's journey in letting go of some of control that has recently made her life difficult. And it is an amazing conversation.

1:20 You will not want to miss this episode, y'all. So good. All right, snuggle up. Let's get on the couch. Well, hello. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today's one of our favorite days on this show where we actually just get to sit with your questions, spiral around them with you, pretend we're all on a big couch, um, snuggling up, talking about life together. This is, I think, our sweet spot. The happiest place

1:57 for this. Well, the couch has always been the happiest place. That is our sweet spot. Hey, want to get some popcorn and go to the sweet spot? I do. Thank you for asking.

2:08 That's right. Today's the sweet spot. Let's hear from Let's hear from the Pod Squad. What do they want to talk about?

2:13 All right. Let me ask the first question. Can we talk more about vacations? Because every time my family suggests camping as a vacation, I feel like I'm being tricked. Is this actually a vacation or just characterbuilding family time that I have to endure?

2:40 Well, I've never been camping, so someone else will have to answer this. If that doesn't just activate some real relational issues.

2:50 Yep. That's basically what I want. Yeah. Yeah. You want to go camping, Abby? I want to go camping. I just think being in nature, there's just something important to to take away the modern-day conveniences to get back into our natural primal selves

3:08 to experience the world without the luxuries of life like a roof, running water. It It forces your brain to work in different ways. I I truly think that I'm right about this.

3:22 Okay. Do you go to the dentist and when they want to fill a cavity, are you like, you know what, forget the novacaane? I just I want to experience this

3:29 as my primal self. No, I'm not saying I want this in every waking part of my life.

3:35 Okay. Um I want this in some of the parts of my life so that I can then appreciate

3:42 the Novaane. The Novacane. Okay. Well, I mean, honestly, we were actually just having this conversation. Yeah. The other night, we were having initial chats about what Abby was asking me what I would want to do for my 50th birthday and whether I wanted to go on a trip and I felt like the conversation was going fine and I felt very loved and understood. And then Abby just said the word

4:07 tent. Okay. She said the word tent to me. Yes. I don't know in what context. She just said the word tent. Come on, babe. You and me under the stars, the breeze, marshmallows that are being roasted like on the sticks. Camping is nature. God made nature. Glennon, you love God. So,

4:40 I do love God. Yeah. And you're right that God did make nature. Um, that feels true.

4:52 Um, I'm just thinking, you know what? I'm thinking right now of this story in the Bible

4:56 now that you have brought God into this, Abby Wombok. And I'm thinking of uh of a story that happened um right before Jesus died.

5:08 Okay. Jesus gathered all of his disciples around him and he said to them, "I have come to you and I have done miraculous works."

5:24 That is true. And now I have to leave and go back to heaven. Right? But don't worry, he said to his disciples, because you will stay here and you will do far greater works than I have ever done.

5:43 Right? Okay. That's what Jesus said. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, here's what I think that Jesus meant by that. I think Jesus meant Yes. I God made the breeze.

5:58 I made the breeze. Yeah. Okay. which is important. But you my disciples, you will make air conditioning

6:10 and that is a far greater work. What I think he meant, yes, I made the stars, but you, my disciples, will make overhead lighting and tiny, tiny book lights,

6:22 far greater work. I think he meant yes I may have made the ground we sit upon today but you my beloveds you will make couches I may have made whatever you said the sticks I've made I made sticks to cook with but you will make pots and pans and [ __ ] forks far greater works I may have made tents

6:49 did God make I I may have made tents but You, my beloveds, will make hotels, far greater works. So I don't camp because I believe Jesus.

7:06 Yeah. Far greater works have been done and we should not go backwards. Obviously, we're not staying in a tent for your 50th birthday. And we probably have learned Abby Wombok that you should not try to outg me.

7:23 Yeah, that's true. Next. Oh Lord. So to whoever asked this, maybe just go back to Sunday school or something. I don't know. It depends whether you define vacations in Aby's terms as depriving yourself of modern luxuries so that you can enjoy your everyday life more or as Glennon does uh indulging in modern luxuries so that you can enjoy the rest of your life more. Yeah,

8:02 it really I enjoy I'm enjoying I don't I don't ever take for granted air conditioning or forks or couches. I don't think I need to not have them to appreciate that they are here.

8:15 Blessed are the forks. Blessed are the couches. I love that you said sticks and pots and pans and forks because those are not coming coming from sticks. I just want to let you know that.

8:24 No, no, no. Jesus made sticks to cook with. His disciples made forks. Far greater works. All right. All right. Um, second one. Glennon, I love your books and want to tell my own story, but I am struggling with feeling self-indulgent with it. Do you ever feel like it's totally self-centered and egotistical to write books about yourself? I could talk about this forever self-intelligently but I think that I will put it in this framework. I have been interviewed many many times by um people who write articles about writers uh or do podcasts about writers or uh you know kind of cultural critics type people and um one of the things that's said often is I mean I actually remember someone act a very famous cultural critic saying to me during an interview about Untamed, "Do you ever think it's arrogant to write another book about yourself?" And I didn't I couldn't I didn't think of anything smart to say in

9:44 the moment. I just have thought about it every night since then. Like it's my Roman Empire in my mind, wanting that moment back every time. I mean,

9:53 side note, like when Untamed, I think it was around when Untamed came out. I've mentioned this before, but one of the major newspapers in the book section said, "Glenn and Doyle has a third memoir." And then underneath it was David Sedaris's 28,000th memoir out today. Like, she's still talking. This woman is still talking and we're letting her.

10:17 Anyway, there are many ways to look at it. What I can tell you is that I what drives me, what I am most curious about in the world, the only thing I can get myself to care about really is like the human condition. What it's like to be a human and how do we operate and how does this experience work here? And how can we do it in a way that brings us more joy and peace? And how can we work in community with each other, me being human and you being human, and do better down here and have I'm that's all I care about. Like some people care about science and so they are constantly experimenting with petri dishes or whatever. I don't know. But this is my driving question. Okay. Now, when you want to spend your life thinking about spiraling around being curious about the human condition, I suppose you could use for that experiment yourself or you could use other people.

11:21 Okay. What I kind of wanted to say to that person, if I could redo it, was I can barely I use myself. I'm interested in the human condition. So I use I offer myself up as the specimen and that's what I'm doing all the time. I'm trying to say this story is this about all of us? I'll use myself so that we can talk about this thing. Maybe that's arrogant. I don't know. What I can't imagine being arrogant enough to do is be interested in the human experience and only use other people as specimens. I cannot I can barely I can't not not I shouldn't say I can barely I can't even truly figure out my own motives or emotions or drives or ambitions or faults. I sure as hell would never purport to publicly try to understand someone else's. I would never ever look at someone else's art or life or something and write pieces about that person, analyze that person's motives, take apart that person's life and feelings and whatever

12:37 and come up with some kind of premise about that person. To me that is far more arrogant

12:46 than using your own life and saying I am really interested about th about this and I would like to create a campfire for us all to talk about it around. So I'm going to use myself and never you want to bring your own thing let's talk but I will only use my own story in this experiment that I want to spend my life doing. That is what I would say. Like maybe it's arrogant. I can't imagine the hutbah, the whatever it takes to say I'm gonna use you. I'm going to criticize your story, your life, your whatever. That is what when I read those pieces, that blows my mind. Maybe it blow maybe it blows their mind to see me mining my own story again, but it blows my [ __ ] mind when I see people decide to do that with someone else's life. That is my answer. And I want to say to anyone who feels the same way as I do, your story is your [ __ ] right to tell.

13:46 And by the way, they only say this about women. Nobody says to David Sedaris or whoever the hell whatever guy is writing the next thing that it's a naval gazing, that it's confessional, that it's this or it's that. Men are writing about life. Women are writing about themselves. men are exploring the great ideas and women are naval gazing. I actually believe that there is a space that most of the drama and trauma that's happening in our lives and in our world is because people aren't doing enough [ __ ] naval gazing. Like maybe people really need to sit with their own story, work out their own [ __ ] before they unleash it on everybody else. I re I encourage it. So, all of that is to say, I will tell my damn story however the hell I want to for the rest of my life.

14:42 And um I will continue to resist analyzing, criticizing, or pathologizing or pretending to understand anyone else's life. I will stick with myself. I think that this is such an important and brave thing to say because so many people they have this kind of self-consciousness about having any kind of self-importance as if this one wild and precious life that we have here is not important or something. Y

15:13 and like the impulse for somebody to want to tell their story to the world is claiming it's like putting a stake in the ground saying like I am a person that has a voice and has something to say and there's something really important about that being able to say that not just only to the world but to yourself. It's like the self the self- sovereignty that we've been talking a lot about.

15:42 I just think that that's so fascinating and I I'm so glad that you're a writer. Your writing has helped me know myself better.

15:50 Thank you. There's something like that is about it's presented as male and female, but I don't know. It's it's anything that wants to explore inner life is disregarded or shunned or you know oh that's women's stuff or I mean that's been going on forever. Virginia Wolf

16:11 witches would have been you know that was because she was so focused on internal life and internal whatever that she would have been talked about as the like beachreed of the time right that was like so feminine. I rarely think I have something to say and I'm going to say it. I do sometimes like every once in a while, you know, the glad thing or for the freedom fleet or the I do sometimes feel feel that, but it's rarer than my feeling of like I'm so curious about this thing

16:39 like what is this? What is this human experience? And then the idea of like my Angelos's if if if I'm human, nothing human can be foreign to me. That also means if I'm experiencing this, my entire career is based on the assumption that I am not special.

16:59 That is the entire I would never write this [ __ ] if I thought it was just me. Like that I would that would be too terrifying.

17:07 I I believe that we all have our different, you know, flavors, but the substance is the same. The human experience is the same. If I thought I was special or different, I would never be writing any of this. A me a biography is here's my life. A memoir is here is what I'm experiencing that I think is about you,

17:29 right? That I think is about all of us. It's like you have written three memoirs not because you believe you're exceptional, but precisely because you believe that you are not exceptional that like this is a state of the human condition. And if and if you believed you were exceptional, all the better for you. I'm just saying that your belief that the more specific and intimate the story is, the more universal it is of the human experience happens to be why that you're producing this work. That if you were like, "Look at me. I'm a rare little unicorn and I want to tell you about myself." then the motivation to be curious about that would be less robust.

18:16 Yes. I also think there's something Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say I just really do at my core and and they might feel the people who say this about memoirs might have something different at their core and I respect that. For me,

18:30 I cannot imagine being a critic of a memoirist and thinking that memoirist is arrogant, right? Like to me, to me being a critic of another memoirist is the most arrogant thing that you could be that I have this all-encompassing knowledge that can decide whether your story matters, whether you're wrong or right. with I'm over here going I'm trying to figure out if I matter if I my story matter if if this is real like I'm sometimes to be self-focused is more humble than to be other focused

19:07 especially if you're judging the other. Yes. Is what I think. Yes. It's like it takes a lot more arrogance

19:17 to tell someone they don't have a right to be a main character than just someone who's a main character. Like

19:25 exactly the amount of times that people have asked me to write a piece about this person or that person or this memoir or that book or that never

19:33 absolutely not. I will read it. I will have feelings about it. I will have opinions about it. I will think it sucks or it's amazing. I will have a conversation with the author. I would never be like, "Here is my sweeping take on whether this is good or bad." That could

19:49 Yeah, it's audacious. Can't fathom it. It's audacious. It's also super interesting what you just mentioned about Virginia Wolf and like the interior story, like the structural value applied to that versus other things. And it's just so mirrored in every structural hurdle that we've had, you know, like you have like okay the domestic sphere belongs to women and the public sphere belongs to men and that is the natural order of things. And therefore because we have made those assignments the domestic sphere will be um unpaid, unvalued and be seen as just inherently women inherently desire that

20:32 and that gives us um a reason to not compensate that work and to assign it to them. They super want it therefore it has no value. Okay. outs here in the exterior world in the public spaces are where we are going to give prestige and money and value. Okay. And then you look at even the things that happen in the domestic sphere like why is it you punch somebody in the face on the street it's assault you punch somebody in the face in a home suddenly there is way that is now a domestic situation. it is treated differently than if it happened outside the home in the writing. Even the value of saying, "Okay, this is an analysis of internal interior worlds is by definition that's a cute self-help thing. That is not something that is valuable to the world inherently and to people." And it's just like it isn't interior because it's interior. Everything that you talk about has structural and societal and political implications. It

21:45 is called interior because it is a woman exploring it. Exactly. It's not like women have interiors and men don't. That's what I'm trying to say. They're doing the same thing. It's just labeled something else.

21:56 There's always terms used to dismiss women when they talk about their lives or theirelves. It doesn't it's whether it's self-help. Now, there's a lot of self-help that is very prescriptive and I hate it. So, I don't prescriptive self-help. I I understand the ickiness that doesn't that's not what we're talking about.

22:12 Everything else is lumped in there. If it's just a woman a woman exploring daring to put herself as the subject and exploring her own life, it's also dismissed as self-help.

22:23 Um, you know, there used to be women women who were writing about themselves online who dared to say, "I would like to talk about my life." All of us were called mommy bloggers. Rachel Held Evans was called a mommy blogger and she didn't have kids at the time.

22:39 She was talking about faith and love and the world and radical political [ __ ]

22:45 Mommy blogger. That's what they called her. It's just there's always terms for it. And this is a flavor of that to me. And I understand I feel it constantly when my writing is is written about. I I get it. I understand what's happening. like that's the the dismissal of it. Um I'm just I continue to believe that women's stories matter, that women's lives matter. And I also know that in a world that hates women, every time a woman dares to speak, people will find a way to hate it.

23:24 Yes. They'll use different words. They'll use different little dismissing things. They'll say they'll call it they'll they they'll couch it in language that they can forgive themselves for later, but the dismissal of misogyny is at the center of it. Like I always think of the Audrey Lord quote like anything that I accept about myself cannot be used against me. And so this idea that you are you are naming all of the things about yourself which then other women can see in themselves and name for themselves and claim for themselves. It stops being a weapon used against us if it's something that we see and claim on our own. And that is hugely important because everyone's scared to say the thing because they know it's weaponized.

24:15 But here's the truth. If you say the thing and claim the thing, it defangs the thing. Exactly. That's why I'm like, if you're going to write, write the [ __ ] out of it. Write an expose first so nobody else can. That's one of the great comforts of my life is nobody can write an expose that I haven't already written about myself. Um, great question. Thank you for allowing me to get all of that off of my chest. That felt good. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free.

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28:58 Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Okay, the next question is, Amanda, you've shared a lot about control, handling it all, and feeling overwhelmed. Where are you with that right now? Have you found anything that is helpful?

29:19 Just an easy one. This is what we call a softball question. Yeah. Softball. Help the people. Help the people, sister. I'm thinking um so I had I shared a little bit about this on the tour but I um what happened was I went through you know the yearong cancer situation and someone texted me about oh no it was like the day of the year anniversary of my diagnosis and was like holy [ __ ] it's been a year like congratulations I'm sure you're a different person now. I was so sad. Like I I hadn't been sad about the whole thing, but when I got that text and like sat with it for a minute, I felt really legitimately gross and depressed and sad. And I think it's because I realized that I kind of thought that a magical thing would happen with the cancer where it was like kind of this godimposed speed bump where it would be like okay shitty news about that. But the good news is that inevitably there will be

30:42 some transformation of me where I will stop going from like a stressed out, super anxious, feeling like I need to get everything done person and there will be an automatic values realignment where I kind of like see what's important in life and realign myself accordingly and then life will be different and I when I got that text of the year anniversary, I was really unpleasantly surprised to to do a quick review and realize that I had changed nothing about my life,

31:30 that I had like adjusted to the process and the surgeries and the got through that thanks to your help you guys and and everybody's support and then I had been like just jumped on the same treadmill like and just didn't make any changes at all like not to my schedule not to my expectations of myself not to what I spent my time on not to slowing down nothing and I realized I was like I am not going to ever change. Like this is my life and if not this catalyzing a change then like this is just the life I'm going to have because I can't imagine something more dramatic happening that is going to cause me to reassess myself. Like that was the highest goal is trying to do all the things. And I and as long as I thought that that was the highest goal, I didn't know how to stop going for that. Like I didn't know how to adjust myself. It felt like a defeat. Like

32:42 like I have to admit that I can't handle it. And then do you mind if I stop you there for one second just to make sure I understand because I think that was so important. If you think the highest goal is to do all the things, then to not do all of them is just failure to the goal. It's not a shift in you have to shift the goal. Like how would you decide how would you define that goal doing all the things? So um there is an opportunity, there is a challenge, there is a project that needs to be done, there is a goal that you or someone on your team or someone in your family has and therefore you try to go get that thing.

33:27 Yeah. Okay. It felt like if as long as that is what the goal is and you are readjusting yourself, what you're readjusting yourself to is a lesser goal.

33:44 Or just resigning yourself that you are not a person who can any longer achieve the goals.

33:51 Got it. So that feels like defeat and fail. That's huge. Yeah. It just feels like, well, I guess I'm just a [ __ ] consolation prize person now. Like, it just it um if that's the paradigm. And it certainly was. And I couldn't see a way out of that paradigm. And then I was reading this Buddhist master called um Huji U Kennet and she was talking about her goals for her students and like the way she really pushes them and works with them. And she said that her goal for her students, her ultimate goal was not to lighten their burden, but to make their burden so heavy that they put it down. For me, it felt like, oh, it's not it's not that the burden is so heavy and I need to keep holding it up.

34:51 Like that's not a show of the highest best form of my life that I can keep holding it up. It's like it it's shifting the goalpost. It's like if you get to the place where you can put it down, that's actually the goal.

35:13 Like it just even changing that framing was like, "Oh [ __ ] is that the point? Is the point not to keep piling, but is the point to have enough awareness to look and be like, do I want to keep holding all this [ __ ] up? And do I want to spend my whole life struggling to hold this up? And do I want to spend my whole life resentful and angry and bitter towards everyone whose arms look honestly a little more relaxed than mine? Mhm.

35:44 Because that all of my energy is either going to holding or resenting and being like, why can't someone help me hold this? Why is no one seeing how heavy this is to hold and why can't they help me? And that reframing was like, maybe we're not helping you because we don't want you to keep holding it.

36:06 Yes. Exactly. Maybe we're not helping you because that would just keep your arms in the air for the rest of your life and ours too.

36:13 Yes. Maybe we're not helping you because the whole [ __ ] point is to put it down.

36:18 Yes. Oh. And that for me has changed my self a little bit because it is entering just this little bit of calculus that's like here's a heavy plate. Okay, great. Got it. It's more like do I want to hold that plate?

36:47 Do I even like that plate? what has that plate done for me? Do I want that plate in my life before I take it on? And that is just not even a thing that used to be part of my life. So, um, for me, the control even starts earlier. It's like, do I want that in my life? And the other part of it is also that Audre Lord quote that's you pay attention to the present you're constructing it should look a lot like the future you're dreaming is that I am trying to really condense the window between what I say I want and hope for my future self and what I say I will take on for my present self.

37:46 Those two things together have allowed me a little more breathing room because the control has to do with you've got to maintain a really really lot of control if you're holding up the you know a platter full of precious dishes.

38:07 Yeah. Like and then of course you're mad that no one sees you. And of course, you're mad that no one's helping you. And you got to really figure out how how many plates are really yours up there. Yeah.

38:21 And if not, put them on someone else's [ __ ] platter. That belongs to you. That's yours to control. That's not mine. And then like the new ones that come on, like really be careful what you put on there. And and it's lighter. And you have to exercise less less control

38:36 when there's less to hold. Yes. does. And there was a lot of [ __ ] on my platter that didn't belong to me.

38:42 Mhm. That's right. And so that's what I'm trying to work on. And now it's time for our ads. Gain is on a mission to spread the joy of scent. And they are doing it through their new Gain Wicked forgood collection. Just like the film transports us to another world, the power of scent does too. And together they're taking us all the way to Oz. The new Gain Wicked forgood collection lets fans get sent to Oz with three enchanting limited edition scents designed to transport you to the world of Oz. My favorite is the Gain inwash scent boosters in wonderfulst woods and beautifical blossom beads. The scent has a way of making me feel both happy and calm. And there are very few things in my life that can do that. I pull my laundry out and it smells good and it makes my house and my people smell good.

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41:34 Okay, so here's the thing that I've learned. The moments that matter most in life are often the small ones, the tiny gestures that say, "I see you. I'm here. Zel helps us show up for the people around us even when we can't be there in person. Recently, a friend was going through a hard time. And I couldn't fix a situation, and I couldn't be there by their side. So, I just sent them a little something that they could take a break, get a coffee, and feel cared for. That's the beauty of Zel. Whether it's a birthday surprise for a friend across the country or helping your niece out when her car breaks down, Zel is there when you need to send money or receive money so that you can be there when it counts. And because the money goes directly into your enrolled bank account, it's there when you need it, quickly and securely. Life is made up these small little moments of love and support. And with Zel, you can make them

42:27 happen. When it counts, send money with Zel. First of all, the the diff shift between like the peace that the path to peace is peace. So like every time we say to ourselves is something that you and I do all the time and you do too. I'm sure everybody does it. But the idea of well I'm just going to hold on for another this because I'm going to get the peace. Like this is the time where I do the things so that I can earn the peace. And then that never works, right? I'm just I don't know what the answer to that is. I just know I've become supremely suspicious of myself every time I say something that hints at horizon living

43:12 that there is Yeah. And this is the idea of like I'm going to pay the price of a lack of peace because in this transaction is the promise of future peace. Yes. As if peace isn't.

43:26 This is what you're describing time. Yes. Mhm. Um, so that I think we should be suspicious of and that's what that quote is getting at. Like if you're not if it's not now, don't pretend that there's a means to an end here. The peace is if peace is the end, then peace has to be the means. And I I also just want to say this because I think it's very important for the three of us to really like embody this understanding too is that there has been an extraordinary amount of affirmation related to the toil and the holding up of plates in all three of our lives. Like the three of us work extraordinarily hard. We're holding up a lot of plates in the air and there's a thing that that has come from it, right? Like we have I have won extraordinary things. I've done extraordinary things. This podcast has done extraordinary things. But there has been a cost. And I think that that the cost that gets paid, we can easily

44:30 ignore because we start to prioritize all of these other things that we can claim as affirmations or the positive sides or whatever that the world is telling us because this is the capitalism, right? It's like the world that we live in right now. So the kind of bravery, sister, for you to want to stop the paradigm for yourself and to put things down that does not belong to you. It is like what we kind of need to keep doing.

44:59 It reminds me of that story of the person climbing like there's like a ladder against a wall. I think this is another Buddhist story. And the guy like can't get up the the ladder fast enough. So he's like trying to like train and trying to figure out how to get up the last the ladder faster and how to be the fastest and how to be and then suddenly realizes like the ladder is not is on the wrong wall. Like it's the wall. It's the wrong [ __ ] wall. Like it doesn't matter how good he's going to that how fast he's going to make it up that ladder if it's the wrong wall.

45:33 So like I'm thinking now of the wall as your original goal. Like the ultimate goal is to solve all the problems, do all the projects, do all the things, fix all the things for all the people, be the best at it. If I do anything less than that,

45:49 it's I'm just being less good at the job, at the wall. So if that's not the wall, do you have any idea what the replacement for that goal is? And it might just be I also believe strongly in the not this moment. It could just be I get I I don't know yet. I just know it's not this wall.

46:11 Is there any inkling of what the next the real or truer ultimate goal or wall is for you? I mean, listen, I have I hesitate to even like it's really easy for a person who has a bunch of financial resources and uh and is really privileged and to be like, I'm going to put it down because I'm also a person that, you know, I stayed miserable for 10 years at a law firm job that I hated every minute of because I had the goal and I'm paying off my student loans, right? And like I am grateful to that person who did that because that person allowed me to then come take the experiment with you and then build this.

47:04 So like I don't I I think there might be a time and a place in life for all these different stages and so I don't know that it is always put it down. All I know is there is where there is also a self-imposed prison where if you have always lived a certain way and then you assume that you always have to live a certain way. I know that it would be foolish to live in the same level of delayed gratification. the same level of I am sacrificing for a future me when I am someone who is 47 years old and has what I have and gets to make choices for myself

47:54 that like no one is coming to save me. I am the only one who knows what I want and need and will make me happy period. And so I would be living in the same fiction if I didn't accept that now as I would have been living in a fiction if I believed I could quit my law firm job and just figure out a way to to pay off hundreds of thousands of law school debt. Like just because it was true then doesn't make it true now. And I think that kind of reality checking of like what outdated rules and beliefs are you living by in this moment that just because they served you then doesn't make them true right now.

48:46 I am in a moment where I'm like I need to have a come to Jesus with myself and be like

48:52 what are the stories you're telling you about your life because they're actually different now.

48:56 Yep. And and what's different now is that you get to choose. And you know what? That's even less comfortable for you.

49:03 It would be much more comfortable the way I am built to be like there's a path, there's a rule. What we do is we do the thing now for the payoff later. That's what I've always done every day of my life, my entire life. It is deeply deeply uncomfortable for me to adapt to a world in which I have the valition and I have the responsibility to figure it out. I never had that responsibility to figure it out before. All I was doing was the quote unquote smartest, best long-term plan. And now I'm at a point in my life where that long-term plan is actually not suited to my circumstance.

49:41 And I'd be lying to myself to say that it was. And so I have to figure that out. And I am a tiny infant baby. I have no idea how to figure out what I want. I have no idea how to build a life that isn't based on rules. I have no idea how to be like not as prudent smart decision that like that's the path I I I am finally at a stage where I have to like figure my own path by myself for myself and that's not comfortable for me. So I don't know what it is. All I know is that there are different considerations that I have never considered that I'm being forced to consider if I'm going to live honestly according to my reality.

50:28 Well, it's a good thing you can do hard things, sister. Um, we're going to stop there. We love you, Pod Squad. We'll see you next time. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and we can do hard things show on Tik Tok.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Amanda’s Breakthrough: Finally Letting Go"?

Glennon Doyle (Host), Abby Wambach (Host), Amanda (Guest).

What is "Amanda’s Breakthrough: Finally Letting Go" about?

The discussion centers on the nuances between vacations and trips, particularly examining the tension some feel towards camping as a form of leisure. It also explores deeper themes such as the ethics of memoir writing and Amanda’s personal journey of letting go of control, revealing how these issues contribute to their overall well-being.

What is mentioned in this We Can Do Hard Things episode?

7 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Untamed, Audre Lorde, David Sedaris, Virginia Woolf. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Amanda’s Breakthrough: Finally Letting Go"?

The episode runs 51 min; the transcript is about 7,825 words in 108 timestamped sections.

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