#66 Start with Understanding: Change People's Minds Under Impossible Conditions with Jonah Berger

What this episode is about

Jonah Berger, a Wharton professor and expert on social influence, explores effective strategies for changing people's minds, drawing parallels with hostage negotiation techniques. He emphasizes that successful persuasion often hinges on understanding and communication, highlighting the importance of asking the right questions to encourage open dialogue.

Key takeaways

• People resist when pushed; effective persuasion seeks to pull them in with engagement instead.
• Hostage negotiators excel at changing minds through empathy, a tactic often overlooked in business contexts.
• Contrary to belief, more facts and figures can backfire; persuasion is often about emotional connection, not data overload.
• Success in changing minds stems from shared goals—align interests before expecting others to budge.
• Catchiness isn’t just luck; elements like storytelling and social proof are key to making ideas go viral.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Jonah Berger (Guest) · 19 min speaking
• Lynn Tomman (Host) · 12 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Jonah Bur, The Catalyst: How to Change Anyone's Mind, Apple Inc., Facebook

Notable quotes from "#66 Start with Understanding: Change People's Minds Under Impossible Conditions with Jonah Berger"

• And Columbia Lynn tomman hi everyone it's Lynn toen welcome to another episode today I'm excited to be with Jonah Bur he's a professor at the Wharton School at the University…

  about Jonah Bur · at 0:21

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Jonah Bur — Person · Main guest · 1 mention · first at 0:26
  Interview subject presented as a Wharton professor and expert on social influence and changing minds; he explains ideas from his books and related research.

Books & papers

• Contagious: How to Build Word of Mouth in the Digital Age — Book · Primary recommendation · 2 mentions
  Another of Jonah Berger's books, focusing on why things become popular and how to leverage word of mouth.
  Thousands of students and Executives and advised hundreds of companies including Apple Google Facebook and Nike he's written two books The Catalyst how to change anyone's mind…
• The Catalyst: How to Change Anyone's Mind — Book · Primary recommendation · 1 mention · first at 0:53
  One of Jonah Berger's books discussed in the episode, focusing on strategies for changing minds.
  Thousands of students and Executives and advised hundreds of companies including Apple Google Facebook and Nike he's written two books The Catalyst how to change anyone's mind…

Companies & orgs

• Apple Inc. — Company · Case study · 1 mention · first at 0:47
  Mentioned as one of the companies Jonah Berger has advised, highlighting his practical experience.
  An expert on the science of social influence word of mouth and why things become popular he's taught tens of thousands of students and Executives and advised hundreds of…
• Facebook — Company · Case study · 1 mention · first at 0:50
  Mentioned as one of the companies Jonah Berger has advised, highlighting his practical experience.
  An expert on the science of social influence word of mouth and why things become popular he's taught tens of thousands of students and Executives and advised hundreds of…
• Google LLC — Company · Case study · 1 mention · first at 0:50
  Mentioned as one of the companies Jonah Berger has advised, highlighting his practical experience.
  An expert on the science of social influence word of mouth and why things become popular he's taught tens of thousands of students and Executives and advised hundreds of…

Full transcript with timestamps

0:01 welcome to the three takeaways podcast which features short memorable conversations with the world's best thinkers Business Leaders writers politicians scientists and other newsmakers each episode ends with the three key takeaways that person has learned over their lives and their careers and now your host and board member of schools at Harvard Princeton and Columbia Lynn tomman hi everyone it's Lynn toen welcome to another episode today I'm excited to be with Jonah Bur he's a professor at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and an expert on getting people to change their minds he's also an expert on the science of social influence word of mouth and why things become popular he's taught tens of thousands of students and Executives and advised hundreds of companies including Apple Google Facebook and Nike he's written two books The Catalyst how to change anyone's mind and contagious why

0:59 things cat on both are terrific and I highly recommend them let me start by quoting Jonah quote everyone has something they want to change salespeople want to change their customers minds and marketers want to change purchase decisions employees want to change their boss's perspective and leaders want to change organizations parents want to change their children's Behavior startups want to change Industries nonprofits want want to change the world unquote Jon is going to tell us how to get people to change their minds using methods similar to hostage negotiators and hostage negotiators work under seemingly impossible conditions trying to get terrorists to let hostages go or trying to get a bank robber who's locked himself in a bank with hostages to come out by himself even though he knows he's talking to a police officer and that his life is going to change forever when he comes out according to Jonah a hostage negotiator

2:03 gets the bank robber to come out by himself nine out of 10 times and he comes out just because someone asks so Jonah is going to share what works to change people's minds even under almost impossible conditions he's also going to share how to make things catch on and go viral Jonah welcome and thanks so much for our conversation today thanks so much for having me my pleasure Jonah how did you first become interested in changing people's minds I'm an academic at heart love doing academic research have been teaching out the Warton school for something like 15 years but a few years ago my life changed a little bit as you mentioned I wrote a book called contagious which is my first book and things changed for me a bit after writing that book before writing that book I sort of spent 90 95% of my time doing teaching and research and once in a while might have talked to a company in a consulting or speaking capacity but

2:58 once I wrot contagious I made made the New York Times bestseller list W Journal bestseller list it's now out in a million copies in 35 languages around the world I started getting a lot of calls from companies and organizations that wanted help they wanted to help getting a product to catch on they wanted to help getting a service to get traction they wanted to make content get attention online and I learned a lot about business from working with these different Industries everything from Industries we think about a lot like consumer package goods and Technology to Industries we don't think as much about like aircraft engines and B2B Logistics Services I learned a lot about marketing a lot about business and a lot about the way the technology is shaping consumer and customer Behavior but what I realize is that all these clients at the core had the same issue which is they all had something that they wanted to change

3:43 just as you nicely outline for the marketers or sales folks it might be a customer client for the leadership or sort of organizational development folks it's changing company culture or getting a certain project or initiative to get traction startups want to catch on nonprofits want their issues to get attention and people were trying different things and they weren't working and so I started to wonder well could there be a better way and I applied lots of tools in contagious and we got some of the traction that we were looking for but there were still tools that were outside the book that I was starting to use that I realized might deserve more attention and so it really started from the question of could there be a better way to change minds and if so what might that way be so how do most people try to change someone's mind and does it work and if not why not think for a moment about a chair a physical

4:31 world moving something in the physical world what do we often do well we often try to push the thing right if you've got a chair or you've got a refrigerator whatever it is you want to move you think if I push it in the right direction it'll go and indeed we tend to think that same way in the social world so when I interviewed thousands of Executives from a variety of different Industries and a variety of different verticals and I asked them hey what's something you want to change and what's something you've try to change it over 98% of the time people list some version of pushing what I mean by that I mean adding more facts more figures more information sending one more email making one more phone call one more PowerPoint presentation we tend to think that if we just give people more information they'll come around if I just dump more stuff on them to push them in the right direction they'll go

5:15 and while that works really well for chairs if you look at people you'll see something kind of interesting when you push chairs chairs slide across the floor when you push people they often push back they often resist they often dig in their heels they're often less likely to do what we want them to do do rather than more and so I realized if pushing doesn't work well could there be a better way tell us about how pushing telling people what to do can actually backfire as we just talked about can you lead people to resist or dig in their heels a bit and when people are push they push back and so we have this sort of ingrain Desire not to go along and so it actually turns out a better way to change people's minds actually comes from chemistry if you look at chemistry change in chemistry it's extremely hard right I think about turning carbon into diamonds or plant matter into oil it takes forever takes a really long time

6:04 and so in the lab chemists often add temperature and pressure they squeeze things together they heat them up they add energy to the system with the idea that adding energy to the system will make change happen but it turns out there's a special set of substances that chemists often add that make change happen faster and easier they do everything from clean the Grime on our contact lenses to clean the Grime on our car's engine and multiple Nobel prizes have been won for Innovations in this space face but most interesting is how these substan create change they don't add more energy they don't turn up the temperature increase the pressure what they do is they lower the barrier to change they actually make the same amount of change happen with less energy not more and very simply these substances are called Catalyst as we think about catalysts in the social World We tend to think about someone as

6:49 a catalyst if they're a change agent oh so and so is a catalyst or this person was the Catalyst that drove this action but Catalyst actually have a very specific meaning which is not just that they're a change agent that they created that change through lowering the barrier to change and so I think the same tools if you look across great change agents are true in the social world as well great change agents great catalysts don't say well what could I do to get someone to change instead they say well why hasn't that person changed already what's stopping them what are the barriers or obstacles that are getting in the way whether that person is a colleague whether that person is a peer whether that person is a customer whe that person is society around a particular issue what are the barriers or obstacles that are getting in the way of change and how by understanding them and mitigating them

7:34 can we make change more likely I think a good analogy to think of is imagine you're parked in your car you get out of a game or from going shopping whatever it might be get in your car your car is parked on a hill so you stick your key in the ignition you turn the key you put your foot on the gas if the car doesn't go we often just think well I must need more gas right if I step on that gas the car will move same with change right we think if we just push harder people will change but if the parking brake on that car is engaged it doesn't matter how much we step on the gas the car is not going to go anywhere and so the same is true as change agents too often we step on the gas we've got to think about what are the parking brakes right what are the barriers or obstacles that are getting in the way of change and how by removing those parking brakes can we make change more likely yeah we all

8:19 think that people are rational and by making rational arguments like don't smoke that people will stop smoking or do whatever you want and it just doesn't work that way I was fascinated that you started by analyzing good hostage negotiators what's their approach and why does it work so well I found and first of all I want to thank the hos negotiators who spent time talking to me because they obvious have more important things to do than talk to me but one guy said it very nicely he said look novice hos negotiators come in and they try to start with influence they say hey come out with your hands up they say hey this is what I want do the thing that I want and that's indeed what we often do is change agents right right we think well look I'll just tell everybody in the meeting what I think is the right course of action I'll just tell that customer client what I want them to do I'll just give them information and they'll change

9:08 but as he talked about what experienced negotiators would do what experts do is they realize they have to start with the person they're trying to change because telling someone to come out with their hands up or telling them what you want them to do isn't going to work you can't change someone if you don't understand them and so great negotiators really start with understanding they start by understanding who is the person that I'm trying to change and how by better understanding them and what they need can we make change more likely can I tell a quick story is that okay yeah absolutely one guy was telling this amazing story and it's a little sad but it ends well he was talking about a story about someone who's thinking about committing suicide and the reason he was thinking about cing suicide sort of lost his job and he wants to take care of his kids but he can't anymore because he can't find work and he thinks the

9:52 insurance policy is the only way to have his kids have a good future and so he thinks hey if I kill myself my kids future will be taken care and so this H negotiator shows up on the scene and the issue is that actually the insurance policy won't pay out so if he commits suicide the insurance policy is not going to pay out and if you tell the guy that is he's just going to rationally go oh you're right I really should stop thinking about this or is he just goingon to he's emotionally on edge is he just going to do something that might hurt himself and so the H negotiator comes in and he starts what he does with every negotiation not by saying hey this is what I want but saying hey this is my name are you okay and the guy says yeah I'm okay okay everyone's trying to tell they not commit suicide but yeah I'm okay and he says oh you know can I get you anything what do you need and they start having a conversation and he

10:37 starts trying to figure out why is the guy here right and the guy's talking about look I've got these two boys and I want them to grow up to be great young men and I take them fishing and I teach them manners but look I don't have any money to support them and so I'm worried if I can't support them they're not going to have this life and so I am here today because I want to help them out so they're having this conversation they're going back and forth negotiators asking all these questions and finally he goes after the guy talking for a couple minutes go wow you sound like you love your kids a lot and the guy goes yeah yeah I do and then negotiator goes well if you kill yourself today your kids are going to lose the best friend that they've ever had and then he just pauses there and lets that sink in because what he's done is he said look I'm going to start with understanding but by understanding you I'm going to show you

11:23 that the best way to get to where I wanted to get in the first place which is you not committing suicide the best way for you to get what you want help your kids is actually to do what I wanted in the first place and the guy goes guy sits about it he listens he thinks about it doesn't right away do anything but he eventually stands down doesn't commit suicide and goes and finds another job and has a happy life now that's a story I hope we never find ourselves in but I think it highlights the power of understanding the person we're trying to change great change agents don't just say this is what I want do it great change AG to say well why are you where you are where am I and how can I get you from where you are to where I am by better understanding you and so by starting with understanding we can really show people that the best path to achieve their goals is something that's consistent with our goals as well

12:10 starting with understanding sounds absolutely critical one of your other strategies is providing a menu can you tell us about that yeah the issue both of these strategies are following against is this idea of reactant which we talked about briefly and the notion is when pushed people push back when you ask people to do something when you tell people to do something they push back why because they want to have freedom and autonomy I want to feel like I am making my own choices I in the driver seat of my own life why did I buy a certain product use a certain service do a certain thing I did it because I wanted to I am in the driver seat of my life but as soon as we whether we as a marketer a colleague a peer a boss whatever it might be as soon as we come in and try to influence someone now it's not clear whether they're doing something because they wanted to do it or because wanted to do it and the more

13:00 they feel like they're doing it because we wanted to do it the less ined they are in doing it there Bally an ingrained anti-p persuasion radar it's almost like a missile defense system that goes off when we feel like someone's trying to persuade us and so we engage in a set of defensive measures right we avoid or ignore the message maybe we delete the email we turn off the television to avoid being persuaded or or even worse we counter argue yeah we're sitting they're listening but we're really thinking about all the reasons why we don't want to do what someone suggested and so the challenge here is we can't tell people what to do the more we sell them the more they push back so we've got to get rather than sell them we've got to get them to buy in rather than persuade them we've got to get them to persuade themselves and so at the court we need to do is allow for agency give them back some sense of freedom and

13:46 control and this idea of providing a menu is one of the ways to do that one way to reduce reactants by giving people back autonomy and super simple usually when we're presenting something that we want people to do we say this is great and here's why and we list all the reasons why we think someone should do something and people are sitting there they might seem like they're listening but really they're counterarguing to think about all the reasons it won't work and so what great change agents what great catalysts do is rather than giving people one option hey I think we should do this instead they say hey I think we should do this or this which one do you think is better because they're giving people a choice right now suddenly people have a different job rather than think about well I don't like this thing and here are all the reasons why now I'm thinking about well which of these things do I like better

14:30 and because I'm focused on which one I like better I'm much more likely to pick one of them at the end of the interaction and it's called providing a menu because notice what we're not doing we're not telling people what to do but we're also not giving them unlimited choice we're saying here is a limited set of options choose from within this Choice set and that will guide your choice in the right direction and so we're not forcing people to do something we're guiding their choice but because we've given them that freedom they're much more interested in going along Jonah can you give some examples perhaps parents or doctors or Ad Agency or consulting firm how would you apply that Consultants talk about this all the time so they say look rather than giving the client a solution which they'll hate because it's a solution instead we say hey look here are two or three solutions we think these two or three things would

15:16 be the best direction to go in which one do you guys think is better as parents you tell your kid to put on their pajamas they say no at least if you have a young child if you have an older child they're already putting their pajamas by themselves but if you tell your four-year-old to eat their broccoli they say no not because they hate broccoli because they want to express their independence if you instead say hey which do you want to eat first your chicken or your broccoli or you say hey which do you want to put on first your pajama bottoms or your pajama top they're going oh which one do I want to put on first that pajama bot I don't know let me think about what I want to do and because they're focused on what they want to do they forgot about the other option which is running around the house naked and never putting their clothes on right or having ice cream for dinner they're focused more on the

15:57 options at hand than the options at at hand but that makes them more likely to change another one of your tactics for getting people to change their mind or do what you want them to is the tactic of asking questions rather than making statements why do questions work and can you give some examples sure let me start with an example I was talking to a startup founder a couple years ago and she was talking about how trouble motivating te sort of a big project coming up and everybody needed to put in extra hours and people didn't want to do it and so she calls a meeting she says hey what kind of company do we want to be a good company or a great company everyone says oh of course we want to be a great company but then she asks a real question she says okay how do we get there how do we become a great company and she starts getting some feedback and questions do a few things some of which we've talked about already first as

16:50 we've talked about right questions shift the job of the listener Ren sitting there and thinking about all the reasons why they don't like what you're talking about and thinking about all the arguments that go against what you're saying instead they're thinking about their opinion which they're more than happy to give you right because it's their opinion and so they're happy to give you their opinion that's good thing number one you deactivating that anti-prion radar good thing number two though is consistent with that starting with understanding idea that we talked about before you're collecting information because you're not just asking any questions you're asking questions that help you figure out how to enact the change that you want to create you're thinking about questions that allow you to collect information too often I think we've talked about this a little bit already but as change

17:31 agents you know we know the outcome we want to achieve and we focus on that we don't know enough about the people that we're trying to change but questions allow us to get that information now we know more about our audience now we know more as that hoso did about why this person is there and so questions help us but the third thing is that questions encourage commitment to the conclusion because if that boss says Hey how do we become a great company and someone says hey I think we need to do XYZ and then she says fantastic we're going to start doing XYZ it's a lot harder for that person to say I don't want to do it because it was their idea in the first place essentially what she's done is she's encouraged commitment to the conclusion she's gotten them to put a stick in the sand or a foot down whatever it might be and now when she comes back to say great we're going to do what you suggested it's their idea

18:20 they're already bought into it somebody recently I was talking to said you know so funny my boss lies feeling something is his idea I said the funny part about that is is not just your boss Everyone likes do something is their idea right because if we have ownership of it we're more about into it we want to see it succeed it's not just a thing it's our thing and so the more we can get people to buy into that process and be part of that process the more they'll support us along the way through the solution and so in some we got to give away ownership we've got to stop thinking about is it my idea or not but how I can get people on board by giving that idea away Jonah whose mind cannot be changed or under what circumstances is it impossible to change somebody's mind I think the problem is not whose mind can we change or if someone's mind is impossible to change and the problem is more about the timeline that we seem to

19:13 set for ourselves I think given enough time you can change anybody's mind but it really depends on whether what we're trying to change is a pebble or a boulder and what do I mean by that sometimes you're trying to get people to do something really small like hey I'd like you to try this new toothpaste I that's not a life shocking change it's a pretty small thing maybe I put a trial sample of it in a hotel room and you try it you end up buying it right it's not that big of a deal but if I'm asking you to put solar panels on your house or I'm asking you to change political parties that's a big change that's a boulder that's going to require a lot more work to get that change to happen and I think some of us just think well it'll just happen overnight one message will magically unlock it and there are messages and ways of commun unting that will help more but if you look at the Grand Canyon the Grand Canyon wasn't

20:03 formed overnight it wasn't just like oh boom and there's the Grand Canyon right it was like a little trickle of water from rain that turned into a stream that turned into a river that turned into a Gorge that eventually formed the Grand Canyon and so really big changes are going to take more time it's not impossible I talk about in a book of people that change political parties I talk about people that end up voting for things that they were initially against so change is possible but I think we have to be real istic about how long it may take some cases it may be really easy and it may happen tomorrow but in other cases it may be more difficult I'd love to talk to you more about the Catalyst but I also want to ask you about contagious and things catching on what are some of the most memorable things which I've caught on and why did they catch on there are six key factors that we've found Drive things to catch

20:53 on sometimes we think it's random or it's luck or it's chance you have to bottle lightning or get lucky for something to go viral or something to become popular but we've looked at thousands of pieces of online content we've looked at tens of thousands of Brands we've looked at millions of purchases around the United States and around the world and again and again we see the same six factors come up and so in contagious I put those factors in a framework called the steps framework and that stands for social currency triggers emotion public practical value and stories each of those is a psychological driver of why people talk and why they share and leads all sorts of products services and ideas and behaviors to catch on and so it's not about being the most persuasive Communicator it's not about being a digital influencer that we have time we can get into whether it's actually valuable or not it's really

21:43 about crafting content and messages and ideas and products and services that are more likely to be shared if we follow those steps the social currencies triggers emotion public practical value and stories we can make anything catch on I've worked with hundreds of companies and organizations to apply these ideas and sometimes I think people think oh something has to be naturally remarkable to become popular we talk about a lot of boring things every day we talk about what we're having for breakfast or lunch we talk about music artists we like or what we're doing this weekend not because someone's paying us giving us a referral bonus but because of the psychology of sharing if we understand how conversations work if we understand why people talk about and why people share some things we can really get them to share anything let me ask you about a couple of those but before we get there let me ask you first does

22:33 it take a huge marketing budget that's an easy answer no there's so many things that catch on without a huge budget we have the notion that the best things always went out the highest quality things or Price really matters a lot is this the cheapest thing or big advertising budget mattered a lot is this the most advertised thing but take a look at baby names for example there's no difference in price baby names there's no difference in quality there no advertising no one's out there saying Josh is the best name ever I'm going to advertise that it's the best name and yet certain names catch on and others don't and so it's not just about things like quality I wish it was about quality but it's about the motivations that drive sharing word of mouth is a much more powerful tool than traditional advertising research shows for example that word of mouth generates more than twice the sales of traditional

23:22 advertising and shows that a dollar spent on Word of Mouth goes 10 times as far as a dollar spent on traditional advertising that's not meant to say that advertising is not useful it can be useful in raising awareness but really when it comes to driving persuasion changing Minds driving action that's where a word of mouth becomes very important because it's more trusted and it's more targeted we know that companies and organizations are trying to convince us even nonprofits even political candidates they say well I'm not selling something I'm just trying to get people to do social good that may be true but you're still asking people to do something in particular and and people are smart they know that nonprofits are going to say that this particular cause is the most important cause no no nonprofit says their cause is not the most important cause but because people know that companies and

24:09 organizations are self-interested they're less likely to trust what companies and organizations have to say more likely to trust their peers right because your peers will tell it to you straight they'll say hey this was great or hey this wasn't so good and because of that we're much more likely to believe them and there's also the targeting benefit of Word of Mouth right people tend to share information with others they think would find it interesting and so word of mouth is a great way to find interested potential folks for a product new potential customers for a political campaign new potential voters people tend to be friends with others like them tend to know people that might be interested in what they're interested in and can Target that information to those individuals Jonah you mentioned your six principles your first one is social currency can you tell us more about it and give an example the idea of social

24:56 currency very simple is the better something makes people look the more likely they are to share it so if you're walking around New York City around the Lower East Side and your stomach is rumbling there's actually a restaurant you might see that has a big hot dog shaped sign with the words eat me written on it it will look like mustard if you walk down the flight of stairs into that restaurant you'll be in a restaurant called cff dogs amazing hot dogs best hot dog place in New York City but if you finish eating your hot dog you'll notice in the corner of the room there's a phone booth and you walk inside that phone booth it's pretty cramped it's a phone booth after all but there's a roted out phone stick your finger in the number three go around in a circle and hold the phone up to your ear well the phone will actually ring it'll go ring ring and then someone will pick up the other line and they'll ask

25:41 you whether you have a reservation and the first time I heard this story I said know a reservation what could I possibly have a reservation for but if you're lucky and a friend of yours happen to make a reservation or they happen to have space the back of that phone booth will open and you'll be led into a secret bar called please don't tell now police onel is violated like every law of communications we can think of there's no sign onside the street there's no sign inside the restaurant they everything they can to make themselves difficult to find and yet every day they're full 3 p.m. phone lines open up by 3:30 all the seats are gone people frantically have to hit redial again and again trying to get through and it's not lack of competition right there are dozens of other similar places within a few block of radius so what did they do to cut through the Clutter and they did something really

26:26 simple they made themselves a secret let me tell you a little secret about Secrets if you think about the last time someone told you something and they told you not to tell anyone else think about what you did with that information if you're like most people you probably told someone right because having access to information that not everyone else does makes you look smart and makes you look in the know that's one example of what I call social currency what we share is a signal of identity just like the car we drive and just like the clothes we wear the things we talk about and the things share affect how other people see us and so too often whether we're marketers whether we're leaders whatever ground swell of movement we're trying to build we think the answerers to make ourselves look good let me tell people why we're great and they'll want to be participating in it what social currency says we got to think about our

27:15 audience if we can make them look good they'll talk and share to get that social currency and bring us along for the ride people love talking about their frequent flyer status or pulling out their American Express black cards or sharing pictures of themselves on vacation because it makes them look good and so as Brands and organizations if we can give away that social currency we can make things scarce or exclusive make people feel like Insider smart special in the know if we can give away some of that social currency we can get people to talk about us triggers is another one of your principles can you tell us briefly about triggers and how you can create them the trigger idea very simply the quick version It's top of mind is tip of tongue we don't only talk about things we like we don't only talk about things that are exciting we talk about things we're thinking about so if I said peanut butter and you might think of

28:03 jelly if I said rum and you might think of coke these things are linked in our mind one is linked to the other even if it's not there and the same thing is true in the world around us right we tend to talk about what's top of mind we tend to talk about things we're thinking about someone ask us a question like you've been asking me today if I sit there in silence gets a little awkward so I want to fill in that conversational space what's a great way to fill in that conversational space talk about what whatever's top of mind we're not always looking for the best story or the most interesting thing that happened to us we also talk a lot about things that are top of mind which means as companies and organizations and groups that want to generate Word of Mouth we've got to make ourselves top of line we've got to link ourselves to something the environment to make people think about us more often

28:47 the brand KitKat for example linked themselves to coffee and saw an increase of 200 million dollars in sales not because they changed how much people like the brand but because they changed how often it came to mind now when people thought about drinking coffee they thought about having a Kit Kat and so it came to mind a lot and it changed behavior and so triggers is all about making sure we come to mind more often before I ask for the three takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today is there anything else you'd like to mention is there anything else that I should have asked you but didn't no I think the only quick thing I would say is we are an amazing time in society's history we are learning more and more about Behavioral Science and more and more about data science than we ever have before and so I think if you are in the business of changing Minds which means that you are person we're all in

29:34 the business of changing someone's mind the more we can understand about human behavior the more successful we're going to be it's not enough as you said earlier to assume that people are rational or economic actors we've got to understand the psychology of decision- making and the people we're trying to change to most effectively change them and what are the three takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today the first thing I would say is start with the people that were trying to change whether you want somebody to catch on or you want to change someone's mind start with understanding them second start by understanding the barriers that are getting in between them and the outcome that you want to achieve the more you understand about the process to which they get to you the more effective that you'll be and the last just on an unrelated note to what we talked about today is just I think

30:16 the power of curiosity as we get older it's easy to get in our old habits and see things the same way but the more we can look at things with new eyes the more we can always be curious I think we can live like always learning and enjoying it more as well Jonah thank you so much this has been great awesome thank you so much for having me if you enjoy today's episode and would like to receive the show notes or get new Fresh weekly episodes be sure to sign up for our newsletter at 3 takeaways

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "#66 Start with Understanding: Change People's Minds Under Impossible Conditions with Jonah Berger"?

Jonah Berger (Guest), Lynn Tomman (Host).

What is "#66 Start with Understanding: Change People's Minds Under Impossible Conditions with Jonah Berger" about?

Jonah Berger, a Wharton professor and expert on social influence, explores effective strategies for changing people's minds, drawing parallels with hostage negotiation techniques. He emphasizes that successful persuasion often hinges on understanding and communication, highlighting the importance of asking the right questions to encourage open dialogue.

What is mentioned in this 3 Takeaways episode?

6 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Jonah Bur, Contagious: How to Build Word of Mouth in the Digital Age, The Catalyst: How to Change Anyone's Mind, Apple Inc., Facebook, Google LLC. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "#66 Start with Understanding: Change People's Minds Under Impossible Conditions with Jonah Berger"?

The episode runs 31 min; the transcript is about 6,655 words in 39 timestamped sections.

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