Transcript

Winners | This American Life | Episode 872

From This American Life · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 57 min · 9,186 words · 123 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Winners | This American Life | Episode 872", an episode of This American Life published November 3, 2025 (57 min, about 9,186 words). It mentions 14 people, works and ideas, including Sam Busa, Diane Woo, US Stridum, US State Department, Eugene Koa.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Diane Woo
  2. – 10:00: Khan Jafi Wald, Muhammad Ali, Simone Biles, US Stridum
  3. – 20:00: Sam Busa
  4. – 30:00: US Stridum
  5. – 35:00: Sam Busa, US State Department
  6. – 40:00: Sam Busa
  7. – 45:00: Eugene Koa
  8. – 50:00: Americer
  9. – 55:00: Diane Woo, Sam Busa, US State Department

Notable quotes from "Winners | This American Life | Episode 872"

  • I am joined in the studio now by my co-orker Diane Woo. Hey there, Diane.
    about Diane Woo · at
  • Just something that Americans do, but it is such a fundamental thing for so many Americans. It's it's Muhammad Ali and Billy Jin King and Zoran Mdani, but also Donald Trump and…
    about Muhammad Ali · at
  • About it. This particular group of winners is in the news this week, but Khan Jafi Wald has been following the story from the beginning through many turns. You're about to hear…
    about Khan Jafi Wald · at
  • US stridum, fresh-faced, serious Africconer, a white minority in South Africa. US is the leader of a whites only town. Yes, one of those exists.
    about US Stridum · at
  • Sam Busa fuming from her home on the Eastern Cape of South Africa. Quazulu Natal. These big Africana membership groups going to America acting like they're speaking for everyone. Needless.
    about Sam Busa · at
  • Pajamas, smiling, unsure which camera to look at as they were personally welcomed by the deputy secretaries of both the US State Department and the Department of Homeland Security.
    about US State Department · at
  • Africans community cringe. Trevor Noah, South Africa's own on his podcast, asked his friend Eugene Koa about it.
    about Eugene Koa · at
  • Sam continued what she'd been doing, managing the Americer site, preparing people, responding to questions. But America to moving companies, and not a positive thing. Okay. So, people are going to.
    about Americer · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

Companies & orgs

Places & events

  • Orana — Place · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

Okay, so here's something that I learned about myself this last week. Today's show, uh, we're doing a show about winners. And as we talked about this idea here at the radio show, I learned that there is something I apparently say all the time here at our office as we make the show. And I really had no idea I said this at all until a few months ago when somebody on staff pointed this out. And back when that happened, I thought like, sure, yes, I guess I have said that every now and then over the years. Uh, but this week, I learned I had that wrong.

Yeah, you say it all the time. I am joined in the studio now by my co-orker Diane Woo. Hey there, Diane.

Hi, Ira. Um, it's something that I have noticed, but I didn't talk about it with my co-workers until this week. And when I went to them and taped those conversations, uh, everybody knew what I was talking about. Whenever you feel like you're trying to work on a story and you're in your low point, he kind of gives you this look and he's like, "No, you're a winner." You know? You know, like how in Harry Potter they were just like, "You're a wizardry." That's what he kind of does with winners. The thing Ira always says is, "Let's win. We're winners. We're winners. We can do this."

I think when I first started working here like as like an intern basically I can't remember what it was but I told him like I don't think I can do that and he's like that's a loser mentality we're winners and then I remember thinking like oh no I am a winner. I like to win things. I He spoke to something that worked on me.

I can't believe anyone actually feels that way. That's so great for them. It's like a moment when you look around a table and you can see on everybody's faces that they're a little bit that they're tired and they're not feeling like things are going to work out. And then Ira will come in with we got this. This is going to be great. This is going to be so easy. This is going to just be so easy. We know what we have to do. We're winners. We just have to do it. Let's win. Let's win.

I have to say that is so weird to hear everybody talking about that. Mhm. Because I think I just was saying this without thinking, you know, I think that's why I didn't realize I was saying it and how often I was saying it. Like it's not this deeply calculated I must motivate the troops thing. It's just that some part of me just chemically is just feels like come on, let's go.

We're winners. Let's go. Thank you. Um and some people find this really motivating when you do it. Uh but others when you're saying the stuff about winners, it does it just does nothing for them. They just don't get it. Wait, really?

Yeah. They're like, "Why does he keep doing this? What is he talking about? It's terrible. It doesn't do anything but make me angry."

This, of course, is our coworker, Nadia. It made me eye roll and it made me completely be like, I'm not I don't want to do this.

The winner thing also doesn't work for our coworker, Lily. The first times I would hear it, it was like a tell to me. I'm like, "Oh, shoot. I'm not gonna fit here at all. This guy thinks he's a winner. All these people that I don't know very well yet are also apparently winners. Apparently they hire for winners and um and that's that's certainly not me.

Mhm. Cuz I think of winners, people who think of themselves as winners, I'm like you guys are just a bunch of like tryhard nercs, you know, and I'm like not about winning. Like I'm very much like I identify as a loser. I am kind of a loser. I'm a quitter.

Can I just stop the tape? That is such a funny thing to hear somebody say out loud.

I used to play sports like kind of competitively which I think would surprise everyone who knows me. Like I don't seem like someone who would play sports and like how competitive like how intensely were you playing sports? Okay. Well, my team in high school won state in California, my soccer team, which was like a huge deal. That's a huge deal. That's a huge state.

It's a huge state. Um and then I played soccer in college, too. And then one time when I was I guess it was like the first season of um soccer in college and we had to do like a mental some kind of a test to like test how we were mentally some assessment. This was like some kind of personality test to see how mentally tough and competitive you are. And my coach pulled me aside afterward and he was just like, "Just so you know, like everyone in the team other than you was like upper 80s and 90s." He's like, "And your score was like 34.

Your brain is like not wired like the rest of the people on these team." He's like, "You're wired like a grumpy, pessimistic loser." And he's like, "I don't mind." He's like, "But we got a lot of progress to make here." But it just kind of it like told me something about myself at that time. I'm like, I am like that. Why am I here? This is why I don't relate to these people. Do you think that's still you? Yes. And so for years here at the show, she really didn't get it. The winners's thing. But then at some point a couple years in when we were working on that story, it was I think she said it was when we were working on that story about Albertville. Do you remember that one?

Yeah, of course. We were traveling together and spending a lot of hours together, you and me and her and Miki.

Yeah. Like super super long days, right? Um at some point when we were working on that story, she felt it shift like she was so worn down and one day you said it and it just sounded different to her. And now I kind of like it because I feel like I understand now that the idea is more just to like help you gear up for like what's ahead of you. Um, like at one point Ira was just like, "It's like we have to get up a mountain and there are mules who are going to bring us up the mountain and we just have to like encourage these mules to drag us up the mountain, but we're the mules, so we just have to like beat ourselves up this mountain." And I was like, "Yeah, that's exactly what's happening." And it's like it does do something to like give you a burst of um confidence, I guess.

Ladies and gentlemen, I know how corny this idea is and get said in a thousand locker room pep talks and Nike ads and movie speeches before the big climactic whatever, but it is nonetheless true. Deciding you're a winner. Deciding you can do it has a power. It creates possibilities. And deciding your winner isn't just something that Americans do, but it is such a fundamental thing for so many Americans. It's it's Muhammad Ali and Billy Jin King and Zoran Mdani, but also Donald Trump and Simone Biles and Frank Sinatra. And so much of this country was made by outsiders who traveled here. So many of them just deciding and believing that they could succeed here and have a better life. Maybe that's why this mentality is so common here and feels so American. We are the mule. Today in our show, winners, we're going to watch them in action in a tough game where the rules are literally being made up as

they go along. From WBEZ Chicago American Life, stay with us. This American life act one winners welcome. We've done a lot of stories this year about people who were negatively affected in one way or another by big new policies rolled out by the Trump administration. people who've been detained by ICE or who lost government jobs or had their funding cut or been kicked out of the military or found their black student union could no longer be called a black student union. But the story we're about to tell is about other people. People who saw new Trump administration policies who saw one of the hundreds of executive orders that the president has signed and they thought to themselves, "Holy cow, that's great news for me personally." They were targeted by some new policy and happy about it. This particular group of winners is in the news this week, but Khan Jafi Wald has been following the story from the beginning through many

turns. You're about to hear drama, suspense, rivalry. This is a true story about trying to win in 2025 America. Her story begins, as so many do these days, with an announcement from the White House. Here's Kana.

The word went out in February of this year. It was executive order 14204 title addressing egregious actions of the republic of South Africa.

Do you remember where you were? Yeah. So it's actually a funny story. I was um I was I was asleep obviously it was South African time. It was day during the US but night here um and I I woke up and it was like 3:00 in the morning and I saw like a media storm. So um I think I was one of the first Africaners to actually see it. US stridum, fresh-faced, serious Africconer, a white minority in South Africa. US is the leader of a whites only town. Yes, one of those exists. It's all Africconers in the Northern Cape in the desert. It's called Orana.

US grew up there. So, it's 3:00 a.m. and he's reading this executive order from President Trump. It talked about a quote shocking disregard of citizens rights happening in South Africa, unjust discrimination against Africaners. US has been talking about these exact issues, the egregious actions mentioned in the executive order for years. President Trump was using the same words he uses, calling for the same changes. I I mean, we could all almost not believe our eyes when we saw uh you know, the the president of the mightiest country in the in the world mentioning us specifically.

It sounds like you go to like a like a rock concert and your favorite band up there is like, "Happy birthday, Billy." And you're like, "Oh my god, I'm Billy."

Yes. It's basically that feeling. An incredible win. A high. And then suddenly a bit of a crash. A few sentences later in the executive order US saw the order's solution to address this unjust targeting of Africconers was for the United States to resettle quote Africas discrimination end quote.

So that was I think it was for all of us a big big big surprise. refugees, US thought, as in leave the country. He didn't want to leave the country. He wanted President Trump to help Africaners get their own territory in Africa. And he wanted President Trump to pressure the South African government to get rid of what he sees as racist laws against white people. He was not looking to come to the US and become American.

Africaners belong in Africa. Uh um so it's kind of um we don't want to be refugees. We want to be here. We are African. We belong here. The Africaners are a specific group with a proud history.

The history that you may know about Africconers is that they invented a partaid. That for nearly half a century, Africconers maintained a brutal and violent system of racial segregation in South Africa that denied black South Africans political and economic power. The right to vote, the right to own land, to equal housing, education, wages, to move freely, speak freely and choose where to live, to run businesses. US is referring to the Africconer history before all of that. The mostly Dutch settlers who came to South Africa and became Africconers more than three centuries ago, set up farms, fought the British.

We moved away from British occupation with oxen wagon and that we are farming people. We are people of of the open felt. We've modernized our language. We did the first heart transplant and so on. And now all of that's taken away. Uh we have no political say. We have we have no place.

When South Africa became a democracy after a partaid in 1994, it was one of the few countries in the world that was trying to build a democracy with lots of different people, different races, religions with 11 official national languages. The new South Africa branded itself the rainbow nation. Rainbowism emphasized unity and west felt the Africconer identity was shoved aside and threatened. Africconers were expected to be just South African.

The issue is with with African is we're a very small minority in a very large country. Just demographic realities being such a minority that we have so little influence politically and economically. um you know who's going to call the shots. It's always the majority and minorities it's trampled on.

A word on the trampling of white South Africans. They own nearly three times the farmland of black South Africans and hold more than 60% of the top corporate jobs in South Africa while being around 7% of the population. There was no massive wealth or land redistribution after a partaid fell. Instead, the government has adopted various policies to try to rectify vast racial imbalances in employment, education, resources, everything over time, bit by bit. These were various affirmative action type efforts like requiring companies to diversify their shareholders and recently a new land reform law that would allow the government in rare cases to take property without compensation.

That's the trampling US is talking about. And President Trump's executive order is talking about the only problem for us with the executive order was that whole refugee bit

and I gathered some of the decision makers in our community and we decided to immediately react to this. So we had a very very serious conversation. We understood it as a watershed moment and we said well we're going to give a very simple message uh that we will put on social media hoping to reach the Trump administration with that. Um and our message was basically um uh firstly firstly thank you uh and secondly um we appreciate it but then we don't want to be refugees in another man's country. We have a three-word message for President Trump and that is rather help us here and help us here became became our slogan.

The two big Africana advocacy groups in South Africa were on the same page. Thank you. You see us and our plight and no thank you on that whole refugee part. Help us here. US went with the delegation of Afrey Connors to America to lobby in DC and New York and the message seemed to land. They made international headlines. No thanks. White South Africans turned down Trump's US immigration offer. Afrey Connor communities reject Trump's resettlement offer.

We were mortified. You were what? Mortified. Mortified. Mortified. Because hold on a minute. We don't want President Trump to take this away because we apparently said no thank you. We don't say no thank you. We accept.

Sam Busa fuming from her home on the Eastern Cape of South Africa. Quazulu Natal. These big Africana membership groups going to America acting like they're speaking for everyone. Needless to say, the people that were not their members and did not think that way became very angry and then they all found me. US efforts might have been the end of things except for Sam popped up. She saw that executive order and Sam had different ideas for what to do with it. Sam is 60 years old, semi-retired businesswoman white constitutionally busy. She is rarely doing one thing at a time. I'm going to put the kettle on while I'm talking to you. Perfect.

And have a tea break. Wonderful. Yes. She told me the story. There I was happily getting on with my organic gardening at the beginning of February 2025.

Mhm. And out of the blue came this executive order to everybody's shock and surprise. Let's be honest. So I immediately thought myself, I'm I'm I'm all for this. But still the idea of refugee was a bit of a shock. Did you think like refugees? Like that's not a word that I would guess you had associated with yourself before.

No, no, no. It was actually a horrifying word. You know what the word refugee conjures up is raggedy people that have run across a border um that are escaping a war zone and um and and are sort of hiding under a tree um waiting for a a helicopter to rescue them. you know that that's what it conjures, doesn't it?

And um so so it was totally foreign to me and I looked at this and I thought, "Wow, the word refugee was totally foreign to Sam just like it was to us." But Sam still felt sure the executive order was intended for her and she wanted it to be for her. Sam wanted to move to America. She was convinced there was no future for her young adult sons in South Africa, that the country was too dangerous, and that as white men they'd be discriminated against and unable to succeed. So, this seemed like a great opportunity if she could figure it out. This executive order, like most of the 200 plus executive orders that have come out this year, it's not a detailed document. It's two pages. It's a broad announcement that injustice is happening in South Africa. Africconers are the victims and they're invited to be refugees in America.

What it does not say is how this will work. How many people, who qualifies, how to apply, how do these particular people fit within the existing laws that govern the refugee program? How will they get through the vetting process? It leaves all those details to be sorted out at some other time by someone else. Sam took it upon herself to be that someone. The first thing to tackle was that word refugee. Sam was not a refugee. Or was she? Could she possibly be one?

You know, after 40 years in business, I've got a pretty decent knowledge of legal stuff. So I just went uh and and looked in the obvious places like okay so who runs refugee program so it's okay so it's PRM okay who else is involved oh USCIS went on their websites and tried to understand the difference between refugees and asileles [sighs] but it didn't take me very long I was quite obsessed a key thing Sam wanted to know could she qualify as a refugee if she hadn't fled the country in all the government websites she went to The answer seemed pretty straightforward.

No. A refugee is someone who is living outside any country of such person's nationality. Refugees are people who flee. Sam was living at home in her home country. But then she found a section of immigration law 101a42b which allows a refugee to be in country under special circumstances specified by the president. Aha. this is how President Trump could do it, maybe she could qualify.

It became apparent to me that, you know, there are many types of refugee programs and that it it it wouldn't be a case of um expecting South Africans to to you know, literally go into FEMA tents or anything like that. It became pretty clear to me that these things can be rather dignified and quite orderly. This was her first stab at interpreting the language in the executive order, figuring out how she could fit the word refugee legally and comfortably. Next, the executive order uses the words quote unjust racial discrimination. It says for the victims of discrimination.

Sam was confident her family qualified for that. She says specifically, "Her young adult sons have been denied or would be denied jobs in South Africa because they're white." But if Sam went to the officials who screen refugee applications to America, she wasn't sure discrimination would actually be enough to qualify as a refugee. She read the main law governing US immigration, the Immigration and Nationality Act. And the word discrimination is not used in in in dealing with refugees around the world. They never used the word discrimination.

Yet, President Trump used the word discrimination. Um quite possibly the word discrimination in the executive order probably wasn't the his best choice of word. I think he probably meant to say persecution.

Uhhuh. Because persecution is required. Another puzzle for Sam to figure out. Meanwhile,

I decided to put up a little website, questions and answers. And then whatever my findings are, let me share those with my fellow citizens. Okay. I came across the word American, which I thought was cute as anything. American is Africants for Americans. She registered the domain and set up a Facebook page. This became a hub for other white South Africans who'd heard about the executive order. So we started disseminating what we in our in our personal capacity had investigated and obviously there were lots of I don't knows that went with all of that. So I don't want to give anybody the opinion that somehow we knew

what were what were the lot of the like repeat questions or most common you know one of the most difficult ones was um they say Africanas now in South Africa you're American you don't understand the nuance of the cultures in South Africa so half of the population is English speakaking of the white population is English speakaking so all of the folks like myself with that's of British descent was thinking, "Oh, no. They're just going to take the Africaners and not me, the Englishman." You know,

you're not Africana. Pause. This was surprising to me. Sam was running a website for people interested in Trump's offer to Africaners. Africaners are generally descended from Dutch settlers, speak Africants as their first language. white South Africans who are not Africconers, generally English ancestry. We were 20 minutes into talking. It hadn't actually occurred to me to ask if she indeed was Africconer. She's not. But this was another spot where the word in the executive order did not precisely fit Sam until Sam figured out how it could fit.

But the but the truth is these groups have mixed intermingled across hundreds of years. So to prove one person is an Africana and the other doesn't have any Africana is almost impossible without genealogies for everybody. So so we did make a deduction. I'm sure as an English person you'll be included. But we always had to put a disclaimer on that because we just don't know what does an American think the word Africana means. So you thought okay they might mean only Africconers meaning strictly Africconor background ancestry speaks Africans they might mean somebody who lives on a farm they might just mean white people in South Africa correct

you know so I cautiously told everybody that it was my opinion that it included all South Africans English and Africans

oh wait South Africans but I was only 95 % sure. Almost everyone who came to the American Facebook page had the same question Sam had. Do I qualify to go to the US under this executive order? Here's a comment. Not a funny or rude question. Just want to know what criteria is acceptable candidate. How bad does your experience need to be? Another. How will the USA decide if I'm suitable? I'm white, Africants, male, hardworking with strong Christian beliefs in a country where I'm prosecuted for my skin color, my language, my beliefs. Does that make me quote suitable? Or must I first be shot and stabbed?

There were other questions, too. I'm 56. Aren't I too old? Or, you know, am I allowed to bring my dogs? And is it just for farmers? Because a lot of people were talking about the farmers all the time. President Trump's also mentioned a lot about farmers. [clears throat]

What about a farmer? Okay, so myself and and one of the volunteers did is we analyzed every single word that had been said by the president and the uh um uh state department beyond the executive order. the so the fact sheet that was put out as well as the FAQs that were put out.

But what we were saying to people is look a refugee program in general does not discriminate and whether you all you know whether you're 90 or you're two if you're in peril. Refugee programs are accepting of any human being in peril. Um so those that sort of deduction we were able to make and answer lots of questions. Can you bring your dogs? No. Well, you can, but you'll do that privately out of your own pocket. But the refugee program is not inviting your pets.

This is the level of detail Sam was helping people to think through. One problem she still had to solve, the question of persecution. To qualify as a refugee, one must be able to articulate a past experience of persecution or fear of future persecution.

Yeah. Well, I've had some events in my life which I would I would struggle to to classify as persecution. Um, so my past persecution um records are somewhat scant. They barely make the persecution grade. Okay. So they they would rise to severe discrimination. So I've look I've been held at gunpoint with my baby in arms. Okay. But that I can't say that that's persecution. What I can say is that's just terrible crime.

South Africa does have terrible crime. Crime that is experienced by every demographic group. But Sam looked at the precise definition.

You can either talk about something that's happened to you that was persecution

or you can talk about so it's and or you can talk about your fear of future persecution. This became a big topic in the American honors group. What counts as future persecution? In the various group chats and on the Facebook page, there was one video that got passed around often as potential evidence. It's a video of a black politician from a minority party in South Africa leading a chant called kill the boar at a political rally. Boore farmers in Africants. Kill the boar is an old anti-aparted chant. Africana groups say it's clearly intended to incite violence and the lyrics are pretty stark. Kill the boar, the farmer. There have been several court cases about the use of the song over the years. Most recently, in an appeal, the judge at the constitutional court wrote that a reasonably well-informed person would understand that the politician was using a historic struggle song as a provocative way to advance a political

agenda. It was a form of political speech and therefore protected under the country's freedom of speech laws. Elon Musk posted the video on X Musk South Africanborn wrote they are openly pushing for a genocide of white people in South Africa.

So my fear of future persecution and and future violence is is way greater than my history. My fear of future persecution is is basically being being skinned alive in a genocide. I mean, it's uh you've got government ministers and the constitutional court um endor well or not endorsing but allowing uh saying that that they're entitled to call for the death of white people in South Africa. And then you've got the government that is completely silent on them calling for the death of white South Africans. So if if if that's not persecution, I don't know what is.

Sam had made it through each tricky word in the executive order. Refugee, Africana, discrimination. She'd interpreted the order and translated it and figured out how it would work, how it was legal, and who could qualify. Her and all the other like-minded people she'd organized into a group through her website. 6 weeks after the executive order came out, Sam wrote her own message to President Trump. US Stridum's communicate had a polite three-point summary. Sam's did too, but her message was very different. Sam says hers was signed by 27,000 people in 2 weeks.

So, the memorandum said three things. Thank you. We appreciate what you've done by reaching out and extending this offer. Number two, we accept your offer. And number three, we will come to contribute, not to drain.

The American delivered their memorandum to the US embassy in Ptoria. And Sam posted a photo to the Facebook page. She wrote, "We've gathered. We've organized. We've collaborated. We've spoken. We've succeeded." The first group of white South Africans granted refugee status by the Trump administration arrived in the US Monday. The

United States has welcomed around 50 white South Africans following President May 12th, 2025. 59 white South Africans.

Sam Busa was not one of them. She was watching from South Africa. While Sam was organizing American, the US government had been rapidly putting together a small group of South African refugees, bringing them over on a private chartered plane to Dallas airport. At Delos, they stood in a loosely arranged line holding small American flags, their children in pajamas, smiling, unsure which camera to look at as they were personally welcomed by the deputy secretaries of both the US State Department and the Department of Homeland Security.

Welcome. Welcome to the United States of America. It makes me so happy to see you with our flag in your hands and that flag symbolizes liberty. uh for so many of us. But I want you all to know that you are really welcome here and that we respect what you have had to deal with these last few years. We respect the long tradition of your people uh and what you have accomplished over the years and I am sure that you will be successful. everybody uh with NDHS, we've been so excited to be able to get you guys here after all the I I was tracking your flight 12 hours that you were last night. I'm like, "Oh my god."

So, thank you uh for just the patience of being able to get here. We just were so grateful. I think Chris and I both just wanted to come and make sure that we greet you guys, we meet you, give our contact information to you, and if there's anything that we could do. I've looked at the photos of this press conference so many times, zoomed in on every detail, just trying to make my brain take in this picture, this photo op, and everything that it means about America and about South Africa. Those two countries have always played off each other in my mind. My parents grew up in South Africa. I grew up in America watching South Africa. It's where our family was. And South Africa has always been a symbol In my lifetime, it was a global pariah boycotted by everyone and then apartheid fell and South Africa became a model of justice and reconciliation.

American leaders tripped over themselves to celebrate the new South Africa, practically deified Nelson Mandela. Photos of President Clinton applauding as Mandela and then President A clerk shook hands and Clinton quote thrilled at the peaceful election process and national unity. photos of Mandela winning the Congressional Gold Medal. N Gingrich on one side, President Clinton on the other. America was eager to share in the symbolism of this new multi-racial democracy because it added some nice shine to our own. Their story was our story and their redemption ours.

Their success was ours, too. Now, these photos of Africconer refugees in the Dulles airport, this is a new kind of symbolism, a new way for America to use South Africa to say something about ourselves. In these photos, South Africa is not an inspiring symbol of multi-racial democracy anymore. That story is over. The photos are like a reset. South Africa is a cautionary tale. It's a DEI nation. A place where white people can no longer be safe. Where the tables have turned, where they've gone too far. This is where efforts toward equality lead us. A rainbow nation only ends in disaster.

And the photo app communicates something else, too. It says, "Look, this is our new refugee policy."

Well, because what what's happening in South Africa fits the textbook definition of why the refugee program was created. Steven Miller, presidential adviser, seems to be the guy coming up with our immigration policy. The Trump administration suspended refugee admissions to the United States. It was one of the president's first executive orders on his first day in office. Refugees waiting in camps all over the world, sometimes for generations, were cut off.

Most refugees wait years for the chance to be vetted, to possibly get a chance to come to the United States. These South Africans arrived in three months.

The refugee program is not intended as a solution for global poverty and historically it has been used that way.

This is not true. For instance, 12,000 refugees had already been approved to resettle in America when the Africconers arrived. They were approved meaning they'd been through the security clearance, the health check, background check interviews and were arranging their travel to the US. Some of them already had flights booked. Those 12,000 people were approved not because they were fleeing poverty. They were fleeing war, religious persecution, political persecution. Congalles families who fled to Rwanda after their neighbors were killed. Rohingya from Myanmar who were fleeing kidnappings, rape, and genocide. Some Afghans who supported US troops in America's war effort.

Those people, Miller is saying, are not the textbook refugees. These are. After the photo op back in May, two different schools of thought emerged about what was going to happen next. This is a fancy way of saying Sam and I disagreed. We are the schools of thought. I figured after seeing those photos and videos of the new South African refugees, I figured that's probably it for the whole alleged refugee program. It's pretty effective symbolism. I think they got what they wanted. The Trump administration has a lot of other goals to pursue. They're not likely going to bother building a whole program to bring over more people like Sam.

Sam back in South Africa had gotten in her application for resettlement to the US and was waiting with her thousands of Americaners and she had a different thought.

I have absolutely no doubt. Sam says she'd read everything everyone was saying, everything every person in the administration adjacent to the administration.

They're all very intent on, okay, well, this is just the pilot project. We're going to ramp things up now. I have no doubt that that that's where it's going.

She had no doubt. I had some doubt. One of us was right. Hana Joffy Walt. Coming up, secret moving companies and a joke about cars. That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues. This is American Live from Ira Glass. Today's program, winners, people who decide I can make this happen as the first step to making it happen. If you're just tuning in, we're in the middle of Khanafi Walt's story about America Connors, white South Africans who want to come to the United States as refugees. Where we left off, the United States had brought over a small group of 59 of them. And back in South Africa, Sam Busa had organized thousands of others who were waiting, hoping the United States was about to ramp up a big program for them. Here's Hana.

From the moment the 59 South Africans landed in the US, Sam's life was transformed. She was inundated with phone calls, emails.

I'm working 20our days, so I'm frazzled, so I'll try and focus. Everyone who had applied but had not been included in that first small group that went to America wanted to know what this meant. Would they get a call soon? Had Americers heard anything? Reporters wanted to know what is Americor? How many are you? Who are you? And Americans who saw the news on X or Ben Shapiro or Megan Kelly wanted to send their support.

We've had actually had a fantastically loving response from America. In truth, I can't tell you how many hundreds and hundreds of Americans have reached out to us in our little group [snorts] by email on our ex feeds all over the place coming forward giving the most unbelievable testimony of how, you know, how excited they are to have us there and people offering help and not money. No, not at all. Nobody's nobody's exchanged a scent.

And who's what? Tell me about what are people saying and who are they? A lot of people just saying, "Hey, I'm in Alabama or I'm in Utah or whatever." Um, I've got a farm here and I'd be happy to. Um, I've got a cottage if somebody wants to stay here for 2 months. I can give two months accommodation. Or there are people saying, "Hey, I've got a lot of contacts in business or I'm involved with the church or whatever." Whoever that's whoever's coming to Florida, put them in touch with me. I've got lots of contacts. I can probably hook them up.

Sam responds to each person who reaches out and tells them, "We don't have anyone for you yet, but as soon as they ramp up this program, we'll be in touch. Thank you so much.

We are so excited to join your society. I can't explain." And then she puts their name, the state they're from, and contact information into a spreadsheet for the future. Sam said there were 70,000 people interested in going to America.

Oh, yeah. No, we're all coming over. Yeah, we'll see you soon. Wow. On our way around the corner,

maybe. But in the meantime, they were still living in South Africa. And their fellow countrymen also saw all the photos from Washington and the press conferences from the White House about persecution, targeting, and murder of white South Africans. South Africans were not as a whole happy about this. The government spent weeks repeating, "There is no persecution. Crime in South Africa affects everyone irrespective of race." South African President Sarah Ramaposa called the South Africans who left for the US cowards.

When you run away, you're a coward and that's a real cowardly act. Which made news. Ramapora claimed these individuals were unwilling to support the country's efforts to correct historic inequities left by a party. A populist political party made a show of filing a criminal complaint against one of the Africconer lobbying groups, calling them treasonous for spreading lies to the United States in order to influence President Trump. Reactions from regular South Africans ranged from confusion like this Africconer interviewed by Reuters.

Why would you want to go with the people of getting on like normal and uh you know what are you going to do over there?

To mockery. Here's a white comedian on Tik Tok talking to a black comedian. I turned on the TV the other night and I hear from Donald Trump and Elon Musk that you've been planning a genocide. The black comedian sitting next to him says, "Oh yeah, we're killing every day."

Like I was actually playing paddle today and I thought to myself, "Goodness gracious, we are not killing fast enough."

And there were lots of angry South Africans on social media. You are not refugees. You're not brave. You're not victims. You're scared of a world where you don't get to be in charge. And that makes the rest of the Africans community cringe. Trevor Noah, South Africa's own on his podcast, asked his friend Eugene Koa about it.

When was when was the first time you ever heard about like white genocide in South Africa?

It was this year. It was when everyone caught on to it. I almost felt like I was part of living in another country cuz I looked outside and I was like,

"That's crazy. Where is this thing happening?" And I checked on my neighbor. She was fine.

The arrival of white South Africans in America was enough of a national spectacle, an in joke, that some advertisers got in on it. For instance, a car commercial where a bunch of white men in jeeps pull up outside a black man's house, wake him up, revving their engines. The man comes out of his house in his robe saying, "What's going on?" And the white men yell, "You haven't heard?

You haven't heard? We've got refuge status baby." Refuge. They rev the engines more. The black man walks over to one of them.

Can I give it a go? No. Apparently, it's just for us. These jokes and comments, they were coming from people who all went through something together not that long ago. The end of apartade, the transition to democracy, a process that was painstakingly designed to happen peacefully, to take white South Africans worries into account and to keep them in the fold. Nobody gave up land or wealth. Nobody tore down institutions. So much of that went unchanged. On Trevor Noah's podcast, his friend, comedian Eugene Koa, says the white refugee thing has him thinking back to that time after a parted fell and how quickly black South Africans were asked to move to reconciliation.

While white South Africans still held so much power over day-to-day life, we had to make nice very, very quickly. As soon as that ended, you had to be nice to the school governing body for your child to enter that school. You had to be nice to show that you're not like that kind of a crime in an estate, in a housing community, in a you know, you had to we had to be nice. So the ones that could played nice to be in those communities. The ones that couldn't afford played nice to work in those communities. I think South Africa became um a postage child for diplomacy. We almost had to as a country put our best foot forward.

Everyone moves forward. That was the whole agreement of postapartate South Africa. The white people who used to have all the power and now only had some of the power would accept things and move forward. And black South Africans who used to have no power and now had a little more would agree to forgive the architects of apartade and just move forward. Nobody looks back. Nobody complains. We all just get on with [clears throat] building the country together. The white South Africans who wanted to be refugees in America, they were breaking that agreement.

We're a very, very hated class in South Africa right now. Hated, hated, hated. Sam continued what she'd been doing, managing the Americer site, preparing people, responding to questions. But America to moving companies, and not a positive thing. Okay. So, people are going to want to move to send some boxes, you know, with with granny's keepsakes in it and whatever. You know, they might leave their furniture behind, but most families will want to take a box or two. So, I set out to speak to all the removals companies that can do international removals to America in South Africa.

Strangely enough, which actually shocked me, quite a few of them said, "Oh, I don't want anything to do with you refugees. Put the phone down in my ear." And if

Wait, Sam, had you experienced that before? Like, was that shocking to you? Totally. Yeah. It's almost like we're sort of secondass citizens now or something like that

anyway. So um or or that they don't want to be seen by the people who are staying to be supportive of the refugee program. And [snorts] those that wanted to help also didn't want their logos anywhere on publicly because they thought they would be subject to attack.

Mhm. So I couldn't I couldn't advertise somebody's company on my website and say, "Hey, these guys will offer a good deal." And show a banner with their logo on it. So she figured out a workaround. On her website, Sam put a tab called packing up an essay. On the right hand side of that page, I have a little form so you can put your info in as a refugee. And then there are secret pe secret people that are that like the refugees that are willing to help them in the background that get an email when you fill in that form. They privately quote the refugee on transporting goods. So, I've got this like secret intro service.

We don't charge for it at all whatsoever, but it's kind of like an underground thing. So, we've got that for all sorts of services like, you know, uh uh financial advice for for people needing to get their pension money out of the country and that kind of thing. We've got it for we doing we're busy with selling cars now. If you're putting your property on the market, but yeah, we're not very wellliked. So, so it's so ironic. If we weren't persecuted before, we certainly are now. So, it's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Extend the executive order, extend the offer for refugee program, and then also spark a bit of a race war as a result. Did you feel like identified with other white people in South Africa in this way before?

No. No. No. This is a completely new phenomenon for all of us. We I don't think a group has ever be been so tight-knit as this group is in this country ever. In fact, I I think it's it's akin to your MAGA on a very tiny scale. You know that feeling of that those people that that group together and would have TPUSA and all those sort of things going on and they would all flock to the rallies and whatever and that vibe is that that spark of excitement. Well, we we've got the same thing going on here on a much smaller scale. It's actually quite sweet.

I had been focused on whether large numbers of South Africans would be allowed to come to the US. I hadn't imagined just how much the possibility of them coming here would change their lives even if they never left.

I've made so many new friends. So many new friends. 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. I live, eat, sleep, and breathe. What's going on here? Do you feel like it's a big part of your identity now that you're an American or that you're part of this group that's eligible for this program?

Totally. I'm loving it. I'll be honest. It's given me a newound purpose. I feel very um honored and privileged to have made a difference. You know, it's like you take something on and it actually works. A few weeks ago, 7 months after the executive order, I got a text from Sam. I can't chat to anyone in the media at the moment. I went to the American website and it had changed. It now said, "Americers is an official referral partner for the US refugees admissions program." Sam couldn't talk to me anymore because she was now officially working with the US State Department. Americ was helping the US government identify eligible refugees to the United States.

Sam was right and I was wrong. The US government is processing refugee applicants in Ptoria right now at record speeds. I'm hearing people are being processed within weeks. Everything about the way the program is structured, it's the way Sam imagined it would go. To qualify, you do not need to be Africconner. You have to be from a racial minority population in South Africa, i.e. everyone except black people. You do not need to provide documentation of past persecution. The chant kill the boar qualifies as credible fear of future persecution.

And you do not have to flee as other refugees do. You can be processed for resettlement from your home. I haven't talked to Sam in a while now. I'm not even sure where she is. Is she here or there? I do know from talking to her before a little bit about what she pictures her life here will be like. Where in the States will you go? Do you know? Well, well, you know, we're not sure where we would initially be re relocated to, but I'm keen on North Carolina myself.

Why? Where are you based in New York? I don't know. I've got this ponchon for [snorts] mountains and I'm thinking if I go way into western North Carolina, I'm sure where that's the Appalachian. And I'm thinking that'll suit. So, if I sell my little household goodies and my car and my whatever, um, you know, I'm going to go with this tiny wallet with a few dollars in it and and then it's then we hit the ground running. We've got to get ourselves working and doing all sorts of amazing things to to earn a living when we get there, you know. So, we'll do that as a team, me and my boys.

A new American archetype. I think about Sam Busa this way now. And I think of her often. Every week, every few days, the president puts out a big declaration, a broad intention of things he'd like to see in the world, an executive order on paper straws or a rant against Tylenol, the Riviera of the Middle East. And it becomes the job of the people who work for the president to figure out the practical details of if and how these things could actually happen. But then there are also people like Sam, an ordinary person who's not in the government, but who is tireless, skilled, and paying attention. Someone with the confidence to say, "I think this is what you mean here." Right? When the administration issued this executive order in February, this wasn't the plan.

They didn't know Sam was out there. She didn't know they were going to do this. But once the opportunity existed, there was Sam willing to work with what was there to make this a reality to turn it into a win.

Hana Jafi Walt is one of the producers of our show. Nancy Opike edited her story. Just this week, the Trump administration published its official number of how many refugees the United States is going to take in the next year. The number is 7,500, a record low. And usually that number is for people from all over the world. This year it'll mostly just be South Africans.

is [singing] moving. It's moving me up. Moving. It's moving [singing] me up. Every step is moving [singing] me up. World programmers produced today by Nancy Updike, Diane Woo, and Khan Joffy Wald. The people who put together today's show include Fia Bennon, Michael Kamatee, Aviva Dornfeld, Suzanne Gabber, Sophie Gil, Katherine Rayondo, Stone Nelson, Nadia Raymond, Ryan Rury, Francis Swanson, Christopher Satala, and Julie Whitaker. Our managing editors Sara Abdammen, our senior editors, David Castbalam. Our executive editor is Emanuel Barry. Special thanks today to Adrienne Almond, Angel Herd, Lania Crew, Deandra Norman, John Nelson, Sand Delay Swani, Timothy Young and International Refuge, Chris George, Brian Khan, Sarah Jaffy, and Geraldine Eiffel. This American Live is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange. A reminder that if you like our show, if you listen to

us a lot, please consider signing up as a This American Life partner. Do it for the stuff you get or do it simply because you want us to be able to keep making the show. Join at thisamericanlife.org/lifeepartners. Thanks this week to Life Partners Roland Moore, Mark Kim, Christine Woodhouse, and Ross Buché. Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Tory Malatia, who for some reason always gets lots of questions from people this time of year about trick-or-treating.

I'm 56. Aren't I too old? Or, you know, am I allowed to bring my dogs? I remember Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American life. Each step is moving. [singing] It's moving me up. Moving. It's moving me up. Every step is moving me up. I'm so moving up. Moving me up. Moving me [singing] up. Oh my one tiny tiny tiny move.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Winners | This American Life | Episode 872"?

In order: 0:00 Diane Woo; 5:00 Khan Jafi Wald, Muhammad Ali, Simone Biles, US Stridum; 15:00 Sam Busa; 25:00 US Stridum; 30:00 Sam Busa, US State Department; 35:00 Sam Busa; 40:00 Eugene Koa; 45:00 Americer; 50:00 Diane Woo, Sam Busa, US State Department.

What is mentioned in this This American Life episode?

14 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Sam Busa, Diane Woo, US Stridum, US State Department, Eugene Koa, Muhammad Ali. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Winners | This American Life | Episode 872"?

The episode runs 57 min; the transcript is about 9,186 words in 123 timestamped sections.

More from This American Life

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.