Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!

What this episode is about

Cynthia Erivo discusses her journey as a Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning actress, highlighting her role as Elphaba in the film adaptation of "Wicked" and the release of her new book, "Simply More." The conversation delves into her personal growth, the importance of self-respect, and her approach to choosing roles and making life decisions.

Key takeaways

• From pajamas to Broadway, Cynthia Erivo proves that elegance can start at home and change the world.
• Gain's new laundry line lets fans sniff the roses—and perhaps some magic! Who knew Oz had a scent?
• Cynthia's ritual of dressing for bed teaches: self-respect isn’t about others’ views; it’s your personal armor.
• In an era of fast fashion, Erivo champions loungewear as a daily celebration of self, not just a routine.
• Simply More isn’t just a book; it’s a journey into authenticity, reminding us that every moment matters.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Glennon Doyle (Host) · 24 min speaking
• Cynthia Erivo (Guest) · 36 min speaking
• Amanda (Guest) · 6 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Wicked, Cynthia Erivo, Simply More, Ariana Grande
2. 5:00 – 10:00: Simply More
3. 10:00 – 15:00: Wicked, Simply More
4. 15:00 – 20:00: Wicked, Gain
5. 20:00 – 25:00: Wicked
6. 40:00 – 45:00: Wicked
7. 55:00 – 59:51: Wicked, Simply More

Notable quotes from "Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!"

• Ariana Grande's Glenda in part one of the record-breaking film adaptation of the hit musical Wicked. Wicked part two is being released this week on November 21st. And Cynthia's…

  about Wicked · at 1:15

• Limited edition laundry collection lets fans experience the magic and joy of Oz with three new scents. The new Gain Wicked forgood collection lets fans get sent to Oz. Love…

  about Gain · at 41:16

• Well, Cynthia, you're allowed to dress as Alpha because you are her. I am not.

  about Ariana Grande · at 56:07

• Really wonderful and like really like super affirming. You can't imagine. I'm This book means so much to me. I'm I was really my book agent was badgering me forever and ever. He was You have to write something. you have to.

  about Simply More · at 56:53

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Cynthia Erivo — Person · Main guest · 1 mention · first at 0:33
  Primary interview subject; discusses her career (The Color Purple, Wicked), her book 'Simply More', and personal themes like trust, boundaries, and authenticity.
  Ariana Grande's Glenda in part one of the record-breaking film adaptation of the hit musical Wicked. Wicked part two is being released this week on November 21st. And Cynthia's…
• Ariana Grande — Person · Referenced collaborator (co-star) · 1 mention · first at 1:13
  Mentioned as Cynthia Erivo’s co-star in the Wicked film adaptation, framing the on-screen pairing of Elphaba and Glinda.

Books & papers

• Simply More — Book · Primary recommendation · 4 mentions · first at 1:30
  Cynthia Arivo's new book offering insights into her life and journey, discussed extensively in the episode.

Media & podcasts

• Wicked — Media · Core topic · 13 mentions · first at 0:00
  The musical and its film adaptation are central to the discussion, especially Cynthia Arivo's role as Alphaba.

Sponsors

• Gain — Company · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 18:24
  Sponsor of the episode, promoting their Wicked for Good limited edition laundry collection.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Wicked fans everywhere know what Oz looks like. And now, for the first time ever, they'll know what Oz smells like because Gain's Wicked forgood limited edition laundry collection lets fans experience the magic and joy of Oz with every sniff.

0:29 Well, we can do hard things, people. Today we have the alphaba herself, Cynthia Arivo, who I knew was going to be magic. And I had absolutely no idea how mindblowing and heart swelling and life-changing spending an hour with this force of nature is. Just hold on to your little witch hats because this is a ride. Cynthia Arivo is a good is a Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning actress, singer, and producer. She burst onto West End in Broadway stages in The Color Purple. Oh, silly. And has since taken the world by storm. Arivo most recently starred as Alphaba opposite Ariana Grande's Glenda in part one of the record-breaking film adaptation of the hit musical Wicked. Wicked part two is being released this week on November 21st. And Cynthia's brand new book, Simply More, which is such a beautiful offering to everyone who wants to know how she became as magic as she is, is available today. This conversation is

1:40 surprisingly personal. She teaches us how she learned to trust, ask for help, how she um prepares and chooses roles, how she makes decisions in her life. This conversation is an offering.

1:55 Enjoy. Hello. Hello. How are you? Good. Oh, we're so excited. We've just been laughing.

2:10 We've been We've been just talking and laughing about how excited we are to meet you in real life right now. And we were just

2:18 giggling about for your book is so wonderful. And you were just giggling about this part in it that made us realize we have no self-respect at all and really really

2:31 just epitomizes your freaking elegance and selfrespect which is the fact that you get dressed up for bed.

2:40 No, I do. So good. I've been doing it for for a long time. I just I don't know. fashion sort of like has a through line in my whole entire life and I I don't know when but I realized that if I feel really good before bed I I don't know the evening just feels better. So I have like matching pajamas and sometimes it's like loungewear that feels really good and it's there's always an outfit. There might be a robe to go with the pajamas. There's always a slipper that matches the pajamas and the robe. Yeah, it's a real thing.

3:13 How early do you transition to this? Is it like I'm home for the day? Now I'm getting into my

3:20 When I'm home for the day, there's like loungewear to be in. I cannot be in the clothes that I've been in the whole day

3:27 when I'm home and I'm not going anywhere. But I don't get into my pajamas before before that. So if I'm home late enough and I know that the next thing I'm do is going to bed, then it's pajamas immediately. But I pick the thing. I'd never just like let's throw on these. It's never been that. So, is it three outfits mainly a day? You're out out in the world.

3:48 I mean, it depends on the day. It really depends on the day. It really depends on the day. It depends on the day. Truly, if I'm if I'm just work me going to work like a I'm on a set and I'm coming back. I dress up even though I'm only wearing these clothes for the journey to the set and then I'm putting on a costume and then coming.

4:09 Wow. Cynthia, I don't know. It just I just feel good. You know, if I start the day the way I want to start the day, then everything else sort of like follows after that. And if I come back and end the day how I want to end the day, coming back to myself, I guess maybe that's what it is. Maybe finding the outfit and finding the thing that I want to wear to to rest. Um, also is a way of like reentering, I think. Yes,

4:36 you know, making a decision that's just for me, not it doesn't matter if anyone sees it, you know,

4:42 and it's like setting a boundary, too. It's like how it's like the my friend says when she picks up her wine, which maybe this isn't the healthiest boundary

4:51 but that's her way of being like, it's [ __ ] over. Like, nobody I am not responsible for anyone else.

4:56 The day is done. I'm not leaving. Yeah. Cool. Amanda, tell Cynthia what you were wearing when you read that part in her book. Oh, [sighs] it was like a personal intervention to me because I was reading the book and I was wearing a sweatshirt and like offensively old like shorts and I realized that I had been that is what I wore the night before to bed and had been wearing it all day and was about to go to bed in the same thing. And then I'm and and I was like, [gasps]

5:31 you know, the solve to doing that, finding something that feels similar and you just get multiple pairs of it.

5:37 Mhm. Okay. Mhm. So that the refreshes, there's always a refresh, but you know, it's comfortable.

5:42 Mhm. I have like certain brands that I go and wear to bed and I I just rinse repeat. I find the things that I like. I get them in several different colors and I know that, oh, this feels really nice. Actually, today I want to do I want the wide trousers. actually I want the really like thin trousers or I want the long sleeve or it's the same brand but they it's the same it's like a uniform that I like to wear.

6:03 Yeah. Yeah. It reminded me of the book throughout the book where you're talking it's just so dignified. It's such a self-respect thing to be like this matters not because I'm going out in the world but because I'm in to myself.

6:17 That's right. And that there is no big days or small days that like every it's a big moment because I'm here with me. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

6:27 I love that. Speaking of very big moments. Yes. This is a big week. So on this day

6:35 today, your book Simply More comes out and it is so beautiful. It's so beautiful, Cynthia. It's so beautiful.

6:44 Thank you very much. Thank you. It's very honest. I I haven't really like um held anything back necessarily and I didn't I don't know if that's what I intended when I when I started but I think as I started like as the words kind came out as I started figuring out things and I I think even this was sort of a discovery oh that's the thing I learned. So and then then it just became really raw and honest. So, I'm I'm so excited to a little bit trepidacious and scared, but I'm really excited to share it with people. And, you know, I've had some real sort of like bumps along the way and I've had to really learn some things about the world, about what I do and about me in the process.

7:25 Um, so to be able to share just even little like kernels of it is really helpful. Can you hear my dog in the background?

7:32 Yes, those are one of your two pups. I'm so excited. They're wonderful. Can I May I have them come and please?

7:40 Of course. Hold on. Give me two seconds. They are wanting mama. Come on. There you go.

7:50 Hi, baby. Okay. So, you might hear them jingle and jangle. They've just been wandering around, but she's sort of like This is Gigi. The other one is over there who's Caleb, who they're sort of sweet. They they're with me a lot. Uh they they've been with me on days when it's really really tough and they've been very very helpful,

8:13 little spirits. So yeah. How are they helpful to you? [snorts] Um they've got very different personalities. Um Caleb is sort of his own entity. He kind of wanders kind of he always does a wrecky of a place. Well, when I say a wrecky, he like searches a place out, wants to know where it is, and then when he's done, he sort of just goes away and it's like everything's safe. Gigi is like uh my shadow.

8:37 She's currently right here. She just wants to be next to me and she's they're both very good at at knowing when something is up or I'm not feeling very good because they come right next to me. They come right to me and they just want to stay in the space. Yeah. They're both just really on the on days when I've been alone and and I felt very lonely, these two little spirits have been very very helpful. Yeah.

9:02 Yeah. I always wonder if people who are well known in the world, beloved, ambitious, all the things. It feels like those people that are in my life have very special connections with their animals.

9:16 Yeah. And it I always wonder if it's like a singular being that the reason I love my dogs is because they're the only beings I know who love me more the less I do and the more still I am and the less I I move around. almost such I had never thought about it that way. [snorts] I've never thought about it that way. And that is actually the truth. The less I do, the stiller I am, the happier they are. If I'm just sat still and they can just lean or lounge on me, happy. Very, very. She's literally just This Gigi is sat right here doing absolutely nothing. And she is pleased as punch. She's like still as anything. She looks like a little cartoon character sat by me.

10:04 It's like And it's the the same for the other one. If if I'm It's when I make too much noise and I'm moving around that he just he does

10:14 Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed. Yeah. Just that. When will she see

10:22 That's how we want to be loved, right? Just for doing nothing. Just for being ourselves.

10:27 Yeah. They don't want anything. When you become an empire unto yourself as you've become, is it hard to find people who can mirror that kind of love? Because you're I mean, I'm sure there's so many people are like, "You could do this. Why don't you do this? Everybody will make more money if you do this." Like, is it is it hard to find that in people as opposed to animals? I think if I was to I think if everything was to have happened now,

10:56 it would be really difficult. I think because it's taken time. I've been really lucky in that I've picked up my people along the way.

11:03 And those same people that I picked up along the way. Some some are not there along the journey anymore. But those who are with me on the journey are still with me on the journey. So I could call my best friend and we'll still he'll still cuss me out if I'm doing something stupid. Do you know what I mean? Right. And my best friend that I did a show with when I was in two, it's 2013 when absolutely nobody knew who I was. Well, we will still call and cry over the phone and talk about everything. That's my she's my her daughter is my godaughter. So, so, you know, I still have really good um uh groundwork before coming into all of this. So, but but I do think if it was now,

11:46 right, it'd be really hard. I'm I feel like I'm a good judge of character. So, I have picked up new friends along the way. Um, because I feel like people reveal themselves to me quite quickly. I'm not sure why, but it happens. So, I know I can know about a person really really fast. People tell me about themselves very very fast. Um, and I I'm, you know, I I try to honor that because I I something about me makes people feel comfortable enough to share themselves. So, I try to uh hold that. But, but I also know when people aren't right for me quite quickly. Yeah.

12:19 How do you decide who to trust? I don't know. It's a feeling. I think it's just a feeling. And sometimes sometimes I'm not necessarily in the place to trust anyone. And so there there's definitely moments where it's just like everyone stay over there. I'm going to be over here. But there are other times when it where it feels really uh easy, you know?

12:40 Yeah. I think people reveal themselves unknowingly. And so those people I can always spot those who are just like I just want to be there for you.

12:49 Mhm. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Your book is coming out today. Yes. Uh Wicked Part Two is coming out on Friday. This is Okay. So my daughter uh was Alphaba for Halloween is obsessed. We have been listening to the soundtrack just trying to derive meaning and and

13:14 put symbols together and that this song is this and and she she is it is like a total immersion program for her and I can imagine that that is happening all over the globe right now. So I wonder for you like what does it feel like in this moment in this particular universe we're in

13:34 where everything is everyone is in need of a lot of influence and a lot of meaning and everything

13:39 to be in that position where where you are about to influence the world in such a grand way. Does that what does that feel like in your body to know that that is happening? I think part of me is shutting the um immensity out a little bit

13:57 so that I can manage it as it comes, you know. So, I'm really I'm really um moved by how much people have connected with this this character, these characters, this music, those words. Um, but if I if I took on the whole thing, I don't think I'd be able to really function very well. So, I take it on like bite-size. I think my favorite moments are when I meet an individual who says this means this to me or I listen to this song when I'm feeling really down or I listen to this song to get myself hyped up or you know that then I can take it in pieces

14:37 and then I can really appreciate in the moment what's going on, you know. Yeah. I think that's what's helpful.

14:45 Well, I'll tell you one little story of my wicked story. Um, we have a mutual friend, Levia Jai Jones. She's a Yes,

14:53 I love her. I love her. That's my big sister. Oh, I she's uh been my dear friend for a very long time, too. And like real life friend, not just like, you know, interwebs friends. Yeah.

15:06 And we've done a lot of um racial justice organizing work together. And usually Levy gets puts me in charge of the white ladies. So that's an exciting time for me.

15:16 Um she's smart. She's like, I'm not going anywhere near those people. She says they're going to ask to talk to the manager and you are the manager.

15:26 Yeah. Um so we've been through a lot of that kind of work together. Yeah. And when I saw Wicked in the theaters with my family, I saw it, you know, we see things as we are. And I saw it as an incredible story about

15:46 patriarchy and fascism and women who bind together and the limitations when black women and white women try to work together

15:56 and how white women often um uh are on board until their proximity to power is threatened and they choose

16:06 the empire above. So, I left the theater crying and my first text was to Lovey and I didn't explain any context of where I was. I just said, "I will always get on the broom with you."

16:21 Did she know? Did she get it immediately? Immediately. Immediately. She She got it immediately. I know she got it immediately. Yeah, that's her.

16:32 Does that Is that how you see Wicked? Is that how everyone sees Wicked? like what it

16:38 some it's interesting people see it very some people see it like that some people see it don't see it at all some people see the friendship and how they've been tested and how they have different things to do or they have different decisions to make and some people see it as a betrayal because she doesn't get on the broom but some people see it as like a decision that she's had to she she has to make because that's the way she can do good or believes she can do good or some people see it as a seduction of of what what could be or something that she's always wanted. Now it's in front of her and she has to decide whether whether or not to leave it behind and and just chooses to leave uh her friend and and go with power. And I I think I can see all of that

17:23 as especially as the person who's playing the character. I can see how difficult it would be for Glinda to choose her and go on the broom. But I can also feel what a betrayal is when she doesn't. But I can also go maybe she's just not people aren't ready when when you want them to be ready. Sometimes it takes a long time for a person to go actually I think it's time for me to

17:47 get on the broom. I think it's time for me to go. It takes time for people to to get to that uh decision. We we don't always reach the same place at the same time. Uh and so there's no there's no blame in that. It's just as human beings and entities, we our journeys are different. We get to the same destination at very different times, you know, if we get to the same destination at all. [clears throat]

18:13 You know, so generous and beautiful. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free. Gain is sponsoring this episode of We Can Do Hard Things and Gain is on a mission to spread the joy of scent. They believe that good smelling laundry can make a mundane task more delightful. And why not if you are doing the important but not always thrilling task of laundry? Why not fill your space with good scents and good vibes at the same time? Because when you smell something good, you feel good. Okay, Glenn and Abby, speed round question. What are your favorite scents?

18:57 I love the smell of my kids heads, their hair. That is like home base for me. Yeah,

19:06 even when it's like a little gross. Um, also all things Christmas or holidays like

19:12 facts for you. pi pies baking and like pine needles and cinnamon which these are all just represented for me in candles because I'm not actually doing any of those things but candles that represent people cooking at Christmas.

19:26 That's good. Do you want to know mine? Please tell us yours. Okay. Fire burning

19:32 over a campsite fire. Like the anticipation for potential s'mores feels exciting. And then jasmine blossoming. I love the smell of jasmine.

19:42 That's a good one. [ __ ] what about you? Okay, mine are coffee, salt, air, and whatever the scent is of freshly cleaned floors when I walk into my house. And I think it's because coffee reminds me of the will to live. And salt air transports me to my happy place. And clean floors tell me the house is sparkling and all I have to do is relax. Have you noticed that like our favorite scents, people's most popular favorite scents fall into certain categories from nature like rose or citrus or pine, food like chocolate or bread or everyday comfort scents like baby powder and clean laundry. And that is why Gain wants you to experience the magic of scent with their new Gain Wicked forgood collection that lets fans get sent to Oz. Get it? [snorts] Love that. With three enchanting limited edition scents designed to transport you to the world of Oz. There's game detergent flings in fantabulous floral.

20:47 Love this alliteration. There's gain inwash scent boosters in wonderfulst woods and beautifical blossom beads. And gain inwash scent boosters in emerald charm and yellow brick wonder.

21:01 Usually I'm not that girl. See [clears throat] what I did there? Yeah, I see what you did. I really love the smell of the wonderfulst woods and the beautifical blossom beads. They It just makes me so happy. It's It brings this touch of oz right into our house. And we love Wicked. So we we love Oz in our home. And we want to thank Gain for supporting our show and spreading the the joy of scent. We love Gain and we love Oz.

21:37 I was going to ask about I mean your your journey and your generosity is profound throughout your whole book. And one of the very generous pieces that must have been so difficult for you is your journey with your father and kind of coming to terms with that um

21:57 the way that shaped kind of your life in many ways. Can you just are you willing to tell us a little bit of that story on the tube um platform and just what it kind of how you think how you kind of deconstructed that role throughout your life when you look back on it?

22:18 I I um I think so what happened was uh my [clears throat] father I I'd gone to pick up a travel card. We call it a travel card here. it were called be a metro card um from him at a tube station. We hadn't really

22:34 ever really been permanently in each other's lives. My mom really did give me the space to want to get to know my father and him the space to get want to get to know me. And it was never really the opportunity was never really taken um except for very occasionally. And he the one of the things that he would do was help us get a travel card to and from school. So we get a travel card, it would last a month and we'd be able to make our way to and from school. Uh at this point I was at uh in secondary school I want to say just coming into uh sixth form it's the bit before college and I meet him at the station and um he just uh decides he doesn't want to anymore.

23:15 So I I'm confused. So I I ask why. And at this point, as a 16 year old, I don't I don't really have um I'm not in possession of me not be getting angry.

23:33 I'm not I don't know how to not do that. So, I I lose my [ __ ] at the at the train station. I I was like, this one thing you have to do, and I don't understand why we're having this conversation right now. I remember the ticket office guy gets involved and says, "You shouldn't talk to your father like that." And I was like, "You need to be quiet. This is nothing to do with you. I have no idea

23:51 what is happening here. I don't understand why this is happening and you you need to get this. This is the one thing you do. Um, all of this goes on. We go back and forth and then he decides, I'll get the travel cards, but I never want to see you again. He gets the travel cards and goes off in the other direction. And I I I'm in shock. like it like I don't think I realized I would be in shock but I was in shock and I didn't realize it would hurt as much and it did hurt.

24:22 I go to get on the train and because I'm like in a days in tears I go in the wrong direction so I turn around to go in the other direction. He's coming in this I spot him coming in towards me and he passes me by like he's never met before.

24:37 That is the last time we had had a conversation. We have seen each other twice since then at a wedding and we have not spoken.

24:49 Two different weddings, two different times. One when I was 25, the last when I was I think 35, strangely enough. And we have not t we haven't spoken since then. And what I recognized as I've gone back is that from that moment on, I think I was trying to prove that I was worthy of being loved or trying to prove one day you'll see that you you've made a mistake.

25:19 But that doesn't sustain. Yeah. Other just it doesn't sustain. It doesn't work. and and you build up a sort of resentment that uh starts to color the things you do.

25:31 And I felt really closed off. And so I I think the first time I did any kind of therapy was probably when I was about 20, I want to say 26 or 27. The first time I did some therapy when I sort of realized that that had been a color in my life and the way I was treating other people was as if they were going to leave. So, I wouldn't really I'd never ask for help. I wouldn't um I would do most things on my own because I was sure that someone was going to leave. And so, instead of trusting that someone might be around and want to help, I would push people away immediately and just I'll do it myself. I don't need anyone to do this for me. Much of my life has been me getting things and doing things on my on my own. Now, whilst there's been a really wonderful character building thing in that and it means that I've grown in independence, um it meant that the my trust of people was was way was lacking.

26:33 Um and I didn't have much and I had I lost the ability to ask for help. And so when I get to this um sort of inflection point during The Color Purple, I I'm sort of drowning in all the things that are happening cuz it happens really fast. The Color Purple happens and all of a sudden there's loads of things to do and I have no idea how to do it on my own and I have no help. It takes someone in the show, I think it was my director, who was like, "You need help. You need an assistant. You cannot do this on your own. You cannot remember all these dates. You can't remember where you're going. You're going to show up late to everything if you're not careful. You're going to miss things.

27:18 You need help. And I really didn't know how to do that because I was sure I could just do it on my own.

27:25 Um, and at that point, I thought, I really have to figure out why it's so hard for me to ask cuz I just never I never did. I really didn't ask for help very often at all. I would be happy to help other people. I just wouldn't accept a lot of help myself. So, as time went on and I started sort of decoding and unpicking the the that thread that was going through my life, I had to relearn how to be a little more open to to getting help. And sometimes and also knowing that not everyone is going to abandon you. And also that if someone leaves that doesn't necessarily mean that they're abandoning you.

28:12 Sometimes it's necessarily for for them to leave. That that isn't an offense to you personally. That it is just another part of their journey and another part of yours. It doesn't mean that that's what everyone else will do. You know, I've had it's lots of learning, lots of un

28:30 That's so interesting. That's how you just described the alphaba Glenda situation.

28:35 Correct. Yeah. That's how you're seeing things now, which is That's how I see Yeah.

28:39 Yeah. That's so interesting. Do you think that your one of the things I loved so much about your book is just your

28:47 daily commitment to be seen, even if it means no props on an on a audition stage, even if it means no hair so that people can see your face.

28:57 Yeah. That's probably why people reveal themselves to you because you are so revealing of yourself to them. Do you think that has any mirror to that subway moment where you're not being seen?

29:07 I just I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. I'm I'm sure it does. I cuz I felt I remember feeling so small in that moment.

29:16 Um and and I've had moments after that that made me feel really really small and and invisible. Um, there's that moment in the book that talks about that that moment in drama school where I'm asked to sing for someone else where literally I'm meant to be invisible and just and my voice is the thing that is being used but I am totally unseen. And so I think that was a really like massive moment for me because it it struck a chord in that I I was so mad at myself because I felt like I had betrayed a myself and a gift that I had.

29:56 Yeah. Um and used it in the wrong way. I I felt like if if shame is a feeling that's the moment I felt I felt shameful. I felt shame in that moment because I felt like I had misused misused my gift. Um, and I never wanted to do that again. And I I realized that part of that was how I saw myself and how I wanted other people to see me. I never wanted to feel invisible again. But that meant in any way, shape, or form, I never wanted to walk into a room and have someone see somebody else. I didn't want to ever bring another person into a room unless it was bringing unless I was bringing another person into a room but it was through me. M

30:40 ah that's so be okay for the listener I want to give because everyone will see some part of their life and shame in that story

30:48 but this is when Cynthia during school has been overlooked given small roles constantly and and was not cast in one of the major roles and then the two women that were cast in the major roles got sick

31:03 and so instead of putting her on stage to sing the parts they asked her to go behind the curtain, sing for the parts while the women in the front who were sick lip synced.

31:15 Mhm. This is an analogy that so hurtful, but every when I heard that I thought immediately thought of like three moments in my life where I was like, I've done that. I have sold my

31:27 self to please people. Correct. And that's so so you but you're saying not only for it feels like a similar similar betrayal if you're doing it on behalf of lifting up someone else or if you're putting not even your true self forward.

31:46 Yes. I think so because there's something that comes from dis and it takes time obviously to discover who you are completely but if the journey if if there's like a daily commitment to finding out who that is you're always you're always revealing a little bit of yourself. You're always going to be committed to this is I Hi, I'm here. It's me. I'm just I'm I'm trying to show up as in as much of an authentic way as I possibly can. And the word authenticity gets used so often, but and and I don't know that everyone really knows what that that means, but it means even the the rough parts like, you know, when I I was I was when I go to the theater, I'm I rarely I have makeup on because I just did a photo shoot, but um when I go out and I go to the theater, I don't have I never wear any makeup whatsoever.

32:41 And I know that people will be like, "Can we take a photo? Do you want?" But I I also want people to to know that when you look at me, you you actually see me. This is what I wake up looking at. This is what I go to sleep looking at. So this is the person you see. This is the person you meet. So that you're never confused about who's stepping into the room.

33:04 And so I have tried my best to find ways to make sure that people understand that this is who you're going to get. So when we get on a set, sometimes people are immediately scared of me. I don't know why or immediately sort of um apprehensive about what I'll be like, but I'm the same as I am on the first day on the last day. So you the door is open. You can always come and talk to me and I will get to know every I I'm not a person that says I love you to every single person I meet. Mhm.

33:38 I am a person that will get to know you implicitly before I tell you I love you.

33:43 So that by the time I say it, I know that your daughter's name is such and such. She's going to this school. You drive this. You love your wife whose name is Rose. All of the information. So I know you. I that for me is the way I function when I'm moving through a space. I want to know people. You can't know everyone. And that means that the connections I make are really genuine. They mean something. And so the to the person who I make the connection with, they know it means something. It's not frivolous. I don't just throw it away. But that comes with I'm I'm okay with who I am. And so I'm going to keep revealing that person to you. And hopefully you'll feel comfortable enough to reveal that to me, too.

34:27 What's the hardest part of you to get comfortable? I ask a lot. And why I ask why a lot and I think that really freaks people out.

34:40 I I um I question things and I think people aren't used to a person going why I don't understand. Can you explain that to me?

34:51 Why would you say that? What does that mean? But genuinely wanting to know the answer. I think often we hear why or what does that mean or I don't understand as an attack.

35:03 Yeah. like I've said, so how come you don't understand immediately? But I actually genuinely am okay with not knowing the answer, so I'll ask for it.

35:13 You know, I also don't mind if you say, "I don't know." Then I go, "Okay, well, should we'll figure it out then?"

35:20 But I think that's a hard that's a hard part to accept of me. And I expect I think I'm I think I expect a lot of myself, so I expect a lot of other people.

35:30 That can be tough. Yeah. It was cool for me to read that in the book about even even in when you're in a meeting.

35:38 Yeah. Everyone goes to the what what are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing?

35:42 Yeah. Which if you don't ask why I'm here, [snorts] then you can what your way down any road that you're on the wrong road.

35:50 Then you realize why am I doing this? You're in a place that you didn't want to be in in clothes that you don't want to be in sitting with people you don't want to be with and you have no idea why. That's right. That's right.

36:03 And you'll set there. You just described a lot of people's lives. Yeah. This is the thing because we didn't stop to go, can you please explain to me what this will do for us or or or why I'm why I'm doing this?

36:14 Why do I need to to to do this? Why do I want to do this? And if a person can't give you an answer, we should probably not do that then.

36:25 That's so good. Well, [ __ ] Cynthia. that would fix a lot of problems. No one knows why we're doing anything, but we've all agreed to the what we're going to do is we're just going to not ask because that makes everyone uncomfortable when you say, "Why would we do that?"

36:42 It's so crazy. And when it when I see it happening I'm the person that goes, "I'm so sorry. Excuse me. Sorry. Excuse me. I don't understand why we're doing this. Can someone please explain it to me?" and everyone's face goes staring blankly.

37:05 That's actually a really good question. It's a good question. Let's Let's We should Let's figure it out. Let's have a conversation.

37:14 Oh, that's so good. It really does. When you first It's a It's a It's a slippery slope. The moment the moment you don't understand why you're there, you must ask because it's going to keep getting worse and worse and worse.

37:27 And also people start expecting you to just say, "Okay, yeah, yes." But the second the second you go, I don't know about that. I'm not sure about that. Can you please explain it to me? You will be the person that she's going to ask. And you might occasionally get the h

37:44 because and you just [clears throat] put up with the and for me I'm like you can roll your eyes if you want to but you're going to thank me later when you understand why you're doing this and you're going to thank me when you don't have an answer and and I've taken that off your schedule and you don't have to do that anymore.

37:57 That's right. Exactly. Cynthia, is this part of the too muchness? I just want to know. I

38:04 because it's such a sweet offering. And by the way, I didn't expect the book to be as vulnerable as it is. I think it's a very You could have been much less generous. Yeah. With your personal stories, with your vulnerability. Really appreciated that.

38:19 Thank you. Is the asking the the wise is that part of this too muchness that you are now embracing and what does it mean to you to be too much?

38:27 Yeah, that that is that it's asking and finding out and getting all the information you possibly can get in order to make the decisions you want to make for your your life. And I think that a lot of us sort of abandon that. We abandon the pursuit of knowledge and knowing not just uh scholastically, not just because not just our books but but our lives like we knowing the information that that tells us what to do next or how to move next. I think the too much is too muchness is that I think the too muchness is how I show up in my in my body. the way I dress, the way I do my nails, all of those things.

39:08 Someone once said to me that my nails I have it in there. Someone said once said to me that my that someone was having a full-on discussion about whether my nails were a way to push people away. And I said, "How can that be when I spend three to four hours with someone literally this close to do them?" Yeah,

39:35 I spend 3 to four hours with a person that close and then when they're done, many people go, "Oh, can I see your nails?"

39:43 Yes, that was so beautiful. Mhm. I see your nails. Now I'm connect physically connected with a person I don't know.

39:51 And now we're having a conversation about nails. This doesn't push anyone away. It actually goes, "Oh my goodness, I want to this looks." It starts conversations consistently. For me, this is just another extension of creativity. It is these are the canvas that another person uses that I get to use in my life.

40:12 I get to tell stories with these or no stories with these. It shows a feeling. It shows a vibe. And and it's the same with what I put on. I dress for me. I don't know what going out clothes are. I have none. I have very many clothes that I love. There are no clothes that I save for going out. There are no clothes that I save for being in the house. It's all lovely.

40:34 I wear it all whenever I feel like wearing it. That's it. There are no special bags, no special shoes, no special clothes. They're all special. I wear them all the time. There's nothing I put aside for anything. And now it's time for our ads. Okay, how excited are we for the new Wicked for Good movie? H very. But there's more reason to be excited. Wicked fans everywhere know what Oz looks like. And now for the first time ever. You will know what it smells like because the new Gain Wicked forgood limited edition laundry collection lets fans experience the magic and joy of Oz with three new scents. The new Gain Wicked forgood collection lets fans get sent to Oz. Love that. With three enchanting limited edition scents designed to transport you to the world of Oz. My favorite is the Gain detergent flings infantabulous floral because when the laundry comes out it smells just delightful. And that's important because

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42:30 You are one of the most beloved actors of our time who refuses to act. You are like

42:37 never acting. How is this possible? Because I believe that to act is actually to tell the truth.

42:47 Yes, that's what I think it is. And you'll hear people have many different ways about it. Some method actors are method actors. I don't believe in method acting because I think it's dangerous. M

42:59 um and I actually think that really only men can do it. Say more, please. Because um the situations that that are told for women and the situations that are told for men usually are very very different. I I if we can I can play Lincoln. You like if someone is playing Lincoln, play Lincoln. And you're a president and you don't speak to everybody and that's fine. If I'm playing Tessa, who I'm playing right now, Prima Fashi, who is sexually abused, how can I how can I method act that? [clears throat]

43:42 Wow. How can I method that? Wow. Mhm. You know, and if we let's make it even like of let's say alphabet act being ostracized by everybody in who was around me. I'll drive myself insane.

44:06 I don't want to be in a place where every well no one talks to me. I don't actually want to be in that place because I've also experienced what it's like when you feel like you don't belong at all. I've actually experienced when no one is talking to you.

44:21 It doesn't feel good. I don't need to put myself through it to know what it feels like.

44:26 And so I am I [clears throat] am mining the things that I already understand, the things that I already know and and funneling them through my body into whoever I'm playing. Mhm.

44:38 So is the method acting for the men a simpler, more enjoyable, more familiar experience because they are playing roles that have power.

44:48 Correct. And the women are always whether art reflects life or life reflects art

44:54 playing people who right subservient roles. And so why have been hurt, have been abused, all of that that

45:02 now we get to shift that more often now and we have there are roles that are far more powerful for women which is amazing but I I don't of my friends of the people that I know who are spectacular. I don't they are not method actors

45:18 but they're brilliant. Cynthia talk to us about playing Jesus. Yeah. This was if you aren't a person who lives in LA. Scary.

45:29 Scary. When I So I I would have method acted that [ __ ] I So I have this I I my um barometer for whether I should play a role is how it makes me feel when someone says it out loud.

45:43 So I get the message from my agent and she says, "Sir, okay, they're doing a version of Jesus Christ Superstar and they would like you to play Jesus." I said, "A big pardon?

45:58 What did you say? They they think it might be a really good idea for you to play Jesus. I said, and because my manager knows me very well, she said I told them that's an amazing idea. I said, come [clears throat] again. Why? They just want to change something. They want to try something different. And I was terrified. Immediately terrified. I know what I look like. I know what I am. I know what's going to happen. The second this is announced. I knew it

46:31 immediately. And that is the reason I said, "Okay, fine, fine. Let's do it." So, I knew I would have to learn something about myself. I knew I would have to connect with my faith. I knew I would have to connect with um the the balance between masculinity and femininity and what that looks like and what that is and is it. And I I knew I would have to [snorts] find a way through it all to tell the story my way. I didn't want to mimic playing a man. Um, but I also didn't want to make it as feminine as possible. I was just like, what does that what is that in between space where it's just um a person with with energy that brings people in? What does that look like for someone who who who is connected to a spirit, a holy spirit, God? What what does that look like?

47:39 And I know that for those who read the Bible, it was it was really interesting because when it was there was so much there was both excitement and anger, nothing in between,

47:51 both the extremes. And for those who were really angry, I knew I knew that they hadn't really understood what what this faith is based on, which actually is love. To love one another as you would be loved. To do unto another as you would have done unto you.

48:16 We are all and we are all made in the likeness of God. all made in the likeness. I know that implicitly. And so I was like, but that's that's the through line. That's the truth. So if I know that's the truth, there's no reason I should be terrified of playing this role

48:37 because it's already it's already a part of me. So I can I can just funnel that and tell that. You can tell the story of a person who's in pain. You can tell the story of a person who's afraid. You can tell the story of a person who has a big journey ahead of them and they're just afraid to do it. You can tell the person who is who is betrayed by a friend. You can tell the story who loves uh and is loved. You can tell the story who is of a person who is lifted and pulled down. You can tell that all those are actually really human things.

49:10 And I can tell that in my body. I can do that. Yeah, you did. You did. All of LA was like in shock by the power and beauty of it for a good long.

49:23 I have to tell you, I didn't I was really overwhelmed by what happened after. I really didn't expect that. I I I knew we were doing something special. And in that in that space, I thought, well, this is amazing. That first night knocked me off my feet. I really didn't expect that reaction. You have to understand when that's as one person sitting in the center of the stage at the Hollywood Bowl. When there's 17,500 people screaming back at you, that's that's like a wave of of energy and and emotion that I just wasn't expecting to get. I just did I didn't for some reason I just didn't um I didn't know that that would happen. I just had no idea that that might be a situ that might be the situation. So when it happened, I I really tried to just hold the moment, be the character, stay there, wait till it's time to and I and I I feel it and then synthesis shows up and goes the [ __ ] And then I have to switch her off and

50:34 go Jesus. Jesus. You see it? There's like a moment that goes, yeah, oh my god. Oh my god, how that's what's happening in my brain.

50:48 And then I have to go I have to I have to I have to continue. Come back. Now we move on.

50:58 Wow. Yeah. So Cynthia showed up for a minute to be to be there. Receive that. Oh, that's beautiful. Actually,

51:06 I showed up. I was like I didn't and I didn't expect cuz it like knocked me out of myself cuz sometimes

51:12 it knocked the Jesus right out of you. Yeah. No, you you can like cuz you have to sort of make room for the characters sometimes sort of like you you're the vessel.

51:20 So the characters come through you and you make the room for them. You sort of sit yourself to the back. It's like a theater, you know, you move to the back of the theater while the character comes forward and they take up most space. And I was happily residing at the back of the theater, you know, existing and watching what's going on, sort of being the the the motor to which everything happens. And then it's like someone came to the back of the seat and like pushed me forward and I tripped up and was in the room.

51:51 That's so beautiful. And had to go. She won't move. I think I need to go back. I have to go back. I'm going to go back. I have to I have to go back. We have to we have to keep moving.

52:04 Your generosity is so It really moved me in the book when somebody wrote and said something about how women can't be Jesus, which is just what people have been saying since Jesus's time. So, it's not a surprising reaction.

52:19 But your response was so generous in that you thought, "Oh, that's so sad what she thinks of herself."

52:26 Sad. Yeah. Tell us about that. I think when other women put those kinds of um limitations on other women, I don't think it's really about the other woman. I really think it's about themselves. I think it's about how they've been treated their whole lives. I think it's about what they've been told about themselves. And I think it's about what they believe about themselves. And they can't possibly believe more of any other person.

52:55 Yeah. because they are now conditioned to believe that they have so little to give. And I felt like that was heartbreaking.

53:03 I felt like in a moment where where she could have seen how much more she has to give because of this character, because of this other woman who was able to do more. She only saw how little she has to offer and therefore how little she thought I had to offer.

53:22 Yeah. So when she's saying Cynthia, you can't you're not you can't be fully divine. You can't

53:28 she meant I can't I can't I can't I can't do it. Yeah. Is because it really read like someone it read like she was repeating what had been said to her.

53:41 Yes. That's what it read like I was like these aren't your words. These are someone else's words.

53:50 Exactly. They are using you as a mouthpiece. Oh, okay. And do you think that all of the like this um it it feels to me like the pajamas at the end of the day? Like is this insistence of your of yourself, your selfness always being forward, nobody else, no acting, this is me. Is that a way of drawing a boundary between your acting life and your real life?

54:16 I think so. Not getting lost. I think so. I think it's to make sure that people never forget that that beneath all of it that that with all of it is the human being

54:28 that it isn't a switch that comes on and off that in order to make all of this happen, the human being has to take care and be taken care of themselves.

54:40 Okay. Well, we have to let you go because you have seven million things to do, but I need to leave you with this.

54:44 Have a time already. I know. Is that crazy? I haven't. It feels like it's been 30 seconds. DO WE HAVE TO GO?

54:50 WELL, UM, you should know that real quick. I have like really interesting social anxiety and so I had to go to this party a while back and I decided I was going to go cuz I cared about the person. It was right after we had seen Wicked. I started describing my gender as I am Glenda presenting with an alphaba soul. I was obsessed with Alphaba constantly. Okay.

55:11 My children to help me get ready for this party. Yeah. Helped me dress up. Yeah. And I was dressed up as Alphaba. Okay. This I'm going to get. This was not a costume party.

55:21 Yeah, it was not a costume. It was not a costume party. I had on my full black dress, my collar, my my boots, my rings, my nails. I had on everything. And this was the way I was going to go and and be brave for this party.

55:32 Yeah. Cynthia, I walk into the party and Abby and I are walking down this small hallway. And the first person who we see walking towards us

55:42 is you. And I dive behind Abby like I've never I was It was a friend's birthday party. A friend's birthday party.

55:49 Sarah Pollson's birthday party. Oh my god. Yeah. And I hid from you cuz I was like I am dressed as Alphaba and Alphaba is walking in the room.

55:59 Oh my god. But the thing is I had my Alphaba coat on. You didn't see that leather jacket that I wore? You didn't see that long leather coat that I wore?

56:06 Yeah, it was gorgeous. Well, Cynthia, you're allowed to dress as Alpha because you are her. I am not.

56:11 Oh my god. I wish I wish you didn't die. I wish I would have given you the biggest hug in the world.

56:18 A Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. We We were actually headed out and so we just passed each other in the hallway and

56:29 I'd almost died. And she looks at me and she goes, "I'm wearing this dress. I'm wearing this."

56:36 And I'm like, "We're just going to keep walking." It's a whole family story. Now, Cynthia, you're you're a legend, not only in the world, but in our home. This hour has been more than I could have ever dreamed. I am so grateful that you are who you are in the world. It just makes all of us better.

56:51 Thank you very much. This has been really wonderful and like really like super super affirming. You can't imagine. I'm This book means so much to me. I'm I was really my book agent was badgering me forever and ever and ever. He was like, "You have to write something. you have to write something. And I'd be like, I don't not know. It's I don't think I have that much to say. He was like, you have a lot to say. I've been listening to you in your podcasts. I was like, I know, but those are just things that come out of me. Those are what just stories that I And he said, well, you should write them down. And I was like, I just I don't know. And then when we finally sort of did it, I I don't know. I I just I knew it was special to me. And so I'm really glad that you like it, that it has been helpful, and that you've enjoyed some of these stories, and that they've been meaningful because it really has meant a

57:44 lot to me to be on this journey of writing this and telling people what some of this journey looks like. That it all hasn't been like bright and flowery. That actually some of the learning has come from the the more the sort of darker parts of who I am and the things that I've experienced. And that actually that and forgive me if this sounds cliche that that from the darker parts there is always going to be light. That you can always find brightness and light and and uh and joy from the things that that have hurt that have that have pulled you into a dark space uh and and that have taken from you. that you can always that you can always change that and it can always get you to another place in your life. I it's just I'm really I'm glad to be doing this with you. I'm really glad to be speaking to both of you because if anyone knows you do. So, thank you

58:41 Cynthia. You're a dream. Everybody go pick up the book and give it to your friends and give it to your family. It's what we need right now. We need to not be shrinking. Um, and I won't even tell everybody to go see Wicked cuz they're already there. So, we'll talk about it next week.

58:57 While you're waiting in line for your Wicked tickets, you can bring your book. Right. That's right.

59:01 And I will say that this I wrote this like as a gift. I kept saying I really want this to be a gift for people. I really want to feel like a gift from me to everyone who gets it. That I want people to buy it for each other and and give it as a peace offering. And you know, I feel like that's mostly what a lot of my work is, that it it it wants to be an offering for people. So, this is one of those offerings.

59:22 Yeah, it sure is an offering. Thank you, Cynthia. Thank you so much to Gain for sponsoring this episode. We can do hard things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and we can do hard things show on Tik Tok.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!"?

Glennon Doyle (Host), Cynthia Erivo (Guest), Amanda (Guest).

What is "Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!" about?

Cynthia Erivo discusses her journey as a Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning actress, highlighting her role as Elphaba in the film adaptation of "Wicked" and the release of her new book, "Simply More." The conversation delves into her personal growth, the importance of self-respect, and her approach to choosing roles and making life decisions.

What is mentioned in this We Can Do Hard Things episode?

5 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Wicked, Cynthia Erivo, Simply More, Ariana Grande. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!"?

The episode runs 60 min; the transcript is about 10,602 words in 194 timestamped sections.

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