Transcript

Discover Your Calling (Before It’s Too Late) | Suzy Welch’s 3-Step Method

From Ryan Hawk · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 59 min · 12,890 words · 149 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Discover Your Calling (Before It’s Too Late) | Suzy Welch’s 3-Step Method", an episode of Ryan Hawk published November 8, 2025 (59 min, about 12,890 words). It mentions 38 people, works and ideas, including Becoming You, NYU, achievement, scope, Values Bridge.

What this episode is about

The main topic addresses the difference between pursuing passion and achievement in career choices, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's values and cognitive aptitudes to find true fulfillment. Suzy Welch introduces a three-step method to help individuals define their calling, encouraging them to take proactive steps in authoring their own life stories rather than conforming to societal expectations.

Key takeaways

  • Chasing dreams? Add skillset first—celeb status requires more than passion, unless karaoke is your goal.
  • Virtues weave moral tapestries; values spark actions. Knowing the difference turns chaos into clarity.
  • Finding purpose isn't woo-woo—it's drumming excellence, economic savvy, and knowing when to rock or roll.
  • Pursue passions with caution—be realistic. Dreams without talent? Weekend hobbies, not careers.
  • Live your 'Sound of Silence' moment—find transcendence with purpose, not just in life, but life's work.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Disturbed, achievement, cognitive aptitudes
  2. – 10:00: Becoming You, Susie Welch, Today (The Today Show)
  3. – 15:00: Becoming You, Bianca Jagger, Jakarta, Welsh Bristol values inventory
  4. – 20:00: radius, belovedness, authenticity gap, Becoming You
  5. – 25:00: family centrism, virtues, achievement, Becoming You
  6. – 30:00: achievement, family centrism, Atomic Habits, belovedness
  7. – 35:00: cognitive aptitudes, Goldman Sachs, Pi 360, work centrism
  8. – 40:00: Joe Lado, Pi 360
  9. – 50:00: Values Bridge, Values Bridge, family centrism, Opportunity Bingo
  10. – 55:00: Barbados, work centrism
  11. – 58:50: Values Bridge, Values Bridge, Becoming You, Harvard Business School Publishing

Notable quotes from "Discover Your Calling (Before It’s Too Late) | Suzy Welch’s 3-Step Method"

  • These days look at the deal that's being offered to them and they think why would I chase achievement when achievement just brings you anxiety.
    about achievement · at
  • Here. To start, I want to know what can we learn from the drummer of the band Disturbed when he was playing a cover of Simon and Garfuncle's song The Sound of Silence.
    about Disturbed · at
  • This happen. Can you tell me that story? like how did this becoming you become a, thing, at, such, a, prestigious university?
    about Becoming You · at
  • It out. So there's 16 of this. I mean there's this there's the value of radius. That's how much you want to change the world systemically. Okay. And some people want to blow it…
    about radius · at
  • Find out in 22 minutes what your values were because we have a test for that called the values bridge which 70,000 people have now taken and I created it because we wanted to…
    about Values Bridge · at
  • Know I know my values backwards and forward my number one value happens to be cosmos because I'm a very faithful person. Cosmos is the value that reflects how much religion or…
    about cosmos · at
  • Other way to undo this world of acrimony. And that's so that's my second value. My third value is work centrism which is I love work for work's sake. We do not allow the word…
    about work centrism · at
  • Choices about how much excitement you want in your life, how much how family centrism is a value. Like how central is your family as an organizing principle?
    about family centrism · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Joe Lado — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Going on in each community in Miami. And I a fabulous young lieutenant named Joe Lado took me under his wing and he said, I kind of like you, Susie because most of the crime…
  • Susie Welch — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Careers reporter. I had a show I had two shows on CNBC. One was called Get to Work with Susie Welch and the other was called Susie Welch Fix My Life. And I had been building…
  • Bianca Jagger — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Scope. sculpts the value that reflects how exciting a life you want. Do you want to be like Bianca Jagger on the back of a white stallion riding into Studio 54, a life of…
  • Hollis Heinbeck — Person · 1 mention · first at
    You want to tell your Hollis story. this, is, this, is, one, of, the, great, is Hollis Heinbeck. She was we were young editors together at the Harvard Business School…
  • Tasha Eurich — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

Companies & orgs

  • NYU — Company · 7 mentions
  • Disturbed — Company · 4 mentions · first at
  • Today (The Today Show) — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Walking in the woods. I didn't know what I was trying to do. I was trying to work through. And around that time, the Today Show asked me to come back. I had been on the Today…
  • Ohio University — Company · 1 mention · first at
    I know you have some of the data to back that up but I feel like I just met with a I just did an event at Ohio University this week with a great an amazing friend and author…
  • Goldman Sachs — Company · 1 mention · first at
    To buy into the values that the hiring managers are looking for. they are. Goldman Sachs goes and finds those companies. JP Morgan finds those those individuals but, it's, not, it's, not, as, widespread as, you might think.
  • Harvard Business School Publishing — Company · 1 mention · first at
    This, is, this, is, one, of, the, great, is Hollis Heinbeck. She was we were young editors together at the Harvard Business School publishing company. I think I met her in…
  • JPMorgan — Company · 1 mention
  • Simon and Garfunkel — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

  • Values Bridge — Product · 5 mentions · first at
    Find out in 22 minutes what your values were because we have a test for that called the values bridge which 70,000 people have now taken and I created it because we wanted to…
  • Pi 360 — Product · 2 mentions · first at
    And they all go through 360 feedback. we do it with a tool called Pi 360. which is a very fast, it takes five minutes. You give it to 30 20 to 40 people and they anonymously gets aggregated and people tell you how the.
  • ENOG — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

  • achievement — Concept · 6 mentions · first at
  • scope — Concept · 6 mentions
  • Values Bridge — Concept · 5 mentions · first at
  • work centrism — Concept · 5 mentions · first at
  • family centrism — Concept · 5 mentions · first at
  • cognitive aptitudes — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
    How, does, this, work?, So, we, do, a, lot, of testing as part of the methodology to figure out what your cognitive aptitudes are so you can build a career that leans into what…
  • virtues — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
    World, live, work, play, and relate that we can decide how much or how little we want in our life. They're not virtues.
  • eudaimonia — Concept · 4 mentions
  • radius — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
  • belovedness — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
    Mention one other which is kind of an interesting value. It's the value of belovedness. And this is how important an intimate relationship is to you, a romantic intimate…
  • cosmos — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
  • voice (as a value) — Concept · 2 mentions
  • Welsh Bristol values inventory — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Values inventories. One thinks there's 13 values, one thinks there are 19. I know there are 16 values. It's the Welsh Bristol values inventory. And values are all exist on a…
  • authenticity gap — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Who's got say learning disabilities and you can't live your scope. And so we call that number your authenticity gap.
  • place (as a value) — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Just live and breathe New York. but for other people, they could live anywhere. In that case, place as a value would be quite low for them.
  • Opportunity Bingo — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    One is we play a game called opportunity bingo where we literally force people to learn about the 135 industries and we and different types of jobs that exist and then we I actually teach the.
  • Artificial Intelligence — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

  • Jakarta — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Take it around the world. This is really cool when you get a an wake up to an email from somebody in Jakarta saying,I just did it with my whole I just did the methodology with…
  • Barbados — Place · 1 mention · first at
    We're, laying, on, the, beach, in, Barbados and we were really both, of, you, both, of, you, felt, that, way.

Full transcript with timestamps

My head explodes when people tell me they want to pursue their passion. Kids these days look at the deal um that's being offered to them and they think why would I chase achievement when achievement just brings you anxiety.

Can, you, define, the, difference, between, a virtue and a value? So we could try to help people take action immediately following this podcast.

Values, are, the, deeply, held, beliefs, and motivations that galvanize your actions and decisions.

How, does, this, work?, So, we, do, a, lot, of testing as part of the methodology to figure out what your cognitive aptitudes are so you can build a career that leans into what you're already good at. A lot of people get onto a conveyor belt of what they're going to do with their career. How much you know about how big and wide and deep the world is, the more you give yourself opportunity, but I've never met a leader who was doing it for the money. No matter what story we're telling ourselves, we always tell it with ourselves as the hero. It's better to be the author of your life than the editor.

But, you, got, to, put, the, pen, in, your, hand and write that story. Susie,, it, is, awesome, to, have, you, here, on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome.

Thank, you, so, much., I'm, delighted, to, be here. To start, I want to know what can we learn from the drummer of the band Disturbed when he was playing a cover of Simon and Garfuncle's song The Sound of Silence.

Yeah., You, know,, no, one, ever, expects, that in a business school class. You know when I throw that video up of Disturbed they're like, first of all, isn't Professor Welch old? What is she doing uh listening to a heavy metal band? Anyway, I um what's happening in that clip and the reason why I show it that's a a great video um they're doing a cover. Disturbed um is doing a cover of uh Sound of Silence. And there's a moment where you can see the drummer almost levitate. He is so into the music. He's so into the moment. He's so into the crowd cheering and the almost sort of sacredness of this experience that it appears his feet lift up off the ground. And what I use that video for is to say, "Look, this life is available to you. This is this is what it looks like to be in your area of transcendence, as I call it. This is what it looks to be living your purpose. That guy's living his purpose. He is doing what he was

born to do. Um, and that feels exquisitly alive. And my whole life's work, my purpose is to help people find that purpose for themselves. I'm kind of like a purpose doula. My job is to get you to be the drummer in Disturbed, so to speak. Um, someday, my dream is to someday have the drummer in Disturbed come speak to my students, but I've written them and as as of yet have no response.

Well,, I, don't, think, they're, going, to answer. I, love, this,, Susie,, and, I, think, it's great. With that said, I want to be I love I'm an optimist. I love being around optimist. I I would love being around like just your vibe and your energy. It's been awesome from before we recorded until through now already. But one of the things is everybody wants to be a drummer. Everybody wants to be a rock star. Everybody wants to be like

those, types, of, gigs., But, that's, not, But that's not real. That's not reality for everybody though. So like let's if we got more Go ahead. Go ahead.

That, guy's, GOOD, AT, DRUMMING., I, MEAN EVERYBODY right everybody wants to be the drummer and Disturb. Like I don't you know like I want to be Selene Dion and my voice is so bad that when I'm singing to church people ask me to stop and that's the nicest place you could be singing and people literally say Susie we can hear you if you could please pipe down and so like my whole methodology is about realism and you got to know what your values are and you got to know what your interests are but you better be good at it or forget it otherwise it's a hobby and so that guy is not a hobbyist as a drummer because he's great at it and so you're right um I'm not telling people to go be drummers at all. I have four children, you know, so I'm not telling them to go be drummers. I'm telling them excavate three data sets.

Your values, your aptitudes, and your economically viable interests. And those two words, economically viable, are very important. That guy can be the drummer disturbed because he can get paid for it.

So,, I'm, your, ultimate, uh, realist, here. I'm not woo woo. And I don't My head explodes when people tell me they want to pursue their passion. I mean, I have to hold it together and say, "Yeah, are you good at it?" because otherwise that's for the weekends.

I, got, you., Okay., So,, c, can, I, pose, a question that you posed to others and I want this to be about you specifically. We're going to get into the work those three things you just talked about. We're going to go deep on those things in a second, but I want to start with you Susie because I'm I'm fascinated by your story and there's some parts about it that I just want to pull the pull the thread on a little bit. Okay. So there's there's this quote from a great poet in your book um named Mary Oliver and she says quote, "Tell me what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life." Susie, how about you? What is it that you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?

Well,, I'm, lucky, because, I'm, doing, it, Ryan. I, am, doing, it, at, last., That's, why, I, am such an apostle for it because I am levitating. So what I plan to do with my one wild and precious life is to help people discover their purpose because I think uh when you find your purpose you um have a new level of peace and I think we're at a stage in the evolution of humanity where each and every one of us needs to be waging peace because so many other people are waging war. So as individuals if we can wage peace by being at peace with ourselves and what we're doing in our lives we can take that anst out of not am I doing the wrong thing? This is this is a B+ life.

this is not the a life I want. Um if we can do that then I think um this is this is the way I want to contribute. Um you know that's what I want to do right now with my life. That's what I can do. Um and that's what I I'm I've been told I'm okay at doing. So I'm I hope I'm on the right track.

Well,, I, loved, reading, about, how, this became a class at NYU and how you made this happen. Can you can you tell tell me that story? like how did this becoming you become

a, thing, at, such, a, prestigious university? Well,, no, one, was, more, surprised, than, me. Let me preface it that way. Uh I was coming out of a really uh terrible period in my life. I'd had a successful career. I was a best-selling author at both the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. I'd been a broadcast journalist of some note and I guess and I'd had a really successful, you know, life. I'd written for Oprah and all sorts of other things. Um and then life happens. you know, there's just nothing we can do about that. And um my husband got very very sick and and I stopped everything to take care of him. Uh the eupheism is you know, you run out of options. The doctors say we have we are out of options. That happened to us. And I stopped everything. I went to NBC and I said I need a sabatical. They said we'll see you on the other side. And I went home to take care of him. And uh he died

March 1st, 2020. And my plan was to grieve. I you know even when you know it's coming you you nothing prepares you and I was running a small company at the time a music startup with my son and grandson were running it together and um co hit and uh it was kind of a double whammy um I lost Jack then the world fell up you know kind of collapsed upon itself and I went up into the woods with my kids and their spouses and all of our dogs and I thought well I'm never leaving these woods uh life sucks. uh I don't know who I am without him. Um I can't imagine another life. And I just and the world was kind of feeling very fragile at that time. And it was dark.

And then uh I I was kind of walking around the woods with my dogs all the time and kind of figuring out who I was. And I didn't I was per Look, grief is crazy. Grief is um has no linear aspects to it. It's you just sort of bump along with it. And then the world started to come back and my kids left the woods. And then I was in the woods alone with my dogs to the point where the dogs were like, "Please don't make us walk anymore." I mean, I was like wearing everybody out with the walking in the woods. I I didn't know what I was trying to do. I was trying to work through. And around that time, the Today Show asked me to come back. I had been on the Today Show for many years at that point. And I went back and I loved being in the studio and I loved being on air. And I had this gigantic Eureka which was Oh my god. Actually, the cure is not walking in the woods. The cure is working. And I need to get my stuff

together, and I need to get back to work because this walking in the woods is making me sadder and sadder. But I didn't think I wanted to go back to TV full-time. I had this burning desire to create something. And I knew what I wanted to create, which was a class about how to figure out what to do with your life. Um, because I had been building this methodology for years and years as a a business journalist, as a careers reporter. I had a show I had two shows on CNBC. One was called Get to Work with Susie Welch and the other was called uh Susie Welch Fix My Life. And I had been building this methodology and I described one night my kids did come to see me and I described this methodology to my kids and I said, "What do you think about me taking this to NYU to suggest it would be maybe a class in the business school?" Because when I was in business school, I would have loved a class that helped me figure out what to

do with my life. And my kids were like "Go do it, mom." And I said, "I don't know what to call it." And my oldest son, who was 32 at the time, said to me "I think you should call it Becoming You." So, I put together some stuff Becoming You. Here's this methodology. And I went to the dean's office at NYU. And I I knew from my previous life because you're a business journalist career journalist. You meet the dean of NYU. I went to go see him and I suggested, he said "Well, you know, we have nothing like this." And I said "I know. That's why I'm here." And he said "Well, have you ever taught anything before?" And I said, "No. Um, but I'm a writer and I've been on TV a lot." and he said, "Well, let's try a small experiment."

And that is how it began as a very, you know, we they put it in the course catalog. I think they just braced themselves. They thought maybe they'd let 20 students take it. And he called me back about two weeks later. It was sort of if you build it, they will come. He called me back two weeks later. He said, "How do you feel about um teaching this to 40 students?" And then it was 80 students and then there was a wait list for 800 students. And so we had to adjust and I was like, look, just to fast forward, the class met students where they were. It ended up uh my hunch was right. People needed it. Um I was able to teach apparently. Uh I remember many days walking into that classroom thinking to myself, what made me think I could do this? But I said to the students, please give me some grace. I'm learning this along with you. Thank you for being my beta testers. They were awesome. And uh you know uh within a

semester the dean called and he said we have some ideas about this class and its importance here because we are seeing a response that we have not seen before. It was very um humbling and he as they asked me to join the faculty full-time. I uh I uh gratefully accepted literally sobbing from joy and relief. I thought this was the thing that was waiting for me and I so I now teach becoming you in mega sections but I would say that um I also teach a class in management because when you're a full professor they don't let you just get off teaching your favorite class you teach other good things and hard things. So, pretty soon though, and I'm going to stop talking because I've been going on for a while here, but pretty soon um it became clear that there was a need and a desire for becoming you outside of NYU. And NY I went to NYU and I said, "I'd kind of like to democratize this." And to their

great credit, they said, "You should democratize it. It shouldn't just be within the walls here. Our students get you. Um that's great, but let's let's make it possible for people around the world to take it." And we opened up the campus to people to take it from around the world and open enrollment. And then the book came along and there and we were off to the races.

How, cool, is, that, from, walking, in, the woods? Yes. Feeling, I, haven't, experienced, that, which you have like feeling that feeling of loss and pain and anguish to where you sit today.

Uh, I, I, can't, believe, it., I, mean, I, I can't believe it. It's incredible. I wish everyone could feel this feeling of of finding what you're supposed to be doing. I mean, that's why I mean, to get very meta, that's why I want other people to feel this. I mean, I found the work that I was meant to do. Um, and the reason I know I was meant to do it is because people keep on telling me to do more of it. And we've been able now to really scale the methodology with all these digital tools so that people could take it around the world. This is really cool when you get a an wake up to an email from somebody in Jakarta saying,"I just did it with my whole I just did the methodology with my whole family. We want to thank you." And you're like "How does it feel?" It feels surreal. It feels fantastic.

That's, pretty, cool., Okay,, let's, get, into it. Okay, there's, three, parts., Values, excavation. That's part one. Then part two identification of your aptitudes. That's

right., Yeah., opened, the, aperture, of, your economically viable interest. Okay who's going to pay you? Right. Okay. So let's get into it. Let's start with part one. H and and you know to go much deeper, you got to read the book and and and actually do it. But let's let's just give like a high level Susie and get into it so we could try to help people take action immediately following this podcast. I think that would be really really cool. So, part one, values ex excavation. What does that look like? What does that feel like? What do you actually do?

Okay,, Ryan,, what, are, your, values? thoughtful thankful curious and consistent.

Okay?, I, love, you, so, much,, but, those, are not values. Okay? Those are ways you want to act because that's not what a value is. Okay? Values are choices about how we want to, uh, live, uh, work relate to people. I always say it's a value if it would drive, um, uh, who you married, what job you took, and where you went on vacation. Values. I want to get kind of nerdy and academic on you on a second. I mean, I

can, you, share, your, values?, Yes,, I, will happily share my values, but for I'm happy to, but let me tell you what values are first and open it up for

Sorry., Yeah, because, it's, perfectly, legit, to, want, to be those things. Those are personality traits, okay? Values are. So, look, the thing that kids should learn in school are what are values and what are yours? And instead, they learn the volume of a cylinder. They learn to play the recorder., Okay,, tragic., All right. Values are the deeply held beliefs and motivations that galvanize your actions and decisions. And I believe that there are 16 values. Now, in my academic sphere, there are two different other um values inventories. One thinks there's 13 values, one thinks there are 19. I know there are 16 values. It's the Welsh Bristol values inventory. And values are uh all exist on a continuum. You they're like a DNA profile. You can have a lot or a little of them. Let me just explain one. Here's a value. It's a value of scope. sculpts the value that reflects how exciting a life you want. Do you

want to be like Bianca Jagger on the back of a white stallion riding into Studio 54, a life of stimulation relationships excitement uh unpredictability, or do you want to be like, living, in, a, uh, you, know,, sort, of a twe brownstone in Brooklyn with your children in pinnors where you could tell everybody what you're doing a year from now? Scope is a there's no better or worse. There's no better. There's just better or worse for you. Some people want high scope lives and some people want lower scope lives. My husband at 11 o'clock I'd be getting ready to go to bed and he would look at me and say "Let's go on a pub crawl." You couldn't possibly have higher scope than Jack.

Okay? And I have two of my children have these lives where, you know, they they want everything to be predictable and controllable. And I think that's cool. That's their scope. It's hard when a high scope person marries a low scope person. Okay. But it's you have to work it out. So there's 16 of this. I mean there's this there's the value of radius. That's how much you want to change the world systemically. Okay. And some people want to blow it up and their whole lives are organized. It's the organizing principle is how much you want. And other people like that's somebody else's job. I've got a lot of other values and a lot of other So there are 16 values. I'd love to run them all through with you and I'm happy to. I'll mention one other which is kind of an interesting value. It's the value of belovedness. And this is how important an intimate relationship is to you, a romantic intimate relationship. And it's

a choice. Do you want your personal relationship with a with a say a spouse or a a partner to be the organizing principle of your life? Yes or no? Well it's a continuum. For some people, we just have incredible data that just came in yesterday that says basically for men over the age of 32, the value of belovedness is number one. It's much lower for women. Really?

Yes,, we, have, fun, with, data., Okay., So, values are ways that we show up in the world, live, work, play, and relate that we can decide how much or how little we want in our life. They're not virtues. Virtues are things like integrity and courage. Virtues are social constructs that we all agree everybody should have more, of., All right?, So, I, am, sure, that you I mean you could find out we could find out in 22 minutes what your values were because we have a test for that called the values bridge which 70,000 people have now taken and I created it because we wanted to scale becoming you as a methodology. Okay. So the first thing we have to do to do the becoming you methodology is figure out what our values are number one we rank order them 1 to 16 but we also tell people um how much they're actually living their values because you can hold the value of scope. Scope could be your number one

value. it is for 14% of the population but you could not be able to live it right now because you've got a job where you've got to be there. You've got a kid who's got um say learning disabilities and you can't live your scope. And so we call that number your authenticity gap. And if you've got a big one, you know it because it hurts.

So, um, what, we, do, as, part, of, the, becoming methodology is we give you firm data on what your values are and how much you're actually living them. This is uh transformative for people because they're like usually the response is holy you know what um this is this is the self-portrait I have been afraid to talk to people about or um I was had dinner with friends the other night they took my test when it was in beta and the husband said to me Susie you changed my life I said what Alex what he said yeah because I was on all these boards all these nonprofit boards and then my valuesbridge results came back and Radius was number 16 and I thought why am I spending all my time on these nonprofit boards when actually I'm just doing it to look good. I don't really care.

And, uh, he, changed, some, things, around. So you it's it's on a it's on like a scale right? Of these 16

each, each, one, of, the, 16, is, on, a, scale, right?, and, and, and, so, like, what, are, what are your I'm I'm dealing with this like in real time and I know from reading the work like that this is going to be a big point of us to to really go deep on because of yeah I think I have a different way of viewing values and I think that's why I was really looking forward to this conversation.

So, what, are, your, top, few, that, that, you that you are very high in? Okay, so, I, know, my, of, course, I, as, the, you know I know my values backwards and forward my number one value happens to be cosmos because I'm a very faithful person. Cosmos is the value that reflects how much um religion or faith is the organizing principle of your life. Um and so for me, cosmos is number one. Um I put everything through that screen of of my faith. And um Cosmos is kind of interesting. We have so much data on it. Um across generations, who has it high, who has it low, it's actually a barbell value. Either it's like number one, two, or three for people or it's number 14, 15 or 16.

There's not a lot of people who have it in the middle. So um but I there's 40% of people who have have that in my second value is radius u the value we talked about earlier. I have a deep abiding overwhelming desire to organize my life around helping people change change how they live. I want to help people find purpose um because I have this desire to have people wage peace internally. And so I want them to find themselves and be at peace with themselves because I don't know any other way to undo this world of acrimony. And that's so um that's my second um value. My third value is work centrism which is I love work for work's sake. We do not allow the word uh work aholic anywhere near becoming you methodology. We believe there's a value called work centrism. Some people love to work for work's sake and some people just don't

like, work., It's, it's, a, means, to, an, end. And I don't think that's good or bad. There's only good or bad for you. There's consequences perhaps. Um, if you don't like work, you may not be able to have the affluence you desire, but work centrism is a continuum. I was one time at a conference, a woman came up to me and she said, "I got to talk to you. My husband's a workaholic." And I said "We don't allow that word in our world. Your husband has high work centrism. We don't judge." And she and she said, "Yeah yeah, no, you're right." I said "He wants to organize his life around work."

And she said, "Yeah, he'd get the company logo tattooed on his ass if he could. And he just loves work so much. It's whereas all is meaning is and and I said well I think you might have low work centrisism and she said no I think the problem is I have high work centrisism too but I've not been able to live it because of my children.

I, said, well, don't, resent, him, for, his high work centers if you've got it also. So I think we so that's my third top value. Um and then after that I am very high on the value of achievement which is I like to that's the value of um having success for um that other people can see. I'm not going to lie that's a value for me. My fifth value is place. Uh, location is a value. I mean, for some people, for me it is. I have to live in New York. I'm a New Yorker through and through. Perhaps you could notice that um already because I just I just live and breathe New York. Um, but for other people, they could live anywhere. In that case, place as a value would be quite low for them.

H, Okay., So,, can, I, give, an, example, of, how I came up with my values and then you can share why I'm wrong or not? Or maybe

I'm, Look,, I'm, an, academic, so, I, but, I mean I'm happy to hear. I mean, go ahead.

I, think, I, think, this, is, fun., Actually,, I this is again this is why I wanted to I listen to your you on other podcasts and stuff. Okay. So, I'll I'll just give one example. So, I I mentioned thoughtful thankful, curious, and consistent. The critical behavior that aligns with my thankful value for example is I think you got to have behaviors to make values true is leave it better. That's the phrase in my mind, which is leave people, places, and things better than I found them. And so then if I want to say am I living in alignment with my val my thankful value at the end of each day I say did I leave Suzie better than I found her? Did I leave the park better than I found it? Was there a piece of trash I pick it up? Right? Did I did I leave it did I leave it better? So to me this is a very simple and clear and easy way to live out my value of being thankful. And one of the reasons that

thankful is one of my values is I have been born into an amazing situation. great parents, great brothers, great family now, marriage, kids, all that. And I think when you've been given a lot, you should give a lot. And that's how you show gratitude. Okay. So, I'm I'm I'm using this one example.

Let, me, let, me, respond., I, I, love, you, for that. I think it's a very beautiful thing, my friend. That's a virtue. Everybody should be like you. Okay. Everybody should be when it when everybody should do it because the world would be better if everybody thought that way. It's a virtue. Um, gratitude thankfulness, that's a virtue and please continue to live that way, but it shouldn't be a choice. I think that

we're, talking, about, the, difference between virtues and and values as we were saying. So, can you define the difference between a virtue and a value?

Yes., A, virtue, is, a, generally, accepted social construct or behavior that we all should have more of.

Okay. There's, no, debate., No, one's, going, to, say leave the world worse than it should be. And the fact that the fact that you live by it, it's beautiful. I'm not telling you not to. Everyone should have more virtues. Okay. Society would be better. And you what you listed were your virtues. I think that's fantastic. Yeah.

Values, are, choices., Okay., There, are choices about how much excitement you want in your life, how much uh how family centrism is a value. Like how central is your family as an organizing principle?

But, wouldn't, everybody, say, of, course like every like that's my god. Let me let me

everybody, would, say, family., Of, course they wouldn't. I have absolute data to tell you you're wrong. I mean, family centrism, how much family is an organizing principle of your life is not universally shared. Only 50% of people have it in their top five values.

Really? Yes., But, you, make, a, fabulous, point, for me because we assume everybody else's values, don't we? You just said everybody has family centism. They don't. Seven for me.

But, you, just, assumed, that, I, said thankful. You're like, well, of course everybody should do that. Everybody's like,

"That's, a, virtue." I, know., I, know., But, like, we're, we're doing the same thing here because I'm saying the same thing with family. You're saying the same thing with being thankful.

No,, no,, no., I'm, these, are, totally different definitions. They're totally different definitions. I don't want to nerd out too much on your poor listeners. But I would say

I, love, this., This, is, this, is, what, IT'S ALL ABOUT. I, WOULD, JUST, SAY, THAT, LOOK,, how, much, you organize your life around your family is up to you because you could decide not to have children. You could decide never to get married. You could decide, I love my family, but I want to see them three times a year.

Okay., And, so, family, centrism, is, a, choice and actually people make like we just have data right now about how much people are choosing to so only 50% have family centism in the top five. Okay. So that makes it a value where it's a choice and it exists on a continuum.

I'm, kind, of, surprised, you, don't, have that in one of your in your top five.

I, look, I, love, my, children., I, have, four fabulous children. I I sometimes I overexpressed on family centism because I I had to. But I'm a working person. I love work. I when my kids were growing up I say I used to say to them I love you but I love my work too. And I do when you when when Jack was alive, do you think family centrism would have been in the top five?

I, think, um, for, neither, of, us,, family centism would ever been in the top five. For either of us, belovedness was belovedness how much we valued each other

with, our, marriage., Our, marriage, was, I mean when Jack was living probably I had cosmos and then certainly belovedness and I'm I think that Jack probably had belovedness and then cosmos. And I wish he had lived to um to take the test. Um, but neither of us, you know, we were often telling the kids "We're going off on vacation by ourselves. See you later." Um, and we were very clear about it that the marriage came first. We used to say to them all the time, "The greatest gift we can give you is our happy marriage." And it was a great gift that we gave them.

And I was dancing at my son's wedding. Uh, Jack was still living then and my son got married to his wonderful wife. And when we were dancing in that first dance, he said to me, "The greatest gift you gave me and Michelle was the example of yours and Jack's marriage." Oh. So you live for that. Um but interestingly my son that same son has family centrism as his number one value

and, he, has, achievement, down, at, 11., So he's made a lot of um decisions in his life. Um you know I think what a lot of stuff that goes on is people like you know the younger generation should care more about achievement. They just don't. The number one value for Gen Z is what we call udeimmonia and that's self-care. And the reason why we don't use self-care and we use a Greek word instead is because we don't want people's heads to blow off their body.

You, mentioned, self-care, and, all, you, you just start a fight in the street. But 75% of Gen Z has as their top value self-care well-being pleasure leisure. And that's not true for other older generations. It's not true for my generation for instance.

Why, why, do, you, think, that, is? Um, I, think, that, the, reason, is, that, um uh kids these days look at the deal um that's being offered to them by companies like and they don't want it. They don't want to work really really hard and then get laid off. They don't want to work really hard and then be replaced by AI and they think why would I chase achievement when achievement just brings you anxiety.

Um, now, I, I, you, know, I, don't, agree, with that. I think but I'm a different person and my feeling is that's their right have that value. I don't I don't think work centrism or achievement are virtues. I think we get to have a choice about them.

Yeah., I, think, that, part, of, it, really because like saying Gen Z is like something I know you have some of the data to back that up but but I feel like I I I just met with a I just did an event at Ohio University this week um with a great um an amazing friend and author named James Clear who wrote Atomic Habits and we met these kids. There's 250 students there and they and I I think they they probably picked the best of the best but still they blew my mind with how impressive they are. The internships the big companies

those, that, maybe, they, just, picked, all the achievement valued kids in there but

it, just, made, me, feel, amazing, for, the future of our country. The these kids they are miles ahead of where I I was just playing football in college. They were miles ahead of where I was. So I I don't know, like, in, a, way, I, feel, really really optimistic about our future as a country because of kids like that.

I, meet, those, kids, too, and, they're, often self- selected to come meet us um when we go and visit places. Okay. I meet them too. I mean many of my students look I'm at a fine business school and so many of my students present this way as well but we have 70,000 data points and you know and I encounter the other kind of um uh you know the other values presentation as well. And again, I have no shade. I If you want to have your top values, the top values generally for Gen Z are um I wrote about this in the Wall Street Journal the other day. The top three values for Gen Z are udemonia which is self-care. The second one is voice, which is authentic self-expression. They want to just they want to be authentically self-expressing. And the third one is helping other people non city um which is that they want to organize their lives. They want to have jobs where they feel like they're helping people. Now

I'd say that um this is wonderful except for that we've al also have research on I mean I think it's wonderful and and power to them. Okay, they can't you come by your values how you come by them. You have every right to live the values that you have if you're not if you're not hurting anybody that we though we did research in our labs of of hiring managers and they had to be 40 years old managing at least five people. They were all in the knowledge industries. And we showed them all the definitions of the values and we said, "Which ones do you want in your new hires?" And the number one value was achievement. Okay? They want people who want to win. Number two value was scope. They want people who want to learn and grow. And the number three value was work centrism. And the overlap is 2%. So that 2%'s out there.

Um,, and, you, met, them, at, Ohio, State, and, I meet them all the time as well, but the vast majority are like, I don't want to buy this bargain. My parents bought it and it sucks. Um and so but this you know what to

those you got to make money you know like exactly, so, there's, a, part, of, this, where th those may be their values right now and after four years of not working they're going to say okay it's time for me to repress my values or or delay my values. That's very possibly what will happen. Um but they're certainly not coming out of the gate saying I'm ready to buy into the values that the hiring managers are looking for. I mean, they are. Goldman Sachs goes and finds those companies. JP Morgan finds those those those uh those individuals

but, uh, it's, not, it's, not, as, widespread as, uh you might think. Okay., Values, excavation., We, could probably talk about the rest of time but we're going to go to part two

and, then, part, three, because, well,, we just kind of briefly touched on part three there for a second because you got to figure out like what the world like what you can do that the world will pay you to do. Okay. Identification of your aptitudes. How does this work? Yeah this is another thing that we don't know enough well enough about ourselves is what we're actually good at. We actually have nine cognitive aptitudes. You know are you a generalist or a specialist? Are you a um inductive reasoner or or a data processor? Are you a brainstormer or or a you know, a person? Do you brainstorm ideas or are you a person who sort of comes up with one fully baked idea a year? These are all uh cognitive aptitudes that are pretty preset in us by age 15. We're born with them. And we can go through life living leaning into our aptitudes or not. And you know look, if I took told you right now, take

out a pen, sign your name with your dominant hand. You would do it. It would feel great. You could do it all day long. Then I would say, switch the hand to your non-dominant, switch the pen to your non-dominant hand, and your signature would look terrible. And you could practice your whole life and your signature would get slightly better. Or you could spend your whole life writing with your dominant hand. And aptitudes are the dominant hand of our brain. You know we are good at certain ways of processing information, thinking uh seeing the world like are you a future focuser a person who really loves to look to the horizon is not freaked out by it or are you a present focuser and you know it's painful painful to be a person who's say a generalist in a specialist job or to be a present focuser in a future focuser's job. So we do a lot of testing as part of the methodology to figure out what your

cognitive aptitudes are. So you can build a career that leans into what you're already good at. Okay? Underlying. But we also take a look at another part of aptitudes which is your personality. Because you can be very very good at a job because of your personality and you can be terrible at a job because of your personality. And uh and so we look very closely at what your personality is. Now my students often start out by thinking, "Oh my god, I already know what my personality is. I'm kind. I'm thoughtful. I'm compassionate.

I'm a good listener. I'm loyal. And I think, well, maybe you are, but your personality is not the list of adjectives you write down about yourself. Your your personality is how the world experiences you. So, let's go find out how the world experiences you. And they all go through 360 feedback. Uh we do it with a tool called Pi 360. Uh which is a very uh fast, it takes five minutes. You give it to 30 20 to 40 people and they anonymously gets aggregated and people tell you how the world experiences you. And it's a very interesting experience for students to find out how they're actually experienced. And we only measure three things. How are you with people? What's the quality of your relationships with people? What is the quality of your ideas and thinking? And what's the quality of your execution? Do you get things done? Uh and really that's about trustworthiness and reliability. And they get a they get a a a report card.

And then they're given a a final number which usually blows their minds which is about self-awareness because they've rated themselves as well. And when we compare what the world says about them and how they rated themselves and they get a score and everybody thinks they're going to, get, 100%, on, self-awareness, and that is not the case. So that's how we come about aptitudes. We take a good hard look at your cognitive aptitudes and we do that with testing and then we look at your um uh your personality and we also do the ENOG uh which is a personality type indicator. We're currently working on a version of that test that's more accurate because it has a little bit of accuracy problems. Um it's a wonderful test, but it has to be facilitated, but we're hoping to get a more efficacious version of that out there on the market pretty soon.

Okay,, let's, go, into, yours., What, what what did what did it when you did this work on yourself for part two? What what popped up?

Well,, I, mean,, I, think, I, was, I'm, old,, so I already knew my aptitudes. I'm a future focuser. I'm an inductive reasoner. I'm a sequential thinker. Um one of the wonderful things to see confirmed was that uh there's a a scale that measures whether or not you're a 3D visualizer, whether you can move objects in space. It's a very good thing if you're in product, if you're an architect, a designer. And I am so bad at that. I'm all the way at the end as an abstract thinker. My dad was an architect and my mom was an artist.

They're both they both were incredible um 3D visualizers and they were always like, "What's wrong with Suzie?" And the fact was like I was way over there reading Camu and they were like designing sailboats and uh and it's very interesting. So it was fun and confirming to understand why I got a D minus in architecture when I tried to take that in uh high school. Um I think that uh with any I'm a a classic achiever. I'm a achiever. I'm a threewing two an achiever with helper tendencies meaning I I like to help people a lot but I'm also very um achievementoriented. And then uh when it comes to how the world experiences me, I always go through it with my students.

Um I think that I've learned a lot about myself, but the wisdom, you know there's one thing about being older is that the world pretty much eventually tells you how it's experiencing you. So I was my my self-awareness score was quite high. Thank God.

So, who, but, who, do, you, send, the, three? It's got to be beyond students, right? Like do you send friends, friends family? Like who do who do you send it to? And I'm curious what what you learned or confirmed from here because like I want to do this more now. I love 360s. I've done them for myself. I've done them for others.

Pi, 360., We'll, get, you, a, copy, of, it because it is it's online. So, what, what, did, you, learn?, Like, what did you get back? And actually I'd rather learn what did you get back that was surprising.

Okay., I, want, to, say, that, what, I, got, back was that I was not good enough at telling people and showing people that uh um I let me put it this way. I thought that my life my life is a bit of a hurricane. I'm building a company. I am a very high scope person. I have tons of things going on. And um I always thought well people understand that I'm kind of a walking hurricane, but they understand I'm the eye of the hurricane. I'm the calm at the center of it. And the world said back to me, baby, you are the hurricane. And so I've had to um downgrade myself to a tropical storm.

And so what I learn to do is when it's a hurricaney kind of day, I like literally turn to the people I'm with and I say things like, "I got this. I'm enjoying this. I understand it looks chaotic. I am in control." I had to communicate better that I knew that there were a lot of plates up in the air and I was going to be able to catch them all. And I I I typically can. Um but I had to become better at explaining uh what was inside my brain. And that was it was enormously helpful feedback to me. People were experiencing me as too chaotic

and, I, had, to, explain, that, um, and, I, had to start I had to stop acting as chaotic. I had to just calm it down. I was I was freaking people out.

You, we've, been, talking, about self-awareness. Uh Tasha Urick maybe you've done work with her. She's written multiple books on self-awareness. She's been on this podcast a few times. basically cited the same stats that you're citing that everybody in the world thinks they have extremely high levels of self-awareness and yet almost nobody does. What What are some tools? The 360 is definitely a good one. What are some additional tools or diff additional ways people can become more self-aware?

I, think, that, uh, I've, tried, everything and I think the only answer is a tool. No one is ever going to tell you. I have to tell you a quick story. I was a when I started my career, I was a crime reporter in Miami and I covered I drove all day long from police station to police station. In those days, nothing was automated and I found out what was going on in each community in Miami. And I a a fabulous young lieutenant named Joe Lado took me under his wing and he said, "I kind of like you, Susie because most of the crime reporters um they hate the police and and and you'll give us a break or you'll listen to us.

Um but there's a problem with you. You um you like the criminals too much and you always think that they've got a backstory and you want me to feel sorry for the criminals." And I said, "Oh blah blah blah blah." And I kind of made my case. Well, a few weeks later, um uh, there was a guy who was about to go on trial for attempted murder. And, uh Lieutenant Lado said to me, "Why don't you come to meet him before his trial because, you're, going to, be, covering, the trial." And it was a, it was a case where he had tried to kill his girlfriend and her daughter. And so I went and I talked to him in the courthouse and and by the in the jail house. And by the time I was done talking to him, I was like sobbing. And I came outside and I said to Joe Lado "This guy's been framed. What a terrible case. I hope he gets off. I can't wait to cover this trial. What a sad case.

Okay, then we go to trial. The guy is so guilty. It's unbelievable. He and the and I after he was they literally had fingerprints, DNA, everything. And after it was all over, I said to Jolado, "Why in the world did you do this to me? Like why'd you make a fool of me this way?" And he said, "You needed to understand something that uh I hope you remember for the rest of your life." And it's this. Everyone writes the story of their life with themselves at the center as the hero. Okay? So no matter what story we're telling ourselves, we always tell it with ourselves as the hero.

And, so, anyway,, very, sadly,, he, went, on, to lose his life in the line of duty, which is a great tragedy. But I will take him forward to everybody with this um with this line that everyone write, he told this to me, everyone writes the story of their lives with themselves at the center as the hero. And I think that one way we can uh you know try to be more self-aware is to understand that when we are telling the story of everything we are making ourselves the hero and we have to beware. We have to beware but that's hard. So short of that I like testing.

Got, to, have, the, people, in, your, life, who are truth tellers. Using tests could be helpful., Right., But, I, I I, agree, with you. I I just feel like you got to have truth tellers in your life. people that are willing to give you feedback.

But, you, know what?, Nobody, wants, to, be, a truth teller. I mean, I think that

they, do., Why, Why, would, you, not, want, to be a truth teller? Because, you, do, the, calculus, in, your head. I'm going to tell my daughter that she's too sarcastic with her friends and you do the calculus in your head. She's going to be mad at me for three days. She's not going to hear me. and then I her birthday party's going to. So I think that yeah, everybody wants to be a trutht teller, but every single time we're about to tell something very hard to someone we love, we do the calculus about the blowback. And so yeah, when we're our best selves, we do tell the truth and we are the truth tellers, but it's one of the hardest things we do as human beings is to tell to as Kim Scott you know, to practice radical cander.

You know, she's got her beautiful construct. I teach it to my students. You know, I think 10% of the population practices radical cander where you care personally and challenge directly. We just we just care personally and we keep the challenging directly to ourselves. Everybody can be better at it. So you're right. We've got to have truth tellers around us, but even the truth tellers will air on the side of love.

What, do, you, do, for, your, friends?, Let's let's let's kids are another animal. Like, I'm with you. It is so tough, but it's also like you got to figure out a way and and and every kid's different every personality is different. What about with your your close friends and you notice something that is not quote good? Like what do you do?

I, am, not, great, at, this really. You, seem, pretty, like, I, like, being, able to banter with you. It's fun because like you know your stuff. I wouldn't do this with somebody who didn't know what they were talking about.

Yeah., No,, I, mean, thank, you., Thank, you., I mean I wish I was better at it. I mean I think that I have said I I I on the side of empathy. I think that I know so much about my friends. I think you know her marriage is struggling. Uh her kids an addict. Um which happens and and I think I can't I you know I try to tell the truth and I but I try to do it in a way that they can hear. Um I could be better at it. I mean there's definitely times where I've had friends say to me, "Thank you. I needed you to say that to me and I and actually one thing that happens when you're kind of a a pra practitioner of radical cander which I I I very much am at work and with my students and probably overindex on it with my kids much more than any other mother that I know. Um uh a lot of times friends will come with me come to me and say Susie I think I can count on you to tell me the truth. What is it?

And in those situations I'm quite direct. Um, and, so, but, I, try, to, I, tried, to, speak truth in love. I mean, I want them to understand this is coming from a place of constructive love, but I I I feel sad that I still have a friendship that I lost years ago because I could not practice radical cander. I I don't know why I couldn't do it. Um I and I see this person intermittently and I think it's too late now. Um tell the truth but it's on my on my list of things to do.

You, did, not, say, tell, the, truth. No. What, do, you, mean? Well,, I, thought, that, she, had, done something wrong um in regards to something at work I want to be kind of vague about. She had done something at work that I thought was lacking in integrity. I didn't know all the details and that's why I didn't go for it completely, but I suspected she had cheated at work in a certain way

and, I, I, suspected, it, and, instead, of confronting it directly, I just I just slowly but surely backed off from her. Um, and it was so awkward. It was like I didn't have the full facts and I think she had just had a baby. Um, and she'd actually, here's the even layer on top of it. She had lost a baby and then had a baby and I just couldn't do it. I mean, I just I thought, what if I'm wrong? This woman has been through too much

and, it, it, kind, of, stunk. Susie,, isn't, life, really, really, messy? Yeah,, messy, fault.

You, know, what, I'm, saying?, Like,, you think it's black and white? It is just not. It's It's not. That's one of the things. So 650 plus of these conversations,, 11, years,, one, of the things I've learned is to be much more reasonable, to be much less judgmental and much more curious. To quote Ted Lasso, that is that is when you talk to a lot of people and you try to have these in-depth conversations where you can go anywhere and ask anything. When you get a microphone, you're allowed just to say it and ask anything. It's kind of it's kind of cool.

Yeah., Yeah., But, but, what, you, learn, is like people and their stories, they're tough and they're messy and they're they're there's a lot of nuance to them. So when anyone has like these hard and fast black and white things, I'm like that's not life, man. Like that's not how it goes.

100%, agree, with, you., I, mean,, I, think, one of the reasons I like two thoughts. One of the reasons why I like the values bridge is it allows us to have very difficult conversations in a nuanced way. Let's just talk about work. There is no black or white. There's a continuum for how much it matters to you. No shade. It's not wrong or right. It's wrong or right for you. Family centrism, you know, how much you want to organize your life around your family. That's a choice. It has consequences. Where are you on it? Let's talk about it in a reasonable way. But there are so many shades of gray and being more reasonable when we talk to people. Oh my god. To bring the temperature down. What a great thing that would be.

Let's, go, to, part, three., Uh, open, the aperture on your economically viable interests. essentially what can you do that people will pay you for?

A, little, bit, more, than, that, though, it's it's the work that calls you intellectually and emotionally that matches your value of affluence. So one of the, things, we, test, for, in, the, values bridge is how important money is to you because people say uh money everybody lies to themselves about how much money matters. That's why we test for it behaviorally um and you find out where affluence is. I mean sometimes I get people who they get back their values bridge results and their number one value is self-care udimonia and their second value is affluence and then they say to me is this going to be a problem and I said do you promise not to kill the messenger because you know it's there these things can be in conflict so we test how much money matters to you would think it would be in the top five for everybody and it's really not I mean 15% of people have affluence as a very peripheral value they just don't care

about, their, whether, [clears throat], All right and then there's the vast majority have it as sort of a moderate value between four and seven and then there's about uh there's 34% whoever have it as a top value. Um the trick is or not the trick but the uh strategy is to find work that both calls you emotionally andor intellectually but also is aligned with your value of affluence and depending on how much you care about affluence the circle of opportunity is bigger or smaller. If a if affluence is your top value, then the you've got to look at all the work that calls you intellectually, emotionally, there may only be one job that also also pays in that category. So the problem, the reason why we use the term open the aperture is that a lot of people get onto a conveyor belt of what they're going to do with their career. And uh when there's great research that shows that when kids come out of high school, they

only know about five jobs, two of which are their parents. I mean, they really can't list a lot of jobs. There's just they're busy learning the recorder and about Egyptian ancient Egyptian um history, but nobody's telling them guess what there's 135 industries um and there are literally thousands of different types of work. Let us tell you the difference between logistics and HR. Let's tell you what a mediator is. Let's talk to you about all the different types of jobs that there are. Nope. Nope. They're busy learning about Egyptian hieroglyphics. So, um, uh, not that I, you know, resent having done that homework with my children four times, but whatever. I think that we have to open the aperture because there is so much more work that people could know about. So then you go to college you'd think that um, okay, oh, now they're going to know a lot about it lots of different jobs. Nope, it goes

only up to seven. And by the time people are in graduate school, they're really just thinking about two or three options. They are like my MBAs, it's banking, consulting, or tech, right? They don't even think about aviation ship build, all the things. I mean there are so many industries and types of work. And there's 12 mega trends right now. I mean, at different times there's different identified mega trends. People don't even think about mega trends. Maybe 0.00001% of the population think, oh, uh, like right now, one of the identified uh, mega trends is space mining. Okay, you could learn everything. I'm going to get into space mining right now. Um, but they don't even, nobody's talking about it unless you're deeply curious in that way. So there's two things that we do in the part this part of the methodology.

One is we play a game called opportunity bingo where we literally force people to learn about the 135 industries and we and uh different types of jobs that exist and then we I actually teach the mega trends because I feel like they're not going to find them out themselves. And so we go through that process. But the facts are that your your currency is your currency. how much you know about how big and wide and deep the world is the more you give yourself opportunity and so that's a discipline that's on you I mean I can teach it and become a you tries to teach it but at the end of the day if you just say well the only thing that only kind of job I could get is X you have not opened your aperture enough there's just I mean I and even with my MBAs who are really kind of savvier than uh you know about the world of work than most even they're like oh Yeah, it didn't dawn on me I could do X. And I

was like, yeah, well, go for it. I mean I was I use this example of uh nutree farming, which is an incredibly fast growing industry that cannot find people and they have a need for managers, they have, a, need, for, logistics,, they, have a need, for, communications,, they, have a need for everything and they cannot find people. That's one of the fastest growing industries in the world right now.

Wow,, that's, fascinating., I, I, appreciate how much deeper it is than cuz sometimes I think about like I get people who you probably get similar types people who say like I want to host a podcast and get keynote speeches and write books like they want to do this type of thing the type stuff that that that I do some of the stuff that you do and and one of the questions I'm like I ask beyond like why do you want to do it and all that we go deep there is though are people willing to pay you money to do it

right, like, because, if, they're, not, then yeah you're right it's a hobby and and so but if you want to make it a business. Like the market doesn't lie. Um are are they willing to pay you or not? And if they're not

but, if, affluence, doesn't, matter, to, them, I think I, mean, I, mean, but, they, do, got, to, live. They got to if they have a a wife and kids and cars and houses and weddings in college, like you know that that's real. So if if they're not willing to give you anything for that, then it's a hobby and it's great and you should do it and maybe do it on the side and maybe it builds up. But it can't be a real business or a thing unless it's it's economically viable.

That's, right., That's, right., And, so,, but I mean I think that some people go I mean look I get the same thing all the time. people saying I want to do exactly what you're doing and I you know there's a lot of questions to ask and if they've got a lot of infrastructure around them as you've just described their affluence they're you know how much you can have a lot of infrastru infrastructure around you and live still live very modestly or you can say look I want to send all my kids to private colleges and that's going to that has to be part of the conversation how much money you actually want nobody likes to answer that question and I always say to my students like okay you got to have a you only have to tell one person the answer to this question and that's you. But you better get an answer and that's what's the dollar figure.

Yeah. What's, the, number, you, want? It's, real. Don't, around, it., You, got, to, tell yourself that number.

I, want, to, just, ask, before, we, run, a, a, a leadership question. Susie, you've been around some of the greatest leaders in the world. Um uh you are a productive achiever as a leader as well. You you've done amazing amazing things, written bestselling books. When you think about excellence and from a leadership perspective, what have you found to be some of the commonalities among leaders who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time?

Um,, they're, not, doing, it, for, the, money really. I've, never, met, a, great, leader, who, is doing it for the money. Uh, and I have been uh very blessed to know many of the greatest leaders and they just are. They're doing it for the love of the people, the love of excitement, the love of work, uh the love of impact. But I've never met a leader who was doing it for the money.

Who, who, [clears throat], in, your, mind, or like an example or two when I when I say the word or the phrase excellent leader? Who are the first couple of people that pop into your mind?

I, think, Jensen, Wang, is., I, do., I, I, think he's a great leader because he's so clear. He He says, "Here's our mission. Here's our strategy. Here's our goals. Here's our culture." And the whole thing is very cohesive. He doesn't he doesn't try to make everyone happy all at the same time. He's absolutely clear about what they're going to do. They're going to, invent, the, future., They're, going to do it with a bunch of true believers. Uh if you buy in, you don't get laid off. And if you He's He's clear on what excellence looks like. He's fully invested in it. He never was doing it for that money. I mean, he stayed the course year after year because he believed they were doing something. So I think he's great. I think actually you know, he gets bad rap these days because of some some stuff going on, but I think Jeff Bezos was a great leader.

Again, clarity, uh, vision, um, and you know, well, uh, you know, uh and excellence in everything, just absolute excellence in everything. No shortcuts, no. I mean I one time was moderating him on a panel and I said are you looking for um uh we were talking about decision-m and he said what I said what are you looking for in decision-m he said I just want everyone around me to be right I don't want them to be right I want them to be right and I just think like his clarity and his vision was incred is still is incredible but he's not running it dayto-day anymore so

yeah, Jensen, seems, like, he, gets, after, it though like talk about that dude uh uh seems to have a a work centric focus.

Oh,, he's, a, look,, I, use, him, as, an, example of work centrism because there's a great quote of him saying, "I go to movies and I don't remember what they're about because I'm listen because I'm thinking about work."

Yeah. I, It, just, blew, my, mind, because, I, I couldn't sit through a movie with Jack

and, Jack, of, any, good, movie, and, he'd, say, "I'm bored." Because he'd be thinking about work. I mean, Jack and I left our honeymoon after three days because we were so bored and wanted to get back to work.

Are, you, serious? Yeah. We're, laying, on, the, beach, in, Barbados and we were really

both, of, you, both, of, you, felt, that, way. Oh,, completely., I, mean,, we, were, the, same person. And then he looked over at me and I looked over to him. He goes "Are you bored?" I said, "I'm so bored." And we went home.

Why, don't, you, like, go, hiking, or something? That's more fun than just laying down on a beach.

Well,, we, we, weren't., That, would, have been even more boring to us. We wanted to go back to work. We were building something.

I, think, it's, cool, though,, like, when, you realize that like, hey, like what why are we fooling ourselves here? Let's let's go.

Yeah,, we, did., We, were, very, clear, about everything and because our values were so identical, it was very easy. Uh my daughter um just got married, but before she got married um she and her husband took the values bridge and they said "Oh,, come, on,, mom., Come, come come, talk to us about our values." So the tool has a function where if you both opt in, it puts your values next to each other and it compares where you where how whether your values are similar or different and where the conflicts might be. And as I was walking towards them to see what their values were, remember that that their wedding was scheduled at this point. Um I was walking towards them and as I walked into the room, I was like literally, "Please God, please God." And then my daughter said to me, "Is it normal when two people have the exact same top six values?" And I was like "Thank you, God. They have the exact

they were number one through six were the exact same values. They've got married last week. I was no mother was happier than I was because I know that they're I you know, look, life will, you know, they'll have their ups and downs like any other marriage, but have the exact same values is a very good thing." So,

wow., One, more., Uh, we, we'll, get, the, links to to to take to take these assessments for everybody listening. But uh one more before we run. Susie, um

you're, you, regularly, are, around, uh ambitious, growth focused, I want to leave a positive dent in the world type people,

a, lot, of, them, students,, a, lot, of, them younger. What are some general pieces of lifecareer advice you give to those types of people?

Okay,, the, number, one, piece, of, advice, I'd give is that it's better to be the author of your life than the editor. This happens when you are ambitious and you want to make a dent. You are typically surrounded by a lot of people and typically you're a learner and a collaborator and then you start getting a lot of voices in your head and you can end up being the editor of your life and look I have definitely been in a position where I used to say there are a lot of stakeholders in Susie Inc. But at a certain point, you have to become the author of your life. And the way you do that is by knowing who you are. And we put that off and we put that off. But you have got to paint a self-portrait of yourself standing still so that when you start running, you know where you're going and why. And you should have editors and you should have push back but you have you got to put the pen in your hand and write that story.

So, good., So, good., Um,, the, book, that we're referencing is called Becoming You, a stepbystep journey to uncovering your unique path to achieving success. I was introduced by our mutual friend Hollis., She's, the, best., I, don't, know if you want to tell your Hollis story. Uh

this, is, this, is, one, of, the, great, is Hollis Heinbeck. She was we were young uh editors together at the Harvard Business School publishing company. I think I met her in 1995. uh she's been my editor for a long time and and a great and a great and dear friend of mine. Um and when I first uh thought okay, the values bridge as a tool has to be has to be digitized and it has to I I I have to scale this tool so that other people can find out what their values are. I drew it on a yellow pad and I got in a cab and I went way downtown to her office and I went up to her uh cubicle and I showed it to her. It she her voice was the most important thing and she said "You've got something here Susie." And it was a gigantic, it was the vote of confidence that I needed to go forward.

So, good., Uh, Susie,, thank, thank, you, so much for being here and I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress.

I'd, love, that, too. Thank, you, so, much.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Discover Your Calling (Before It’s Too Late) | Suzy Welch’s 3-Step Method"?

Ryan Hawk (Host), Suzy Welch (Guest).

What is "Discover Your Calling (Before It’s Too Late) | Suzy Welch’s 3-Step Method" about?

The main topic addresses the difference between pursuing passion and achievement in career choices, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's values and cognitive aptitudes to find true fulfillment. Suzy Welch introduces a three-step method to help individuals define their calling, encouraging them to take proactive steps in authoring their own life stories rather than conforming to…

What is mentioned in this Ryan Hawk episode?

38 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Becoming You, NYU, achievement, scope, Values Bridge, Values Bridge. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Discover Your Calling (Before It’s Too Late) | Suzy Welch’s 3-Step Method"?

The episode runs 59 min; the transcript is about 12,890 words in 149 timestamped sections.

More from Ryan Hawk

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.