Why Success Won’t Make You Happy! w/ Dr. Laurie Santos

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Norway, The Happiness Lab, Arrival Fallacy, Bottoms Up and the Devil Laughs
2. 10:00 – 20:00: PipeDrive, Arrival Fallacy, Dan Gilbert, Flush Balm
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Hedonic Adaptation, Job Crafting, Savoring, Journey Mindset
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Savoring, Airbnb, Airbnb, Shopify
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Time Affluence, Time Confetti
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Self-Compassion, Charlie Kirk, Fourpiece Media, Manosphere
7. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Crystallized Intelligence, Time Affluence, Mark Manson, Savoring
8. 1:10:00 – 1:11:35: Castbox, Hala Taha

Notable quotes from "Why Success Won’t Make You Happy! w/ Dr. Laurie Santos"

• Dr. Lorie Santos, Yale professor and host of the Happiness Lab podcast, whose groundbreaking course on the psychology of well-being has transformed millions of lives. We often think that happiness is like a destination, like get the.

  about The Happiness Lab · at 0:08

• Chasing things that don't deliver lasting joy. In this conversation, we'll break down why the arrival fallacy leaves us disappointed, how we quickly get used to the good things…

  about Arrival Fallacy · at 1:36

• This is what psych psychologists call hedonic adaptation, which is just a fancy way of saying if you have something for a while, you stop noticing how good it is over time. you know that if you get a new phone, a new.

  about Hedonic Adaptation · at 11:04

• By the Wharton Business School professor Amy Rzninsky who talks about what she calls job crafting. And so this is thinking of your job not in terms of a particular job…

  about Job Crafting · at 24:41

• I've heard you speak about this concept of savoring. when something good happens, how can we actually stretch that joy a bit?

  about Savoring · at 27:51

• Meeting. For me, those are little great moments of what the journalist Bridget Schult calls time confetti.

  about Time Confetti · at 38:01

• I mentioned Ashley will name. She does all this work on what's called time affluence. this kind of subjective sense that you have free time. Usually what's affecting us isn't the objective amount of free time we have. It's the.

  about Time Affluence · at 40:59

• He told me about was this concept between fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence and that some of the most successful people in the world get really unhappy as they…

  about Crystallized Intelligence · at 1:02:41

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Mark Manson — Person · 2 mentions · first at 1:04:14
  I actually want to do one more with Mark Manson. Okay. So Mark Manson, he talks about the backwards law. So he says happiness isn't about eliminating problems but solving better ones.
• Dan Gilbert — Person · 1 mention · first at 19:07
  Expectations are so high, often it's not nearly as good as we think. and this is something that researchers like Dan Gilbert call the impact bias. the impact of the good things…
• Scott Galloway — Person · 1 mention · first at 57:18
  Necessarily about happiness, but we talked about young men in this country, and I talked about that with Scott Galloway, and, we were talking about how men nowadays are like more lonely. more women are entering college, women are.
• Charlie Kirk — Person · 1 mention · first at 57:45
  Epidemic in terms of unhappiness with men and we see that translate into shootings like we just saw with Charlie Kirk for example, right?
• Gretchen Rubin — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:00:28
  Organization. I wish more people would do that. Okay. So I spoke with Gretchen Rubin quite a few times and her whole thing is outer order inner calmer is what she talks about…
• Arthur C. Brooks — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:02:36
  Okay, last one. I had Arthur Brooks on the show a few times and one of the things that I never forgot that he told me about was this concept between fluid intelligence and.
• Hala Taha — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:10:54
  Channels. You can find me on Instagram at Yapw with Hala or LinkedIn. Just search for my name. It's Hala Taha. And of course, before we go, I've got to shout out my amazing…
• Amy Wrzesniewski — Person · 1 mention
• Ashley Whillans — Person · 1 mention
• Brigid Schulte — Person · 1 mention
• Dr. Laurie Santos — Person · 1 mention
• Kristin Neff — Person · 1 mention
• Laura Vanderkam — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Psychology and the Good Life — Book · 1 mention · first at 2:30
  Popular courses. One in four students are enrolled in this course and it's called Psychology and the Good Life. So talk to me about the spark that initially helped you come up with the idea of actually putting out this course at Yale.
• Bottoms Up and the Devil Laughs — Book · 1 mention · first at 8:22
  Yeah, we know a lot of this from this world happiness report that comes out each year in March, right? Where they kind of rank different countries. And so that's where the Scandinavian countries always kill it. I think Norway is the.

Companies & orgs

• The Happiness Lab — Company · 3 mentions · first at 0:10
• Airbnb — Company · 2 mentions · first at 34:55
  Letting me enjoy their space. And they're not even there. That's the beauty of Airbnb's new co-host network.
• Pushkin Industries — Company · 2 mentions
• Merit Beauty — Company · 1 mention · first at 13:00
  Use products that I love. And my favorite brand for my everyday look is Merit Beauty. I'm really into like glowy skin, healthy skin, having that like flushed look, especially…
• Yap Media — Company · 1 mention · first at 14:40
  Schedule follow-ups so nothing slips through the cracks. We use Pipe Drive every day at Yap Media. In fact, EIE on my sales team just this morning told me she was thankful for…
• Mattel — Company · 1 mention · first at 33:47
  E-commerce, helping millions of businesses from startups to household names like Gym Shark and Mattel. They handle everything from website design to inventory management and…
• Harvard Business School — Company · 1 mention · first at 39:01
  Time that you do have. Well, one of the things researcher Ashley Willins at Harvard Business School finds is that even though we think we're busier than ever, and this includes…
• Fourpiece Media — Company · 1 mention · first at 54:18
  Everything but at least I felt like I was contributing and making a difference and it was called it's called fourpiece media is what I created.
• Castbox — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:10:12
  So grateful if you dropped us a five-star review on Apple, Spotify, Castbox, wherever you listen to the show. Don't just tap the stars. Write us a few words about what…
• Gymshark — Company · 1 mention
• United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network — Company · 1 mention
• Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania — Company · 1 mention
• Yale University — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• Great Skin Serum — Product · 1 mention · first at 13:18
  Like two totally different looks. And Merit Beauty is my favorite. They've got an amazing serum called Great Skin Serum. I love to wear that underneath like tinted moisturizer.…
• Flush Balm — Product · 1 mention · first at 13:25
  Like tinted moisturizer. I love to put like a little bit of concealer. And then I love to use their flush balm. Their flush balm is the best cream blush that I've ever used.…
• PipeDrive — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

• Savoring — Concept · 9 mentions · first at 27:53
• Hedonic Adaptation — Concept · 4 mentions · first at 11:05
• Time Affluence — Concept · 4 mentions · first at 41:01
• Job Crafting — Concept · 3 mentions · first at 24:45
• Time Confetti — Concept · 3 mentions · first at 38:06
• Crystallized Intelligence — Concept · 3 mentions · first at 1:02:45
• Arrival Fallacy — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 1:40
• Self-Compassion — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 51:36
  Actually good for performance. Much better strategy is one of self-compassion of kind of just being kind to yourself, treating yourself like a friend. And I think we don't like…
• impact bias — Concept · 1 mention · first at 19:09
  Nearly as good as we think. and this is something that researchers like Dan Gilbert call the impact bias. the impact of the good things that we get in life are not going to be…
• Journey Mindset — Concept · 1 mention · first at 21:05
  Ourselves to the journey. In fact, several researchers at Stanford have studied what they call the journey mindset, which is really just taking on this mindset of I'm just…
• Treat Yourself Fallacy — Concept · 1 mention · first at 27:15
  Than ourselves. this is the fallacy that we kind of like I often call it like the treat yourself fallacy, right?
• Negative Visualization — Concept · 1 mention · first at 32:02
  Young health and so on, right? One is this strategy of what's called negative visualization, which is just you quickly imagine the opposite of the good thing that's happening…
• G.I. Joe Fallacy — Concept · 1 mention · first at 35:39
  Another big fallacy. This is a fallacy that researchers call the G.I. Joe fallacy, which for you young and YAP listeners out there was a cartoon in the 80s about these kind of army guys called G.I. Joe who would go out there.
• Manosphere — Concept · 1 mention · first at 59:31
  To be the path out. there's a really interesting new sociologist book on the manosphere that kind of digs into these kind of internet cultures where people, are really angry about women and like very lonely young men. And they say what an.
• Fluid Intelligence — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:02:43
  Of the things that I never forgot that he told me about was this concept between fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence and that some of the most successful people in…
• Backwards Law — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:04:16
  I actually want to do one more with Mark Manson. Okay. So Mark Manson, he talks about the backwards law. So he says happiness isn't about eliminating problems but solving better ones.
• Beautiful Mess Effect — Concept · 1 mention · first at 1:07:02
  We ask for help, we're often perceived as better. There's this lovely phenomena called the beautiful mess effect that when you seem a little messy, when you seem like you need…
• Memento Mori — Concept · 1 mention
• Miswanting — Concept · 1 mention
• Outer Order, Inner Calm — Concept · 1 mention
• Social Comparison Theory — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

• Norway — Place · 2 mentions · first at 7:53
  However, like we hear about these studies of like Norway being really happy and people who live a more simple life, in maybe a third world country, they don't know any better in terms of you.
• Denmark — Place · 1 mention · first at 8:31
  Always kill it. I think Norway is the current leader. It's usually Norway or Denmark or something. and that raises a question of like what are they doing differently? And I…
• Arizona — Place · 1 mention · first at 34:40
  Years, I've had the chance to stay in some truly unforgettable Airbnbs. From serene desert escapes in Arizona to sleek modern lofts in Austin, Jersey City, and even Portugal.…
• Jersey City — Place · 1 mention · first at 34:43
  Some truly unforgettable Airbnbs. From serene desert escapes in Arizona to sleek modern lofts in Austin, Jersey City, and even Portugal. Every space has its own vibe, and every…
• Portugal — Place · 1 mention · first at 34:45
  Serene desert escapes in Arizona to sleek modern lofts in Austin, Jersey City, and even Portugal. Every space has its own vibe, and every time it hits me, somebody's earning…
• United States (states) — Place · 1 mention

Sponsors

• PipeDrive — Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 14:14
  Attention, you're guessing instead of closing deals. That's where today's sponsor, Pipe Drive, comes in. It's the number one CRM tool for small to mediumsiz businesses. Pipe…
• Shopify — Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 33:38
  Want you to turn those whatifs into why nots and help your business soar with Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind over 10% of US e-commerce, helping millions of…
• Airbnb — Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 34:55
  Letting me enjoy their space. And they're not even there. That's the beauty of Airbnb's new co-host network.
• Merit Beauty — Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 13:00
  Use products that I love. And my favorite brand for my everyday look is Merit Beauty. I'm really into like glowy skin, healthy skin, having that like flushed look, especially…

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 The world is like anxietyprovoking and frustrating right now, especially for young people thinking about moving into the working world.

0:08 Dr. Lorie Santos, Yale professor and host of the Happiness Lab podcast, whose groundbreaking course on the psychology of well-being has transformed millions of lives. We often think that happiness is like a destination, like get the promotion and then I'll be happily ever after. But of course, happiness is much more like a journey. It's much more changing over time. As soon as you get that good thing that you like, you might just get used to it. Studies show that in fact you wind up happier if you can focus on the journey rather than the goal at the end. Now does that mean that we need to be like not goal oriented at all? No, of course not. Right? We always have to have goals. The key is there's a big epidemic in terms of unhappiness with men. What is your perspective on some of the things that they specifically need to look out for?

0:53 I think a lot of the solutions that are presented to young men are very individual solutions like treat yourself, do yourself, you you. And I'm like, oh my gosh, there's such an obvious way to feel better here. And it's about What's up, Yap Gang? We live in a world that tells us happiness comes from chasing more, more money, more success, more picture perfect milestones. But what if the science shows we've been getting it wrong all along? Today on Young and Profiting, I'm joined by Dr. Lorie Santos, Yale professor and host of the Happiness Lab podcast, whose groundbreaking course on the psychology of well-being has transformed millions of lives. Lori is here to debunk the biggest myths about happiness and reveal why our brains constantly trick us into chasing things that don't deliver lasting joy. In this conversation, we'll break down why the arrival fallacy leaves us disappointed, how we quickly

1:44 get used to the good things in life until they stop feeling special, why constant comparison robs us of contentment, and so much more. But before we get into the good stuff, if you're a new listener, be sure to follow this show for more amazing conversations every week. Dr. Lorie, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

2:01 Thanks so much for having me on the show. Yeah, I'm so excited for this. you know, I've seen your podcast in the charts all the time and I've always wanted to have you on the show. So, I've been trying to get you for a long time. So happy you're finally here.

2:15 Yes. Yes. Super happy to be here. So, I was doing some research about you and I found out that you've been a professor at Yale for a number of years and you actually teach one of their most popular courses. One in four students are enrolled in this course and it's called Psychology and the Good Life. So talk to me about the spark that initially helped you come up with the idea of actually putting out this course at Yale.

2:40 Yeah, so I've been teaching at Yale in the psych department for a while now. Um, but in just the last couple years, I took on this new role on campus where I became what's called the head of college. And that just means like a faculty member who lives on campus with students. And so I was seeing student life like really up close and personal. Like I was hanging out with students in the dining hall and like seeing them in the courtyard. And honestly, I didn't really like what I was seeing. I was seeing this college student mental health crisis up close and personal. And like it's not just at Yale. Like right now nationally, more than one in four college students reports being too depressed to function most days. Over 60% of college students say that they're overwhelmingly anxious. More than one in 10 has seriously considered suicide in the last 6 months. Like it's a it's a real national crisis. And so and that

3:22 was what I was seeing in my community, right? I was this like benevolent aunt faculty person hanging out with these students and so many of them were struggling. And that felt particularly like frustrating as a professor of psychology because like our field has so many things that you can do to improve your life, to have better habits, to feel less stressed out. And so I said, well, let me just develop a whole class where I teach students this like practical advice that we get from my field. Um, I expected it to be popular, but I didn't know it was going to be so popular. Like we had to teach the class in a concert hall the first time I taught it cuz other than other than the football stadium was the only spot where we fit. Um, but but I think that's telling, right? I think it's it's it's important to notice that like college students are not liking the fact that so many of them are depressed and anxious.

4:05 They want like evidence-based strategies to do better. Do you think the happiness crisis is getting worse as time goes on? And what are some of the things that make it worse, especially for younger students and things like that?

4:18 Yeah. Well, we have data on this, these like big national surveys that have been going on for decades now. And like right now, young people's happiness is is the worst it's ever been since we've been collecting data, which is pretty sad. Um, that's definitely true in the US and other English-speaking countries. Similarly true in many parts of the world. Um, in terms of like why that is, I feel like that's the harder question. Be so much easier if there was like a smoking gun and like one thing that was bad and we could just fix it. But I think there's a bunch of stuff. I mean, I think, you know, the world is like anxietyprovoking and frustrating right now. I think the economy is anxietyprovoking and frustrating right now, especially for young people thinking about moving into the working world. Um, that's happened before, you know, in the history of economics, but I think right now it's like kind of in

5:02 people's pockets in an anxietyprovoking way in a way that it's never been before, right? Like people are hearing about politics and all the bad stuff in the world all the time like dinging in their pockets, right? So I think technology kind of plays a role too. But I think also like a lot of times we see our young people are really going after the stuff that's like not going to matter. You know, maybe like money and prestige and accolades at the expense of something that will give them purpose and a sense of value, a sense of doing good in the world. And so I think priorities are off a little bit too.

5:32 Yeah, we're going to dig into all that, all the fallacies, the biases that people have about happiness. Uh, but first I really want to talk about scientific definitions because I know you look at happiness in a really scientific way and I know happiness is really twofold, right? There's two big pieces of it. So talk to us about that.

5:50 Yeah, I like to think of happiness as having these two parts of being happy in your life and being happy with your life. So being happy in your life is like how it feels to you in the trenches to like be you. You know, do you have a lot of positive emotion? Are you experiencing lots of negative emotion? Ideally, we'd have the ratio of positive to negative feeling pretty good. This is what scientists call the affective or the emotional part of your happiness. Um, but there's a second part, too, which is how you think your life is going. This is what researchers call the cognitive part of happiness. Like, all things considered, are you satisfied with your life? Do you have meaning and purpose? Do you think things are going well? And like best case scenario is that like both of these are are going up, right? Like you kind of feel good in your life, lots of positive emotions, laughter, joy, contentment, and so on.

6:33 and you kind of have a sense that your life matters, that it's meaningful, that you're doing important stuff.

6:38 Yeah, that's so interesting. So, it's it's basically like does your life feel meaningful and does it actually feel good in the moment? Those are the two two sides of the coin. Okay, cool.

6:49 And talk to us about the difference between happiness and pleasure because sometimes people get those two things mixed up.

6:55 Yeah, I think the pleasure part is really like what's happening in your life. It's part of the affective part. Pleasure is kind of one of the like affective states we can have, right? So, you're doing something that you experience as good. It kind of causes positive emotions. You don't experience it as frustrating or anxietyprovoking or sad, right? Um, but I think that, you know, pleasure on its own might miss out on the thinking your life is good. Obviously, you probably think your life is going better if you have lots of pleasure, but like if you only have pleasure, you know, if you don't have any challenges or interesting things you're pushing yourself towards, then you're probably not going to wind up thinking your life is going really well.

7:29 So I think we need to not just purely go for pleasure. We definitely want a life filled with lots of pleasure, but pleasure seeking alone might not lead to the most flourishing of lives.

7:39 So I know you just mentioned that for younger generations they're the unhappiest they've ever been. You also mentioned that worldwide it seems like everyone is generally more unhappy. However, like we hear about these studies of like Norway being really happy and like, you know, people who live a more simple life, you know, in maybe a third world country, they don't know any better in terms of like, you know, what life could look like and they're more happy because life is just like more simple. Talk to us about Western culture and maybe how that impacts our happiness and how other cultures might have a different perspective in terms of what a good life might look like.

8:20 Yeah, we know a lot of this from this world happiness report that comes out each year in March, right? Where they kind of rank different countries. And so that's where the Scandinavian countries always kill it. I think Norway is the current leader. It's usually Norway or Denmark or something. Um, and that raises a question of like what are they doing differently? And I think there's kind of two things. One is like they have different structural features of their culture that make things easier, right? you know, they have, you know, like universal health care and the kinds of things that like are a safety net that allow people to do what they want to do. Um, but they also have these kind of cultural things that matter, right?

8:53 There's a real cultural value on free time. One of the things I think we'll talk about that seems to matter a lot for happiness. We get so obsessed with being wealthy in terms of money, but we forget the importance of being wealthy in terms of time. And in Scandinavian countries, like people go home from work at 5:00. They have clubs and things that they do. It's not weird if you have to go pick your kids up for child care afterwards, right? It's just like kind of part of the culture that you prioritize that and do that. I think there's also a big prioritization of social connection, right? Um especially in these kind of cold countries in the cold months, there's a lot of huga, you know, this kind of comfort and comfiness with the people around you that you care about. And so there's a real prioritizing of time with the people you care about, too. And so, so I think it's some like features that are like

9:37 structural like, oh my gosh, we should have policies and governments that do better for us in terms of happiness in Western cultures, but I think also like we as individuals can promote different kinds of things that would be more likely to make us feel happier. Often the things that we don't think really matter.

9:53 So I hear you talking about essentially like your environment, your culture plays a role, but then also our own minds. You say that our own minds can sabotage our happiness and we're kind of wired to sabotage this happiness. So talk to us a little bit about what are some of the things that make us um you know evolutionary more likely to be unhappy.

10:16 Yeah. I mean I think our minds are like not built for happiness. You know if you think of what natural selection was going for it doesn't really care about happiness. It just wants us to survive and pop babies into the next generation. And it like happiness doesn't matter so much for that. If anything, it's really paying attention to the negative stuff and the threats and the anxietyprovoking stuff that would matter. You know, some ancestor that was like super happy and content all the time but didn't notice the tiger lurking to get you, right?

10:41 Like that's not really going to help for happiness, right? And so I think that's one thing to remember is like we're not built evolutionarily to be happy. We're built evolutionarily to be like cravy, anxious, kind of threat focused individuals, right? But in terms of some of the specifics, I think there's some ways our minds are wired to kind of mess us up. Um, a big one is that we're built to get used to stuff over time, right? This is what psych psychologists call hedonic adaptation, which is just a fancy way of saying if you have something for a while, you stop noticing how good it is over time. You know, you know that if you get a new phone, a new tech gadget, when you hit a certain salary level at work, at first that feels amazing, but you know, 6 months in, it's just your phone. It's just what you make, right? you're kind of ready for the next change. Um, that's all well and good when it comes to the bad things

11:28 in life that, you know, it's good that we kind of get used to the yucky stuff, but it's really bad when we get used to all the great things in life. That means you could have, you know, an amazing salary, an amazing job, amazing colleagues at work and you kind of stop getting the kind of pleasure from those things because like you've gotten used to it over time. Um, another big thing that we do is that we socially compare, right? We don't tend to think in terms of, you know, how we're doing objectively well, like if we have, you know, just overall a good salary or overall good accolades or we're performing well. We tend to compare ourselves with the people around us like across every metric, whether it's money or material possessions or our looks or whatever, like we're constantly not thinking in terms of just getting better ourselves, but kind of keeping up with the Joneses. And that just causes a ton

12:14 of misery because you know many billion people on the planet obviously on every metric we look at somebody's going to be better than us and we tend to find the one person who's doing better and look to them and then that makes us feel crappy. And so so these are just some biases of the mind that really like mess up how happy we can feel over time because we're getting used to all the good stuff out there and we're comparing ourselves in ways that we don't really need to.

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13:25 I love to use their flush balm. Their flush balm is the best cream blush that I've ever used. And the whole internet is obsessed with this cream blush. In fact, one every 30 seconds was sold last year. And if you want to make sure that you've got a skincare routine for your daily that you can do in just minutes, you've got to try Meritt Beauty. It was a total game changer for me. Right now, Meritt Beauty is offering our listeners their signature makeup bag with your first order at meritbeauty.com. Again, that's me rit beauty.com to get your free signature makeup bag with your first order. That's meritbeautyy.com.

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14:51 by salespeople for salespeople. Join the over 100,000 companies already using Piperive. Right now, when you use my link, you'll get a 30-day free trial. No credit card or payment needed. Just head over to piperive.com/profiting to get started. Again, that's piperive.com/profiting for a 30-day free trial and you can be up and running in just minutes. I feel like this is a perfect moment to go into a game that I have prepared called uh happiness fallacies. Okay. So, I'm going to read a belief.

15:21 You're going to tell me what fallacy it is or what bias or phenomenon it is, why it kind of messes us up or trips us up and what we could do instead. And I might, you know, ask some follow-up questions for each one. So, I'm going to read each belief and then you tell me what it is. Okay. Okay. The first one, belief number one. If I just doubled my salary, life would be perfect. Money buys happiness, right?

15:46 Yang. No. Big fallacy. Well, I should clarify. It kind of depends on where you are in this salary level, right? If you don't have enough money to put food on the table or put a roof over your head, yeah, doubling your salary would probably really impact your happiness. But I'm guessing for most of the like YAP fans who are listening right now, doubling their salary isn't going to matter very much. Um, and researchers like the late Danny Conorman actually did like nerdy detail about like, you know, at what salary does getting more not really matter anymore. And he finds in like $2010 that at around $75,000 uh any more money than that is not going to improve your your overall happiness.

16:24 It's not going to reduce your stress levels. It's not going to make you have any more positive emotion. Uh, which is definitely not what we think, but it's what the research really shows. So for most of the people listening, doubling your salary not going to really help your happiness.

16:36 Yeah. And digging a little deeper, tell us about the concept of mis wanting, right? This is what this is. It's mis wanting. You think you think doubling your salary is going to make you happy.

16:47 Yeah. And I love this term, right? Because we do it not just for salary, but for all kinds of things. Our brain is constantly telling us like, oh, if I could just get this other thing, then I would be happier. But it turns out that our minds are wired to go after stuff that's like just not going to matter. And I think this happens in the work context all the time. Whether it's salary, you know, a new promotion or an accolade at work, the new project, some level on your quarterly report, we're constantly making predictions of like if this happens, I would feel happier. But a lot of those are mis wants. We're kind of just going after the wrong stuff.

17:19 And then how do we find out what we actually need to make us happy? Well, I think that's where the science really comes in, right? You know, we kind of can't rely on our minds. We're kind of in this position where we're like all the things that we think we should go for, all the stuff that we crave might not be doing the work we think it's doing. That's where I think the science and kind of some of the stuff I teach on my podcast in my class come in because it's like there are behaviors and mindset shifts that we can make to feel happier, but our mind doesn't necessarily lead us towards those naturally.

17:48 Okay, next one. Belief number two. The day I get that promotion, that dream house, or the perfect partner, that's when I'll finally live happily ever after.

17:59 Boop. Not not not true. This is a fallacy known as the arrival fallacy. I like to call it the like happily ever after fallacy, right? I get that thing and then I'll be happy if I get married, if I get the promotion, and so on. It's just another case of mis wanting. But miss wanting for a really specific thing. We often think that happiness is like a destination. Like get the promotion and then I'll be happily ever after. But of course, happiness is much more like a journey. It's much more changing over time. Soon as you get that good thing that you like, you might just get used to it. And so we got to watch out for these moments of arrival. It again causes us to go for specific things that that aren't really going to make us feel as happy as we think.

18:39 What actually happens when we achieve a big milestone biologically like in our brains?

18:45 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you get the one moment of dopamine, like, oh my gosh, like, you know, I'm like, this is awesome. I get this reward. But remember that that's not an objective measure, right? We're kind of comparing that accolade once we got it to what we thought it was going to be like. And because of miss wanting, because our expectations are so high, often it's not nearly as good as we think. Um, and this is something that researchers like Dan Gilbert call the impact bias. the impact of the good things that we get in life are not going to be as good as we think and they're not going to feel as good for as long as we think. So, it's both in the kind of magnitude of how good we think something is and then in the duration of how long we think that good thing will last and kind of give us pleasure. We're usually biased in both of those.

19:28 Yeah. We always hear that phrase like you've got to enjoy the journey, right? Enjoy enjoy the process. And it kind of goes back to what you had said earlier in terms of like the part of happiness that really matters when it comes to like having goals or like having a fulfilling life. So is there importance in enjoying the journey when it comes to your happiness?

19:51 Yeah, I think so. I mean the journey is where we can get some of these positive emotions, right? Even if the journey is not great, right? Even if those positive emotions don't come immediately, right? You know, think of the last time you really had like a tough project that you're working on, you know, in the job or or like a tough thing that you were trying to learn. You're trying to learn an instrument or some sort of new way to code something. You know, at first that might be really frustrating is you don't understand it. But that moment where you kind of get in the flow or you're learning something, you're getting that positive feeling and then at the end when you kind of finish it, that's the kind of thing that really matters. It's not because you're going to get to some end point of like, you know, turn something in or get a perfect grade or get a perfect quarterly report. It's really those kind of like mini

20:31 challenges where you get those kind of hits of accomplishment along the way. Like that's what we really want to be building towards rather than the sort of big thing at the end.

20:40 Is there any um you know downfall of tying oursel to a goal like in terms of our identity?

20:48 Yeah. I mean I think you know what we don't want to do is like get really caught up in the arrival in specific things like specific accolades again in part because we're mispredicting how good they're going to feel. they're not going to feel as good as we think. I think we're better off kind of tying ourselves to the journey. In fact, several researchers at Stanford have have studied what they call the journey mindset, which is really just taking on this mindset of like, I'm just going to try to be present and pay attention to if how it feels along the way. I'm I'm just going to try to notice these things as we go. And their studies show that in fact you wind up happier if you can focus on the journey rather than the goal at the end. Now, does that mean that we need to be like not goal oriented at all? No, of course not.

21:26 Right? We always have to have goals. The key is just not to get like like messed up in terms of just how much pleasure and how much you put at the end stage. There's a lot of pleasure and happiness to be reaped on the way there. And so you just don't want to leave that on the table.

21:41 Yeah. Let's give an example like let's actually reframe, you know, tying yourself identity to a goal versus tying yourself to the journey of a goal. Like what would be different in the way that we talk about it?

21:53 Yeah. So, let's say like you're really obsessed with getting a promotion, right? Like, oh my god, I just want to get this promotion at work. So, I get this, you know, new salary, right? Um, tying yourself to that goal is not great, right? Cuz first of all, you're tying all your happiness to like whether you get it or not. Maybe you'll get it great and but not that great because as we just talked about with hedonic adaptation, it won't feel as good as you expect for very long and you're probably expecting it to be really awesome cuz you're mis wanting and all of a sudden, oh, it's not as great as I thought. So even if you get it, it's a let down. But of course you might not get it, right?

22:27 And then you know there's no happiness. If anything, if you're expecting to get it, now you feel terrible because you have this comparison point of getting it and now you feel kind of crappy cuz like I didn't get there. Um and we see this so much in so many different studies that have looked at kind of field cases where people don't get what they're expecting. Um one of my favorite ones happens not in the work context but in sports. Researchers look at Olympic athletes and what happens when they get different medals. You know, so you get the gold medal, best in the world, you feel super happy. What happens when you get the silver medal? It's not that you feel slightly less happy. In fact, you're showing like like visible signs of emotions like sadness, uh, deep pain, contempt, right? Like you're showing emotions that aren't just like a little bit less happy. You're showing actively terrible negative emotions. Why? It's

23:15 not cuz you didn't do well. you're objectively second best in the world, but because you set this expectation of like only gold is going to matter now you feel terrible, right? You know, so maybe you didn't get the promotion, but you did really well and your boss was like, you know, we couldn't pick everyone, but you know, now we're going to get a salary raise even though you don't get their promotion. It's like none of those things will feel good just because you were so focused on this one thing, right? That's if you focus on, you know, the goal at the end. What if you focus on the journey? Well, now you're paying attention to what it feels like to learn things along the way, to push through the probably many tiny challenges you have to do to get there, right? You have time to be present and notice what's happening. So many studies show the importance of presence and just kind of noticing flow when you're going

23:57 through things. You get to kind of enjoy the parts of it that are kind of most of what it is as opposed to the one moment where you get the big email that you know something great came through. And so if you can find ways to enjoy that journey, you'll wind up being a lot happier overall. That makes a lot of sense. So maybe some of the things that we could tell ourselves is like, you know, I'm I'm I'm somebody who's like a problem solver or I'm a I'm a hard worker or so. It's more about like who you are and the traits that you have and the things that you do rather than, you know, I'm the VP of whatever.

24:33 Yeah. And I think what you want to do in that is really find the things that allow you to show off the things that you value. Um there's some lumbly work by the Wharton Business School professor Amy Rzninsky who talks about what she calls job crafting. And so this is thinking of your job not in terms of a particular job description, but thinking of your job in terms of the way it allows you to exercise some of your like strengths, some of your virtues, right? I get to execute humor or leadership or bravery or curiosity or I get to like learn and I really love learning. I get to appreciate beauty. I get to show my integrity, right? like I get to kind of show off my social intelligence or my empathy or kindness, right? Like these are all kind of values that we have. Um, and in fact, we kind of differ in how much those things mean to us. Her work finds that if you can kind of redescribe your job and even put more into your job

25:23 where you're executing those values, you wind up more likely thinking your job is a calling. You wind up happier at work and your supervisors think you're performing better on your regular job description because you're bringing in these kinds of values that matter to you. Um, and I love her work so much because she studies job crafting not in probably some of the many, you know, interesting like young professional careers that you talk about on this podcast. She studies job crafting in hospital janitorial staff workers, you know, so these are people who are like mopping the floor in a hospital and so on, but she finds some of them like find ways to bring in their strengths. You know, they'll bring in humor and chat with a patient and, you know, that's what makes them want to come to work in the morning because they get to execute that strength or they'll be uh really into creativity, right? And then

26:07 they'll, you know, every day at work we'll like move the plants and the paintings around that like they don't really have to do for their job, but like it lets them bring a little creativity into the work that they do. And that means, you know, the mopping and the linen and all the stuff they have to do, they do that better. And so I think this is a thing that we forget about the journey. It's like the journey is a real opportunity to execute all this stuff that just makes us feel alive and good when we're doing it, but we forget and leave on the table real opportunities to do that more often.

26:36 I love that. I love that concept of of job crafting. Okay, belief number three. If I keep booking vacations, shopping sprees, and fancy dinners, I'll stay blissfully happy forever. Big fallacy. I think this is confusing the importance of like spending money to get happiness, right? We assume that buying stuff is going to make us a little bit happier, but in practice, it's just not going to make us as happy as we think. Um, money can give us a little bit of happiness, but we tend to need to spend it on other people rather than ourselves. Um, this is the fallacy that we kind of like I often call it like the treat yourself fallacy, right?

27:17 We think if we just spend on ourselves, we'll wind up feeling happier. But in fact, actually spending on other people and doing nice things for others winds up influencing our happiness more than we think. And I think this is something that we forget at work too, right? Um, we're often at work out for our own individual success and individual performance, but giving a nod to a colleague, expressing gratitude to a colleague, you know, asking for help where a colleague can shine and and help us out a little bit. Um, those are all ways to not only make other people kind of feel good in the world. They're ways to make ourselves feel good, too.

27:51 I've heard you speak about this concept of savoring. when when something good happens, how can we actually stretch that joy a bit?

28:00 Yeah. And this is one of the reasons that buying stuff doesn't make us feel so happy is like, you know, we'll buy ourselves, I don't know, like a nice fancy latte the other day. I just got like a, you know, super hot like oh, you know, with the little sprinkles of cinnamon and all this stuff, but then I like slammed it back while I was like reading my email. I was like, wait, I just like slugged that thing and didn't even I wasn't even present to notice it, right? And so savoring is the act of fighting back at that, right? you know, when I bought that latte, I could think, "Oh, let me focus on this. How does this taste?" You know, how warm is this? Oh, it's so creamy. How would I describe this to someone? It's really the act of taking time to notice so that you can enjoy the good things. And I think this is something that we need to do on the job more often because, you know, in hustle culture life, we're doing a

28:43 million things at once. And we feel like, oh, we're just getting the hit of productivity. I'm doing more. But again, it's a moment where you're kind of leaving opportunities for pleasure on the table just because you didn't take time to like notice the good things that are going on. So take a break, you know, walk outside, notice the pretty weather, you know, sip your latte and notice it. All of these things are acts of savoring which can make the good experiences that you purchase in life or or or have the time for in life feel a little bit better.

29:11 Yeah. Um, you had mentioned hedonic adaptation earlier and I kind of want to dig deeper on this. Can you also adapt to things like relationships and what are some of the things that we need to look out for in terms of things in our life that we might take for granted and later regret that we did that?

29:32 Yeah, that's a terrible thing about hedonic adaptation is we pretty much adapt to everything um all the good stuff in life and that includes our relationships, right? You know, you meet a new co-orker who you really love when they first come in. You kind of appreciate them. Oh my god, this person has my back this week. That was so nice, right? But then you kind of just get used to it, right? That great boss that you really, oh my gosh, I'm so glad this person took over for my other boss. Great at first, but then you kind of stop noticing it. Even worse, maybe in our personal relationships, right?

30:01 You have the, you know, a great marriage, you know, that day that you like, you know, have your wedding, everything's perfect and beautiful, and you're really like, "Oh my god, I love you. I love you." But, you know, 2 years in, 3 years in, it just kind of you just kind of get used to it. It's not that anything's gotten bad. It's just that you stopped getting the same pleasure out of stuff that's good. And this can be really problematic for relationships because it means like you're not enjoying the stuff that really is objectively still good. Um, but there are ways we can do better with that. You know, you mentioned savoring and savoring is something that you really can do, you know, in a marriage, right?

30:34 just go back to, you know, your partner's looks of like, oh my gosh, I do love my husband's smile or, you know, he just has like, you know, like a like a cute a cute butt. I love when he I love the way he looks in that shirt or just something silly. You just take time to some time to notice the good parts again. Um, but there's also something we can do in terms of expressing gratitude, right? To notice um what what we're thankful for about our sparses, the fact that they're blessings in our lives. And I think this is something that the research show has shown can be really powerful. In fact, couples who express gratitude to one another wind up having much higher significantly higher marital satisfaction. And so, you know, just think about thanking your spouse. You know, um you thank you for emptying the dishwasher. Thank you for being there.

31:15 Um you're a blessing in my life. It it sounds cheesy, but those things wind up changing our mindset so our brains can notice the stuff that's really good about our relationships.

31:25 Mhm. Something else that's been on my mind as I've been studying you is this idea that nothing really matters when your health goes haywire. Right?

31:35 That's one of the things I think we take most for granted is really our health.

31:40 How can we like be more grateful for our health, be more conscious of the fact that we're healthy and young if we are, you know, and so that,

31:49 you know, we can take care of ourselves and and make sure that we have good health for as long as possible.

31:54 Yeah. Well, I think there's, you know, some ways to kind of break up the fact that we've gotten used to, you know, young health and so on, right? One is this uh strategy of what's called negative visualization, which is just you quickly imagine the opposite of the good thing that's happening in life. You visualize what would happen negatively, like maybe I have pancreatic cancer. You know, eventually I'm going to get old and gray. What would 90-year-old you you tell you today to like do, right? And I think just those quick moments of using your imagination to think about the bad thing can actually make you realize, oh my gosh, I got to get to the gym today or I got to get a little bit more sleep.

32:28 I have to take care of myself, right? Um, and so I think those kind of momentary like like spots where you take time to like imagine the reverse. This isn't like being anxious about your health and kind of being paranoid all the time. This is just taking time to realize like, you know, it didn't doesn't have to be this way. Like this isn't a given. Like you know even the ancients had this idea of momento mori kind of remember that you're going to die right which sounds really morbid but studies show that just the simple act of remembering this can lead to better health behaviors now it can make it easier for you to hit the gym to eat healthier to sleep better and so on. So yeah a little bit of thinking about the possibility that you're not going to stay young and fit forever can remind you to do the stuff that will actually keep you young and fit.

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35:28 Okay, next one. I already know gratitude and exercise are good for me. Knowing it is enough, right?

35:37 Another big fallacy. This is a fallacy that researchers call the G.I. Joe fallacy, which for you young and YAP listeners out there was a a cartoon in the 80s about these kind of army guys called G.I. Joe who would go out there. But um the famous thing about the cartoon is that it ended with this public service announcement where the G.I. Joe's would tell people things like, you know, don't talk to strangers or look both ways when you cross the street and things. And they had this famous tagline where the kids would say, "Thank you, G.I. Joe. Now I know." And they'd say, "And knowing is half the battle." Go, "GI Joe." You have to cut that from the podcast for fair use or something. But but the point is this idea we This is what we often think like knowing is half the battle. I know I'm supposed to be savoring these things. I know I'm supposed to experience gratitude. I know I'm supposed to sleep

36:21 8 hours a night, but that doesn't necessarily translate into you doing it. And so this is where we need to really prioritize actual behavior change. It's one thing to hear this on a podcast. It's another to really commit and, you know, put it into your life, right? Are you going to stick a little reminder in your calendar to notice and savor things? Are you going to give yourself, you know, some time with friends so that you can engage in more social connection? You know, maybe you literally have in your Gcal like time to like, you know, write in your gratitude journal. These are just simple things we can do, but it helps us actually do the behaviors that really matter. It's one thing to know it, but knowing it isn't half the battle. What are some things that you do personally to make sure that you're doing the work that you need to do to be as happy as possible?

37:05 Well, one great thing for me is that I have like a whole classroom of students who are really checking. If I'm being a hypocrite and not like practicing what I preach, that's great. You know, if they see me like, you know, not being savoring and being on my phone all the time, they'll be like, you know, President Santos, I thought you were supposed to, you know, talk to people and stuff. So, yeah. So, it's nice to be the preacher with the congregation of students who are there, you know, looking at whether I practice what I preach. Um, but no, it's hard for me, too. Again, I know this stuff, but it doesn't fall into place unless I really put these things into practice. And so, I think advanced scheduling has been really helpful for me. Like, I literally have time in my calendar for things like rest and engaging and savoring. Um, I also like the hack where whenever you have a free few minutes, that's really a

37:49 nice opportunity to put some of these things into practice. you know, at work and in our, you know, personal lives, there's always things where like something ends a little early. Like a meeting ends early or you're doing some task and you finish it and you have this like 5 10 minutes before the next meeting. For me, those are little great moments of of what the journalist Bridget Schult calls time confetti. These little pieces of time that you could just blow away, but those are really great moments to use for the practices we've just been talking about.

38:14 You know, that's maybe a moment where you just like think of how grateful you are for your spouse and just text them something of like, hey, you know, I just had this five minutes was just thinking, you know, I'm so glad you picked up the kids yesterday. Thank you so much. Or that's the time maybe where you set up some social connection with a friend or just take a moment to like do a deep breath where you can be a little bit present. Um I making good use of these kind of stupid moments that nothing else was scheduled anyway. For me, that's been a big one for making sure I have some time to put these things into practice. Mhm. Yeah. I love that.

38:43 Scheduling is just so important. If it's not, especially for high achievers, entrepreneurs, a lot of the people that listen on to this show, you need to schedule it if you want to make sure you've got time to do it.

38:54 Yeah. Or or make sure you're using the time that you do have. Well, um, one of the things researcher Ashley Willins at Harvard Business School finds is that even though we think we're busier than ever, and this includes like, you know, young people and millennials, like we're less busy than people have been in previous generations. The difference is that our time blocks are broken up in really stupid ways. So 10, 20 years ago, you'd get long free chunks of time. Now, we have free chunks of time, but again, it's that like 10 minutes in between meetings or the 20 minutes here and there or the five minutes when your kid falls asleep early or you you know, you use like AI and you finish your task quickly and you're like, "Oh my god, I just have this random 15 minutes." Those are the time blocks we have. They're there more of them, but they're kind of in smaller chunks, and those are the ones we tend to blow off. So, if you

39:40 talk to a lot of people who say, "Oh, I don't have time." It's like, well, let's add up all the time you spent, you know, screwing around on Instagram in between tasks or, you know, like checking your email, you know, like like refreshing the email four extra times when you already kind of know what's in there, right? Those are the little time confetti moments that you could use for something else. So, I think scheduling get it in your calendar for sure for, you know, type A individuals like the folks that are listening, that's what's going to get it on your calendar. But when you have these open moments, surprise moments, don't blow them because they actually do add up. And so you can use them for productive things, but maybe not productive like for your work things. Maybe that's not like three more emails you answer. Maybe that's really really try to focus on what would be good for you and your mental health.

40:22 Yeah. Curious, why is it that we actually have more time than previous generations? Because to your point, we all think that we are busier than ever, that we're in a rat race. Why is uh why is that not true?

40:36 Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think we have these ways to save our time that we forget, you know, like we can type out an email real quickly. You know, these days we have AI to like help us with all these tasks, right? I think we forget that we've put in all these kind of time savers. Um we forget that they're kind of actually building us more time. But then when we're when we don't use the time productively, it kind of doesn't feel like it. Um this is one of the funniest things I think about this work. I mentioned Ashley will name. She does all this work on what's called time affluence. this kind of subjective sense that you have free time. Usually what's affecting us isn't the objective amount of free time we have. It's the subjective sense of how overwhelmed we are. And those two things don't always match up, right? There's sometimes when like we feel really busy, but if you really went in and looked like, okay,

41:20 how many actual free moments could you carve out? It's going to be more than we think. And so there's all these things we can do to hack the subjective sense of like, oh my gosh, I'm just feeling really burned out and overwhelmed. even if you can't objectively open up more free time.

41:35 That's so true. You always Everybody knows that person that just like acts like they never have any time

41:41 to do anything whether they're like let's say they're like a mom and like a new mom for example. That's like a a typical

41:49 uh I know they don't have a lot of time because it's really hard being a new mom, but I feel like a lot of people like get very overwhelmed with um you know like a new responsibility or something and then they feel like they have absolutely no time for anything else.

42:04 Yeah. And I think you really need to get creative about seeing these little you know time confetti pieces around. You're like, "Oh man, that's a little piece of time confetti that I could use." Well, again, not to like add more to your plate and add more hustle. Like I think that's the time that you use to to rejuvenate. You know, we know anyone who does fitness knows the importance of rest in terms of like performance like you know when you're running or like if you're playing pickle ball or something like we talk about these ideas of active rest or you have to kind of scale back but we forget the importance of active rest in hustle culture that there you know the studies show that you actually perform better if you allow yourself to take some time off and to sleep if you just feel a little bit more time affluent. And so I think you know if we want to perform better on the job we need to take this more seriously and

42:51 really build in more time for active rest for our work performance too. I remember I interviewed Laura Vanderam a long time ago and she talks about doing like a time audit and actually like looking to see like how much time are you actually spending scrolling on social media. How much time are you spending just I think she calls it like wandering uh where you're just like

43:13 doing nothing like just literally doing nothing and like pacing around the house or like whatever you're doing. And these little pockets of time if you rearranged your schedule could enable you to start a side hustle or to learn a new skill or do something that's actually going to really advance your life rather than just wasting away the time because you're not conscious of where you're spending that time.

43:33 Yeah. And I think you know not being intentional has a real cost, right? like that that seven minutes that you putter away like that could be like you know the 7-inute New York Times workout like that could be a 7 minute meditation period which is like you know huge if you've never meditated before and so I think what we often do is like we don't want to really admit that it's free time like or we just think it's not that much so we kind of blow it off but it can be really useful if you can find and harness those kind of moments of free time um one of the one of the hacks that I do because I'm very prone to like you know if this if this conversation ends a little very early, I'm totally going to feel the need to like, oh, I'm going to check my email now or something. But it's like, I just checked my email an hour ago. Like, I'm probably not going to learn anything new. But it's helpful to use that 5 minutes for something

44:16 really restful. And I queued up like on you can do this on YouTube or there's like little apps of like these little 5 minute like chair yoga like like sessions. And so if I get five minutes, even if I'm kind of like, you know, on calls all day and sitting at my desk at work, it's like, oh, I'm going to do this five minutes to like breathe and stretch and take a breath and and I can't tell you the difference that makes going for the next, you know, if I just blew off those five minutes with email, I wouldn't feel any more productive. I wouldn't feel like rested and ready to go for the next meeting. But 5 minutes of just like simple breathing and stretching, like, oh my gosh, I'm just like so much more energized. So just finding whatever that is for you, whether that's something kind of relaxing or something energizing, you know, put on your favorite like hair metal song and like just kind of like

45:04 bop out to it, you know, step away from your desk and like dance around the room for 3 minutes. I promise you'll go to your next meeting a lot more energized. And but that's just like using this time intentionally rather than just kind of blowing it off and screwing around.

45:17 Okay, last belief. As long as I'm doing better than my neighbor or coworker, I'll be happy. It's about winning the race.

45:26 Social comparison bias, right? Um I think we assume it's winning the race waste, but really obviously don't you just objectively want to be doing better in terms of your time? I think the other thing we forget is that our social comparison isn't exactly under our control. You know, lots of studies show that our reference points just kind of go ballistic. In other words, who we're comparing ourselves to just kind of happens automatically. So, as soon as you learn of somebody who's prettier than you or has a better salary than you or a better car than you, you just pay attention to that. Um, and like, you know, our brains never find the person who's doing worse than us. They're are like really on the lookout for people that are doing better than us. Um, I saw this uh back in the day. I was doing some consulting with a a basketball team. I won't say which one it is, but I was kind of walking through like, you

46:11 know, what's your social comparison point for, you know, the best salary? you know, they'll say like, "Oh, you know, maybe it's like Steph Curry or something like that." Or, "What's your social comparison point for, you know, the most three-pointers?" It's like, "Oh, it's Steph Curry." It's like, "What's your social comparison for like what's the best height to be in the NBA?" And like, nobody said Steph Curry cuz he's kind of on the shorter side. You know, they're saying like, "Oh, Taco fail" or something like that. It's like, "Well, why isn't he your comparison point for height? Like, you would have beat him on height." And they're like, "Oh, we don't we don't even think of him for that." And that just shows like how our brains work, right? we find the one person who makes us feel crappy on whatever metric we happen to be thinking about at the time. And so yeah, this bias of like as long as I do better than

46:50 others, I'll feel good. There's probably going to be somebody out there that are doing that's doing better than you. You know, unless you're I don't even know who the richest person is right now, Elon Musk today or whether it's Larry Ellison or whoever it is, like unless you're him, you're not going to feel good, right? There's always going to be a second place uh in life. So yeah, finding ways to notice your objective changes, how you're doing better than you were doing before. That's a way to harness comparison to to feel a little bit better about your happiness.

47:17 What are some of the things that you tell your students to do to stop being in this comparison trap, especially with social media and things like that?

47:25 Yeah, I mean, a big one is to try to get off social media if that's the kind of thing that makes you feel like a little bit less than. And for so many of my students, it is right. who's getting the best internships, who's doing the best had the best vacations or getting the best kind of parties or great like just that's just the kind of stuff we see on social media. And I think in the workplace it can kind of be similar. You know, when was the last time you felt kind of crappy about your own ability to take a good vacation? You know, if you're me, it's like the last time you saw like your friends pictures on Facebook or some like gorgeous thing someone was doing on Instagram. And so I think the key is not necessarily to like lose all technology and social media.

48:02 The key is to notice how it makes us feel. And if you feel that envy bug creeping up whenever you're on these platforms, that's usually a signal that you might need to step away a little bit. You know, you probably won't lose the ability to get the information if you just kind of hang back ever so slightly. So, um, another thing I tell them to do is like, you know, we're prone to find comparisons that make us feel bad, but for most of us, there are comparisons that make us feel really good, you know, and the sad thing is if you look out in the world, there's probably folks who are doing much worse than you when it comes to their job security, when it comes to their safety, you know, when it comes to politics, right? And so, not like you want to fill your feed with bummer stuff, but sometimes it's helpful to kind of see those negative situations and remind yourself, wait, I've been complaining

48:48 about this stupid thing at work, but actually it is not that bad. Yeah, love that advice. Okay, so let's talk about rewiring. This is something that you talk about a lot, rewirement. What do we need to know in terms of how that plays out with our happiness?

49:05 Yeah. So rewirements are just practices that we can do to rewire our happiness. And just the fact that we can rewire our happiness is an important thing that I think we need to take on. You know, so often we assume our happiness is our circumstances or our money or maybe it's just genetically built in. But what the studies show is that you can impact your happiness with a little bit of work and changes. And that's what the requirements are. They're practices that are there to kind of help us do a little bit better. And they tend to kind of have three different flavors. Some of the requirements are really about changing your behaviors. You know, we've talked about some of these things already. Things like getting a little bit more free time, getting some social connection, kind of taking time to notice and savor, right? Those are all ways we can behave differently when it comes to happiness. Um, but there are

49:49 also requirements that are about changing our thought patterns. So, feeling a little bit more grateful, taking a little bit more time for presence, um, stopping that that strategy of beating yourself up all the time, right? Those are thought pattern changes that we can use to feel a little bit better. Um, and then finally, there are requirements that have to do with our emotions. Can you seek out more positive emotions? And can you take time to kind of accept and regulate the negative situations and negative emotions in your life? Um, the flavor of these and what the the science shows is that if you take time to engage in these kinds of requirements, you'll wind up feeling significantly happier. And so we kind of put them in the syllabus for my students. they're given these like homework rewirement activities that they're supposed to do throughout the semester.

50:33 What do you find is the hardest thing to rewire ourselves to do? What is the biggest challenge people have?

50:39 For sure, for my like Taipe Yale students, and I'm guessing for the listeners of this podcast, it's a lot about rewiring your thought patterns. Um, the biggest one is our perfectionism and our like kind of self-criticism. I think we have this kind of mistaken like drill sergeant theory of our brains. were like, "If I just scream at myself all the time and really push myself and and enact these like completely over-the-top standards, then I'll just do better in life, right?" Um, I think we know that that's not necessarily going to make us feel good, but I think it we think it's going to make us perform better, but research by folks like Kristen Nef and others have gone out and studied this and they find nope, lo and behold, doesn't make you perform better. You actually procrastinate more.

51:21 you're more likely to do worse because you're just feeling anxious in most settings because you're beating yourself up on the inside. Turns out that pushing ourselves like so hard that we have impossible standards. It's not really actually good for performance. Much better strategy is one of self-compassion of kind of just being kind to yourself, treating yourself like a friend. And I think we don't like especially kind of like driven people don't like self-compassion because they confuse it with self-indulgence. They think it's like, "Oh, I'll just like let myself off the hook." But that's why I like defining self-compassion as treating yourself like you'd treat a friend. Because if you had a good friend that was like really screwing up, that really wasn't putting their all in, I hope you wouldn't scream at them like a drill instructor, but I hope you'd get like curious and like problem solvy

52:06 about like, "Okay, I think you can do better than this. What can we do to fix this? Like, what can we do to figure this out? What can we kind of figure out what's holding you back?" Right? And that's really different than just being like, "You suck. Like, why aren't you doing this?" You know, like, and so this is self-compassion. It's like treating yourself like like you're a coach, like you're a good friend who cares about the performance, but is going to care about performance in like a reasonable way. And all these studies show that that is the key to performing better. Um, it's the key to actually succeeding at work, to not procrastinating over time. It makes you a better team member at work because if you're compassionate with yourself, then it's really easy to be compassionate and kind of problem-solving mindset and coach mindset with your employees and your other teammates at work. It also is

52:49 super helpful in relationships. It's a way to be nicer to your kids and your spouse and you just feel better, which we know also helps people perform better. So that's that's the biggest one for I think my students and my guess is like a lot of the folks listening. if you're prone to like, you know, hustle, hustle, hustle, never give yourself a break. Um, you know, perfectionism at all costs, like if you can just kind of lighten up and just try to talk to yourself more like a friend, all the studies show that you'll of course feel better, but maybe more surprisingly, you'll probably perform better, too. H um so I was unhappy in the last couple of years because I'm 100% Palestinian and all this stuff was happening in the world and it was really impacting me especially like the first year that it happened

53:40 and um I was struggling because my life I'm so blessed. I've got this huge company. I've got this top podcast and like you know great relationships. So like my life was actually really happy, but then I was like very unhappy about this like external situation that I had no control over.

53:56 And the only way that I was able to get out of that unhappiness was I actually started a charity project and I started I was like listen I just need to educate people. I brought other people who were also struggling together and we created this like documentary project and social media channel and like then suddenly you know I was still very unhappy about everything but at least I felt like I was contributing and making a difference and it was called it's called fourpiece media is is what I created.

54:23 So um what is it about volunteering and doing things for other people that actually can make us more happy? Yeah, I think this is another bias that we have that our happiness is all about us. It's like a treat yourself bias that like you know what I want is like me me my salary, my good things in life, my positive emotion. But all the studies show the people who self-report being happiest are the people who are the most other oriented. So controlled for income, people who donate more money to charity wind up being happier than those that don't. Right? controlled for the amount of free time that people have.

54:57 People who spend that free time volunteering wind up being happier than those who spend it, you know, doing kind of selfish things, right? That the key is that like other people matter a lot for our happiness. And that's other people like our friends and family members. It's people who are in need across on the other side of the world, right? Just doing for others winds up making us happier. But we absolutely don't realize that. You know, when you have a crappy day at work, it's very easy to think like, "Oh, I'm just going to buy myself this little treat. like I'm going to go out for a drink myself or I'm going to get a massage or a manicure or something, right? But like actually what would make you happier is to spend that equivalent amount of money on a friend. Like buy a man a massage for your coworker or donate that money to people in need somewhere around the world. Like that's not what our minds

55:40 predict, but that's what the research really shows. Um, a second thing that especially the the kind of thing that you did can can do for happiness, which I think is so important right now, is that what you find is that we often think of hope as like something that you have or you don't have. Like you're either a hopeful person or not. But a lot of the studies show that hope is something that we build through our actions. So, like if you're feeling hopeless and you take action, you know, you donate money to a cause you care about, you do something to help, you know, the crappy thing that's happening in the world, like what happens is not just that you do something good for the world, you wind up starting to feel more hopeful because you took action. It's this kind of interesting virtuous cycle.

56:19 So, if you're feeling hopeless about whatever it is that's going on in the world, the way to fix that is to actually do something about that. Um, this is true for lots of things that make us unhappy. Loneliness is another one of these things. Like often when people are feeling lonely, they think like, "Oh, I need to wait for a friend to reach out to me." But a really fast way to overcome loneliness is to do something nice for somebody else. Reach out to somebody else who you think might be lonely. And what happens is you wind up feeling less lonely. So, so I think that's exactly what you did with your charity, which sounds awesome, right?

56:50 You're taking action to build your hope and you're also spending your time and your energy on people who are less fortunate than you, which winds up making you feel good.

57:00 Um, I I love this conversation. I I want to end our conversation talking about some of the past conversations that I've had on the podcast about happiness and some of your perspectives on that. So, um, somebody who I spoke with, um, not necessarily about happiness, but we talked about young men in this country, and I talked about that with Scott

57:20 Galloway, and, uh, we were talking about how men nowadays are like more lonely. Uh, more women are entering college, women are making more money, men are actually, especially young men, making less money, less less men are actually graduating from college. They're not getting married as often. And so there's a big epidemic in terms of unhappiness with men and we see that translate into shootings like we just saw with Charlie Kirk for example, right?

57:50 What is your perspective on happiness and young men and some of the things that they specifically need to look out for?

57:58 Yeah. Well, I mean I agree with you that this really is a crisis right now. You know, especially if you look at things like sense of purpose in young men, loneliness in young men, so on. Again, we're seeing young men suffering at rates that we've never seen them suffering since we've been taking data on this, right? So, I think we need to take action and try to fix this. Um, and I think that this is the kind of thing that if you're feeling that way as a young man, you can do something about yourself, right? Um, we were just talking about how loneliness you can fix if you just kind of reach out to someone and try to help. Um, I think one of the problems for young men right now is that the self-improvement advice you often get on different podcasts, not this podcast, but on other podcasts is kind of like, well, go for yourself, fix yourself, make your bed, you know, get to the gym, work out, and so on. It's

58:45 not to say those things don't work. It's just to say that you'd actually get more kind of bang for your time buck if you were focused a little bit more on other people. I think a lot of the solutions that are presented to young men are very individual solutions like you know treat yourself, do yourself, you you you studies show that like you're going to get so much more out of it if you think about connecting with other people and doing for other people. And so I would say if you're in that position really reach out to someone, ask like how you can help a cause that you care about or someone else that you care about. If you're feeling lonely, pick in your office or your friend group or your life the loneliest person that you could think about and just send them a text or email just to check in. Like this seems to be the path out. Um there's a really interesting uh new sociologist book on

59:31 the manosphere that kind of digs into these kind of internet cultures where people, you know, are really like, you know, angry about women and like very lonely young men. And they say what an irony it is because these folks in these communities are often like entering these internet communities because they want to get community because they want to get belonging often because they want to also like help other people, right? These are communities where people on forums are giving advice to other people like really helping the people out there. But then the advice they give is like you know work on your own jaw or like work out or make your own bed. It's all these individual solutions and I'm like oh my gosh there's such an obvious way to feel better here and it's about connection. And it's about being more other oriented.

1:00:10 Yeah. I I feel like um that is definitely the solution when it comes to loneliness. It's like be the glue that brings everybody together. Be the instigator. If you want to get invited to the party, throw the party.

1:00:22 You know, create the group, the organization. Um I wish more people would do that. Okay. So I spoke with Gretchen Rubin quite a few times and her whole thing is outer order inner calmer is what she talks about and the importance of being organized in your environment and how that actually translate

1:00:41 translates internally. Uh do you align to that thought? Yeah, definitely. I think we often forget how much our spaces are affecting our happiness. Um even just simple things like how much they're affecting our attention, right? you know, if your workplace just like has a ton of clutter and everything around you, there's studies showing that like, you know, subtly your eyes are being attracted to that and it becomes harder to focus on the tasks that you really want to be focused on when you're doing it. And so, yeah, I think it really is important to kind of assess your environment. Maybe do a little bit of a audit of your spaces and try to think about what you can do to make things a little bit less cluttered, a little bit more less complicated. I think another thing we can do for our spaces to make them better, and this is something I know Gretchen talks about a lot, is to kind of hack our sensory experience. You

1:01:28 know, often if you're if you're like me and you're having a bad day, you're like, "Oh my god, I want to like eat something, you know, to feel better." But we forget we can use all kinds of senses to feel better. You know, what would it do to like get a nice, you know, a nice smelling candle or a nice smelling thing or something that feels soft, right? Even if it's like soft socks or like a softer chair or something like that. like curating your sensory experience can be a powerful way to feel a little bit better. And so this is a hack I use now if I have some like, you know, project at work that feels like a slog. Like there's some paper I have to edit that I don't feel like I'm like I'm going to put on some nice fuzzy socks. I'm going to put on some soothing music. I'm going to like, you know, have like that soft, you know, cuddly blanket. Especially we're we're chatting when it's autumn, so it's just starting

1:02:09 to get cold where I am here. I'm like, I'm going to make my sensory experience around doing this paper as comfy as possible and that will give me a little bit of pleasure while I do it. So, yeah, definitely outer spaces matter a lot and they can definitely change our inside experience.

1:02:24 I totally notice that if I'm not feeling great, if I'm not my best, my environment gets more messy.

1:02:31 Yes. So, they're they're definitely nonverirtuous cycles that can happen here, too. For sure.

1:02:36 Um, okay, last one. Um, I had Arthur Brooks on the show a few times and one of the things that I never forgot that he told me about was this concept between fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence and that some of the most successful people in the world get really unhappy as they grow older because they're really trying to chase their fluid intelligence. That's when they're, you know, under, you know, 40 years old. They can think really quickly. They can innovate. They can build. They're really like quick as a whip. and they try to chase that until they're, you know, they die basically.

1:03:07 And when they get older, 60, 70, they can't keep up anymore. But really, they need to flip the switch and start teaching younger people and being more of like a mentor and a teacher and embracing crystallized intelligence if they want to be happy. Do you prescribe to this?

1:03:24 Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's a little bit about kind of what's happening with your own intelligence, right? You know, which is kind of shifting around and kind of honoring that. But I think what Arthur is talking about is the act of doing for others, right? It's like getting ahead in your career and feeling good about your career by making sure you're impacting the next generation. And I think we just don't do this enough. You know, grab any opportunity that you have to mentor folks. And I think that's definitely true if you're on the older side and ending entering the kind of crystallized intelligence phase. But I think it's not something you have to do to wait till then, right? A lot of the benefits of this kind of sharing your knowledge come to you through the act of just being kind of mentory, coaching and kind to the next generation whether that's in your office, in your personal life and

1:04:10 so on. I actually want to do one more with Mark Manson. Okay. So Mark Manson, he talks about the backwards law. So he says happiness isn't about eliminating problems but solving better ones.

1:04:24 Yeah. He says the paradox that the more we chase positive emotions like happiness, the more elusive they become.

1:04:30 Yeah, I see this so much in the young people that I work with at Yale, right? This kind of good vibes only mindset, right? You're kind of chasing this good stuff and and anything feels kind of a little bit crummy, a little bit anxietyprovoking, a little bit sad. You feel like you've done something wrong, like you've kind of failed. And I think that like this just isn't the way to like live a flourishing, productive, successful life, right? A successful life is going to come with pushing yourself and experiencing a bit of discomfort. A successful life is going to come with kind of trying things that you're going to screw up on, which isn't going to feel great, right? And so, I think we got to overcome this sort of good vibes only bias. We need to find ways to embrace the challenge, to embrace that kind of thing because often at the end of that, we wind up feeling a little bit more satisfied, right? you

1:05:17 push yourself and you do the kind of uncomfortable thing now and at the end you're like oh my gosh that was so great. Um, you know, I experience this in the fitness domain all the time where it's like even just this morning I like got up early and I kind of like didn't sleep so well and I was like going to the gym and like five minutes into my workout my brain was just like hate this uncomfortable sucks suck sucks, right? But of course if you push through, you know, minute 15, minute 30, minute 45, I'm like, "Oh my god, my body feels so great. I feel so light and so on." But the problem is if you never push through it, you kind of never get there. And so, yeah, totally agree with Mark Manson on this one. If we're just focused on the positive, we might never get to the challenging stuff that's going to give us, you know, a bigger, richer, positive experience afterwards.

1:06:02 Lori, I feel like we covered so much ground in this interview. So great. It was so good. So, I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests. You can answer from your heart. Doesn't have to be about today's topic or anything that we talked about. So, what is one actionable thing our young and profiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

1:06:22 I think this will be maybe a surprising one, but I think you should ask for help.

1:06:27 You should ask for help because we often don't admit kind of humbly that we need some help, right? And you'll probably get it. The other reason to ask for help is it's a really nice thing to do to someone else. Usually, the person you ask for help kind of feels flattered that you've asked them for some advice or that you want them to help you. And it's also a way to strengthen a relationship. So you're getting some advice that you might need. You're kind of learning something new. You're doing something nice for other people. And you're strengthening a con strengthening a connection that might be really useful for you. And the studies show that when we ask for help, we're often perceived as better. There's this lovely phenomena called the beautiful mess effect that when you seem a little messy, when you seem like you need a little bit of help, people end up liking you more. So, that would be my unexpected thing for young

1:07:12 professionals to do. Ask for more help. It's such a good tip. It's such a good tip, especially for entrepreneurs. Um, okay. And what is your secret to profiting in life? And this can go beyond financial.

1:07:25 Oh, yeah. My secret to profiting in life is prioritizing my time affluence over my wealth affluence. Um, you know, study after study shows if you spend your money to get back more time, you wind up being happier. But it can be so hard to do in the rat race for entrepreneurs to realize that your time is valuable. But that's the spot where you're going to come up with innovation. That's the spot where you're going to get active rest, which is going to be so important for your performance later on. Uh prioritize your time affluence over your wealth affluence.

1:07:56 I love that. Dr. Lori, where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

1:08:01 So, if you want to check out my podcast, it's called the Happiness Lab. Lots of useful tips for young professionals of the kind that we talked about and beyond. And you can learn more about me and my work at dr luris santos.com.

1:08:13 Amazing. I'll stick all those links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today.

1:08:17 Thanks for so much for having me on the show. Yeah, fam. What a phenomenal conversation with Dr. Lorie Santos. She didn't just talk about happiness. She broke down the hidden traps that keep us from feeling it and gave us a playbook to actually rewire our daily lives. One of my biggest takeaways was the concept of mis wanting. That false belief that more money, another promotion, or that next big milestone will finally deliver you lasting happiness. Lori reminded us that the brain is constantly overestimating how good achievements will actually feel, and when the excitement fades, we're left chasing again. The real win is finding out what genuinely fulfills us. Second, I loved her insights on how quickly we get used to the good things in life. That new salary, new car, or even a great relationship eventually becomes our new normal. We take it for granted. And the solution to fight adaptation is by

1:09:09 savoring what we already have. Pausing to notice those small wins, practicing gratitude intentionally and even in the small minutes during the day that you have free time. And finally, Lori made it crystal clear that happiness is not a solo pursuit. time, affluence, authentic connection, and doing for others consistently produces more satisfaction than chasing personal accolades ever will. As entrepreneurs and high performers, we need to ask ourselves not just how much money we're making, but how much time, purpose, and service we're building into our lives. So, Yap fam, here's the challenge I'll leave you with. Stop waiting for happiness to arrive at some future milestone. Start designing it into your everyday routine.

1:09:51 Whether that means thanking a teammate, spending money to buy back time, or simply savoring your morning coffee instead of rushing through it. All right, gang. I'm so glad you tuned into this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. If Dr. Lorie Santos's Insights opened your eyes about happiness, I'd be so grateful if you dropped us a five-star review on Apple, Spotify, Castbox, wherever you listen to the show. Don't just tap the stars. Write us a few words about what resonated with you most. I read every single one of our reviews. I'm addicted to checking our reviews. They fuel me to bring you more of these awesome conversations each and every week. And don't forget, you can watch these entire conversations on YouTube. We're closing in on about 60,000 subscribers. Our videos are going viral. We're pretty new on YouTube. So, make sure you go over there, hit that subscribe button, join the community,

1:10:41 chat in the comments over there. It's a way different experience to watch your podcast and be able to chat with other podcast listeners. I'd also love to connect with you on my personal channels. You can find me on Instagram at Yapw with Hala or LinkedIn. Just search for my name. It's Hala Taha. And of course, before we go, I've got to shout out my amazing production team this week. I want to highlight my guest outreach team. That's Hasham, Fcon, and Joshua. You guys have been absolutely rocking it. Speaking of great guests that we've been getting, Dr. Lorie Santos is somebody we wanted for years, and you guys got her. So, congratulations. And there's so many amazing guests coming up on the show.

1:11:17 You guys have always done an incredible job. So, I'm just so thankful for all that you do and all the amazing guests that you bring on the show. And I'm sure all the listeners are thankful for all your hard work as well. So, thank you for all that you do. Until next time, this is your host, Halataha, aka the podcast princess, signing

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Why Success Won’t Make You Happy! w/ Dr. Laurie Santos"?

In order: 0:00 Norway, The Happiness Lab, Arrival Fallacy, Bottoms Up and the Devil Laughs; 10:00 PipeDrive, Arrival Fallacy, Dan Gilbert, Flush Balm; 20:00 Hedonic Adaptation, Job Crafting, Savoring, Journey Mindset; 30:00 Savoring, Airbnb, Airbnb, Shopify; 40:00 Time Affluence, Time Confetti; 50:00 Self-Compassion, Charlie Kirk, Fourpiece Media, Manosphere; 1:00:00 Crystallized Intelligence, Time Affluence, Mark Manson, Savoring; 1:10:00 Castbox, Hala Taha.

What is mentioned in this Young and Profiting episode?

62 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Savoring, Hedonic Adaptation, Time Affluence, The Happiness Lab, Job Crafting, Time Confetti. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Why Success Won’t Make You Happy! w/ Dr. Laurie Santos"?

The episode runs 1 h 12 min; the transcript is about 15,571 words in 150 timestamped sections.

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