Transcript

WHY MORE PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING FREELANCING: HOW TO START TODAY || JAMIE BRINDLE || EPISODE 072

From Code To Winning · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 51 min · 10,215 words · 101 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "WHY MORE PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING FREELANCING: HOW TO START TODAY || JAMIE BRINDLE || EPISODE 072", an episode of Code To Winning published December 20, 2025 (51 min, about 10,215 words). It mentions 25 people, works and ideas, including Freelancing, Artificial Intelligence, Digital Product, Jamie Brindle, Instagram.

What this episode is about

The conversation explores the rising trend of freelancing, particularly accelerated by the events of 2020, projecting that a significant portion of the workforce will choose this path by 2027. Jamie Brindle shares his journey from a young freelancer to a thriving business owner, emphasizing the importance of diversifying revenue streams and leveraging personal expertise to support others in building their businesses.

Key takeaways

  • Freelancers will dominate the workforce by 2027; corporate cubicles, you're officially on notice!
  • The gig economy's secret weapon? Wisdom and experience, not just work outputs.
  • From high school freelancer to business mogul—age is just a number in the freelance hustle!
  • Remember: Clients pay for problem-solving, not just pretty videos.
  • Freelancer meetups: Turning isolated hustlers into a supportive community army!

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Freelancing, Adrien Purr, Christo, Digital Product
  2. – 10:00: Freelancing, Instagram, Comcast, Digital Product
  3. – 15:00: Airbnb, Bloomberg, Freelancing, Jamie Brindle
  4. – 25:00: Ora House Studio
  5. – 30:00: Referral plateau, Apple Podcast, Digital Product, Freelancing
  6. – 35:00: Attorney General, Digital Product, Freelancing, Productized services
  7. – 45:00: Abundance mindset, Attorney General, Freelancing, Negotiate the scope, not your rate
  8. – 50:00: chat GPT, Fractional CFO
  9. – 51:04: Freelancing, Instagram, Jamie Brindle

Notable quotes from "WHY MORE PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING FREELANCING: HOW TO START TODAY || JAMIE BRINDLE || EPISODE 072"

  • Freelancing has become ever so popular especially from 2020 due to co Absolutely.
    about Freelancing · at
  • So, without further ado, the man, the myth, the very legend himself, Jamie Brindle. How you doing today, sir?
    about Jamie Brindle · at
  • It was great. I mean it was we I told all the it was we had we started with a panel. It was me, Christo, James Barnard and Adrien Purr who are all creative entrepreneurs that…
    about Christo · at
  • Flash forward to today and ironically 2020 you mentioned is when we started our Instagram.
    about Instagram · at
  • And I've noticed that because, I'll be calling like an Airbnb call center.
    about Airbnb · at
  • That I've I've I've declared this plateau for freelancers I call it the referral plateau right and it's I think so many freelancers when they hit that moment where it's like…
    about Referral plateau · at
  • Complimentary freelancers or with, clients that have clients. look at some productized services, look at some digital products. is it's what we talked about earlier. You're diversifying your revenue pie. you know that's that's you're.
    about Productized services · at
  • Productized services but do you also think the mentality behind the fact that I'm not a big corporation I'm just a freelancer do you think that has a big impact where they're…
    about Attorney General · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Jamie Brindle — Person · 3 mentions · first at
  • Christo — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • James Barnard — Person · 1 mention · first at
    It was great. I mean it was we I told all the it was we had we started with a panel. It was me, Christo, James Barnard and Adrien Purr who are all creative entrepreneurs that…
  • Adrien Purr — Person · 1 mention · first at
    All the it was we had we started with a panel. It was me, Christo, James Barnard and Adrien Purr who are all creative entrepreneurs that have you know done extremely well for…

Companies & orgs

  • Instagram — Company · 3 mentions · first at
  • Comcast — Company · 1 mention · first at
    And negotiate, the air time with the local Fox, NBC, ABC, Comcast, what have you. and that's you know that's that's what got me started. yeah it was it's you know flash forward to today and ironically 2020 you mentioned is when we.
  • Airbnb — Company · 1 mention · first at
  • Bloomberg — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Outsourced from a different country that they can operate 24/7. when I did my internship in Bloomberg in New York before I graduated college their call center was located in…
  • Ora House Studio — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Agree more. And I've seen that as well with and I was telling them the other time that Ora House Studio out of all the studios I've done, I've done also 10 different states.…
  • Apple Podcast — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Oh my gosh, that's so amazing. They're the first ones to go leave a review and like my Apple podcast. What I'm trying to say is the fact that I don't even like whenever the…
  • chat GPT — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Like wildly successful businessmen are all online talking about it. you ask Chat GPT, it'll read every book on the subject and tell you what you need to be doing. so it's just yeah, it goes back to what we're saying.
  • Fox — Company · 1 mention
  • Gap — Company · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

Places & events

  • Malibu Pier — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Get the ocean. If you're in Los Angeles, just go down there. I went down to Malibu Pier and I was just like just getting just the smell of the ocean, you know. But how you doing today?

Full transcript with timestamps

The majority of the American workforce alone is going to be freelancers by 2027. Like we're changing the shape of work. We're changing the shape of what work looks like worldwide. I mean it's not that statistic is unique to America but I mean across the world you know it's it's going this direction.

Freelancing has become ever so popular especially from 2020 due to co Absolutely.

And when did you start? I started freelancing in 2007 maybe 2006 2007 I was in high school still 17 years old is when I started. My wife and I are business partners but we were at a stage of our production studio career where we were looking to diversify our revenue. So it's like we had scaled our B2B client-based service substantially to where we had you know teams flying out to different venues to film and we had editors and we you know what have you. But we wanted to kind of d-risk the business a little bit and diversify the revenue pie. And so we started looking at digital products and we're thinking, you know, well, that would mean we we'd have to get on social media and start, you know, selling on the internet. And the plan A was, you know, take the byproduct of all the things that we developed for delivering for our customers. So the templates and the, you know, animation rigs and

everything and sell them to people that maybe couldn't afford to work with us. So we were going to build an audience of our customers. And then co happened and Courtney and I, you know, sat in our second bedroom office and said, "What if instead of that we helped people that look like us build their business, right?" Says we take the byproduct that maybe we weren't necessarily accounting for, which was our wisdom and experience of doing this for 15 years at the time. My question now to you, what was the biggest mental shift going from surviving freelancer to a business owner that's thriving? What is that big mental shift that occurs?

I would say one of the biggest ones was realizing that business is the exchange of money for solutions, not the exchange of money for the thing I do. So for years I thought, okay, people are paying me because I make good videos, you know, like and that's dangerous because, you know, you get lucky enough times and you think that that's the reason they're paying you. And really the reason that people are paying you is because you're solving a problem that's worth more than the money they're giving you. The code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow. If you are interested in learning a bit more about freelancing whether you want to start upscale or just in the freelancing business this is the episode for you. I have a gentleman who is an expert in this field is going to be talking a bit more about freelancing. Um yes if you learn want to learn a bit more about that. Um yeah we're going to have just

break down the fundamentals. We're going to break down the necessities, how to start, how to upscale, uh, you name it. So, without further ado, the man, the myth, the very legend himself, Jamie Brindle. How you doing today, sir?

Good, man. How you doing? Caught you off guard there. I was going to say, I don't I don't know, man. I, you know, I should have brought a tie just for this shirt, though. That would have we would have we would have fit better together here.

You're good, brother. You're good. No, I've been watching um your content. I know I reached out to you about like a few months back. We just couldn't make it work.

We're busy men. But hey, we did it. We're here. We're here now. You know, I had a two twohour window off. I did a few interviews yesterday. I went to the beach. I'm like, I need to get the ocean. If you're in Los Angeles, just go down there. I went down to um Malibu Pier and I was just like just getting just the smell of the ocean, you know. But how you doing today?

Touch the Pacific. I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Yeah, we're, you know, it's traffic was reasonable. Speaking of LA, uh g getting down here, but we we're hot off of a uh a big meetup that we did uh like three or four days ago with a bunch of freelancers in town and and it's, you know, and then there's a bunch of freelancers here at a at a convention downtown right now. So, I mean, it's it's a happening week for freelancers, for for creative business owners, and you know, just folks who are who are independent operators. So, it's it's fun to be it's it's a fun week for us.

No, no, that's awesome. And how was the event? like how um what was the setup like?

It was great. I mean it was we I told all the it was we had we started with a panel. It was me, Christo, James Barnard and Adrien Purr who are all creative entrepreneurs um that have you know done extremely well for themselves and you know now have made a career out of inspiring others to do the same. Um, and I told the guys as we were headed up to the panel, I was like, "Living room vibes, guys. Living room vibes." You know, like I want this to feel like just a living room with a bunch of creatives together. We're just family, like just just hashing it out. Um and that metriculated through the whole night and it was reported back to me that that was the sense that everybody got right which is just the the the insights that were being shared the you know the the solutions that were being discussed were all I guess the revelatory thing was that we're all kind of dealing with the it doesn't matter what stage we're at

we're all kind of dealing with a version of the same stuff you know and um the message of the night was you know a lot of the people walked into that room thinking that they were

alone own and building something on their own and they walked out of the room realizing, oh no, I'm I'm part of a movement. I'm part of something really big now because the majority of the American workforce alone is going to be freelancers by 2027. Like it's like we're changing the shape of of work. We're changing the shape of what work looks like worldwide. I mean, it's not that statistic is unique to America, but I mean across across the world, you know, it's it's going this direction. So, um, it was cool to get us all in a room and and realize just how strong we are, you know.

I love that. I love that. Um, freelancing has become ever so popular, especially from 2020 due to co

Absolutely. And when did you start? I started freelancing in 2007 maybe. 2006, 2007. I was in high school still. 17 years old is when I started. And um,

so you're a 9090 baby. I am a 89 baby. Okay. Yeah. So, and the um when I got started,

social media wasn't a thing. I'm I'm in digital video. That was my, you know, my my career for 17 years. Um and the only place for digital video to go was television, right? So, so 17-year-old Jamie would go door to door knocking on local businesses. Doortodoor. We got that in common. Uh knocking on local businesses. uh and asking, "Hey, do you need a TV commercial? I do TV commercials." Right? And so obviously over time I learned there's a better way to position yourself than I do TV commercials. Do you need one? You know, uh but you know, all it took was one. Uh and then that person knew somebody and then that person knew somebody and before you knew it, I was, you know, 17, 18 years old. I'd go film a commercial and negotiate, you know, the the uh air time with the local Fox, NBC, ABC, Comcast, what have you. Um and and that's you know that's that's what got me started. Uh yeah it was it's you know

flash forward to today and and and ironically 2020 you mentioned is when we started our Instagram.

Wow. Um because you know we we were at a stage my when I say we I'm talking about my wife and I. My wife and I are business partners. But we were at a stage of our production studio career where we were looking to diversify our revenue. So, it's like we had, you know, we had scaled our our B2B client-based service substantially to where we had, you know, teams flying out to different venues to film and we had editors and we, you know, what have you. Um, uh, but we wanted to kind of derisk the business a little bit and diversify the revenue pie. And so, we started looking at digital products and we're thinking, you know well

that would mean we we'd have to get on social media um, and and start, you know, selling on the internet. And the the plan A was, you know, take the um the byproduct of all the things that we developed for for delivering for our customers. So the templates and the, you know, animation rigs and everything and sell them to people that maybe couldn't afford to work with us. So we were going to build an audience of our customers. Um, and then COVID happened and Courtney and I, you know, sat in our second bedroom uh, office and said, "What if instead of that we helped people that look like us build their business, right?" Says, "We take the byproduct that maybe we weren't necessarily accounting for, which was our wisdom and experience of doing this for 15 years at the time." um and and and and you know, put that on social media and help folks who are maybe losing their jobs um or have a little extra time now they're

working from home for the year and let them know, hey, something wonderful has just happened. As horrific as COVID is and the the repercussions of co um you know have you now have this opportunity to build something on your own

and it's never been simpler to build something on your own, right? Um it's there's never been more assets available to somebody on that journey. And so that's that's what kicked us off in 2020. And you know, I think there was a just a I mean, we tapped into the zeitgeist because it was uh I think within a few months we had a thousand followers on Instagram and then two weeks later we had 5,000 followers and then two weeks later we had 100,000 followers. It was just everybody was very interested in what this journey looks like.

Wow, that is crazy. But I also wanted to ask a few question. You know, obviously with freelancing, do you think there is um competitive edge for those that outsource to outside the United States uh as compared to locally within the United States. The reason I say that um I have about half of the people that edit and do all my work are locally. either have to be like within Utah because but we release so much of content and sometimes we have to be at a fast pace where we're still delegating and doing multiple stuff where we also end up outsourcing outside like the United States and and obviously due to like timing and how things work like they still get the work done but do you think because of the standard of living and how prices are in the United States it's a little harder for those that are within the US as compared to when they outsource like out out the United States?

I think it all depends on what problem you're trying to solve. like if you're trying to solve the problem of I don't have money then yeah the maybe take a look outside the the US where your money can move a little further

um and you know and still do some good for the folks that you're hiring um but you know like you mentioned in Salt Lake it's like if you're trying to solve the problem of you [snorts] know something that's localized that you need somebody in the room for then that's that's where you got to go. So I and I think that too many freelancers um you know and but the other thing to say is that just because you're not speaking to freelancers that aren't in the US that doesn't mean your only play is to play the the pricing game. You know like there are plenty of freelancers that aren't in the US that we we pay way more than you freelancers in the US that we work with. Um because you know we're spending against an expensive problem. So it's like we're happy to you know if that person's got the fix that's the person I'm going to hire you know. Um but if like if you know looking for reasons uh geographically speaking you know that

obviously budget could be one. Um another one that's interesting is u if you want your business uh to never sleep right so it's like if when you're sleeping your team you know is on a different time uh you know in a different time zone and they're just waking up and they're getting started right and then they go to bed and you're just waking up and you're getting started. So, uh, that's that's another strategy to to put to work as well.

And I I've noticed that because, um, I'll be calling like an an Airbnb call center.

Yeah. And then you hear like um um an Asian or Eastern uh, like accent and you could tell [snorts] that it's been outsourced from a different country that they can operate 24/7. when I did my internship in Bloomberg uh in New York um uh before I graduated college um their call center was located in multiple different countries and because they have to be able to work with customers that can always be on their terminal 24/7. So even though you're calling in the US and you got a problem with your terminal at like 3:00 in the morning, you're going to be calling and potentially could be somebody in South Africa or like in the United Kingdom that could be answering your phone call.

So, I think um I completely understand what you're saying for even for me like um I've had multiple different editors and the one editor that could edit the way I want my stuff like Steven Bartlett Diary of a CEO where he just takes all the graphic he was not in the United States and and I was like I'm not going to underpay you. Just a great job. You're going to get what I would be paying you if not even more as well cuz you're my best editor and so I want you to do everything you do for me full-time from where you're at and I'll just pay you. So, like he's 100% fulltime for me.

Epic. But that's messed up my sleeping schedule cuz I'm like, "Oh, I got this one thing. How about we add that thing at like 3:00 in the morning, but I got Jamie Brindle at like 10 as well. So, I got to get my sleep." So,

you look very rested today. Yeah. No, I love this freelancing thing. So, when what's the what would you say is the service right now that is going to be booming in the freelancing industry?

I mean, here's the thing. I I don't think there is any one particular market that's better than the other. Like I don't think there's a such thing as like a crowded market or an ideal market. I think you know really you cut through the noise and you succeed based on the specificity of the problem that you solve.

So it's you know the the market and this and the skill set um are almost inconsequential. like they're they're a means to an end and the business the business lives or dies by the how specific how urgent and how painful the problem you solve is right so I mean you know choose a market that's interesting to you choose a market that maybe you have that's over represented in your niche like maybe you got a lot of family in the restaurant business you know so it's like they'll refer you to other restaurant owners or you got a lot of family in fintech you know or you got a lot of your college roommates went into fint tech like you know it's like choose you know something that's where you've got a leg up or at least have some interest in it and then you know once you pick that market go find the the problem that's urgent and painful and then kind of reverse engineer how you're going to solve that problem with what it

is that you do you know so it's like if if the problem is you know is oh we're not getting you know the conversions we want to be getting on a monthly basis um then you know and you're a graphic designer then it's okay well what can I do with graphic design to help these people solve that, you know. Okay. Or you're a web developer. What can I do with development to help these people solve that problem?

You know, um, so I think that's the play like, you know, obviously AI is changing everything everybody's business. And I'm sure, you know, it's I mean, it's almost a cliche at this point to mention that, but like I think, you know, if if you want to pay attention to one um thing, you know, or or one, you know, kind of trendy item, it would be that I would figure out how to implement AI in in that solution. Uh because then you can come at it and, you know, yield the results of a team of 10 or 20 uh as an individual, you know, and right now that's still a competitive advantage. I think that's going to be par for the course like eight months from now. You know, it's going to be the expectation.

So, um if you want to take advantage of a little bit of a a window of opportunity, it would probably be be that figure out how to how to wield AI, you know, now

I I couldn't agree more. And a matter of fact, I think I even asked somebody similar question and they often said AI number one as priority, but he also stressed on the fact that even if you learn something like Python and like solving people's problems is going to be such a big thing because everything right now has become in in in the remote space where it's become a bit more convenient for most people.

My question now to you um what was the biggest mental shift going from surviving freelancer

Mhm. to a business owner that's thriving, what is that big mental shift that occurs? I would say um one of the biggest ones was realizing that business is the exchange of money for solutions, not the exchange of money for the thing I do.

Um so for years I thought, okay, people are paying me because I make good videos, you know, like and it's that's That's dangerous because, you know, you get lucky enough times and you think that that's the that's the reason they're paying you. And really the reason that people are paying you is because you're solving a problem that's worth more than the money they're giving you, you know, and so, you know, I I got lucky enough times to kind of skirt by um you know, where the clients sus that out for themselves, like, okay, Jamie can solve my problem. I'm going to hire him. But when I realized that that's what was going on, I started being able to position myself in that context, you know, and started talking about my service, the the business results of my service as opposed to the creative inputs, you know. So, it's like I'm I'm no longer talking about shot choice and pacing and color and,

you know, with clients because they don't give a And then I start talking about conversion rate. Hey, how are we deploying this? Is this going to be a captive audience? Like, are you showing this in a meeting room or am I hijacking attention here? Is this going to be a pre-roll ad that I have to like how do you know all these things? it's okay here's the business result that I'm yielding you with my creativity as opposed to you're purchasing my creativity you know and I think that that that shift in the way I positioned my offer uh made a significant difference in our business primar like like a because you know it's easier to market that way because a business owner you know maybe is is going to skip past somebody talking about their craft and but but will lock in on somebody talking about how they're going to improve their conversion rate, you know. Um, but but also B because in in a sales in the sales context, like

if I'm in a lineup with four or five other videographers or or editors, I I almost guarantee you I'm the only person asking them about success metrics and conversion rates and, you know, the context of the audience and, you know, how, you know, where the goalposts are. I'm, you know, I'm establishing myself as a strategic partner in that opening conversation in a way that I guarantee you none of the other, you know, creatives they're talking to are. So, it's it sets me apart. It sets me into this kind of new category of

strategic partner um that people maybe aren't used to when when vetting freelancers. So I would say that was a that was a big one for me is a business is the exchange of money for solutions um not not money for you know my my creativity or or whatever my my services. Oh absolutely I love that. How have you struggled? I know many people usually when they start in in a certain field they seem to struggle a bit with like the imposttor syndrome where they end up just charging way lower than their value as well. and you see it a lot, but at the same time, how do you balance that with low ballers, you know, cuz some people just lowball regardless, but how can you just how can people not like get over and overcome that imposter syndrome?

Yeah, I mean, I have been blessed that I have been able to talk to thousands of freelancers at this point, like one-on-one in the DMs, on Zoom calls, in our community. Uh, and I can say with 99.9% certainty, if you are a freelancer watching this, where's my camera? If you are a freelancer watching this, uh, you're undercharging. Like so many like it's just it's just a thing. Like freelancers just undervalue um, you know, their their solution, their service. So, uh, you know, step one is to recognize that like no matter what you're charging right now, like you're undercharging. So, start experimenting with your rate. I it's just I ask the question to to so many you know you know how how much are you charging and and very few of them will will you know sometimes I'll say you know you should probably just on the next five that come through double the rate and see what happens and and a few

of them will take me up on that and then hit me up and say I got two people to pay me twice as much as I normally get funny funny how that happens you know it's it's just I don't know what it is I think you know it's a it's maybe it's a confidence issue I'm sure there's a little fear involved you scarcity mindset, not wanting to lose the gig. Um, but yeah, I for the most part freelancers undervalue themselves. Um, so I would say just start there with like that base fact that like you're probably undercharging. Um, but then in terms of, you know, once you get past that, like what the next the next step of this process is is realizing back to what we're talking about, right? Is is that your clients are spending against the problem. So it's it has very little to do with how much you cost and more to do with the certainty that you're going to solve the problem for them. Does that make sense? So so like you know

anecdotally when Courtney and I are hiring somebody to to come into our business and and solve a problem for us, it's very rare that we don't choose the most expensive option. we almost always go for the priciest freelancer in the lineup because, you know, that's the that's the person that's going to get it done for us, you know, uh and and it's, you know, obviously we we vet and make sure, you know, our assumption is correct, but uh you know, pricing is a form of communication in and of itself where it's like if you know, if you have a very like do or die um uh problem in your business, like you know, don't solve this and your business is dead in six months.

Do you go to the cheapest option first or you go seek out the most expensive option and work your way back from there? Right? And that's so you want to be that that's and it's I mean it all ties into everything we've talked about so far today. It's like you you want to be solving that expensive urgent problem where people are in the mood to just throw money at you to fix it for them, you know. Um, so, so you know, part of that is done ahead of time with the work that you do on on developing your offer, that specificity and figuring out, you know, what problem you solve. Um, but then, you know, another part of that is done at the marketing stage where it's like, okay, you're targeting people that are in that moment in their business now, right? Because it's like if you if you catch somebody who's a year away from that moment or who's a year past that moment, they're not going to be customers for you. and you're gonna

you're gonna think it's not working, but really it's just you've got you're you've mistimed your marketing, you know, um or you're not speaking to the right person. And then, you know, and then in the the the sales conversation, it's just it's just, you know, pointing to all those all those pressure points and uh you know, and and identifying what the solve is.

I mean, I couldn't concur. When you were just talking about that, it reminded me obviously I I drive um a Tesla, but I I look back at [snorts] um the time where I could have bought a better model.

Yeah. With better range for just an extra 25,000. And I'm like, h no, no. And it was also newer, like a year like newer as well. And then looking back, I'm like, you know, let's just get this thing. And then um you look back in time with the amount of travel I do because I still like traveling with comfortability that I can do a few stuff.

It's such it's costing me way more than 25,000 in terms of time, in terms of value because now it's an extra two charges. It's just multiple different stuff. It's it just you know looking back it's like those four years I'm like so when you say the cheaper option I I've come to the conclusion the cheaper option is not always the best. As a matter of fact, sometimes it's always the worst option.

It's usually the more expensive option. More expensive. That's so cuz those charges have accumulated over time which I'm telling you with how much look I'd already told you I'm going to like three different states, four different cities in the space of like of this week as well and just because I'm charging all these different you know stations that's just one week. What I'm trying to say is the fact that the cheapest option always becomes the most expensive because at the same time if you pay what you value it's convenience. It's it's more experienced, it's knowledgeable, it knows what it's doing, and it takes a headache away. Yeah. And so I I couldn't agree more. And I've seen that as well with and I was telling them the other time that Ora House Studio um out of all the studios I've done, I've done also 10 different states. It's slightly the the more pricier one, but then it's the one

where when people come in there, they have that experience like what a view. Oh my gosh, that's so amazing. They're the first ones to go leave a review and like my Apple podcast. What I'm trying to say is the fact that I don't even like whenever the the the quote comes, I pay it as quickly as possible that I get the thing booked because the experience that the guests gain, I want people to have it. Oh my gosh, I enjoyed the conversation. I enjoyed the atmosphere. I enjoyed the scenery. I enjoyed and if they enjoy, I enjoy the viewers enjoy.

And it's a win-winwin. So that's I I could not agree when you said that. just it rang so many bells and made me want to throw up and the awful decisions when I try to low ball and go cheap because it just was such a disaster. So

sometimes you got to learn a lesson the hard way. You know that's No, I think the you know it is it is important for anybody in business to realize what product they're actually selling because it's like we're all we're all selling one of one or more of three things. more money, more time, mitigated risk, right? And so it's like [snorts] literally like and what you just talked about was more time. You know, they were selling more time with that $25,000 up upgrade, right? And and maybe the gentleman who or or lady who sold that car to you didn't do a good job of explaining that that's what the, you know, what what they were selling with that upgrade. Um, so it's, you know, but that's I think an important part to how you communicate your offer, right? is it's like you don't have to like come right out and say this, hey, I'm selling you more money with this, you know, but like it is, you know, one of my favorite

questions to ask at the beginning of a of a a sales call is, you know, hey, what's what's our report card look like for this? Like what are what are the success metrics that we're tracking? Um, and you know, it's it's funny how often they don't have an answer for that question. And then you get to as a strategic partner kind of help them come up with

what metrics they need to be tracking for this. Um, but you know, usually in that answer you identify pretty quickly, okay, they're interested in making more money or they're interested in saving time or they're interested in lowering risk, you know, and then the rest of that conversation is just it's just pointing at that one thing, right? It's like this, you know, and then we're going to do this, this, this, and that's going to save you more time, and then we're going to do this, this, this, and that's going to save you more time, you know? So, it's identifying which of those products your customer is actually buying. um you know tends tends to do gang busters in a in a sales setting.

Love that. Um so now with those there's a there's somebody out there is freelancing who's got a few customers lined up very a bit more plateauing. It's just very relaxed. It's convenient.

What are those steps they should take right now in order to try and upscale to become a six, seven or eight figure business?

Yeah. Yeah. I've this it's funny this this year I've had this conversation so many times with freelancers in the DMs um that I've I've I've declared this plateau uh for freelancers I call it the referral plateau right and it's I think so many freelancers um when they hit that moment where it's like okay I'm financially secure happy with the work I'm doing but I have no idea how to grow beyond this right my it's it's This is why we we laugh. It's like my next question I almost never have to ask, but I do for the hell of it. I say, "Well, how are you generating leads right now?"

And 100% of the not even 99.9, 100% of the time, the answer is, "Oh, I only get leads through referrals. I'm 100% referral." Right? And and that's that's why I've called it the referral plateau because it's what's happening is is the the freelancers business has outgrown their network. So they've hit the point where they you know it's we are in what got you here won't get you there territory, right? So it's like you your your network has done all it can do or ever will do for you. Um so if you're happy with um you know the the income that you're making now, if you're happy with the shape of your business right now, cool, keep at it. I there's no notes, nothing new to do. Uh you're just going to work off referrals for the rest of your career. But if you want to grow past that um plateau, it's time to start doing some different things, right? It's time to to activate social media. It's time to uh start start doing some paid

media campaigns, you know, it's time to uh to maybe network with some hub and spoke clients, you know, forge some uh strategic partnerships with um complimentary freelancers or with, you know, clients that have clients. Um you know, look at some productized services, look at some digital products. is it's what we talked about earlier. You're diversifying your revenue pie. Um you know that's that's you you you're basically you're looking for higher leverage opportunities where you know it's a referral is very one for one uh you know and and you you can play that game and comfortably kind of get to a 10 to $15,000 a month um business but then you need to start looking at one for two opportunities or one for five opportunities you know bundles.

Exactly. higher higher leverage opportunities and you know you go you go to social media for that you go to paid media for that um and you go to hub and spoke clients with clients for that um you know and and you maybe maybe take a look at digital products or or productized services but do you also think the mentality behind the fact that I'm not a big corporation I'm just a freelancer do you think that has a big impact where they're like you know what I'm okay with about 20,000 a month I'm okay with you know do you think that affects that

for sure I mean the beauty of freelancing thing is it's choose your own adventure. Like no, like you most of us are doing this because we we love agency. Like we love that nobody tells us what to do and we get to we get to build the business that looks like what we want it to look like. So like if you're, you know, happy at 20,000, cool. Like you did it. Like just enjoy it. You know, you're you're where you want to be and maybe two years from now you're going to want to, you know, poke around and figure out how to get to 50 and, you know, and then you'll have a couple levers to pull, you know. Um, but yeah, I I I think that a lot of people, uh, although I, you know, a lot of people, so, so that's the good side of that. But I think the bad side of that would be people that use this I'm just one person thing as a limiting factor, right? Where it's like,

I want to be making 50 grand a month, but I'm just one person, you know, I can't do that. And that I think, you know, a decent portion of uh of my content exists to call on, right? because it is I mean it's not my original thought but somebody mentioned it and I agree wholeheartedly the first solarpreneur billionaire has been born right with all the tools that are available to us now um you know with with what you can do with AI today um you know it's there is there is no excuse there is so if you're finding yourself you know in in that mindset uh you know you got to you got to get real honest with yourself and call on it um because you know it's it has never you the opportunity has never been more abundant than it is today and it will be even more abundant tomorrow. Uh so it's just a matter of you know assessing what it is that you want to accomplish and then backing into that goal is okay so what does my

behavior need to look like for the next six months for this to be my reality. And to follow up on that, you've often emphasized on the important of three pillars in terms of marketing, sales, and fulfillment.

Um, out of those three very crucial and important pillars, what do you think is the most misunderstood by freelancers? And then why?

Interesting. Um, most misunderstood by freelancers, [sighs] I would say fulfillment.

Okay. um because they think that fulfillment is doing the thing, which I I'll give them a pass for that. Like that makes a lot of sense, you know? Uh but [snorts] but really um fulfillment is marketing and sales, right? So if you do all three, you know, it's an A+. But if you just get fulfillment right, it's still probably an A. you know, it's it because if you do fulfillment right, your marketing and sales will take care of themselves. Um, you know, you at least, you know, 80% of themselves. So, fulfillment, I think, you know, when you really when you when you dissect kind of a real pros freelance business, um, I think a key differentiator is that they don't just do the thing. uh they take their clients on an emotional journey like that they've orchestrated, right? Um for instance, we know people remember the beginnings and the ends of things. It's just the way people are, right? If we're

in Hollywood, it a good rule of thumb for a movie is if you nail the opening and you nail the ending and you have a shitty middle of the movie, people are going to still think it was a great movie because they'll remember how it started, they'll remember how it ended, right? Um, it's the same with fulfillment where if in the first 24 hours you overd deliver somehow, right? You really you really uh, you know, elate them, you knock something out of the park for them, something that they didn't think they were going to get for another two weeks. You deliver it in 12 hours, they're like, "Holy we made a great decision, right?" And then you do the same at the end where it's like, "Okay, here's this thing that,

you know, you paid for, but also I made this other thing that's the exact that's just as much work. So I've you've you're you're getting twice as much as what you paid for it. You know, now you know from the beginning that you were going to do those two things, right? But you didn't mention it because you're designing an emotional journey where you're delighting them at the beginning and delighting them at the end, right? And so what you're trying to do with this fulfillment um is effectively turn that person into a traveling salesman for your business, right? Um in addition to a repeat customer. So, you know, at the end you want to take them by the hand and walk them to the next offer. Or it's like, okay, we just finished this, but if you don't do this, this is only going to do 80% of what you hope it will. So, let's come on over here and do this next, right? So, it's like it's like mapping out that customer journey. Um,

so if you do fulfillment, right, you've got repeat business. So, it's, you know, it's compounding interest essentially. It's, you know, all the work of acquiring one client, but you're going to get, you know, six or seven projects out of them. Um, and you get, you know, a a sales a sales team effectively, somebody who's happy to refer you to other people, somebody who's happy to, you know, broadcast to their network. Um, you know, what what an amazing collaborator you are. So, you know, f you you you knock fulfillment out of the park. Your sales and marketing are pretty much handled. And then, you know, from there, if you want to scale, you know, you don't have to worry about the the the normal sales and marketing efforts that most freelancers do. You can just go all in on the more advanced stuff.

That's that's money. I I love that. I love that a lot. Our business does not come without shortcomings, um lessons, painful um you know, occurrences that happened to us. What would you say personally for you? Um what's a painful uh failure or rather a lesson that has occurred while you were a freelancer that ended up shaping how you run your business today? Um, I would say probably I had one I this is probably year four or five uh into my career where I got a a really big agency customer um you know, a client with a bunch of clients and they became the entirety of my work. It was like literally I had no time to do anything else. I was only working for I was I was a de facto employee for this agency. Um because I didn't have any time to develop my own business.

And uh it took me like two years to realize the risky position I I had put my business in, right? Where it's like, okay, I'm not growing. I can't I can't grow right now. And if if this business fails, my business fails. Um, going back to this whole agency thing that we're talking about, it's I was I it took me too long to realize, oh, I am I am dedicating I'm I'm gifting them a lot of my agency, right? So, it's like I have to I'm at their beck and call because if they um you know, if if they fire me, if they're not happy with me, then I don't have income. I got to go figure this out. Um, and so that I think was, you know, when I realized the spot I was in, um, that was a harrowing experience for me because I realiz what needed to be done was I needed to substantially charge them. I needed to charge them substantially more um, so that I could hire help so that I could go run my business instead of be in their

business. Um and and of course and I many freelancers I've talked to found themselves in a similar position. So they all kind of I think understand uh you know what that means is like okay I have to raise my rates in a way that could possibly get them to part ways with me in which case I'm out. I don't have any income. I can't pay rent. You know uh and it's it's a rock and a hard place because you want to do what's right for your business but like you also want to do what's right for paying rent and you know eating food.

So, uh, you know, it's it it took me a long time, uh, to to work up the courage to go for it. Um, and, uh, you know, or or or to to, you know, hit send on the email. And I had this call scheduled with the CEO of this agency. The day came and I remember I I was standing for the call. I couldn't even sit down for the call. I'm standing in the room on the call sweating. And uh I kind of pled my case to her. Um you know, and there was kind of some initial push back. She's like, "Well, we're bringing you a lot of work and I don't understand why the price is going up instead of down." And and I said, "Well, that's the thing is, you know," and I I appealed to her as a fellow business owner. I just said, "I can't I can't grow my business right now." And like I really don't want this to be a dealbreaker because I'm really enjoying working with you all, but um but you know, with the current rates, you know,

my business dies. So, I I told I gave the same spill I just gave you. I was like, I'm in a rock in a hard place kind of moment here. And uh and I have to literally double my double the rate, right? And and maybe we can work something out to where, you know, or you know, it's less money, but I do less to free me up more time, you know, I just laid it all out. Um and you know, there was a brief pause and she goes, "All right, yeah, it works. So, just let me know if we need to send anything, you know, sign anything new." Um, and I was thinking I I hung up the phone and after about a 30 second period of elation and a long exhale, I thought, "How the much more money could I have if that if after all of that," she just said, "Yeah, sure." I thought, "How much money are they making off of what I do for them?" Um, so it was a it was a revoly moment in more ways than one. Um, but I would say that was it.

Yeah. Now, I'm glad you because the next question I was going to ask you which was how do you like deal with those that essentially want to low ball you know your value you don't want to lose customers by sticking to it so how do you balance the fact that where you have to stand for the value that you offer but with those that keep coming with low offers

yeah I mean I whether it's new or whether it's a existing client Yeah. Yeah. I would say, you know, let's take it like two different scenarios. Like a new client coming through the door, lowballing you. Um, you know, approach that with an abundance mindset. There are like millions of new businesses formed every day, every a year. A freelancer needs like nine of them to have a great career, you know, nine a year. So, it's like I'd say the odds are in your favor. Um, so, you know, maybe you So, I' I' I would pass on those opportunities. uh you know you know it's it's just life's short and and it's going to it's going to take a lot out of your out of your business, right?

It's the the reverse of the the cheapest is often the most expensive. Same with it's like the low ball clients are often the ones that you lose the most on. Um but you know I I would say uh but then postgame and see, okay, do I need to do something different with my marketing to get less of those people and more of these people that can actually afford me? Um, but yeah, I never I would never uh you know, if if you do if you do need to make something work with that that customer, uh trying to keep it practical because I know some people it's just like, hey, I got to pay rent and this is what's coming through the door this month. Um in that situation, try to find um a way to negotiate the scope, not your rate. So, you know, if what you do, ideally, you're charging $5,000 for this client comes through and says, "We only set aside 1,500 for this." M

um you go okay get them on the same page about how what that budget means to their success metrics and say you know this is you're not going to find anybody who can get you this for 1500. So it's like just want to make sure we're on the same page. Um but there is a $1,500 version of this idea. Let's let's find it together right and so again strategic partner you know and you're negotiating the scope not your fees. So you're not saying okay yeah I'll make it work for 1500. you're saying, "Okay, here's this big thing that we're going to shrink to this and do this for 1,500, you know, and then when we're ready for the $5,000 version, you come to me and we'll we'll figure it out." Um, but then the second scenario is a customer you've worked with uh in the past who comes at you and and lowballs you on something. Uh, and that's that's a little more uh con a little more textured, but the same basic premise, right? Where it's

negotiate the scope with them. Um, and and try to find a way uh to set them up for the next project where it's like okay

this budget that you have isn't right for your goals. Um, you know, and by all means, if you can find someone who who can knock it out of the park for this budget, send them my way because I'm going to subcontract them. you know, I'm going to add him to my team. Um, but you know, as a strategic partner, like as somebody who wants to see you succeed, uh, this ain't it. You know, here's something we can do with this money, though, right? So, it's like once a once a client is a client, think of them, you're almost like their co-CEO.

So, it's like, you know, your job is to advise and to improve their business. And so if you're not, you know, if they're not making the right decision from a budgetary standpoint, you've got that trust with them, you know, because they already know that you can do that you're interested in helping their business. So it's like take that opportunity to

to make a deposit on that trust bank and say "Look you're not going to get what you want for this money. Um, let's talk about some other things you can get for this money, right?" And try to try to help them out that way.

Now, we mentioned 2027, majority of Americans are going to be freelancers. Where do you see the future of freelancing?

That's such an exciting question. I mean, it's it's I I think and you know, this this is big. Uh but I I think that we are very close to a reality where everybody has an LLC. Everybody is in business for themselves. and a couple of those LLC's will get together and activate towards a common goal and we'll call that a company. We'll call that a corporation. I think we're already seeing it happen. Most agencies that I know, most agency owners that I know are going to this model

where it's all it's entirely freelance, right? So that was I think that was kind of first blood drawn on on this this prediction of mine. This was years ago. A lot of agencies started going to an entirely freelance model where you know previously they had three floors of a building. Now they have one and a bunch of freelancers all over the world, right? Um and that allows them to scale or to to flex their team based on the size of an individual client's needs.

Um now here we are in 2025, a lot of companies are hiring fractional execs, right? So suddenly now the the freaking CFO of a company is a freelancer, right? It's a fractional CFO, a fractional CMO. Um, so now we're seeing this happen kind of metriculate in the corporate world. Uh, I think I I you know, in in the very near future, it's going to make its way into the restaurant industry, into retail, into like there's going to be a freelancer, you know, a freelance uh show floor uh specialist whose entire job is to work at a a retail store and get somebody from the front door to the cash register in the most profitable manner possible, you know, and that and that person's going to be courted by Gap and, you know, and and uh and Gucci and like I just think that there's this everybody's kind of cluing into the fact that um you know they don't they they don't have to hand their agency over to

somebody to make money doing the thing that they're interested in doing like it's the the the promise is no longer there because it used to be you were trading you were trading that agency for loyalty and security and I don't think that that's the case anymore and you know we're seeing and people are getting really frustrated with that where they're going well why the hell am I

interviewing through 12 rounds to get this job, you know, for them to then fire me, you know, a year and a half in because they didn't hit their quarterly goal. It's just like it's not what it used to be. Um, so why don't I just put that effort into building something for myself, you know, in the time it takes somebody, you know, to interview nine times for a job, they could have built a freelance business, uh, that made more income than the job. Uh, so I, you know, and it's and it's not even like a hustle culture thing anymore.

It's it's it's fascinating. Um, I I do think that, you know, there's a comfort level maybe that that some people have with being told what they're responsible for each week. So, that's something that

um, you know, that's probably a a hump we need to get over. Um, you know, a lot of people trade uh, you know, trade their agency and their freedom or a little chunk of their agency, a little chunk of their freedom for that luxury of of, you know, showing up to work and being told what to do rather than being on the hook for what you need to do that week to improve yourself, to improve your business. Um, but you know, like I said, like it's getting easier and easier. I mean, it's knowledge is a commodity at this point.

Like if you if you want to know the most valuable, you know, business advice, you like look, they're all online. Like it's like all all of, you know, all of our like wildly successful businessmen are all online talking about it. You know, you ask Chat GPT, it'll read every book on the on the subject and tell you what you need to be doing. Um so it's just yeah, it goes back to what we're saying. There's no there's never been a simpler time to do it. And I think that's what the future's going to look like is um you know maybe our maybe our grandkids or our great grandkids are going to say wow there was a time when people people didn't work for themselves.

You know that's episode of Black Mirror. Yeah. We're going to say yeah. Yeah. They used to they used to go in and do whatever somebody told them to do. Wow. That's wild.

Wow. No. I love that. I love that. As we conclude, we always ask our guests um what the definition is for winning for them as well because code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow. For you Jamie, what does the term winning mean for you?

Oh gosh. I mean, I think it means uh I would say being able to wake up in the morning and do whatever the hell it is you want to do. Agency, right? It's it's being able to um you know it's it's it's earning yourself the ability uh to move through this world how you deem you want to move through this world. So whatever whatever you know whatever it takes to get to that stage of a career um I think is is is what I would define as winning. Um, but that's that's a personal definition and I think that's the beauty of this is that everybody gets to define it for themselves, you know. So, it's that's a it's fun to see and that, you know, when when you get a bunch of freelancers together in a room or just have a one-on-one like this, it's, you know, what it's fun to see what everybody what everybody has to say about it. But, I would say that's it. It's it's having the agency to do, you know, to to to

live the way you you want to live. Jamie, if you could look at at the camera, let the viewers know if they want to get a hold of you, if they want to get your course, how to get in contact with you, your Instagram handle and so forth as well.

Uh yeah. Hi guys. Uh follow me on uh Instagram or LinkedIn and and shoot me a DM there. That's probably the quickest the quickest uh way to get to me. And then uh uh yeah, let's just if you can't tell, I I enjoy chatting about this stuff. So, so shoot me a DM and uh let me know what you're up against in maybe these next 12 weeks and I'd love to chat with you and strategize a little bit. So, I'll see you on on social media. The code towinning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow. If you want to learn about the business of freelancing, you want to learn about freelancing, this is the episode for you. Jamie's information will be in the description section. So, without further ado, the man, the myth, the legend, Jamie Brindle. Thank you very much, sir.

Thanks, man.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "WHY MORE PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING FREELANCING: HOW TO START TODAY || JAMIE BRINDLE || EPISODE 072"?

Jamie Brindle (Guest), Unknown (Host of Code To Winning) (Host), Courtney (last name unknown) (Guest), Christo (last name unknown) (Guest), James Barnard (Guest), Adrien Purr (Guest), Steven Bartlett (Host).

What is "WHY MORE PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING FREELANCING: HOW TO START TODAY || JAMIE BRINDLE || EPISODE 072" about?

The conversation explores the rising trend of freelancing, particularly accelerated by the events of 2020, projecting that a significant portion of the workforce will choose this path by 2027. Jamie Brindle shares his journey from a young freelancer to a thriving business owner, emphasizing the importance of diversifying revenue streams and leveraging personal expertise to support others in…

What is mentioned in this Code To Winning episode?

25 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Freelancing, Artificial Intelligence, Digital Product, Jamie Brindle, Instagram, Referral plateau. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "WHY MORE PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING FREELANCING: HOW TO START TODAY || JAMIE BRINDLE || EPISODE 072"?

The episode runs 51 min; the transcript is about 10,215 words in 101 timestamped sections.

More from Code To Winning

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.