Marcus Capone & Jon Shenk - “In Waves and War” & Healing Trauma With Psychedelics | The Daily Show

What this episode is about

Marcus Capone, a former Navy SEAL, shares his journey through the challenges of trauma and failed antidepressant treatments, ultimately leading him to an experimental psychedelic therapy in Mexico. Film director Jon Shenk discusses the motivation behind documenting Capone's transformative experience, highlighting the need for new approaches to mental health treatment, particularly for veterans.

Key takeaways

• After 7 years of antidepressants, exposure to psychedelics might be the breakthrough veterans need.
• Veteran suicide outnumbers combat deaths 21 to 1—highlighting a critical gap in post-service support.
• Ibogaine may represent a promising frontier in mental health, needing more research rather than clandestine trips.
• Transitioning from combat to civilian life is a huge leap; our systems barely prepare veterans for it.
• It's not just about surviving combat; it’s about thriving afterward—let's reshape the narrative around veteran care.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Michael Kosta (Guest) · 4 min speaking
• Marcus Capone (Guest) · 5 min speaking
• Jon Shenk (Guest) · 4 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 3:00: ibogaine, Jon Shenk, Marcus Capone, In Waves and Wars
2. 3:00 – 6:00: ibogaine, In Waves and Wars, Jon Shenk
3. 6:00 – 9:00: ibogaine, Marcus Capone, Jon Shenk, VETS, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions
4. 9:00 – 12:00: ibogaine, VETS, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions
5. 12:00 – 12:22: Marcus Capone, In Waves and Wars, Jon Shenk

Notable quotes from "Marcus Capone & Jon Shenk - “In Waves and War” & Healing Trauma With Psychedelics | The Daily Show"

• And lucky for me, my wife, Amber, was working in the background with a few doctors and organized me to go down to Mexico and do an experimental investigative psychedelic drug called ibogaine.

  about Amber Capone · at 0:54

• Well, we interviewed dozens of special operators who had been down to Mexico to do the treatment.

  about Jon Shenk · at 5:37

• States are passing laws to funnel money from opioid abatement programs over to ibogaine research because the drug can be so effective with addiction issues.

  about ibogaine · at 8:21

• And to date now, we've put over 1,200 individuals, fully paid for, for treatment.

  about VETS, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions · at 9:34

• In Waves and Wars-- available to stream on Netflix.

  about In Waves and Wars · at 12:00

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Marcus Capone — Person · Main guest · 3 mentions · first at 0:09
  Former Navy SEAL who shares his mental health struggles, ibogaine treatment experience in Mexico, and his nonprofit work helping veterans access treatment.
  Marcus, tell us a little bit about VETS, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions.
• Jon Shenk — Person · Main guest (filmmaker) · 5 mentions · first at 1:22
  Film director who explains why he made the documentary about Marcus and Amber’s story, the animation approach to depicting ibogaine, and the policy/legislative screenings.
• Amber Capone — Person · Key referenced participant (spouse/caregiver; co-founder) · 2 mentions · first at 0:54
  Marcus Capone’s wife who coordinated his ibogaine treatment in Mexico and is described as instrumental in founding and running the nonprofit effort to help other veterans.

Companies & orgs

• VETS, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions — Company · Business focus · 2 mentions · first at 8:38
  Nonprofit organization founded by Marcus Capone to help veterans access ibogaine treatment

Products & tech

• In Waves and Wars — Product · Primary recommendation · 3 mentions · first at 1:52
  Documentary film about veterans using ibogaine for PTSD, created by Marcus Capone and Jon Shenk

Concepts & topics

• ibogaine — Concept · Core topic · 7 mentions · first at 1:03
  Central to the discussion as an experimental psychedelic treatment for veterans with PTSD and trauma

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 All right. One of you is a former Navy SEAL. One of you is a film director. - Guess which? MICHAEL KOSTA: Who's who? Marcus, thank you for your service. Thank you for all that you've done for this country. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Tell us a little bit about your story and how we ended up here. So to start, I spent 13 years on active duty. As you mentioned, I was a Navy SEAL, and enjoyed every moment of it. Towards the latter part of my career, started-- started experiencing, I call, like, the hidden wounds of war.

0:34 And in 2010, I started seeing some doctors, and I got prescribed my first antidepressant. And from there, I was on them for seven years. And as we know now, antidepressants fail about 50% of the people who are prescribed them. And I was one of them. And so I wish that someone gave me a lifeline earlier. But for me, it was seven years of failed treatments. And lucky for me, my wife, Amber, was working in the background with a few doctors and organized me to go down to Mexico and do an experimental investigative psychedelic drug called ibogaine.

1:05 Most people never heard of it. I never heard of it. And I grew up in New York. I went to Catholic high school. For me, this was extremely foreign. It was-- Also, normally people go to Mexico to do drugs, and they don't tell their wives. Exactly. This was the opposite. So go down to Mexico, do a psychedelic, and you're going to get better. So that's kind of how this got presented to me. Jon, how did you end up making a film about it? And why is that important for you? Well, Amber and Marcus started talking about this amazing treatment that he got in Mexico in 20-- I think it was 2017.

1:35 We heard about it a couple years later. And we thought, Navy SEALs tripping balls? There's just something-- there's got to be a story there. In all seriousness, we met Amber and Marcus, and they told us their story. And we were just immediately hooked. And in the film, you see their backstory. You experience it with them. And then in the film, you get to go kind of inside their heads because we do this animation that simulates the ibogaine experience. Beautiful animation. We'll talk about that in a second. But, you know, one of the things that blew me away is military members are committing suicide almost four times-- here in the United States-- more than combat deaths over there in war.

2:21 And it's wild to me. We think about the lives over there, but we almost forget about the lives here. And I just-- what are we missing? What are the civilians missing about when you come back? So, Michael, to put it in context, we lost roughly 7,000, those killed in combat since 9/11. Today, we have over 150,000 veterans that have died by suicide. And many people don't know that number. That's a huge number. And so, like, what are we doing? What's wrong? Is it the system? Is it the individuals? Like, nobody has the answer.

2:52 But it's happening, and we need to do something about it. We don't need to keep sending people to Mexico to do an experimental drug. We need to have research here and do it here. It feels like there's boot-- and I'm a civilian. I played college tennis. So just forgive me for not knowing the terminology. But there's boot camp. There's training to go in. But what happens when you come out? There's not a lot of training. There are some programs set up, but they almost look like they're checking the box for many. And most of us, especially in the Special Operations community, we go out, and we try to do it on our own.

3:28 We were-- we did it on our own with teammates while we were in, and we try to do the same thing when we're out. It's very difficult transitioning-- running around the mountains of Afghanistan. And next thing you know, you're in a shirt and tie, working in downtown Beverly Hills, you know, on a private bank team. And so very-- two different environments. One of the parts of the film that was so moving was, you're sharing combat stories. And then 48 hours later, your families are talking about-- you're sitting at the dinner table, but it looks like they're gone.

3:56 They're not there. And I'm thinking, how the hell do you go from combat in Afghanistan to sitting with your family, having dinner? What was-- and I don't even know if I'm using the right word. But what is the experience of taking the medicine or the drug actually like? You share it very well in the film. But explain to us how that goes down. I tell most people watch the film. Jon and the team did an extremely good job in showing what the experience was like, except for being, like, on the drug itself. But it was a long experience.

4:27 Ibogaine is a long duration. It's about six- to eight-hour peak experience. It's not fun. - It's not fun. It's a very difficult-- they call it the grandfather of psychedelics. It's a very difficult experience. And the more garbage that you have-- and that those things turn up during these experiences. And so think of taking 5 to 10 years of talk therapy and literally putting in a couple hours in a night. And so there's a lot. You got to prepare. And so you get filled with and get rushed with all these different-- MICHAEL KOSTA: Are you alone?

4:56 Are you with people? No, you're with everybody. It's extremely safe. You're with a whole medical team. And you do a ton of blood work before. You can screen out-- it has a potential heart risk. So you do EKG. You can't have any stimulants in the system. You can't have any alcohol. So it's a very clinical medical procedure. But once you go into the experience, the individuals are watching you. Usually, there's a therapist there. There's nurses there. Cardiologist is there. The animations-- amazing. I mean, you feel like you're in their brain.

5:26 Did you have to coach the animators on that? Did they get it because most animators do a lot of drugs anyways? How did that go about? And what was it like seeing your experience animated? Well, we interviewed dozens of special operators who had been down to Mexico to do the treatment. And one thing that always comes up after ibogaine is, they describe it like seeing a movie or a slideshow of your life. It's kind of this life review. And we knew right away we had to put that on screen somehow. And we were lucky to work with these incredible animators in England that ended up doing this thing, where you're kind of in the present tense, but you're sort of watching scenes that happened from your life.

6:05 And you're suddenly able to get insight into that kind of psychological perspective that you might have had difficulty getting before the ibogaine. That's really the magic of the drug. Yeah. What was it like seeing your experience animated? Have you even seen the film, Marcus? I haven't. You're in it. You're in it. - Is it good? - No, it's great. No. But I-- I don't watch myself. We worked with Jon-- we worked with Jon and Bonni, who are just incredible awardwinning filmmakers, for years on this. So we were part of the whole process.

6:31 And I think, initially, it was over four hours, and it got cut down. But I think they completely nailed it. I was extremely happy. And it premiered at Telluride. And so the team went to Telluride. And we were so nervous, watching it, because we didn't know what the audience-- how they were going to react. And after the movie was over-- we showed it twice, two standing ovations. And I kind of just put my head in my lap and was just like, oh, you know, like, it was received well. And I think we did and got across the message we were trying to get across.

6:58 The day they came to San Francisco, where we're based, to see the rough cut for the first time was one of the most nervous days of my life. It's so personal, you know? You're putting on screen just the most intimate scenes from these people's lives. But that is what connects about the film, is, I'm sitting on my couch, watching these heroes, these men shedding it and crying and sharing the experiences that we, civilians on the other side-- we prefer to not think about what's actually happening over there. So tremendous job.

7:29 The irony isn't lost on me that American veterans have to go to a different country, not this country, to get help. You've been showing the film for some legislators, right, some state legislators? Tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. You know, as you probably know, the zeitgeist around psychedelics is changing. It's not the 1970s anymore. We realize that these drugs should not be Schedule I, the most dangerous-- It's labeled as Schedule I, which is the most illegal in this country. High ability for abuse with no medical piece to the drug.

8:04 And we're realizing, as Marcus often says, that the opposite is kind of true. There's clearly some value here. And in the film, you see the Stanford team studying ibogaine in particular. But, yes, in Texas, in California, in South Carolina, there's starting to be movements. States are passing laws to funnel money from opioid abatement programs over to ibogaine research because the drug can be so effective with addiction issues. So we're starting to see some movement. And we're hoping the federal government changes laws as well.

8:34 Tell us-- Yeah. Marcus, tell us a little bit about VETS, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions. So when I came back from my treatment, Amber, I saw her immediately. And she could just tell. She just said, I haven't seen this in 20 years. MICHAEL KOSTA: You came back-- - I came back. MICHAEL KOSTA: --from the trip. And your wife said-- She met me. MICHAEL KOSTA: I can tell something's different. She said, I walked around the corner. And she said, like, you could just see this glow. And I wasn't-- I didn't have this dark look anymore.

9:00 And I didn't say I-- Wives man. They are just-- they're always paying attention. I wish we could listen to them a lot earlier, right? But, you know, she's always right. And I didn't say I'm better. We just kind of hug, embraced. And I just said, this is it. This is exactly what the guys need. I said, we just need to figure out a way to pay this forward. And that's what started our work. So your work helps other veterans go down and do this. So I tell everybody, with glue and tape, we put together a nonprofit. We didn't know what we were doing.

9:28 But we wanted to pay it forward, just like it was for me. And we started-- we received our charity status in 2019. And to date now, we've put over 1,200 individuals, fully paid for, for treatment. But we've helped thousands now through the movie and through word of mouth. And so the word's getting out there. What does it cost? And what's the time commitment for something like this? It's quite expensive. We have to have insurance coverage in the future. It's roughly $10,000 to $12,000 per individual. But when you think about what that does for generations, that's like a small-- - I'll tell you what.

9:56 I've definitely spent that on talk therapy. Exactly. Yeah. When you think about an upfront cost versus an expense that goes on for years and years and years, it's actually a relatively cost-effective thing to do. If people are feeling pain, you want them to feel better. And one of the things that was so interesting was, I expected, through some of these medicine, drug experiences, that they would be reliving combat experiences. But for some of the subjects, they almost were reliving childhood trauma that was unrelated.

10:26 That was the big surprise for Bonni and me as we went through this. When we started interviewing folks ahead of time who had done the treatment-- of course, we talked to Marcus and Amber about this-- is that they very often get under the influence of ibogaine, and they are actually reliving experiences that are trauma relived from their childhood. And they're starting to think about, why did I become a soldier in the first place? These are very kind of deep, profound things and the kind of things that might come up in 20 years of talk therapy, right?

10:58 And that was really kind of the big-picture lesson for us, is this is not just a story for veterans. It's a story for so many people who are walking around with trauma in this country and around the world. Excellent film. Thank you for making it. Last question, Marcus-- what advice would you have for a younger Navy SEAL or someone starting out now, entering the path that you-- you've already been down? What would you say? If I had to do it all over again, I would still do it. You know, you still-- many football players have head trauma.

11:28 They still go out and play football because it's your love. It's your passion. It's what you want to do. And I say, go do that. But I say, take care of yourself. If you need to take a pause, take a pause. If you want to go back into fighting, go back into fighting. If you want to get out and do something else, do something else. But, you know, just be mindful of how you feel. Because our systems, they're just not made to go 1,000 RPM consistently. For many, some of my friends, 20 and 30 years, you know, over 15 combat deployments, they're on that red line forever.

11:54 And so sometimes you just need to take a pause. Thank you very much for making the film. Thank you for sharing your story. In Waves and Wars-- available to stream on Netflix. For more information on Marcus's organization, go to vetsolutions.org. Marcus Capone and Jon Shenk.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Marcus Capone & Jon Shenk - “In Waves and War” & Healing Trauma With Psychedelics | The Daily Show"?

Michael Kosta (Guest), Marcus Capone (Guest), Jon Shenk (Guest).

What is "Marcus Capone & Jon Shenk - “In Waves and War” & Healing Trauma With Psychedelics | The Daily Show" about?

Marcus Capone, a former Navy SEAL, shares his journey through the challenges of trauma and failed antidepressant treatments, ultimately leading him to an experimental psychedelic therapy in Mexico. Film director Jon Shenk discusses the motivation behind documenting Capone's transformative experience, highlighting the need for new approaches to mental health treatment, particularly for veterans.

What is mentioned in this The Daily Show episode?

6 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including ibogaine, Marcus Capone, In Waves and Wars, Jon Shenk, VETS, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions, Amber Capone. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Marcus Capone & Jon Shenk - “In Waves and War” & Healing Trauma With Psychedelics | The Daily Show"?

The episode runs 12 min; the transcript is about 2,446 words in 24 timestamped sections.

More from The Daily Show

• All analyzed episodes
• Books mentioned on The Daily Show
• People mentioned on The Daily Show
• Sponsors mentioned on The Daily Show
• Topics mentioned on The Daily Show