Taking the Exquisite Risk (with Simon Brown)

What is discussed, and when

1. 10:00 – 20:00: Maharaji
2. 1:10:00 – 1:20:00: K-pop Demon Hunters, Perfect Days
3. 1:20:00 – 1:29:35: The Exquisite Risk, David White, Perfect Days, Tara Brock

Notable quotes from "Taking the Exquisite Risk (with Simon Brown)"

• Has been pointing at this unconditional love through who he has connected to through Ramdas's guru Maharaji and he feels this presence of this as unconditional love and so it's…

  about Maharaji · at 16:03

• So, I, kind, of, want, to, give, a, weird shout out now because have you seen K-pop Demon Hunters?

  about K-pop Demon Hunters · at 1:13:32

• Where billions of people are watching it. Sometimes it's something so subtle like Perfect Days. I don't know if you've seen this film.

  about Perfect Days · at 1:19:14

• It there, but what like there's a beautiful term again Tara Brock uses is taking the exquisite risk and that's it, isn't it? That's the risk because the risk is if I show this…

  about The Exquisite Risk · at 1:27:16

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Ram Dass — Person · 5 mentions
• Zubin Demania — Person · 4 mentions
• Maharaji — Person · 2 mentions · first at 16:08
• David White — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:26:48
  You, know,, conditioning, violence,, all, the things. And that's but that's where the as David White says, right the well of grief, like that's where you go to find the gold coins at the bottom.
• Tara Brock — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:27:18
  Yeah., It's, maybe, we, can, kind, of, end it there, but what like there's a beautiful term again Tara Brock uses is taking the exquisite risk and that's it, isn't it? That's…
• Nisargadatta Maharaj — Person · 1 mention
• Tara Brach — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• K-pop Demon Hunters — Book · 3 mentions · first at 1:13:39
• Perfect Days — Book · 3 mentions · first at 1:19:18
• The Exquisite Risk — Book · 2 mentions · first at 1:27:20

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Hi Simon. Hi,, Zubin., So,, hi, everyone., I, just thought I would introduce my guest for today on his channel.

0:08 I, see, what, time, it, is., I, see, what's going on here. Zuben, Demania,, formerly, Zdog, MD,, but, the the subtle scops change to Zuben Demania has, happened, online., Don't, know if, you noticed. That's a deep cut. But, um, so yeah, I wanted to kind of introduce Zubin. He's a very dear friend of mine. So over the last it's been about three years hasn't it? It's been about yeah about three years we have got to know each other walts and all and walked alongside each other on this path through thick and thin actually. Um even though there's an Atlantic Ocean separating the two of us. We um yeah we've seen a fair bit of each other's well of each other you know the depths of each other through the joyous and the most sorrowful you know we've been alongside each other for the passing of dear loved ones and um yeah and the reason I mention this is because this is a joy really to to have you in

1:10 my life as a friend and it's a joy to have you on your own show with me is That's the thing.

1:20 So,, so, Simon,, I, think, um like I was going to introduce you and, I, think, you, just, did., You, you, just introduced Simon by by by how you reflected on our relationship. Like you are one of the dearest people that I turn to when things are getting dark which is pretty much the entire route. Uh and so I we've spoken before on the show. We've had lovely conversations and I just um

1:48 the, the, conditions, arose, that, we're, to talk again publicly, about, whatever, arises., So, it's you're just a joy. I I was telling people on my show on a live show recently that

2:01 there, are, people, that, I, talk, to, that just I have a smile on my face the entire time I'm talking cuz my heart is just open and you are that person that I'm really talking about. It's like oh my god every time just a big smile. So let's uh share this big smile in the fabric of reality with uh with all the things.

2:20 Beautiful., So, beautiful., What, what, a gift e um and yeah I mean one more thing is that um I feel lucky to have you as a friend on the path and I think it points to something that we all need actually is this deep um uncompromising spiritual friendship. Not uncompromising as in we don't compromise with each other. Um but uncompromising in that we we show we we show up for each other unconditionally you know and you've done that so many times so many times for me that I cannot in words express the gratitude um that I have but actually I can see how important it is not just for me as a human being and a and a friend but also as a spiritual practitioner you We need people alongside us as kind of like this loving reflective mirror, don't we?

3:19 Because I think without that, no matter how awake it seems delusion is kind of like hiding in the awakeness, you know, we need that uh relationship in order to show us, oh and this and this and this and you know keep seeing, keep seeing, keep relating let it unfold. And you've been that for me. So, yeah.

3:40 Nice, work. beautiful that that's exactly what you are here. Like every time I'm spinning off the rails into the void or I'm uh flirting with nihilism or I'm going in the neoaded advite and uh death spiral of uh there's nothing happening, nothing to do morality, compassion, what is that? Simon will be like, "Hey, you fancy a chat?" and I'll get on the phone and I'm smiling ear to ear and my heart is blown open and I realize it's all just radiant love. Like without that

4:12 none, of, this, makes, sense., Like, I recently was quoting Nisarodatada on on a live show and you know he says the mind creates the abyss and the heart crosses it. And I think that's a beautiful way to talk about this whole journey is like ultimately it comes back to this this centerless center that just and when you and I talk it's like that that just kind of manifests naturally.

4:36 Um, it's, it's, like, an, emergent, property of these two apparent beings, you know and you're all the way in the UK and I'm here in the US and yet it's like there's this absolute spaceless timeless

4:48 Oh,, yeah. thing, that, happens, when, we, talk., Yeah. Yeah, this intimacy, isn't it? There's this kind of like known felt sense of intimacy that is I mean we've discussed this before. There's an useness to it as well which is more than a sum of its parts. So there's the intimacy in my experience if there is a my experience but you know there's an intimacy felt here and I know there is there for you but then there is a a relational intimacy that feels well it's particular. it it arises in yeah like in collaboration with each other and I think that actually that intimacy is always the case for all beings however um the degree to which we're able to feel that arise and allow it to blossom is well it's stymied by different things normally delusion or fear or like anxiety

5:41 but, actually, for, some, reason, we've, been able to just really take some risks with our relationship, you know, with our friendship, just say, well, let's just try stepping into this unknown together. And I think very quickly that blossoming aspect, it it rewards the risk. You know, if if we are willing and curious and open when we take that step the open, willing, curious heart, it kind of blossoms further and further. there's this beautiful um positive feedback that goes on and it's reciprocal between I think between all beings but actually like well I mean in our instance that that seems to be what's happening. So yeah, but I think that's possible for everybody. And this is why I said it's um it seems really crucial that this deep spiritual friendship, not this deep spiritual friendship, I mean spiritual friendship across the board is an aspect of people's lives because um I don't think there's any way to be

6:42 free without it. Actually, I think cuz what is it? If you're if you're free alone, is that freedom? When are we ever alone? Is there a human experience that isn't in relation? Like, I've never had one. Even when I think I'm having one there's the infinite sathe of conditions of the universe unfolding around me. It's like the It's like the least alone you could possibly be. Yet, we sit in front of our YouTube screens and we type non-duality and we we we go in in in in we say, "Who am I and what is this?" And I'm not saying that's wrong, but there can be this insular movement of separation that pulls us away from the world. And it's as much about I think it's as much about moving into the world as well as kind of letting go of the things of the world. It's Yeah. I mean it's difficult to talk about actually isn't it? um that but but it there's there's a flow a movement of dancing with conditions whilst knowing we are

7:46 not those conditions or, something that's, it, that's, it, yeah, so, so, man, okay this dance of relativity where we are not in a vacuum we can't be it's all interdependent happening and then the the deep knowing that there's really nothing happening there's not time and space and relation and all of that simultaneously is inhabited and so then what happens is you go from uh hell is other people which I mean that is a real when you're suffering through kind of feeling through the delusive sense of separation that manifests those relationships can manifest as hell is other people what does this person think of me what did I say to this person that now I'm suffering in regret guilt shame unworthiness all the things in relation to this apparent other being that now is creating a kind of torture chamber. But what's creating it? The delusion, my view that this person is other than myself or other than what they actually

8:51 are. And so what you're pointing at is when there is this relaxation and insight and seeing delusion when delusion is there the relationship naturally becomes one of this indescribable not tuness where yeah no we're not separate but also we're totally particular we're totally different

9:11 and, that, and, that, is, a, joyous, thing, and there's no validation seeking there's no and yet validation can arise like I feel so validated talking to Simon and yet I'm If that didn't wasn't the case, it'd be totally fine. It's just what's showing up. And it's absolutely beautiful. And and recently I did a video talking about people were talking about existential loneliness on this path. Like how the opposite can be felt where like I'm the only thing in existence or there's nothing in existence. And that collapses ultimately into the into the interdependent uh manifestation like what you're pointing at where loneliness becomes I said loneliness becomes loveliness like it is just made of this thing like loveness

9:55 turn, into, such, a, hippie, zubin, it's brilliant I, know, you, know, I'm, like, they, call, me baba z dog

10:02 I, mean, I, guess, you've, got, the, look, a little bit haven't you just need to kind of grow a very wispy long beard I know. I can't do it. I don't have enough testosterone. You know, I need to listen listen to the new, you know, RFK Jr. uh a recommendation to just shoot myself full of testosterone. Um, well, I'm not going to go down that road, but um

10:25 yeah,, I, mean,, I, I've, really, been, vibing a little bit about I've been feeling a little bit about what you've been sharing recently cuz it's just so nice that you're you're heeding this invitation towards love. There's a lot of like you're putting things in the world which seem to be about this heartopening loving recognition of experience. Um, and that's just nice. It's nice to see, you know, because like you said with that there's a relaxation. There's less of a trying to be a certain way and more of allowing the way to to to be us to show like to to manifest, to interact, to engage, and it quite naturally creates connection, I think.

11:11 Um, and I think that's probably what you're seeing maybe in the responses to the videos that you're making is that actually when that movement of heart is open and generous, it's less restricted and constrained, then the world kind of vibes and resonates with it just very very naturally. It's almost like well it feels like the default state actually. It's like it feels like this is what we are you know this loving movement of generous connection that's actually fundamental not like there's this found solid foundation like well it becomes impossible to talk about doesn't it but like this this ground of loving being from which everything can manifest that can be experienced and and I just find it so beautiful that no matter how deluded we are along the path it doesn't take much for us to resonate with that loving, generous intent. You know, just look at the fact that nearly everybody has a friend. Nearly nearly everybody

12:09 has, one, person,, at least, one, person, that they naturally would call a friend. There is no reason for that. There's no like I mean, you could talk about evolution and, you know, connecting, but that's still a movement quite naturally in a world that we see as divided, a world that we're told is at loggerheads or war is a threatening place. This is what the media tells us all of the time. Or just walk through a park and you will see families and friends everywhere naturally just happening. Just connection all of the time. All of the time. All of the time. And yet the the mindset of the deluded ego which is normally rooted in greed, especially if you think about the messages we receive you know, through media. It's like, no that's not actually what's going on.

12:53 They're your enemy. Hate each other. And even with that, we can't stop connecting. And it's just so beautiful. I think like it was a big change in my life once I was able to actively look for that. You know, I when I stopped believing that the world was a dangerous place and that everybody was out to get each other and that everybody was a threat, when I started to actively look, well, is there any evidence for connection? Can I see love in the world? And as soon as you start looking, you don't have to look very far. It's like it's really really apparent. And it's not just human, which is quite interesting as well. You start seeing it saturated.

13:36 I mean, you could easily say in animals but I would also say I start seeing it in just the natural interaction of forces. You know, like if you see the way that the wind licks the tree, you get this. I sometimes get the same flavor of love as when a friend waves goodbye, you know, it's it's so it's kind of indescribable that feeling. But yeah, like if we in tune ourselves towards recognizing love and connection we can be surprised. I think we'll be surprised how much we see in the world. So, uh, it's really funny, Simon, like as you were saying that, um the words were coming out of your mouth and I was feeling what you were pointing at and I was, it was so strange. Like here was predicting what the next word was because it was my word. It was very oddly connected. Like, I'm like, now we're going to talk about how it shows up in things. Now, we're going to talk about

14:35 this., And, it, it, that, synchronicity,, that connection, I I really think it is the default natural

14:44 state, that, again, the, matrix, of, social stuff conditions us otherwise. No, even altruism is selfish. Even

14:52 um, everybody's, out,, you, know,, to, get you. You need to get yours because the world is a separate and dangerous place. And believe me, I I spent good bit of my life uh in that mindset. It's almost a paranoia uh and and a kind of safety seeking and and when you've had trauma and things like that too, it's more

15:12 obvious, that, there's, a, a, feeling, of unsafety of not unresource and that sort of thing. And then though when I feel back to very young um there was this like just like I would I would open like lift a go into the forest, lift a rock, the teeming life underneath. You couldn't hurt any of it. you were just picking up centipedes and they were stinging you and you were loving them and going, "Oh that's okay." I'm putting it back and like it was my fault. Don't worry about it.

15:41 And, uh, that, starts, to, come,, it, starts, to come back. And the thing is, like you said, everybody almost everybody has at least a friend somewhere

15:52 like, these, people,, these, bodhic, sattvas, these compassionate beings, they don't see themselves as that, but they show up in your life at just the right time to point you back. So you showed up, Ishwar has been pointing at this unconditional love through um who he has connected to through Ramdas's guru Maharaji and he feels this presence of this as unconditional love and so it's so funny man I I redisco I've really never read a lot of Ramdas because I thought ah you know the cheesy

16:23 is, the, [ __ ], you every, every, [ __ ], thing, he, says, in, Be Here Now people, act, like, they've, said, it, For, the first time, Ramda said it and he was just bringing it from the east and from these traditions. But he talks about Christ in a way that will make you cry like instantly. It is so beautiful. And he radiates love, but he also talks of the void. He talks of no self. He I mean, and he's like that's all fine. Like that's all this. It's all love. M. So, so everything you think you've encountered in this thing is a pitfall.

17:00 Yeah. It's like, you know, there was an old uh South Park episode where they were lamenting the fact that the Simpsons already did everything like they couldn't they couldn't do anything and like Simpsons did it. Simpsons did it. You might as well just say, you know, Ramdas did it. Anytime you hear Echarolei, if you hear like any non-dual person on YouTube, you go, "No, Ramdas did it."

17:20 Uh,, so, yeah,, it's, a, beautiful, for, people who haven't looked at that stuff. Be here now. Miracles of love, be love now. His later book is just

17:28 so, many, talks, as, well., He's, got, so, many talks that have been recorded. It's that that period in like the I think in the 50s and 60s specifically where they started uh doing tape recordings of like these influential speakers in California. So that's why Alan Watts has got so many of them. So beware of the AI [ __ ] as well. There's a lot of weird AI kind of Alan Water likes. I mean, they might be all right, but yeah, there's so many beautiful talks that I've listened to to them and

18:01 yeah,, I, think, because, they're, popular, as in like they were very popular and they're easy to get hold of. They get given a bit of a short shrift maybe by you know proper spiritual people like oh they're not really spiritual like they are they see clearly. They see really really clearly and they put their money where the mouth is. Especially Randos you know, like he spent so many years offering paliotative spiritual connection and care for people on their deathbed, guiding them over the threshold. Like he he held the hands of countless strangers um in a in a heart of love as they died.

18:41 He just did it. He wasn't a paid position. He wasn't you know that was just it was his service part of his service to the world um yeah of sharing his awake open heart and yeah he's a beautiful being beautiful being and so many wonderful teachings

18:58 he, and, he, um, what, was, beautiful, about him and this is me projecting my own life experience a bit that here's this Harvard professor loses his tenure first embracing psychedelics opens his mind with the psychedelics goes to India surreners at the feet is surrendered at the feet of this guru name Barbara. Yeah.

19:18 Yeah., My, god., And and, his, stories, about, Kareem, are hilarious. Like Karim Noli Baba is just kind of this laughing impenetrable joyous presence. That's kind of it. Like he doesn't he doesn't give like these deep insightful slicing te I mean he does but they're not like these clever things. They're just like these embodied energetic like continual guidance towards truth. Yeah. It's beautiful.

19:49 Yeah., What, um, what, Ramda, says, about, Nim Karoli, they call him Maharaji, like the affectionate term for like a wise king an honorific.

19:58 He, he, would, come, back, and, tell, the stories of the miracles that he witnessed because that's all he could put into words

20:04 but, he, knew, the, miracles, didn't, mean anything. what was there was this energetic non-conceptual this person saw you with unconditional love as you and you fell into it and the the story he tells is when he first met him like he was dragged there against his will and like oh I got to go see my guru by this other hippie American guy this guy Ban Das he goes and climbs up this hill because the Indians are like you have to see this guru and he's like I don't want to see any stinking guru like I want to go back to America this India thing's been a bust like I was trying to figure out why LSD does what it does and no one's been able to tell me. And he goes to the feet of this guru and and and the night before Ramdas had had this vision of his mom who had passed away 6 months ago of like a splenic disease. And

20:49 the, guru, just, looks, at, him, and, says,, you know, you you were thinking of your mother last night. You know, she died of what? Uh spleen. And he had never told anyone. No one there knew that.

20:59 And, what, happened, was, his, mind, went, on tilt. It was like, how can this be? And the way he describes it, it was like those old CIA classics like who has the files? What do you know? What are you involved in? Like all the paranoia just like how do you know this? And then his mind realized there's no possible way. Like there's nothing. And his heart just exploded. He melted into a puddle of tears. And he knew then he's like this is where I surrender. I was surrendered. Not because this guy could read my mind. But what he realized is if he can see that, he can see all of me. all my shame, all my brokenness, all my, you know, horrible things that I think and he still loves me. He's looking at me with this unconditional love and that was it. So beautiful.

21:41 Oh,, Zuben., Yeah,, it's, so, beautiful., It's really moving and Yeah., I, mean,, that, is, beautiful., And, I think there's a couple of things there isn't it? When we like the westerner hears a story like that, the cynical mind immediately says that didn't happen.

21:57 Yes. Just, just, immediately, goes,, "No,, that didn't happen. Ramdas has got no reason to lie about that. Doesn't give him anything. Doesn't get him anything. Like he he says it affectionately because well, yeah, it was part of his journey part of his life. But it's so interesting like you say, you you see that immediate cynicism in the mind to say it's like this materialist reductionist mindset that says, well that's outside of the realms of what I think is possible and what I've been told is possible. Therefore, it's impossible. Um, and the other thing I think that's important to recognize about Ramdas is that so he can give the impression from stories like that that he was just surrendered. He sat at the feet of Karim Nural Baba and his heart opened and blossomed. No, he practiced consistently for decades in a hut

22:47 like, he, you, know, and, that, isn't, to, say that it's it was striving. Actually, it wasn't. The practice was to end the striving ultimately but um he didn't pray for the sudden release by by getting the right pointer. What he did was devote himself to the practice and to to the g his guru and to like guru yoga and he did it. He did the work like he you know meditating nine hours a day like he was I'm not saying everybody needs to do that but I think it's important to realize that I think it's the case for most nearly all people that have had that reside in this deep openhearted presence there is a depth of uh yeah practice intuition work exploration that has gone on that isn't seen and I think sometimes it can come across when the likes of you and I might be saying, "Oh, yeah, just open the heart to love. There's love right here. This is um always loving you." And and it it that's true to we

23:55 say to a degree that's absolutely true. I feel it in my being. And yet that is not true to 99.9% of people. That's not where they're at. That's just not the way it is. So actually it's not that effective for to just say things like that again and again and again to just go into the world and go just everything's already awake. You're already awake. It's already love. It's like whether that's true or not. Why are we doing that? If I if I'm going to say that in the world, what is it that I'm doing that for? And I'm not say I can't answer that.

24:29 It's different for each person. But what it it's a little tonedeaf. I would say it's a little tonedeaf to the way that suffering is in the world. Cuz you know and I know that there are times when that message would have made me sick. Physically sick. I would have been like no [ __ ] you. [ __ ] everybody else saying that. Like this is not you don't know what it is to feel like this you know. So yeah, I think it's an it's an interesting thing, is it? Cuz I I I often feel that movement of play joy surrender love openness kindness generosity connection eulgence, all of these words, radiance luminance, you know, the words don't touch it. Yeah, that that is absolutely the case in my experience. And also it's not that useful most of the time.

25:22 May maybe maybe a couple a couple of times out of a hundred but most of the time what people are looking for is this is hurting help that they're coming to us and saying this is hurting like help what practical thing have you got for me and that's the challenge isn't it I think that's the real challenge of being a teacher in the world and I know you might say that you're not a teacher yet you are teaching so like regardless of whether you want to put a label on yourself or not. And it's the same for me. I might say, "Oh, no. I'm not a teacher." Yeah, we're we're in the world online. We're talking about this stuff.

26:00 So, yeah, actually, we've got a responsibility to recognize, okay, well what do people actually need most of the time? And I think well, that grows and develops and we need to listen. We have to have a keen ear for that, don't we? We can't assume that we know. We have to listen in order to let the heart respond to the needs of others. So this is why at the beginning I talked about residing in the heart. It always knows the way it like that open loving connected awake heart. That's the path that wisdom is impraisd. The wisdom that's not personal. You know that which is the universe of wisdom that ripens through the awake heart like that is available when we rest here in open loving awake presence. You know um but it requires listening. It doesn't manifest through us if we go, "Oh, I know the way. I know what's wrong. I know what to do for you." It's like, "Oh, okay." Yeah. We we immediately take this world of

27:01 collaboration and reciprocity and play and dance with others in relation. We just shrink it down to Q&A. Basically just becomes Q&A, doesn't it? like and that's all right I guess if you want answers but no answer I can give will ever actually help you really cuz you don't need answers what you're looking for is truth it I have you know on my own unfolding it's been a public unfolding

27:32 so, you, can, yeah, you, mean, you, can, watch on video me do all these things that you're talking about it's like yeah okay when you fully realize the, like you said, the eulgence, just this this obvious radiance that's right here. You can say things like, "Guys, just shut the [ __ ] up. Stop [ __ ] around. Stop doing anything. It's just this like what the [ __ ] are you doing?" And then you get an email or a message from someone and they're like, "But I this thing I just I'm up in my head and I don't understand what you're talking about." And there's tears coming out.

28:03 And then you sit with them and the heart knows exactly what to do. It's like "Yeah, okay. This is take some breaths. let's sit together like yeah it's really hard suffering is the worst and I I think Ramdas called it unbearable compassion like that's what arises it's unbearable comp like you cannot stay idle when faced with that

28:24 your, heart, opens, into, it, and, the, perfect configuration from that page no wisdom like you said that you're not doing it

28:31 shows, up, but, here's, the, trap, on, like, a YouTube and this is why we we we can sit here and argue about different forms of expression because on YouTube, you're talking a one-sizefits-all to a whole audience of people at every different level of expression.

28:44 And, it, maybe, there's, three, people, in that audience that need to hear that. And that collapses the seeking cycle that needed to collapse in that moment cuz they've put the work. They've done that already and they're stuck and it just needed to collapse.

28:58 But, then, for, the, person, who's, still like, man, my mind is just crazy all the time and I've had all this trauma and there's nothing. And like you said they're thinking, "Fuck you." And they'll say that in the comments

29:11 and, I'm, like,, "Yeah,, I, would, say, that too if I had that." And I've had I have had that.

29:15 Uh, so, yeah., Yeah., Yeah., So, it, it, it becomes that's where I say Ramdas kind of seems to inhabit the entire spectrum and I know that when he was sitting with people in paliative care, he was right where that person was. He wasn't anywhere other than where that person was.

29:32 Uh, beautiful. It's, magical., It's, magical., magical. Yeah., I've, got, a, very, dear, friend

29:39 who, I, won't, uh, mention, her, name, here, but she um plays music to people as they die. So, she is a musical therapist for paliotative care for people that are in the dying process. It's just like she's like an actual angel basically like look like what? So she's just like this messenger of presence because she's deeply heart open, awake, present, generous kind, and she brings all of that to these people that, you know, they are as deluded as the next person. You know they're they're not spiritual folk. And yet the experiences that she describes in those moments of recognition of uh this universal presence seeing itself in each other as life slips away.

30:31 It's I mean it it is magical like what what she describes and heartbreaking. So heartbreaking you know

30:40 it's, not, for, the, faint, of, heart., It takes a lot of courage to to do that but yeah what she describes is so beautiful. It's like there's this often this recognition of truth and not just truth as in uh I'm not a fixed self not that it's like this deeper deeper experiential truth of well I can't say any more than that but it it's shared in experience it's brought into life through the shared experience of death which is well yeah I mean It's a mystery and it's so beautiful. So yeah, I mean I don't know. I mean I say that I don't you don't get any answers out of this. I don't offer any answers. I guess it's just pointing to that this is this experience of life and death is beyond a pale. We cannot we will never understand it. We will never ever understand it.

31:37 But we can know it in experience as in we can't know what it is. We can infinitely contextualize and have conversations like this. And if we try to rely upon that, we kind of get deluded and we grab and yeah, we suffer a lot. But in experience and especially in relationship with that heartopening acceptance comes a ripening of knowing like knowingness almost like a it's a knowing without object really. There's no subject or object of knowing. There's just the knowing. what's known that's where language fails. You can't But it's I mean it's absolutely clear isn't it? And it's so interesting that's not it's not just the uh yeah the area of specialtity of awakened beings. It's like this is just happening to everyday folk. We all have access to this hopefully before our deathbed, you know, but yeah, I think it's just it's available to us, isn't it?

32:41 Yeah. It's right here, right now. This is it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even, when, it, feels, like, it, really, isn't it.

32:49 Yeah., Especially, maybe,, you, know,, and, uh it's funny cuz when we use the terms delusion, we're not using them as some pjorative about people who just don't get it. It is it is a very specific term, right? Delusion. We're we're seeing incorrectly what's actually here. There's there's a perception of things as they are not

33:10 and, that's, the, normal, human, operating system. It's not something special. You're not especially deluded in any way. It's just yeah that's the delusion and it's so sticky. It's so subtle and it goes so deep into our causes and conditions what the Hindus might call the karma the sort of karmic conditions that this is where that quote unquote work of purification of of development. And you could say look I get it there are people the sort of neoaditans who will say there's no work there's no development there's no you shut up like it it all all that is just seeking and it's keeping the engine of suffering going and okay yeah that okay I you can see that perspective and a lot of times that perspective is held by people who were traumatized by spiritual teachers or

33:53 had, some, very, bad thing, happen, and, I, totally, have, love, and compassion for that view and I at times I've inhabited that view. I'm like, "Oh man, when I just let go of all that it's obvious right here. Okay, great."

34:07 And, yet,, and, yet, it's, like,, but, what, is it that prevents us? What What is this word delusion? What is this that is preventing us from seeing moment to moment? This kingdom of heaven is spread upon the earth, yet men do not see it. It's this.

34:21 So,, what, is, that?, Ah,, that's, where, the attunement, the discernment, the looking, the the work, the the struggle the dark night, all of it.

34:28 Yeah. That's, where, that, shows, up., Absolutely. And this is why friendship's really important for that, you know, like

34:34 community, and, because, actually, that's, a lot to go through on your own, isn't it? You know, like

34:39 our, willingness, to, face, that, again, and again and again and again and again and again and again add infin item

34:46 it, it, you, know, it, diminishes., It's, hard. It is you know we can lose faith so to speak. So actually when we have these supportive caring connected openhearted people that even that just cheerleaders a bit like why not just somebody just says you have got this or let's screw all that let's watch Godzilla on on TV and like yeah whatever it is but you know like that that feeling of community it it shares the load doesn't it? and we're much more able to face like you said the nuance and uh the challenge of unbinding and I think I mean there's a lot to say about this maybe we can touch on a little bit but one of the most pre prevailing um messages which I think is unhelpful in the world of spirituality at the moment is this idea that everything is already awake you're already awake um everything's already fine just as it is.

35:47 There's nothing to do. I'm not saying that's wrong. What I'm saying is that it's so unhelpful for most people because if you have just start, you've just stepped, you know, dipped your finger into the pool of awakening and just gone, "Oh, I wonder what this is." And you hear that, it's like, "Oh, well I'll just continue smoking weed, like raping people for profit, you know, like being a jerk to people, mistreating people sexually." Um, but I'm already awake, so it's already fine. It is like it gives totally the wrong idea of what this path is. This path is a path. It's meant to be walked. We we it's step by step. We take the journey, don't we? But yeah, and I'm not, like I said, it's not that it's wrong. There's a time and a place for it, but it's it's almost it's so universal. I think it's just like lazy basically for most spiritual teachers or most spiritual speakers.

36:48 It's just kind of like they maybe don't have the flexibility and capacity to listen and adapt and to respond and to meet the needs of others. Or maybe they've not done the work themselves. I think that that's probably the case a lot of the time. they've not walked the path sufficiently. So they've maybe had some experiences, they've learned a lot of uh doctrine and they've created a spiritual worldview and they just go it's fine, everything's fine. It's like well yeah I mean as both you and I know this is these are the hard miles like it is tough sometimes it is very very tough and it isn't one and done like and I think anybody is projecting that you're going to get a oneanddone situation.

37:38 Well why why are you doing that other than for clicks like because if you're doing it for clicks and likes fine that works. But if it was the case, you only ever need to make one video. Just make that one video because that's it. That's the one and done. No more videos required. But actually, it's not one and done obviously cuz people come back the next time and go, "Well, that kind of didn't work. Have you got something else for me?" It's like, "Yeah, I've kind of got the same message, but with slightly different words." just like propelling this perpetual seeking online, this craving for this instant eradication of the human experience. You know, it's like people don't want to awaken to the full spectrum of life when they're going in this mode. They want to eradicate the difficulties of being human.

38:29 That's not possible. You're going to die. Like, you're go you're going to die. You cannot eradicate that. You are going to get ill and die. And everyone you know is going to get ill and die. And if you are lucky, you will watch that happen. And if you as in like you will get to be alongside them and that will happen before you lose your life. You know that is an important message to realize and sit with as part of the spiritual you know the spiritual life. So yeah there's no get you don't get out of this alive essentially. So how do we integrate and incorporate those actual truths of being human into what it is to be free and to live with an open awake liberated spirit? What what is that?

39:20 What is being liberated, being free in a body that is definitely going to fail you? What is that? And I I don't have And that's the thing is I don't have an answer. I don't have a quick answer. It can be found out by exploring this path you know step by step looking at the ways in which we struggle and try to negotiate with life and try to project our images onto the way it should be. You know we get to explore that. But yeah it's not like oh watch my next video and I'll sort it out for you. Like watch my next video I'll give you the answer and all of that goes away.

39:56 No. And, smash, that, like, button, and, hit subscribe and make sure to share this video.

40:02 Um,, okay, man,, this, is, um, this, is something that I, don't, know, what, came, up, there., That that that, got, a, little, bit, that, got, a little bit intense, didn't it? How exciting. No, it's funny as you were as you were doing that I was this righteous compassionate anger was arising and the anger is at the at the bypass itself

40:25 that, tends, to, arise, like, the the, delusive, aspect, of, us, that, thinks that we can find the hack the cheat code for this and I believe me I've been guilty of this and I've talked to many people who have promoted this to me and I've co-promoted Everybody's been guilty of this to some degree. Everyone.

40:43 Absolutely., Absolutely., And, when, it arises, it's like, yeah. Okay. First of all, there's no morality in the absolute truth. Like you can actually you can say things like that and then you go out and when you do something to hurt someone you're up all night. Well, what the [ __ ] is that? Is that um is that the absolute showing up? No.

41:05 It, there's, something, here, that, I'm, not understanding about how reality is. Yeah.

41:11 And, it's, that, and, it's, like, the, coming back into the marketplace with open hands, helping hands like what Ramdas is sitting with people as they're dying. He doesn't need to do that.

41:20 Like, why, would, he, do, that?, The, guy's, as he's done so much [ __ ] work. He's sat in ashrams in India in the winter with no heat but a charcoal brazer and the windows open. He's bathed in frozen rivers cuz that's all he could do. He's lost 60 lbs eating vegetarian food. And this was a Harvard professor with two rich parents. The whole thing has they summer in Connecticut and they, you know, he has all that just like the Buddha gave up his princely life.

41:49 Totally. He's, put, himself, through, the, suffering like where he can sit eye to eye and go "Okay, yeah. Christ being nailed to the cross, watching the person nail him into the cross and seeing unconditional love and going, "Yeah, I I I love you for

42:04 everything, that, you've, gone, through, that would make you do this." Like that is never [ __ ] actualized in, yeah nothing's happening. Nothing's ever happened. You're not even there. Like and yet and so then what shows up Simon and I know you've seen this is people come to you and I have been this person and I occasionally still the flickers of the show where you see these easy answers and you're like oh [ __ ] I guess I haven't found it I haven't gotten it yet like this person's figured it out they had some big explosive mystical experience, maybe, that's, a, or, b, oh oh they just died oh they just died and so now everything is just there's nobody here that it's happening to so of course everything's just fine it's liberation like just realize it's a dream that you never were and everything's fine. And it's like that sounds great until somebody cuts you off in traffic or your kid gets sick or you know and some of

42:55 these people they don't have kids. They've never had relationships. They've been traumatized. It's like well yeah I could see why that would

43:02 show, up, for, you., It's, almost, like, a dissociative pattern and, but, but, then, people, fall, into, this thing online you know because we're social creatures and then they come to me and they're like I'm so unhappy. This is not why don't I have this yet? I'll never be awake. I'll never be free. And then this unbearable compassion arises cuz you see in them you and you and them and there's no difference there. Yeah.

43:27 Oh, yeah., I, love, it., And, I, I, really, like what you said that that that, the, only, We've, had, this, discussion before about certain aspects of the, you know, the the spiritual sphere.

43:38 The, only, sensible, response, is, compassion to it. So if so if I'm seeing or you're seeing this

43:47 I, mean, that, you, said, there's, like there's a r righteous anx that it's like oh you know why why are they doing this but when we drop a little deeper it's like it's kind of sweet actually

43:59 there's, a, there's, a, sweet, well, there's, a sweetness to, like, well, of, course

44:05 we, want, it, all, to, go, away, instantly., Of course we do. Of course. Like that's Yeah. And not just not just because Yeah. That's like a movement of the heart, but also we've been indoctrinated like that. That's what consumerism does. That's the very nature of consumerism isn't it? It's like instant satisfaction to your craving. Um, so actually you could say that the majority of a path really and the Buddha said this very clearly is recognizing that craving fuel that propels us into continual becoming and grasping.

44:44 Recognizing that and again and again meeting that with love, again meeting that with compassion till those clinging, grasping hands relax and soften. Do we recognize the things that we're grasping at will never ever ever satisfy? Because like I've pointed to before, because these conditions are falling apart. Doesn't matter what you grab onto. Call that a Mercedes-Benz a house in California, or awakening. Call it whatever you want. It is falling apart right now. Right now. It is falling apart right now. Yet the delusion, is, oh, no no, no, I, can, rely, upon these things and we all get to see that that is not true.

45:27 We, all, get, to, see, that. So, then so, then, what, do, you, do?, That's, the question then isn't it? So it's like well knowing that and seeing that even just a glimpse what do you do? And this is where the invitation of exploration of that which is not conditioned arises. It's like I can see the arising and passing of conditioned phenomena whatever it is. Like I said, could call it Mercedes, could call it physical sense, desire, you know, like orgasms and smoking and whatever it is, you know, beauty in in sight, you know, but I can see the arising and ceasing of those phenomena.

46:07 And I know that is not satisfactory. Ultimately, it's not going to satisfy me. So what happens if I let go? What happens if I I just one step at a time one phenomena at a time, where possible just hold a little more lightly. Just let go a little bit, a little bit. And then what becomes apparent is that which cannot be spoken about in conditional terms, which is the unconditioned uncformed, uncompounded nirvana, which is exactly what the Buddha is talking about. This is liberate. You know that's the liberation that is pointed to often but we're so deeply conditioned to believe that the conditions will satisfy us that it cannot be a one and done. We are conditioned from the moment we have our first sensory input. You know we inherit this millennia of self-centered delusion. It takes a a long time for that to unbind really. So realistically the work becomes very simple. Just this moment to whatever degree possible hold

47:17 a little less tightly. That's it. Just like just do that forever. And, then, you, may, find, that, there's, no holding. Wouldn't that be amazing? You may find that after maybe 15, 20 years and I know you found this and I found this is that a situation that was familiar five years ago arises, five years later and there's just no grasping at all. You don't do anything. You just realize, oh, there's freedom now. And I remember when it felt like hell

47:49 but, now, there's, just, no, stickiness,, no triggering, no reactivity. And you just put it down to the to the training, the practice, doing the work. Just a slight letting go, letting go letting go, unbinding. Yeah. The appropriate response to that is total silence. That's the appropriate I mean because that's what that is. I mean, that was beautiful for me. Uh for me that has shown up as a it can feel like a continual sense of loss. So you know you said it perfectly momento mori remember you will die everyone around you will die all of it is impermanence. So how can this be satisfactory when it doesn't ever last? So impermanence, lack of satisfactoriness, lack of certainty, predictability and lack of just any permanent sense of um realness to this means those are the fundamental delusions is we think there are those things moment to moment. We think this will continue. I can have this. This

48:59 will make me happy. Um I can make this permanent. I can have a legacy. I will have eternal life. I will be eternally awake and blissful all and then I'll be happy then I'll be okay and it's like that is the fundamental like the 10th feder which is really the primary feder which is I think this is permanent substantial and satisfactory

49:21 and, it's, not, and, so, when, like, you, said so what's the practice then well it's exactly what you said in a million different faces like all the different Hindu deities looking at you with different practices different aspects of this truth and when it shows up like for me it's been like, oh, I lost the identity of being Zdog the performer who is going to make myself feel worthy by making people like him. or I lost the sense that I'm going to be like fabulously so wealthy that I'm always secure and safe and I always feel safe because there's certainty that I won't be on the street like you know or I'm going to find the perfect you know romance with my partner and it's just going to be flawless and we'll work out all this stuff and

50:04 and, each, of, those, things, starts, to, die and then what happens exactly what you said something arises that would have triggered this feeling in the body and then this cascade of emotions and thoughts like, oh, grasping or pushing away and it just doesn't. It's just seen. And if anything, maybe there's a subtle movement like you feel this twinge that you recognize and you go oh, there's that twinge that would start a cascade and it just goes into nothing.

50:28 Oh,, beautiful. Um,, and, that's, the, work, that, you're, that you're pointing at that that we cannot bypass.

50:33 Which, is, interesting., That's, the, very work that you uh like espoused the very first time I contacted you. I don't know if you remember

50:43 but, I, reached, out, to, you, because, you were, like you said, you've kind of gone through this process online

50:48 but, you, were, talking, exactly, about, that tendency towards reactivity within the body mind to try and fight with experience and deal with anger and to try and become the one who fixes everything and you were doing the work you know, like so it might sound at this point, you know, people might tune in and go, "Oh, Zubin's saying everything is love and you know, open radiant presence. But and and actually yeah like we said okay yeah is a facet to what's going on but actually both you and I know that it you know this work was not that at that time it was real kind of intimate very closed very senuey just straightforward there is this experience it feels this way everything about me wants to react like this wants to push against or pull towards it wants It it's this is the movement of craving isn't it? That that is the fuel of suffering. The craving for more of something or the craving for less of

51:49 something. So, tanhar or vibawa tanha which is like give me more thirst or like get rid get rid you know and it's that constant play of craving that keeps us bound to suffering because we're just wrestling with these conditions that really have no solidity to them. They don't have any permanence. They don't they come and go of their own accord when we let them. They they just arise and cease. Arise and cease and rise and cease. But that they're so well they're not actually sticky, but they can feel so sticky because of our conditioning that before we know it, we we're dragged, aren't we? We kind of like we grab onto whatever it is. Could be the insult. Could be some of the words we've said in this conversation. might be, oh no, Simon said that thing about neoader and oh my god, I can't believe he said that and blah, you know, and then there we go. That's the grabbing of the mind that wants to wrestle with the thing in

52:47 a dualistic way as in subject and object or this over that, right versus wrong. And it gives the illusion that there's safety in that. There's safety in being on the right side of the argument. It's like, no, the argument, the very aspect that there's an argument at all or any kind of conflict at all, you could say that's what's unsafe because it's not true in the most in the truest sense. It's not in line with nature. So nature doesn't have these opposing permanent conflictual sides. That's just not I mean, we can see that. Look, look around you. I don't see that really anywhere but when I hear stories about it, it seems so real, doesn't it? Like if somebody tells me Republicans versus Democrats, you know, like um Mexicans versus Americans or, you know, North versus South, whatever it is, like when somebody says that, it feels like there's a real opposition.

53:54 But it's just the mind playing with mind stuff really. It's like the conditioned mind playing with the imagined conditions. It's like, okay, well, what and again that's the invitation, isn't it? Well what is there that is not conditioned? Is there an aspect to this experience that does not depend upon conditions? And that's it. It's just a simple invitation, isn't it? Each time it's like, okay, well, whatever's here right now, can I sense that which does not depend? just the slightest sense just a little little flavor and this is where the Buddha like said in one of it's a beautiful sa it might have been Sabuti actually but he said turn towards the deathless turn towards the unconditioned if you sense it in experience yeah let it let that take you the unconditioned aspect of this let that become the most interesting part of uh you say part of experience well actually we start to realize it's not part of experience it

54:55 is. Well, this is where the words ground come up quite a lot, don't they? But yeah,, sorry, if, this, is, a, bit, of a ramble, but it's kind of it's kind of fun to explore, isn't it

55:06 dude?, This, is, the, only, thing, I, care about. So,, so,, so, the, Okay,, man., Ah., All right. So this this duality society this sort of uh consensus reality of human conditioning millennia like you said millennia of division and delusion

55:24 will for those that are going through this will assert itself like mara, the, the, sort, of, you, know, pseudmonic force that

55:37 hit, the, Buddha, under, the, bodhi, tree, and was like it, will, assert, itself., It, will, say things to me like, "Why aren't you talking about RFK and the vaccine things that they're doing and Trump and this? You have a platform. You have a voice. You used to talk about this stuff. You're a health care professional. We signed up to watch you talk about this. And now you're telling me everything is love and radiance and you should sit and meditate or whatever it is you're telling me in that moment." And uh for a a long time when I met you, that was what WAS ARISING. IT'S LIKE LIKE what do I do about this? Like there's a the pull of this thing because it it rewards you with a burst of feeling transient satisfactoriness like I did a thing. I helped people. Did you? Have you? When you realize what you pointed out, which is what I was calling the alt middle like this this realization that they're

56:34 they're really both sides of the same side of the same no thing. The unconditioned you you you can't increasingly you just can't. So, what you pointed out where you'll go back and you'll say it's not even like, oh, Simon said this about Nadance. It's more like what did I say about that? Like, was that right? like there's an internal self-correction mechanism that starts to arise where you're like I took a side transiently didn't I oh and you see it maybe it's after the fact and you're like oo and it creates a little oh that's not quite hm ah and it just kind of relaxes and and instead of shooting into guilt into shame and unworthiness although those can come and they're also welcome and then you see them it's more like oh okay yeah no that wasn't really I guess I there was a little bit of delusion showing up there where that

57:21 wasn't, wasn't, seen, and, that's, okay, and then, it's, like, ah, and, so, it, it's it's, a continual kind of flux of this now if you want to talk about the real bypass the bypass that I like that is not bypass it is looking at

57:41 10, bypasses, in, three rising, one, place, to, number, two okay, top, 10, non-pornographic, magazines to bypass to okay 3 2 one high times um the uh the the what you pointed at that which is an experience now that does not depend on conditions the deathless so for me that is not bypass that is going okay I'm caught there's a c a caught in conditions believing conditions to be

58:14 permanent, satisfactory, you, know, real substantial okay, what's, here, that's, not, that, that's beyond and not that. And that's what becomes louder and louder and louder and more and more right on the edge of waking awareness because it cannot be thought of. It can't be remembered except in the heart

58:34 and, and, when, it's, touched, it's, like, oh and for me it's a big smile and it's laughter and it's a sense of energy coming through the body seems to happen sometimes. These are just epipenomena of that touching and sometimes it's nothing. It's just stillness. It's just silence. And that is the pure freedom beyond that is the pervades everything. And these words are stupid. And yet I have to talk cuz body mind loves to do that.

59:01 Yeah., Well,, I, mean, that, that's, they're the tools that we have, aren't they? You know, like this is the

59:07 the, beauty., This, is, where, we, start, to really recognize the beauty of the infinite creativity of the ground as phenomena or the mind as projection or you whatever you you can say you know the emptiness as form like we get this once there's this opening up and this letting go and this realization of the non-fixed nature of that's where words fail from that infinite words can arise. eyes, can't they? And they and they're always playful. If we recognize that the words are never it, the words are never it. They're just never it.

59:45 But, there, can, be, play, and, dance, in experience as experience that kind of can loop back around and point back towards it, can't they? They can they can keep us in the loop. It's like a collaborative experience. uh it can be really beautiful but that takes a long time to learn actually because

1:00:03 or, remember, I, think, a, long, time, to remember because you know we we're born with this inherent capacity for play like actual play you know not this contrived play but this just like everything is

1:00:16 spontaneously, curiously exploring itself you know like for no end you there's no there's no end point or result or gratification ation. It's just gratification in itself, you know, and we did that all the time when we were young, you know. It was just super easy to do. And we we it the conditioning just kind of like says, "No, that's silly. That's pointless. That doesn't get things done." Because actually conditioned existence says that A plus B equals C. you know, like there is um we're putting this thing which is imagined together with this thing which is imagined and we're getting this new imagined thing and that's valuable.

1:01:00 So it's like, oh yeah, well, if I'm going to buy into that, I need to let go of play that has no end, no purpose, you know, it's all got to be purposeful. So then learning how to play again. It's really hard, you know, and and what comes up, and I'm sure it does with you is shame. A lot when we start playing again, we start feeling the shameful messages of you're no good. You're worthless. What use are you? You're not doing the thing that you should do. Like you said, you're not talking about healthcare, you're not are you even a doctor anymore? You know, like that kind. And that's just like specific to you. I've got my own [ __ ] going on in that regard, you know, like. But you'll feel those messages like, yeah, it's it's so interesting. It's such a beautiful practice to to then feel that and meet that with the same curiosity and playful spirit as well. It's like okay, well, so this this deep shameful

1:01:55 messaging has arose in me as I take my foot off the doing and step more into the being. How can I treat that with curiosity and play? Also

1:02:06 sometimes, that's, possible. Sometimes it's absolutely not. It's just too disgusting to even be near. You have to just kind of like move away. Sometimes that the play might be I'm going to call Zub in and I'm just going to say listen this is hard. Can you help me? And that in itself that's playful and spontaneous because that's like the last thing that the shameful controlling um gogetter achiever mindset wants is weakness and vulnerability and companionship and collaboration. So just that simple step into let's call a friend and just say I'm struggling with this thing. Can you help me? That is found to be playful as well. It's like oh wow isn't that amazing? Then we can play together. How exciting is that?

1:02:53 That is absolutely gorgeous. And and you touched on Oh, you touched on I mean this is the dance you and I do. It is play every time. And and it could be like

1:03:01 like, I'm, going, through, living, hell. You're going through living hell. Like when when you It's so funny. Sometimes you'll call and we'll both like start with like, "So, how are you?" And it's like, "Well, you know what? Tell me how you are first." And whoever says that is usually the one that's probably suffering more in that moment. And and then what will happen is this very dark painful stuff will come up

1:03:24 and, it, will, it, will, turn, into, this collaborative sort of dance and just the expression of it just the witnessing of it just the communion of it is enough to turn it into that. And you know, as you were talking about this idea of play, it brought back this memory of when I was young. And it's it's interesting because we were talking about how the conditioning tells us this isn't okay and how much love and forgiveness we have to have for ourself for forgetting because sometimes we hold ourselves accountable like how could I forget this? Like well here's how. So you know I'm a kid. I forget how old I was very young. I was still living in New Jersey.

1:03:59 And I had this um goldfish bowl, this glass goldfish bowl. And I remember I asked my mom, "Could I take it in the shower cuz I want to play with it in the shower." And she's like "Why?" You know, it's just a goldfish bowl. I'm like, "I just want to." So I took this bowl in the shower and I'm in the shower. I'm taking a shower. I don't know how when I was 6 years old or something. And I'm filling it with water and I'm just watching the like water slashing around and pouring it out and the colors and the sights and the play for the sake of play. just this beautiful thing. And at some point it slips out of my hand cuz it's slippery and it's heavy and it's glass and it's full of water and it shatters at my feet and there's blood because I've cut my toe or something, right?

1:04:41 And, so, I, start, crying, and, so, my, dad comes in and he sees this thing, this shattered glass and I'm crying and he gets absolutely furious like M

1:04:56 and, he, just, he, takes, me, out, of, the, thing and he just like whoops me and he's like don't ever do that again. Like you know this this this and I'm crying and my mom's screaming and all this stuff.

1:05:06 And, and, the, message, they, were, innocent like of course like you see your kid covered in blood. Your first reaction is like this defensive rage and all your conditioning. I nothing wrong with that.

1:05:15 But, the, message, to, the, child, is, that wasn't okay. It didn't have a purpose. It's unsafe. You know all this stuff. But I get like the safety of holding glass in the shower. Yes. But the play is what was conditioned out. And so then later there's all this wall around you that I can't feel that. I can't do that. Just sitting and being and just looking at the desk for an hour is not okay. You know, like you're no longer a doctor. You're no longer a husband. You're no longer a provider of the family. All these things that arise

1:05:46 and, uh, it's, really, quite, heartbreaking. Yeah. Oh, man,, you're, breaking, my, heart, just just saying these words. I I feel it really deeply because actually everything you described was a movement of innocence, wasn't it? Like it was just this innocent exploration and an accident happened. So not only is the play kind of conditioned out of you, you're being taught with violence that you need to be perfect. You cannot make mistakes. Like

1:06:17 so, at, the, same, time,, yes,, okay,, the parents are innocent and they're conditioned as well. And also it is absolutely okay to be like, no, [ __ ] that. That was not okay.

1:06:29 Like, so, and, I, I, have, that, in, my, own experience is like, yes, there's a there's so much love and respect and care for my parents and everything that they did. And at the same time is those things that you did, they really hurt. They there's no no kind of they hurt but

1:06:47 they, hurt, but, it, was, it, was, your, own conditioning or you're just responding because you were traumatized. Yeah, that might be true but it's important to have that acknowledgment of yeah this did really hurt. No buts, no ifs, no may. This really hurt and I love you.

1:07:05 You, know,, we, can, have, those, two, things. So this is like when the heart is open and not bound up in dualism well actually we don't need to find sides, do we? We don't need to have it be a certain way. We notice that the boundless heart is boundless. It has an infinite capacity to feel. So it can hold contradict apparently contradictory truths at the same time. But yeah, so like if you think about that, that's one instance. one instance in your experience as a child there there will probably be thousands more I'm not talking about you I'm talking about the universal childhood experience thousands more of those drip drip drip where we are we kind of hammered into shape into the shape of a scared often uh isolated self like a fixed individual that is not good enough and needs to and needs to do better.

1:08:03 And, it's, a, view, and, a, belief, that, we carry with us nearly, all, our, lives,, most, of, us, for, all our lives. I see people that I love very dearly, you know, friends and family. I can feel it pervading nearly every experience is just this deep unworthiness that they inherited that we all inherited. You know, like Tara Brat calls it, the um the trance of unworthiness. It's really

1:08:28 kind, of, beautiful., Yeah., It's, just because we we inherit this this lostness that we don't know we've got. Yeah. So I mean it's it and this is goes back to that aspect about this unbinding awakening, letting go, liberation of the heart. It's it takes time. It takes patience. It takes kindness. It takes consistency. How could this possibly be one and done? How could it possibly? If you think about what we've just talked about, that is foundational structural, conditional compounded often traumatic material for people. We can't just have an insight and it disappears.

1:09:13 So insights are for the clearly seeing mind. This is the living bioorganism that has been conditioned. So we we're having to work with that all the time aren't we? So yeah, I mean, yeah, bit bit of a ramble, but I feel you so fully with what you're saying because yeah, I think so many people will resonate with what you've just said. This is where I want to link back to our previous conversation in the in the description here because we talked about tools, actual tools for going back

1:09:46 looking, at, these, traumatic, um conditionings and and everybody has them like everybody and and there is you know it's like the first noble truth like life is unsatisfactory, life is suffering, however you want to translate it. There are many many many many many people who deny that that's true.

1:10:05 Yeah. They, don't, see, the, suffering, because, the trance of unworthiness is so pervasive. It's so in every cell of their body that they all deserve.

1:10:15 That's, all, you, deserve., It's, all, you deserve. So, it's, not, even, suffering., It's, just life. It's just that's no I'm not suffering. Yeah. It's like, oh

1:10:24 oh., And, that, is, again, unbearable compassion arises when you when you see that cuz like you said, you feel it now in people sometimes you think it's yours because in a sense it is.

1:10:33 Yes. But, you're, like,, why, am, I, Oh. Oh., And, and, here's, the, thing, like, having teenage girls.

1:10:40 Oh, man,, Simon., Like, because, they transmit. They they cannot hide their emotions when they're going through this like high school conditioning. and they're having a difficult day or something's happening or they're going through something. Oh my god, it's like it's shot right into you and you you just feel it entirely and you're and and the the first movement of the unexamined mind is to get the [ __ ] out or to do something to distract or or to make it stop, right? And un unfortunately or fortunately,

1:11:16 that's, no, longer, possible. No., So, now, it's, like,, okay,, I'm, going, to fill all of this. Yeah. And it and it leads again

1:11:23 parenthood, 3.0, or, something,, isn't, it? It's like like, how, do, you, how, do, you, actually, show up as a living, loving, present parent you know, without relying upon those uh kind of yeah avoidance defense mechanisms because that's really what most of them are, aren't they? Is that like these Yeah. I mean, it's a big conversation. probably not good for a non-parent to talk about parenting because there's a lot for me to learn. But I know in my own experiences that the the lack of capacity of the the primary caregiver to feel or resonate with the actual feeling of the child just means that they move into their own defensive structures and patterns. So then they impose those defensive structures and patterns onto the child which then grow into this kind of like maladapted person which then perpetuates generation after generation after generation and often it involves like really really difficult stuff you

1:12:22 know so like codependence, or, violence, you, know, and, it might like you said when you talked about you know you got hit by your dad you know I was hit quite a lot when I was a child as well and What's beautiful in a way is that nowadays that's clearly seen as not okay. I don't know if it is in the states but in the UK like that's child endangerment. You will get and get arrested for hitting your child, you know, I mean if it gets reported whereas, you know, when we were growing up that was just like that was parenting. It's just parenting. Yeah.

1:12:52 It's just standard. And, it's, like, the, effect, that, that, has on you as a as a kid to just like

1:12:58 and, often, it, would, be, because, I, felt, too much. It's like, "Oh, I'm I'm having these feelings and they want to be expressed."

1:13:07 It's, like,, "Shut, those, feelings, down, or else or else?" What? Or else I'll hit you. It's like, "What the fuck?" But I can't shut them down. Well, you're going to get hit.

1:13:17 It's, like,, what, is, that? That, is, wild., And, and, like it's, not, anybody's, fault,, like, you, said, but that is painful stuff, you know? That is painful. like the the way in which that

1:13:29 shapes, and, conditions, people, over, time. Um,, so, I, kind, of, want, to, give, a, weird shout out now because um, have you seen K-pop Demon Hunters?

1:13:41 So,, it's, funny., Everyone's, been, telling me to watch it. My kids watch it and they're like, "It's garbage, Dad. Don't watch it." But I heard it's something to watch.

1:13:48 It, is, an, amazing, Okay,, I'll, check, it out. I've watched it three times this week.

1:13:53 Oh,, that's, awesome., So, um, and, the, reason I say that is because it gives a message that you never hear. You never hear this message. It's all about unresolved patterns of shame and damage that are hidden through fear stopping us from being free. And it and the entire and they the demons ultimately I'm not not going to go into it in too much. And it's all about like letting these patterns of shame and damage see the light, be accepted in community in the world to be liberated. It is sick. Like it's so good. The songs are amazing.

1:14:31 They're so beautiful and like you can tell it's taken years and years to write because they've been able to code in so many different facets of societal norms that are not spoken about. So like autistic traits are really beautifully coded into some of the characters. Queer traits have been really like very heavily coded into it. But it's not overtly like neurody divergent friendly or overtly queer friendly or overtly. Yeah. No, it's not any it they've got into this universal human experience of shame.

1:15:08 They're, able, to, like, tap, into, it, in, all these different ways. And that's why I think something like three billion people have watched it. Like it's ludicrous how how successful it is that it it's like this cipher. It's gone right under the radar of content consuming mind and it's resonating on this level of shared humanity that I don't think people actually know that it's happening consciously but they're feeling it. They're feeling it. And I felt it so deeply. I watched it the first time I was like, "What was that?" Just all of this emotion coming up. I couldn't believe how good it is. So yeah, I mean some people may think it's trash. I strongly disagree. I think it's incredibly thoughtful, beautifully made piece of art with it's very considered.

1:16:02 Very, very considered. And it's effortless to watch. Incredible songs. Gets you singing, gets you dancing. incredible animation. You've got like cool, very cool female empowered, not girl boss, but real people kicking the [ __ ] out of demons as well. So, like there's there's that aspect to it, which is just fun. Like, honestly, I've been blown away by K-pop demon hunters. I I cuz I had a similar view to you or this isn't for me, you know? This is kind of like just like Frozen or whatever, you know? It's just kind of

1:16:38 Disney, trash., It, is, not, that., It, is quite something. Yeah, it's really beautiful.

1:16:46 I'm, absolutely, going, to, watch, it, tonight because the way you described it, that is right up my alley. Like I I'll absolutely, you know, it's funny. I I had that experience with the Barbie movie of all things. You know, I

1:16:58 when, I, saw, that,, I, was, like,, this, is, all about repressed emotion. And it's about being able to actually allow safely your feelings and to really grow into your power that way instead of, you know, and all this dichotomy of male, female patriarchy, all that. That's a side note. It's it's about that, you know, I want to feel everything. And that's why the song by Billy Isish, that's the kind of hit from that movie is so perfect. You know

1:17:23 what, am, I, made, for?, What, am, I, made, for? It's beautiful. Um it, points, back, to, kind, of, where, we started about that deep human longing to be seen and connection. You know, it's in all of us. We, it is the default. And when you get a piece of art or popular culture that strikes that note

1:17:44 and, I, think,, like, you, said,, Barbie, does it really well. Uh, K-pop Demon Hunters does it beautifully. I think Everything Everywhere All at Once does that perfectly. it because he doesn't specifically say this is what it's about. It's just like no this is the human experience. It is broad. It is messy. It is tricky. And because of that we can relate. We can see our own lives in it. And when it does that this ripple happens and we just like popular culture would say well that's a film being successful. But actually what I feel is no that is human nature. that inclination to wake up the open awake loving heart. It's like a bell being struck. There's just this ringing resonating human facet of compassionate love. It's like, oh yeah, it's alive in all of us.

1:18:38 And I just think it's I I don't know. I find it very beautiful that in times like this when we're told just accept AI slop and just like be given short form content and be given quick answers for everything. When you get like a piece of popular culture just says, "No, it doesn't have to be like that look." And you get billions of people going, "Oh oh yeah, okay." I mean, that Yeah, I find it very uplifting, as you can probably tell.

1:19:07 Ah,, it's, beautiful., I, I, I, have, a, similar response to beautiful pop culture like that. And it often is it, you know sometimes it's pop culture like that where billions of people are watching it. Sometimes it's something so subtle like Perfect Days. I don't know if you've seen this film.

1:19:21 It's, um, by, a, German, director, starring, a Japanese. It's in set in Japan and it's all in Japanese with subtitles

1:19:29 and, it's, about, a, guy, who, cleans, toilets in Tokyo, those fancy toilets and that's his job. And the guy pretty much he there's hardly any words in the whole movie. There's like five sentences probably in the entire film. And you just watch his life, his perfect days. It's like he goes to he wakes up, he does this, he goes to sleep, he dreams he wakes up, he does this, he goes to sleep, he dreams. And the way it's set up, it's like this is liberation. The way this guy lives, he's looking at the trees, then he's doing his work for the sake of doing the work. Like there's no outcome that he's looking for. He's like, but he's so perfect about it. and then the way he interacts with others and then you get a little glimpse of his past and you realize

1:20:13 he's, had, a, difficult, time, and, yet, here's here he is, you know, cleaning toilets and he's as content as anybody and uh Yeah. Oh yeah. So there's these sort of art pieces like

1:20:25 Perfect, Days., Perfect, days., It's, on, I don't, know if, you, have, Hulu, out, there, in the UK.

1:20:29 Yeah., It's, like, part, of, Disney, now., So yeah. Perfect., Yeah., So, So, you, can, watch, it and tell me what you think. Yeah.

1:20:34 Nice., Yeah., I'd, like, to., I, went, I watched in the cinema the this Christmas um It's a Wonderful Life. Wonderful Life.

1:20:44 It's, been, years. Oh, man,, it's, good., It's, really, good. Yeah, it's just like I just find it so

1:20:51 I, don't, know., I, mean,, we, could, go, into, a whole different area, but I Yeah, it kind of points to the universality of the this compassionate human heart. You know, it's it cannot help but burst into the like everyday life, you know, in spite of all the negative corporate messaging that we we see and receive you know, like this. Yeah. The human inclination towards liberation. Let's call it that. You know, you could call it a body chitter if you want. Whatever it is, it it's it's a an active facet of being alive. And the more that we're able to tune into it, the more you start noticing it kind of everywhere really.

1:21:36 You start noticing it more and more and more. Yeah, it's it's wonderful. How, much, how, much, of, this,, Simon,, do, you think because our own mind projection apparatus seemingly is reconditioned by the insight and experience of this all this work and unfolding that we are projecting into the world now this and when we share it, it it it conditions others or do you think it's absolutely exist? I mean, these are dumb questions. They're almost just intellectual questions that don't make sense. But it it is interesting since we're

1:22:05 That's, the, right, answer. Yes., And yes, and, maybe, not., Who, knows? I, mean,, yeah,, we, could, kind, of, we, could kind of get into that. Um but yeah, it's so beautiful that you were able to catch that mechanism of mind there that the the because actually it is kind of interesting, isn't it? It's kind of interesting.

1:22:25 But, does, it, actually, what, does, it, do? you know, yeah, does it help me to reside more in this known experience of openhearted love

1:22:35 or, does, it, take, me, away, from, that?, And, I think your response was a clear indicator of what that would do for you you know?

1:22:44 So,, yeah,, let's, just, let's, just, come back. Um oh,, it's, it's, so, nice, to, hang, out because we've not actually hung out for a few weeks, have we? Maybe a month or so. So, it's just been it it's I do wonder what people might make of this because it's like this only because this is kind of how we jam, isn't it? Like it's how we vibe and I really like

1:23:06 I, don't, think, there's, a, lot, of, that, in the online awakening world of just people that are figuring this out together, you know, like the walking like actually, yeah, it's it's complicated and it's weird and it's joyful and it's sorrowful and it's all of these things. It's like it's no particular way. So what is it like when two curious friends come together and say well let's just take the risk and explore together. We you know when we get to a stage like now in the conversation we just go we don't get anything out of it. There's no thing that I get out of it and yet what has emerged feels so nourishing like it's it's not specific, but, yeah, yeah yeah, I'm, I'm, just grateful. Just grateful. That's that's beautifully articulated. It's it's funny. So I I've done this for a living in the past this what we're doing and um normally when I'm having a conversation there's a a secondary voice layer that's

1:24:03 a control aspect that's like okay guide it this way because the audience needs to see this or

1:24:10 this, needs, to, happen, here, so, that, it becomes a piece of content that is useful or I wonder what people will think of this like those things would normally be a secondary audio track in my headphone dying like mentally

1:24:23 and, um, when, you, and, I, talk, like, this, and I think some of it is because a lot of this has fallen away which this is a gift to me Simon because it allows me to self-reflect how much has changed cuz sometimes you don't notice on this journey what is gone because it's gone. It's an absence. You don't notice it. You're expecting things to show up like oh love and bliss and presence and you know those are like the the mind wants those things. But like what it doesn't recognize sometimes is what isn't there. And you're pointing this out just now is like, "Oh, that wasn't there. It was just like this lovely convers where my heart is opening and we're sharing these intimate things." It's like, "Oh, that's gorgeous." And if people like it, great.

1:25:03 If they don't, that's okay, too. But like just that we got to do it. And like you said, because we haven't talked in a few weeks, it actually makes it like our conversation,

1:25:12 you, know? It's, like, this, is, what, we, do., Yeah. Yeah. Really fantastic. I think we did a thing, man, because I have to pee soon.

1:25:22 Yeah,, let's, let's, go, off, camera, for that, I think. Um yeah., Well,, yeah,, it's, really, really nice to hang out and yeah, we can do this again. I think yeah, it'd be really nice to do that. Um, but yeah, sending you and anyone who hears this lots of love and yeah, like wherever you are on the path, it includes you, Zuben, and anyone out there, I am alongside you.

1:25:48 That, might, sound, a, little, bit, preachy, or a bit like a bit kind of woo but, like, Yeah,, I, know., I, know, how, hard this can be and you're not alone. You're not alone.

1:26:01 And, he's, not, kidding., Yeah,, he, he, is with you. like he Simon every time I know cuz it's almost like Simon is like the like kind of the voice of the dharma whenever I I get a little too much off into some sidetrack he's like hey you know not intentionally but it's just like oh I'm reminded that ah and it's not and it's not and that it's not easy you know that there's no way to bypass it that that's what's beautiful I think that's what you've really taught me is like you cannot you have to go to the places where you really don't want to go. Like the mind doesn't want to go.

1:26:38 You want to feel the things that you were shown that you shouldn't be allowed to feel for all the reasons we talked about. Maybe it's

1:26:44 you, know,, conditioning, violence,, all, the things. And that's but that's where the you know, as David White says, right the well of grief, like that's where you go to find the gold coins at the bottom.

1:26:55 You, have, to, go, there., And, to, have, a companion that can go there with you unconditionally. Oh, that's a gift. And and look in your life. If I'm talking to the audience now, look in your life and see if that person or persons don't already exist

1:27:12 and, you, just, haven't, seen, it. Yeah., It's, like, maybe, we, can, kind, of, end it there, but what like there's a beautiful term again Tara Brock uses is uh taking the exquisite risk and that's it, isn't it? That's the risk because the risk is if I show this vulnerability uh to the people in my life, I will be rejected. They won't go there with me so I have to hide it. But what would it be like if we just took the risk once? Yeah, we may get burned. But we might find out that, okay, you get burned, but you're okay.

1:27:45 Isn't, that, a, wonderful, thing, to, find out? I didn't need their validation anyway.

1:27:50 Or, we, take, the, risk, and, we, realize,, oh, they are there for me. They love me way more than I thought. And actually, their love isn't dependent on me being this character, being a certain way. It's much deeper than that. And and I found that out again and again and again as I've taken that risk. It's like, oh, I thought

1:28:10 people, would, vomit, all, over, me, in disgust of if they actually saw what it was. I was just like

1:28:16 you, know,, like, get, out,, just, scream, in my face. But I was just hugged often like just like, oh, that's amazing. Thank you. So yeah. Yeah. See, see if see if that's possible, maybe.

1:28:30 Oh,, beautiful., What, did, you, say?, The exquisite The, exquisite, risk. The, exquisite, risk.

1:28:36 Risk. The, exquisite, risk, of, unbearable compassion. Yeah, that's, that's, our, book,, Simon., That's what we're going to do. Um

1:28:45 I, love, it. Yeah. Well,, go, safe. P., Well, we'll we'll chat soon. You know, I I was uh I was joking with my wife that I wanted to create or no, with my friend that I wanted to create a nonduel amusement park

1:29:00 and, like, you, know, the, the, cave, of, no self. The and and but the but the the restrooms were going to have signs that say pee here now. And that was it's a series of dad jokes just

1:29:15 it's, a, bit, of, a, roller, coaster, this conversation. It, it, really, is., Yeah., Yeah., I, apologize to everyone who had to put up with what just happened. Um I I love you, Simon. Thank you so much.

1:29:26 I'll, see, you, soon. This, was, gorgeous., Thanks., See, you, guys next time. Bye.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Taking the Exquisite Risk (with Simon Brown)"?

In order: 10:00 Maharaji; 1:10:00 K-pop Demon Hunters, Perfect Days; 1:20:00 The Exquisite Risk, David White, Perfect Days, Tara Brock.

What is mentioned in this Zubin Damania episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Ram Dass, Zubin Demania, K-pop Demon Hunters, Perfect Days, Maharaji, The Exquisite Risk. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Taking the Exquisite Risk (with Simon Brown)"?

The episode runs 1 h 30 min; the transcript is about 15,574 words in 206 timestamped sections.

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