The Mysterious Death of Phoebe Handsjuk + the Sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald | MFM 509

What this episode is about

The content discusses the challenges of returning from a Thanksgiving break, drawing an analogy to soldiers in Vietnam and highlighting the contrast between the excitement of a touring experience and the mundane reality of everyday life. Additionally, it touches on personal experiences of travel during the holiday season, reflecting on the frustrations of traffic and longing for appreciation.

Key takeaways

• Touring: A soldier's R&R with applause, only to face Thanksgiving's Cold War reset back home.
• The nicotine patch: once a rebellious indulgence, now a bizarre gateway to 'cowboy' reminiscence.
• Therapeutic oblivion: Regardless if nicotine or alcohol, it’s a cowboy’s trail to sanity.
• Board games: Jenga bridges the holiday divide, proving fun conquers all strategic odds.
• Trapped in traffic, travelers wage war with patience, while the 99 becomes a battlefield maze.

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Thanksgiving, MFM, Nicotine pouches, nicotine pouches
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Phoebe, Melbourne, Homeboy Industries, Homeboy Industries
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Phoebe, Phyllis, Melbourne, Nicole Kidman
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Phoebe, Ambien, Ambien, Thai food
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Phoebe, coroner, Edmund Fitzgerald, Edmund Fitzgerald
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Great Lakes, Edmund Fitzgerald, Edmund Fitzgerald, Edmond Fitzgerald
7. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Edmund Fitzgerald, Edmund Fitzgerald, Lake Superior, Edmond Fitzgerald
8. 1:10:00 – 1:19:39: Edmund Fitzgerald, Edmund Fitzgerald, Edmond Fitzgerald, Great Lakes

Notable quotes from "The Mysterious Death of Phoebe Handsjuk + the Sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald | MFM 509"

• To my favorite murder. That’s Georgia Hardstark.

  about Georgia Hardstark · at 0:10

• This is the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe handshake.

  about Phoebe Hanschke · at 15:10

• This is the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.

  about Edmund Fitzgerald · at 49:08

• The captain of the Edmund Fitzgerald is 63 year old Ernest McSorley, who over his 44 year career has climbed the ranks.

  about Captain Ernest McSorley · at 53:10

• Collectively, they spend 95,000mi² and they hold about 20% of the entire planet's freshwater.

  about Great Lakes · at 55:25

• It's roughly the size of Maine Lake Superior is, and at its deepest point, you could submerge the Empire State Building, and only its antenna would be sticking out of the lake.

  about Lake Superior · at 56:15

• And that ship is helmed by Captain Bernie Cooper, a 30 year veteran of the field.

  about Captain Bernie Cooper · at 59:13

• The next morning, on November 10th, the situation becomes more volatile.

  about November 10th · at 1:01:12

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Phoebe Hanschke — Person · Case subject (victim) in main story · 2 mentions · first at 17:11
  Central figure of Georgia’s featured case: the disputed circumstances around Phoebe Hanschke’s 2010 death in Melbourne and the allegedly mishandled investigation.
• Phoebe Handsjuk — Person · Primary case subject (referenced victim) · 1 mention · first at 17:11
  Central figure in Georgia’s main story: the mysterious 2010 death in Melbourne involving a garbage chute and a widely criticized investigation.
  This is the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe handshake.
• Captain Ernest McSorley — Person · Referenced historical figure (ship captain) · 3 mentions · first at 53:10
  Captain of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald; his decisions, radio communications, and final moments are central to the disaster narrative.
• Captain Bernie Cooper — Person · Referenced historical figure (ship captain) · 3 mentions · first at 59:13
  Captain of the SS Arthur M. Anderson; communicates with Captain McSorley during the storm and leads search efforts after the Fitzgerald disappears.
• Georgia Hardstark — Person · 1 mention · first at 0:10
• Karen Kilgariff — Person · 1 mention · first at 0:13
• Gordon Lightfoot — Person · Referenced artist (songwriter) · 5 mentions · first at 49:05
  Discussed as the musician who wrote and popularized 'The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald,' helping preserve public memory of the disaster.
  And since 2023, there's an additional ring commemorating Gordon Lightfoot himself, who passed away that year.
• Snooki — Person · 2 mentions · first at 10:24
  I also think that Snooki's personality, I think she was wronged in the time where they got popular. Yes.
• Morgan Clarke — Person · 2 mentions · first at 1:05:42
  And at the same time, the Anderson's first mate, Morgan Clarke, is trying to reach captain McSorley again by radio, but there's no answer.
• Michael Bachelard — Person · Referenced expert (investigative reporter) · 1 mention · first at 15:19
  Cited as a reporter who investigated the Handsjuk case in the podcast series 'Phoebe’s Fall' (The Age).
  And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall, and it was an investigation by Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper The Age.
• Richard Baker — Person · 1 mention · first at 15:23
  And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall, and it was an investigation by Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper The Age.
• Vinnie Thomas — Person · 1 mention · first at 10:05
  Then on ghosted, Rose reunites with comedian oh, which is truly one of my very favorites these days.
• Congressman Robert Garcia — Person · 1 mention · first at 11:08
  This episode features Congressman Robert Garcia, the ranking member and top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee.
• Nicole Kidman — Person · 1 mention · first at 24:07
  But this crowd that he ran in, they threw parties for Nicole Kidman and like famous people.
• Christopher Rowley — Person · 1 mention · first at 49:48
  Okay, so the main source used in the story today is Christopher Rowley's excellent 1996 Discovery Channel documentary called shipwreck.
• Dan Erickson — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:07:47
  One is captain Don Erickson of the William Clay Ford, which is another big or freighter, and the other is none other than Captain Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Andersen.
• James Harbor — Person · Referenced witness/participant (Coast Guard) · 1 mention · first at 1:08:40
  Quoted as a Coast Guardsman describing the severity of the search conditions after the Fitzgerald’s disappearance.
  A Coast Guardsman named James Harbor will say, quote, we searched for three days in probably the roughest seas I've been in my life, including the North Atlantic and hurricanes in the Gulf.
• Don Dinar — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:15:55
  Don Dinar, Ski Junior of the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society, is among the speakers at this event.
• Nellie McSorley — Person · Referenced family member · 1 mention · first at 53:45
  Mentioned as Captain McSorley’s wife, recovering from a stroke; contextualizes his planned retirement and raises the tragedy’s stakes.
  His wife, Nellie is recovering from a stroke, and so he has promised her that after this shipping season is over, he will finally come home for good.
• Phoebe — Person · 38 mentions · first at 15:10
  This is the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe handshake.
• Phoebe Handke — Person · 10 mentions
• Ryan Vince — Person · 3 mentions
• Phyllis — Person · 2 mentions · first at 21:30
  But they ultimately repair their relationship, and she's really close with her grandmother, a woman named Phyllis, and Phoebe trusts her completely.
• Morgan Clarke — Person · 2 mentions · first at 1:05:42
  At 7:10 p.m., captain McSorley radios over to the Anderson again, and this time he talks to first mate Morgan Clarke, who can see the Fitzgerald on the radar.
• Brian Len — Person · 2 mentions
• Princess Jenny — Person · 2 mentions
• Sophie — Person · 1 mention · first at 6:20
  Sophie did it to Anna, and it was this big, huge thing.
• Ashley Parker Angel — Person · 1 mention · first at 7:54
• Dr. Mo Hannah — Person · 1 mention · first at 9:15
  Well, this week over on The Knife, Hannah and Pasha talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters of Donna Nelson, who was arrested in Tokyo in January of 2023 on international drug smuggling charges.
• Laura Anne Nelson — Person · 1 mention · first at 9:19
  Well, this week over on The Knife, Hannah and Pasha talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters of Donna Nelson, who was arrested in Tokyo in January of 2023 on international drug smuggling charges.
• Blake DeLong — Person · 1 mention · first at 9:49
  They had already disappeared with actor Blake DeLong.
• Anatoly Musquin — Person · 1 mention · first at 9:52
  Then they dive into the shocking real life case of Anatoly Musquin and his 29 mummified human dolls.
• Vinnie Thomas — Person · 1 mention · first at 10:05
• Bob Greg — Person · 1 mention · first at 13:16
  I talked about this book. Yeah, Father Greg's book.
• Karen Reed — Person · 1 mention · first at 38:52
  Like that's the. Karen Reed case. Remember the one copy?
• Christopher Rowley — Person · 1 mention · first at 49:48
  Okay, so the main source used in the story today is Christopher Rowley's excellent 1996 Discovery Channel documentary called shipwreck.
• Nellie — Person · 1 mention · first at 53:45
  His wife, Nellie is recovering from a stroke, and so he has promised her that after this shipping season is over, he will finally come home for good.
• Don Dinar Ski Junior — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:15:55
  Don Dinar, Ski Junior of the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society, is among the speakers at this event.
• Aaron Ross — Person · 1 mention
• Bill Rose — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald — Book · Referenced work · 4 mentions · first at 1:12:28
  The song by Gordon Lightfoot that commemorates the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
  So he goes into the studio and he records what would end up being his legendary ballad, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which he will later say is his proudest achievement. Wow.
• Father Greg's book — Book · 1 mention · first at 13:16
  I talked about this book. Yeah, Father Greg's book.
• Phoebe's Fall — Book · 3 mentions · first at 15:19
  And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall, and it was an investigation by Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper The Age.
• Shipwreck: The Mystery of the Edmund Fitzgerald — Book · 1 mention · first at 49:52
  Okay, so the main source used in the story today is Christopher Rowley's excellent 1996 Discovery Channel documentary called shipwreck.

Companies & orgs

• Arthur Andersen — Company · Supporting organization · 1 mention · first at 1:07:52
  Another freighter that was in contact with the SS Edmund Fitzgerald during the storm.
  There's another big iron ore freighter called the SS Arthur.
• Homeboy Industries — Company · Sponsor · 3 mentions · first at 13:23
  Nonprofit organization mentioned in the podcast's donation announcement.
  So we're going to kick off December donation drive with $10,000 being donated to Homeboy Industries.
• U.S. Coast Guard — Company · Supporting organization · 2 mentions · first at 1:06:34
  Conducted the search and rescue operation for the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.
  But his heroism is reflected in the U.S.
• TikTok — Company · 3 mentions · first at 10:06
  They actually have a really great cafe and they are making TikToks where it's like a bunch of guys that look like tough guys that go up and they order black coffee, but it's like the little we talked about that, right?
• MFM — Company · Podcast network · 2 mentions · first at 7:00
  The podcast network mentioned in the episode.
  Dear Karen, Georgia and the MFM team, I wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting me through not only the tough times, but also for teaching me how to embrace the good ones.
• The Age — Company · Media source · 2 mentions · first at 15:23
  Newspaper that investigated the mysterious death of Phoebe Handshake.
  And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall, and it was an investigation by Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper The Age.
• Discovery Channel — Company · 2 mentions · first at 49:52
  Okay, so the main source used in the story today is Christopher Rowley's excellent 1996 Discovery Channel documentary called shipwreck.
• National Weather Service — Company · Supporting organization · 2 mentions · first at 58:28
  Provided weather warnings during the storm that sank the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.
  Around midnight, the National Weather Service upgrades its existing gale warning to a storm warning.
• Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society — Company · Supporting organization · 2 mentions · first at 1:15:55
  Organization that preserves the history of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald and other shipwrecks.
  And today, Big Fitz Bell is on display at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society Museum, which is fittingly located in Whitefish Point in Michigan, which is the entry point for Whitefish Bay.
• Exactly Right Media — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at 9:10
  Podcast network mentioned in the episode.
  It's called Exactly Right Media.
• YouTube — Company · 1 mention · first at 11:25
  Subscribe. Also brief recesses on YouTube.
• William Clay Ford — Company · Supporting organization · 1 mention · first at 1:07:47
  Another freighter that participated in the search for the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.
  One is captain Don Erickson of the William Clay Ford, which is another big or freighter, and the other is none other than Captain Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Andersen.
• iHeart — Company · 1 mention · first at 11:20
  Please, please, please binge the newest podcast on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcast and rate review.
• Victoria Supreme Court — Company · 1 mention · first at 18:25
  His father is a retired Victoria Supreme Court judge and his mother is a district judge.
• US Navy — Company · Mentioned organization · 1 mention · first at 1:08:52
  Mentioned in the context of the search for the Edmund Fitzgerald.
  On November 14th, four days after the Edmund Fitzgerald disappears, a U.S.
• Newsweek — Company · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 1:12:58
  Magazine where Gordon Lightfoot read about the SS Edmund Fitzgerald's sinking.
  So he reads about the admits it's Gerald sinking in Newsweek.
• Billboard — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:17:58
  And the week of November 13th, 2025, when it was the anniversary the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald topped the U.S Billboard's Rock Digital Song sales for the very first time because 4 million Americans streamed it that week.
• SiriusXM — Company · Incidental · 4 mentions
  Mentioned in passing during the podcast.
• My Favorite Murder — Company · 3 mentions · first at 0:10
  To my favorite murder. That’s Georgia Hardstark.
• Phoebe's Fall — Company · 3 mentions · first at 15:19
  And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall, and it was an investigation by Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper The Age.
• Brief Recess — Company · 2 mentions · first at 11:01
  And then tomorrow we'll be featuring episode one of Brief Recess, our newest podcast here on the mSME channel.
• Exactly Right store — Company · 2 mentions · first at 11:35
  Also, attention holiday shoppers, the Exactly right store has been fully stocked with gorgeous trinkets and treasures for you and your loved ones.
• Fleetwood Mac — Company · 1 mention · first at 2:33
  See, it worked for Fleetwood Mac and I, we think it's going to work for us.
• The Knife — Company · 1 mention · first at 9:15
  Well, this week over on The Knife, Hannah and Pasha talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters of Donna Nelson, who was arrested in Tokyo in January of 2023 on international drug smuggling charges.
• That's Messed Up — Company · 1 mention · first at 9:45
  And then over on that's messed up.
• Ghosted — Company · 1 mention · first at 9:59
  Then on ghosted, Rose reunites with comedian oh, which is truly one of my very favorites these days.
• iHeart app — Company · 1 mention · first at 11:20
  Please, please, please binge the newest podcast on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcast and rate review.
• U.S. Billboard — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:17:58
  And the week of November 13th, 2025, when it was the anniversary the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald topped the U.S Billboard's Rock Digital Song sales for the very first time because 4 million Americans streamed it that week.
• SVU — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• Edmund Fitzgerald — Product · Case study · 22 mentions · first at 49:08
  The main subject of the maritime disaster story discussed in the podcast.
  This is the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.
• SS Edmund Fitzgerald — Product · Case study · 1 mention · first at 49:08
  Central subject of the maritime disaster story discussed in the podcast.
  It's about a massive ship that gets caught in a horrible storm and then vanishes into thin air. Oh.
• Gordon Lightfoot's Bell — Product · Memorial · 1 mention · first at 1:15:15
  The bell from the Edmund Fitzgerald, used as a monument to honor the lost crew.
  And today, Big Fitz Bell is on display at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society Museum, which is fittingly located in Whitefish Point in Michigan, which is the entry point for Whitefish Bay.
• SS Arthur Anderson — Product · 2 mentions · first at 58:57
  One is captain Don Erickson of the William Clay Ford, which is another big or freighter, and the other is none other than Captain Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Andersen.
• SS Arthur Andersen — Product · Case study · 1 mention · first at 1:07:52
  Another freighter that was in close proximity to the Edmund Fitzgerald during the storm.
  There's another big iron ore freighter called the SS Arthur.
• Ambien — Product · 4 mentions · first at 33:34
  The coroner writes in his report that he believes Phoebe climbed into the chute in a sleepwalking state induced by the alcohol and sleeping pills.
• Nicotine pouches — Product · 3 mentions · first at 2:37
  I discovered it that Georgia was doing nicotine pouches, not patches, while we were on tour.
• Exactly Right Store — Product · 2 mentions · first at 11:35
  Also, attention holiday shoppers, the Exactly right store has been fully stocked with gorgeous trinkets and treasures for you and your loved ones.
• Thai food — Product · 2 mentions · first at 31:01
  They have plans for dinner, right?
• Charades — Product · 1 mention · first at 4:51
  It's basically three rounds of charades where you get to say full sentences.
• Jenga — Product · 1 mention · first at 5:22
  And it's hilarious. We just played Jenga.
• SDM necklace — Product · 1 mention · first at 11:47
  We have the SDM necklace, the stay sexy and don't get murdered pendant necklace.
• Mothman plushie keychain — Product · 1 mention · first at 12:14
  We have a mothman plushie keychain to hang your keys up here, but then you got a mothman down here.
• Red flag beanie — Product · 1 mention · first at 12:26
• MFM script zip up hoodie — Product · 1 mention · first at 12:32
  And then our cozy MFM script zip up hoodie.
• William Clay Ford — Product · 1 mention · first at 1:07:47
  One is captain Don Erickson of the William Clay Ford, which is another big or freighter, and the other is none other than Captain Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Andersen.
• Nicotine patches — Product · 1 mention
  I discovered it that Georgia was doing nicotine pouches, not patches, while we were on tour.
• Tomato soup — Product · 1 mention · first at 27:31
  And I hear the special tonight is tomato soup.
• Miller Genuine Draft — Product · 1 mention · first at 1:12:52
  Miller. Genuine draft or. Something.
• Ambien — Product · 4 mentions · first at 33:34
  And she's found to have what is essentially Ambien in her system, which is an amount consistent with a normal dose.
• nicotine pouches — Product · 3 mentions · first at 2:37
  I discovered it that Georgia was doing nicotine pouches, not patches, while we were on tour.
• Big Fitz — Product · 3 mentions · first at 51:48
  And it is lovingly nicknamed Big Fitz.
• cigaret — Product · 2 mentions · first at 3:00
  I felt like such a I have definitely been when I was younger, the girl who gave someone their first cigaret. Yeah.
• cocaine — Product · 2 mentions · first at 18:37
  His sister is sort of a socialite and is known to be a minor cocaine dealer, although she won't be convicted of this for several more years.
• Jenga — Product · 2 mentions
• nicotine patch — Product · 1 mention · first at 2:54
  The Georgia was do you want to try? What, a nicotine patch.
• SDM necklace — Product · 1 mention · first at 11:47
  We have the SDM necklace, the stay sexy and don't get murdered pendant necklace.
• Mothman plushie keychain — Product · 1 mention · first at 12:14
  We have a mothman plushie keychain to hang your keys up here, but then you got a mothman down here.
• catnip — Product · 1 mention · first at 12:19
  Cute details on this little catnip. One of.
• Red Flag beanie — Product · 1 mention · first at 12:26
• MFM script zip up hoodie — Product · 1 mention · first at 12:32
  And then our cozy MFM script zip up hoodie.
• fire alarm — Product · 1 mention · first at 30:07
  Later that morning, there's a fire alarm in the building, and Phoebe's seen on the CCTV footage with her dog filing out of the apartment.
• compactor machine — Product · 1 mention · first at 32:14
  So the blade of the compactor machine at the bottom of the chute had badly injured her ankle on the way down.
• SIM card — Product · 1 mention · first at 38:36
  And by this time, the SIM card from her iPhone is gone, and her boyfriend admits to getting rid of it, thinking it wouldn't be useful for anything.
• SS Edmund Fitzgerald — Product · 1 mention · first at 49:08
  This is the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.
• SS Arthur Anderson — Product · 1 mention · first at 58:57
  There's another big iron ore freighter called the SS Arthur.
• William Clay Ford — Product · 1 mention · first at 1:07:48
  One is captain Don Erickson of the William Clay Ford, which is another big or freighter, and the other is none other than Captain Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Andersen.
• Edmund Fitzgerald's Bell — Product · 1 mention · first at 1:15:15
  In the mid 90s, they agreed that the Edmund Fitzgerald's Bell, which is the heart of any ship, should be excavated and brought up and used as a monument.

Concepts & topics

• Coroners Act — Concept · 1 mention · first at 46:18
  And so in 2018, because of this case of Victoria, partly because of this case, the Victoria Attorney General announces that there will be some reform to the 2008 Coroners Act…
• Witches of November — Concept · 1 mention · first at 56:57
  And that causes these violent storms that are called the witches of November.
• Panhandle hook — Concept · 1 mention · first at 57:34
  But what captain McSorley doesn't know is there is a powerful weather system moving out of the great Plains and doing what's called a Panhandle hook.
• MFM protocols — Concept · 1 mention · first at 7:28
  Passed along the MFM protocols, encourage them to stand up for what they believe in and remind them that caring for their four legged friends is just as beneficial to their own well-being.
• Tomato soup letter — Concept · 1 mention · first at 27:34
  This is known as a tomato soup letter.
• The Titanic — Ship · Historical reference · 1 mention · first at 1:07:17
  Mentioned in context of media comparisons
  And just for a very rough comparison, the Titanic, which is much, much larger, but still, it's comparable.
• Antifragility — Concept · 1 mention
• Cognitive Biases — Concept · 1 mention
• Cold Exposure — Concept · 1 mention
• Compound Interest — Concept · 1 mention
• Deep Work — Concept · 1 mention
• First Principles Thinking — Concept · 1 mention
• Incentive Design — Concept · 1 mention
• Intermittent Fasting — Concept · 1 mention
• Ketamine therapy — Concept · 1 mention
  Yes, I. Did, I did a nice ketamine session over the weekend.
• Lindy Effect — Concept · 1 mention
• Moore's Law — Concept · 1 mention
• Network Effects — Concept · 1 mention
• Pareto Principle — Concept · 1 mention
• Power Law — Concept · 1 mention
• Second-Order Thinking — Concept · 1 mention
• Stoicism — Concept · 1 mention
• Zone 2 Training — Concept · 1 mention
• coroner — Concept · 7 mentions · first at 17:46
  But he had been cleared of any involvement in or knowledge of her death by the coroner.
• garbage chute — Concept · 4 mentions · first at 24:57
  And this is how she died, by stepping feet first into the garbage chute of the 12th floor.
• CCTV — Concept · 4 mentions
• Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 11:47
  We have the SDM necklace, the stay sexy and don't get murdered pendant necklace.
• coroner system — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 42:46
  So meanwhile in Victoria, Australia, at this point they still use the antiquated coroner system which you used to see in the UK.
• misadventure — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 44:27
  Ultimately, the coroner ruled that Phoebe died, quote, by misadventure, meaning an accident.
• gale warning — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 58:32
  Okay, so 9:00 that night, it's seven hours into the Fitzgerald's trip and the National Weather Service issues a gale warning for Lake Superior, meaning that they're going to.
• Karaoke — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 1:18:26
  But also, if you want to absolutely destroy a karaoke night, you sign up for that song.
• Murderino — Concept · 2 mentions
• stress fracture / hull damage theory — Concept · 2 mentions
• ketamine — Concept · 1 mention · first at 2:14
  Yes, I. Did, I did a nice ketamine session over the weekend.
• MFM team — Concept · 1 mention · first at 7:00
  Dear Karen, Georgia and the MFM team, I wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting me through not only the tough times, but also for teaching me how to embrace the good ones.
• Monopoly man — Concept · 1 mention · first at 8:15
  It's the monopoly, man. English major. Okay.
• elder drug mule scams — Concept · 1 mention · first at 9:36
  Justice and the warning signs behind elder drug mule scams. Wow.
• pride parade — Concept · 1 mention · first at 10:11
  It's his impression of a pigeon, that pride parade.
• psychic swindlers — Concept · 1 mention · first at 10:20
  I love him, so he's on ghosted with Ross for a freaky deaky cosmic Kiki, they call it, and they get into psychic swindlers.
• paranormal ghost hunting — Concept · 1 mention · first at 10:24
  Aliens is silicon based life and Snooki's soon to debut paranormal ghost hunting.

Places & events

• Edmund Fitzgerald — Event · Core topic · 22 mentions · first at 49:08
  Central theme of the episode, discussing the mysterious sinking of the ship.
• Great Lakes — Place · 14 mentions · first at 48:54
• Lake Superior — Place · Setting · 11 mentions · first at 50:07
  The location where the SS Edmund Fitzgerald sank.
• November 10th — Event · Key date · 2 mentions · first at 1:01:12
  The day the SS Edmund Fitzgerald sank.
• November 9th, 1975 — Event · Key date · 2 mentions · first at 50:02
  The day the SS Edmund Fitzgerald set sail.
  And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, it all begins on a beautiful, sunny autumn morning on November 9th, 1975, in superior, Wisconsin, on the shores of Lake Superior.
• Six Fathoms Shoal — Place · 3 mentions · first at 1:01:52
  Then around 3 p.m., which is a full 24 hours into this trip, Captain Cooper looks at his radar and he sees that the Fitzgerald is dangerously close to Six Fathoms Shoal.
• Melbourne — Place · 6 mentions · first at 15:23
  On Thursday, December 2nd, 2010, at about 7 p.m., the concierge at a luxury high rise apartment complex in Melbourne called the Balenciaga goes to the refuse room on the ground floor where all the trash from the high rises trash chute goes.
• Thanksgiving — Event · 5 mentions · first at 0:24
  We sent out our newsletter asking you what?
• Whitefish Bay — Place · Setting · 5 mentions · first at 1:03:54
  The intended safe harbor for the SS Edmund Fitzgerald during the storm.
  And today, Big Fitz Bell is on display at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society Museum, which is fittingly located in Whitefish Point in Michigan, which is the entry point for Whitefish Bay.
• Michigan — Place · Setting · 4 mentions · first at 49:11
  One of the states bordering Lake Superior where the SS Edmund Fitzgerald was headed.
  And that will be several miles away in Whitefish Bay, which is on the eastern end of Lake Superior between Ontario and Michigan.
• Superior, Wisconsin — Place · Setting · 3 mentions · first at 50:07
  Starting point of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald's final voyage.
  And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, it all begins on a beautiful, sunny autumn morning on November 9th, 1975, in superior, Wisconsin, on the shores of Lake Superior.
• Sioux Sainte Marie — Place · Destination · 2 mentions · first at 51:17
  The intended destination of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald before it sank.
  The apartment belongs to Phoebe's boyfriend, and they've been together for about a year and a half, and Phoebe had moved in fairly shortly after meeting him.
• November 9th — Event · Key date · 1 mention · first at 50:02
  The date when the Edmund Fitzgerald set out on its final voyage.
  And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, it all begins on a beautiful, sunny autumn morning on November 9th, 1975, in superior, Wisconsin, on the shores of Lake Superior.
• 50th anniversary of the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald — Event · 1 mention · first at 1:16:48
  Just a few weeks ago, in November of 2025, events commemorating the 50th anniversary of the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald took place there, and as many as 3000 people showed up to pay tribute. Wow.
• November 13th, 2025 — Event · Key date · 1 mention · first at 1:17:51
  The 50th anniversary of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald's sinking.
  And the week of November 13th, 2025, when it was the anniversary the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald topped the U.S Billboard's Rock Digital Song sales for the very first time because 4 million Americans streamed it that week.
• Canada — Place · 4 mentions · first at 55:15
  Not long after the upgraded warning is posted, the captains decide they're going to reroute north and chart a new path that runs along the Canadian shoreline.
• Detroit — Place · Setting · 2 mentions · first at 50:52
  Final destination for the SS Edmund Fitzgerald's cargo.
  And now to steel mills in Rust Belt cities like Cleveland and Detroit.
• Christmas break — Event · 1 mention · first at 0:24
  We have two more weeks until the real Christmas break. Yes.
• Karen Reed case — Event · 1 mention · first at 38:52
  Like that's the. Karen Reed case. Remember the one copy?
• Victoria, Australia — Place · 1 mention · first at 42:40
  So meanwhile in Victoria, Australia, at this point they still use the antiquated coroner system which you used to see in the UK.
• Sioux Sainte Marie, Michigan — Place · 1 mention · first at 51:17
  So the ship has a 29 person crew that's currently tasked with freighting iron ore eastward toward Sioux Sainte Marie, Michigan, and then down to the lower Great Lakes and then ultimately landing in Detroit.
• Empire State Building — Place · 1 mention · first at 56:18
  It's roughly the size of Maine Lake Superior is, and at its deepest point, you could submerge the Empire State Building, and only its antenna would be sticking out of the lake.
• Whitefish Point — Place · 1 mention · first at 1:16:41
  And today, Big Fitz Bell is on display at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society Museum, which is fittingly located in Whitefish Point in Michigan, which is the entry point for Whitefish Bay.
• 911 — Event · 1 mention
• AWS re:Invent — Event · 1 mention
• Burning Man — Event · 1 mention
• Coachella — Event · 1 mention
• COVID-19 pandemic — Event · 1 mention
• Moon Landing — Event · 1 mention
• Oscars — Event · 1 mention
• Super Bowl — Event · 1 mention
• Y Combinator Demo Day — Event · 1 mention
• Edmond Fitzgerald — Place · Setting · 23 mentions · first at 7:15
  Mentioned in the context of a listener's location.
  It is named for the president of the insurance company that owns the ship, Edmund Fitz. Cherokee.
• Tokyo — Place · 2 mentions
  Well, this week over on The Knife, Hannah and Pasha talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters of Donna Nelson, who was arrested in Tokyo in January of 2023 on international drug smuggling charges.
• Los Angeles — Place · 1 mention · first at 1:32
  It took me 12 hours to get from San Francisco to Los Angeles.
• San Francisco — Place · 1 mention · first at 1:32
  It took me 12 hours to get from San Francisco to Los Angeles.
• Edmonds, Washington — Place · 1 mention · first at 7:15
  I'm a 47 year old Mexican father of two daughters, 21 and 24, living up here in Edmonds, Washington.
• Holiday season — Event · 1 mention · first at 8:10
  And an unsolicited compliments of the holiday season to you.
• Chicago — Place · 1 mention · first at 8:37
  And then it's a. Saw you in Chicago. You were great, Jenny.
• Western Australia — Place · 1 mention · first at 28:17
  When she receives this text, Phoebe's mom is about to get on a plane home from Western Australia, and she's so concerned that she asks her mom, Phoebe's grandma, to contact Phoebe's boyfriend.

Media & podcasts

• Phoebe's Fall — Media · 3 mentions · first at 15:19
  And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall, and it was an investigation by Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper The Age.
• The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald — Media · 4 mentions · first at 1:12:28
  So he goes into the studio and he records what would end up being his legendary ballad, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which he will later say is his proudest achievement. Wow.
• Gordon Lightfoot's The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald — Media · 1 mention
  So he goes into the studio and he records what would end up being his legendary ballad, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which he will later say is his proudest achievement. Wow.
• Brief Recess — Media · 2 mentions · first at 11:01
  And then tomorrow we'll be featuring episode one of Brief Recess, our newest podcast here on the mSME channel.
• M*A*S*H — Media · 2 mentions
  Tell them it's just like how the TV show Mash is a comedy about war.
• Sundown — Media · 2 mentions · first at 1:12:42
  If you, I think sundown might be one of my favorite songs of all time.
• Fleetwood Mac — Media · 1 mention · first at 2:33
  See, it worked for Fleetwood Mac and I, we think it's going to work for us.
• The Knife — Media · Podcast · 1 mention · first at 9:15
  A podcast mentioned in the episode's network highlights.
  Well, this week over on The Knife, Hannah and Pasha talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters of Donna Nelson, who was arrested in Tokyo in January of 2023 on international drug smuggling charges.
• That's messed up — Media · 1 mention · first at 9:45
  And then over on that's messed up.
• Ghosted — Media · 1 mention · first at 9:59
  Then on ghosted, Rose reunites with comedian oh, which is truly one of my very favorites these days.
• The Staircase — Media · 1 mention · first at 47:07
  All that additional information where it's it kind of reminds me of the staircase in that way.
• Newsweek — Media · Media source · 1 mention · first at 1:12:58
  Magazine that reported on the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald, inspiring Gordon Lightfoot's song.
  So he reads about the admits it's Gerald sinking in Newsweek.
• Breaking Bad — Media · 1 mention
• Game of Thrones — Media · 1 mention
• Inception — Media · 1 mention
• Joe Rogan Experience — Media · 1 mention
• Netflix documentaries — Media · 1 mention
• Rick and Morty — Media · 1 mention
• Stranger Things — Media · 1 mention
• The Office — Media · 1 mention
• The Social Dilemma — Media · 1 mention
• YouTube channels — Media · 1 mention

Sponsors

• Homeboy Industries — Sponsor · 3 mentions · first at 13:23
  So we're going to kick off December donation drive with $10,000 being donated to Homeboy Industries.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Lives where you love me. You. Hello and welcome. To my favorite murder. That’s Georgia Hardstark. That’s Karen Kilgariff. I have shit all over my head. She's having a night. She's having. A day, a night a. Year. This feels. And it's very stolen valor for me to make this comparison. But coming back from a Thanksgiving break to wait to go to on Christmas. Break. Very much feels like when I first heard that they used to make soldiers in Vietnam go for two weeks to, like, meet their wives in Hawaii and then come back to war where I'm like, wait, that's a horrible thing to do.

0:42 Yeah, I hear you. We have two more weeks until the real Christmas break. Yes. And this is hard to come back. It's like we went on tour, I was insane. I still can't get over the fact that it's over. It's a story. Can't believe that I know. And then it's also, like, hard to go away from, like, people cheering for you forever. And then also now it's like. Welcome back. For two weeks, no. One was excited to see me when I went home for. Thanksgiving. I wouldn't cheer you up. Looking at people going, you do realize that I just been spent three months experiencing.

1:10 Sorry, do you know who I think I am? You better get on board with this. How are you? I'm good. Because we've been on tour. I wanted to bring the dogs home for Thanksgiving, so I drove up north as if I don't count in the big Thanksgiving travel nightmare. It's different for you. It's like different. Me? I've been doing this for so long. I know how to do it. Or something. The way home. It took me 12 hours to get from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Everyone needs to know it's a six hour drive usually. So it's as if I drove home to Los Angeles and then back to San Francisco.

1:42 Essentially, that feeling when you get to the great line and you're like, I'm almost there, but you're fucking not almost there, because that's when the worst of the traffic starts. Because the 99 and then this thing with the trucks comes and it is like a big nightmare, big y of traffic. And then you sit there for three more hours. Jesus. I'm sorry to deal with that. Listen, stay at home. It was. You were fine. Excellent. Are you fully rested right now? I don't want to tell you. I don't want to say. I don't want to make you feel bad.

2:12 But you feel pretty fucking. Yes, I. Did, I did a nice ketamine session over the weekend. Hey, what does that mean? Therapeutic ketamine. You and some. Horses? Yeah. I went to the stables into ketamine, and. Yeah, I'm. Rested. I'm very rested. I'm like clear. Minded, and I give you, I gave you drugs. Just now, though, too. Yeah. George and I are doing drugs before the show. It's a it's a thing we're going to try out. See, it worked for Fleetwood Mac and I, we think it's going to work for us. It's just. Nicotine pouches.

2:38 That is my like, new thing. I discovered it that Georgia was doing nicotine pouches, not patches, while we were on tour. I'm doing both, but pouches? Oh, you're doing it all. Careful. I know. But then right before we started, I was like. I drove for 12 hours. The Georgia was like, do you want to try? What, a nicotine patch. I felt like such a I have definitely been when I was younger, the girl who gave someone their first cigaret. Yeah. And I was that. Don't hang out with her. She's a bad influence person entirely.

3:06 So I totally had flashbacks to that with you. Yeah, just now. And it felt kind of good. Yeah, it's a great feeling. It is. It's the full rebel. It's like day drinking. Like, not supposed to do it. Do it, do. It, do it. Corrupt you. Yeah. It's fun for everyone. Come over to our side. Yeah. We shouldn't drink, right? It stinks. That's great. We shouldn't have a drink right now. Do you want to have. We should get a bottle. Are you and also, it's like. Are you super tired? Well, this might work. I mean, I don't know, but it's something.

3:33 Yeah. Me feeling it. I think I do. There's like a I feel like things got a little more in focus. Yeah. Does that. Make sense? It does. I did it so hard the other day that I was such in such a good mood that I called my mom and had a great conversation with her, which only happens when I have at least one drink. And we have a great conversation about cats and about, you know, you know, I don't know, nice things. Flowers. Yeah. But this time you were just like, oh, what's up mom. I love you. Yeah. I mean, look, as my therapist said, and I've said a million times on the show, everybody needs a little oblivion. They do.

4:05 And even if it's nicotine oblivion in a pouch like you're an old cowboy. Yeah, I love the. I do too much oblivion. I do what my therapist calls. I win by losing where I was, like, I get back at something I'm mad at by drinking. Yeah, and it's not hurting the thing I'm mad at. No, it's fucking up. The thing I am. Which is you, which is me. Yep. Oh, yes. I know, but it's like, then they shouldn't have invented it and they shouldn't have made it so effective. Truly, I have to say on par with drinking though. What we did a lot this holiday I guess week weekend was we played a lot of games.

4:44 So it was like Thanksgiving night. You guys love that shit. We love games. And the the one that I really love is the three. It's basically three rounds of charades where you get to say full sentences. The first round, one word, the second round, charades, the last round. Okay, but you have to remember the clues people gave. Why on the other teams, because then you'll get it. Goes back in the same bowl. Oh, so you. Just point at that person to. Be like what they did. Exactly. Oh, like that. And then like bowling or whatever.

5:14 And then people know, okay, yeah, it's very fun. And it's fun because people think they're not going to be good at it, and they're great at it because they just want to win. And it's hilarious. We just played Jenga. That's what my oh that's good. Were you on a cruise? The cruise game I'm. Thinking of those. Have you seen those giant Jenga? Yes. Hilarious. Yeah. That's you know what it is. Whether it's drinking nicotine pouches are just like, fun. Agreed upon fun. Yeah. I want that cruise in the afternoon. Feel. I've never been on a cruise, and I want that, too.

5:46 I don't even know really what you mean, but I bet I guess post snap. Yeah. Pre-dinner. Yeah. Like cocktail hour where you're. Everyone's agreed that no one's going to talk about work. No one's going to be worried. We're all just going to be weird versions of ourselves and have fun. No Wi-Fi, no Wi-Fi. You don't need. It. Everyone's in there like socks and stuff. No one's going to shoot. Like, I get really, like, uptight ones, like, are you about to leave? Where are you going? Why? You have to take those. You have to take your shoes off and somebody has to spill red wine on the carpet.

6:16 So the consult up a red wine stain. I've got it. I'm getting there. That's what. Sophie did it to Anna, and it was this big, huge thing. And we couldn't stop laughing because my aunt Jean, who was there and my mom, every single time we got together, someone would spill red wine on the carpet. So it was like, just the perfect. Yes, it's good luck. Yeah. Speaking of good luck, this is my favorite. Oh, no, we don't do that anymore. But that's a live show thing. Oh, I know, I like that it's over. We have some responses from you guys.

6:43 We sent out our newsletter asking you what? What you're thankful for. Thanksgiving in general. If you have anything to tell us about stuff that went down or yes, what you're thankful for, anything. Okay, I write. In suite one. This one is called Thank you for more than just the Tough Times. Dear Karen, Georgia and the MFM team, I wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting me through not only the tough times, but also for teaching me how to embrace the good ones. I may not be your typical fan or listener. I'm a 47 year old Mexican father of two daughters, 21 and 24, living up here in Edmonds, Washington.

7:19 But I've been with you since day one. A brother from another mother, as they say. Yes, your insight and humor gave me the tools to better communicate with my daughters. Oh my God, I've. Passed along the MFM protocols, encourage them to stand up for what they believe in and remind them that caring for their four legged friends is just as beneficial to their own well-being. Yes, those lessons have meant more to me than you know. Although I have two sisters of my own, you both have become the West Coast sisters. I never knew I needed. This guys trying to make me cry.

7:46 I know I'm not going to do it. It says a bunch of really sweet things. And then it says, thank you for being exactly who you are and for letting me be part of this community with warmth and love. SSD Jim angel. Angel, this is such a delight to know that you are here with. Us. Sweet baby angels here with us. Sweet baby angel. We should send him a shirt. Let's do it. Well, this goes very much along with that email and it just says, hello ladies. And an unsolicited compliments of the holiday season to you. Oh wow. It's the monopoly, man. English major. Okay.

8:18 So I thought of something that might help you with folks who frown upon the idea of a true crime comedy podcast. Tell them it's just like how the TV show Mash is a comedy about war. How genius is that? Brilliant. Like a dark comedy, right? This ought to help soothe people's feelings. Well, at least people over 40 years. So. Seriously? And then it's a. Saw you in Chicago. You were great, Jenny. Oh, isn't that nice? That's so nice. It's like, if you're listening to this podcast and you think of things like that, if you have tips or tricks for.

8:47 Us right. Hopefully you know. What do you tell your friends when you're like, you should listen to this podcast? It's I know it sounds, but it's like, what is that? Right? We want to. Know. Yeah. An angel. If you have some suggestions. You've been here since day one. Get in here. Get back in here. Back in here. Angel. According to Angel. I'm so grateful for. For that tip from Jenny. And for Angel. Baby. And thanks, guys. Explaining. Hey. We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.

9:15 Well, this week over on The Knife, Hannah and Pasha talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters of Donna Nelson, who was arrested in Tokyo in January of 2023 on international drug smuggling charges. They immediately suspected the man, Donna, had been dating online to be responsible for this, and so they shared their family's heartbreaking story and their fight for justice. Justice and the warning signs behind elder drug mule scams. Wow. I'd never even heard of that. Is something else. Okay. And then over on that's messed up.

9:46 Kara and Liza break down the SBU episode. They had already disappeared with actor Blake DeLong. Then they dive into the shocking real life case of Anatoly Musquin and his 29 mummified human dolls. Then on ghosted, Rose reunites with comedian oh, which is truly one of my very favorites these days. Vinnie Thomas, he's the one. I'm sure he told you he has an amazing TikTok and he does that bit where he goes. It's his impression of a pigeon, that pride parade. Yeah, and it's. There at some. Brand. It's the funniest. I love him, so he's on ghosted with Ross for a freaky deaky cosmic Kiki, they call it, and they get into psychic swindlers.

10:24 Aliens is silicon based life and Snooki's soon to debut paranormal ghost hunting. That kind of love that fits. For her somehow. First, like, perfectly, even though it makes no sense. It's not connected at all. But it's like, yeah. Yes please. I also think that Snooki's personality, I think she was wronged in the time where they got popular. Yes. And it was so easy to dump on Snooki. Right. And I think she deserves to do whatever the fuck she wants because people want to watch. Unless she's a star, she is a star. Okay.

10:53 And then tomorrow. Will be feature said about Snooki. Justice for Snooki. God damn it. Why are you pressing Snooki? And then tomorrow we'll be featuring episode one of Brief Recess, our newest podcast here on the mSME channel. This episode features Congressman Robert Garcia, the ranking member and top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Then be sure to go over the brief recess feed and check out their first four episodes. Please, please, please binge the newest podcast on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcast and rate review.

11:25 Subscribe. Also brief recesses on YouTube. They're just as much a video podcast as they are. Audio one so go watch them at youtube.com. Slash at brief recess. Also, attention holiday shoppers, the Exactly right store has been fully stocked with gorgeous trinkets and treasures for you and your loved ones. We have added. Do you want to go through this list together? Sure. Oh, I already I own this one already. We have the SDM necklace, the stay sexy and don't get murdered pendant necklace. It's so beautiful. Let me get my dirtiest hand in there.

11:56 Beautiful. I have the gold one and I wear it all the time. It's fucking beauty. It's like like not not shitty. It's not shiny. And also, what a cute little bag it says. My favorite like honor. Established 2016 on the front. Keep your nicotine pouches in it. Worth it. Just for. That. See if I can pouch this up. Right now. We have a mothman plushie keychain to hang your keys up here, but then you got a mothman down here. Cute details on this little catnip. One of. These. Nicole. Oh, that's a great idea. Okay. And then, our red flag beanie.

12:29 You have that? The cutest. That red flag, I love it. And then our cozy MFM script zip up hoodie. So it's just my favorite murder in script. It's pretty simple and, like, straightforward. I love that. And then it says Murder Reno on the sleeve. I mean, do you want to. Do you want to come out as a murder Reno? That's pretty fucking cool. If you're. Ready. It's like also like really good material. Vince is always, like, really obsessed with the good material on off on merch. And he would this would pass his test. I know Nicole really does not slouch. She gets good. Wine.

12:58 She does. She's she cares. So good. Exactly right. Store to shop. Now before we get started real quick, we want to do our December donation announcement. You guys know every December, every week, every episode, we like to donate to a great cause. And this is actually one of my personal favorites. I talked about this book. Yeah, Father Greg's book. So we're going to kick off December donation drive with $10,000 being donated to Homeboy Industries. And that's this, nonprofit here in L.A. dedicated to providing hope, training and support to formerly gang involved in previously incarcerated people, allowing them to redirect their lives and become contributing members of our community.

13:38 They offer a wide variety of services, ranging from tattoo removal to anger management and parenting classes. So if you'd like to join us in giving to this very important cause, go to their website at Homeboy industries.org. They actually have a really great cafe and they are making TikToks where it's like a bunch of guys that look like tough guys that go up and they order black coffee, but it's like the little we talked about that, right? Yeah. And they're actually like getting their like soy latte. Oh wait a minute, pumpkin spice latte.

14:06 And then they're all like going over and sipping them all cute. It's the funniest. Yeah. So cute. Also, if you're not in a place to give money right now, they're looking for volunteers. So there's volunteer opportunities, around tutoring. They need experienced teachers, and they would also like some volunteers that are mental. Health professionals. I love that. So let's find ways to look out for each other in the coming year. Yay yay. The way Homeboy Industries. Does. Thanks you guys for helping us donate. Yeah. All right, I'm first. Whoo! Whoo hoo hoo!

14:36 I have been. I guess the word isn't looking forward to telling you this story, right? Because it's smash. It's a comedy about Vietnam. There's. Yeah, there's real war in these. Right? So it's not looking forward to. But the story is fascinating. And we're going to Australia for this one. So this is a story of the mysterious death of a young woman in Australia about 15 years ago. It's a troubling case that doesn't have a clear answer. It's not a cold case, necessarily, but the most troubling part is probably how the initial investigation was handled.

15:10 This is the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe handshake. And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall, and it was an investigation by Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper The Age. It's one of those classic deep dive. They interview the whole family and friends and just really get into this case and asks the great questions that are that never were asked by the police. So it's a really good podcast. I highly recommend it.

15:41 And it's always stuck with me because this the girl Phoebe reminds me of me or us or murdering us or people we would know. She just seems very oh, let's just get. Into it, okay? On Thursday, December 2nd, 2010, at about 7 p.m., the concierge at a luxury high rise apartment complex in Melbourne called the Balenciaga goes to the refuse room on the ground floor where all the trash from the high rises trash chute goes. So each floor has a trash chute. Trash goes to this this room. She is looking for a broom to sweep something up, but when she tries to get into the refuse room, the door is stuck.

16:19 When she gets the door open, she sees blood and a body and she panics. She first calls her boss, then the police, and it's quickly determined that this is a young building resident named Phoebe. Please very quickly come up with an explanation that Phoebe had taken her own life, and because of this, they make many mistakes. Over the course of their very short investigation, and it will leave many questions unanswered. The first thing they do is they don't check for a pulse. They don't check for signs of life. And it's it's the homicide detectives.

16:50 So, like, you'd think that they know to establish that immediately. Right. Like that's the first thing you do. Is it assumed that if they're there, it's because it already has been established. I don't think it's supposed to be. Okay. Because the whole thing is like signs of life is like important. And so they don't even check her pulse. I mean, yeah, so that's what's going on. But let's talk about Phoebe. Phoebe had been 24 and she had lived with her boyfriend, who's 45. They live in that luxury apartment on the 12th floor of this building.

17:19 The apartment belongs to Phoebe's boyfriend, and they've been together for about a year and a half, and Phoebe had moved in fairly shortly after meeting him. We do know that their relationship was somewhat rocky, and Phoebe had talked about ending it on multiple occasions, and maybe even tried to end it and just kept going back to him. This man is, I'm just going to call him Anthony. That's his name. But he had been cleared of any involvement in or knowledge of her death by the coroner. So I'm not gonna say his last name, but you can find it anywhere.

17:52 The journalist from the age take pains to say that they are not arguing with that, finding that he's not involved, but because his name comes up a lot in connection with this case. And at the same time, he's not been charged with any crime. I'm not going to use his last name, but in any case, his name is Anthony, and he's kind of a mover and shaker in Melbourne as he's a very successful producer of major events. So he kind of is like in the know, he goes to like all the cool parties he throws all the cool parties.

18:20 You know he's got money. That kind of thing. Yeah. His parents are both judges. His father is a retired Victoria Supreme Court judge and his mother is a district judge. So you know, well off and and like also well-respected in the community. Yeah. His sister is sort of a socialite and is known to be a minor cocaine dealer, although she won't be convicted of this for several more years. And when that does happen, when she does get convicted of it and found was as selling cocaine, she gets a very light sentence because of her parents connections.

18:52 I mean, so. To have two parents. As judges. Yeah. Wow. Like good luck going through. Yeah. The system. You are the system, right? Yeah. So meanwhile, Phoebe. Come on. Still got it. Meanwhile, let's talk about Phoebe. She's born on May 9th, 1986, and grew up in a lovely part of Melbourne with her parents and two brothers. Seems like she had a really lovely childhood, and she's known for being creative and beautiful and, like, stops people in their tracks. But she also seems like she's kind of. She seems like she'd be a murderer now. She has.

19:24 She seems very artistic. She seems like the cool girl in high school who, like, always took photos and was in, like, art classes and photography classes and should appear slip and like, short, spiky hair. She was just cool. She was a cool girl. Yeah, like someone you'd want to be friends with. Yeah. I just really quick on that. I just saw a TikTok that was all about having hobbies is not just like a pastime or a distraction. Like hobbies, especially in women, teaches you how to care about the things like care about yourself and invest in yourself and then develop.

19:57 So it's like you start it as a hobby and you're like, say, playing the guitar. And if you just keep doing it, eventually you'll get good and then you can actually do something with it. And that idea where it's just like that. I love the idea of like girls in high school that are like, I want to be a photographer. I'm into photography, and it's like, you don't have to do that. Forever right? Just like Chase, that kind of instinct and know. All about those, like temporary hobbies and just like, what's new? What's next? Try it out. See? See how you feel.

20:24 And so she has a rebellious streak. Totally reminds me of being in the 90s as a precocious teenager. She starts going into clubs with fake IDs when she's 13, starts drinking and doing drugs. It's exactly what I did. And this would be Melbourne in the 90s. So at 16, Phoebe gets her first job at McDonald's. And this is just kind of like a way to show you what how she was and what she was like. I love this story. She hates the job. She quits after her second day. But when you quit your job at McDonald's, you have to return your uniform.

20:55 And Phoebe had come to work wearing it, so she decided she's had enough. She quits, she goes into the back room, strips off the uniform, and then runs home in her underwear so she doesn't have to pay them for the uniform. Like that's the kind of like, hi. Like I want that girl to be my friend. Yeah. You know what a cool girl for sure. Yeah. She seems like someone you'd be, like, following on Instagram now who's like, an influencer who does really fun, cool stuff. And, you know, Phoebe's close with her family, but her parents get divorced when she's in her teens, and she is estranged from her father for a while.

21:26 But they ultimately repair their relationship, and she's really close with her grandmother, a woman named Phyllis, and Phoebe trusts her completely. She really tells her grandma anything, including about her teenage exploits and experimentation with drugs, which my grandma would have had a fucking heart attack. I told her. What I was doing, but this grandma was cool and totally non-judgmental. But she is also honest when she's worried about what Phoebe is telling her. Because the grandma had done her fair amount of experimenting herself.

21:57 Phyllis is upfront with Phoebe about her own experiences with drugs, including LSD, saying how she didn't tolerate psychedelics well. So be very careful. It's like not for everyone. And Phoebe respects her grandmother, but ultimately pays a normal amount of teenage attention to this advice, which is not. Thanks so much. Thanks for your input, Senator. Go. And so she definitely struggles with that to some extent with mental health and with drug and alcohol use. As a lot of us do, it's sort of blur fits into what is considered the expectations for young people.

22:33 Her family isn't too fazed by her relationship with much older men, which she's always had, including a relationship with a teacher. When she was in high school, he was 30 and she was 16, but it seems like the mother and the grandmother had both had always had relationships with older men and didn't see it as problematic. And he, like, lived with them for a while. And it's so hard to say nowadays, like, you can't date your students. There's a fucking our children. Yeah. You're not supposed. Yes. No, that's wrong. But they don't see it as problematic. And yeah.

23:05 So all this is to say there's a lot going on in Phoebe's life, much of it typical for someone who's 24. But people can't seem to agree. If Phoebe's alcohol and drug use and relationships have crossed over into a territory that's more worrying. In the weeks leading up to her death, Phoebe was in close contact with her psychologist and did seem to be in some amount of distress about her relationship with her boyfriend. And as well as her drinking, which she thought was getting out of control. And there might have been some drug use as well, because, you know, he was in the nightlife scene.

23:37 Yeah. And his sister, as we now know, was selling cocaine. Yeah. Which is to say, if you already have mental health issues, adding those things are very detrimental. And proximity with stuff like that, it's like, yeah, if you can get away from it. That's why people are like, then I moved to the country or whatever. Exactly. Because if you're right in it and that's where all your friends are and that's what they're doing. And you're trying to keep up with this older crowd or like, and she wasn't the type of person who was like, she didn't have a ton of money.

24:05 But this crowd that he ran in, you know, they threw parties for like, Nicole Kidman and like famous people. And they had all this money and I, you know, designer things. And so she was kind of 24 and trying to keep up. Yeah. That's like a that's a world we've all been told we're supposed to want to be in. Right. Her therapist says that during that week, Phoebe was talking about taking her own life, but it hadn't risen to the level that she thought she should send a crisis assessment team to the apartment. Like she hadn't mentioned it before.

24:34 But not with any concrete plans, which I think is the thing that they always look for. And she later says that she regrets not sending someone to help her. All that said, while people close to Phoebe agree that she was experiencing mental health struggles, perhaps even more severe ones, no one can understand how she could have possibly taken her own life. And this is how she died, by stepping feet first into the garbage chute of the 12th floor. So problematic. And that's why she was found down in the trash. Room. Right?

25:09 I got. Yeah. So many things are weird. There's no fingerprints or handprints left behind in the garbage chute. You can imagine, like my room when I had at my old apartment. Yeah. It's tiny. It's like you open it. It's the size of a laptop. So if someone were to put her in or she were to go in herself, there would be handprints. Clear handprints? Yes. But there weren't any. And it's unclear totally. If it was like, they just weren't any usable prints or no prints at all. Like, fully wiped down. Exactly. Both of which are, you know, don't make a lot of sense.

25:41 The other thing, too, is that her family and friends say that, you know, she did struggle with mental health. She did have a hard time taking her medications all the time. So her being suicidal wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility. But they point out that she had a balcony and or they point out that she was just this free spirit who loved nature. She would have. Taken her own life in a different way. You know, she was an artistic, creative person. You do. You don't put yourself in a fucking trash chute like, that's not you don't do that.

26:16 It sounds yeah, it sounds unrealistic, but it's also just like it feels like if you're in a moment like that, you're not also trying to torture. Yourself right away. It's very, very suspicious. Like you think that the police, the first thing they would do when they got there would be to assume that it like to assume immediately that that is suicide is so far fetched. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like to conclude it eventually, maybe. But to assume an immediately and and go. From there. That. Way is super suspicious. Yeah. So on Tuesday November 30th, two days before her death, Phoebe goes out partying and gets so drunk that she spends pretty much the entire day.

26:58 Wednesday, December 1st in bed with a hangover. Phoebe's family says this happened some times. And on the morning of December 1st, at about 10:30 a.m., Phoebe sends out a group text to her mom, brothers, grandma, her boss, and her boyfriend, the one she lives with, and it's concerning. And so I'm going to read it to you. It's very odd. It says, quote hi family, I am in bed and about to sleep and when I wake I will turn into the most incredible human being you've ever seen. Not I will go to the hospital. It's safer there.

27:31 And I hear the special tonight is tomato soup. This is known as a tomato soup letter. Delicious nutritious. I love you all very much, but not enough to send an individual text. Sorry about that. But time is sleep and I must be on my way. Merrily, merrily, merrily life is but a dream. Exile. So that is the text she sends to everyone. I'm. I try to wrap my head around it, having been hung over really bad myself and the like chemise that you get and the guilt and you're awful. And I need to fix this. And I want to tell my friends and family that, like, I swear I'm going to fix this and I'm going to get better.

28:09 But it doesn't make sense. It's just a weird text. Yeah. When she receives this text, Phoebe's mom is about to get on a plane home from Western Australia, and she's so concerned that she asks her mom, Phoebe's grandma, to contact Phoebe's boyfriend. So he picks up the call. He says he's at work, but he'll check on Phoebe after work, and this story gets even more muddy and strange because by some accounts and it's so convoluted. Phoebe's boyfriend had her cell phone at the time that message was sent. He said he had taken it to work that day because it was broken.

28:42 So I'm going to drop it off at the store. But why would that text then come from it? It seems like someone else wrote the text, right? And it's also like perfect punctuation. Perfect, you know, casing. Like if she was drunk or high or there were hung. Over that going on. Yeah. But also it's like he receives the text. He's on that thread. Right. But then he also has the phone. Right. And there's a huge amount of confusion about the timeline and whereabouts of this iPhone. It sounds like Phoebe maybe had two phones and still had the second one on Wednesday, but it's just hard to tell.

29:20 That evening, Phoebe does talk on the phone with her father for about ten minutes, but the call happens on her boyfriend's phone, not hers, and they make a plan to have dinner together the next night. The next day, Thursday, the day Phoebe dies, Phoebe's boyfriend leaves for work, and by some of his later accounts, Phoebe had her iPhone up until this point, and this is the day he takes it to be fixed. He kind of changes his story a couple times, which is suspicious. Is this not making sense to you? Any questions? No, no, I'm right with you.

29:47 It's just weird knowing that you already kind of gave the caveat that he's not involved and hasn't has been cleared where it's like. But all these things like. Yeah, we don't believe we think that the reason he's cleared is because it was not properly investigated, not because he actually had nothing to do. With it. Okay. So regardless, he leaves in the morning while Phoebe is still sleeping. Later that morning, there's a fire alarm in the building, and Phoebe's seen on the CCTV footage with her dog filing out of the apartment.

30:15 Some people point out that she seems to stumble in the footage at one point, but, saying like maybe she had been drinking, but she seems surefooted walking back into the building. So it's hard to say. Around noon, Phoebe's boyfriend's house cleaner comes to the apartment, and she's the last person we know of to see Phoebe alive and speak to her. She says Phoebe seems sick and hung over, but not depressed. Otherwise normal. So at 6 p.m., Phoebe's boyfriend returns to the apartment. He says it was empty when he got there, but he saw broken glass on the floor, as well as a small amount of blood in some places, including on the computer keyboard.

30:52 He says Phoebe's like purse with her wallet in it is on the counter, which is where she always takes her purse with her. So he doesn't know where she is. He has a cigaret, has a beer, and then orders Thai food. Which is a weird thing because he and Phoebe were supposed to meet with her dad that night for Thai food at the same restaurant, but he doesn't know where she is. They have plans, and then he orders Thai food. They have plans for dinner, right? Like it doesn't. It doesn't add up when the Thai food comes just after 7 p.m..

31:24 The delivery guy mentions that there are police and the the building's foyer or something's going on. And that's when Anthony, the boyfriend, goes downstairs to discover that Phoebe's body had been found. Right. Yeah. I'm just thinking, like you have these plans and then your girlfriend is like, you can't get a hold of her. The idea that you're just going to have some dinner, right. Feels odd. Yes. Yeah. Like I wonder what Vince would think if he came home and I wasn't there and my purse was there. He know something was wrong.

31:57 You just been working on that problem? Yeah. I don't think he ordered dinner. I better eat, right. Or like. Yeah. So this is all pretty awful. Trigger warning. Phoebe had fallen 12 storeys through that shoot. More than 100ft first. So the blade of the compactor machine at the bottom of the chute had badly injured her ankle on the way down. Once it gets to the bottom, there is a blade for the trash, nearly severing her foot. Sorry, but it's clear from the blood on the floor of the refuse room that Phoebe had survived, that she had climbed out of the bin and crawled across the room trying to get out before ultimately dying of blood.

32:40 Loss is what she died for. Oh, that's horrible. I. Know, I mean, that's the. Worst case. Scenario. It's really awful. She's found with her jeans down around her ankles, which. Is. A weird mystery, too. Did they come down when she fell or. A lot of people are like a way to get her legs together to fit her in the chute. If someone had said put her there would be to pull that her jeans down around her ankle, you know what I mean? So that's really suspicious. There's no signs of sexual assault, but she does have some bruises on various parts of her body, like her wrist and her arm.

33:13 Places where, you know, someone would have had to grab her to have those bruises, but that's inconclusive. And then. So Phoebe's blood alcohol content is 0.16, which is twice the legal driving limit in the US and triple the legal limit in Australia. Oh wow. So this part is like, what people point to when they're like, she did it herself. And she's found to have what is essentially Ambien in her system, which is an amount consistent with a normal dose. But she also had a lot of alcohol. The coroner writes in his report that he believes Phoebe climbed into the chute in a sleepwalking state induced by the alcohol and sleeping pills.

33:50 But Phoebe's family points out that they had seen her drunk on numerous occasions because she didn't have a particularly high tolerance, and they did say she was very quick to lose her sea legs. But they are extremely skeptical that she could have climbed into the chute with that amount of alcohol in her system. So it's almost like they're saying that the alcohol and Ambien made her do it. Everyone else who does it thinks are saying, how could she have done that if she were on that much alcohol and Ambien? Yeah. And like, yeah, I mean, and why you have to ask why she would do that I just don't it doesn't make sense.

34:24 Especially knowing that she lived through. It right where it's. Like, why would you do a thing that wouldn't if you're going to go through something like that and make a decision, right? And so aversion, if she put herself in there, I don't think she would have known she was going to die. So she actually was wanting to take her own life. There's so many other ways to do it. But if she was like, totally impaired, right? Alcohol on Ambien, maybe it wasn't a decision making process that was like normal or linear. But if she was totally impaired on alcohol, on Ambien, how could she have climbed up into the chute, fit her entire body?

34:56 You know, like, yeah. And without leaving Prince behind? Yeah, right. It's just weird. Yeah, it's weird either way. So the chute is about three feet off the ground, and it's one of those ones that doesn't stay open unless you hold it open. And there's really nothing to hold on to. If you were going to climb in. It's just. In a wall. And it would be easy enough to get one leg in, but you'd have to be very small and very strong and very agile to get in. And that said, Phoebe is actually incredibly fit. She is learning karate and kickboxing.

35:27 She spends hours at the gym. She's also a great climber, and so it might be physically possible for her to climb into the garbage chute. But at the same time, the fact that there's no usable fingerprints or handprints, Phoebe's or anyone else's is very suspicious. So this is the botched investigation. There are many, many missed opportunities at the beginning of this investigation where the Melbourne homicide squad does not gather crucial evidence. For starters, as I said, no one checks her body for signs of life.

35:55 She clearly was alive for some amount of time after her fall because of the crawling. So there might have been a chance that she was hanging on still. And help first came so the investigating officers are part of Melbourne's homicide squad, as I said. So it's not like the idea of this case involving involving foul play would have immediately been dismissed out of hand. I think that is not the first thing I would think if I saw the scene is she took her own life. Not at all. Right. No, I mean, I wouldn't. When they investigate, Phoebe and her boyfriend's apartment, they do find the small bloodstains on the wood floor shattered dishes nearby, but they don't take the shattered dishes to see where it came from.

36:33 There's two glasses that had been used, like cups on a bench. Like to me that says two people had been there. They also don't, take samples of her blood, and they don't take her, her cell phone that she has and her computer as evidence to just see what's in there. There could be a, you know, a suicide note. Maybe they don't even check that and they don't take the laptop for that reason. There's also blood on the laptop, and they still don't take it. That's crazy. Yeah. Police also don't take the building's CCTV footage on the day of Phoebe's death.

37:11 They look at it. The building manager, who is in this podcast says that, like, he offered it to them. He told them that it's on a two day loop. And so it it it erases itself every two days. He lets them know that he offers it to them and they don't take it, and they don't even look to see, like. Just like who's in the building. Yeah. Entrances and exits. Like even just to, like, rule it out. Like no one was there. Yeah. That's very strange, right? It's only after more than two days have elapsed that the police contact the company that services the building.

37:41 CCTV footage, to try to recover it. And unsurprisingly, most of it's gone. And this includes all the footage of the garage under the building, which would have shown who came and went around the time of Phoebe stuff. It just that. Doesn't track at all. No, it's just basic police work. No matter what kind of crime you're you're looking at. There also appears to be no footage from Phoebe's hallway or the room where the garbage chute was. The police also don't lock down any particular crime scene, so there's actually three crime scenes.

38:09 If you really look at it here. There's the apartment, there's the room where the shoot is, and then there's the, refuse room. Those are three crime scenes that should have been cordoned off. Not one of them are, and then, and Phoebe's boyfriend and his family judges are, in the apartment the whole time. This is going on and allowed back in the apartment? Oh, no. Allegedly. Allegedly, allegedly. They don't take any of Phoebe's electronics for months. And by this time, the SIM card from her iPhone is gone, and her boyfriend admits to getting rid of it, thinking it wouldn't be useful for anything.

38:43 I have never gotten rid of a SIM card. I don't even know how to do it. You know who does like weird spies and stuff? Exactly. Like anyone that's like, oh, pop this out and throw it into the river. Like that's the. Karen Reed case. Remember the one copy? Like, throw away a sim card that's so sketchy is very. Yeah. No, very, very. Rid of SIM cards. No I. Had my phones from like 2006. So if you could find out what's on there. I've tried. It's really boring. Oh, it's like just photos. It's just so dumb. It's so, like bad photos. Don't look back. Don't like that. Don't do it.

39:15 But also I didn't really put the I mean sitting with this. And then it's like you suddenly can see like and allegedly allegedly I'm making this up. But it's just like trying to assemble some sort of idea of what was going on that night where it's like two judges are in the apartment. Yeah, basically dictating what is and is not going to happen. Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? Yeah. But that idea as one theory suddenly is like, oh, right. Don't look at that. Shut that down. Don't go over there like, this is you. Also think that they would want that to happen.

39:45 Yeah. They didn't think that he had anything to do with it. They would be like, what are you doing. This isn't protocol, right. Yes. And that everybody in here and have everybody, people. Who think it's suicide and he thinks she took her own life is him and his family. Yeah. Like that. Is fucking. It's not great. That's not great. They immediately are telling like their friends and people. They know that it's suicide. Like putting it on Facebook. Figure out what. Happened. Yes. They're the only ones who think that it's not suspicious.

40:15 That's to me is like the biggest red flag. It's not gray. No. Also, her sunglasses were found with her. Why would she have her sunglasses on? I mean. You know, what else they didn't do is check the trash bins where she was found. They didn't check inside. Inside something that was in the room. Where her body was. Right. So, like, maybe, okay, maybe she went to take trash out, legitimately ran into some awful monster and that happened. But then also like, why was there glass broken in the apartment. Why was there blood. Why were there two glasses.

40:49 Why did you ever glasses with her. Why did she ever sunglasses with her. Like did she run into someone nefarious. Yeah. Police also didn't take samples. I guess there were mysterious large shoe prints leading away from the apartment, and they didn't check that out at all. And then the other phone, she had had been lost. So it's just her laptop and it's months, months later that they finally take it. So Phoebe's grandfather, Len, is a retired police detective. So he's like, fuck this shit. Yeah. And while he's devastated to lose his granddaughter, people who have spoken to him tend to agree that he's approached the question around her death logically and rationally.

41:28 He gets in contact with the company that makes the garbage chute, and the company allows him. Basically, they make him a reproduction of the shoot. He's like, there's no way she would've put herself in there, gets a reproduction of the shoot, and then asks her friend, a couple of her friends for the same size to reenact, like how she would have gotten into the shoot and filmed the whole thing. And with tremendous effort. And there's video of it, they're able to get themselves into the shoot, but not without bracing themselves on the shoot and the wall around it, which would have left, like, I think, clear finger and palm prints.

42:01 And they can't fit into the shoot without lifting their arms above their heads. Like it's just it's very hard to do. It's not impossible, but it's very hard to do. And this isn't something the cops would have tried to reenact, you know? And it's just such a horribly unpleasant thing to do. Yeah. I guess, like, maybe I'm just identifying with her way too much, but, like, I would never do that. I would. That's it's gross. It's gross. It's awful. It's scary. Her friend said she was claustrophobic too, so like, doing that, it.

42:31 Doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. But that on top of no print, right is is something is wrong on top. Of so many things. Yeah. So meanwhile in in Victoria, Australia, at this point they still use the antiquated coroner system which you used to see in the UK. And United States as well. And so when we talk about old murder cases, you hear us talking about the coroner convening a jury to determine whether or not a murder has taken place. It's like the coroner's inquest. And then criminal charges stem from there.

43:04 So the coroner initially initially rules it an open finding. That's what he rules the death as, meaning there's not enough information to determine Phoebe's manner of death. So it's an open case. It takes years of pressure from Phoebe's family to open an official and full inquest into this. You have to petition the government, and I listen to other podcasts and read the stories where it's just so hard for the family to do it in fact, they have to pay for it themselves, the family of the victim that they're trying to get an inquest for.

43:36 Part of the reason it's so hard is that Phoebe's boyfriend's parents are such prominent judges, which means that they know every lawyer in town. So no. So no lawyer can actually take the. Case. Right? Because it's a conflict of interest. They finally get a lawyer and the inquest finally happens in 2014, four years after his death. And not until her mother, Natalie, is able to raise $50,000 from donations and her own savings to cover the family's legal costs, to have them properly look into her daughter's death. Wow.

44:08 The other reason it takes as long as that Phoebe's boyfriend tries to petition against there being an inquest at all. But ultimately it goes through, and it's determined at the inquest that it is very difficult to make any kind of ruling because of the amount of evidence that was lost or not gathered. How convenient. At the time of her death. Ultimately, the coroner ruled that Phoebe died, quote, by misadventure, meaning an accident. This is against the advice of his counsel. The lawyer, who is tasked with working with the coroner to parse through the evidence.

44:36 Oh wow. She had written that she believed the case should be left open. So the coroner writes that he believes Phoebe had gotten into the shoot herself in an altered state brought on by alcohol on Ambien, despite several medical experts testifying. Well, alcohol on Ambien can make people deliriously do things they believe. It's highly unlikely Phoebe would have been able to climb into the chute on her own. So, like everyone's telling you, not to rule it that way and you just do it anyways? Inside job. Right? In 2008, so four years before Phoebe's death, a new law had made it harder for people to appeal the coroner's findings based on their own interpretations of police evidence.

45:15 And so this was part of an effort to modernize the coroner system. So if the coroner had left the case open, Phoebe's family wouldn't have had to appeal because he ruled death by misadventure. They would need to appeal in order to change that. So under the 2008 law, if the appeal didn't go in their favor, they would be responsible for all of the legal fees incurred by that appeal. So pay for justice. This is speculation. And allegedly, Phoebe's boyfriend has another girlfriend died by suicide in 2018. Which people do or don't think is suspicious depending on like the case, whether or not you know, and it's possibly had nothing to do with either woman's death.

45:58 But this is always brought up when people talk about the case. The widespread attention to Phoebe's case has led to calls for change to the coronial court system, which makes it extremely difficult for families to appeal the coroner's decision. And so in 2018, because of this case of Victoria, partly because of this case, the Victoria Attorney General announces that there will be some reform to the 2008 Coroners Act, and it's tied directly to the issues raised in the podcast that I listened to called Phoebe's Fall.

46:26 So they actually were able to enact changes just with this podcast, which I think is so incredible. Right. Families are now able to challenge coroner's decisions based on more factors than they had been originally able to do so, and there are less financial risk to do so. So we're recording the show right at the 15th anniversary of Phoebe's death, and she'd be 39 if she were alive today. And it's still one of those stories that people are just always talking about because it just doesn't make sense. And there's so much to discuss.

46:55 I mean, like, there's like layers and levels of, like, even if there was no. Boyfriend, write it. Right. But then it's like, but then you laid that on there. Yeah. All that additional information where it's like, it kind of reminds me of the staircase in that way. It totally reminds me that they. Discovered the other wife. And then, of course, at that point, yeah, me, the way I, you know, and just things were just like, well, there we go. It doesn't happen twice. No, it doesn't happen twice. But but it does, it does, it can and it does.

47:24 But it's make something that is already suspicious seem like. Well come on. Yeah. It's at least worth a second serious looking into it. Totally. You think they'd want to do that to show that they weren't being, you know. I said. Yeah, but no. And it's just really sad. I just, I think about her and how she was 24 and struggling and then so are we, and we got the chance to straighten things out. And she did it. And it's just so tragic. And I just don't it just doesn't make any sense. She deserved better than that. Yeah.

47:57 Than what she got. And that's the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe. Hans. Jack. Wow. That's that's a lot. That's that's a heavy. Yeah. That needs to get solved. There's Phoebe's fall. Definitely listen to it. It's from 2016, and they've done other stories since then. And it's just a really great investigative podcast, an interview that a lot of people, lot more details. And I was able. To put. It out there. But and it's making change, like it's actually affecting people who are wanting to look at it. Wow. Yeah.

48:26 So can you change direction now please? I would love to. And, I'm and I'm going to. Great. Although it's not, you know, it's still over in the dark place where we like to spend our time. Because today, my story is about a legendary maritime disaster. It's about a massive ship that gets caught in a horrible storm and then vanishes into thin air. Oh. But it's not on the open ocean. It takes place on one of the vast, volatile Great Lakes. 50 years ago, many loved ones, of those who are lost in this maritime disaster are still alive and still grieving.

49:05 It inspired a legendary Gordon Lightfoot song. This is the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald. Holy shit. Vince has been watching because he's from Michigan, right? So he knows all about it. Yeah, I've. Been watching like the documentaries and TV. Shows. It's crazy. I don't know anything about it, though. I didn't really either, and I didn't think I knew the song. And then I listened to the song. I was like, oh, this is just been kind of playing in the background because, like, I grew up in those the, what do they call the am gold era of the 70s where you just turn on the radio and there was like amazing music.

49:37 Music. Yeah. And Gordon Lightfoot was one of those voices, a famous Canadian kind of traditional singer. But then he had like some amazing hits, and he just very recently died. Okay, so the main source used in the story today is Christopher Rowley's excellent 1996 Discovery Channel documentary called shipwreck. The Mystery of the Edmund Fitzgerald. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, it all begins on a beautiful, sunny autumn morning on November 9th, 1975, in superior, Wisconsin, on the shores of Lake Superior.

50:11 This part of the lake is lined with enormous docks. I don't know if you've ever seen those really gigantic docks on the Great Lakes. They look like several sets of train tracks that extend half a mile out over the lake, and 80ft above the water. And then basically big freighters come up and they wait to be loaded with their cargo there. And in the mid 70s, that cargo would typically be pellets of processed iron ore, which is an important industrial mineral that gets converted into steel. So the ore arrives by rail from mines in places like Minnesota.

50:46 And then once it's loaded onto the ships several tons at a time, it gets hauled through the Great Lakes. And now to steel mills in Rust Belt cities like Cleveland and Detroit. And this is why the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald is docked today. It is named for the president of the insurance company that owns the ship, Edmund Fitz. Cherokee. You need a legacy. You gotta have a legacy. Gotta do it. But you're risking. This could be your legacy, right? So the ship has a 29 person crew that's currently tasked with freighting iron ore eastward toward Sioux Sainte Marie, Michigan, and then down to the lower Great Lakes and then ultimately landing in Detroit.

51:25 So it's a massive freighter. It's 729ft long. It's the length of two football fields. As well as a ship. Jesus. It towers nearly 40ft off the water. It the height is a basically about a four story building. Oh my God. It weighs more than 13,000 tons when it's empty. And it can carry around 26,000 tons of cargo. And it is lovingly nicknamed Big Fitz. So the Fitzgerald is so gigantic that when it was first unveiled in the late 50s, around 10,000 people showed up to the christening ceremony just to see, like, what it looked like.

52:02 But that ceremony devolved into chaos when the Fitzgerald gets launched and it basically slides sideways into the harbor and creates this huge waves that breaks onto nearby docks and drenches the thousands of spectators, and then as it kind of bobbles to right itself, it crashes into a nearby pier. And in that, documentary for the Discovery Channel, they say, quote, one man is so shaken by this sight that he suffers a heart attack and dies, and another swears that the Edmund Fitzgerald is trying to climb right out of the water.

52:37 Creepy. So just to be there and see all of that happening, the idea, the idea that a guy had a heart attack, I'm like, wait, is that my my weird is my weird, like fear of gigantic ships? Am I the reincarnated soul of that man? Must be. It's all about us at the end of the day. So this takes place 25 years. After that, and since that time, the big Fitz has proven itself to be a reliable workhorse of a freighter. Its next trip is old hat. It's a two day run. They've done it a lot of times over the 17 years on the Great Lakes.

53:10 The captain of the Edmund Fitzgerald is 63 year old Ernest McSorley, who over his 44 year career has climbed the ranks. He starts as a deckhand and gets all the way up to the captain. I mean, with a name like McSorley, what else are you going to do with your life? Come on. And you better drink whiskey and you better tell a good story. Right? And you better belly up to that bar. Right. So there are very few people who know gigantic ships like the Edmund Fitzgerald or the quirks of the Great Lakes better than captain McSorley.

53:40 And of course, like any great tragic story, he's about to retire. His wife, Nellie is recovering from a stroke, and so he has promised her that after this shipping season is over, he will finally come home for good. Come on. This hall will be the last one for captain McSorley. Son of a fucking bitch. But he thinks it's the last one for a different reason, right? And it. Well, it takes dozens of deckhands about six hours to load all the iron ore pellets into the Fitzgerald cargo holds just below deck. Then it takes another half hour to close those holes, and they have to manually seal the hatches.

54:17 And those hatches are above deck and, once the hatch cover clamps are shut and I'm going like this. But I don't know why. I know nothing about what I'm talking about. Go that way. It could go a different way. I mean, I'm picturing it like those those hermetic jars with the like. Oh, yeah, of jars with a little bit of rubber. It's probably nothing like that. But anyway, that's a very important part of it where they have to seal that and then, they'll be weather tight once, once those clamps are sealed around 2:00, the Edmund Fitzgerald is ready to set out.

54:50 It's a warm, beautiful autumn day in superior, Wisconsin. It makes it seem like everything's going to be smooth sailing. But the Great Lakes are known to throw a few curveballs weather wise, especially at this time of year, because it's autumn, so the water's still a little bit warm from the summer, but the cold fronts come in and that's how you get all the action. Okay, again, to know I don't. Really know this. I am reading, so if you grow up in this part of the United States or Canada, you know, kind of how all this works.

55:21 But if you didn't like us, the Great Lakes are very large. Collectively, they spend 95,000mi² and they hold about 20% of the entire planet's freshwater. Yeah. What are their big deal? And one of them, the one that the Edmund Fitzgerald will be crossing in this run is Lake Superior, and it's by far the largest superior contains about half of the Great Lakes total water. So of the 20% on the planet, 10% is Lake Superior. I'm not sure if that math is right. But basically that would be somewhere around 3 quadrillion gallons of water.

56:01 Fuck. So we're up up above trillion into an area I don't like to go to. I'm not there. Please. Let's not, that's enough to flood the entirety of both North and South America one foot deep in water. Holy shit. It's roughly the size of Maine Lake Superior is, and at its deepest point, you could submerge the Empire State Building, and only its antenna would be sticking out of the lake. So just what's down there? There's the fish with the light. Yeah, there's some. Freshwater version of that guy and merman. So what captain McSorley is now sailing across?

56:37 I don't think sailing is the right word. Traversing has the ability to generate and amplify its own weather systems. Just like the ocean. Whoa. In autumn, I just explained to you this part. Cold fronts move in, and it clashes with the warmer lake water. Still not warm water, but warmer than the cold fronts. And that causes these violent storms that are called the witches of November. So captain McSorley isn't fooled by the beautiful afternoon weather he knows conditions on the lakes turn quickly. He's been doing it for 40 years.

57:13 He's also been following the weather reports, but it is the mid 70s, so they're slower and of course, more rudimentary than we're used to when they leave. I was going to say port, but I don't know if that's right. Still, when they start this journey, there's no weather warnings in effect. But what captain McSorley doesn't know is there is a powerful weather system moving out of the great Plains and doing what's called a Panhandle hook. You know this one. It's a storm that originates in the Texas and Oklahoma panhandles.

57:43 It moves east before making a hook shaped motion northeast and straight toward the Great Lakes. And this type of weather pattern is rare, and it comes as a surprise even to the forecasters. So several hours after the Edmund Fitzgerald leaves superior, Wisconsin, the lake suddenly becomes rough. Oh that's. Scares me so much because it's like you can plan all you want. Like that recent. Tahoe storm came out of nowhere. Yes, and just killed people that were out, like on kayaks because. It was a beautiful day and. No one expected that.

58:15 No. And said, no way. Hailing. I saw a video of people on the shore where it was just like huge balls of hail. It's just not fair weather. It's a little crazy. Okay, so 9:00 that night, it's seven hours into the Fitzgerald's trip and the National Weather Service issues a gale warning for Lake Superior, meaning that they're going to. They're anticipating sustained winds between 39 and 55 miles an hour. And just for perspective, a category one hurricane falls between 75 and 95 miles an hour. So it's approaching. A. Hurricane levels not there yet.

58:51 It's not an ideal situation. But captain McSorley, he's seen it all. And also he's not alone out there. There's another big iron ore freighter called the SS Arthur. Anderson. These fucking men in their. Boat name a boat after me. Name a boat after me. I demand it so that ship is also completing the same trip across Lake Superior. And that ship is helmed by Captain Bernie Cooper, a 30 year veteran of the field. And they're only about ten miles behind the Fitzgerald. So those two captains see each other on each other's ship's radar, and they really they radio, to each other.

59:28 They check in. Captain Cooper is charting the weather himself and based on the latest forecasts. So he warns captain McSorley, the situation is going to get much, much worse. And captain McSorley heeds that warning. He wants to ensure everything on the Fitzgerald is weather tight and secured. And so the ship won't take on any water as the weather deteriorates, so that crew is dispatched to double check all the clamped hatch covers. Around midnight, the National Weather Service upgrades its existing gale warning to a storm warning.

1:00:02 Now it's predicting the northeast east winds of up to 57mph or more. It's getting close, but even before that issue is posted, Fitzgerald is already clocking winds out of the north northeast at 60 miles an hour and waves that are ten feet tall. Ooh, that's in a lake. In a lake. Lakes. How do they weren't lakes? And suddenly it's just like a bank is sitting next to you on your boat. So of course there's rainfall, so there's very low visibility, but the Fitzgerald and the Anderson can see each other on their radars.

1:00:39 They remain in radio contact. So they're not that worried about that part. The buddy system? Yes, exactly. These big boats have friends. Not long after the upgraded warning is posted, the captains decide they're going to reroute north and chart a new path that runs along the Canadian shoreline. So even though it makes the trips longer, it'll be closer to land. We'll give them cover from these northeasterly winds. And of course, it's not an ideal situation, but because these captains have 80 years of experience between them, they feel like they have it under control.

1:01:10 But by 5 a.m. the next morning, on November 10th, the situation becomes more volatile. The skies above the two ships on Lake Superior darken, the clouds swell and the captains find themselves in the thick of a brutal storm. The freighters are hit with wind gusts at nearly 100 miles an hour, so we've gone double her to 100. Yeah. That's actually what you'd see in a category two hurricane. Huge waves dump water onto the decks as these ships rise and fall on the superior like little bath toys. They have no other option than to keep moving.

1:01:45 So around noon that day, the two captains decide it's time to turn back south toward Sioux Sainte Marie. But this is a little tricky because it requires passing an area called the Six Fathoms Shoal, which is a shallow mile long underwater reef. But it's not a coral reef. It's made up of huge, jagged rocks. So, And those are rocks that could absolutely, of course, rip up the belly of a ship like this. Normally, captains have to avoid the shoal in this storm. They can't maintain that control. To avoid the shoal, large waves are knocking the freighters around while making it hard to get a visual on the shoals themselves.

1:02:26 So they can't see. And they're they know they're going toward them. And then it starts to snow, and it snows really hard. And before long, they're in whiteout conditions on the lake, and they can only track each other by radar. Then around 3 p.m., which is a full 24 hours into this trip, Captain Cooper looks at his radar and he sees that the Fitzgerald is dangerously close to Six Fathoms Shoal. So around 310, he radios captain McSorley. But McSorley brings up an entirely different problem, which is, he says, the seas are so high they're interfering with the Fitzgerald's radar system.

1:03:03 And so he's now blindly navigating on Lake Superior in whiteout conditions with waves the size of three storey buildings. They've gone. No, no. To three. No thank you. McSorley tells Cooper. The Fitzgerald is taking, quote, heavy seas over the deck and listening to one side, which means the ship is taking on water. But McSorley doesn't know if that's because the waves are just purely because of the waves, or because of their structural damage. Below deck, he tells Cooper his crew is working to pump out all the water to right the ship.

1:03:36 So then the captains come up with a plan. McSorley is going to slow the Fitzgerald and give Cooper a chance to catch up to him. Because they were about ten miles apart and then McSorley is going to follow the Anderson to the nearest safe harbor because they have radar. And that will be several miles away in Whitefish Bay, which is on the eastern end of Lake Superior between Ontario and Michigan. But by 4 p.m., hurricane force winds are still blowing. More snow is dumping down. And in these violent waves, Captain Cooper struggles to keep a visual on the Fitzgerald.

1:04:13 So the Fitzgerald couldn't see them, and now he can barely see the Fitzgerald. The navigation issues that McSorley mentioned also mean that Anderson can only intermittently see the ship on his radar, and it keeps basically dropping on and off the map. So now it's 5 p.m. Anderson still trying to catch up to the Edmund Fitzgerald. And of course, Captain McSorley is on edge. He's radioing to any and all reachable ships to check his position. Since his radar's down, he actually connects with a Swedish vessel in Whitefish Bay.

1:04:46 He tells that ship's crew that waves are still washing over his cargo deck, and that in his 40 years, he's never seen a storm this powerful. At 6:40 p.m., Captain Cooper reports a succession of two 35ft rogue waves that knock into the Anderson. The discovery documentary describes these waves as, quote, as powerful as those found in a mid ocean cyclone. So it just goes, you seen that video of the fucking wave. In the ocean when that tanker. Oh my God, it's the scariest fucking thing. Is it? When they used to do the North Sea things they're like oh yeah, whatever.

1:05:24 Yeah. How do they do that? I don't know. And then they kind of just get used to it. It's like, that's what regular life is like. No, please don't make us do that. Stop making us become sailors and just start running. At 7:10 p.m., captain McSorley radios over to the Anderson again, and this time he talks to first mate Morgan Clarke, who can see the Fitzgerald on the radar. He gives McSorley his position, and when Clarke asks the captain how he's faring, McSorley simply replies, quote, we are holding our own. Those are his last words.

1:05:58 Minutes later, at 715, the Edmund Fitzgerald drops off the radar and it never reappears. By 730, the storm is still raging on Lake Superior, but the snowfall lightens up a little bit, so visibility improves. Based on the Fitzgerald's last position, Captain Cooper thinks he could be getting closer to them, but when he looks out to catch a glimpse of them, he can't see anything. Like he can't see them at all. Yeah. And at the same time, the Anderson's first mate, Morgan Clarke, is trying to reach captain McSorley again by radio, but there's no answer.

1:06:31 So a rattled Captain Cooper calls the coast Guard. The U.S. Coast Guard tells him he's worried that something terrible has happened. So the Coast Guard launches an immediate search for the Edmund Fitzgerald. But there's a problem. All their big rescue ships are too far away, and the smaller boats can't go through that storm. They can't weather it. The Coast Guard starts with an air search, but they don't see any sign of the Fitzgerald at all from the air. A ship that's the size of two football fields seems to have vanished.

1:07:01 The immediate presumption, of course, would be that the Fitzgerald sank. Because basically, what else could it be? But the idea that it could go under that quickly without Captain Cooper or one of the Coast Guard planes seeing it at all is pretty unbelievable. And just for a very rough comparison, the Titanic, which is much, much larger, but still, it's you know, comparable. Yeah. It took 2.5 hours to sink. Right. So the idea that suddenly it's just gone crazy with a few other options available, the Coast Guard asks the captains of eight large ships sheltering in Whitefish Bay to join this search.

1:07:38 Basically, they're asking all these captains who have just come in from a storm to go back out. Yeah, so nearly all of them decline, but two do agree. One is captain Don Erickson of the William Clay Ford, which is another big or freighter, and the other is none other than Captain Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Andersen. So those two ships spend all night searching for the Edmund Fitzgerald. They find nothing. Well, that is until 11 a am the next morning when they see a battered lifeboat, which Captain Cooper says, quote, looked like a giant hand had just taken and torn it.

1:08:11 And two searchers also spot an oil slick with some more debris floating. But there's nobody in. The lifeboats, just the. Boat torn in half. Shell. Yeah. They see an oil slick and more debris like an inflatable raft and some lifejackets. But by this point, any hope for survivors is gone. The lake water is less than 50 degrees, which is only survivable for a short window of time, even when the water's calm. But this water is not calm. Which makes it even more lethal. A Coast Guardsman named James Harbor will say, quote, we searched for three days in probably the roughest seas I've been in in my life, including the North Atlantic and hurricanes in the Gulf.

1:08:51 Yikes. On November 14th, four days after the Edmund Fitzgerald disappears, a U.S. Navy plane using magnetic detecting gear hits on a large object at the bottom of Lake Superior, right around where the Fitzgerald was last seen on radar and using the military's equipment, searchers are soon able to determine that this is in fact the Edmund Fitzgerald split in two on the bottom of the lake, 17 miles away from Whitefish Bay, where they were trying to get to. That means captain McSorley almost got his crew to safety. 17 miles is not a lot.

1:09:25 It's so close when it's two football fields. Yeah but. Even after the ship's located, no one can agree on what actually caused it to go down. Two federal investigations are conducted in the late 70s. Both concede. We'll never know exactly what happened. But they both suggest the likeliest culprit were those hatch covers on the cargo. Hold, some of those. Bell jar things that were. Talking. The bell jars. The little info like that. A report suggests that they might not have been clamped tightly, tightly enough. And in this storm, huge waves pouring onto the deck.

1:09:59 There's so much lake water that spilled into the cargo holds. And basically the ship became so waterlogged that it went down. It made it go down fast. Yeah, but that's a very controversial theory. For a couple reasons. One, it puts a blame on the crew on the Fitzgerald's crew. Many people objected to that because these people knew what they were doing. They did it all the time. But many Great Lakes captains and engineers reject that theory, because even if the covers weren't perfectly sealed, we know that they were as close to that as possible because the captain called for them to be rechecked.

1:10:31 It's hard to imagine enough water would have been able to down a 729ft or freighter in seconds. It just doesn't make sense. You've got to imagine that it's able to take on some amount of water without fucking falling apart, you know? So that brings us to the second theory, which is people thinking that the Edmund Fitzgerald actually was physically damaged either by a stretch, a stress fracture incurred while it was just being slammed around in the water, or because it scraped six fathoms shore. And that's what Captain Cooper things happened.

1:11:03 He theorizes that the fatal blow actually happened hours before the sinking, when Captain McSorley first reported the Fitzgerald was listing. Captain Cooper has said, quote, I don't care what anybody says at 310 in the afternoon, she meaning the Fitzgerald had either bottomed out or had a stress fracture in the hull. That's the only two possibilities she was sinking from that time on. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes much more sense. Cooper also points out it's totally possible captain McSorley didn't even feel the fatal blow or scrape because the lake was so turbulent that it was like one of many things going on.

1:11:40 Right? But that still doesn't explain why captain McSorley, who was using his radio, didn't call anyone as the ship was actually sinking. Right. It adds to the suspicion that it went down within seconds. Yeah. So whether you ascribe to the theory about the hatches or the damage, many people also think that there was a final catastrophic rogue wave that took the already compromised ship and buried her before any of its crew could escape or call for help. Yeah, you'd think if it sunk. Like at least some people would.

1:12:12 Have gotten off of it. Gotten away somehow or. Yeah. And also the fact that it's just cracked into. So we'll never truly know what happened. And that, of course, has been a source of pain for the crew's loved ones over the years, many of whom first learned about the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald by watching the nightly news. Man. Horrible. So very soon after that wreck, Canadian traditional singer Gordon Lightfoot, his beloved. Anyway, some great hits. If you, I think sundown might be one of my favorite songs of all time.

1:12:46 And he has that really good low voice. Yeah. And the beard. And he was like, he was, you know. Yeah, he's. A hot guy. Drinks Miller. Miller. Genuine draft or. Something. Yeah. He was like the vibe of the mid to late 70s. Yeah. So he reads about the admits it's Gerald sinking in Newsweek. Weeks after the tragedy. And he is really upset that it wasn't more widely reported and more people don't know about that tragedy. So he goes into the studio and he records what would end up being his legendary ballad, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which he will later say is his proudest achievement. Wow.

1:13:26 What I think is really interesting, and I did see this on TikTok, so grain of salt. But somebody said that what you hear, it was a guy that knew so much. He was like one of those music guys and sorry, I didn't write down his name that you knew he wrote. He probably read like four books on the wreck and on Gordon Lightfoot and on Canada and the 70s, his little pork pie hat. And he said that basically Gordon Lightfoot got like an Irish traditional ballad, like, those are the chords he was using, and he just wrote the actual words, and they went into the studio to record it, and he just told everybody, just like, play what you feel, because it's a really simple tune.

1:14:08 And they got the first take, and then when they tried to go do it again, like the real version. Yeah, it just didn't feel right. So what you hear when you hear it is their very first take of the song. That's wild, very cool. And like, people are asking questions. He's like, I don't know, just do what you think sounds good. And like that's what it ended up being, which then ended up being number one on the Canadian charts. And it went to number two on the American charts. So it was a huge hit. Yeah. Again. Now let's go to sundown. Okay.

1:14:37 You shouldn't be arguing that. In this story. Truly. It's like all of Canada knocks on our door. So to this day, the bodies of the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald remain buried in Lake Superior, 530ft under water and over the years, the crew's friends and families have come to see the wreck site as a burial place that should be respected. As such. They've made it clear they don't want dives to the wreckage, they don't want anybody bothering it. They want everything to remain on board as it was, and just for it to be like that sacred place.

1:15:12 But for most families, there's been one exception to that rule. In the mid 90s, they agreed that the Edmund Fitzgerald's Bell, which is the heart of any ship, should be excavated and brought up and used as a monument. It's a huge endeavor involving careful planning and a team of expert divers, but ultimately it's a success. And in 1995, the bell is removed and replaced with a replica that lists the names of captain McSorley and his 28 crewmen. Wow. And the same year, during a dedication ceremony for the bell, each man's name is read aloud one by one, and as they are, their respective family members, ring the bell to honor their lost loved one.

1:15:55 Well. Don Dinar, Ski Junior of the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society, is among the speakers at this event. And he says in his speech that quote, as we remember the men and hear the tolling of the bell, we should grieve, but we should also celebrate their lives as well, as the bell is in their hearts, so they are in the bell, and in the bell's tone are the voices of the men. And we shall listen well. So Captain Bernie Cooper has already he passed in 1993, when he was in his mid 70s, before that ceremony took place.

1:16:28 But his heroism is reflected in the U.S. Coast Guard distinguished public service Award that he's given for his participation in the search effort. And today, Big Fitz Bell is on display at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society Museum, which is fittingly located in Whitefish Point in Michigan, which is the entry point for Whitefish Bay. Just a few weeks ago, in November of 2025, events commemorating the 50th anniversary of the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald took place there, and as many as 3000 people showed up to pay tribute. Wow.

1:17:01 So those in attendance would have heard the ship's bell ringing 31 times since that very first ceremony back in the 90s. Two additional bell rings have been added. It rings 29 times for the Edmund Fitzgerald's last crew. It rings a 30th time for all sailors lost on the Great Lakes. And since 2023, there's an additional ring commemorating Gordon Lightfoot himself, who passed away that year. No way. Yeah. And what's interesting is that, Gordon Lightfoot actually wrote the song and then, talked to, surviving loved ones and tweaked the original lyrics.

1:17:40 If there was anything that, like, he got wrong or that that he changed, basically, this song is undeniably preserved the history and kept the story of this horrible disaster alive. And the week of November 13th, 2025, when it was the anniversary the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald topped the U.S Billboard's Rock Digital Song sales for the very first time because 4 million Americans streamed it that week. Yeah. And that's the story of the sinking of the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald. Wow. When's it going to be so pleased that I now know what the fuck happened?

1:18:17 What all that's about? Yeah. I mean, it's such a it's so funny because it's like there's so many people that really love that song and it's like it, it's important to them. But also, if you want to absolutely destroy a karaoke night, you sign up for that song. In a good way or destroy it. Like the. Worst way, where it's like, it's a bummer. And there's probably 95 verses like, you're just like. And it's the same. It's the same thing the whole time. Okay, that's good to know, because destroy. Can mean anything. If you're out to ruin someone's karaoke birthday party.

1:18:51 There you go. That's my recommendation. Write in if you disagree with me. And you're super upset right now. Speaking of being super upset, this has been. My favorite murder. That's right. We hope we've helped you process some big feelings today. You you've helped us so much. Yeah. And is it 2026? Not yet. We're going. To make it to the end. Real soon. So? So soon. Sam. Until we do, stay. Sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. To.

Questions about this episode

What is "The Mysterious Death of Phoebe Handsjuk + the Sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald | MFM 509" about?

The content discusses the challenges of returning from a Thanksgiving break, drawing an analogy to soldiers in Vietnam and highlighting the contrast between the excitement of a touring experience and the mundane reality of everyday life. Additionally, it touches on personal experiences of travel during the holiday season, reflecting on the frustrations of traffic and longing for appreciation.

What is mentioned in this My Favorite Murder episode?

269 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Edmund Fitzgerald, Edmund Fitzgerald, Phoebe Hanschke, Phoebe Handsjuk, SS Edmund Fitzgerald, Great Lakes. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Mysterious Death of Phoebe Handsjuk + the Sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald | MFM 509"?

The episode runs 1 h 20 min; the transcript is about 14,922 words in 143 timestamped sections.

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