Transcript

INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!

From We Can Do Hard Things · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 21 min · 15,084 words · 330 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!", an episode of We Can Do Hard Things published October 2, 2025 (1 h 21 min, about 15,084 words). It mentions 11 people, works and ideas, including Indigo Girls, Melissa Ethridge, Amy Ray, Emily Sailors, Ethridge Foundation.

What this episode is about

The Indigo Girls, composed of Emily Sailors and Amy Ray, have made significant contributions to the music industry over four decades, advocating for various social justice causes while continuously producing acclaimed work, including their latest album, "Look Long." Melissa Etheridge, recognized for her powerful lyrics and distinctive voice, made a similar impact with her hits and the Grammy-winning album "Yes I Am," and continues to support critical issues through her foundation aimed at combating opioid use disorder.

Key takeaways

  • Indigo Girls: inspiring queer artists since the '80s, proving activism and artistry can go hand in hand.
  • Melissa Etheridge transformed personal pain into universal anthems, captivating hearts with her unapologetic authenticity.
  • Nervousness and excitement share the same physiological response—turning fear into fuel can be a game changer.
  • Even legends like Sailors and Ray grapple with stage jitters; every performance is a dance between doubt and passion.
  • Focusing on supporters, not critics, can redefine confidence—Liza Minnelli taught us that even greats can misread the crowd.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Indigo Girls, Melissa Ethridge, Amy Ray, Emily Sailors
  2. – 20:00: Emily Sailors
  3. – 30:00: Amy Ray
  4. – 1:10:00: Gabbor Mate, Imani Perry
  5. – 1:20:00: Ethridge Foundation, Imani Perry, Bucks County Playhouse

Notable quotes from "INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!"

  • Across four decades, 16 studio albums, and over 15 million records sold, the Grammyinning Indigo Girls, Emily Sailors, and Amy Ray continue to blaze the trail for generations of queer.
    about Indigo Girls · at
  • Remained one of America's favorite female singers for more than two decades. In June of 2020, Ethridge launched the Ethridge Foundation to support groundbreaking scientific research into effective new treatments for opioid use disorder.
    about Melissa Ethridge · at
  • Our dear friend Andrea Gibson who just passed always they used to say that their wellness check in every moment was am I paying attention to who isn't loving me or who.
    about Andrea Gibson · at
  • I mean I believe that like I was a religion major and I really love religions like to study how people live their how what you use as your construct to get through your life, you know. And.
    about Amy Ray · at
  • Beyond Race contextualizes so many things in such a beautiful way. So, she's my new love of writing.
    about Imani Perry · at
  • And we have our first production at Bucks County Playhouse. And the first show is like February 20th, 2026.
    about Bucks County Playhouse · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Melissa Ethridge — Person · Main guest (as referenced); touring artist with Indigo Girls · 3 mentions · first at
    Discussed as a major rock artist and activist; the transcript appears to intend Melissa Etheridge (common misspelling/ASR error). She discusses the Etheridge Foundation and plant-medicine research for opioid use disorder.
  • Amy Ray — Person · Main guest; member of Indigo Girls · 2 mentions · first at
    Co-lead of Indigo Girls; speaks extensively about songwriting, faith/spirituality, activism, and learning from younger queer activists.
  • Emily Sailors — Person · Main guest (as referenced); member of Indigo Girls · 2 mentions · first at
    Named as one half of Indigo Girls and discussed as a long-running queer artist and activist; however the transcript appears to intend Emily Saliers (common misspelling/ASR error).
    The trail for generations of queer artists in the mainstream. Committed and uncompromising activists, Sailors and Ray work on issues like racial justice and reproductive…
  • Imani Perry — Person · Referenced author recommendation · 2 mentions · first at
    Recommended as a writer whose work provides perspective and context (especially on race and the U.S. South); cited as a 'new love of writing.'
  • Andrea Gibson — Person · Referenced friend / quoted source · 1 mention · first at
    Cited for a 'wellness check' framing about focusing on who isn't loving you vs. who is; mentioned as having recently passed.
  • Gabbor Mate — Person · Referenced expert / author recommendation · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced as the author of 'The Myth of Normal' and recommended as a helpful, comforting framework for understanding trauma and healing; name appears as Gabor Maté (misspelled in transcript).
  • Liza Minnelli — Person · Referenced celebrity (anecdote) · 1 mention · first at
    Appears in a story about performance insecurity and misreading audience reactions (the 'one guy didn't stand up' anecdote).
    Hall that, the place is going wild and stuff like this. And she said, Yeah, but there's that one guy in back that didn't stand up. And then later she sees the guy going out in a wheelchair. And she's Fuck, I just, yeah, I gave away all.

Books & papers

  • Look Long — Book · Secondary subject · 1 mention · first at
    Latest record by Indigo Girls, described as a stirring and eclectic collection of songs.
    Rights. Indigo Girls was the first of six consecutive gold and or platinum certified albums. Their latest record, Look Long, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that…

Companies & orgs

  • Indigo Girls — Company · Main subject · 3 mentions · first at
    Grammy-winning musical duo discussed for their activism and music career spanning decades.
  • Ethridge Foundation — Company · Secondary subject · 2 mentions · first at
    Foundation launched by Melissa Etheridge to support research into treatments for opioid use disorder.
    Remained one of America's favorite female singers for more than two decades. In June of 2020, Ethridge launched the Ethridge Foundation to support groundbreaking scientific research into effective new treatments for opioid use disorder.

Places & events

Full transcript with timestamps

Across four decades, 16 studio albums, and over 15 million records sold, the Grammyinning Indigo Girls, Emily Sailors, and Amy Ray continue to blaze the trail for generations of queer artists in the mainstream. Committed and uncompromising activists, Sailors and Ray work on issues like racial justice and reproductive rights, immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, death penalty reform, and Native American rights. Indigo Girls was the first of six consecutive gold and or platinum certified albums. Their latest record, Look Long, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the duo reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date. Melissa Ethridge stormed onto the American rock scene in 1988 with the release of her critically acclaimed, self-titled debut album. Ethridge hit her commercial and artistic stride with her fourth album, Yes I Am. The collection featured the

massive hits Everyone on earth knows I'm the only one and come to my window. And that album brought home the Grammy Award for the best female rock performance. Known for her confessional lyrics and raspy smoky vocals, Ethridge has remained one of America's favorite female singers for more than two decades. In June of 2020, Ethridge launched the Ethridge Foundation to support groundbreaking scientific research into effective new treatments for opioid use disorder.

We have them both here today. It's freaking so exciting. We went to their show last night and PS. Yes, we are tour the Melissa I mean the Indigo Girls and Melissa Melissa Ethridge together.

So good. And then they were just here. They were just They were just here. Enjoy.

Amy and I are This is Well, I'll speak for us both, but a little bit like Bulls and China shops when we meet people that we're excited about.

Oh, I love you. I love Oh, I mean, I'm sorry. They run away. Yes. They're like, "Whoa, those two." It's okay.

I know how that goes because right now my Are you checking my Are you checking your

this morning on the way? Give you a monitor. The important thing is that we remain calm.

So that's what I'm doing. The royal we means me. It means us. You look so calm at the

completely calm. Look, she she's always calm. If I'm If reincarnation is real, I just want to come back as this.

Oh, this nervous system. this. Um, yeah, she doesn't get more. You can't be a professional sports player without being that.

That's right. That's that's what it takes. Did you get nervous before games? It's different, isn't it? People say, "Do we get nervous?" And nervous and excitement is very much the same thing.

It's the same exact thing. Physiologically, the physiological response is the exact same between nerves and excitement. And so, the way that

you put it in here, psychologically, an athlete thinks about it, like when the commentator said, "Are you excited? Are are you nervous? They're like, "No, I'm excited."

Excited? Yes. It's the exact same thing. Yeah. So, it's like, I didn't know that. But if you say to yourself you're excited, it makes you less nervous.

I mean, like, that's what they say, but that's [ __ ] I mean, I'm always excited about everything in life, but I get nervous

for certain shows and I just have a case of the nerves and I'll miss chords for the first three songs or something will happen.

LA makes us nervous. LA, oh my god, LA is so hard to play. Really? You did a great show last night. It was a great show. Yeah,

but see the the Greek has massive spotlights. They're just huge and you really can't see

most of the audience. All you can see is the crazy front row, which are usually just crazy people, which I love my front row. They're great, but they're just crazy people.

And all I could see was the uh lit up exits. So, I could see people leaving and I'm like, "Do not look at the people leaving. Just play the show." Yeah. So LA is just a real mind trip because you I've spent years here. I

came here 40 years ago and spent years dreaming and hoping. So you So I you get on stage and I've got just got this past of oh my god you've always wanted to be you know and and then and everyone's leaving and I'm like no no no this is just a mind trip.

They just had to pee. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. That's oh so much so. But that's that's a real you know mind trip. It's a good mind trick though because like in every situation we can either focus on the people who are leaving

or the ones that or the people but you can have thousands of people like I love you I worship you and you're like some guy's leaving up.

Oh no. Yeah. My wife used to but my wife is a very interesting woman. She used to um in the 80s she drove a limo and she drove Liza Minnelli.

No way. Totally. And she used to say that one time when Liza Minnelli played Carnegie Hall that, you know, the place is going wild and stuff like this. And she said, "Yeah, but there's that one guy in back that didn't stand up." And then later she sees the guy going out in a wheelchair. And she's like, "Fuck, I I just, you know, yeah, I I gave away all my power to the to my assumption that this person didn't like me." And those assumptions are what can really hurt us. Our dear friend Andrea Gibson who just passed always

they used to say that their wellness check in every moment was am I paying attention to who isn't loving me or who I love

like that in every moment you can tell how well you are by what you're focused on the not or the

is that's all your power. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why it's so hard to remember that

or live by it. I know. I guess it wasn't for them, but well, I think it's been set into us from the time when we were little. I mean, when you stand there's a there's a saying in the sports world that if you stand in front of a group of female little girl athletes and you say one of you was was out there not working as hard as I know that you needed to be. Every single girl psychologically thinks the coach is talking about them. and you go in the exact same locker room to a male and speak to a predom a male team and every kid in that locker room thinks they're talking about somebody else. So there's something that psychologically happens when we're young I think that kind of predisposes us to believe that oh we are not wanted so we're looking for the people leaving the stadium or going and hitting the exits.

And if you're queer there's all that yes history mixed into it. Yeah. Like I don't know if you feel that way, Melissa.

I'm very queer. Oh yeah. Oh, please don't ruin our lives by saying you no longer feel queer.

God, take that. No, no, no, no. You can be you can be definitely sure that that's never changing.

But um I mean it's a bit of a trauma, you know, like just that the old language, the old voices.

But I also grow up did I had a really great father figure, really great. He was a high school coach, but my relationship with my mother was really, you know, contentious. She was having a hard time. She was a She was like a hidden figures sort of computer scientist that that didn't get the credit, got paid half of so she was kind of a bitter woman. But I didn't understand all that at the time. I just thought she didn't like me because we always think it's about

us. But my father was really great. And I think that maybe that sort of male uh role model in my life, I wasn't afraid of guys,

you know, and it really helped in my business because it was all guys and um you know, so I think that that might be a part of it. I don't know.

That's interesting. Yeah, that is. What about you guys and men? There's the lack of that's like something that you would needed to ask yesterday so we had time to think about it. Yeah.

Or no, I'm just kidding. In terms of men in my life, like I love all my brothers-in-law. I'm married to my sisters and my parents stayed married until my mom passed and my dad is a wonderful human and so I've had a lot of good men in my life. Um, and then in terms of, you know, like in terms of the spectrum, like I find men extremely attractive. M

so yeah sometimes I'm like around a certain man or whatever and I'm like hm am I gay

and then but I know I am I know I am but so but I have a very very like vehement vitriolic opposition to men who are toxic or take up too much space like I just can't and then in those moments I'm like I just want to be around women all the time because I don't

I don't experience that in the company of like spirited women. So, so you feel this attraction towards men. Is it for the sake of like sexual attraction or is it part of gender questioning? Cuz I have similar things. I I think I think men's bodies are beautiful and I also think obviously women's bodies are beautiful, but it's in a way that I want to like be it.

It's in a way that I feel like envy like broad shoulders, muscles, ripped abs. I was a pro alete. Never had abs. Like [ __ ] I don't want to be. You don't want to be it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Cool.

Yeah. Cool. That's interesting though. This came up in conversation with Amy where I wrote this song when I was feeling sort of a wistfulness because I love country music and all the We may have talked about this before where the songs were heteronormative and I couldn't find my place in it. But you had said Amy like younger you were just the guy in in in your mind. I mean, I don't want to put words in how I would describe it, but

so I never could do that. I was like, I don't fit in this. Um, but Amy didn't have a problem.

Yeah. It's interesting because we for me growing up, you I felt this this need not only internally but externally that I had to put myself in a certain box.

Yeah. So when Glennon and I met, it was actually really interesting because she was we were friends and she was like like I think maybe I I might be a little queer and I was like oh like we should take the Kinsey test. You go online and

that was your response? Were you scared? Were you scared? I was scared. I was terrified. You all I was in a hotel room in Menanite country.

Oh. And there was a big sampler that said fear fear the Lord in all things. And then I've got Abby on the phone and I'm I was an evangelical Sunday school teacher.

Yeah. So I'm I'm fearing the Lord with my sampler. And then Aby's trying to make me gay. And then

I'm not trying to make you gay. I sent you a song. You guys might send a song. What song? What song?

Drive. Drive by. And I was like, "Oh my god, it's so good." That's very graphic.

That is a great song. You said that. Yeah. I was like, "Let me know what you think." And she was like, "Oh, [ __ ] That worked."

Was that how you flirted with her? Yeah, for sure. Send her a song. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

See, the songs are very powerful. They can be. Yeah. The reason why we're doing this in person right now is because when I found out that you all were in town, I lost my mind and said, "Please tell them that we'd like them to come to our in-home studio." And then a little too late, Abby reminded me that we don't in fact have an inhome studio. That's so cute.

Like we have a basement. Yeah. So, here we are in our inh home studio that we created for you all. So, um we want to ask you all about creativity and songwriting and like where does it come from at first?

Like are you sitting in your house and you're like a song starts bubbling up inside of you? Is a lyric? Is it a melody? Which I'm not sure what a melody is. It's the harmony and the melody. Um how does it begin? How do you win a game? It's

it's hard to describe. It's something you like really want to do first of all. I mean, I know when I was 10 years old and I I grew up in the 60s and 70s, so I was in the middle of the singer songwriter,

you know, it was Dylan and Joanie Mitchell and and these, you know, Paul Simon and these great singer songwriters.

And I I was just surrounded by music. Uh my parents listened to music. They didn't play music, but they listened to it a lot. and my sister listened to the, you know, Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones. My parents had mamas and papas and it's just a really great uh mix of music. And the radio station, I grew up in Kansas and the radio station played everything. One radio station played everything. Tammy Wette to Marvin Gay and to Tommy James and Shawn Del, which is just this great mix of music. So, I thought music was just music, you know, was everything.

And I wanted to be part of that. And then you start drawing that to you. And first you're copying you're copying songs. You know I was

11 and I didn't have exper I had I did not have a you know broken heart yet and you you mimic it until you know your early 20s you really start having experiences. You then you study it and you study the great and you know Ricky Lee Jones why do these words you know why did she use those words and you you get into that. So now after we've done it for 40 years, 50 years, you know, higher. Yes. You know, a long time.

That's so amazing. I collect as I go through my day, I collect things that inspire me

because if I want to be inspiring, I have to be inspired. So I find it in in art. I find it in books, movies, uh other music, uh poetry. I love I get a lot from poetry

and you you're like, "Oh, why did that touch me?" And then I I look at that and then I think about, okay, what do I want to say now? And now that I've lived so much life, it's rich with

things that have happened, things that I want, the desires and pains. And so I can mind from that. I have my on my phone. I've just got huge notes just lined just, you know, someone will say something. I'm go, "Oh, that sounds good." You know, that's cool. or I'll think something or you just then give yourself time. In my 20s, before I had kids, I was like, you know, writing all day long on my bed, you know, you do that. Now I have to say, okay, from 10 to 2, mama's writing, leave me alone. You know, that sort of thing. You got to make the time.

You know, it's changed over the years. But how does it come? It's it's a connection with a stream

of consciousness really that's going by that you you get from and sometimes you get really lucky and you go wow thank you

and sometimes someone else gets that line you're like oh there it is you know so I go by it and then you hear the one that got away yeah I've done that I'm like I thought of that and didn't do anything really

how about melodically have you ever ripped off a song and didn't realize it until later constantly worried

that um No, I've changed songs. I've gone, "Oh, God, that was inspired by this."

Yeah. You know, and and you can't help it. There's only eight notes, so you're like,

"Did did did I make that up or is that like a really famous song that I just really like? I don't know."

Yeah. Yeah. What about you guys? Where does creativity come from for you? Um, I think for me like I I was born into a musical family. So my dad's a pianist and he wrote sacred music and my mom played piano and we always sang together as a family. So you know whatever genetically might contributed to that was certainly in my line. But like I came into the world, okay, I was born breach. That was back when they let you be born breach. born breach, came in like bow-legged, redheaded, recessive jean sensitivity queen, like [ __ ] up.

And so great description, meaning of your limbo shirt from last night. You're like arrived in limbo. I am on the cusp.

I feel like my name's Emily and I don't know, but I have big feelings. Oh my girl.

Oh my god. So when I I discovered guitar at 9 years old and then that became my vehicle and so really at first and like Melissa said it's a lot of emulating early on like I really wanted to be Joanie Mitchell and then I read an interview with her you know she was so asserbic back in the day I was so afraid of her

didn't like anybody and she was like I don't want anybody to copy me and I was like oh god I guess I better find my own voice if Joanie doesn't want me to be like her. So there were like these pivotal moments, but mostly it was like um that was the way that I could figure out the world through my little lens, you know, and then as Melissa said, you you live more and then your songs become um more alive in your own experience and they become richer. I could write five songs a day when I was 17,

but they were all the same and they were crap. Like I look back at those lyrics and it's like God.

I see these artists that are getting signed at 17, 18 and you're like oh god they're gonna by the time they're 25 they're gonna go I what you know they're going to be completely different than what they created at 17. I I'm so glad I didn't.

Well we did record a few songs that if I had to go back and like oops we could have left that one off but um

I still have those. So I think for me I just see the world in images like and then like Melissa I'll write things down and I'll think oh this is so good this is going to go in a song nine times out of 10 god. So there's a constant self-criticism too. Like it's very rarely there's two or three songs maybe that I'm like ah that did the trick. That's what I was going for.

But for me it really is songwriting is completely cathartic you know and with this administration I've had a lot to write about. So the problem is that I end up sort of spewing the same sentiments and sort of descriptors and after you have lived and written songs for so long I just don't want to repeat myself. But

but when it is the way for me to process what's going on in the world or in life then you know there tend to be repeating themes

cuz not much changes over time when it comes to the human race. No. So anyway, that was a long-winded way of saying that's where mine comes from.

Trying to figure [ __ ] out. Yeah. What about you? I mean my family was musical in some ways. Like my parents love music. My dad's got had a great voice and we sort of had to take piano for three years. That was like the compulsory which I'm so glad about. But I think I was just like drawn in like my older sister would listen to a lot of the music from the late 60s and 70s and I was really drawn into like Neil Young and Jimmyi Hendris and Janice Joplain and Grace Slick and like all those kind of that era. And then I discovered, you know, Carol King and Roseanne Cash and Linda Ronstad and, you know, a lot of Joanie Mitchell and Ricky Lee and all these things that started cropping up. But when I was very young, I was in church choir. I was a real church girl. I went like, you know, a few days a week at least, Sunday school, Bible school, youth group, choir practice, Friday night skating. I did

all of it, right? And music was a big part of what we did in the Methodist church, you know.

I was Methodist. Sporty Methodist. I was too. You were too as well. Methodist Methodist

and and there was so much music and and my parents ended up dropping me off at church. They didn't want to go to church, but I was like, "Take me to church. I want

Yeah, you can just sit around and pray." And I love the spirit in it. Yeah. And we are one in the spirit. We are one

because you go and you think it's the feeling you have is about Jesus. I was like, "Oh my god, I love Jesus." I went to my first concert. I'm like, "Oh, I just love this music all together."

Yes. Yes. Yes. That feeling of all in a moment together. I had a moment. I was almost I had a moment of being maybe a Christian artist.

Oh, really? I know. It's true. I was like 20. It was before I came to California and I had done I had done so much work in the church and had become like head of the youth group and I wrote a musical and I was doing all this stuff. And then

you remember Phil Keaggy? Oh yeah. I love Phil. He came to our town and my I loved him

and they let me open for him and I was like this is it. This is my chance, you know. And I

He was great. Oh, he's great. And I met him backstage and I was like, what do you think? Do you think, you know, I could, you know, cuz I'd written some great songs and and he he sweetheart. He said, um, I I don't think Christian music is ready for you.

Well, that was probably And so I went, I'm going to Los I'm just going to be gay. He's like,

I know. It was cool. That was nice of him, actually. What is So, you all are a Methodist. What is Do you have any language to put around what your faith is right now?

Oh, yeah. What's the language you would like in this snapshot, this moment today? What is your faith?

I'm a spiritualist. Spiritualist. Yeah. I believe in uh uh intelligent design. You you just can't look at this world and how it is made without understanding that some intelligent life force or source uh is creating this that's going on. And when and and I've I I had cancer 21 years ago and it really like oh I I got to get in life right now or I'm going to die you know that sort of thing. So I really dove deeply into religions, uh, science, quantum physics, these things. And and when you start realizing that it's all the same thing, that we're actually connected by a force, whatever you want to call it, the ether, the the source, what we're connected, we're all one, and we're all different, and we're all creating and moving forward, and we're all trying trying to figure out how to live together. And there's a a saying that started with armies back in you know the Greek time. It was as above

so below. What we're doing down here is also how it's done everywhere. You can see in a small cell

what we are as a cell of a person are in this society as our countries are in the world as the world is in the universe and it's all the same. So I that's a whole another podcast I could definitely talk to you about, but it's it's it brings me much peace

to to understand it that way to understand the spirit in the world. What about you Amy?

I mean I I believe that like I was a religion major and I really love religions like to study how people live their how what you use as your construct to get through your life, you know. And so I'd look at religion as as two things like I'm very spiritual and I'm very like nature oriented kind of paganism in some ways. But I the structure of Christianity is is my comfort zone and not the patriarchy. Of course when I write songs that are like gospel songs I still write about Jesus and I still think of Jesus as a a historical figure who may or may not have been everything that we think. But it in my mind is like this rebellious advocate for people that, you know, had less and or or weren't recognized, I guess, is a better way to put it. They actually probably had more

but were disenfranchised. And so for me, it's that I was raised so heavily in that and it's still something I feel comfortable with, you know, and I feel

I go to church and I like preaching and I when it's a good minister and I really just love it, you know, I enjoy it a lot. So, but I'm very but I also love Buddhism and I love the Jewish faith and I love, you know, like Jewish theologians like Martin Buber. I like, you know, so I just I I think Hinduism is really is there's a lot of things in Islam that are very special. And so I love it all.

But I think I realized for me the vehicle that I is is kind of Jesus without the patriarchy, I guess, in a way, which is hard to do. it. I have like a filter and translator inside me that just takes whatever is happening and translates it into my own language and I feel good. Mhm.

But I don't but I definitely feel, you know, determined for the church and institutions to sort of get with it, you know, and cuz they there's so many churches like the church in my neighborhood, my mom's neighborhood who my mom needs a lot of care right now and they're really there for her and it's just like 50 people in the congregation with an incredible minister and a great piano player.

And you know that's what a church, it's a neighborhood church. They're there for everybody. when someone's house burns down, they're there for them. When my mom is sick, they're there for them.

To me, that's what church is supposed to be about, you know. And so, I believe there it's important to have that community space.

I just wish it hadn't been hijacked by all the [ __ ] That's my That's my take on it.

Emily, but Emily's got a whole Well, I just uh I guess I'm much more of like a Holy Spirit kind of girl. Like, when I was younger, it was really about Jesus and and I like these women. and I grew up in the Methodist church. My dad was a theologian and a minister, but we were um I guess you could call it progressive thinking. So, we weren't nothing was ever forced on us.

We were able to ask a lot of questions and my dad was able to describe to us the true mythology of Christian doctrine and storytelling. So when I became I had a sort of intellectual grasp of the sharing of stories like the Lord's prayer is actually a Jewish prayer and origin and and then the stories of the gods and all that. So then then I was like okay that's cool. So uh I'm not a fundamentalist and the mythology is beautiful and all that but to me like human beings in my opinion we have a relationship to spirituality. So the more we lock in to goodness, doing for others, respecting our place in the uh in in the scope of things, then the deeper the spiritual world grows. To put it simply, this entity that I believe in, this Holy Spirit, it grows the more human beings are in relationship with it.

So this is our task as human beings. And I'm a little negative about the human species. Um, I don't think we've really come that far in terms of our evolution as beings and we do have a chance to ruin it all and perhaps we will. But in the moment, we are tasked with this relationship. So, I buy into that, but also I buy into like

the cosmos is like we cannot fathom the mysteries of the universe. And so, there are mysteries, but then there are fractals. They know that things are repeating and repeating. And then to me, it's just so truly in the literal sense of the word, awesome. Like awesome.

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the new Pelaton crossraining tread plus at onepelon.com. What is your faith or all of that? How does it inform how you show up right now in this moment that we're in in this country? And how does being on the road together right now feel being like all of this? You know, it's so emotional just watching you on stage because, you know, just you have walked us through so many things and I felt comforted last night because I thought, well, there's a lot of young people there last night.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, these people think this is new. Like, there's so many queer kids out there, but you all were went through it when it wasn't so easy, right? When everybody wasn't assimilated. So, what can you what do you want them to know, the young kids to know right now? Like young queer kids. And what have you learned from them that has changed your worldview?

Our oldest child is a lesbian and um it seems so funny because she'll say, "People ask me, do you think you're lesbian because your mother was or whatever?" And and she's like, "Well, are you straight because your parents were straight?" You know, that's a silly question. And I raised her in a world where

she really thought there were more gay people than straight people in the world when she was a child. She really did. and she came to the Berkeley show the other night and the Berkeley show was

it was 10,000 strong magical men and women and and she turned to her partner she goes this is what I you know was raised in this is what I thought the world was was this right here you know so I see that

um as these younger kids who were raised after we already you know started building it And we were the you know the the famous ones but there were so many people I was surrounded by uh you know Irvish and and these men and women who were fighting the AIDS fight you know in the 80s and that's what really brought us all together. this was something was killing people and we and we all joined together and these people I would I would hang around them in Hollywood and they were working so hard and I it inspired me to go you know it would probably mean something if I really came out and and did that and so

there was a a small sense of community and you know like what we they wouldn't I remember when Bill Clinton actually said gay and lesbian for the first time on television it was like my god he said the word lesbian you know and it was it was just really

you know huge And I would say to the younger ones now, we have come so far. You you don't realize that it wasn't that long ago that it was like this. So we have come so far. Rest assured in that.

Yes, people are going to try to push back, but it's not going to work because we have we've already come so far.

And I didn't think in my lifetime that I would be able to say I have a wife. Same. you know, that wasn't something that and marriage when we were just fighting to stay alive and not be thrown in jail,

we didn't think about marriage. That was like that's something that straight people do, you know. And it wasn't until I realized that well, there's a whole lot of rights that come with marriage and stuff, right?

You know, I wanted marriage so I could get gay divorced, you know, so I could divorce equality is important.

No, you have no idea. I had to pay twice as much in taxes that someone else would have to pay. interesting in in a divorce. So, I would I would say I would say don't despair. It it's have enough uh of the contrast to give you energy,

but don't ever let it overcome you because we have already pushed through so much of this and it's just people in their fear and that they don't understand what they don't see and and so so be

out, be gay, be who you are and change happens slowly and just in 20 years they'll be going, "Oh, well, we used to have to do that, you know. Exactly.

Will be the same. Yes. What about you two? What do you think about when you think about the young queer

love? I love I love young queer activists. I love young activists. Not even just queer. They've for me it's a me they've mentored me all my life. I felt like, you know, I used to hang out with this band, the Butchies, which was part of Team Dress, was kind of like the Riot Girl era, and we played tour together some, and they really opened my mind to my own sort of gender struggles, and I, you know, they're 10 years younger than me. And from that point on, I sort of started realizing, yeah, it's, you know what, it's like, I don't really have a lot to say. I I have to listen probably a lot because they opened my mind to a lot of stuff that was already going on inside me and enabled me to articulate things that made my life so much easier.

And then and then as I got older, I noticed that all these great movements were starting to be led by, you know, younger people. And I mean, gun safety, gun control, environmental movements, climate change, black lives matter, um, death death penalty work, indigenous movement right now is very youthled and amazing young leaders and the queer movement. And I find that I have a lot of young queer people in my life also because I have two gay sisters and have they have, you know, um I have a gay sister that's got gay children. I've got a brother that's got gay kids. It's like it's just a lot of gay around and it's and queer, but it's so different for them because they're so on it's so unexpect it's so like fluid and it's so

not labeled and free and and I don't know. I just feel like there's still a lot to learn

and there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of bullying, there's a lot of hate and vitriol, but and it's really important, I think, just to, you know, love each other through that. But also, I have so much faith in this younger batch of people

that I just try to like listen what needs to be done like what are y'all doing? What what do I need to be doing to help that? Because

I I feel like that's the leadership that's so important right now. But I also think just generally every day right now I feel like I'm always like I got to do something positive today for somebody.

It doesn't have to be queer. Yeah. You know what I mean? It just has to be one thing

that helps. Cuz right now like that's the only thing I can focus on is like narrowing into like how is that how is that one thing that I can do today that'll help somebody feel better or open somebody's mind up a little bit or

make some or just love as you you know you talk about love on stage a lot. It's good. It's like, yeah, cuz I live in an area where everybody's it's very it's much more conservative and there's a lot of it's it's very hard right now for people to just like find their way through it, you know, and

but if people can keep relationships going even though they feel differently and they hate each other in some ways, if they can try to keep something together,

I think it's right now it's probably going to be the thing that saves us, you know, to do that, to have some humanity. Mhm.

Um for me, I just think simply like I don't I don't have much that I would tell young youth and activists um queer youth except to say that things are on a continuum and something came before you. It came before us. Um, people have suffered to bring us where we are. And now there's a lot of suffering against sort of like one step forward, two steps back, it feels like with this administration and just the horrific way that trans people are being treated and all of their rights being stripped. But there has been a continuum and there always will be. But mostly I want to learn from them. Like I just recently got to know Katie Gavin from Luna.

She is amazing human being. I love her. She's a really wonderful human being and she I went to go see her play her solo show in New York and I met her friends and I it was like I was going to say a kid in a candy store but it was more like here I am this person in my age with my experience and trying to use the tools that I have. These young people were so inspiring. First of all they were all non-binary all her friends. M

one of them was talking about how they flew to Egypt so that they could try to sneak over the border or get food to Palestinians like on the ground. Complete courage that they wouldn't even call courage. It's just the way that they live their truth.

So I'm like, "Y'all tell me what to do and I'll do my best as a middle-aged like whatever."

Just so inspiring. And so there's a whole like circle of young artists and some of them I find on YouTube. Um, but Katie's like in that in that circle of people that's so inspiring to me. So, I just want to listen and like

be a worker be and show up for them. Beautiful. But what is a day like getting through this [ __ ] Like besides the like theoretical like when you guys wake up and you're talking to your partners or you're talking to your kids, how do you approach living in this moment just on a day-to-day basis? How do you ride the wave of fascism? Well, you want to tell them that you're in an interesting period of your life?

Well, I always am. Oh, it's fascism and you got to tell them menopause. Like, I never know.

That's action. I just had a hot flash as we were sitting here and I was like, I was like gone.

Yeah. The intersection of fascism or like is this raging homicidal lightning flash I have inside of me like due to the fallen estrogen or the fallen democracy? Can you please write that book?

No, I can't keep a thought in my mind for longer than two minutes. Just record everything as you think it. Just like you think it and then trans, you know,

I mean, you all have kids. Like, what are you saying to them? And how do you keep your equilibrium? Do you?

I do. I again, it um it started with with me when I went through cancer. That was just a big big like shift in my life of oh wow I've got to I got to think about me personally and as I said earlier about as above so below I'm I represent the whole you know each each individual has everything in it

and each part of you and your body your DNA has everything in it. So I I look to the fantastic things. I I also look at what I'm taking in.

It is really hard to watch the news. Watching the news is you have to you have to set yourself in a good place before you watch the news or it will take you under and throw you away. Mhm.

And the technology that we have, how instantly things that happen all over the world,

you can look and feel it instantly. And that's and then there's like in the moment there's nothing you can do about it.

So it causes a great depression. And so it's about okay, how can I get to a place where I know that I'm doing what I can, what's healthy for me.

Health is especially menopause. This is when all the health stuff starts. So it's about strengthening yourself for my children. I can't have my children watching me fall apart

over something that I I literally can't change today. M and I want to have my children see me one love what I'm doing because I want them to love what they do in life. I want them to love life.

So words don't teach. I can tell them you have to love your life. But if they're seeing me falling apart every day, they're going to go that doesn't fit. So I want to be an example. All I can do is teach them by my example. An example of a loving relationship. how I love myself in my relationship, how I love myself in my work, and how the only thing that could ever take me away from you is that I love is my love.

And and show them that that's the joy of life is doing what you love. And then in your doing what you love, you actually make the world a better place.

You really do. and and believing that and then letting the things that you can do come to you like like this. You have inspired so many young people just by being truthful, just by being you. That's the power that can't be taken away. Mhm.

And also the knowledge that in this world we live in a dualistic universe. That is our reality is good and bad, light and dark, up and down, in and out, right and wrong. It's there's you can't have one without the other. They all exist.

So how do we exist in a world where there's going to be really bad things always happening?

How do we do that? Well, you appreciation. You know what? This administration really makes me appreciate good leadership.

I want to find people that are are thinking forward about leadership. I want to put my energy instead of putting my energy looking at what I don't like, saying what I don't like, which gives me more of what I don't like.

I'm going to say, "Okay, this exists. I'm not going to, you know, say it doesn't exist. Yes, it exists. And it makes me want

more peace. It makes me want better leaders, better leadership. How can we lead as one in our diversity? Oh, well, we celebrate all diversity. We even celebrate people who don't understand us, but we appreciate find a way to truly do it. And it's it's inside work

and it's inside work loving our bodies and how okay we're not making babies anymore. That was only a part of our life. Now unfortunately in the last 2,000 years a a woman postmenopausal 2,000 years ago was the village leader. They were the ones who knew the things the wisdom the owls that we are you know that that's that's what our job was back then. And then that's been taken away and buried. And no, no, no, no, no.

It's time to embrace that now. Now this is this is when the good stuff starts happening.

That's exactly right. This is the good stuff. All the political movements and all the if we can like zoom out of humanity.

The the bad things need to happen so that you have something to fight against more good stuff.

And then this is the moment where we get to come together. So like that's the the the way that my mindset works too. Like though I wish that we didn't have to go through the suffering portal to get through, you know, the to the next step. That's

I mean anyone who's suffering really is that's proof of love because anyone who's who looks at this mess and feels deep pain or sadness, that's only because there's a vision inside of them that is like this should be more beautiful.

But love the vision, the bigger love yourself enough to move to the next step from that. Do not stay in despair or suffering because then that doesn't help anybody and you get sick and you die.

Yeah. So understand it, feel it, and then appreciate I appreciate feeling that because I know that that has made me want this. I we all went through you have your Laramie song. I have a scarecrow song about back Matthew Shepard. People don't understand what a big moment that was because it shifted people going, "No, no, no. We can't be gay. There's no gay. No gay to wait a minute. I'm not that. I don't want to kill and in such a horrible way. And it shifted

a whole lot of people to I'm not that. So the awfulness you we are going to see more people go you know what

I'm not that. Even though they might have been oh I'm all for oh I'm conservative I'm not that.

Right. And and they move over. So that's where change happens. You mentioned being yourself out loud, that that is an important part of your work. Have you ever had a time where you decided to censor yourself either in music or on stage? Can you think of a time where that has happened and you didn't say the thing and then what was the fallout? Yeah. I mean, I think for me it it's like a daily wrestling when we're on tour and

singing. I always think about that like not saying something um for various reasons, you know, like if you're in a band with a lot of people and different people feel different things and

you know that out of respect for people in your band that this may not be the time to talk about certain issues or whatever. Mhm.

But then then you're like, but this is a but this is the time to talk about that. So it's like but I think it's harder than that I want to admit to myself to not be censored and to really be as strong as I want to be, you know? So I think it's not just like one moment. It's like a constant dialogue for me because I'm it it's easier to sing a song that's outspoken than it is to actually speak out.

That's interesting. And so it's, you know, and but for me it's like when you're at a protest or a march, it's, you know, you're there, you're in it, you're saying it. When you're on stage in front of a lot of people sometimes it's like I don't want to you you start do I want to alienate people? And then you're like, why am I worried about that right now? And so I have this little thing going on in my head. I think it's cool for me and Emily because we I think we sort of tag team this a little bit because you there's always this sense of who feels stronger that we don't even talk about but you can just tell like well Emily Emily feels strong tonight to talk about this

or I feel strong tonight to talk about this and I don't really even think about it but as I look at it I think like that's we're we have the

luxury of that tag teaming and and making each other stronger and I live in a town that's very you know I love my neighbors so much and I really am careful not about what I say but choosing my moments to like evangelize to them about whatever, you know, and just and respecting where they're coming from.

But if it's if someone makes a racist comment, I'm going to say something about it, you know, or someone says something really hateful,

I do speak up. But like I'm not scared about what people think of me. I'm scared of losing the thread of of a relationship.

Yeah. and and damaging that because I also had a dad that was very conservative and a mom that's now super progressive but used to be conservative. So, and I and I try to be brave, you know, cuz and I look to my mentors, my Indian elders and and other elders, you know, Jimmy Carter, Stacy Abrams, um you know, who unabashedly would just say things that they say, but they say them in a way that's gentle or

somehow they managed to say it without alienating people and still speak their truth. And I just study that

like John Lewis because I haven't gotten there at all in any way. If you want some help, I have some advice on this topic.

Oh, ab cool. You know when we were young and our parents would like you'd be like acting up and they would just be like, "Knock it off.

Knock it off. I'm bringing it back. Knock it off." Okay. So when somebody start steps out of line, just be like, "Knock it off." because it's kind of loving and also nostalgic and also to the point.

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Let me ask y'all like how is life different for you now that you're so much in the public and like truthfully very very famous. How does that does it make you more self-conscious about the way you live your life or how you speak your thoughts or how you do your job? I think for me I have all different thoughts about it. I'm extremely sensitive human, so Abby knows we go through a lot of ups and downs in a day.

Um, but I think for me the biggest challenge right now is to understand that my job isn't just to comfort a community.

Like it is not my job to make everybody feel comfortable all the time, which is my I love the people who we do life with and I love our community. And then like every two years I am internally compelled to just blow it all up by like saying something or doing something and then everyone's like, "Oh, we liked you before." And then but so it's like a cycle. So for me, it's like getting comfortable with my mission or or responsibility being not to just comfort a community, but also challenge and being okay leaving behind whatever has to go, knowing that whatever will come next is what was supposed to be.

But it does feel like a constant like, oh, we just got comfortable. Like what you said about life is like we just got comfortable with this thing and now like I think if I we know if I'm speaking somewhere at a church or whatever and no one leaves, I feel like I haven't done my job.

Right. Right. Oh, I always think that. Oh, interesting. Like when I start seeing people walk out, I'm like, "Oh god, God. Oh god, I'm almost done."

I did the thing. Yeah. She's supposed to be challen she she's trying to be challenging people

to a point where there some people are like get me out of here. But it makes me sad because I don't want I I want to people to feel

safe, but then safety isn't always the You're right. Yeah. You're right. You're right.

It's hard for me to do that, but you're so right. And then what's your experience in all of that Abby? since the time I was 15 16 from like a smaller town in upstate New York to then like the world. Um, I've had an interesting relationship with fame and being known in the public eye. And I think it's such a bizarre thing to have like I would I would liken it to your guys's talent cuz there is something supernatural about it that I don't have anything to do with. I don't know why I was gifted this thing. M

so I do actually feel like it I am of the people because I can't claim full responsibility of it all.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and then totally and and so when people come up to us I just I I don't I don't feel there's a difference.

Yeah. I agree. like when when when we when when I first met Glennon and got three kids,

I was like very much um thrown into I'm now have to have a consciousness for these three humans also cuz they're young and

uh when somebody would kind of interrupt us that would be interruptive to their experience. And so having to think through it from like a kids perspective and nowadays they're older now and so it's usually pretty normal. Um and we live in an area where everybody kind of respects us.

I don't know. I I feel like the energy on this set right now it's like this is going to sound so weird but just bear with me. I was doing a breath class

and in the breath class you're basically hyperventilating. Yeah. you know, and I had some hallucination where God came down on me and basically was just like, I gave you this gift. I gave you these gifts and like it's up to you what you want to do with it. So, it's like a daily choice to be in this in this system.

And in the sports world, especially when I was traveling overseas, like people were calling me dyke and like [ __ ] you. And I was like I was the enemy. I was like the opposition. So I got really com comfortable

in a place where people are booing cuz cuz if I if they weren't booing then I was not playing well

then they didn't they weren't scared of me. So it's kind of weird dynamic. So, I'm like the perfect person for you to be married to because I'm just like, you know,

roll up your sleeves, let it roll up. I'm like, yeah, I don't know. That's a cool

That's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys think anything was lost in the time when you know there were rainbows in every Old Navy and that because

like does a simp because really there I I don't know how to put this into words but it felt like there was something cooler than that that we were going for like just being like everyone else

wasn't it was kind of like oh well then you have the capitalist part of it too like I remember when American Airlines came out and was like very progay early early on and I was like Oh, that's cool. From the goodness of their hearts like they buy tickets,

but you know what's like in in I think it's a link to what you're saying, Glenn, and a lot of this conversation has come up recently and I've had people I know say it seems like the trans movement has hurt the gay movement and they're more they

they feel their identity is lesbian and not queer. They don't like and this is it's very it's very interesting to me and I understand why you can bite off more than you can chew in terms of a political strategy that the the voting block is not ready for,

right? But it doesn't mean that there isn't some way that you have to keep fighting for that. So, it's just really interesting to me now these powers that have separated people, they've gotten into the queer community and like

and it's like diabolical and it's like no, no, no, we need to stick together. That's history too, Emily. You know, cuz it's like, think about it.

Remember the parades in Atlanta and they'd be like, we don't want all the the, you know, the queens at the front of the parade cuz Yeah.

then the then the families won't accept the parade and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, and then, you know, it's like this the fight over feims and butch lesbians and just there's always this like weird

people want to close the door behind divisiveness. People are always like, "Okay, we got in, but no, not you." You know, it's like the safety.

Yeah. It's like America just immigration, you know. Okay. Once the, you know, the Irish came over, they're like, "Okay, now we're close. You you can't come over now."

Or suffrage, you know, like, "Okay, we'll just get the white ladies first." Yeah. It's this constant u challenge of human beings to accept differences and this the diversity and diversity is scary to people especially if you grow up in a place that's not diverse than different people that's why traveling is so good for people you know it's just so it's just

people getting comfortable they got comfortable with the gay thing okay we were out there singing we like they liked our songs we found the okay there's gay people in sport okay but and eventually weird people will just be, you know, it's it's a part of all of us.

It is especially hard though. I mean, it it is especially hard right now with the trans movement so under attack for it to come for our community to be

Yeah. to sit in that seat too and and start. It's just like, wow, y'all. Have you not learned from the past 50 years?

I mean, there's a great example in the world right now. How can a group of people who have been so oppressed, killed separated ostracized treat another group of human beings?

No. Inhumanely. I think that's one of the things I've learned so much from our 20-year-olds. They don't even comprehend the idea of leaving anyone behind.

Like if this whole like compromising thing, like if they don't want us without the trans community, then [ __ ] you. Then we don't get any of us,

right? Yeah. So, all of it is about No, no, we'll stand together because what we we're not even I think that's what I'm trying to say. Like, we're not even trying to get what you have.

Yeah. We don't need your room. We don't need your We'll just stick together because if we did, we'd be bigger and more powerful anyway.

And if we could that these conservatives, these the the people that are afraid of us are also just a part of this. We're looking at you as you're kind of weird. Yeah. You know, and that's where the media and stuff comes in because it's all very one kind of sided. And if that's that's our job is to keep doing what we do, be successful, love what we do, show be up here. So that pretty soon it's just and those are the noisy ones. They they've got all the power right now, but power is attention. So if we can be who we are, have more attention, then they become just part of the big soup.

Yep. Can you tell them about the freedom fleet? Well, I mean, this is just a cheesy metaphor that I always use, but

it's not cheesy. It's very important. So, in one day, I was just feeling extremely depressed about like the onslaught of everything and like how are we going to respond and how do we resist something that's constantly um and I was rereading this essay by Michelle Alexander that she wrote in the first Trump administration where she was saying, "Don't worry, we're not the resistance." like the the river of like yearning for love and justice, which is what all three of you have been singing about forever, is the river. That's the way of things. That is the energy.

That's God. That's and you're flowing with it or you're resisting it and but the damn the resistance is the other side. That's like that's why and all the whatever that's

but it's not just the river. We have to be human about we have to get in the river. We need to figure out just like concrete thing you can do every day that makes a difference that's not just

helping someone feel better but also like you know like the friends in LA that we have that do

the networks of people that alert people to when ice raids are going on or you know taking someone in or helping or you know if someone's like

I can't work here anymore but I need to still make money but I'm undocumented and I need help and I need to have some kind of job but I can't do it here because you you like just try whatever it is that you can do mechanically. Like I just feel like there's so many it's so hard to figure out what to do. I know

cuz I'm always struggling with that. Like what can I do that like is actually in the trenches and makes a difference. I think singing is good but also I have some extra time.

I want to do something else too. Yeah. So I want to help this person or help this kid or do this or that. And it's like, so if we get, you know, so if some trans kid gets gives us a request to do something special for the family or do this or that, it's like, oh yeah, we could do that.

You know what I'm saying? Like, okay, there's something to do. It's like just be on the lookout.

And everyone doing that is what creates change. Doing what you can do right there.

Yeah. And people are different about what they do, aren't they? I mean, they're different all the different ways. You know, I used to be like,

they threw condoms at the Pope. what you know and it was like that was important. I was too young to get that. Now I'm like hell yeah.

And then my dad has this relationship with this Benedicting community in Minnesota and I came to understand why a community of prayer was important and how that fit into the whole thing. But it's like

we have to respect all the input for good change, you know, no matter what form it takes, what it looks like.

And we have to respect the people in different boats. There's this vibe of like, I'm in this boat and you're in this boat, so [ __ ] you. But it's like, no no.

You're all on the same river. You're all you're all on the same river. Yeah. And we need them in our boat and we need to be in our boat and we should just be the only thing we should be yelling is go, go, go. Right.

But a lot of times white people think that it's their perspective is the perspective. You know what I mean?

I have not noticed that, Emily. So, like if you're if you're after the election and you're ringing your hands and you're crying like I did and then you talk to a black woman who's been in the struggle, not only her entire life, but her generations, her people, her and then you're like, oh

yeah, we're like, I'm going to take my ball and go home cuz it's been two weeks.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing. The perception of time. The only thing you have control over is you and how you feel.

And we don't realize how powerful that is. Yeah. Can you just first of all move in with me and then while you're thinking about that I actually just want to know is there any you mentioned inspiration from books, poetry, movies, TV, but like what is do you have anything lately that's been especially delightful or healing to you in the art world, TV world? anything.

And it also could be my answer, which is Love Island. So, it could be very low brow. Like, she's not going to want that answer from you guys, but I just want to make sure there Yeah. There's a there's like a range of of things like Love Island. I'm just like, it's like the perfect medication for me right now.

There's a my children's too. Yeah. This isn't a Love Island answer. Great. But, um, there's a book.

It's called The Myth of Normal. Gabbor Mate. Oh, we love Gab Gabbor. Gabbor. Gabbor. Gabbor. Yes.

Just I mean it's a big thick book. But you will find comfort. You will find some understanding in why people think the way they do and then how you can heal your own inner stuff to be of of service to be

service. Beautiful. I would say that. No. Yeah. Okay. Write that one down. Good, too.

I got into this writer, Imani Perry. Oh, and um I just I've read everything and then I reread it and then I listen to the audio books. It uh such a great perspective on so many things.

Um Beyond Race contextualizes so many things in such a beautiful way. So, she's my you know, new love of writing. But um I have to say my 11-year-old, they sitting beside them on the on the couch, watching them play Minecraft is quite a a calming experience for me.

Whoa. And they're really good at it and into it and and we do a lot of things together besides that. I don't want y'all to think I'm just like six for six hours playing Minecraft, but

they create and it's all about creating and I'm just sitting there and I'm just listening to all the beautiful sounds that Minecraft has and I'm just like so peaceful right now.

That's lovely. So, and then we walk in the woods a lot. Those those things I think 11 year olds are

that's a great age. Is Ammani's work important to you because of the southern thing? Because you're so

probably I mean I I think yeah I'm a broken record about the South, you know. I'm trying to also write about something different. But yeah, and I think and I also think she brings a it's about the South, but she's she has a way of bringing people in to the circle. and understanding other people that are so different from herself and being truly empathetic

which is so hard to do and she really does it you know and so I mean that book South to America was like

for I I think I listened to the audio book twice read the book twice I just I was like this is commit this to my mantra

um so yeah I think it helped me it restored me to in my down with my people to be patient and empathetic and loving and I just I'm such a southerner, you know, and and gave me more patience with my ancestors that are,

you know, there's some rest in peace, but like whoa, some of them should not rest in peace.

I'll just say that work harder, do better after but yeah. So anyway, yeah, what what's up for Emily? Um, well, you know, I this friend Kaplan, she's a friend of Amy's now. You all know her. She's from Georgia.

I I spent a few hours with her. She's a filmmaker, a very good filmmaker. And she also is doing this on the ground work with reporting when I shows up. I was so inspired. I've known this woman for decades. I was so inspired by the way she is living and working in the world. It was very I don't know how to describe it. I was like and it made me want to be a better person.

So like I have all these people in my life. Amy's one of them too. That makes me seriously makes me want to be

I'm not trying to belittle that a better person, you know, like I have a lot of people in my life who are very smart and and active and um and so I'm always inspired by that. You know, Katie Gavin has been very important to me.

Me too. Um yeah, her personhood, her music, who the people that she's introduced me to.

Um and then like I've really be because I've struggled with um my privilege, my whiteness. I've had a lot of like I don't know if guilt's the right word, but um taken it into perspective in a way that has has diminished the power of joy in my own life with people I love. And

so I'm very very invested right now in spending time with people I love and and I'm very fortunate to love my family. They're like my friends, hang with them. So I'm getting a lot of inspiration. Also, this is kind of weird, but we I went to uh Scandinavia. My sisters and I took my dad and we went to the museum in Oslo, like the National Museum, and it was so well curated and it was like the revival of the Gothic area of art

and I was like, "Wow, curating is really important." Like just like a well- constructed sermon was always important.

So I I really had an appreciation for the work that goes into presenting something that was inspiring to me.

And then I read Miranda July. I read both her books and I'm like, I [ __ ] love weird people. Like just

just diversity and weirdness. How many groups have split up and horrible stuff and and these two genuinely still love each other? It's so

It's so great. It's so inspiring. I'm thankful for it. It's so inspiring. You guys are so cool.

And we love you. I like my little Indigo girl sandwich. Very very happy. We're having a love tour.

We are so I want to throw in one more thing. Yes, me too. Plant medicine, hallucinogenics are healing and provide a lot of relief. And I'm going to throw a little my foundation.

Oh, no, no, please. We want to hear. I read all about it. I'm going to say it. Yeah. It's

Well, you know, cannabis is the one that that everyone just that they use it recreationally, but I I I think any use of any plant medicine is medicinal. People just don't know it. And osilocybin is got so much there's so much micro doing and and there's it's all about facilitation though. But the big work the big work which the Ethridge Foundation does is in opioid addiction. when I lost my son 5 years ago and um and to see and understand the science and this is where science and spirit meet

and the ethics foundation I I'm right in the middle really bringing these two together because the science is in our brain chemistry our our neural pathways can be reset

through plant medicine. This is not any sort of this is not oh we're doing drugs where this this is therapeutic work with iawaska with ibane ibane is a uh bogga is a African root that for centuries they've been doing uh ceremony with and one sometimes just one journey one four-hour journey on ibo gain can let the reason it helps addicts is because the the addiction is the neurological pathway just going there that that needs to be fixed. It pauses that

and you can rewire the science is there. Ethics Foundation raises money for these this research all over the world that shows that the science is working. There's a lot of hope there. There's a lot of really

keep doing that awesome work. Where do people find that? Uh ethagefoundation.org and there's information there. You can donate, you can help, you can there's all kinds of things you can do.

That's great. All right. But there's I just want to say we we've seen a lot of great things. A lot of hope.

I was a former opioid addict myself, so I very much understand. I've been sober for almost 10 years now.

We've done a couple of of therapeutic treatments and it's a huge deal. And there's a whole range. Yeah. So,

I'm really trying to also normalize that. Yeah. Bring it out of the way. It's great work. It's Yeah. I've seen a special about a couple that did that

with a man who had PTSD from the war. Oh, it's incredible how it changed his life.

Changed their life because they rewired their neural pathways. It's the science. It's not Yeah. And you find

pathways that need to be rewired. Come on, let's go rewire those pathways now. Very amazing.

What about you guys? Do you have anything? I do dog rescue. You know what she does? bring puppies to shows

and it's so hard for us. We love it. I'm going to do it. Our managers are lining it up.

All right. You don't do it. Okay. I do dog rescue and but I didn't mean to do this one at this moment. And I have six right now. And then I had to rescue this 110 lb Rottweiler just out of puppyhood. Sweet. Sweet. But I can't keep it. I got to find a home for this dog.

Oh, he's great with kids. Mhm. Um, don't know yet. He's so far pretty good with other dogs. We're not positive. He ignores cats. We're working with him, but he's at my house.

Okay. Anyone? And so, so we need No, I don't know. It's by the time this airs, he'll be adopted. I hope.

Okay. But I mean, ideally, it would be like somebody that like doesn't even have like that's had Rottweilers and wants another one cuz they lost one or something and likes to go running with a big dog cuz he needs to be trained. Did you guys see Tiki on line at all? Are you online?

No. Okay. Simon Sits. Simon Sits IG. This is a silly story now, but if you want to do yourselves a favor, just go to Simon Sits IG and then follow Tiki.

She, this woman Isabelle adopted a dog named Tiki and took us through the dayby-day process.

And it was exactly what I needed right when Trump got elected. Oh, cool. That I was like, "Oh my god." like one person saving one life is the content that I'm here for. So do yourself a favor.

That's beautiful having dogs and a possums and like squid in my Instagram feed and anything. Highland cows are awesome.

The way cows love music like Okay, these guys have very like profoundly offered wonderful things. I want to plug my musical.

That's huge. like one of the views. I know. I know. That's funny. Um, so this is my first musical. That's awesome.

I I'm writing the Thanks AIM. I'm I'm writing the music. And Beth Malone, who starred in Funhome, wrote the book with her friend Maryanne Stratton, who's a wonderful writer, taught public school for 30 years. So Maryanne, Beth and I wrote the show. It's called Starruck, loosely based on Sarin B de De Berserak. And we have our first production at Bucks County Playhouse. And the first show is like February 20th, 2026. So, I'm really excited that we have a production. And um I just I'm sorry, but I do want to plug it.

I want people to come. It's going to be mid- winter up North Philadelphia. Writing a play and songs for a play is a different beast than what you're used to right?

It is. Is it fun? Was it a fun experience? Oh, it's so it's it's fun. It's exhilarating. I'm around a lot of creative people who are really schooling me on things that I'm enjoying learning about.

Cool. It's thrilling. It's thrilling. So cool. Yeah. Okay. Psilocybin Rottwwellers.

Yeah. My PSA is that don't buy don't buy from a breeder. Just freaking adopt a dog.

They kill them every day. And that's I don't I know you don't want to hear that. People don't want to hear that. But

it they the shelters are overcrowded. Even the no kill shelters in Georgia are having to euthanize. So,

do not just wait. You don't need You can go online and find any breed you want.

That's right. Rescue organizations like just do it. Yep. Thank you so much. This is beyond what I ever

We love you guys. Our first studio show and maybe last. We can do hard things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human. Forever dog is our production partner and you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and at we can do hard things show on Tik Tok.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!"?

Glennon Doyle (Host), Abby Wambach (Host), Emily Sailors (Guest), Amy Ray (Guest), Melissa Etheridge (Guest).

What is "INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!" about?

The Indigo Girls, composed of Emily Sailors and Amy Ray, have made significant contributions to the music industry over four decades, advocating for various social justice causes while continuously producing acclaimed work, including their latest album, "Look Long." Melissa Etheridge, recognized for her powerful lyrics and distinctive voice, made a similar impact with her hits and the…

What is mentioned in this We Can Do Hard Things episode?

11 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Indigo Girls, Melissa Ethridge, Amy Ray, Emily Sailors, Ethridge Foundation, Look Long. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!"?

The episode runs 1 h 21 min; the transcript is about 15,084 words in 330 timestamped sections.

More from We Can Do Hard Things

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 15, 2026.