Transcript

Jon Batiste + Suleika Jaouad: WHAT IS ENOUGH?

From We Can Do Hard Things · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 13 min · 11,322 words · 171 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Jon Batiste + Suleika Jaouad: WHAT IS ENOUGH?", an episode of We Can Do Hard Things published December 4, 2025 (1 h 13 min, about 11,322 words). It mentions 8 people, works and ideas, including John Batiste, Sulea Jawad, American Symphony, Big Money, Between Two Kingdoms.

What this episode is about

Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad engage in a heartfelt conversation about love, creativity, and the importance of connection in life. As a celebrated musician and a renowned author and cancer survivor, they share insights on nurturing relationships and embracing the world with a grounded and artistic perspective.

Key takeaways

  • Merging work with love is a creative hack, but control can sneak in like an uninvited guest.
  • Two artistic souls can thrive together, but boundaries are essential to prevent work from overshadowing love.
  • Is the touring life a blissful romance or a challenging relationship experiment? The answer might depend on the city.
  • Being together constantly is a blessing, yet navigating the fine line between collaboration and connection takes skill.
  • Love and creativity flourish in harmony, but beware: the grind can steal the joy if you're not careful.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: John Batiste, Sulea Jawad, American Symphony, Big Money
  2. – 20:00: Big Money
  3. – 30:00: Our Place
  4. – 40:00: Jones Road Beauty, Our Place
  5. – 1:00:00: Big Money

Notable quotes from "Jon Batiste + Suleika Jaouad: WHAT IS ENOUGH?"

  • Yes, read. Got to go watch that. So freaking good. John Batist is a seventime Grammy and an Academy Award-winning artist whose music moves between jazz, soul, classical, and pop.
    about John Batiste · at
  • That is the caption of this. So my question to you all is how like when you put out big money John I at first before I heard it I was like I felt betrayed I was like what then I was like thank God when I can you talk to us about how you all.
    about Big Money · at
  • Touching up a few highlights or changing your color every month, your hair can stay healthy. Shop K18's mask at Sephora or get 10% off your first purchase with code hard things at k18hair.com.
    about K18 · at
  • Long and once they're gone, they're gone. Also, as a treat for our listeners, you'll get a free cool gloss on your first purchase when you use code we can do hard things at…
    about Jones Road Beauty · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • John Batiste — Person · Main guest · 3 mentions · first at
    Co-interview subject discussing creativity, touring/collaboration with his wife, and the spiritual/ethical tension between art and money (including his album 'Big Money').
  • Sulea Jawad — Person · Main guest · 2 mentions · first at
    Co-interview subject discussing writing, creative practice, perfectionism/creative injury, illness experience, and collaboration with her husband; introduced via her memoirs and Substack newsletter.
    How to love each other better and how to love the world better. it's a must listen. Sulea Jawad is the author of the New York Times bestselling memoirs, The Book of Alchemy…

Books & papers

  • Between Two Kingdoms — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    Another New York Times bestselling memoir by Sulea Jawad, highlighting her literary contributions.
    How to love each other better and how to love the world better. it's a must listen. Sulea Jawad is the author of the New York Times bestselling memoirs, The Book of Alchemy…

Products & tech

  • Big Money — Product · Primary recommendation · 6 mentions · first at
    John Batiste's ninth studio album, discussed in the context of art, money, and staying true to one's creative essence.

Media & podcasts

  • American Symphony — Media · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at
    Oscar-nominated documentary featuring Sulea Jawad and John Batiste, discussed as part of their collaborative projects.
    A three-time cancer survivor and visual artist, she appears with her husband, John Batist, in the Oscar nominated documentary American Symphony.

Sponsors

  • K18 — Product · Sponsor · 3 mentions
    Hair care product sponsor of the podcast, mentioned during an ad read.
  • Our Place — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Cookware sponsor of the podcast, mentioned during an ad read.
    If you're still using a pan from 10 years ago that's impossible to clean, let me help you out. Our places cookware set will upgrade your kitchen in one fell swoop. The set…
  • Jones Road Beauty — Product · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at
    Makeup sponsor of the podcast, mentioned during an ad read.

Full transcript with timestamps

Okay, Pod Squad. If you are feeling today like you could uh use just a big warm security blanket wrapped around you and just something that is going to make your heart feel full and your mind expand and make you just relax for a minute on this earth.

Hands down one of my favorite conversations we've ever had. I love these two so freaking much. Oh my god, I can't. So, one of the people today Abby describes as her favorite people on the planet.

Last night at dinner, she said, "I think I think he's just the best person, period."

In the world, and that's how I feel about the other one, Sulea. So, the people we have today are Sulea Jawad and John Batiste. I will read their bios even though everyone knows who they are. But yeah, what you need to know first about this conversation is that they are an incredibly grounded but creative and loving couple who talk about life in the world in a way that we just need to hear more of. And today they're talking to us about art and creativity and love and how to love each other better and how to love the world better. Um it's a must listen. Sulea Jawad is the author of the New York Times bestselling memoirs, The Book of Alchemy, and Between Two Kingdoms. She writes the Isolation Journals, the number one literature newsletter on Substack, and wrote the New York Times Life Interrupted column.

A three-time cancer survivor and visual artist, she appears with her husband, John Batist, in the Oscar nominated documentary American Symphony.

Yes, read. Got to go watch that. So freaking good. John Batist is a seventime Grammy and an Academy Award-winning artist whose music moves between jazz, soul, classical, and pop. His ninth studio album, Big Money, is out now. Audiences also know John from his Oscar-winning score for his chart topping album Beethoven Blues and the acclaimed documentary American Symphony, which celebrates his artistry, resilience, and love with his wife, Sulea, at the height of his creative powers. Pod Squad, I am so happy to give you the gift of Sulea and John.

One of my favorite double dates ever. We did it. Hi, John. I've never met you. Hello. Hi. How are you?

We're so good. I'm Glennon. I'm Abby. I We met briefly Oh, yeah. Long time ago.

Yeah. at an event, but I'm sure you don't remember. John remembers everyone. That's one of his many, many gifts.

Yeah. So, so it's it's nice to be here in these boxes. Yes. On the uh box within a box. You see,

as God intended. As God intended friendships to be. Yes. Human to human interaction.

That's right. We're staying human, John, is what we're doing. We We locked in. How is your morning, you guys? Where are you? What's going on? We're in Nashville. The sun's shining. We're together. You know, I just came off of a tour bus about an hour ago. And uh we've been moving. We've done maybe five shows in a row in the last four or five days. So now I'm here and we're here together.

I'm so excited. I get to see John perform at the Ryman tomorrow night, which is going to be

the Grand Old Opry tomorrow. The Ryman was uh last time. Stand corrected. No, no, no. It's the same thing.

But yeah, but but but uh yeah, we on the road now together. I love when we get to be on the road. We did a tour. When was the tour we did together? It was like

in April. Something we never done before. Ever. The best experience ever. Why? What was it like to be on tour together?

I love it. I I would I I'm I'm ready to retire doing my thing and do our thing.

It's so good. I feel like this is a hack that the two of you have unlocked. It can be scary to work with your significant other, but if you really not only love each other, but like each other, merging work worlds means that you get to be together more often.

You just get to be together and you know, you get paid. That is a nice hack. In theory, one gets paid.

In theory, one gets paid. Ideally, I'm seeing the vision. See, Glenn and Abby, y'all got it hooked up. See, I see the vision. Come on. I I I I understand.

I mean, you guys, we actually, it is wonderful. And we have found many wonderful things about it. But since we're talking about this, you should know that we are actually in a moment of trying to undo a lot of it

because we just figured out maybe like a month or two ago that we have gotten ourselves to the point where most of our conversations, our dynamic is about work and like then these weird dynamics come in that I don't know, it's like we're controlling each other more than loving each other or something. Um, so yes. Awesome. And also it's like everything else. I can't figure out what the right combination is.

You're describing it like a third party. It's something that's there that's not supposed to be there and it's getting in the way of you being together.

That's right. So yeah, that's a very very wise thing to share. I I I I I felt like we we're at that first stage of it where it's not we're doing something that allows for us to be together in a way that allows for us to also be creative, to tell stories about how we met in all the different aspects of our life that align and help to inspire other people by doing that.

So, it feels like um we're touring, but it also feels like we're kind of hanging out on stage. But I could imagine if you did that for for a longer period of time, it could become an idol of sorts.

Yes. And it wasn't without its challenges. Yeah. We're very similar and in certain very important ways complete opposites. So like I am a planner. I like to, you know, write out everything I'm going to say. I study it. I memorize it sometimes and you know within that I'll do a little improv and John prepares in his own way but what he loves more than anything is throwing out the script. So, night two of tour, I think it was in Chicago.

Mhm. We're supposed to be on stage in about 30 minutes. Salt said, "I'm getting my hair and makeup done." And John's like, "Here's what didn't work last night,

and let's change the whole structure of what we've spent weeks and months planning." And I start to get this like panicked, like wideeyed, whaleeyed look. And I'm like, "We can't do that." And John says, "Well, do you want to make it better or do you want to do what we prepared?" And I completely broke down. I had a panic attack. I started sobbing. All my makeup was dripping down my face. And John was like, "Let's push the show by like 20 minutes." And I was like, "We can't do that. I'm already a mess. Now I'm worried that people are going to be mad at us because they've been waiting."

And by the time I got on stage, I was such a frazzled mess that this very strange thing happened. And I was kind of mad at John, too. Like I was mad at him for messing up our perfect plan. Mad at him for in my mind inducing this panic. And I just kind of looked over at him. And in my mind, I was like, "Oh, you want to improvise? I'll show you improvisation. And I went completely off script. And I will say, you know, this is the kind of difficult dance of collaboration within a romantic relationship. It was probably my favorite onstage experience.

And I couldn't have admitted it exactly after the show because I was still just sort of thrown by the whole thing. But I was grateful to you for pushing me there.

Yeah. Well, I know you. So, people people who work together that have the chemistry in the thing, it's kind of like a a a relationship. It's kind of like somebody who you know that's an ESP and you can play something or you can say something and then they'll finish the sentence or they'll finish the chord and the rhythm will come together. Something will happen. It's like boom. So like sometimes that requires a push and it I I I don't have um any any method about improvisation. It's more about finding the connection that's the most real. What's the realest authentic?

Not any shred of fakeness, any shred of getting in the way of the signal. Just get all of the noise out of the way of the signal. So, whatever we have to do to get there, I know it's gonna everybody's going to be happy in the end. So, um, and also I got some push from this one, too.

So, it's a it's a two-way street. You got to have both. You got to have the the uh the love and the honesty to know that you can carry the weight of the push

and you can sustain the push because that's the power there. There's power in that kind of honesty because people don't see that very often. So when you show people that that's what's really inspiring, not the notes and stuff that that's nice, but the real thing is the the inspiration.

Oh, there's something about if you could stay in that place, it might be all right. It's like there's something about the structure and sticking to the structure and me saying, "But we're supposed to do it this way and hers." That's the problem

is the not problem is what you just described. But I think a lot of this has to do with our the origin of our our specific arts. John, I'm a little bit more like you and you're a little bit more like Slega. Writers like a container. They like to control the sentences, their ideas, and they like the structure. I don't mean to say control, but I do think that there's a little bit of that. And I think John with your your background in music in the way that like jazz music is off the cuff and it's live and it's energy and it's your essence coming out right and your essence comes out in a different fashion and I'm not saying one is right or the other because I have learned so much from you because I am like off-the cuff that is like basically in my bio like I do not plan I am myself that is how I do it but I also think that there is something to be said about pushing each other in to the in the direction of

each other. And I wonder as a cautionary tale, there might be like a a a place that you don't want to get into because we are trying to navigate how to not because there's part of me that wants to be too much like Glennon and there's maybe part of Glennon that wants to be too much like me. And so how do you how do you guys find the balance in that co-c collaboration to not mesh?

Yeah. And I want to know how does Sulea push you, John? Yeah. How do I push you? Well, it's so funny you mentioned uh a form of structure and a form of of creating some sort of scaffolding so that we know all of the beats and we know exactly what order the beats will come in. Now, for me, I like to know, okay, this is what the essence of what we're saying is. This is the the the heart of it. If if we say this sentence a hundred times in a row and nothing else, we'll have conveyed the heart of the message.

That's good. And then everything else around that, I like to follow the spirit in the moment and and and and try to get to the heart of that message and all the different ways that the spirit makes available in that moment. Now that sometimes is not the best plan because will you know having something in the trunk and establishing a certain flow allows for the spirit to move even more freely.

And you know as someone who I've just been leading band since I was 15 and I've always been the one that dictates the pace and the flow and the direction. When you're on stage and you got a co-band leader is another star. So you gotta you gota there's a push.

Yeah. There's it's it's not a bad thing, but it's also it's a push from what I'm used to. So you have to figure out how to create space that's not only making space because there's another person that has a viewpoint that you love and you want to share the stage with, but also because it just will make it better. And how do you find the the the alchemy of those two elements coming together

and not just okay we have the equal proportions but how do you make the the the whole greater than the sum of the parts?

That's good. That's right. Well, let us know any more tricks you have. Um, it it's interesting because I feel like you all are always it feels like you all are circling around a lot of things that we're always circling around. Okay. So, like you know, so like you and I have been trying to figure out how to be artists and capitalists for a while at the same time like how do you do art and then promote the art and keep your soul and all of that. I wanted to ask you guys. I I we were on this lake vacation recently and with the family and the kids took a picture of me. Abby threw two lines to me on the dock. So I was holding two lines.

Boat lines. Yeah. So I was holding two lines like this. They were pulling me in opposite directions and it was ridiculous. I felt like I was going to fall in. And the kids took a picture of me and the I looked at the picture and my first thought was, "Oh, here I am trying to serve God and money. This is my that is the caption of this." So my question to you all is how like when you put out big money John I at first before I heard it I was like I felt betrayed I was like what then I was like thank God when I can you talk to us about how you all when you're in your home and away from the world talk about like what is enough and how does not enoughness ruin every like what are your talks around art and money and how to stay true to your art and also get it to people. It's been an ongoing conversation since day one. And you know, in the early days, it was more tied to like how do we pay our bills,

which in some ways makes things a lot easier because enough is quite literal in that context. like how do we make enough to pay our rent, to pay our phone bills, to do the work that we really want to do that may or may not be profitable. I think that's the double-edged sword of success and the feeling of the goalposts constantly moving. I think we're both people who from the time that we were little, there is no such thing as enough in terms of our creative growth. We're always pushing ourselves. We're always asking ourselves the question like, "How do we make this better?" It's a challenge and it's something that we're navigating. It's something that you explored quite literally in the making of Big Money. And um I feel these sort of dual and dueling impulses to want to build something and to make it as big and beautiful as it can be.

And then we talk a lot about retirement. We want to shut the whole machine down. We want to hibernate. We want to kind of tuck into ourselves and not have to participate in that way. And so I don't know the answer to that question. Um I think it's a work in progress. It's something we're constantly reassessing. Um and that we Yeah.

Yeah. You're constantly at war with the monster that's within. We all have one that's within. The best way to deal with it is to stare it in the eye and to let it know its place. Mhm.

You got to look at it because the thing is if you don't look at it, it's going to creep up behind you and get closer and closer and then pretty soon it'll be right up on you. Take over.

We are constantly warning with our our nature. So you you you have to think about the aspect of that not just from a career perspective but from a spiritual one. And then you have to think about well what is the work that only I can do? What is the work in the world that only I can do? And then let me do that to the best of my ability. And what you'll see is there's a resonance in that that that makes whatever success or lack thereof in terms of the worldly standard that comes with that worth it. So then there's a level of fulfillment within while you balance this fight with the monster. And then from there I think it's a question of how much do you give?

You know biblical principles 10%. But what what is giving? How do you define that? And that's really the thing. And as you grow and as the goalposts move and as things expand and your your your vision of yourself and what you can contribute to the world to the community that you're part of to society all of that expands then how you give changes. So it's like a constant you you got to constantly grapple with it and then the systems of the world and the way that things are built are impossibly corrupt. that. So even in the context of a thing that you're doing that you have the greatest of intention of being a part of there's something or someone or some place that it hurts.

It it everything in every single vertical society is rooted in some level of impurity. So you have to find a way to to to to to orient yourself, find equilibrium within all of that.

And that that's a really it's a really conscious effort. You have to be very sober minded

and you have to continuously push forward in a way where you understand exactly where you're standing at every moment. And that's that's the key. It's hard, but I mean that's as much as we figured out so far. So in your metaphor, what is the beast? Yes. Is it ambition?

I mean it can is the beast is different for for different people. Everybody has one though. Don't fool yourself and think you don't have one.

Yeah. I'm reminded a friend of ours um was is on the dating apps and and looking for a partner and and and was considering potentially, you know, pursuing something with an individual she met on the apps and John said, "What is his relationship to his beast?" And it was such an interesting question because, you know, some people allow their beast to devour them. Other people pretend the beast isn't there.

Um, and and it's something I've been reflecting upon a lot. And and what you've been thinking about that Boo

talk about, huh? I think my beast is a little bit like a Chimera. like it it has like multiple heads to it. But, you know, ambition is one of those things that I think especially for men is prized and valued. As a woman, it can be a little trickier.

I like ambition. It's the thing that drives me. It's the thing that makes me push through my own resistance. But one of the heads that sprouts from from my ambition beast is is that that that kind of perfectionistic tendency that when taken to an extreme can feel like a kind of prison.

And you know Glenna to your earlier point it's like yeah we're writers we love our words. We want to say things just the way we want to say them. And so in an onstage context, like sometimes that can be limiting because I'm so attached to the words that I wrote in my preparation or in my script that I miss the moment. I miss the opportunity to feel the energy of the crowd and and to have that really improvisational magic that can only happen when you're actually listening and you're not like reading off of a teleprompter in your mind. Um, other times though it prevents me from experimenting and taking risks and I want to be good so badly um that I don't allow myself the freedom to explore and mess up and um and to open myself up to a kind of uncertainty. that feels scary, but that when I lean into it quickly shifts from like a fear of what I don't know to a sense of awe and excitement at the mystery of what's

possible. Interesting. Yeah. Did you write that beforehand and just read? NO, I DIDN'T.

WOW. SEE, but I think that what you both are saying is so true in that the beast or the monster, however you want to categorize it, lives with within us. And so many people, and myself included, at certain times in my life, I think that my identity is that, but I don't know that it's maladaptive. I don't know that it's working not in my best interest in terms of my like soul's best, highest best interest. And so I don't know. What do you think the beast is for you?

Well, it's interesting because everyone says ambition, but but ambition is just a an empty word. It's like what? Ambition for what is the question? Because

ambition for what? Like if if the if we define what we're ambitious about in a way that is true to us. I mean I was listening to an interview that you did actually and we made our entire family watch it John and you I think quoted monk and you said a genius is the one who sounds most like himself. Mhm.

So if if ambition is aligned with that for a creative that my ambition is to make my life and my art and my relationship most myself then then unbridled ambition might not be dangerous

but if ambition is tied to relevance and the metrics that the world does in being perceived a certain way and be it is a monster. So like so like when you say ambition what do you mean? What are you ambitious for?

So I think you know we started this by talking about what's enough. And I think where ambition can dip into dangerous territory is when it's an unconssidered yearning for more. Uh but you're not defining what more is. Uh it's just like more and more and more more and more and more and you start to just feel like this kind of like gluttonous uh appetite, but there's no you haven't identified what more is and and and and what's meaningful to you uh about what you want more of.

Yes. And so when I find myself in this kind of cycle of just I'm adding things, I'm doing things and I don't even really know why or if I'm even enjoying them. That's where it starts to get tricky.

And John, what are you ambitious for? And what is your monster, your beast? Huh? Well, you see, I want to be great. And that requires you to have a certain focus. And I feel like that focus can be wonderful if it's not misaligned with your quiet time with God. M

if you start to make that become your god that you worship then your your talent becomes an idol and your gift that you've been given to cultivate to work on to share becomes a form of self-indulgence even if it's helping people.

Now that's the thing right there. Yes. M even if it's helping people, I my belief is we're not here just to do the thing that we've been made to do, we're here to be on a spiritual journey with the creator. I love that the creator creates and created us in his image. And it's a beautiful image. It's an image of creation, of movement, of of spontaneity. There's also this this this vision of of of people and everybody's beautiful and everybody has their own divine spark and it's a light within them and it's you can lose track of it but you can never ever fully lose it.

So everybody you see everybody you're supposed to see all of this love and energy that's coming from these these people and that is not work.

That's not head down. That's a way of life. That's a form of existence and you need quiet time and you need time to reflect on all of the wonders of of of what that is

and and be in communion. So for me that's the the the the big thing. This the pursuit of some imagined level of of achievement in a pantheon that's also equally imagined to create a legacy for what.

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ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. because of the state of the world. I have not been doing very well lately just in general. So, and I'll leave it at that, but I was talking to a friend Brandy, my friend Brandy Carlilele, who was in the middle of finishing her album and doing she's the best, and she was doing a little bit better mentally than I was. And we were talking about it. And she said, "Have you been writing?" And I said, "No, I've been activating and organizing." And she said, "I just don't think that you're obsessed enough with anything right now."

Huh. And I just blew it off. I was like, "Okay, whatever." And then that night in bed I was like and so my question is you two deal with hard things all the time. Okay like in your personal lives in the world you you are not bypassers of pain. How is art connected to anxiety? Does it help you? Do you have to be obsessed with something to survive?

And also is anxiety a precursor to creation? You want me to you? You go and then I'll go. Yeah.

Okay. You want me to go for Okay. Okay. I no I think everything beautiful has to come from some level of tension. Joy comes from pain. There's never a scenario where you have an expression of a person that doesn't come without some sort of journey or some sort of epiphany or realization that comes from being in opaque gray darkness. The essence of of of creative expression is catharsis. It's release. It's this moment that is a shining beacon when you are lost. And now I want to share it on stages and on the rooftop. I want to go. So anxiety is a part of the equation. not necessarily to to creation, but it's a part of the human experience that leads to the impulse to create

and um or or uncertainty rather. And and I believe that I believe you have to have a um it's kind of what we're talking about facing the the the beast. You have to have an element of um of of of of darkness within the context of of you shining the light.

What about you, Sue? I'm forgetting who said this, but someone said this. These are not my words said that a mosaic is a conversation between what's broken. And so it's not so much that for me the creative impulse necessarily arises from pain. Like I think of like most children who have this unbridled connection to their creativity. They're playing make believe. They're tapping into their imaginations. They're making gloriously messy finger paintings. It's not because they're like a brooding, self-destructive artist who then feels the impulse to make the masterpiece,

but I I like and it really resonates with me what you said um about it stemming from tension. And tension for me can be a question that I find myself circling around. It can be an attempt to figure out how to put together a mosaic of broken pieces or at least to understand how they're in conversation with each other. And you know, I think the challenging thing about creativity as we get older is it can be both a self to an anxiety and a source of anxiety in and of itself. And so at some point that pilot light of self-consciousness ignites as we get older and we start to sort ourselves into categories like I'm a bad artist, I'm a good artist, I'm the arts are not for me, uh whatever it is.

And so I think we both very much believe that everyone is deeply creative and and more than that that there's great value in cultivating a creative practice. And so once again where things get tricky for me uh is is when you enter you know trying to make a living from your creative work into the equation. Uh, so if I'm by myself and I'm journaling or I'm just painting for myself, whatever it might be, that is a source of joy. It's an antidote to whatever is plaguing me. The second I try to imagine anyone uh let alone, you know, a faceless public um consuming that creative work. That's where things start to shift. I start to wonder, is this good? Um, is this interesting?

Uh, will this be criticized? Or worst of all, will this be entirely ignored? Whatever it is. Um, and that gives me a great deal of anxiety.

Yeah. You know, I don't think that artist until the the modern age, there's not really been a precedent for the way that art is is taking the place as a commodity in society.

So, I don't really think that the relationship to creating similar to like when you think about a child, they're trying to make sense of the world. There's a natural tension to the way that they are and the way that the world is

and they their their impulse is to be a certain way which over time as you say that pilot light of self-conscious they learn to not be that way or hopefully they retain it

but I think that's the best example which is is not tied to an audience or a profit

is only because of you know the invention of these media delivery systems, uh, the phonograph record and RCA Victor and the then the CD and streaming and TV and all of the ways of the satellite being able to broadcast the thing. But for centuries, artists in society were the ones who they they they knew literature and they had a certain wisdom and they were the griots and the magical and the trouidors and the the the toast tellers and they had the oral tradition and they would pass it on. since the first drum and the writers and the scribes would create the history and the mythology of a place and a people and pass it on. And it was a way it was a part of the fabric of everyday life and it was music and and and and writing and and and painting and and it became a part of how people gather in community. Um, and that's when it actually had, I believe, the deepest meaning that we've gotten away from.

And the things we res that we resonate with most are the things that have that meaning that are also entertaining. But these things are much more than entertainment. It's a form of our communal gathering and spiritual practice. And if we look at them like that, I think that makes it a lot easier. Now, it's harder because we're in this system. Again, that's impossibly corrupt, but but the aspect of seeing it for what it is helps me a lot. And children are a great great example of that because, you know, they don't know yet. And uh and the tension with them is not as much anxiety as it is wow this is my nature and people are trying to box me in

and uh their nature is the truest to the source of creativity itself. Yeah. And there just something about being the sub the subject of the artist and not switching into perceiving yourself like that is whatever my beast is something about that because sometimes when I'm saying to Abby I just don't know if I'm doing enough if I'm being good enough if I'm giving enough. I don't think that's what I mean because I know I am. I think what I mean is I don't know if I'm being perceived as giving enough, being good enough, being whatever, which is gross to admit, but I think that's what I mean. Am I being perceived?

It's not about all about output. It's about how I'm being perceived. And that's what an artist being a part of this modern world, what what is added to it, right?

When did that start for you? And when did you start to feel the weight of perception?

I mean, probably really young, like as a young girl, and just noticing that the way people perceived me was tied to my power to move in the world

or sometimes tied to a withdrawal of power, withdrawal of validation. I mean, I I can pinpoint for me like an exact moment where my relationship to creativity changed. And the like the phrase we use between the two of us is is creative injury. Um, and so like 8th grade, I'd always loved to write. I was doing in my journal. And I had this wonderful English teacher who invited us as an extra credit project to write a short story. And I was so excited. I was like, "Oh, yes. This is my moment where I'm going to move beyond the journal and I'm gonna do a really good job." And so I spent all of spring break filling up an entire yellow legal pad with a novella. It was like 70 pages or however many pages are in a legal pad. And I handed this thing in

and the next week everyone got their assignments back except me. And I was thinking to myself, "Oh, I did such a good job that my teacher is waiting to have a one-on-one with me.

I was expecting publication, like possibly a literary agent, maybe a parade. I don't know."

And oh my god. Later that day, I got summoned to the school psychologist's office and they were holding my yellow legal pad with my story on it uh to discuss some of the concerning themes in my story. So, I was on a real reading journey in 8th grade and had been heavily drawing upon some of my most recent inspiration. And I had just read Lolita's Nebachov and a Paul BS novel set in Morocco. So my novella,

as eighth graders do, as eighth graders do, my nolla featured um a protagonist who was a 13-year-old uh sex worker sat in an opium den in tangers.

You're so awesome. funny to me now, but I was so horrified. And the worst part was the teacher never said a word to me about it. And I felt like I had done a bad thing. I felt humiliated. I was honestly grateful that she didn't tell my parents about it. But it took me um until the age of 22 to ever show my writing to anybody again.

Wow. Um and so I think you know we all have these creative injuries um at some point in childhood or adolescence or adulthood um where you lose that pure connection

to your creativity where you become conscious of the perception of others and then the work becomes like trying to get back to that free flowing space. And so for me, like I write all of my first drafts in my journal because I have to trick myself into thinking this is the writing that doesn't count. It's the writing just for me. The second I open a Word doc,

I get scared. I freeze up. It's like the blinking cursor is just like a warning sign of all the possible pitfalls and dangers that can befall me. And I can't write anything true. Um, I start to self-edit before I've even figured out what I'm even saying.

Me, too. I tell Abby, I'm like this. I think this is why Jesus only wrote in the sand. Like, I can't write things that will be stuck forever. That's terrifying to me suddenly.

Totally. Do you have Did you do you remember any creative injury, John, or did you skip over that part?

Oh, no. I had a a wealth of of I had a uh a season I think uh I think about my upbringing and it's um it's so funny because there's a whole period of time that didn't feel particularly creative and uh seemed uh pretty much like um a uh a a purgatory There's a lot of u neighborhood bullies and lot of antics, a lot of different energy. You know, a very classic American upbringing uh in a suburb outside of New Orleans, very provincial kennel, Louisiana. We got a railroad track separating it and uh you know where you got a railroad track and a river.

There's a a certain mythology to that. But you did have some significant creative injuries. Oh yeah, after that.

After that and like John always says to me, you have to get your rejection in. And so rejection was a really big part of those early years and figuring out how in spite of being perceived in various ways, what you do with that injury. John has his own school psychologist story, thoroughly enough.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Don't we all? Yeah. And it really is. People always say the oneliners about rejection and all that and it kind of can feel like [ __ ] except that it's the truest thing that if you are so fearful like the number one fear is like public shaming, right? It's like any sort of someone's going to tell me I'm not good enough. So the best thing that can happen to you is that early on and then you survive it because then you're not equating it with death anymore.

But I also think that it's about cuz I think that that happened to me. I had a guidance counselor that she said to me, Abby, you're never going to make it playing soccer. She literally said that like you're never going to play soccer. Like you're never going to be able to make money play soccer. So you need to like work harder on your studies. I mean, she had a point. But I think that because the way that our constitutions are made up and the way that these crafts and these gifts sit with inside us, those things, whether it be a counselor or somebody saying like this isn't this isn't right with your novella, like it that kind of creates the trajectory of like, oh, thank you. like and we don't know this for very much later until we can actually prove it to ourselves that we in fact are writers or musicians or athletes.

And so there's a part of me that though it probably would have been less painful, I think that there that element is almost like that creative injury is almost part of the impulse that that the way we are wired

pushes us in the direction of either proving that one rejection wrong. Yeah. It's the tension he was talking about. It creates tension of creation. You know, it's interesting you said proving it wrong because I think you're someone who responds to a creative injury, especially if it's externally inflicted by being like watched.

You'll see. And it's like I'm someone who isn't always able to do that. Um I'm someone who's like, "Oh, you saw something about me that I didn't fully clock and shame on me for not seeing that." And I

Interesting. I immediately assume my my reflex is to assume that whatever that outward perception is is truer than my own perception.

I have to actively work at reorienting myself to rejection or to creative injury. And so I'm so curious, John, for you where that comes from because you had a lot of people from the outside telling you what you're doing is wrong or what you're doing is bad or what whatever it is.

H I I don't know where it came from in the early days other than just a a a drive and intuition and a sense of uh knowing. That's the kind of the thing we were talking about earlier where you feel this real compulsion to be and express authentically and it doesn't matter if there's aspects of of of rejection or aspects of tension involved with it. It's just your truest self and and and that's ultimately the best that you can do. And I guess I I attribute that to having great mentors and and um great parents to instill a sense of um of um values in that way.

But also I think about the history of the planet earth and the greatest souls have been the most rejected. Uh so I think the process of it I've gone through now is like I can articulate it is first I like to examine what is said to a degree whatever it is because you always want to have a a a sense of of being able to be objective and that's part of a foundation of humility within

you have that but then you got to look So most of the the things that I care about are rejected by the world. So and the people who count count the most, what do they think? What do they say? And then ultimately that inner knowing, you just got to know

and let that drive you because that's the one. Because if you're not doing it for that, everything else is external.

That's right. What are the things that you care about the most that the world rejects?

Well, I mean, look at look around. What I mean, look around. That's what the album is talking about. It's just the tip of the iceberg of talking about. Just look at the aspects of what's happening. We've we've stretched things beyond the natural limitation in almost every category

and it's created this epidemic of loneliness and isolation. Now, we're not in a time where everything is dark, and I don't want to be doom and gloom, but if you look at the aspect of things that we've achieved, and you measure that against the level of spiritual and moral decay, it's it's unfathomable.

And what's the culprit? Mammon, money, big money. Y you look at what what's driving everybody? What's driving what's our ultimate value system? was the thing that underlines everything and everybody who was a part of this system has to deal with the ramifications of that.

So I I I just feel like the purity of what we could be and who we are as souls on this earth, this planet earth, our common home, which has been stretched beyond its natural limitation

in pursuit of what I mean. I don't want to soap box y'all, but that's just kind of, you know, We look around. It's But but uh but we here we still got some uh some joy warriors out here pushing, shaking.

But even in a smaller level, like I think of jazz music, which in this day and age is

Yeah. something that like a guidance counselor as your guidance counselor did is probably not likely to advise you to pursue as a career path that's going to pay the bill.

Fair, right? No. No. Listen, you got to do it because you love it. But that's interesting because it starts there. Well, that's connected. It's like if the thing that we're all going towards is money and the big money, then then you're being advised as a 9-year-old to give up the thing that you that expresses you because it won't ultimately serve this thing that we're all guiding everybody towards. So that's all connected.

You laying it out, Glenn Gl. Huh? Like if ambition were tied to something else. If ambition were tied to like every adult around you is trying to figure out who you are at your essence and then figure out how to guide you on a path that will allow you to be that forever. And then we figured out because even the term like earn a living is so insane. Like oh my god we've we accept that. We accept that we have to earn our right to exist. And it's it's a whole paradigm that would change how we served children, I think, if we changed what we're ambit ambitious for.

Well, and I also think it's it's not allowing us to fully develop our human essence because it's being it's not being cultivated in us throughout our younger adolescence and younger years. It's you're told you need to go do this, you need to go do that, and you need to train and become coder and and get into computer science because that's the future and that's the where all the jobs and the money are. But then you're getting coders who aren't completely de developed or evolved. And so even the evolution of the way that tech and science, it's we're not nobody's their full selves because it's being

it's not being cultivated in us as children. And so you show up to to be your authentic self and you don't even know what the hell that means.

That's right. You're like, I know how to code. Our beloved uh friend Liz gives what she calls her purpose talk, which I'm sure we've all heard, which is, you know, this this sort of toxic messaging that we receive from the time we're very very young that you have to find your singular per purpose. you have to master that purpose and you have to monetize it and become the best at the world in it. And it's so much pressure. And she, you know, I I think of her every day. She offers like such a gentler corrective which instead of being fixated on identifying a passion or a purpose, just following the threads of your curiosity.

And you know, I think um so many people suffer from feeling like they haven't found a purpose or a passion and more than that, they haven't earned a living by monetizing that sense of purpose or passion. And and I think we do a a great disservice not just to children um but to our ongoing possibilities of changing our minds about what we're curious about of being able to pursue something because you're obsessed with it because it's fun without necessarily having to figure out how to translate that into something that pays your bills.

That's right. That's why I feel sad for you, Sulea, that your painting is so good.

I know. I mean, that's what I'm thinking about when I'm I'm like, "Oh, no. She's so good at this. What are you going to do?" Because I am protected from my painting ever being monetized.

No, that's not true. First in line to buy a painting. Okay. Well, you you would

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That's 15% off at wearfigs.com with codesf figs rx. You guys, I have to know this personally. I have two more questions. since I know you guys are so busy. But number one, I want to know what your last argument was about and why. That's my favorite thing is figuring out what people argue about. And then I also want to know what each of your it I don't even know what the words are. Relationship to orientation towards spirituality and God. Two completely different things.

Yeah, that's nice. That's I I love we talking about all of these major themes. Abundance out of order is gluttony.

And that's a deep world we in. I think when we uh when we think about the second question, you mean what do we believe or what will we

even separately like how do you how is your relationship to God separate like when you talk about how to know where what's real creativity and how you're able to keep going even when the world is rejecting what I'm thinking in my head is, okay, he must have a real daily practice with God. Because the people that I know who are in daily practice with God, it's like um you know, when you're painting and you put the the uh gesso, whatever on, it's like it protects you.

It like protects the canvas from all the other [ __ ] that's going to come. You know what I mean?

So, when I'm not in that, I'm way more susceptible to what the world thinks of me.

Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Yeah. I'm I'm Christian. I believe that we are in a broken world. So that is helping to to to understand and also have empathy for for the brokenness of of this whole system, this whole aspect of our time on earth is to figure out how do we shine our light and point to the source of all things. For me, when I think about Jesus Christ and what that really the the the the message of the gospel is is that the world is broken, but there's hope.

And if you think about hope, it's sometimes hard to have or hard to see. So that's the idea of faith. And then that's the practice. How do you instill faith even in times when you don't see a hope when you don't have a a a vision of the best in people or the best in in um in the systems of the world and you're trying to move through the world and you're trying to be light and you're trying to be the best version of yourself and to raise your your your gifts to their highest divine potential and order. It's a it's uh it definitely is helpful for me. Um and I think that it's it's a way of living that has in many facets been corrupted by people. So when you see the corruption of it in different ways, that's also a challenge against it. But then the truest and most most pure essence of it is in the word of God. So I try to connect to that and to find that through every single action, every single mo

moment, every motivation. In a nutshell, it's how you live. Yeah. Yeah. It's how you live. There's a way to live that's Christianlike. There's the fruits of the spirit. There's aspects of understanding that you have for the origin of all things, the the the state of of humanity and how you treat people, how you exist that can point people in a direction of the divine. That's what I mean there's there's a lot more to that and it's it's a journey and there's a there's so much that can be said about that about this one but it's it's how you live.

You can profess something and not live it. Yeah. That's like when she's the opposite of when Gandhi said it's we love your Jesus. Your Christians just aren't any we I don't see Jesus in your Christians. And Sule is like the flip of that.

Yes. You guys are so cool. Yeah, you two are so cool. I said to Glendon, I want a non hologram double date. Okay, but can we flip the question on you two?

Yeah, that's what I was curious about that. You're like, which one? Which question?

Our our most fight recent fight or our a relationship to religion or our idea of God?

Um, both. both. Okay. Well, we got in a huge fight last night right? I wouldn't say it was a huge fight.

It's wasn't way to dust up. We just got in a little verbal uh conundrum. And Abby, who is much more good at being earnest and careful than I am, because I tend to shut down and get defensive, walked us through it like she was a therapist. and we slowed it down and found the fear inside of each of us. It was like the most lesbian situation. Just was

we were doing some real good parts work. We were doing some good parts work. Yeah.

So, we are um working on when there is conflict not mostly me not shutting down and hiding and protecting myself. It is very hard for me to stay open and soft when someone has pointed out something in me that I don't like. So like it's a version of when the world says mean things and I'm like okay you're right and I'm just going to shut down. As opposed to some the inherent like worth that some people have that they're like I can step into this conflict and survive. I can keep going and create and survive. Um I tend to be more of like a snail who just goes back into the shop.

Yeah. in the story you have is that you're bad or that you're not good. Yeah. And then the way that you respond is in protection of that or for the for the fear of that. And so I think that I think that having these kind of cuz over time and this is the way you guys know this in marriage and relationship. You start to know the other person so well that the way that you con go into conflict, you start to you start to go through the perspective of their perception and what they what they're going through. And so then that changes the the way that you would do it. And sometimes that's actually not good because it's allowing them to keep hiding or for me

to not say the thing that I need to say in the moment when you know. Yes. And what we're working on you guys that we figured out last night is I think that the meanest thing a couple can do to each other is so here we do this thing where I'm saying something that's like pretty I'm saying words that are kind but my energy is so judgmental and I am judging the [ __ ] out of you and but I know how to say the right words so this can't be proven in a court of law. Okay. Abby is reading my energy and is like, "WTF? Why are you being that way?" What we're trying to avoid at all costs is going into, "That's not what I was feeling. That's not what I was thinking.

You can't prove it. I said the right words." And like gaslighting the other one.

Do you know what I mean? How you're like, I'm reading you. I know that's what you're thinking. And so, we have to admit that energy to each other if we get if we're going to get to the kernel of the thing. It's the way in which when you've done a lot of therapy the same way you can speak medically or legally you can speak therapy and you can say things unimpeachably

but the un process untransformed feelings are still yeah behind those words we you know we've devised a shorthand uh we have a code word our code word is lunch meat And it's for situations when like we're in our feelings. we're we're we're tempted to shut down to withdraw because maybe we're feeling hurt or you know one of us is traveling and we haven't responded to a phone call instead of doing the thing I think that so many of us do when we perceive the other person is when the when you when you're feeling hurt is to yeah to get into your feelings to be passive aggressive to lash out to whatever it is we just say lunch meat which is the cue that what we need to do is to double down on expressing our love to each other. And when we do that, then you know the rest of the argument feels less like an argument and more like an actual conversation.

So good. I'm going to steal it. Last night, Abby said, "Can we have a safe a safe word?" You called it a safe word. This was not during sex. It was during the argument. Okay. And she and I was like, "No, that's And so now we will be doing that." Yes. Okay. We will make one after this

episode. We are so grateful for you. We yesterday, which was I've never heard Abby say in in her life. She was sitting there reading something about you guys and she goes, "I have a crush on John." And I was like, "That Abby Womb is I've ever heard you say. Friendship crush."

She said, "No, you said a personality crush." Personality crush. And I said, "I have a personality crush on Sulea."

Yeah. So, you guys are our personality crushes and we adore you. And please, next time we're Can we please just have a couch time with no cameras? Not that it will matter if it's not monetized, but I think we should try it anyway.

Yeah. I know you got you're you both are tired and you want to spend your time together. And so, I just wanted to say I appreciate you choosing to spend this time here with us in these boxes within the boxes. and let's do this in live in real life at some point.

We love you both. Really love you guys. The personality crushes are mutual. We love you both. We look forward to to our couch double date.

Oh yeah. Come on, couch. All right, Pod Squad. We'll see you next time. We can do hard things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and at we can do hard things show on Tik Tok.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Jon Batiste + Suleika Jaouad: WHAT IS ENOUGH?"?

Glennon Doyle (Host), Abby Wambach (Host), Jon Batiste (Guest), Suleika Jaouad (Guest).

What is "Jon Batiste + Suleika Jaouad: WHAT IS ENOUGH?" about?

Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad engage in a heartfelt conversation about love, creativity, and the importance of connection in life. As a celebrated musician and a renowned author and cancer survivor, they share insights on nurturing relationships and embracing the world with a grounded and artistic perspective.

What is mentioned in this We Can Do Hard Things episode?

8 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including John Batiste, Sulea Jawad, American Symphony, Big Money, Between Two Kingdoms. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Jon Batiste + Suleika Jaouad: WHAT IS ENOUGH?"?

The episode runs 1 h 13 min; the transcript is about 11,322 words in 171 timestamped sections.

More from We Can Do Hard Things

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 15, 2026.