Transcript

Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself

From We Can Do Hard Things · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 6 min · 11,468 words · 233 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself", an episode of We Can Do Hard Things published October 23, 2025 (1 h 6 min, about 11,468 words). It mentions 10 people, works and ideas, including Returning to Myself, Brandi Carlile, Katherine Carlile, The Long Goodbye, Joan Baez (Joanie).

What this episode is about

Brandi Carlile's new album, "Returning to Myself," marks a deeply personal exploration of her emotional landscape and past experiences, showcasing her most vulnerable and raw self. The conversation highlights the significance of the album in her life and the transformational journey she undertook, offering fans a unique insight into her artistic evolution and personal narrative.

Key takeaways

  • Brandy Carlile's 'Returning to Myself' isn't just music; it’s an emotional GPS for anyone lost in self-doubt.
  • From 'cute kid' to acne struggles: Brandy's journey reflects the raw transition from innocence to authenticity.
  • Candid songs reveal vulnerability: Brandy's best album is a love letter to her most genuine self.
  • The power of personal music: Brandy's album transforms obstacles into artistic triumphs—proof that pain is relatable gold.
  • Stat: the publishing mantra that empowers; Brandy's commitment to authenticity teaches artists to own their 'mistakes.'

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Returning to Myself, Brandi Carlile, Joan Baez (Joanie), Katherine Carlile
  2. – 20:00: Returning to Myself, Zelle, ZipRecruiter, Katherine Carlile
  3. – 40:00: Armra, The Long Goodbye
  4. – 50:00: The Long Goodbye, Joan Baez (Joanie)

Notable quotes from "Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself"

  • Here and Brandy is about to sit with me and talk to me about her new album Returning to Myself, which is the most personal portrait of Brandy Carile's mind and heart that I've ever witnessed. And as Bry's.
    about Returning to Myself · at
  • For her, because she's already back to painting. But basically, it was hard work for all of us to catch up to where Joanie was when she wrote Hajira and learned those songs.…
    about Joan Baez (Joanie) · at
  • Guitar chords. And so I put I put this trip to go to New York at the end of a work trip. I was calling it like I was going to end the Hollywood Bowl. I was going to get on a…
    about Aaron Desner · at
  • Are qualified for the role that you need to fill. Hire the right people for your business with Zip Recruiter. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality…
    about ZipRecruiter · at
  • Pelaton is shaping the future of fitness with the brand new Pelaton crossraining tread plus powered by Pelaton IQ. So, as you might imagine, I'm kind of particular about how I work out. So, I.
    about Peloton · at
  • That's why I've been using Armra's colostrum, nature's original superfood.
    about Armra · at
  • It's really similar to well it ends with the same sentiment that human sort of begins with which is just that like you know I've had this life where.
    about The Long Goodbye · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Brandi Carlile — Person · Main guest · 2 mentions · first at
    Central interview subject discussing the writing, themes, and personal vulnerability behind her new album and her relationships (family, community, collaborators).
    To arrive at my house. they're about to get here. They're about to come down here and Brandy is about to sit with me and talk to me about her new album Returning to Myself, which is the most personal portrait of Brandy Carile's mind and.
  • Katherine Carlile — Person · Featured participant / spouse referenced; present in conversation · 2 mentions · first at
    Appears as Brandy's wife and a key subject of multiple songs and themes (intimacy, being known, social grace vs. inner life). Also acts as a sounding board/editorial presence around the album's most personal material.
    My, seven-year-old be You look so beautiful. I can hardly talk to you right now. And Catherine's That is not the right thing to say. Stop talking to her. Hey, Pod Squad.
  • Joan Baez (Joanie) — Person · Referenced artist / catalyst for album theme · 3 mentions · first at
    Referenced as the artist Brandy performed with at the Hollywood Bowl; her work (notably 'Hejira') and the idea of 'returning to oneself' catalyze Brandy's poem/song and the album's thematic direction.
  • Aaron Desner — Person · Referenced collaborator / co-writer · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as the co-writing collaborator Brandy traveled to upstate New York to meet, marking a deliberate attempt to change her process and begin writing that led to 'Returning to Myself.'

Books & papers

  • Returning to Myself — Book · Primary recommendation · 7 mentions · first at
    Brandy Carile's new album discussed as her most personal work, central to the episode's conversation.
  • The Long Goodbye — Book · Referenced work · 5 mentions · first at
    A song from Brandy Carile's album discussed as a memoir in three and a half minutes, touching on themes of life and aging.

Sponsors

  • Peloton — Product · Sponsor · 4 mentions
    Promoted as a versatile fitness solution, especially highlighting the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus.
  • ZipRecruiter — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Promoted as a solution for hiring, especially highlighted during National Women's Small Business Month.
  • Zelle — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Promoted as a convenient way to send money, emphasizing small, thoughtful gestures in relationships.
    Gestures. Most of the time, it's the small, thoughtful moments that hold everything together. That's why I love Zel. It makes it so easy to show up for people in those small but super meaningful ways.
  • Armra — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Promoted as a colostrum-based superfood supplement supporting gut health and immune function.

Full transcript with timestamps

I don't know if it's just like my dyiness, but like I say I'll say to like my, you know, seven-year-old be like,

"You look so beautiful. I can hardly talk to you right now." And Catherine's like, "That is not the right thing to say. Stop talking to her." Hey, Pod Squad. I'm sitting in my basement and waiting for Brandy Carile and Katherine Carile to arrive at my house. Um, they're about to get here. They're about to come down here and Brandy is about to sit with me and talk to me about her new album um Returning to Myself, which is the most personal portrait of Brandy Carile's mind and heart that I've ever witnessed. And as Bry's fan and more importantly dear friend, I'm so excited for you to meet this side of Brandy.

Um Kath's going to be here. Aby's going to be here. And I just don't think that you're going to miss want to miss this conversation because Bry's about to get more vulnerable and raw than she ever has. Um, and the Cariles are people who have changed our lives and who have become family to us. Brandy Carile's new album, which is my personal favorite that Bry's ever written, is called Returning to Myself, and it is out tomorrow.

When I was little, I was really, really cute. Are we recording? No. Okay. I was a really really cute little kid and then I and I actually remember the energy of that power.

I only remember energetic things like I remember that the power of that. I remember

like a leaning in from of a tension of a whatever like a power in the world. And when I turned 12,

I got so the kids would say chopped. Like I just just the acne was so severe and the hair and the all the thing I got. So it was like a dramatic turn and I could feel energetically the pulling away.

Oh, whoa. Like the power of a beautiful little kid and then losing all the power and like I even felt it. I I feel like I felt it even from my parents like a

wow what are we going to do? So I don't know. Anyway, Kath sent me the new album a long time ago and I have avoided listening to it. And the reason I avoid listening to your music when it's new is that I always feel like I have like a vase inside of me that is very full. And my job is to make no sudden movements to make sure that the bass doesn't spill out. And your music makes things spill very much. So I knew I was going to need some time. I also, our mutual daughter Tish had told me repeatedly like when she came home from the studio with you, she said something about this being the best album. And I stopped her and said, "Do you seriously think this is going to be Bry's best album?" And she said, "No, what I'm saying to you is this is the best album ever."

And she's not like super dramatic about things that she says. So I was like, "Okay." Anyway, this last th this last Saturday morning, I woke up at 7:00 a.m. and I was by myself upstairs and spent hours listening to every song all the all the way through then over again. And I think that she was right. I think it's the most incredible expression of you and I'm not musically knowledgeable. So, I just want to talk to you about the lyrics and what it all means and like what you were thinking.

Yeah. What are the thoughts that were that created this album? Well, thank you.

It's so [ __ ] Do you know that it's so [ __ ] good? I mean, I know I'm really really really in love with it.

You know, I'm hesitating to like lean on cliché like proud of it and stuff like that, but the love I feel for the album is kind of it's jarring to me. So, I want to listen to it all the time. And you know, I feel awkward saying that, but like I think it's good for me because I've I'm proud of all of my albums and stuff, but I've never like loved one so personally that uh it's not that I don't care what anyone thinks about it at the end of the day, but it's that like I don't care enough to change a single like thing about it. And it just it's got me in some place that I haven't been had access to for a really long time.

We have a word for that in writing which is the word stat. Have you heard about that?

No. Tell me. So when I first started writing, I would get all my edits back from my editor and I would be like, "Oh, that is correct." And I would just change everything because like I thought that mine was wrong and they were right and they knew.

Yeah. And then over time I would get it back and I'd be like no it's then I learned the word stat which in publishing means I said what I said it means leave it like even if it's a mistake it's my mistake and that takes like being so personal in your writing that you're like whether that's right or wrong that's exactly what I meant.

Yeah. I take responsibility for it. Yeah. No matter what that means. So, why did you choose Returning to Myself as the first song? Why is that? What does that mean? Because it feels like what you had to do to write the album.

Yeah. Is Return to Yourself. Well, it was the first thing I wrote when I put Pen to Paper was a poem called Returning to Myself. Um and I didn't know I was starting an album or anything. You know, it was like I came here to do the Hollywood Bull with Joanie

and the leadup to that was just incredibly challenging for so many reasons, but like the main reason was that Joanie had returned to herself in such a way that she just chose very difficult music to play at the Hollywood Bowl. She had a point that she wanted to make. She had a stand that she wanted to take. It was even a last stand of sorts for her, you know, because she's already back to painting. But basically, it was hard work for all of us to catch up to where Joanie was when she wrote Hajira and learned those songs. And Hajira is an album all about this this pilgrimage, you know, this kind of like journey into self.

And so I'm sitting next to her and I'm seeing these lyrics come across the screen. I'm seeing her rediscover her lyrics. And I just had a really profound experience of being totally consumed by the life of another artist. Um, and am reading these lyrics about returning to oneself and feeling uncomfortable about it, like convicted by it and just kind of

almost offended in a way. I know that feeling. You're like justifying your way of being.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I don't agree with this, you know, and and and meanwhile, I'm like not eating and I'm just drinking coffee all day long and like not sleeping and I'm just thinking about guitar chords. And so I I put I put this trip to go to New York at the end end of a work trip. I was calling it like I was going to end the Hollywood Bowl. I was going to get on a plane, fly to the East Coast, meet this guy called Aaron Desner and um write write some songs with him. And I didn't know if the songs were from me or if they from him or somebody else or or whatever. But I'm not I'm not a big coowwriter. I've never done it. And I want to shake myself out of this of this way of doing things. So I'm like, end of a work trip. I'll finish the Hollywood Bowl. I'll go meet this nice fella. And when I landed in New York City, it wasn't New York City. It was upstate New York. And I didn't even pay enough

attention in my life to know where I was going to be landing. And I ended up driving this rental car out to this middle of nowhere and to this guy's like barn. And I realized to my horror and yours

that I had to sleep there in a barn. Yeah. Well, it was very nice barn, but Okay.

It was like I thought I was going to be, you know, in the city at at, you know, at a hotel. And you know, he went to bed and I went up to this room and realized that I had flown to the east coast by myself without even an instrument. I didn't know what I was doing there. And I was still taken aback by the weekend. And I just sat down and wrote the poem Returning to myself. And I was just so miserably and utterly alone. Miserably and utterly alone. It's a nightmare for me.

Why? And like what is it? cuz I'm I you and Cath truly and deeply have taught me like if there's two ways of being turning inward and outward like inward to self or outward to community in life and truly you two have taught me to live a little more in community

in lots of ways. A lot of the way I do things have changed has changed since I watched how you guys live.

Um trusting people, losing yourself in other people in a beautiful way. Um, what does if there's like a consciousness that's always shoved either outward or inward,

do you feel more comfortable outward? And what does it mean to turn like because you once told me I don't self-reflect. What does that mean? That's all I do. What do you do then? I think I just kind of have a primal carnal way of being. Like I I know how to be alone with people,

you know? I sit how I'm going to sit. I drink what I'm going to drink. I do what I'm going to do. I lean where I'm going to lean. You know, whereas my wife, she's British, so it's like, you know, if if somebody knocks on the door, it's like, yeah, it's Yeah.

You're performing. Yeah. Well, and she Yes. They're hosting. It's like, do we have the right biscuits enough? Go put the kettle on and you know, she's got to have makeup on and like this whole thing. And I'm just like, you can come in. There's the fridge,

right? Like I am playing Zelda right now. Or or it might be like, let's open a bottle of wine and lean in. What is going on in your life? You know, I have to hear about this new person you're seeing or whatever. Like it could be a really intense connection. Or it could be just a total alone with someone thing, but I don't like alone.

I don't I don't know why. I'm just really uncomfortable with it. And I'm actually now getting to a point because I'm in my 40s where I'm fascinated by why I'm so uncomfortable with it.

So what's in the aloneeness? Like you're sitting in the barn. Yeah. And you're stuck with yourself with no other distractions. You're not in the city.

Yeah. What is in there? I don't know. like none of the things that I like to do with my hands and distract myself with feel like I'm wasting time.

I feel like I'm not getting any juice from anything. Um and I'm just kind of like dormant.

Mhm. So when you say in this in the song returning to myself is the lone is a lonely thing to do but it's the only thing to do. What does that mean? It

was the only thing I could do. That just means like this night apparently this is the only thing I can do I can do.

No video games. No fishing pole. Just like you know. Yeah. Just a a a moles skin and a pen and a bunch of sharp pencils. I love sharp pencils.

You know. Okay. So when you say I love you and you and you Yeah. Is that Kath and Evangelene and Elijah

at one point? Yeah. Okay. I love you and you and you and returning to myself is returning me to you.

What does that mean? How do I end it? What does that mean? I think I've come to the conclusion that I had success in music kind of later in life than a lot of other artists do.

And I just got like fire hosed with opportunity in a way that really triggered this ambition in me where I just wanted to do everything and be everywhere and take every opportunity, live every day like it's my last. I really don't have a problem staying in the moment. It's a superpower. But I do tend to believe that it only thing that matters is the moment. Mhm.

And so I think I just like did everything that I ever wanted to do in like six years and realized that maybe returning to myself is returning myself to my family.

What is a woman overseas about? Like you don't know. Okay. I mean, I'm deeper and deeper more obsessed. Kathy just gave me a look. I'm deeper and deeper more obsessed with each song, so just don't get straight in.

But okay, that song is about Kath. Yeah. Okay. And I'm It starts with a line that says, "A woman I know." I went abroad to see. And then the end says, "A woman no one knows." This the last line. Yeah.

So, what are you saying with that song? It's so beautiful. Are you saying that you know Kath and no one else does or are you saying that you don't know Kath? What are you saying? Well, you know that feeling where it's like you've just maybe you've sat down with somebody like yourself who's just really engaging and charismatic who just asks like a lot of questions and the next thing you know you've just been talking

and then you leave and you're like spiraling because you're like I just talked for two hours and I didn't ask a question and

what was what is it about that woman like why didn't we go there in in terms of her.

Mhm. You know, why didn't we scratch the surface of her? How did she trick me? What was this? What is this voodoo like? How did I get drawn into this self-revealing oversharing overly emotional ex inside out place? Who who is she? And I mean, I don't mean to overexpose my darling wife, but she does that. And she does it so effectively, you know, and interested is interesting. So, she's very interesting because she's very interested, but I know there's more in there. And I I really felt it um in a glaring way when when we lost her dad

cuz every time we'd go somewhere to sit down for dinner or we'd go to somebody's house in the evening, I would be like, "Okay, Cass's going to talk about losing her dad." But she would turn on the ca she would flip on the cath switch

and we'd only hear, you know, this poor person would get tricked into this over this, you know.

Mhm. Do you know what I'm talking about? Of course I do. And so I just I I wrote the song I guess out of like love and frustration and just like, you know, you got to got to open up. And even married to her, even I am am sitting next to this puppeteer, you know, who's just so incredibly socially graceful and charismatic, and I'm proud to walk into every room with her because she just wins the day.

Yeah, she does. You know what I mean? Everyone knows what you mean by that. Yeah.

Yeah. But it is interesting because I don't think you ever leave Cath's presence without feeling absolutely loved and amazing about yourself.

It's true. And then there is the question of I wonder if Cath felt loved. That's what I'm saying about yourself. Like exact like I wonder.

Yeah. But it is quite dominant and that's why it's spelled a woman overseas as ees because it's like that is a environment that is controlled by a really emotionally intelligent person.

It's witchy. It is. I respect it. Yeah. It's kind of hot. Yeah. Never change path.

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Can you talk to you without me? You without me. I'm sorry. Can you talk without you? A lot of people think say me without you, which is I think that's interesting too.

Well, tell us the origin. How did that start? And what does it mean? What is it about?

Well, it's funny how many songs on this album start with you and Abby and Tish, but that one did. Don't you remember? I mean, I know human. What? How did that one start?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I came here to work with uh Elton and you and Abby took started taking Evangeline to her soccer

soccer lessons, you know, cuz we do things in a community. We do life together. We're like very real friends.

And I was going to take her to like she'd done like one practice. She was totally, you know, Abby was like doing the pep talks, the whole thing.

Yeah. She was like got so invested so fast and she wouldn't come to Vegas with me,

right, to go do the pink shows. And um I was I was like telling you backstage at Tish's show

actually of all places. I was telling you Yeah. And I watched her walk over to the team and she had this like her shoulders were different and she was like, you know, she gave me like a thumbs up and she just walked away from me. And then she had this whole other personality while she was like addressing these kids and it was so vulnerable but like and I was like there you are. That's that's the you that's the one without you know without me. And you're like the you without me. And you stopped me and you

are you serious? You you I remember we talked about this. I didn't know we Oh, you stopped me and you and you said, "Wow." Like, "Wow, think about that." And I went straight back that night and got in bed and just wrote that whole song.

It's so amazing because and it's so parallel because I when I see Tish doing music

that is clearly you without me. I have no idea where you But it's the same like you with Eva and Soccer. Yeah,

it it feels to me like you know the um the Jeppetto and Pinocchio Jeppetto's like he's a real boy. Like

you just watch like your your person come to life and be something that you didn't contribute

Yeah. to them. And you're like I would be so terrified to do that. What is going to happen to you?

Yes. And I can't even reach you know. Yes. You're in a world where I cannot go.

Yeah. And it almost It almost doesn't matter how small the thing is. Like the people that have come up to me with the you without me stories now.

That's my favorite part of about my job is the way that my meaning universalizes and becomes someone else's meaning. It's and it's like I get such joy out of hearing, you know, a dad come up to me and be like, I was on the dance floor last night with my little girl and she like asked for some time and she joined another group of little girls and I watched her try to move her body

and look like everyone else and take this big risk, you know, right in front of me. I couldn't reach her. She didn't even want me there.

And I don't know what this feeling is. And I'm like, that's the you without me feeling.

And the dream is like one of the lines in that song that makes you want to jump off a cliff is um the part that's give me a quick thumbs up before you go. I mean, we just dropped Tisha from college and when I listened to that song, all I was thinking about was when we closed the door. I mean Tish and I are not unemotional people. So it we were emotional and it was all of us and I kept thinking please just give me that little thing like I'm leaving just please like make eye contact or like just the little thing that's like

just turn back something and that's some she did. What' she do? It was just a look in her eyes. It was like an extra bless you Kath. It was just like an extra second of like I understand what this moment is and like mom you can do this. It wasn't like tish you can do this. Yeah.

It was a moment of I understand. I'm marking this for us. I'm clocking this between the two of us with this tiny gesture

and you've got this to to me. Yeah. Is what it felt like. Yeah. I've got this. Oh,

I could see her doing that. Mhm. I feel like the the the thing with I mean your guys' relationship is so unique with all of your children, but there's this thing with you and Tish that I can really identify with where you have such a spiritual similarity, you know, the power of synthesis, understanding what's potent and what's important about a really big thing. Um debilitating empathy.

Yeah. um you know like a calm quiet sort of wisdom that doesn't really have a bunch of judgment in it

in all of these things. But then and you're both artists, you're both writers, but she's this different kind of artist to you. So you're going to see her singing as this like scary superpower.

I do. You know, I bet I bet you do. I can't. I do. Can you tell me the story of war with time? Because Tish did and it blew my mind. The airplane.

Oh, that. Oh, that's just one of the stories with War with Time. Then tell me the whole thing, too. Whatever you want to talk about that. No, that's a cool that's a really specific story that I remember from um you know I didn't go on an airplane till I was 17 years old and that's like that's quite an age I think to and I was alone and I was just flying to Idaho but it was like that feeling of when a plane takes off and it lands nobody can nobody tells you about that like you can't be warned about it

and uh you know it was also pre 911 when I flew for the first time and then like the second or third time I flew I was going to the east coast and that's like a whole other thing

and it was like right when JetBlue had put like TVs in the backs of seats and I that was a whole other thing every it was like this amazing technology you can see like live news live TV

and there was a plane that was landing somewhere east and the landing gear hadn't had turned and stopped and so the wheels weren't facing the right direction and this plane like circled around um and until it had to land trying to figure out a way to get the landing gear to go back. Well, the news had picked up on it and was sensationalizing what was going to happen to the plane when it landed. They were doing like cartoon, you know,

reenactments, pre-enactments, if you will, about what would happen to the plane if this thing was a stopper and showing the plane breaking apart and tilting to one side and the wing breaking off and landing in, you know, a fiery death. And and like about halfway through their campaign of of, you know, morbid attraction, they had realized that the people that were up in this plane could see what they were doing. because it was a JetBlue flight. And I saw something in the media that I'd love to see now where it collectively took accountability for what it was doing

and changed the whole sentiment to kind of that post 911 like galvanized you're going to be okay, we're all behind you, you know, kind of like messaging. And I just remember staring at a a screen in the airport wondering what was going to happen to that plane when it landed. And um it was absolutely fine. It shot like you know flames out to the side. But the the impact like the takeaway lesson for me was how damaging the collective of people can be and then how healing it can be if it wants to be. And it was just such a message for like a 19-year-old, 20-y old, I don't know how old it kid,

you know, and I also made me feel like I'm not home anymore. Like I'm in the big world now,

you know. Is that the moment? That's what a war with time is about. It happened. That's what I mean about the broken wheel, you know? But when I landed in New York City for the first time, I just was so grown up.

It was like, this is it. I've arrived as an fully functioning adult. And I think anybody that lands in a really big city for the first time feels that way. But New York has a specialness to it.

Yeah. And I just have this thing where it's like that was the moment for me. Like that was the turning point. And I know that like our kids are going to have it

wherever it is or whatever it is. And I want that, but like I'm never going to want it consciously. So don't even ask me.

Yes. Just do it. You're smiling with so much recognition. I understand 100%. Um, what I think that one of the things that the kids and I have been talking about is how we haven't I'm sure that it's out there, but we haven't felt a lot of music right now that really feels timely.

It feels like of the moment and this album really deeply does to me. And what do you what does the song human what are you trying to tell people with that song?

Well, the reason I sent you that song when I first wrote it is, you know, because I' I think I feel like I know you so well. And I think you know and everybody's always known that you have this kind of canary in the coal mine thing about you where it's like you feel the weight of the world and the pain of the world in really sort of like unquantifiable ways that I think could be you know insurmountable at times and I was just feeling that way too that night and I started thinking about um this was before the fires who just only just

I started thinking about like the destructiveness of of fires and how relevant and prevalent they are, you know, and there's nothing good about them. There's just like there's no silver lining, if you will. Um, but in the Pacific Northwest when the fire wildfire smoke comes north, we get these wildfire suns and they're just like big beautiful bright red bulbs of of apocalypse and um and they're so beautiful and you can look right at them for once and there's just something about that that is I guess the only byproduct of something so destructive that you can just sink your teeth in and go, okay, there's one good thing. And it's like I feel like while we're fighting, while we're working, while we're problem solving, while we're living through a profoundly difficult time in human history, we have to remember that we're here for such a split second, just like the blink of an eye, that whatever tiny

thing makes us happy and and feel good and remind us of how innocent we molecularly are, like at our core,

we have to do that thing. And we have got to find a way to be human and soft and and and filled with joy

in whatever environment we're in. Yeah. And that's why I sent you that song because it was the night before the election

and I just felt you. You could feel from halfway across the country. I kind of could, you know, and the responsibility that you feel for other people and that you take for other people like

you get on the phone and you a woman overseas with somebody for an hour until they're empty and they're light,

you know, you do that. I told the story about the forest fire son. Yeah. The wildfire.

The wildfire sun. Well, the first thing you said was, "Have you ever seen a forest fire?" I'm like, Freddy, is it a screen saver you can send me? Obviously, I haven't seen it.

So, I sent you a wildfire. So, yeah. Then you sent me this. But I told that story from stage on tour a lot and I realized halfway through I was telling it like so Brandy was saying, "Yes, all this, this is a bad paraphrase, but yes, all this horror is happening,

but have you ever seen a son in the in a forest fire?" Yeah. And then I realized halfway through that I need to change it because that's not what you were saying and that's not what that moment is. It's not a butt. It's like that thing doesn't happen. It's not like look over here or look over there.

Mhm. It's like no no that that sun doesn't happen without the fire. Yeah. Like both together.

Yeah. It's not even like look over here and look over there. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're not you're what you weren't saying wasn't spiritual bypassing. It wasn't. I know it's sad, but there's other happy things you can look at instead.

No, it's a way of looking at it that's like there's actually some [ __ ] that wouldn't even be so beautiful if it weren't on fire.

Yeah. Oh, thank you for recognizing that. I'm always worried that like people think I'm polyiana or something looking for like a silver lining and I'm really not.

I'm just saying we have to feel all the things within the moment. We have to meet the moment in every way. But it can't it can't eclipse like our very short lives.

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first subscription order. That's a r a.com/hardth. Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about the long goodbye?

The long goodbye? Well, it's like a memoir in three and a half minutes, isn't it?

It sure is. It It'll get you. It'll get you. Did it get you? Well, it got which bit got you the most?

Well, first of all, it got me from before I listened to it. Tish just told me the concept and it ruined my life.

Just the knowing the concept of the song, which can you describe what can you describe in your own words what the concept of the long goodbye is? It's really similar to well it ends with the same sentiment that human sort of begins with which is just that like you know I've had this life where the first half of it was really chaotic and really formative and um that for some reason it's awarded me some perspective in the second half of my life and more peace. I think everybody thinks of their childhood is like the peaceful time, you know, don't grow up too fast,

you know, don't squander your youth. I'm like, give me every line, you know, let my hair get thin. Let it all happen because actually this is the sweet spot,

you know? and recognizing that right now is me like dragging my feet on the ground to slow the second half down.

That's the bit I want to slow down. And um so I'm okay, you know, having lost those years or let those years sort of be behind me. And I'm writing about I'm writing about that journey and I'm writing about the chaotic dangerous middle bit where anyone can die

where you can lose yourself to the the hormonal takeover of your brain or whatever or substance and you know all of the danger that we kind of like feed off of in that elbow of life. And then I'm writing about my like the love of my life and my family and how like oh I'm so jealous for those years like I want all that time back

you know to be with Kath and but I would have screwed it up. We would have screwed it up. We would have fought over something

small and and and wouldn't know each other, you know. So, I'm just saying like don't speed up the second half of life. Don't pine for for your youth, you know? Don't worry about growing up too fast. Worry about being worried about growing old.

Like there's nothing to worry about. Like when I the only thing we have to worry about is worry itself.

Yeah. Exactly. I I just think that like one of the most profound things that I've ever seen and this actually occurred to me when I was writing a long goodbye in the end when I say let it go, keep it light, let it snow, let the wind blow all night. It's only life after all. It's a blink of an eye. It's a long goodbye is Meg and Andrea. Oh,

it's that moment in the dock when the, you know, the old filters on the phone. That's just everybody needs to see that. Everyone needs to see that. Who who is thinking about aging as a problem?

Yeah. All Andrew want to do is get old. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How lucky are we if we can take that from Andrea and and just change the way we think right now.

Yeah. Like I just want to get old. Yeah. Thanks to Andrea. That's such a gift. So huge.

And Andrea left behind so many gifts, but like that's I think that's my favorite one.

Yeah. I just want to get old. And then talking to Andrea about bodies when Meg was talking to Andrea about bodies and body size and body shape and how it looks and image and Andrea said, "I don't care what my body looks like. I just want to have a body."

Yep. Same. That hit. Yeah. That really hit. That is like I want that moment in that documentary for everyone. Like I wish I wish those two sentiments specifically like on everyone.

Yeah. What is what is your favorite song on the album? And also I want to know what anniversary is how do you how do you what was the origin of anniversary and what is it about to you?

I love like nobody sits down with the song writer it's like what is anniversary about? It's like it's so it's such a friend conversation.

Terrible. No, it's just it's we're having such a friend conversation. I love it so much. Um, my favorite song on the album is impossible for me to choose. Okay.

It is impossible for me to choose. Every one of those songs to me is like it cuts like a knife. Like they are so important to me, those songs.

And that's new. I am 44. Katherine just reminded me I'm not 45. I'm 44. I've never felt about songs the way I feel about these 10 songs.

Um, like I won't take any [ __ ] about them either. Like I won't take any criticism.

I'm not taking it. I I'm not going to read any reviews. I don't want to know. Um,

so I don't I don't have one. Okay. I could tell you why I love each one. Mhm. Um, but yeah, I don't have a favorite because some of them I I'm uncomfortable with, you know, Anniversary is one of these ones that like makes my skin crawl.

Why? That I wrote it. Uh, and I didn't like singing it and I I felt like so self-conscious and uneasy with it as a concept. It was really the inside part out and I just didn't really

know that I wanted to do that. And in fact, right up until, as a writer, I think you can probably relate to this. Right up until the final day of turning in the master, I told myself, I don't have to put it on there.

Yeah. I don't have to. I can take it off and do a cover or I can just be nine songs. There's nine song albums.

Right up until the moment that I said approved on the master, I had to like make myself calm down by like telling myself I wouldn't didn't have to put that song on there. That's so weird. What What is it about it? It's just I don't know. I don't like how stream of consciousness it is. I just really don't want you to see that far in

to my thinking. That's so interesting. Yeah, it's so wonderful to see that far into your thinking.

It's so good. I promise. I'm not saying it's a good experience for you, but it's a good experience for us.

Wow. Okay. So, when I was listening to the album, I kept thinking what I wrote down all over my whiteboard like a beautiful mind situation by the time Abby had woken up is I was thinking about this thing that happened that I've told the Pod Squad many times when Tish was like seven or something. I woke up in the middle of the night and she'd run into my room. She used to do that in the middle of the night and like stand above me very cripply until I woke up. It was very strange. Yeah. And so she was doing that thing and she had this like terrified look on her face when I opened my eyes and I said, "What's wrong?" And she said, "I woke up and I'm all alone in there and it was dark and I'm all alone in there." And I said, "That's [ __ ] sleeping. That's what sleeping is.

Go back." And she said, "No, mom. I'm all alone in here. Like, I'm all alone in here and you can't get in and I can't get out." And it was like her first existential crisis. like she had returned to herself enough to notice

Uhhuh. that what's inside of us is like this separation from each other. Uhhuh.

And that was terrifying for her. And I felt like as I was listening to every song that every song is sort of about that. It's like can we be known? Are we all alone in here? Like Woman Overseas is about Cath, but it's not really. It's about you whether you know her or not. And like Joanie is like about do you know her or not or are you separate or Eva is like the separation or nobody knows us. It's like over and over again like are we all alone in here? Do I know you? Do you know me? Do we ever really know each other?

Yeah. Like when you return to yourself it's like you remember I'm all alone in here. Like I'm just like a little cup of the ocean.

Yeah. And I'm stuck. Isn't there's like a line in there about like too much truth and if I'm

something about being in jail if I return to myself, couldn't I find myself in jail?

Yeah. Like it's like the jail of separation. Am I making this up? No, you're not making it up. It's true. It's all really true.

It's so interesting. So when I'm listening to the long goodbye and it makes you want to my every ache in me is just like I'm thinking okay the way I can handle this being true which is that

life is a long goodbye. Relationships are a long goodbye. Like we we make we get together and then we're like I guess we'll do this life thing which is we'll walk each other to the end. We'll walk each other home

as Ram DS used to say. Then I have to believe that the reason that ache is inside of us is because being that separate is actually not the ultimate truth.

Yeah. Right. That like Yeah. It's not the long goodbye ends with like the first real hello.

Mhm. Which is no more cup all ocean like all back together. Yeah. And that's why I think that's that's no more cup all ocean all back together. Yes. That's what I believe.

And you just do the all ocean now. Well, no. I'm not. I'm I'm evolving. You know, I withdraw. You know, sometimes my cup is tequila. Sometimes I'm, you know, I'm I'm cheeky and and carnal and and selfserving in ways that I I don't mind. But that is the ultimate truth for me. And I I like I know that. But I do feel like we live in a time and an age where the pursuit of the self is seen as a virtue

and like the evolution that's like, you know, closest to enlightenment is this inward journey.

And I the parts of that that I know are true bother me. Um but the parts of it that I know are not true bother me more. Tell me more. Because that's it. It's like yes, you can find God and truth in self and yes, you can find God and truth in others.

Yeah. But it can't be either or, right? Yeah. So, what part I mean there's a line that's like the great I don't want to bow to the great and mighty me.

That is that what you're you're saying that the emphasis the cultural emphasis on individual on self that there's something missing there that doesn't feel true.

Well, is it evolving turning inward? It's an easy way to be only kneeling at the altar of the great and mighty me. It's like that that in some ways the journey into self it just ends with, you know, it it ends in there. It's a dead end road,

you know. At least if we're going to do it, and we probably should do it, we can remove the blockage at the end of the road so that it's circular. it comes back out into the world again, you know, and actually I think that's what the philosophy, you know, is getting at. But it's just that I I feel like there are too many voices, there's too much noise, there's too much wellness, there's too many

um there's too much influence to just serve the self. If it bothers you, cut it off. If you don't understand it, stop having the conversation, you know. Um,

it it's like um and that is seen as as as growth and evolution in in like the day and age that we're living in. And I'm like, "No, if you don't understand, keep asking the question." You know, not to the point where we're getting into territory of like self harm, you know, by like maybe going back to a toxic person or going back to a toxic place and trying to re-engage and trying to re-engage. That's different. That's where we are veering into into something that that's hurting us. But I do believe that the pull toward others, toward the sacrificing of the self, of the identity, it frees us. It frees us from our ego because self and identity

are like the problem. That's the cup, you know? Yeah. It's like which what's self? What are you talking about? Are you talking about ego? Are you talking about personality? Are you talking about like the soul, the part that is connected to everyone else? The whole I and the father are one

self, which is a different self. Yeah. Yeah. I am this. I am this. I am this. And I'm like,

I am yours. I am yours. I am yours. [ __ ] Okay. Um, you know how you tell that story about how when you were little or it might have been last year, I don't know, but when you hear the sound of gravel,

car wheels on a gravel road that you get wheels on a gravel road. My favorite my favorite songs of all time.

And tell us why. Tell us the gravel because I want to tell you what gravel means to me after you tell yours.

Oh, okay. Well, I want to know. I just I've always had a dirt road. I've always lived on a dirt road. I still live on a dirt road

that I could probably afford to pave, but I don't I love the sound of carwheels on a gravel road because they just somebody's coming.

Somebody's coming and like what's it going to be? Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? What are you going to say? Are we going to like eat together? Are we going to fight? Are we going to like watch a movie or are you just going to sit quietly and read your book? But we're going to be together. Somebody's coming to be with me. You know, something new is about to happen. That's a car wheels on a gravel road to me.

So, I grew up in a house with a long gravel road. Okay. Forever long gravel road. And the sound of gravel of carwheels on a gravel road to me makes me clench

and makes me like So for me, when I heard carwheels on a gravel road, it meant I got to I'm I can't be myself anymore. Like I I automatically had a feeling of I have to get up. I have to do something. I used to like

be relaxing and then I'd get up and look try to look busy. Like in my family, it was like you you don't lay around. Like I was raised by a football coach. It was just like no pain, no gain. You're as you didn't lay. Nobody laid. Okay.

But whenever you I hear you tell that, I'm like, "Oh my god." Like you say, "Somebody's here." And I think somebody's here. Wow.

Like my performant self has to come out. It's just so interesting to me that you can have two such different responses to your most comfortable place. I guess mine would be alone

and yours is like what's going to happen and I'm like what's going to happen? But okay, but when Okay, so let me go I want to I actually want to get into this. So when you would hear the car wheels Yeah. on a gravel road. Were there ever times where you were like, "Oh god, okay, look busy, brush my hair, put on clothes, wake up, and be that Glennon, you know, like snap out of the aloneeness, that space that you go into when you read and when you're like, you know, using your amazing [ __ ] mind."

Like, was there ever a time that that company surprised you though and you were like, "I didn't want this, and I'm so glad they're here. I'm so glad to be with this person now." Was there ever a time when you were surprised by how you felt when that face ended up at your door?

Only when I have been in recent learning how to not perform. Okay. And I think that Abby and I have now found like a little rag tag group of people

that when I hear the equivalent of their tires, I feel like I can just continue.

Okay. That I don't have to change. Yeah. Yeah. And that feels like maybe the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me somehow

is finding people that like when you say I have people I can be alone with. What I hear is, "Oh, I get that now." Like I have people that I can still not change for.

Yeah. Or not perform for. Yeah. And I guess that's a real friendship, a real community.

So now I think I get it. But I just think of what you have taught me and you and Kath have taught me about finding love and and community and space with others and in an outward way.

Yeah. That has truly changed the way that Abby and I do things. Yeah. And um I just always think about the gravel as the difference. Like you're learning to be comfortable with stuck in a barn and I'm learning to be comfortable with people are coming and I'm not stuck in a barn.

Get me to a barn, Dad. Well, I mean I we've stayed at each other's houses before, you know, like we've spent at nights with each other like in succession. You've been to my house state. I've been to your house and stayed. And so we've had like pajama hangs and stuff like that, you know, and watch TV and and so like we have found ways to like drop down with each other like our two families. But I'm always conscientious about the temptation even that I feel about wanting to extract the glennonness from your mind. Like when I'm when I'm with you, it's like in that mind are some of the most powerful and interesting sentiments. Like this perspective that's going to be expansive. It's like you're I could talking to you is like binging my favorite show.

And so I have to like fight the temptation to not switch you on and pull from from you, you know? And and it makes me wish that like because sometimes I do.

It makes me wish there was like a thing where it was like what Glennon likes for fun is A, B, and C because then I could do that for you and give back. You know what I mean? that

if I could take you fishing, then I wouldn't feel so bad about like calling you to talk through my family member who's an alcoholic and that I need to have a a a refresher and how to deal with that. I wouldn't feel so bad about calling you to like work through a problem, you know, cuz I would be able to take you fishing.

That's so cool. Or like play Monopoly with you or whatever it is that's like Glennon does this for fun, but what you do for fun is like is like what is it? It's a good question. And you did say to me the other day, which I have been thinking about non-stop. It possibly your you didn't say it this way. You can never say it this way,

but it was something like maybe you're so upset because you're not obsessed with you're not obsessed enough with anything else.

I said maybe you're not obsessive enough. Which by the way, I can't stop thinking about really.

You had this album. Like you're surviving this time. This is what cop says do you

because you are making this album which I'm looking at and thinking that's so [ __ ] weird because this album is everything everyone needs to hear right now and it will be so healing and I know that I'm not like it will be it's going to hit everybody where what they need to hear in this moment and you were obsessing and making it during this time and there's just something so beautiful about that I did I told Abby about that I'm like oh I just need to start writing again maybe.

Well, you're doing it, too. It's like my tools are so simple. Like I know what my tools are. And you're right. Like I I feel like I'm helping. I'm helping. I'm I'm using my tools and I'm doing my gift and I'm helping because like my gift is like I'm an unhardener of of hearts. I'm a I'm a this. I'm a that. And like I know what my purpose is and I've got my tools in my right hand and my left hand. And so I'm going to work. And yeah, there is something really single-minded and focused about that. But you're doing that too all the time. And so is Abby,

you know, your mind expanders. Unh hardener of hearts. That's so good. What do you want, what that we haven't talked about? Do you want people to know about this album or you right now or anything?

I mean, this is why, you know, I wanted to come here. This is why I wanted to talk to you. It's like we could talk about credits and who played on it and who produced it and we could talk about technical stuff and recording studios and vintage guitars all day, you know, and I'm going to do that for the rest of my day, but this is where, you know, we come to to talk about this about this angle on the album.

And so I'm really only interested in talking about what you're interested in. Do you think that this whole returning to yourself is something that you're going to continue? Are you just going to be like that's good onward. That was a nice experiment.

That one. And okay. Yeah, that one. This will be the only album probably like it. Like when I feel Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I'm I'm never I've never been an observational songwriter. I am self-revealing in my in my songs, but there's only ever like two or three or four of them on an album, you know.

Mhm. Cuz I'm in a family band and and it's um that's a really beautiful way to be and I love being that way. But this is that one time where it just isn't like that.

And uh and I don't Yeah, I don't think that this continues. Okay, so you guys, what Brandy is saying is that you need to [ __ ] pay close attention to this album, right? It's not. We We will not pass this way again.

Yeah. This is the last time I'm I'm getting in that barn. Yeah. Next time I'm in that barn, I'm going to have a fishing pole. I'm going to have a Zelda game. I'm going to have at least four other people.

Yeah. I love you. I love you guys so much. Thank you. It was a gift that to reveal as much as you did. I just have one last question. Was it tricky? Like was it uncomfortable at all to write as honestly as you did? Like I'm thinking in particular about you and Kath.

Yeah. Well, Katherine, that's a really good question because first of all, you have so much in common with Kath. I know you're going to totally understand this, but Katherine is such a writer.

Yes, she is. Um, and she's such an artist that I sent her two of these songs, the ones that are right on the edge of Okay. and I said, um, we'll probably have to talk about these, you know, but she just wrote back, "These are two of your best songs. We don't we don't have to talk about it."

Oh my god. She just really respects you as an artist. Yeah. And I And I really respect her as an artist.

And I I when I listen back to those songs now, I hear how enamored I am. Yeah. Oh my god.

With Cath. It's just It's about being enamored. It might come off in another way, but it it is what it is.

It doesn't I said what I said. set. It's a It's a real also it's a real gift to the lesbian community because we're just always having to act perfect

and like we've like we have the most perfect [ __ ] non-human marriages ever so that we don't let down our tokenism as a proof it can work or whatever the hell that thing is.

Yeah. So God, it just felt it g it is it is a permission to be just a smidge human.

Yeah. In relationship too. It's a gift. Yeah. I think so too. I I hope that I can't control how people take it, but I hope they take it that way and they they know that there is a glimpse into the I don't like the word normal, but into the like relatability of like all relationships so that all relationships can be valued equally.

Yeah. I also think you know you did it if the person even if you're telling the truth about them, but the person seems even cooler after the song's over. Like Kathy seems even cooler after that song's over. It's like like a witchy energy of like which is what she is. But that's how I felt. I was like, "God, she's so cool."

She is cool, man. Yeah, she's as cool as they get. She's too cool. She's over there saying, "Oh god, is your mic muted because it's red?"

No, they would have told me that. Okay. All right. We're done. You guys are free to go. You are free to return to yourselves. I know it's a lonely thing, but it's the only thing. We love you.

It's the only thing to do. Bye. We can do hard things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and we can do hard things show on Tik Tok.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself"?

Glennon Doyle (Host), Brandi Carlile (Guest), Katherine Carlile (Guest).

What is "Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself" about?

Brandi Carlile's new album, "Returning to Myself," marks a deeply personal exploration of her emotional landscape and past experiences, showcasing her most vulnerable and raw self. The conversation highlights the significance of the album in her life and the transformational journey she undertook, offering fans a unique insight into her artistic evolution and personal narrative.

What is mentioned in this We Can Do Hard Things episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Returning to Myself, Brandi Carlile, Katherine Carlile, The Long Goodbye, Joan Baez (Joanie), Aaron Desner. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself"?

The episode runs 1 h 6 min; the transcript is about 11,468 words in 233 timestamped sections.

More from We Can Do Hard Things

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 15, 2026.