Transcript

Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

From We Can Do Hard Things · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 32 min · 14,365 words · 262 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want", an episode of We Can Do Hard Things published October 9, 2025 (1 h 32 min, about 14,365 words). It mentions 10 people, works and ideas, including Katie Gavin, What a Relief, Abby Wambach, Muna, Resource Generation.

What this episode is about

Katie Gavin discusses the journey of self-discovery, emphasizing the importance of uncovering and expressing one's desires while honoring the past and fostering intergenerational healing. Through her music and personal experiences, she explores topics such as recovery, intimacy, and creating a more hopeful and habitable future for generations to come.

Key takeaways

  • Artistry and activism blend beautifully; Katie Gavin shows that vulnerability can spark intergenerational healing.
  • Desire isn't just a personal pursuit; it’s the heartbeat of community and connection, echoing through her music.
  • In a world of noise, listening to your body is the quiet revolution we all need to embrace.
  • Katie's journey proves that the courage to unleash your desires can rewrite your story and the stories around you.
  • The 'lead singer syndrome' is just beginner's mind in disguise—embrace the chaos of creation with a smile!

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Katie Gavin, Abby Wambach, What a Relief
  2. – 20:00: Muna, Girls Just Want a Weekend
  3. – 30:00: Sheamus
  4. – 40:00: What a Relief
  5. – 50:00: Katie Gavin
  6. – 1:00:00: Curl Smith
  7. – 1:10:00: Katie Gavin
  8. – 1:20:00: Resource Generation, Naomi Klein
  9. – 1:30:00: Resource Generation
  10. – 1:31:34: What a Relief

Notable quotes from "Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want"

  • Waiting so long and with such anticipation to do this conversation. we are talking today to one of the most important artists in our family's life.
    about Katie Gavin · at
  • And released her debut solo album, What a Relief, which is the soundtrack of Our Home this past October 2024. It's an album about desire for connection and the obstacles in the way of achieving.
    about What a Relief · at
  • We were going to Girls Just Want a Weekend in Mexico and Muno was performing there.
    about Girls Just Want a Weekend · at
  • Baby puppies everywhere around the world, forgive me for my ignorance because I am now thoroughly convinced that people who are not dog people are just people who have not had…
    about Sheamus · at
  • Can be tricky, and those of you with straight hair privilege will just have to take my word for it. So, when Curl Smith reached out to say they wanted to sponsor We Can Do Hard…
    about Curl Smith · at
  • Schoolers used it a few times. So, I don't know what that says, but I think it's probably a good thing. Seriously, I am stunned at how much I didn't know I needed this tread.…
    about Peloton · at
  • It's like I don't know if you've read the Naomi Klein's doppelganger.
    about Naomi Klein · at
  • Who like believe the same thing that I do that actually keeps me going. I'm a part of resource generation because then I'm accountable to like be with people every other Monday who like are like amazing activists who push me, you.
    about Resource Generation · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Katie Gavin — Person · Main guest · 8 mentions · first at
    Central interview subject; discusses artistry (MUNA + solo work), recovery, desire/agency, intergenerational healing, and political organizing/activism.
  • Abby Wambach — Person · Co-host (on-mic participant) · 1 mention · first at
    On-mic host/co-host voice: engages Katie Gavin on desire/agency, safety/privilege, recovery parallels, and relational dynamics; also referenced humorously as 'best friend'.
    Yeah. And that's my dream. And also she calls me a fem dom if you want to know what that means.
  • Naomi Klein — Person · Referenced expert/author · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as the author of 'Doppelganger' and as an intellectual influence for framing hoarding/defensiveness and political dynamics; used to connect personal and systemic themes.

Companies & orgs

  • Muna — Company · Affiliated_with · 2 mentions · first at
    The pop band Katie Gavin is a member of, currently working on a new album.
    Generation about how to live and how to look inside yourself for guidance and move forward. She is currently in the studio with Muna working on their forthcoming album.
  • Resource Generation — Company · Referenced_expert · 2 mentions · first at
    An organization focused on wealth redistribution and political education, mentioned in the context of discussing lineage and values.
  • Peloton — Company · Explicit_sponsor · 4 mentions
    Sponsor of the podcast, promoting their new treadmill product.
  • Curl Smith — Company · Explicit_sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Sponsor of the podcast, promoting their curl care products.

Products & tech

  • What a Relief — Product · Secondary_owned · 3 mentions · first at
    Katie Gavin's debut solo album, discussed as a significant personal and artistic project.
  • Sheamus — Product · Explicit_sponsor · 3 mentions · first at
    The family's dog, used in a promotional segment for Mave dog food.

Places & events

  • Girls Just Want a Weekend — Event · Incidental · 1 mention · first at
    An event where Muna performed, mentioned in passing during a personal anecdote.

Full transcript with timestamps

Welcome to we can do hard things. Um when I tell you that we have been waiting so long and with such anticipation to do this conversation. Um we are talking today to one of the most important artists in our family's life.

Yep. Not just artists but people activists just way of being people we look towards

and that's Katie Gavin. Katie Gavin. You'll see this conversation um healed parts of us. I think it it it made us feel hopeful for the future for the first time in a while. It is about so many things. It's about how to find that little kernel of desire inside of you and how to have the courage to unleash it out into the world. It's about intergenerational healing, about how to honor what's come before us while also letting go of what we don't want to take with us um into the future. It's about recovery and addiction and how to begin to make our lives that have become small bigger. It's about listening to the signals in our body. It's about how to live right now in a way that makes this planet habitable and more beautiful for the next generation. It's hard to believe that all of this is in the conversation.

You'll see. It's one of my f It's literally one of my favorite conversations we've ever had on We Can Do Hard Things.

Same. Katie Gavin is not only our personal hero, but is also a musician and member of the pop banda, of course. Life's so fun. Life's so fun, you know. And released her debut solo album, What a Relief, which is the soundtrack of Our Home this past October 2024. It's an album about desire for connection and the obstacles in the way of achieving that. Gavin's explorations of desire and intimacy are timeworn and so necessary right now. and her songs truly are sort of like a clarion call for her generation about how to live and how to look inside yourself for guidance and move forward. She is currently in the studio with Muna working on their forthcoming album.

And I just want to say this is going to I'm attaching this to Katie's bio. She is now my best friend.

Yes. Abby Wombok's best friend. Yeah. And that's my dream. And also she calls me a fem dom if you want to know what that means.

This is what's going to be going on our new bios now. Katie Gavin is now our best friend.

Enjoy. Yes, our girl. Yes. Hi, babies. Hi. So good to see you. Oh my gosh. Katie, this might be a normal day for you, but this is a very exciting day for us.

Shut up. No, I'm I'm excited. I'm nervous. Oh god. Us too. Katie, this is my sister Amanda. You know us, but you two haven't met.

Hi, babe. Hi, Katie. Very happy to know you. It's so nice to meet you. Where are y'all? This looks so good.

Oh, really? We're in our basement in a little corner that looks like this. And the whole rest of the room is [ __ ] Totally.

And Amanda is in her son's corner of the bedroom. Right. Mhm. Yeah. Glam. But technically, we're at home,

right? At home. We're at home. Where are you? I'm in my band's studio. I came here cuz I was like, "Oh, I want to like record with a microphone." And I got here an hour ago and I literally just figured out how to like get the microphone working with my computer. I'm like, how do I have a studio and it's this hard to do this? I don't know where anything is. I have like big time. We call it lead singer syndrome. Like I'm just I don't know what's going on.

I think I have that lead. I think you have lead singer. I think I have that. I'm going to call it that. That sounds so much better than the how I've referred to it.

Well, how do you refer to it? I call Well, I just call it beginner's mind, Katie. I think it's a Buddhist concept to not be aware of what's going on

and to just be freshly surprised constantly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Speaking of freshly surprised, we have to basic we're going to do our best to just be cool about all this, but

Yeah. By the end of the hour, you're gonna understand how actually important you are to our family.

Borderline creepy. Yeah, I kind of feel a little bit like a little creepy about it.

No, we you're the most played person in our house. You are there is there are few rooms that I'm in. One thing that's true about Miss Katie Gavin is that put a group of old lesbians in a room

and they're going to [ __ ] about the next generation for six hours until somebody says Katie Gavin.

Yeah, that's true. And then all the old lesbians are going to go, "Yes, respect, respect."

That is the only thing I care about. I think you know this like for me it's like the elders know everything. And by the way, we have to we have to actually be defining our terms here though because I feel like a lot of your what you're talking about is old lesbians are just the same age as the lesbians that I hang out with. So I don't know where this is this is an interesting but anybody who is like anybody who is at all older than me. First of all, anyone that is at all younger than me is my child. I feel like you're probably the same way. I'm like, "Yes, you are." I meet a lesbian that's like 3 years younger than me. I'm like, "You'll understand when you've lived life." You know what I mean?

I totally hear that. It's like, yeah, but I It's And it's so freeing to be I feel like there is something in lesbian culture where it's like the older we get, the like like we're seen as like hotter and wiser and more revered. And that's really how I feel about like anybody who has lived a little bit more than me. I'm just like I all I care about is impressing you and being in your good graces. So,

wow, you are doing really well with that. Brett, can you show Katie just like what hap just happened the other day with Emily and Amy and Melissa?

Yeah. Hold on just a second. Oh my god. Wait, were you there? Where were they? I just follow them wherever they are and I ended up in a room with them recording this.

Like I just recently got to know Katie Gavin from Luna. She is a amazing human being. I love her. I just she's a really wonderful human being and she I went to go see her play her solo show in New York and I met her friends and I it was like I was going to say a kid in a candy store but it was more like here I am this person in my age with my experience and trying to use the tools that I have. These young people were so inspiring. First of all they were all non-binary all her friends. One of them was talking about how they flew to Egypt so that they could try to sneak over the border or get food to pass like

on the ground. Complete courage that they wouldn't even call courage. It's just the way that they live their truth.

So, I'm like, "Y'all tell me what to do and I'll do my best." As a middle-aged like whatever circle, that is my bestie right there. That is my bestie. I really love Emily so much. You know, like when you meet somebody and it's just like immediately you don't have to explain anything to each other. You're just like, you're one of my you're one of my people.

Yeah, it was so easy with her. And um yeah, she came and did Closer to Fine at my solo show in New York. It was really wonderful because I feel like um Emily is one of those icons that I think it might be a beginner's mind like has no idea that she's an icon.

You know, no. So, it was really special to have like her in front of a crowd of uh young lesbians and and non-binaries who were just like absolutely losing their [ __ ] Also with Paresa, this is my friend who like definitely is um kind of like the like on the deepest level of activism that I've witnessed in my life, but I've never seen them like they're backstage at a lot of my shows in New York and I've never seen them like fang girl over anybody. And they really Yeah, they really lost their [ __ ] for Emily.

A Emily deserves that. Emily does deserve that. Yeah, Emily deserves the world.

So, I'm just going to tell you a couple little tidbits of how you have affected my life. First of all, I think we first heard Muna when we were living in Florida. Our kids were playing you constantly.

Um, Silk Chiffon became my whole personality and then I had a vision of myself in rollerblades on the strand like you I was like this is my personality and I'm going to manifest this. And so I in the first week that we lived in in California, I got I made Abby go buy me roller skates and I roller skated down the strand and then

I fell so hard that strangers had to stop and ask me if I need an ambulance. Right.

And so that was I was like, "Yeah, life's so fun." Where did you fall? Wait, did you fall on your ass

in my head? And then someone said, "Does she need an ambulance?" And I that was I I had a 10-minute silk fun life. Anyway,

I try Katie. I try. Okay, but this is the thing about roller skates is that like they are so dangerous that my worst my worst falls have been on roller skates. I have some friends that are derby girls.

Yes. And they like, you know, during the pandemic, I really like joined everybody in like just becoming like manically hyperfixated on roller skating. Um, like we What happened?

We needed life to be so fun, Katie. We needed life. Yeah, we really did. But I Okay. Like I have now made a distinction between if I'm if I'm outside, I have to have roller blades because skates

are so sensitive. And I've had I've cracked phones. I've like been in bed for three days with like a swollen knee. Like it's it's a serious game when you're on skates.

Makes me feel better. But you know what we should do? We should go to like an indoor rink and get you back on the skate.

I want to do that cuz like you know any little rock or any little like change in elevation or like a crack. You're going down on roller skates.

But I had the socks, Katie. I had I just I'm sure you look cute as hell. Oh my god. Oh my god. right up until the fall on the ass.

It was a good look. Yeah, totally. I mean, yeah, it's like that's what really draws us in is like it's so it's cuter. It's cuter than the blades but

it is a really extreme sport. It was extreme. Okay. And then the other thing is when we were in um we finally got to talk to each other because we had had a really good friendship. You just didn't know about it yet. And then we were in um

the airport Mexico with at Bry's thing. Oh, yeah. We ran into them at the airport and we're passing them and there was a lot of of us at the gate.

We were going to Girls Just Want a Weekend in Mexico and Muno was performing there.

Yeah. And so this lovely group of people walks by and one of them looks at me and says, "I love you." And I do I know. And I do my like humble sweet face and I'm like, "Thanks." And then I keep walking and Tish, my daughter, we get like 10 steps away and she stops me and she goes and we don't really cuss to each other. She goes, "What the fuck?" She said, "Mom, fix it. Go back. You do you know who that was?" And I was like, "No way." So then we go back. Okay.

Then Katie, I don't know if you remember, but we're at a table in Mexico and you come over and I have to sort of apologize because I've accidentally in a podcast that we were recording with Brandy and Cath in front of a thousand people said, "Muna is my sexuality." And what I meant, wait, wait, wait, pause. Because do you know that I was there? I literally was in the room. I was standing in the back of the room.

Oh, that's great. Like a creep. I mean, I think what's happening is that we are being creeps for each other.

Yes. So, it cancels each other out and we're just like friends. Yeah. That's it. I've decided

because I felt like I was easedropping like I was like I I guess I should I not be here but I'm like but I want to know.

Well based on what she said where Muna is her sexuality I could understand why you might feel like you were eavesdropping in on something that maybe you shouldn't have been hearing because Glennon you have to explain what

what I meant was Amanda I tried I called my sister. I was like I said this but I really need you to explain to you what I meant. What I meant was that there's a lot of different expressions of gender on the stage and like energies in in Muna that I relate to every single one of them. I didn't mean

fine. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, Abby was like she's like and when I said sexuality, what I meant was not sexuality. That was just a word I thought. know what you are saying and I think that's beautiful, but I would take it as more of a compliment if you if it was the other thing.

Yeah. But here's here's actually what I think. Here's what I think, Katie. I think

the way that you all move on the stage and the way that you perform with such [ __ ] freedom,

that wasn't something that for Glennon for many years, straight white person and now high school teacher

and now a queer person. It's like the OGs weren't allowed to express themselves in the way that you all do.

And so there's this um jealousy, this like this like this craving of like and watching you do it, it makes us open up and it makes us feel like, oh, we can maybe express ourselves in that way. And that is I think a form of sexuality. I don't know if it's like pointed in the direction of necessarily you guys. I mean, hopefully not, but

you can't. But do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. And I I remember hearing this this part of this this conversation. I think like you and Brandy were going back and forth about like the feelings that come up when you see um like younger queers have um like a more liberated sense of self and have the ability to like move in public and express their sexuality without as much fear. And I can imagine that that's really complex. I can actually relate a little bit because I do feel like the um like progress of queer representation has been has moved in such an exponential way that like even you know Muna started as a band like publicly in 2014.

So this was like I'm like guys when was marriage equality? Was it 2015? Yeah. Okay.

15. Yeah, it was a nice time while it lasted like 2015 to 2025. So, um I feel like we have seen a big shift even in our time like I remember us having many conversations in the beginning like deciding if we were going to talk about our sexuality. And I also know that this conversation differs a lot between like people who present as more fem and people who present as more mask. I think it was a different type of bravery for Naomi and Joseette. Um and they also had to go on like a different journey of um being comfortable asserting like this is how I want to represent myself and it might not make sense to like stylists that are used to like mass media projects or whatever. Um but like the people who get it like are going to get it. Um, so we've seen that difference, but I also like I totally understand that confusing mix of emotions of like, damn, am I envious of this person or is it is it

like um actually inviting me into like is this a sign that this is a space that I'm safe to move into now?

Um, and like what does that feel like for me? Um, and also it's so there's a like an irony there because it's like we wouldn't be able to express ourselves in that way had it not been for like the ways that those who came before us like showed up and fought and really fought, you know, like gay liberation was was no joke. Like people put their their physical safety on the line so many times so that we can like fake hump each other on stage, you know,

and it was so worth it, Katie. I know. And I'm so grateful for the fight. They fought so you could hump. And it's it's really

so that I might hump. Yes. And I And I will. when when you came up to me at the table and I tried to explain this which I didn't need to and um you said I understand that what you're saying about the sexuality expression or the gender expression um

because you said because you are you are fem dom yes okay now Katie when I am asked to explain who are you in an interview. When I walk down the street and someone and they say, "Who are you?" I say, "I Katie Gin says, "I'm them."

It's so true, you guys. It's what she says now. It's It's my favorite. I like labels. I've never accepted any of them except for that. And the only problem with it is that I don't understand what the hell it means. It just sounds right.

Although, when I said it to my son, Oh, God. He he said, "Please don't say that to me again."

Yeah. He kind of got a little cringy. I think it might mean something else. Can you explain to me what I've been introducing myself as? I hope it's like a secret society of like this is just the energy I get from you. I It's also like like you're my fem sister. Like

I and I think that this is so you know there's so much discourse and like Abby you might know more about this than I do because I think in some ways like I'm not actually as learned about like the fem like culture and history as I should be. But I do recognize myself as being like a part of that lineage. Um but I think that um to me fem dom uh means that I have embraced that um one I'm like I'm super queer.

Um and two I have like a a strong feminine energy that like doesn't take away from my queerness. Like I love to get glammed up. I love to like look hot and like have that be a part of my power, you know. And

I think the dom part it also comes from this history of um in like a fem butch dynamic maybe in a from a time where um people weren't as comfortable like expressing desire like in an open way. Um, I think because like butches are in a position where they're not as like physically safe to move through the world because they're clockable as queer.

Um, I think like fems maybe took on this role of being the ones to like initiate more being like more in control of like I know what's going on here and like I'm gonna make this happen. And I think

um that kind of energy like also applies to other things. Um I think that another way to explain like my my view of fem like being a fem and being kind of like domy is like that there's something about my it's just like separating this idea. It's really basic I guess in the end it's like separating this idea of um like someone who is feminine needs to like take a more um passive role in things like I think I see you as someone who's like you've really taken so much agency in your life like you've really claimed the agency to be like I'm going to create the life that I want for myself and I'm going to create a community like around me that feels so And I want that for all my people too.

Like the kind of like active um role that I've seen you play in your world, I'm like that's a dom. Like you're just you're just doming it.

Put it on my gravestone. It's so true. And I mean Katie, like your just the your the way that your brain is like moving right now. I just appreciate all of that thoughtfulness so much

and I don't think that I've ever thought of because of my my sports background and yes I'm I'm mask and I am very like queer presenting. It's interesting how I've never thought of my safety because of my sport, but I do think that Glennon has this ability to pass as a straight person, which gives her a little bit more

privilege, privilege and safety in certain spaces. Um, and I think that you've noticed that in our in our relationship and marriage over time.

Oh my god. That's why I can be fired up. It's It's like when I'm with a a a friend who's black like and and I can get away with being a different way. Like it's just a level of safety and how you can move in the world.

Yeah. And having to navigate that individually with like every relationship. You know, Naomi and Joe and I have had a lot of conversations about like when I should be like, you know, a bulldog on their behalf and when they really don't want me to get into it with people, you know.

Exactly. I have that conversation all the time. Totally. Like, stop. This is not because you you you'll be safe if you start this fight. I mean, I get some things and I can be with people who are like, "You'll be safe for the next 15 minutes if you start this [ __ ] and I will not

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I'm just fascinated by the whole conversation about like desire and agency too because even when Glennon's talking about watching Muna on stage and being like I don't know what it is but that

and and you're it's like whether it's a freedom that I want or something that I'm attract it's about desire right not even necessarily desire for

them but desire for me like I I I am feeling a pull of that and then to hear you talk even about

all of these things seem like so rooted in an inability to identify your desire and then somehow to either have or not have the agency to make it. So, like even Glennon creating that life that she wants for herself is an active desire and an active agency. And so, I've just I've never really um I don't know what it means when you can't identify the desire or where that comes from. Like a lot of people can't say they will say, "I don't know what I want. I don't even know what I want for dinner." or much less what I want for my life or what I want for my relationship or my sexuality or whatever. Do you have any thoughts about like where what that comes from? The ability to identify like I want that either that person or that life and like what doesn't happen for people who can't do that.

Totally. I mean that's that's really huge. I think thanks thanks for pulling that out of um what we're dancing around. I think for me um I am so like touched by the grace of God that I was able to get to the point where um like Muna as a project was started because when I look back like I was not a person who could identify what I want or a person who was in touch with my like gut instinct at all. And I think in a lot of ways um like having Muna made me accountable. Um it's a big part of like what put me on my recovery journey. And like I I want to like get into all that stuff, but I also am curious about how

I mean maybe this is a conversation for like another time, but it I'm still at the beginning of figuring out how to talk about recovery in like a public public way

um and like a way that feels good. So I guess I'm just like asking higher power to help me.

I mean for me the recovery thing is is sort of like everything else. It's like the desire conversation you're having because

when you think about how do you find out what you want? I don't know how most people do that. I truly am a person who

has to learn the hard way. That's how my life's always been and will continue to be. For me, identifying desire is a lot like um you know that story of whoever it was, some famous sculptor who said that all they do is they take a rock or and then they cut out what isn't the sculpture. That the sculpture is already in the rock.

All they're doing is chiseling away what's not the sculpture and then the sculpture. That's what desire is for me. I have to constantly try things and go not that, not that, not that. I know the not that. What I am good at is not suffering through the not that for too long.

Okay. I was gonna say, did you used to feel like guilty about when it was not that? Like

and struggle with I I think I'm still in that part a little bit where it's like if something isn't working, I feel like it's cuz I I'm doing something wrong

and I just have to like figure out how to make it work. But I keep hearing this message over and over again that like being able to identify not that quickly and like accepting it is huge.

Yeah. I think that one of the hard things about for cuz I mean I've been in recovery for almost 10 years now and you 22. Um, one of the hardest parts about recovery for me at the beginning was it made like at first you you were like I can't trust myself because myself got me into this mess,

right? story. And so the not that part of this conversation is like holding like loosely to the not that of whatever choices you're making or you know the sculpture like it's like letting go of those parts that you just that aren't serving you that haven't worked. And I don't know I just I I remember very vividly being like oh I can't trust myself. I have to like turn myself over to a higher power or just like really like white knuckle it at first. But eventually, I mean, I drank 15 cups of coffee every single day because that was my not that attitude.

You had to do whatever you had to do. And one person said to me long ago, whatever you have to do, just do it in order to not do that. in order to not drink alcohol.

The sculpture at the center that you're recovering in recovery like whatever recovery is recovering an original plan.

Yeah. Uncovering. Yeah. So it kind I guess for me I get into situation every hour, every day, every situation and I feel

you all get into a lot of situ like you're you have a high amount of situations in your life.

Yes. High stakes low clarity. Okay. And and I feel a nope. And I also feel Yes. Like I I feel oh this is warm. This feels right. This feels like an opening this person, this situation.

Um and then there's a not that and then I spend a lot of time and suffering telling myself that it's just me that can't handle that thing and other people can handle that thing and so I should just

more familiar ways. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. You know what's coming up for me with that situation is um co-writing songs. I and this has shifted for me but when we first got signed um our label was encouraging us to do co-writes and I struggled with it so much and every like every possible sign in my body that like it wasn't the right thing for me at that time was happen like I would become so exhausted I was getting sick like all of these things that feel really on the nose. Um, but I felt so bad about it. I was like, what's wrong with me that I can't show up and create in the way that these people want me to and the way that seemingly all these other people can? Um, and I think what was going on is like I I have a hard time I wonder how this is with you, Glennon, with like writing. I can't there's a lot of things that make it impossible for me to like actually think clearly. Um,

and I can't like always actually think when I'm in a room with another person. It's quite hard.

We talk about this all the time. Abby, like you are an individual sport athlete.

Totally. like a but I I love people but I but art to me I I'm amazed when people can do it collectively. I'm amazed by Muna. I'm amazed that you are a person. I'm obsessed with the idea of how do we find community and work and life where we can be held and free

like held and free held and free. And it feels like you're doing that like you have found a way to be so respectful and gorgeous with your art with Muna and then also carve out I mean what a relief like the album is our family's heart.

Yeah. Your solo album. Holy moly. I will It is every single theme of my life that is in my heart and mind is one of those songs.

It is what a relief. It was such a [ __ ] relief. That really means the world and it makes me feel like I'm I'm doing something right. And that was its own thing of like I started getting a feeling of like I these songs like are special to me. like I know they're not right for Muna, but they mean something to me. And deciding like this is what I want. It might not make sense to other people. It might not actually be a smart um business decision because now it's been like four years and Muna hasn't put out a new album, but I'm like this is what I had to do. and like trusting that that's the step you have to take like to lead you to wherever you're going to be next, you know? And like it really did have a pretty like divine purpose in my life in terms of like reconnecting me to um why I fell in love with music and songwriting and

um and reconnecting me to this like really like experimental part of myself. We often talk about Muna as um a marriage because we we're like we're contractually like bound to each other and we like create the like and we make these things together. And I think y'all maybe know this like Naomi and I dated in college. Naomi was like my first queer relationship and

um and we broke up like a month after we got signed and then we went to couples therapy after we broke up. And and the only way that we could

cuz that's when you really have to make it work. Make it work. And that and when the only way we could explain it to the therapist, we were like, "We're a divorced couple that has a child."

Yes. You're co-arenting. Yeah. We're co-arenting. Um, and I think like a lesson that I've learned in Muna is like we all have to like ri risk um, you know, we have to take the risk of like leaving and growing individually and pursuing the thing that feels important and right for us and like changing

um, so that the relationship can stay alive. The one thing that hasn't changed is that like Naomi and Joe are like my two favorite musicians and creators and like I respect their vision and opinion so much. I think that's what makes a band is like

like respecting somebody's vision and opinion and also um not having like a toxic environment where you can't express your opinion, you know. Um

but yeah, I think that that was like um that was that was a huge win for me in terms of like having a desire that I was afraid of and like not and then not letting that stop me.

Was it scary to tell them that you needed to go off on your own? I mean, I I'm thinking of other musicians that we know that have done this. How was that for you guys? How were those conversations? I'm just thinking of every single person who's in a family or in a friendship or in every who are in these beautiful um tiny communities but also feel the yearning for individuality

but are scared to do that because they're scared of hurting feelings. Like how does that process go?

Mhm. It was really like low and slow when we we were working on our third album. Um, and I already had like most of these songs together. And the first thing I asked was like, can I take a week and go into the studio like with a group of people and just record these songs? Like I as like kind of this experimental project. Like

I didn't really know what I was going to I was thinking like I'll just put it up on Band Camp or something. Like

I kind of have this like um Okay, Katie. Okay. No, I I have this like like pathological attachment to like starting over. I think it maybe has to do with like like under earning type of vibe where it's like I want to I I want to like undervalue things so that I don't so that it's less vulnerable.

Totally. We can get into that. Oh, I get that, Katie. Oh, that's Yep. That's I'm not It's like vibes of like listen, I'm not even trying. I'm just like,

I'm not even crying. No, I just I'm like I just spent like three days on it and like so there's no way it could even be good, you know?

Under promise overd deliver. Oh, that was surprising. Look how well it did because our expectations were none. Yeah,

exactly. So, I think like I It's funny actually like I guess maybe I didn't really know um that it was going to be something that like snowballed and I didn't I wasn't necessarily being honest with myself about how much I cared about it. Oh.

Um, but I like recorded this this batch of songs again. We were working on the third album and I showed it to Phoebe who had just signed us um signed Muna and um she was like, "These are good. I want to put this out like as a solo record for you, but I want you to go back in the studio with my producer Tony Berg and like work on the like work on it. Like spend more than three days, Katie. It's worth it.

Yeah. And um and I I think it was a few like I felt a few different things because first of all like the the early version I did w was with my friends and it there really is something really special about like those versions of those songs.

I should send them to y'all. It's like there's something really there's something really special about it just being like like a group of people like throwing something together. Um, and like everyone who worked on the first version of the project I'm like so grateful to. Um, but then I had to contend with like, okay,

am I It was a different conversation then. It was like, "Okay, I I think I actually want to put this out on a label and like I want to work on it um

like as an album that I'm going to put out um in a real way like with an album campaign and everything."

So, that became a different conversation and we decided that I would wait until the Moon album came out. Um, and you know, I I do have to say that like I think if it had been one of them that had done it, I think I would have had a harder time than

like they are such um like understanding and supportive friends and they were like pretty much immediately able to like put their egos aside and um let me do what I had to do. So, and I can't say I would have been able to do the same thing. I think I would have um maybe required some band therapy sessions.

Yeah. I mean, it's all co-parenting is all good until the other parent decides to pursue a new partner. Like, that's

things get freaking complicated that. Yeah, definitely. So beautiful. Can we show you?

Okay, so we did this tour. Um, we actually did it for all the the network of immigration orgs in the country. Um, and we started every every single night with our daughter singing the baton.

Um, okay. So, can we just It's just a minute. I just want you to watch a short clip.

This song is on repeat in our house all the time. Um, and it means a lot to my family. It's kind of about like healing and generational trauma. Just some light stuff to close out the evening.

Um, so this is The Vuitton. It's by Katie Gavin. Oh, if I had a daughter, I know what I would tell her. know what I would tell her when she's old enough to know. I would tell my daughter she must be her own mother. I can only take her as far as I can go. And on the very same day, she kind of relay and I'd say, "You better run. This thing has been going for many generations." But there is so much healing that still needs to be done. But today I have no daughter. I only have a mother. And I know that my mother taught me everything she knows. And I don't want to leave her, but she's drawing nearer. She's coming around the corner. I can hear go on girl

times and you'll understand it will be passed again. It will be passed again. Oh Tishy man. She can really He can really do it.

She can really do it. He can really do it. Are you crying, Katie? Oh, good. Maybe.

Oh my gosh. So was Glennon. And like I was jamming last night to that song cuz we just finalized that clip and I just I cannot tell you there was there has been a point that I was playing it so often that my family's like, "Okay, maybe there should be a different

So then we played Inconsolable." Yeah, maybe there should be a different song. No, it's really um kind of diabolical to make me watch a clip of Tish performing it like for like with you there. Like I think that's really too much. I think

and then there was a night that my mom No. Yeah. was in the audience. So Tish is singing to my mom. We're there. She's there. And then and then we all poofed into

Yeah. No, we're doing violence to people. Um, agreed. I had a few shows where like I had different family members when I did the Hollywood Forever uh cemetery show or it wasn't at the cemetery. It was at Masonic Lodge, but my mom sang it and she learned the harmony and it was

no the cutest thing. And also my um my older sister is pregnant and so she was there like the last time I think it was like Red Rocks which was one of the last shows on the Lucy Dus tour that I did and like singing to my pregnant sister. It's like it's really crazy. It's really crazy when you're when you're actually like uh in the presence of multiple generations of women. It just makes me be like, I love my mom.

Katie, how did that start? Like I I' have post I have retroactive stress that you there's a that there's a realm in which you didn't follow your desire and you got too scared to do it and then you didn't make this song and then and I just want everybody this is not just about Katie. This is about the little kernel in your body that thinks that you have a desire to put something that's inside your body outside your body and should you be brave enough to do it and just look like that

and some somehow that's selfish because like I if you thought this doing individual was selfish like you should know that my I wouldn't understand my life. So, it's so true.

So, what started that kernel and also like the layers of it where the the Irish music and like the choice of the Irish sound being part of like the cultural baton of your life and

just just say anything about that song. Well, first of all, I I don't want to forget that I am really curious about um if you have any experiences with with writing and and creating where like after your qu this question just kind of made me think about times where I've written something and then I get scared about alternate universes where I like lived the day a different way and like that the thing didn't get created. I wonder if that happens to you.

Oh, all the time. And then I have a million things that I've written that I don't put out because I'm already scared of the alternate reality of me putting that out. And what would happen? What will happen to that world? Oh, it Yeah, absolutely. But I think that the beginning of the baton came with like that metaphor of a relay race. I was in Nashville um again like on a journey of trying to co-write and this was one of the first times that I actually had a successful coowwriting session. Um uh I think like people in Nashville are a little slower and calmer and it like that was helping me. But I was also like just meeting a lot of like cool

young women and my friend Maddie Diaz had like had like a full moon ceremony. So, I was just like I was just vibing.

And um I remember driving and this the metaphor of the relay race like kind of crystallized for me. And I remember feeling like um I think there I think I had I had heard somebody say at one point that like you have to find the metaphors for you that you can use as like ores. like you have to find the metaphors that are helpful, you know, like that will move you forward on your journey. And

you know, there's so many ways to talk about um like where we fall short in terms of like loving each other. Um, and I think this image of like maybe we're not actually like falling short generationally, but we're like fulfilling the part that was like meant for us to fulfill. And and also we're going as far as we can, you know, like

that's just like we're doing all we can do is like what what was meant for us to do and and seeing that so clearly, you know, I was also I think like in my late 20s, like I was maybe 29 when I wrote this song. So, I think getting to the place of like um really understanding, not really understanding. Let's be honest. I'm not a mom.

You also won't really understand if you're ever able the songwriting is so careful though. It's so specific and beautiful like

that we talk about the line of I know that my mother taught me everything she knows.

That is not that is a way of saying what a gift we don't we also we there is so much focus on what they didn't do and what the bad stuff is and what they couldn't get their [ __ ] together to clear out and what they and I live in that world often

but that line is so wise and generous and true. Um, like one of the times the kids said, "My mom is always being the best mom she can be." And I was like, "That's sweet." Like she didn't say she's the best mom.

Well, yeah. There is a little bit of it. Like when I when I was going to show my mom, I was kind of like, I wonder if she's going to hate this song. Like

Oh, interesting. Because I think it takes like um I mean like there's so much uh emotion in it. like there's a there's definitely a sadness there. It's like we want to be um like more than we are for each other,

you know, like there's always going to be that straining. Um, but I think, you know, I'm really lucky to have a mom with whom I've had a lot of conversations about like um like I remember at one point like we'll see if she's cool with me sharing the story, but like I remember when when I was in recovery, I was probably being um like a snob about it and I was like I actually figured out that there's like actually a way to live that like we should be doing.

Oh god, Katie. Newly sober and crossfits and vegans. No, newly sober. Evangelical.

No, it's really bad. Yeah. And I think she was like, "You think you're like so much better than me and it's annoying." And um

and I think I we had some conversation that kind of was like, "You did the same thing to your mom when you were my age. Like my mom is really fiercely independent and after college she like went to the Philippines and like uh did work that her mom didn't want her to do cuz she was like that's like not safe. And my mom was just like this is what I'm going to do. This is what's right for me. And I'm like I'm I'm separating myself from you right now but it's because I am the same as you. You know what I mean? Like I'm like,

"Yes, it's because I'm independent like you." You know, Katie, every time my kids walk around with their little notebooks and I know they're writing [ __ ] about me,

I'm like, I want you to know that I gave you the match that you're using to light me up.

Yeah. And like, how funny is that? Great irony. Great irony. It is. But yeah, I think it it was also definitely from a point of like I'm I'm sure y'all went through this in recovery and doing the steps of like just seeing things like in a like zooming out and being like, oh, like my grandma was dealing with a lot, you know,

and seeing how that affects like it's not just like my mom is also a daughter. Yes.

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How is your recovery? What are where are you in it? And what are you what are you thinking about it?

What am I recovering from? Or or I don't even know. Just what do you want to talk about when it comes to recovery? I think I'm first of all I think I'm like ready to begin again in a different area which al which

life has a way of showing you like yeah the blind spots. Um damn it recovery is a slippery slope. Totally. Totally. But I also feel like um actually taking it back to this uh Amanda your question about like um getting in touch with our desire in in I came into the rooms when I was 24 and like getting sober like that first year. I was really um pretty low functioning. I had so so much anxiety that I couldn't drive a car, so I sold my car. Um, I moved into a house with my best childhood friend who actually is obsessed with this podcast. So, um, if you're listening, Becca,

Becca, we love you, Becca. Becca, we love you. She's going to die. Um, and I moved into a house with her because I kind of needed um like not necessarily supervision, but I needed like co-regulation and accountability.

Mhm. And I my life was really small and I remember like feeling really um like the the progress was on like such a small level. I felt like my life had like shrunk down to a little nucleus, right? Um, and I think at that time I was like, "This takes so long. It takes too long." Um, and I'm not seeing like the the results that I want. I was really impatient um with like what was possible. Yeah.

And I think uh now it's like so I've so now it's like been eight years and I think I overestimated like what would change in my life in like the first year of getting sober and I really underestimated like what can change in eight years. Like

I think that it's it feels really crazy to witness like in my life the actual laws of like the abundance of nature, man. And it's like if you plant a seed and you can wait, like it's crazy what can happen, you know?

Yes. Um and you know, I'm sure you all understand this. It's like there's things that really change and there's things that really don't change. Like one of my um biggest addictions is like people and like if there's shiny people then I can like get lost in fantasy and kind of like my life again like internally becomes really small just around like one person and so that's a little bit scary because sometimes I am just walking around and going about my life not trying to get high you know

and all of a sudden it it will happen to me, you know. Um, did you just say just stop for a second that I've never heard addiction described that way before, but

it's a really important way of when your internal life gets very small around something else. Is that what you said?

Is it like you fill up with that thing as opposed to yourself suddenly? Yeah. My sponsor calls it the treadmill in the cosmos. Like it's like we have this like entire universe around us of things that can make us feel like a huge array of feelings and we put ourselves on a treadmill and the numbers on the treadmill tell us if we're good or bad. You know, it's like or like a text back is going to tell you if you're good or bad. Yeah.

It's like I need to make things like small and binary, you know? Mhm. Yeah, I do know. I do know. Mine's an actual treadmill, but that's besides the point.

I'm I'm actually wondering if mine might be an actual treadmill as well. my my my partner pointed out to me recently like, you know, there's a lot of different things going on with like different people in my world that I'm close to and like I have a big impulse to like I'm I can be really codependent and like want to step in and save people. And um my part partner pointed out, sorry, someone's throwing something in a dumpster. My part my partner pointed out that I've been like technically working out twice a day like most days of the week because I'm like going to the gym and then I'm taking dance classes and I was telling myself like oh it's because like I'm just prepping for this next album cycle and like you know I can like justify things in an interesting way but then I was just like oh

I know that L so Oh yeah. But how beautiful is it when you have like people in you like in your life who can like point gently?

She's a gentle pointer. She really is. She does it every day. Do you think that there's something inside of us that when we chip away everything knows what we want, what to do, how to recover, how to be in the cosmos. I'm asking you about baby lizards right now.

Okay. Totally. Wait, tell tell people what baby what because I don't think people are baby lizards. It's it's a there's a line in Inconsolable, a song on Katie Gavin's so solo album. It's called But I've seen baby lizards running in the river when they open their eyes, even though no one taught them how or why.

And the context is I might have just turned this into our own story. So if this context is excellent, this will be fun. But it's like when it the context of this idea that Katie's suggesting that we have something in us that knows how to find our way home and back to each other just like lizards. No one teaches them, but they know how to get to the river to get what they need to survive. The context is a relationship where they are shutting down to each other because they feel like internally they're too much of a mess to show themselves to each other. So there's a line in it that says you run into the house trying to be your own savior.

Like that's all I do. So but the idea is that if we just keep feeling our way through this, if the two of us in this relationship just keep returning to the part of ourselves like baby lizards that know instinctively how to move next, we out of our heads and into our bodies, we can find our way back to each other. That's my understanding of this song. And also, these two people may have been from families who didn't like hug or love or find their way to each other so much, so they didn't learn it.

Yeah. I think we're all Irish here, Katie, just so you know. Wait, are you really?

Oh, Irish at the day. So cute. Yes. Where in Ireland do you know where your family's from?

My sister knows all of this. Where Amanda? Yeah, we're mostly like Kimara Gway area.

Huge Gway girls. Yeah. Well, I think what I'm gathering is that um you understand this song way better than I do. I'm like, "Oh, that's so cool that that's what this song is about." Um yeah. So, I'm like, "Can you just tell me how to baby lizard?" I think it it's also helpful to like in my life um one of the biggest like signs of progress that I will still celebrate like a little kid is um let's say I'm having a like a spiky moment with my partner where like I'm feeling

spiky upset spiky I'm going to use that we say chippy that you're getting. Yeah, spiky. Sometimes I have days that are crunchy where I'm just like, why is it so crunchy today? Um uh but I'm like, you know, but I'm upset. A huge win for me these days is actually being able to trace back like, oh, they said this thing and it was a little thing, but like that made me feel like they're not on my side

or that made me feel like they don't listen to me or, you know, and like to actually be able to like find a thread in me and like

and usually I I don't I I in the past I ignore those threads because again like I feel like it's wrong of me to like have these feelings or like it's just something I should deal with on my own or whatever. like but acknowledging um this little part of me that like needs like I'm starting to understand that partnerships is really the space where we can ideally like feel safe to be like the littlest versions of ourselves, you know? Um, and I'm so lucky to have like to have a partner now where they can really meet that version of me and like treat her tenderly and they're like proud of me and will high-five me, you know, if I like realize, oh, this is like this is what hurt my feelings, you know? And a lot of times I'm doing it I have to do it in a voice like

I do too. I do a baby voice and it annoys my baby voice. It annoys me because that's like a thing I'm not trying to be.

No, but like if that's what gets it out of your mouth. Yes. Then honey, that's what it's got to be.

This is like 100% what I'm working on in therapy right now, which is this like 90% of my relationship happens in my head.

Yeah. Because when something happens, I'm constantly doing the ne negotiation of like, well, this visceral reaction is incommensurate with this particular thing, right? And so this is therefore unreasonable and something I need to mediate in myself before I present it because that's just crazy town, right? But this my therapist keeps trying to tell me the same thing that like if a if an emotion happens like first of all this is wild but an actual emotion takes maximum of 90 seconds to flow through you like if you will actually sit through the cycle of an emotion it's 90 seconds which means when it's taking you for example 72 hours that is not actually a cycle that is like you're spinning and the reason you're spinning is because

like that thing when you're saying like that hit me in that way that doesn't seem like responsive to what actually happened because it is hitting the baby lizard like that thing is an old thing of yours. So you're you're right that it isn't commensurate with the situation and it's so real and it's going to continue to be real

until you can bring it out and be like this is that little thing. Yeah. So it's like that's necessary

to avoid it continuing to happen which is just wild to me. Yeah, I always thought this relationship is for this relationship, not like all of my stuff

is here and this relationship is a tool to get to all of that stuff. Yeah. Oh god, that's so true. We call it the softest self.

You said the littlest self and we call it the softest self, like the person that you feel safe with being your softest self. And it would make sense when the softest self feels threatened that you would put up a spiky self,

right? It's like when I find myself spiky, it's because I have just felt like somebody was going to see the softest self.

But sometimes I like I don't even realize that that's what I'm doing. Um, and so being able to Yeah. There's something interesting in this conversation about like time. Um, and like Amanda, what you're saying about like an emotion like flowing through us, like just like the idea that um when we get these signals like from our body, whether it's um like something hit the baby lizard or like something is like not right for us, it's not something that we want, you know? It's like um working on like the ability to just be listening to

like that. And there's something for me about the more I like clear away shame, the um the like faster and um freer I am to express like this is the message I just got

and like I don't it doesn't have to be like good or bad or right or wrong but like this is the message I just got.

Um yeah, really interesting. God, which is full circle to desire. Right? Because like if you are getting a message and then you have shame on top of that message like shame is the ultimate desire killer. Like you're not going able to be

free. Totally in that way. That that made me I immediately just went to being gay. I'm like shame is ultimate desire killer. I'm like I don't I'm like it didn't fully work for me. Your will is strong, Katie.

I'm like, get out. The force is strong. Be kind of hot if you're like messed up about it.

Yeah. If you're a whole thing there, there's a whole thing. There's a whole another conversation.

That's a whole different thing. Yeah. Oh my god. What do you When you think about

your baton, like what are you desperately committed to carrying on from your lineage and what are you thinking about letting go? M um in my lineage again like the the independence of spirit of like the women in my family I think is so beautiful. Um, uh, elsewhere in my ancestry, like my my dad has an incredibly like tender heart

and he's a lawyer, but he really has like the heart of a poet. Um, and I really honor that like uh in him like he he's a really amazing listener and he's the person that I like know I can um he's he's someone I know I can go to like if I need like kind of like a non-judgmental, you know, safe space. And I think I I really hope to like carry that on. I think there's so much interesting stuff. So my kind of like political home in LA is a a organization called Resource Generation. And um I feel like this could be like, you know, I'll try not to get into a whole different world here, but

No, please do. We want We're going to ask you anyway about what you wanted to Please do. Okay. Um well, resource generation is um a a group for people that have um like some kind of inherited wealth who are interested in like redistribution. Um, and it has been such a fascinating like process and home for political education to think about. Um, I was raised in the northshore of Chicago, which is like a very um, white wealthy bubble. And I really do believe that um there is like a very strong uh like white supremacist culture

um that has certain uh characteristics um that I really um like took in when I was younger. Um there's certain things like being like averse to conflict uh like privileging um like quantitative signs of success over like a physical feeling in your body you know like um and I think also I still struggle with like you know growing up in a in a bubble like that there's a really um like narrow no um idea of success and um

and like valuable like people. Yeah. Um, and I think I h had to do a lot of like unlearning to to understand like it's okay if that's not what success looks like for me and that's not the kind of like life that I want to live and that doesn't mean that I'm not grateful for everything that my parents have like given me. Um,

but yeah, I think that there's a lot of like um I am really interested in like privileging um like having a rich community over having like endless resources so that I don't need community,

you know. So yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about. That's exactly if you could it it's we have our this is the conversations that we're having at our dinner tables constantly

and I I just know that these this is the answer. Mhm. I just know that this is the answer because I was telling Abby recently it's like we're just railing against, you know, hoarding basically hoarding and greed and more and the western idea of just like conquering and more and just never sitting never stopping everything being a conquest and it's like colonialism even in your life and your your

Yes. Right. Yeah. It's like I don't know if you've read um the Naomi Klein's doppelganger.

Yes. So good. So good. She's amazing. She's amazing. She really is. She's She's kind of the one. Um,

but I feel like she connected a dot for me with like this hoarding and this kind of like endless um like defensiveness and like um uh kind and the other side of that being like that there is a there's an existence of this like shadow land where like the resources that we're hoarding are not present in that place because were hoarding them. And there like this kind of mindset globally of like your either just this replication of kind of the dynamic of like Israel and Palestine.

That's all it is. That's why no one wants us to talk about that because it's just a microcosm of the way we've agreed to run the entire planet. And if we start to actually see that,

we will see all of it. Yeah. Clearly. and that it's like connected to there's a there's a there's a violence in the mentality of like I need to uh have as much as I can possibly have.

Um maybe you're not like directly uh starving people or killing people. Maybe you are. Some people are. Um but yeah, I think that um I think a lot of us and I think there's something that is like um really it's been tender to talk about it with my family because um like I think it's scary when you first are learning if you if you weren't like uh if you didn't grow up in community in like an intimate way of like relying on each other deeply. It's a it's hard to learn.

Yeah. Um that you you don't need to always have more than enough like if you can ask other people for help, you know. Yeah.

But it's like who wants to do that? We haven't learned to depend on each other because the individualism has taught us you get what you you get what you need and you care for yourself by your own resources. And that has but it's also very you know when I was talking to Abby about how I'm railing against that this greed and this hoarding. I think what we're being called to by your generation is to not only call that monster out like it's outside of us but look at that monster inside of us. Because while I'm railing at people for being greedy and hurting each other, I am

just beginning to look at my own hoarding and my own individualism. And I also have seen and and we're having these conversations about generational wealth because of this because of what you're identifying.

So interesting. But it also Katie I'm seeing it feels like the concept of enough we just haven't been taught to care about or see any end to it like there's any enoughness. But what is really clear now is that the people who can't figure out what enough is even who have a lot are refusing to say enough

to what's going on in the world. There's a direct correlation between this idea that even our rich friends

Mhm. are so scared to speak out because why? Because you're going to lose your next opportunity. But you already have like

right the you have enough so you can put yourself on the line, right? But if you don't know what enough is, you are not free. Mhm.

I I was I literally was almost about to break into Tracy Chapman. Oh, that's Yes.

Sorry. But I feel like it's sort of like addiction or sort of Oh, yeah. like religion or sort of like this is this is a this is not just like a a onederee turn north. This is a whole

basis on which we have built lives and nations and empires and generations. And we are taught like this is how you keep the baby lizard safe,

right? The baby lizard doesn't have any allies or friends. The baby lizard stays safe this way. And so it's a and that's really hard to replace when you have no experience or evidence but just testimony that the other way will work. Like when people are in community and feel the safety of a community,

they believe it. They know it. They know it's far more secure than madeup paper. Yeah. I mean, hopefully now this is just a not this moment,

right? Right. Right. Just not this. I know. But it's it's it really has been super confounding like to see people not be able to um like express outrage and but also in my in my life I think a lot of you know most of my friends that have platforms like are using their platforms and I think that it's possible that I might live in a in a bubble where um people are really speaking speaking out um and saying free Palestine in a way that maybe you y'all are having a different experience in your community.

We are having a different experience. That's really hard. Um I have a friend who like was raised Zionist and has gone through a really amazing transformation, but it's also been painful of course. Um,

and I think um, like I've I've looked to her a lot. This is Hannah Einbinder. I've I've looked to her a lot in terms of like um talking to people because I know like she has a lot of um conversations with people who don't agree with the way that she's speaking out and um she's managed to maintain like really this stance of like I will walk with you. I will send you these books. Like I will be here for you. um if you like come with me on this journey and like step across the threshold. I know it's scary. I know it's hard. Um I haven't had like as much experience with um yeah, people that have been people that aren't speaking out. I guess maybe that's partially because it's like Muna, you know, we like Naomi and I part part of the reason we were so close was because we were doing like college activism, you know, and like we've just always

that's been our um community. But I will say that like I it I've been on my own journey of like uh I think a a big thing for me is using my phone like not just as a platform but as a way to like I there's like four or five families that I speak to on a semi-regular basis and just like connecting on a human to human level and being like What's up? What's going on today? Where are you?

Um, you're talking about Palestinian families. Palestinian families. And it's not for me like I have had to um orient my life and my activism in a way that I know it's it's not like this is easy. It's not like this is easy to like look at in a sustainable way. Um, and I found that for me, having a few people that are going to message me and say like, "How are you doing, Katie?" Like, "This is what's going on with me today." Like, that keeps my eyes um like on this genocide in a way that's sustainable. And also like I h there's other things for me like going to direct actions. I don't do it necessarily because it's like because I think it's the most effective way to organize, but I do it because I'm the kind of like ADHD person where I get such a a buzz from being in the streets with other people

who like believe the same thing that I do that that actually keeps me going. I I'm a part of resource generation because then I'm accountable to like be with people every other Monday who like are like amazing activists who push me, you know, like I have to set up my life in ways that um make me less likely to like slip away from my values, you know? Yeah, I do.

So good. It's like recovery. It's like recovery. So good. It's another baton situation. We'll just We need to let you go. You have so many things to do. We're going to stop. But

it does feel all tied to that. Like you're you're looking so hard at your little family and what you want to bring and take. And then you're looking so hard at your wider family and what the generation has told you about what how to live and taking the baton and being like, I've got this. I'll take a little bit and reimagine my own way.

Yeah, it's beautiful. Katie, you are so special and we adore you like deeply and we believe in you and everyone we love believes in you

and we all see you and just you know when you need anything just just just text I'm just dying to hang out.

Let's hang out. I'm frankly dying to hang out. I'm so I'm so grateful. I can't believe you had me on this podcast.

Are you kidding me? This has been my favorite podcast we've ever done. I know. I can't believe it. I'm I'm so so grateful. Thank you for everything that y'all do. Thank you for being like such leaders. Thank you, Glennon, for being the fem dom that we need in the world.

I might curl my hair. Be the fem don you need in the world. Curl my hair, but I will [ __ ] you up. That's our tagline. And also you guys, uh, Pod Squad, we're going to put all of you're going to This is I know that this album is going to be everyone's just constant. So, we'll put the album link and all the things people do.

What a relief. Go get it, Katie. We love you, Katie. Go, go, go, go. Love you. We can do hard things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human. Forever dog is our production partner and you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and at we can do hard things show on Tik Tok.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want"?

Glennon Doyle (Host), Abby Wambach (Host), Katie Gavin (Guest), Amanda Doyle (Guest).

What is "Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want" about?

Katie Gavin discusses the journey of self-discovery, emphasizing the importance of uncovering and expressing one's desires while honoring the past and fostering intergenerational healing. Through her music and personal experiences, she explores topics such as recovery, intimacy, and creating a more hopeful and habitable future for generations to come.

What is mentioned in this We Can Do Hard Things episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Katie Gavin, What a Relief, Abby Wambach, Muna, Resource Generation, Peloton. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want"?

The episode runs 1 h 32 min; the transcript is about 14,365 words in 262 timestamped sections.

More from We Can Do Hard Things

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 15, 2026.