Transcript

Natasha Rothwell: The Third Doyle Sister?!

From We Can Do Hard Things · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 16 min · 11,729 words · 209 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Natasha Rothwell: The Third Doyle Sister?!", an episode of We Can Do Hard Things published September 25, 2025 (1 h 16 min, about 11,729 words). It mentions 8 people, works and ideas, including Natasha Rothell, How to Die Alone, White Lotus, Insecure, Big Hattie Productions.

What this episode is about

Natasha Rothwell, a talented actress and creator known for her roles in "How to Die Alone," "The White Lotus," and "Insecure," engages in a transformative conversation about survival and thriving in challenging times. As the founder of Big Hattie Productions, she emphasizes her commitment to elevating marginalized voices through art, showcasing her unique blend of charm and subversive creativity.

Key takeaways

  • Natasha Rothell proves that vulnerability is the ultimate strength—it's what keeps us alive and thriving.
  • As Rothell embraces her introversion, she reminds us: recharge with solitude to conquer the social energy debt.
  • Her refusal to conform to the 'people pleaser' narrative is a rallying cry for those seeking authentic connection.
  • In a world obsessed with extroversion, Rothell's love for quiet moments is a refreshing rebellion.
  • Creating content for marginalized voices, Rothell shows that art can be both beautiful and subversively powerful.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: How to Die Alone, Natasha Rothell, Insecure, White Lotus
  2. – 30:00: Zip Recruiter, How to Die Alone, No CD
  3. – 40:00: Natasha Rothell
  4. – 1:10:00: Olivia Dean
  5. – 1:15:37: Olivia Dean

Notable quotes from "Natasha Rothwell: The Third Doyle Sister?!"

  • Which she conceived and came up with by herself and stars in. she that is currently streaming. She's also recently earned her second Emmy nomination for her role as Belinda Lindsay, the White Lotus.
    about White Lotus · at
  • I just have to tell you, we have so deeply been looking forward to this time with you because you for me, whether it was Insecure or White Lotus or How to Die Alone, it just you are someone when.
    about Natasha Rothell · at
  • Alone writer room, you guys were like yeah brought me into every morning and I tell everyone and I have a little I do I vision board because I'm I'm that girl and I have a we can do hard things little cut out on my vision board.
    about How to Die Alone · at
  • Which is why I want to tell you about No CD. No CD is the world's leading provider of specialized OCD treatment with licensed therapist trained in exposure and response prevention or ERP therapy. The most effective treatment.
    about No CD · at
  • Experience, and mindsets? And that's where our sponsor, Zip Recruiter, comes in. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.comwe.
    about Zip Recruiter · at
  • Know they're like this is too much and for me that song, there's this amazing London artist, Olivia Dean, and she has this song, Man I Need, and it's like a bppy kind of like fun song that it is just it just lights me.
    about Olivia Dean · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Natasha Rothell — Person · Main guest · 3 mentions · first at
    Primary interview subject; discussed her acting/writing work, neurodivergence (ADHD), faith, rest, and art as resistance, while being introduced as creator/star of a Hulu series and as an Emmy-nominated actor.
  • Olivia Dean — Person · Referenced artist (music recommendation) · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as a source of joy and “dance”/uplift; Natasha cites Olivia Dean’s song as a repeat-listen that helps her cope and feel hopeful.

Companies & orgs

  • Big Hattie Productions — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    Natasha Rothell's production company used to create and produce art championing marginalized voices.
    She is also known for her work on HBO's Insecure and she has her own production company Big Hattie Productions which she uses to create and produce all kinds of beautiful art…

Products & tech

  • How to Die Alone — Product · Secondary_owned · 4 mentions · first at
    Natasha Rothell's critically acclaimed Hulu series, which she created, executive produced, and stars in.
  • Zip Recruiter — Product · Explicit_sponsor · 3 mentions · first at
    Hiring platform mentioned during the ad segment.
  • No CD — Product · Explicit_sponsor · 1 mention · first at
    Specialized OCD treatment provider mentioned during the ad segment.

Media & podcasts

  • White Lotus — Media · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at
    TV series for which Natasha Rothell earned her second Emmy nomination.
  • Insecure — Media · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at
    HBO series known for Natasha Rothell's work.
    I just have to tell you, we have so deeply been looking forward to this time with you because you for me, whether it was Insecure or White Lotus or How to Die Alone, it just…

Full transcript with timestamps

Hi, Pod Squad. It's me and I'm sitting here trying to decide how the hell to tell you about what's about to happen in the next hour. I think what I want to say to you is that we finally have one of my favorite actors here, Natasha Rothell. I love watching her act so much because she wakes me up in a way that every time she comes on the screen, my soul goes, "Oh hello." And it okay.

Was it not the most magical conversation you've ever had? Like I don't even know. I don't know how to

She's about to to to in her embodied gorgeous, wise, illuminating way show you how not only to survive this time, but to absolutely stay alive and thrive during this time. Just you're welcome. Here's Natasha Rothell. Amanda, tell them for anyone who possibly doesn't know who Natasha Rothell is. Natasha Rothell is the creator, executive producer, and star of the critically acclaimed Hulu series How to Die Alone, which she conceived and came up with by herself and stars in. Um she that is currently streaming. She's also recently earned her second Emmy nomination for um her role as Belinda Lindsay, you know, the White Lotus.

She is also known for her work on HBO's Insecure and she has her own production company Big Hattie Productions which she uses to create and produce all kinds of beautiful art for um the purpose of championing marginalized voices in subversive ways. She is.

Yeah. She is subtly and beautifully and elegantly subversive. Yes. It's like you're being subversive and you're so damn cute about it.

And she may be she may have called herself the third Doyle sister. So just y'all just here we go. I just have to tell you, we have so deeply been looking forward to this time with you because you for me, whether it was Insecure or White Lotus or How to Die Alone, it just you are someone when you come on screen, I just my I there's certain writers in my life when I first open a book and I read their words, I kind of wake up.

Oh. And I really when you come on screen of anything, I just I I don't know if it's like a a serious presence that you have or it's just all talent or if it's a God thing or what, but you just really are constantly radiating something that wakes people up.

Thank you. That means everything. I feel so seen. Um, no, that means everything. And like I said before, like uh back back and forth from the uh how to die alone writer room, you guys were like yeah brought me into every morning and I tell everyone and I I have a little I do I vision board because I'm I'm that girl and I have a we can do hard things little uh cut out on my vision board. It's just true. The love is real.

It's real. Wow. Okay. Well, that's all I need for this week. Um, and it's and it's a freaking week Natasha.

This week has been a year. My god. That's why I'm happy to be here. This is like this is a warm hug.

Warm. So, you must know that over the years as I really just tried to figure out what was going on with you on screen, I started to like read a lot about you. So, I would watch all your interviews or read your things to try to figure out what you know that it was like one of those I'll have what she's having situations. So, I try to find out what you're having. Um,

and what I've done, what we've done for this time together is we've just grabbed a few little things that you've said

and we want to read them to you and then we want to they're just little little things.

Oh my word. Okay. because I feel like you are actually a philosopher of I mean I know you are that you are kind of a philosopher and the way you talk about the big questions of life in your art and in interviews is I just want that for the pod squad. I want them to just hear you talk about things.

Okay. Um so the first one which I have memorized I don't even have to look at my notes. um is something you said in an interview a long time ago when I knew that we were soulmates and you said the thing that confused you the most was to hear Ariel from The Little Mermaid say I want to be where the people are and you said I do not want

that to be where the people are. There's nothing I want less. I do not want to be where the people I want to be where the people aren't. I want to be I want to be in the underground bunker. I want to be away far up in a tree.

Yeah. Yes. Where do you If you had to finish that line, I want to be where the are where the laughter is. I want to be where the the the the um the nervous system regulation is. I want to be

I want to be where the rest is. I want to be where the cortisol is is zero. That's where I want to be.

Yeah. So, America. That's good. America. Tick, tick, tick. Mhm. Yes. Yeah. I was thinking I want to be where the couches are. I want to be

the pajamas, the edibles. Like, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, so do you for the pod squad, are you an introvert? Is describe how you find peace and joy and connection if it's not in other people?

I the thing is I do, but I understand at my big age that there is a cost for engagement and I have to pay it. I don't know how to halfass like connection or even conversation. So if I'm out at an event and there's a line of, you know, complete strangers, I will be with them and talk to them and give of myself in that moment. I don't know how to reserve that energy. So I just know that after those exchanges which light me up and give me purpose, I feel incredibly depleted. And I love to recharge solo with my dogs, just being with myself.

Um, and I do, you know, engage in social media, but that's a way where I can control the output and input of that energy. Um,

and more so just turn off and be entertained. But I've just learned that of myself. And I think for a long time I would get frustrated that I couldn't just, you know, bounce back so quickly or I would bounce back quickly at a cost. You know, it's just like insomnia or whatever else. Um, but yeah, I I I definitely am an introvert in that sense. When I'm out, I'm out, but when I'm in, I need to be in in order to be out again. Are there certain kinds of people? This is what my my daughter and I were talking about the other night.

Are is there a certain type of person that you can be around that is recharging to you?

Absolutely. And are there certain types of people that you know are not are going to drain you faster? And usually

those people in my life like I I I can put them in those buckets of just like can I be around this person? And sometimes it's not even that they are additive to my energy. They just are it's neutralized like there's no expenditure. So I can just recharge myself and know that there's no kind of social, familial, fraternal obligation to like ask how someone's day, you know, like something as small as just like,

"Hey, how are you?" I sometimes I just don't care. Sometimes I'm like I gen I don't care if you're okay, right? I just can't ask you that question. So, um, it's definitely helpful for me to know who in my life and how much energy they cost. And so, there's some friends, some family that are expensive. And so, I have to save up for them. And then there's some friends that do pour into me. But I do think just because I'm so wired to be anxious and stressful and care about other people so much that even the ones that are attempting to pour into me, I'm like, "Oh my god, you must be exhausted.

Do you need something to drink? How about a seat?" You know, like it is compulsive. Like I don't know how to not reciprocate in the moment and just receive that. So

yeah. Did I mention I'm single? I wonder. H there's something there. That's interesting because as you were talking I was thinking I'm um first of all would people be surprised who when they're around you? Like if you're at a party would they would they leave and be like Natasha is an extrovert? Like is it is it are you one of those that presents because that's how I am. I I everyone would think I was an extrovert, but I'm like debilitated after it and then I have to recover.

So, is that true of you? Yeah, I feel like some people wouldn't know, but I do think as I've gotten older and more accustomed to advocating for my needs, I will sometimes announce like, you know, my battery is running low. I'm going to head out or like whatever. But like in the moment, I enjoy like I enjoy people. I enjoy like hosting and like making sure everyone's good and taking care of people and

and laughing and having a good time. But I I I feel like there was definitely years, even decades of my life where people just like that extrovert Natasha is just a hoot. And I'd be at home rocking in the shower fully clothed like what did I give away? Um Yeah. Yeah. My idea of myself is that I love taking care of people's needs and being around people. Like my best imagining of myself is surrounded by people. They're all over my house. They're at my table near my couch. But like every once in a while when I try it, I just hate it and want everyone to leave right away.

Correct. I'm just I I go in thinking Florence Nightingale and then I get there and I'm like Kathy Bates of Misery. I'm like I'm like one of us will die in order for this to to end well. I because I do think like the it is like whatever the saying is the the the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. like my body is just like I just can't and I um have really really been trying to honor that limit like when I come up against that boundary and not push push through it you know like there's this idea of martyrdom that I grew up with just cuz my you know grew up in the church and so it's just like if it hurts me must be great you know and it's not ever so yeah I'm getting used to to backing myself when I bump up against the the end of the the battery.

Do you believe that? Cuz we we were raised Catholic and by a football coach. Oh boy. So it was like Jesus on the cross and then additionally like keep your head down and hustle and no pain, no gain, no guts, no glory, all of the things.

So double whammy football and Catholic. Hail Mary. Hail Marys all the way. Do you believe that suffering is necessary? like is that do you think that's all [ __ ] And if not, how do you know what's the right kind of hard and what's the wrong kind of heart?

That's an incredible question. I don't think self-imposed suffering is necessary. I think that

suffering is built into life as we know it. And so I think understanding your own suffering I think is a catalyst for empathy because you can recognize it in other people.

But I think so much of the ideology of the church that I grew up in and it's you know it wasn't football on the other side but it was black church and it's just like you think you had it hard kind of like idea which is like no I guess I must go live harder lives you know like again. Um but yeah, I think that there was this idea of this self-sacrifice being so noble and worthy and

um I think I saw it through several generations of matriarchs in my family especially and I think I'm so grateful that my siblings generation like we put a stop to that sort of cyclical self flagagillation of just like you know

that isn't what makes us I think um worthy and I think sort of the insidious subtext of that kind of um martyrdom is I have to earn whatever grace or rest that I need in this moment I have to sort of log the hours of self-sacrif acrifice and then I can earn rest. And I thought that for the longest time, you know, even still, I I super struggle with days off because I'm like, I need to be productive. And it's taken a while for me to

internalize that rest is productive and that, you know, it's not something to be earned. It's it's a grace that we need to give to ourselves.

Yeah. And it's the point like I don't like when we talk about rest as Yeah. It's the thing we do so that we can get back to work.

You know, it's like, no, I think we just work a little bit so we can get back to rest.

Yes. That is truly the dream. Truly the dream. I was talking to someone the other day and they're like, you know, what are your goals for the next 5 years? And I was like, a vacation, you know, like, and I heard myself say it and I was like, that's not right. you know, like I shouldn't be putting rest or a break or a pause and kicking that can down the line. It's it's something that I could have today. And it's just having Yeah. the courage to do it because I do think it's so internalized. It's like muscle memory that like martyrdom and that kind of like work ethic of being like such a workhorse. But I'm getting I mean 20 plus years of therapy. I'm I'm I'm craw clawing my way out of that.

Yeah. It's beautiful too because it is muscle memory because even the like vacation it's like okay that is a defined space of time in which we have all agreed you are authorized to enjoy yourself and so we understand that but I think it's really hard

even when moments of ease are theoretically available not to feel discomfort in them because of the talk track that's like oh Oh boy, it's been 5 minutes and what are you doing? You should be doing this. Like

did have you been able to rework that muscle memory so you can actually experience the ease instead of like having that internal struggle all the time?

Yeah, I think for me the the struggle will always be there, right? And for me therapy is just being able to recognize my thoughts more quickly over time. And

I've gotten really good at recognizing when that tape starts and is telling me that like you if you sit and take this rest or if you just, you know,

turn on the TV and just like go and let it go, like you're not worthy because it's deeply tied to worthiness, I think, especially for those that have, you know, gone through the church of just like having that sacrifice. And so I'll hear that tape start and then I challenge those thoughts because I think, you know, feelings aren't fact. And for a long time I confused that. And so like if I was feeling like I wasn't worthy or like didn't deserve this time off, that was the fact and that was the truth and I had to sort of pay sweat equity in order to earn rest. And so

I'm better at challenging that muscle memory and that those those t thoughts when they play. Um and it gets quieter, right? Like the tape isn't loud, you know? It was super loud when I was younger and it's still playing, but it's a little softer and I can drown it out with, you know, Beyonce. So like there are ways that'll do it, right? There's worthiness there. So yeah. Yeah.

It's weird. It's like a great trick of capitalism to take these like things that are birthrights. Like there's only a few birthrights. Like we should be able to rest. We should be able to eat. We should be

and to take them away and then trick us into thinking. I mean it sounds like a version of diet culture. The way we're talking about rest like you have to earn

your It's the commodification of like wellness and rest and like the insidious part is the same system is making us sick.

Do you know what I mean? So it's just like the arsonist firefighter of just like let me make your you spin out about how you're not enough then here are things that you can do to make yourself enough but just kidding it'll never be enough and then you're back on the on the wheel. It's exhausting. What is the same with sex too?

Your birth rights. No, but like when you're talking about your birthrights of your own ease and rest and food and sexuality and then we come and get all these messages are like, "Okay, well, here's the following 400 rules in which the sex will be okay, which screws up the sex for the rest of your life."

Crazy. And I think it's just like the there's there's a benefactor at the end of this. I think in the same way we think about capitalism and other ways that it expresses itself, like

just follow the money. You know what I mean? It's just like there's so many people profiting off of our disease. And I think that

for me it's been this slow deliberate um pause I've been trying to insert in my not just thinking when you know the tape starting starts to play but just even checking in on is this actually um the medicine I need right now or is it actually poisoning me you know like and

it's it's yeah it's it's wildly nuanced but I think that slowing down in all of the ways is one way to sort of catch those moments where you're getting caught up in that that pull of of capitalism to determine if you're hot enough, if you're sexy enough, if you're, you know, smart enough, all of the enoughness. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think I want to know what kind of rest you have found that is actually restorative to you? Because I think one of the trickiest things and I can only I'm speaking from my experience right now is that what we've been trained to do now is that when we're feeling depleted or we can't do it anymore or whatever, we go on our phone. And for me, I was just thinking about last night, like I was in a pretty okay mood because I had been through the day of in America, which I'd already done all the highs and lows and and I was trying to do my breathing and I was in the bathtub taking my minute and then I started scrolling. Now, it's not just the doom scrolling for me.

It's the I can feel okay about myself. I can feel like I did enough. I'm okay. I'm gosh darn it, people like me and I have done my best. But then I get on the phone and Natasha immediately I feel like oh my god I didn't I'm not doing enough. Those people are getting all the things. I'm not relevant. Like all the like immediately 0 to 60. So it's like the thing that we're using to restore ourselves is actually what you described as as more poison. That is

what is actually helpful to you? It's different. It's different all the time, but there's some things that are consistent and they're not revolutionary. Crosswording. I love it. I do the New York Times crossword every day. It's so nerdy. Every answer that I get right is a little dopamine hit. Um, I can hyperfixate on it. Um, I do get on my phone and what I'm I feel like whatever alien is running Tik Tok, like it's curated to like cookie decorating. Like I'm watching like all of those videos. I'm watching like, you know,

Korean campers put up tents that are like like very bespoke and like it is just like so random and strange, but it's just like I can get into like someone watching glass bottles fall down the stairs and I'm like, "Yeah." And so part of it is giving myself permission to use social media to pacify me but not just incite me, which it does. And so I've tried to like for instance on my Tik Tok I don't follow I follow three three things I follow my nephew I follow Rhysa and I follow my show How to Die Alone but I don't follow people so my curation is really based on what I'm stopping to view and it's very like Legos love it.

Um so that's one way I also I enjoy a being in water bath. I like just like and you know what I'm just gonna say it edibles and here's why

I was not acquainted with the medicinal effects of THC until I came to California where it's just like you know everywhere and as someone who is neurode divergent and my mind the speed with which it can go it like would put Sonic to shame the to take an edible doesn't reduce me to like you know, being incoherent, it allows me just to have a little bit of quiet. So, to have that and sit and do a cross word puzzle delightful.

I al I bought some Lego sets, so I've been doing that. Um, inspired by Tik Tok. So,

there is maybe a capitalistic bent to that rest. But, um, yeah, sponsored this interview sponsored by Legos.

But yeah, Natasha, did you say you don't follow people? I think you may you said that very briefly, but I think you may have solved

only on Tik Tok social media. Okay. On Tik Tok, it's just those those three. My nephew texted me. He's like, "Ata, could you follow me?" And I was like, "I got you."

I was like, "I got you, boo boo." Um, so, and I also have the like a social media manager that curates my post. I don't even post like anything that's posted is her. I just turn it on like TV and I'm like, I wonder what cookies are in season. Are the Halloween cookies up? Let's watch some ghost cookies be made. Yeah.

Okay. So, now I'm trying to wonder if this is part of the sunshine that comes out of you. Do you not read anything about you? Like if your social media person is posting about you, do you not read the comments?

No, I don't read like the Instagram will alert me if a friend has commented and so I can engage and they're usually like, you know, saying what something wonderful. But when it comes to sort of like I am not in in the comments like that. No, I just like I also I think for me I know I'm already predisposed to think negatively about myself. So I'm just like I don't need no gas on the fire. So like for me I'm hunting for I'm like who liked it, you know? I'm like looking for the positivity and more often than not it it's there, you know?

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You mentioned your neurode divergence. Can you talk to us about this? When did this come to you as a fact? Yeah.

And how has it affected you and what is it? Um, it came to me as a fact uh a year ago, a little over a year ago. I have known my whole life that I got different factory settings than than my siblings and my peers. And there was a lot of thought put into things that my siblings and peers didn't. And I was just very hyper aware of, you know, I have extremely good pattern recognition, which also is u an offshoot of that neurode divergence. Um, and so I would be able to pick up quickly and sense changes and respond and, you know, react. And what brought me to it actually was Tik Tok. I was scrolling and there was a lot of people, you know, being late diagnosed ADHD.

And mind you, at this point, I was already diagnosed and medicated for anxiety and depression. um which come to find out a lot of people with ADHD have that and so there was a lot of

clues but I leaned in when I was seeing so much of my experience being shown on TikTok and so um last summer I went and saw a neurosychologist here in California who was wonderful and I did you know the whole eight hour battery of tests to sort of figure it out and

she was just like yeah you got raging ADHD girl Like I was like, "Really? Huh?" And I I just remember crying because it was just like it like it had it has a name and with that name comes a community and with that name comes comes understanding. And

I've always been very just kind of insatiably curious about myself because I was always trying to figure out why I was different. And so this kind of discovery of ADHD and

I was not on the autism spectrum uh or official autism diagnosis, but I do have a lot of autistic traits, which she was just like a lot of the overlap between ADHD and autism, that's sort of where you're living. And so, um, being able to know that about myself, I I went from being ashamed of my inability to um, run the same race as everyone else to being an advocate for my needs. as I mentioned earlier, like it was one of those things where

something as small as um my auditory processing as a part of ADHD um I can miss a lot of things because I'm thinking about a lot of things and so if I'm on set and a director is giving me verbal instructions in the past I would just like have anxiety and hope I got it and now I'm like

you know now I'm just like um can I can I see the note like can because I my visual sort of, you know, processing it'll stick faster or can you repeat that or feel free to stop me if I got it wrong and not have shame when that happens. And so

nice. It's like little tiny things like that where I was just like I'm slowly unmasking all the ways I have been masking my whole life. So it's been it's been revolutionary.

Was there grief in knowing for your past self that didn't know? I yeah, I cried a lot last summer about it. Like truly, because I was always

in I I did really well academically. I was in all the AP classes, advanced classes, and gifted classes.

And I busted my ass. And I remember just the effort that it took for me to keep pace because I knew I was smart, but it was just like it's taking me a lot to to to meet

the demands of these classes and the rigor. Um, and had I had the diagnosis, then I would have had more time for tests. I would have had accommodations and um had a lot more grace with myself. And I think that

yeah, it it it definitely had a grieving process of forgiving myself for not You guys are trying to make me cry. um forgiving myself for not um knowing, you know, as much as there was no way I could have or perhaps there was, but I just didn't. And so there's just um it's been it's been healing in that way of just like saying it's okay. You did the best you could, you know?

Is there any other side of it besides forgiveness that feels like like you forgive yourself? Is there any side that's like also wow

like I did all that without even with a different set of wiring or as you said is there any like holy [ __ ] way to go kid?

Yeah absolutely I it feels very much like that was me running with a parachute. Holy [ __ ] Like

yeah, that was um also understanding that it is a superpower to think like I do. And one of the craziest parts of the process that was really illuminating, it wasn't even the diagnosis. one of the tests um it's a um talks about processing speed and it takes you get like three weird symbols on one side and then you have a row of other weird symbols and you're timed and you have to identify if those three symbols are in that cluster of weird symbols and I do that portion of the test during this eight hour day and after I finished that one the neurosych was just like were you always this fast.

And of course, my immediate thought just from muscle me like, "Oh my god, did I do it wrong?" Like, "What? Like, oh my god, was I fast and wrong? Like, what?"

And she goes, "Natasha, I've done this for 20 years, and I've only graded this test up to page four." And she was like, "You're up to page 10." And I was like, "So, what does that mean?" Like, I thought some I literally was just like, "So, what do I have?" Like, "What is that?

What do I have? You have She was just like, "No, you're just" She's like, "Your brain just works incredibly fast." And so a lot of the stuff you miss is because you just have to remind yourself to slow down a little bit.

So it's a superpower. So it's like one of those things where it was just like I'm very aware that it is a privilege to be able to you know get help and you know go to a neurosych but there's so many free resources available for people who are inquisitive about the way their mind works or have a sense that you know there's something special about them. And I think, you know, hopefully we can post that when this when this airs and

absolutely. Yeah. So people can get started on that journey. Humor me by I must hear Natasha Rothell talk about God, okay? Because

and I'm going to start in any way you feel like it. I always feel like it's just almost like a for me it changes every single day how I think and talk about God. But

you said theater is a playground where I could do or be or explore all the things that weren't permitted in church. What? Oh, what? Um, it's such a big question and like you um I am discovering so many ways and so many different ways how God is expressed in my everyday life. Um, I grew up in the church and you know I use black church as an adjective like it's kind of um, you know, it's black church and um, there's a strong sense of right and wrong and permissibility and um, and there's a lot of denial of self in that and um, conforming and um, Um, I felt for me when I found theater, it was being able to have quote unquote permission to see what I actually thought and through the lens of a character, which for me was my sort of workaround on being able to like cuss and like, you know, well, I'm doing a play and I can do that and I can say [ __ ] because it's not me, you know, like very very very rudimentary

thinking. But I loved theater for that reason. It was a way to escape. It was a way to project myself onto a protagonist is why I love film. And I think it was what I was meant to be doing with my life. Like I do to speak of spirituality. I do think I have been called in this life to be a storyteller and to uplift storytellers and to center marginalized voices. is I feel that calling very strongly. And I think for me, my relationship to God has changed over time. You know, I think when I was super young in my teens, I was really desperately trying to protect and hold on to the version of God that my parents was, you know, they they believed in and held on to. And I just remember having this, you know, really interesting kind of radicalized moment in college. We had done Angels in America and I had gone home and I'm and my father and I like we we don't argue but we discuss like we have very

intense discussions and I just went in on you know the and I I want I I don't think all Christians are this way but many um have very harmful dangerous views views on sexuality that I was just I had been radicalized by Angels in America. And I just remember having this very deep conversation with my dad and that was kind of like the God I believe in wants to love and protect and support and honor the LGBTQIA community. That's the God I'm choosing to believe in. So I was like, okay, there's this separation of ideology that made me really curious about, well, if I'm going to find God for myself and understand God for myself, I'm not going to renovate the house, I'm going from ground up. You know, I want to I want to really know and believe

what I think and not just regurgitate what I've been taught my whole life. And it has been a beautiful wonderful exploration of that. Um, I still consider myself, you know, a woman of faith, but my God is so big and so loving and so inclusive and um that is I think what devastates me about the god of the right. Let's just call let's call it out. You know what I mean? where it is this weaponized anacronistic version of a white man that we're all um like being sub subjugated to, you know, and so

but that's not the God I know. So it's so crazy. um to be living in this time where people who are purporting to believe in the beauty of what love is and I do believe God is love and yet they behave with such malice and such vitriol and create so much harm. It's just that like my it's hard to reconcile that and But I remain steadfast. I think that for me, it's just that that's that's the God I believe in. Yeah.

I just thought of the title of this is for sure, but I remain steadfast. Remain steadfast.

I freaking love that. Yeah, that's beautiful. When do you feel closest to God? Um, I feel closest to God often when I'm improvising if I'm being honest. Like that is a state of flow where I just feel super connected into something greater. Um, when I sing,

um, I wouldn't call myself a singer, but I love to sing. I love to karaoke, but like even in the car, like there's something very um visceral um just hearing my sound in my chest vibrate that like feels I feel like I'm tapped into something bigger even if it is Shaka Khan. You know what I'm saying? So like it's

especially if especially if it is Shaka. Um, but yeah, I also think that um I've been flirting I' I've flirted with meditation over the years and um I remember doing I did this silent retreat. I'm going to do it again. This it's this Buddhist silent retreat. No tech. It's very scary. It's wild. Um but I think in nature when I look at the ocean, when I'm, you know, with trees, when I'm la like a good laugh, God is there. Do you know what I mean? like the kind where it's just like the mouths are open and you hear no noise because you're just laughing so hard. I'm like

yeah that that to me yeah I feel God everywhere in those moments. Yeah. They don't have to be I think I grew up and there was this sort of um you know there was a protocol you you only God's in church and it was just like

it's so weird. I'm like, so no, that [ __ ] is not just in church. He everywhere.

It's um going back to the beginning of the conversation, it's another trick like capitalism. It's like this thing that's your birthright we are packaging up, taking away from you, and then selling back to you. It's a little bit like the mafia. It really is. Like

we don't even know we have a problem. We think we're fine and in love on the earth. Someone knocks on our door and says, "Actually, there's a hell you're going to here's the thing.

Get ready for come to my place and I will protect you. It's very wild. It's wild. And I think the moment that you know

I found God for myself, the immediiacy of that relationship compared to what it was before

feels even more potent because it's like, oh, I don't have to like put on my church stockings and my, you know, little shoes, my Mary Janes that hurt my feet and like go into church and there, you know, there's God. It's like no when I was like I had a panic attack at the GLAD Awards um and God was there. Do you know what I mean? like the immediiacy of that of just like oh yeah if I have a moment of anxiety or if I have you know someone dear to me is in pain or trouble if I need to call on that or like summon that relationship and really feel like I am um trusting and believing in something bigger than myself.

that relationship is so internal and it's so present and it's so real and it's just devoid of all of the the the ceremony of religion. And I think that's the thing like I think religion and the performative aspects around a very sweet and beautiful relationship

is sort of what I'm glad to have you know shed. What is it about beautiful creativity? Because when you're talking about when you're doing improv, you are connecting with a creativity that taps into something bigger,

which I just heard you say when you're talking about being outside in nature or being like what is the part of being creative that has a throughine through nature and God and laughing and that is allows you to tap Mhm.

I think there's it's kind of a it is communing with something bigger than me and listening that happens in improv. they're listening to those instincts and to um you know very famously you know UCB New York their tagline is don't think you know and

obviously the idea there is to take yourself out of you know don't insert yourself in with the communication between something bigger and what's happening in the moment and just consider yourself the conduit and trusting that and

I think that what that communication is that's not for me to to decide, you know, I just need to be an open and a willing vessel. And I've been lucky enough to use my my instrument for comedy. And you know there's a scripture that says you know laughter does the heart good like a medicine you know and I do think there's a medicinal quality to laughter especially you know I gesture limply to the world like especially given all of the craziness that um is going on. It's cathartic to laugh. It's a communal thing. And so I love that and I love, you know, using it, you know, dramatically and making people cry and feel things and see themselves and have that recognition. I feel like all of that is holy, right? So there's this like um I think it's just like um it's not one specific um thing. I think it's being open and listening and allowing yourself to be used and

yeah, that is that is that is my church. Do you know what I mean? Like that's what makes sense to me as as someone of of faith. And yeah, it's it's it's it's why I've been put here. So,

I'm semi-obsessed with Jesus. Not like more guns, less gays, but like Palestinian activists. Like this is right.

Um, actually, I just have to tell you guys this. I just thought of this one second ago. So, I was in a congressman's office a couple weeks ago just with a bunch of Palestinian activists actually.

That's awesome. Begging him to sign block the bombs. Right. His name's David B. I was going to say,

are we not gonna name it? Like, we got to name it. And one of the my friends, Mohamad, showed David Men pictures. He has he's a doctor. He's gone back and forth. So, he was showing the congressman pictures of the babies that he had been trying to heal and the bombs, our bombs that had blown up these babies bodies. and he was showing the pictures and the congressman kind of kind of looked and and then he said, "You know, I have gone to my Episcopalian priest to talk to him about what I should do about this." And then he went on to say he needed to pick his battles and whatever. But I kept thinking there like Jesus was an activist.

Yes. Who was crucified for asking for a more beautiful and true world. Yeah. from the land of Palestine. You are ignoring the seven Jesuses around you.

Yeah, we are Christian nationalists are constantly crucifying Palestinian activists who are begging for a true and more beautiful world in the name of a Palestinian activist who was crucified for begging for a true and more beautiful world. The irony, it's it's unbelievable how individuals who purport to be followers of Jesus and his teachings and the teaching of the church to not recognize in this moment with Palestine the opportunity to show up and walk the walk

and to do the work that he set out to do. And it's it boggles my mind that there are people in these positions to actually help and affect change and they're so afraid of actually moving in a way that would lose them votes or lose them money. And like there are all these things and they're putting that above what they're saying is the most important thing. It's so it's just truly [ __ ] And it it is

Yeah. I it it I I wish I could get to a place where I it's not a constant shock and awe campaign every time I hear it, but I every time I'm just like like how how can you even sit in a service on Sunday and not recognize the opportunity for you to actually make the world a better place? It's it's Yeah, I think that's what I mean when I say like for me God is a relationship, not the religion because I do think there is such Yeah, there's such theater in let me go talk to my my priest. Let me go do that. And like there's just miss me with that. Miss me like be so [ __ ] for real. Do something.

Actually, I was like do something. Did you ask the priest, "What would Jesus do?" Why don't you just ask Jesus because there's seven of them at your table right now.

Exactly. Jesus is here. He's right here. Right here. News at 11. Do something. Sign the bill.

Yeah. And now it's time for our ads. Here's the thing about zel. Life's full of those little moments when sending money makes a big difference. like pitching in for a last minute group gift or sending your kids some extra cash at college. Or better yet, use it to delight yourself by seeing the people in your life and being able to give them a little thoughtful love that makes their day. Recently, one of my little cousins was going through some hard things and I wanted to send them my love and support. But since I couldn't actually show up in person, being able to send a little funds so they could go get some coffee on me felt like the next best thing. It was simple. It made my day. And I hope it helped them through theirs. Whether it's a big moment or a small moment, Zel is here for you so you can be there for them. When it counts, send money with Zel.

Do you also think that there's something Jesusy about acting? Because I do. I just hear me out for a second.

The whole story about spirit. Oh. Oh, I can't hear. Oh, can you hear me? She dropped. She got so excited about her acting excited that she dropped her.

I thought God silenced me, which happens sometimes. I just want to say how much I love this conversation. Like this is very rarely do I get to talk about my faith and oftentimes because of that can be misconstrued as like you said guns, God, gays kind of Christian. But like you're so [ __ ] for real right now. I love it. This is my I love this. So what's your story? Sorry.

Well, just hear me out. So the whole story is like spirit collective consciousness being incarnated into a body like ghost like sloop here here in a body in a different body

and that's what actors do like when you're talking about improv as spirituality I can't help but make the connection to you are ghosting you are incarnating

a different body and bringing your spirit to it. And doesn't isn't that the practice of empathy and then everybody in the audience

is doing a lesser version of vacating their own self and now living in your shoes. And so it's kind of a collective consciousness spreading of empathy for all of us which is very God to Jesus information.

That's church. That's church. That's the church I want to be a part of. You know what I mean? Like

there is something so powerful in theater and that I've done shows where I don't even remember

the like I'm like everyone's like you did great. I was like, I don't remember. Like, because you're so tapped into, like you said, that collective consciousness, that collective spirit and in your transformation, you're giving permission to the audience to transform and you're all having this collective religious experience. Do you know what I mean?

I do. And it's like, sure, let's call it wicked, but like we all went somewhere. Do you know what I mean?

Yes. We all went somewhere. I feel that way when I see like an amazing like band play and they're, you know, when they jam and I'm out of my body and they're out of their body. There's something so holy and spiritual about that exchange. And like you said, it is that empathy of of that transactional empathy where I'm giving into the story that I've been given. I'm taking that on and I'm get letting go of myself. and audiences let like you said they let go of themselves and we can just all be in this space where higher consciousness is communicating to all of us something valuable and I think that's why I don't care how long I do this I will always do live theater like there's something so

like television and film have an amazing way to do that but it's just you can't replicate that exact kind of church feeling when you're yeah a good show and good music, all of that. It's transformative.

Is it the presence? Is it the Is it the Cuz before you were talking about like the urgency of the relationship and the the the immediacy and the presence and there's something that is

in a world where like we look out at the world and we see things and then 90% of the world is telling us we don't see those things.

That that's the thing that we see happening is not happening. And then you get in a space where you're having an undeniable immediate present experience that is so it's life affirming because you're like there's one thing happening here.

Yeah. It is powerful to experience emotion collectively. collective grieving, collective laughter, collective, you know, sorrow.

And it's like you said, it's like everyone has agreed to the rules. You know, the phones are off. We're all watching the same thing. It may touch us in many different ways, but we're not denying that this happened. And the thing too that's special about live theater is that that exact play and the way it was communicated that night will never happen again.

And that to me is like how often in life now do we have those unique undeniable moments where it's just like if you weren't there you weren't there. And I think that

is power. Like that is that is I don't know. Pass the offering plate. That's my church.

Yeah, they should pass offering plates in the theater. Yeah. Oh, they would make so much. This is a good idea.

A good idea. I think I have stumbled upon something. You always do. Always do. Wow. I freaking love that. That's why it's like it's not extra. It's not I'm just begging the world to not abandon the arts right now because

it can feel like well we have to keep putting out fires and so that's extra and it's not extra. It's like

it's the antidote. The only thing that's real and collective and it's the only place we're not living in an algorithm.

That's right. It is it is pure in that respect. And I think that Yeah. it, you know, everything going away with the PBS funding and and arts in general. I think it's it's what helps me because there can be this idea, right, in especially for what I do that like

how is this helping, right? We've all had those sort of existential crises where it's just like

yep, how like this is like I'm working on this script and I was just like this semicolon doesn't m like what's going on? But then it's like like it's being reminded like, oh no, this is a part of the synthesizing art and getting it out there to help people in the same way that we're talking about. And so

there is such a need for it now more than ever. You know, we see this with, you know, the artistry in the live theater of Colbear and Kimmel. like the administration understands the power that happens when you create these

moments of collective, you know, catharsis and spirituality. Like that's potent and they recognize that. So

yeah, it's it's a scary time, but I think that for me it's just a signal to double down. For sure

it is. And it's a good clue. Like if you're somebody who can't figure out what's important about life or being human, you you must just look at what fascists go after.

If you want to know what's important, right, watch what they go after and double down on that because they know

I know educate what brings life. Like Yeah. History. Yeah. Empathy. Accounts, truthful accounts of things that happened is the is the first thing they go after. That's why they're stripping.

They want the all the museums. That's why they're critical race theory. That's why it's it's because if what you're saying is the like

it's those things that you're talking about it it's yourself. It's like the the the power is the expression of yourself in whatever form it is. And and if folks can't express themselves creatively, comedically, uh historically, scholarly, like sexually, then sexually, then the only expressions

that are occurring are the expressions of authority. Yeah. Of sanctioned authority. And so

it's anything that is self-expressive, is so spiritual, and is also so dangerous.

Yeah. They can't commodify individuality. If we're all the same, if we're all limited in the same way, then they can figure out how to make money off of our compliance.

And if we remain individualistic, if we remain autonomous, that's dangerous to them because it's reminding them that they do not have the power we do. So it's it's very I mean it's a very good plan you know they it's a it's a very good plan. it they've tried it before, you know, and so I think

I think that's why for me I will always use my platform to draw attention to to to exactly this and to continue to use the I mean it it is the Kabuki theater of the Hollywood entertainment industry. To me, the only way I can make sense of it is like every carpet I'm on, I'm talking about those causes and things that matter to me. I'm going to continue to, you know, use my megaphone to remind us that we are autonomous, that we have a choice, that we don't, we're not complying in advance. We are

going to fight for um for our right to exist and to to be happy. And um it is going to be a fight, but

I ain't tired. I'm ready. Okay, that's another title. What What does matter to you today? Like I I know I have studied you over the years well enough to know that there's a lot of things that matter to you. So that's why I'm asking just now, what's most on your heart and mind in this moment? My heart is heavy. Um there's so much I I I think I mean we spoke about Palestine and the horrors being perpetrated there. Um that is kind of constantly on my mind. I think also what has happened to Jimmy Kimmel is very scary.

And as someone in the creative and performing arts, as someone who will always speak truth to power, this really felt like um the canary in the coal mine is that [ __ ] dead. You know what I mean? Like it that's how it felt. And I think in times like these it's it can be really um devastating because it's just like well what can't I can't I can't go higher and back like what can I do? Um and I kind of always circled you know three things. It's you know do what you can if you can when you can. And if that's tweeting in opposition, if that's boycotting, if that's sending a letter of love to him and his family of support, um if it's speaking out, you know, at the dinner table, and um there's always something to be done. And so I think in these times I try to remind myself of what agency I have. Um, but yeah, I think the very obvious they didn't even try. Like it's so it's so out in the open, you know what I

mean? It's like so out in the open of their attack on free speech. It's it's unap an unapologetic attack on on free speech. And so for me, it's

we have to use that weapon of speech to to combat it. And um yeah, I think that would be on my heart.

I think the connection between Palestine and then all the way to Jimmy is interesting because had we paid attention to the actual canaries in the coal mine, which were the kiddos who were organizing and the Palestinian activists here who were organizing, but everybody was cool with them being rounded up.

Yep. Yep. They were the canary in the coal mine for us. We didn't pay attention because it and now you go very quickly from that to all the way to

a very powerful man on TV. So for a straight sis white man who is a multi-millionaire on TV to be targeted and hurt. Look in the rear view. There are a lot of bodies

That's right. that don't look like that that that paved the way. that could have been opportunities to change the course. And so,

yeah, it's it's many many many dead canaries on on that road for sure. But my hope is that we don't suffer anymore, you know, like we need to

the the time to act is now. Yeah. It's past time. Yep. And lastly, I just want to say this. We know the trouble. We know the trouble. But circling to art and to what keeps us alive, not as an extra thing we're doing, but as we're dipping into every damn day to remember what makes life worth fighting for.

You know that, oh god, you guys, I'm thinking right now of who it is. I'll look it up. that the man who was uh such a gay activist when the AIDS crisis was hitting and he said we bury our friends in the morning, we march in the afternoon. Okay, I'm going to start crying and we dance at night. That trifecta,

we grieve, we work, we dance, we dance. Has to be the way. Has to be the way. All of them. We can't ignore any of them or we will not have because the dancing is what reminds us that that all of this is worth working for and grieving for.

Yeah. So to get to the dance, what is there any art recently, Natasha, that just surprised you, whether it's a book or a show or a poem or anything that felt especially delightful or healing to you? First of all, I want to say that is that is going I'm I'm getting that [ __ ] on a pillow today. That is grieve, fight, dance. That is that's real. Um, and I will say in addition to the dance being what we're fighting for, to me it's such a giant [ __ ] you to those that wish to oppress and silence us that you will not take my joy. you will not take my my my joy and um a little joy for me part of my neurode divergence just to bring it all together um I hyperfixation has been a theme in my life and so it could be a meal that I'll just truly have every single day or a song that I'll just listen to on repeat to the point that Spotify sends in help you know um they're like this is this is too much Um,

and for me that song, there's this amazing London artist, Olivia Dean, and she has this song, Man I Need, and it's like a bppy kind of like fun song that it is just it just lights me up. And um I'll have it on repeat. I'll like scream sing it in the car. I'll have it on all the time. My poor dogs are just like, "She's not okay." And I'm like, "No, it'll be all right." Um, but yeah, it was just nice to I've been a fan of hers for a long time and this song was just kind of like a happy, hopeful kind of like Yeah. So, that was that's been bringing me a little bit of joy.

That's what I needed. Thank you. Just needed something to Google today. What about you? What What are you both What is the your What is your dance right now? What is lifting you up?

What is my dance? I mean, my baby girl is coming home for as like a unexpected visit from her first year of college tonight.

Yay. Yes. And so my entire family is going to be trapped with me for a couple days. And I Abby and I promised each other that we we swore to each other that for Saturday and Sunday we would turn off our phones and not react just for two days. And I'm so excited for that. Natasha,

I love that so much. Amanda, do you have any anything? My current lifeline. My current lifeline is Padre Otum. He is an Irish um writer. You can't describe him. He is a poet

and a theologian and a memoirist and he's queer and he go he like he I'm obsessed with Ireland and Irish politics and all the things he brings like all of my favorite things

into one story where he calls it um narrative theology. ology. So he is telling the story th this most recent book is called in the shelter. It's from this Irish proverb that's it's in the shelter of each other that the people live and it he is telling the story of his faith through growing up as a queer Irish kid during the troubles who wanted to be a priest who and then like telling the whole story of

the division visions of Ireland and the British Empire's oppression and colonialism and but all through like this gorgeous pros and so I have listened to his book literally three times in a row as soon as I stop it I just start it again

because it's just feeding me and comforting me in this way that I like it's like scratching a brain itch of just like all the things that light you up Yes. Yeah.

I love that. And the Irish accent. Before we go also. Oh, the Irish accent. I mean, forget it.

Forget it. It's a really good thing he's gay. I'd be like, to Dublin we go. To Dublin we go.

The cliffs of more of you. Yeah, exactly. We love it. Natasha, my final question and then I really will let you go is um will you be our best?

Yes. Yeah, I've been waiting for this moment for so long. I'm serious. I have been lit up by this conversation. I think it just it's why I was such a fan of the show. You guys were so thoughtful and you're so my people. You're so like you think about the world in the same way I do and it is just a dream to be on. It's you are so lovely, so wonderful. Um, yeah. I want to be the third Doyle sister.

So, she's saying she'll hyperfixate our title. That's all. I want to be up in there. I want to be up in there.

Oh, no. You guys are so everything. Everything. Thank you, Natasha. Please, if you ever want or need or any if you just just I'm here and we're so grateful for you existing in the world. Tell Abby to to add me to her New York Times puzzler or friend list.

I I don't know what that is, but I will tell her. It's Yeah, I love it. I love it.

Don't know. Pod Squad, we love you. Go forth and grieve work and dance. Dance. See you next time. Bye.

Oh my god, I love you so much. I love you so much. You guys, that was everything I dreamed of. Times 20. We did all the things.

We can do hard things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human. Forever dog is our production partner and you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and at we can do hard things show on Tik Tok.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Natasha Rothwell: The Third Doyle Sister?!"?

Glennon Doyle (Host), Natasha Rothwell (Guest), Amanda (Guest).

What is "Natasha Rothwell: The Third Doyle Sister?!" about?

Natasha Rothwell, a talented actress and creator known for her roles in "How to Die Alone," "The White Lotus," and "Insecure," engages in a transformative conversation about survival and thriving in challenging times. As the founder of Big Hattie Productions, she emphasizes her commitment to elevating marginalized voices through art, showcasing her unique blend of charm and subversive creativity.

What is mentioned in this We Can Do Hard Things episode?

8 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Natasha Rothell, How to Die Alone, White Lotus, Insecure, Big Hattie Productions, Zip Recruiter. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Natasha Rothwell: The Third Doyle Sister?!"?

The episode runs 1 h 16 min; the transcript is about 11,729 words in 209 timestamped sections.

More from We Can Do Hard Things

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 15, 2026.