The Truth About Loneliness and Burnout with Dr. Guy Winch

What this episode is about

The main topic is understanding how stress, burnout, loneliness, and rejection affect mental health across work and home, and translating psychological science into practical, actionable tools to cope and improve relationships and self-esteem. It highlights Guy Winch’s focus on overcoming burnout and work-related stress with accessible strategies.

Key takeaways

• Emotional health requires proactive hygiene; neglecting it spreads harm beyond the screen of burnout into daily life.
• Burnout isn’t bravery; it’s a costed engine failing when you skip rest, mirroring physical fatigue.
• Ruminating feels purposeful but wastes energy; actionable coping turns rumination into targeted, constructive outcomes.
• Psychological first aid exists; treat rejection and stress like wounds with science-backed steps, not vibes.
• The missing link: everyday mental health tools, not mega-yoga slams—small, consistent practices beat rare bursts.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Tommy Mello (Host) · 13 min speaking
• Dr. Guy Winch (Guest) · 34 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Burnout, stress, Loneliness, mental health
2. 5:00 – 10:00: stress, Burnout, cognitive abilities, Work-Life Balance
3. 10:00 – 15:00: Burnout, Work-Life Balance, Time Management
4. 15:00 – 20:00: gratitude, emotional health
5. 20:00 – 25:00: gratitude, Guy Winch, Mind Over Grind, Time Management
6. 25:00 – 30:00: Mind Over Grind
7. 30:00 – 35:00: Loneliness, Artificial Intelligence, Elon Musk, Social Media
8. 35:00 – 40:00: Social Media, Self-esteem, Loneliness, emotional injuries
9. 40:00 – 45:00: Mind Over Grind, Psychology, Social Media, Nature versus nurture

Notable quotes from "The Truth About Loneliness and Burnout with Dr. Guy Winch"

• Guy Winch is a renowned psychologist, bestselling author, and leading voice in the science of emotional health. His three TED talks have been viewed over 35 million times, helping to bring mental health into mainstream conversation. Get.

  about emotional health · at 0:16

• Welcome to the Mellow Millionaire.

  about Guy Winch · at 1:07

• And you coin the terms emotional hygiene and psychological first aid. What does that mean exactly?

  about emotional hygiene · at 3:38

• Conflict with their partner, and they're likely to infect their partner with that stress. So much so that their partner can start developing symptoms of burnout just from the…

  about Burnout · at 7:29

• This tension and for that conflict and for this pressure. Your body is, has cortisol going through it.

  about stress · at 8:54

• Partnership, time for friends, t that's what life is about in the work life balance, right? The life part. So when you block it out on your calendar, it's protected. It means…

  about Time Management · at 10:52

• What is your biggest professional dream at the moment for me? well, look, I have this book that just is just coming out, Mind Over Grind, and I think it could be a real gamecher for people in the workplace, cuz I think it could really.

  about Mind Over Grind · at 28:47

• Haven't reached out to them either and so there's a certain trap in which people who are lonely actually withdraw from people rather than go after them what I think you know…

  about Loneliness · at 34:36

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Guy Winch — Person · Main guest · 3 mentions · first at 0:16
  He explains how stress and burnout compound across work and home, and offers practical, science-based tools for emotional health, including concepts like emotional hygiene and psychological first aid.
• Elon Musk — Person · Referenced public figure · 2 mentions · first at 31:18
  He is cited for a prediction about robot-to-human ratios, used to frame AI-driven displacement and societal change.
  Much you've studied and on this subject, but what are your thoughts here? we're not talking long. He's Elon Musk said in 10 years there'll be 10 to one robots to each human.
• Victor Frankl — Person · Referenced expert · 1 mention
  He is referenced via his book on meaning to support the discussion that purpose and meaning remain essential even after financial success or retirement.
  There's a great book Victor Frankle a man's search for meaning and we still need meaning. And I think sometimes when you retire, well, I don't know how to retire. I don't even know what that even.

Books & papers

• Mind Over Grind — Book · Primary referenced work · 4 mentions · first at 23:49
  The episode repeatedly references this new book as the container for Winch's workplace stress/burnout framework and practical exercises (e.g., ADHD blind spots, email boundaries).
• The Squeaky Wheel — Book · Referenced prior work · 1 mention · first at 0:51
  It is cited as Winch's best-selling book teaching healthy coping with stress, relationship improvement, and self-esteem—supporting his credibility and toolkit approach.
  Overcoming rejection, failure, burnout, loneliness, and work-related stress. His best-selling book, The Squeaky Wheel, teaches us about healthy ways to cope with stress, to…

Companies & orgs

• TED — Organization · Platform (referenced) · 2 mentions · first at 0:24
  TED is referenced as the distribution channel for Winch's talks, used to establish reach and impact in mainstreaming mental health conversations.
  The science of emotional health. His three TED talks have been viewed over 35 million times, helping to bring mental health into mainstream conversation. Get him off the heartbreak is not a journey, it's a fight.

Concepts & topics

• stress — Concept · Core topic · 9 mentions · first at 0:00
  Stress is framed as a multiplying force that ping-pongs between work and home, driving conflict, fatigue, and increased burnout risk unless managed across contexts.
• Burnout — Concept · Core topic · 8 mentions · first at 0:47
  Burnout is described as epidemic-level and fueled by chronic stress, fatigue, and poor boundaries; Winch argues awareness is rising but outcomes worsen due to stress mismanagement at home and work.
• emotional health — Concept · Core topic · 3 mentions · first at 0:18
  Emotional health is positioned as needing daily maintenance (like dental hygiene) and as essential to sustainable performance, relationships, and resilience against stress and burnout.
• Work-Life Balance — Concept · Core topic · 2 mentions · first at 6:53
  Work-life balance is described as increasingly recognized yet poorly executed; Winch argues stress must be managed at home and work to stop a reinforcing cycle.
  Stress at work that makes it in ways that make it worse and then we take it home. So that stress keeps pingponging back from our personal lives to our work life. There's…
• Loneliness — Concept · Core topic · 7 mentions · first at 0:49
  Loneliness is presented as a dangerous chronic condition with major health risks, worsened by social media and withdrawal/cynicism cycles that distort perception and reduce connection.
• emotional hygiene — Concept · Core framework · 2 mentions · first at 3:38
  Winch uses emotional hygiene to argue for daily, preventive psychological practices analogous to brushing teeth—normalizing routine care for emotional well-being.
• Time Management — Concept · Core topic · 2 mentions · first at 10:18
  Time management is presented as a protective mechanism against burnout (calendar blocking, boundaries, external structures), especially important for ADHD-related blind spots.
• gratitude — Concept · Actionable tool · 6 mentions · first at 17:46
  Gratitude is presented as evidence-based but often misapplied; Winch emphasizes elaboration and emotional activation (and gratitude letters) rather than mere listing.
  In my life. I remembered it to this day. And that will get you feeling stuff. So gratitude is a feeling exercise, not an intellectual one. You actually have to get the generate…
• Social Media — Concept · Contributing factor (referenced) · 5 mentions · first at 34:51
  Social media is identified as a key driver of the loneliness epidemic by replacing in-person interaction and amplifying social comparison and perceived exclusion.
  Stuff then and you're sitting at home, it makes you feel more lonely because apparently everyone is having a great time all the time except me. Even if you know that not to be…
• Psychology — Concept · Foundational domain · 4 mentions · first at 1:43
  Psychology is framed as lagging behind physical health in public sophistication; Winch emphasizes translating psychological science into actionable tools for everyday life.
  Well, we are about a 100red years behind in our sophistication of psychology and how it impacts our daily lives than we are in terms of physical health. like if you get a cut on your arm,.
• mental health — Concept · Core topic · 3 mentions · first at 0:24
  Mental health is discussed as mainstreamed via TED and as distinct from severe disorders; the focus is on everyday psychological injuries and prevention-oriented practices.
  Schizophrenia and bipolar and depression. I'm much more interested in regular people and how they can be healthy in the day-to-day as opposed to when they get really have…
• Self-esteem — Concept · Core topic · 3 mentions · first at 0:56
  Self-esteem is treated as an 'injury' after rejection/failure; Winch advises against self-criticism and recommends structured self-affirmation lists to restore confidence.
  Don't do that. B, because your self-esteem is hurting as is your confidence, the task you should do is to revive your self-esteem and confidence.
• emotional injuries — Concept · Core framing concept · 3 mentions · first at 2:28
  Emotional injuries (e.g., rejection, heartbreak) are framed as real harms requiring timely, evidence-based care, paralleling physical injury treatment urgency.
  Stitch? Do I need to rush to the ER cuz it's gushing? You have a sprain. You know what to do. We get psychological injuries all the time like rejection and failure, loneliness, stress and burnout.
• psychological injuries — Concept · Core framing concept · 2 mentions · first at 3:02
  Psychological injuries are positioned as frequent (rejection, failure, loneliness, stress) but under-recognized; Winch argues people lack 'first aid' literacy to prevent escalation.
  And most people don't even classify that as a psychological injury. They certainly don't think, Oh, wow. They're actually treatments that are science-based that I can apply here to.
• psychological first aid — Concept · Core framework · 2 mentions · first at 3:16
  It is introduced as immediate, practical intervention for psychological injuries (rejection, failure, loneliness) to prevent worsening—mirroring first aid for physical injuries.
  And you coin the terms emotional hygiene and psychological first aid. What does that mean exactly?
• cognitive abilities — Concept · Supporting mechanism · 2 mentions · first at 5:53
  Cognitive performance is used to argue that overwork reduces productivity: fatigue diminishes mental abilities, creativity, and decision-making quality.
  Get burnt out if people do that. And not just that, in the daytoday, like our engine, our cognitive, our mental abilities diminish with fatigue.
• Artificial Intelligence — Concept · Secondary topic · 2 mentions · first at 30:53
  AI is discussed in terms of job displacement, retraining, and a potential premium on human interaction; it is tied to purpose and future work identity.
  There'll be a premium on talking to humans in certain capacities because of, that sizable segment of the population that's I am, AI, I'm a no to AI. I only.
• Self-Talk — Concept · Actionable tool (discussed) · 1 mention · first at 36:48
  Self-talk is discussed through identity-based statements ('I am...') and as a risk when it becomes self-critical after rejection, impacting motivation and self-esteem.
  How important is it the self-t talk, the changing your identity, manifestation, daily statements of gratitude? I just decided to tell myself because I'm going to be doing 15,000.
• Nature versus nurture — Concept · Secondary topic · 1 mention · first at 41:55
  The episode briefly addresses how genetics and environment jointly shape outcomes, with Winch using his identical twin experience to illustrate within-family differences.
  Grief. one final question I just thought of going back to my psychology days in college is we talked a lot about nature versus nurture and I think people are born with a lot of great things. I mean but nurture is such a big piece of.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Unless we understand how stress is impacting us, not just at work, but at home in all the different ways that it does, and there are many of them, and unless we take care of it everywhere, it's just going to keep multiplying. Guy Winch is a renowned psychologist, bestselling author, and leading voice in the science of emotional health. His three TED talks have been viewed over 35 million times, helping to bring mental health into mainstream conversation. Get him off the heartbreak is not a journey, it's a fight.

0:32 Guy is best known for translating psychological science into practical, actionable tools that people can use in everyday life. Ruminating always feels like we're doing something important when in fact we're doing something harmful.

0:45 He specializes in the field of overcoming rejection, failure, burnout, loneliness, and work-related stress. His best-selling book, The Squeaky Wheel, teaches us about healthy ways to cope with stress, to improve relationships, and improve self-esteem. Get ready. This conversation will reshape the way you think about mental and emotional health. Welcome to the Mellow Millionaire. Today, I got Guy Winch with me. This guy is amazing. We're going to talk about the brain. He's a psychologist. Over 35 million views on TED Talk. Mr. Guy Winch is a renowned psychologist. bestselling author and leading voice on mental health. Guy is best known for creating practical actionable tools that people can use in everyday life, especially around rejection, failure, burnout, loneliness, and work stress. Guy, it's a pleasure to have you on. I know you're super busy.

1:35 I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into this profession, what you're excited about.

1:43 I I was interested in psychology since I was a a teenager. It's very fortunate when you actually know what you want to be when you're a young person because then you don't have to spend 20 years figuring it out. So, uh, I kind of belined straight toward that. Came to the US, got a PhD. And when I was getting my PhD, I realized I'm not that interested in the, you know, schizophrenia and bipolar and depression. I'm much more interested in regular people and how they can be healthy in the day-to-day as opposed to when they get really have mental disorders. So, that was something I kind of gravitated toward from the get- go.

2:18 You said I was reading a bunch of stuff and uh we spend more time making our teeth healthy than our brains. So, you've also said that we need to treat emotional injuries with the same urgency as we treat physical injuries. Can you just elaborate on why this is so important? Well, we are about a 100red years behind in our sophistication of psychology and how it impacts our daily lives than we are in terms of physical health. You know, like if you get a cut on your arm, you can tell pretty much most people can tell, does that require just, you know, like to wash it? Do I need to put a bandage on it? Do I does it need a stitch? Do I need to rush to the ER cuz it's gushing? You have a sprain. You know what to do. We get psychological injuries all the time like rejection and failure, loneliness, stress and burnout.

3:09 And most people don't even classify that as a psychological injury. They certainly don't think, "Oh, wow. They're actually treatments that are science-based that I can apply here to feel better quickly, to soothe, so it doesn't get worse." And there are all those things, but just no one's bringing them to the four. No one's discussing them. So people's ignorance about it is really holding them back and costing them. And my mission as it were is to try and like let's let's catch up here. We know a lot. Let's use some of that.

3:38 And you coin the terms emotional hygiene and psychological first aid. What does that mean exactly?

3:45 Well, look, as I said, like you said, like you brush your teeth, you floss, you take vitamins, you there's daily actions we do to maintain our physical health, our dental hygiene. We don't have anything like that in terms of psychology that everyone to everyone brushes their teeth, right? Everyone checks the weather. So they're dressed appropriately. Everyone if they're not feeling well will kind of rest a little bit or have, you know, like some soup if their throat is bothering them. Like there there's nothing that everyone does for psychological injuries. When we get rejected, for example, it hurts. It stings. It hurts everyone. No one knows what to do. And there's stuff you can actually do. You know, burnout is at is at really high proportions at epidemic proportions. It's highest than it's ever been over these past years. People know it. No one knows what to do about it.

4:32 You know, people, oh, I'll add an hour of yoga and I'm like, bravo. Not going to do much. So, you know, there's just tons of stuff we need to do. So, emotional hygiene is about what are the daily practices that we can have that will keep us healthy emotionally. Yeah. You know, I I've heard a lot of people talk about burnout. I've just never experienced it. I think people pride themselves on 5 hours of sleep, not eating healthy, sacrificing time with family to work and high achievers often pride themselves um toughness and not showing weakness.

5:07 When is that mindset actually become a liability there? Everything you said. In other words, all those people I think it's a liability for them because look, we have an engine, right? And and look, you you're athletic. You know that when you're working out, you can't just do it all the time. Muscles have to rest. Muscles grow in the resting, not in the working out, right? I mean, that's how muscles grow. Like, they grow when you rest. You have to actually take care of your body for it to be healthy. You can't just drive it 24/7. Do it for a week. If you have to do it for a week, if you do it for continual periods, you're going to get sick and you're going to get really sick and you will get burnt out if people do that. And not just that, in the daytoday, you know, like our engine, our our cognitive, our mental abilities diminish with fatigue.

5:58 So, you're actually not going to be that productive by working 14 hours a day. Hours 10 to 14 are going to be [ __ ] And and so you really kind of need to like give it rest, take breaks to recharge, to actually get your mental capacities, the creativity, the drive, the thinking, decision-m to make them at peak. You can't just keep like going and going and going. It's a real fallacy. It's a real misunderstanding of how our mind works to think that. So, I want to dive into this because we all face rejection, failure, burnout, loneliness, work stress, family stress, this AI world we're going into. What's the best way to uh what should we be doing? Look, so so this this new book that I wrote was about the fact that what I noticed about burnout and stress is that as it's peaking in the workplace, you know what else is peaking in the workplace? Our awareness of why that's a problem. our awareness of the importance of work life

6:55 balance also peaking in the workplace. So how come we're so much more aware and yet we're doing so poorly? And the reason is the problem is not what happens at work. It's part of the problem. The problem is that we then take all of that home with us and we do things at home and we mismanage the stress at work that makes it in ways that make it worse and then we take it home. So that stress keeps pingponging back from our personal lives to our work life. There's research that shows, for example, when you get home really, really stressed, and by you I mean anyone gets home really, really stressed, they're likely to have conflict with their partner, and they're likely to infect their partner with that stress. So much so that their partner can start developing symptoms of burnout just from the what they're taking in from what you're doing. And so then you're stressed at home, then you're actually more susceptible to stress at

7:46 work, which will then make you more susceptible to stress at home. Bang, bang, bang, bang. That will keep going on. And unless we understand how stress is impacting us, not just at work, but at home in all the different ways that it does, and there are many of them, and unless we take care of it everywhere, it's just going to keep multiplying.

8:03 Do we just have tough conversations or do we meditate? Do we breathe a certain way, certain timeouts per day? What's the easiest best strategy?

8:13 Look, there there's no easy way to to physical health. You actually have to work out. You have to invest time and effort and dedication in it. It's kind of the same thing. Number one. Number two, there are many different strategies. In this book, I talk about a lot of different approaches. I'll give you one example. Here's something that that stresses people out. And that is the afterwork emails. People put whatever hours they put in in the office. Then they get home and they're looking at their phone every 5 minutes because a work email might come in and they might have to respond, but they don't know if they have to respond. They have to see who it's from. So, keep checking the phone. keep checking the f, you know, when when you're in a difficult workplace, you're like in fight or flight mode all day because you're activated. You're waiting for this tension and for that conflict and for this pressure. Your body is, you

8:58 know, has cortisol going through it. You're literally activated in that way and you're doing it throughout the evening until you go to bed. You just put in 4 hours of unpaid overtime that was completely unproductive by glancing at your phone. Because if you're at home and you're thinking about work, you're at work. So, what's the solution? You have to decide on like 15 20 minutes in the evening when you get home. And at that time on your decision when it's good for you, when it's good for you, your family, whatever you're doing, you'll check emails then. And until then, you don't look at your phone. So you do it in 20 minutes. And that way you are thinking about your evening as what the evening is about. It's about hanging out with my family. It's about binging this show with my partner. It's about any of those things. And then you take an intermission from that evening to do work emails. And

9:47 your brain, the way it works is your brain registers the intermission as, oh, that's just a break. That's not the main thing. And so it comes down from the stress and it doesn't even go into that much stress when you take the intermission to do work emails because you're just kind of dipping in. So there ways we need to kind of trick our brain into doing things that are much more adaptive, much more productive, and allow us to then calm down and and set and reset and recharge so we're not that depleted and much less likely to have burnout. You know, I meet a lot of people that don't really know much about time management. They don't know how to protect their calendar. I got this thing called Jesse's big ass calendar where it shows the whole year and I time block the most important things in my life which are family, faith, uh working out the stuff that's just non-negotiable.

10:36 How important is time management? Look, what you're doing is actually something I'm I'm so glad to hear that. I'm so glad it is something I recommend in the book and I cannot tell you how few people do it. the family time, time for faith, time for family, time for partnership, time for friends, t that's what life is about in the work life balance, right? The life part. So when you block it out on your calendar, it's protected. It means you can't put another appointment there without having to move something. It's an it's obvious conflict. Everyone should actually look at their evenings and not just keep it blank, but right, what's my purpose here? You you're doing something that seems simple, but it's actually really important. Your brain registers that those are important times and it makes you more likely to protect them. You said you haven't been burnt out. Tommy, that's why that's one of the reasons you

11:25 haven't been burnt out. You had this natural instinct to protect what's important and many people don't.

11:31 I have an interesting one for you. I've got a buddy of mine. He just came on the podcast. He exited the company exited for 2.5 billion. He was the co-founder and he had all this money and he's on this private plane and he's flying about 3 hours away and he goes, "I just started writing. What makes me happy? What are the things that I just love to do?" And he wrote down 162 things. Now, here's the catch. 142 of them are free. They didn't cost a dime. It's just interesting to me because in the United States, and I'm the same way. I'm a I'm a hunter, you know? I I go and I money's become a priority. The problem is with a hunter mentality, enough is never enough. And so now I'm really working on saying, man, there's so many great things. You can't buy time. You can buy time if you get a great assistant and you, you know, you know how to delegate, but for the most part, you're not going to get it

12:27 back. You know, what do you say? Most people that listen to this podcast are overachievers. They're a type personality. they're looking to win. But um you know what do you say to hunters out there?

12:39 So by the way type A personalities that concept I mean it's a little bit out of favor these at this point but that concept began because type A personalities were found to be prone to get heart attacks. That's how it became a thing. It's like because you're so driven, you're so motivated, you're so neglectful of the other areas of your life, of your self-care, of your health, of those things that you are going to get a heart attack or you are at much higher risk for doing that. And I am also quite an ambitious person and I'm very very driven and I'm very very motivated. I've made all the mistakes, but I've learned to balance it. I've learned to do it in a healthy way. And it turns out the healthier way is the more successful way because you won't burn out because you'll be much more productive in the hours that you are dedicating because the time that you have away from work with your family,

13:34 with your kids, reading a story to your daughter, whatever else was on the 162 items on that guy's list, you will actually get much more out of it because you're present for it. You know it's important as opposed to sitting there with your daughter when your mind's at work and you're constantly thinking about the next thing. That's where mo most people go wrong. The thing that people are trying to optimize all the time is how much they can get done is success is is moving forward. But again, what's the goal there? Like you're moving forward what matters. I'm sure what you said the 142 items were free.

14:06 None of them were about work. They were all stuff that happens outside of work. We lose sight of that. It takes the exit and the $2.5 billion to actually then sit on a private plane and take the time to actually let me actually think this through now cuz now I can.

14:20 No, no, you're right. You know, because we I've talked to, you know, Gino Mc Gino Wickman's been on the podcast. I think we we try to build these great big businesses and then we sell it for lots of money and then we feel empty. like everything we wanted we accomplished and then we're like I I met another guy he sold several years ago for $3 billion. He told me I'd give back the three billion. I'd give it back to give my company back because that he tied his worth into it. It he loved going into work. I mean it gave him purpose.

14:56 There's a great book Victor Frankle a man's search for meaning and we still need meaning. And I think sometimes when you retire, well, I I don't know how to retire. I don't even know what that even means, but certain people, they go golfing and they get out on the beach, they're three weeks in and they're like, "Okay, this was fun. Now, let me get back to to purpose." What are your thoughts on that that that mentality? Look, you're totally right because motivated, driven people, you know, um they need a goal to work toward. And the problems with big goals like when you start a company when you have an exit is that the minute you reach the goal and by the way you know what the research says about where joy is where life satisfaction is in the pursuit of the goal. Reaching it is such a momentary thing and then there's a whopping crash because now what? Now I don't have another goal. Now if all along you had

15:57 more balance, if all along it was about but also my family but also these other things I do, these other interests, these other passions, the friends, whatever the thing is, then you have less of a fall. But in general, retirement, I'm just going to comment on retirement. It's a huge problem for people who are driven. Like I'm very honest with myself. Do you know when I'm going to retire? When I'm dead because I will be depressed if I retire. I'm used to, you know, like I like what I do. I'm used to, you know, I will do less of it.

16:26 I will do it at a slower pace. I will integrate more of those 162 items or 142 of them, whatever, into my life, but I really like what I do. Why would I want to? This is what you know. So, I am by no means saying, hey, stop working or don't strive, don't set goals, don't be ambitious. The opposite. I'm saying do all of that, but do it at a pace that is balanced. do it in a way that your emotional health that your physical health is not compromised because that's where people tend to go wrong. And and and this guy that retired a lot, you know what people do when they retire?

17:02 They put zero thought, you know, like I'm going to retire and it's going to be great. I I'll I'll golf and and then they stop and then ah now what? And like yeah, you didn't make any plans. You don't know what that life is going to look like. You are going to get depressed. Now, the answer is don't go back to work full-time, but find the next goal. Maybe it's a little bit of a less intense one so that you don't have to like work that hard, but yes, plan ahead. If you're the type that's really ambitious, if you're the type that wants to be a millionaire and a billionaire, you won't you're not switching that off when you retire. There's no magic age where you go, all my drive has now disappeared. That just doesn't happen.

17:40 How important is it the self-t talk, the changing your identity, manifestation, daily statements of gratitude? Uh, you know, I just decided to tell myself because I'm going to be doing 15,000 steps and I want to live that way. So, I got to change who I am. And I'm describing myself as a long-distance walker. Like, I am becoming a a long-distance brisk walker. Uh but how important is that to just stay optimistic and I am statements and and manifestation and and what to be thankful for?

18:15 You have some really really good instincts. Uh because I'm going to tell you some the research. Um the research is that when somebody wants to shift their steps so that they're doing 15,000 steps. If they say to themselves, I am someone who will do 15,000 steps, they're going to be much less motivated than I am a long-d distanceance walker because I am a long-distance walker. What that statement does is it folds the goal into your identity. It's part now of who you are. And so if you don't walk now, you're in conflict with who you are. It'll bother you that you didn't reach 15,000 steps. But if you're just somebody who does 15,000 steps, you can do sometimes you don't do. It's much less, you know, at conflict with who you are. So that instinct to kind of define yourself by the terms you want to live by is great. It's very powerful. It's very motivating. So you know, good on that. Um, gratitude. You mentioned

19:13 gratitude. Gratitude also tons of science behind gratitude. It's important for this reason. It really gives us a balance. Gratitude reminds us what it's about because it depends, you know, like the thing people when I ask them to do a gratitude exercise, they often get it wrong what that means. They'll sit and and they'll, you know, like the my my clients will come to me and they go, "Okay, today I was grateful for the sun." And I'm like, and they're like, "That's it, the sun." I'm like, "No, it's not how gratitude works. Gratitude is not listing things." You have to actually articulate what about the sun are you grateful for? Oh, because when the sun is bright, my mood is improving and I love the the the feeling of warmth on my skin and it reminds me of, you know, of when I was young and we would have spring and that was such a great time of year. Like, you have to actually elaborate why you're grateful. The the

20:01 exercise isn't name the gratitude. It's articulate, explain it because that's when you're actually activating parts of your brain that you're that's when you're doing something emotional. Naming it doesn't do it. Gratitude, you have to feel it, you know. So, or it can be toward a person, you know, like I I like the the person gratitude. Like, think of somebody in your, you know, in your life that that did something small or big or whatever that was very meaningful. Maybe you never really fully express to them how meaningful it was. It's an exercise I've done numerous times and then you write them a letter or you call them up and you say, "Hey, this happened 20 years ago, 15 years ago. Thank you for what you did. It was really meaningful in my life. I remembered it to this day." And that will get you feeling stuff. So gratitude is a feeling exercise, not an intellectual one. You actually have to get the generate the

20:49 emotion when you're uh doing it. Well, there was a lot, but but you know what I've realized is I've got ADHD like many entrepreneurs, but when I have somebody that helps me focus and they keep me systematized and they help me time manage, I could get way more done than most people and I could think harder and I could go into complex problems and I could whiteboard solutions. And you know, I had this epiphany the other day because I send out messages. I send handwritten letters, birthday cards. We've got 1300 that I work with and I'm the CEO and founder. And then I realized I should be doing this to my family. And then I've got a dream 100 list of 100 people that will change my life by getting the right people around me and just staying top of mind. But I'm systematizing it. I'm building like this this pretty sophisticated system software. And the whole point is next time I'm in Italy, I'm going to send out

21:48 to all the people that I care about a I'll call it a coaster at an Italian restaurant and it's going to have a a drink on it. It's going to say, "Next time you're in Italy, you got to check out this place cuz I'm thinking about you and I wish you were here." But the more I do those things, the better off. It's just staying top of mind. It's a different way I think of saying thank you. But I like the idea of calling people and saying, you know, you don't know this, but a long time ago, you changed everything for me. We don't we barely do it. But it but it's Look, here's the thing. When when you're in Italy and you are sending somebody that that text or whatever the thing would be uh of here's the coaster, here's a drink, you should check out this place.

22:29 I'm thinking of you. What you're doing is you're not just expressing gratitude. You you're actually connecting to that person. You feel you actually will feel in that moment a closeness to them. you generated that yourself internally psychologically by thinking of them in that moment and doing that kind of that that gesture and and and writing that thing. They'll feel it as well when they receive it. So you're actually fostering you're you're deepening a connection but there are people in our life who we appreciate who appreciate us who we're connected to who we're close to makes us fundamentally feel good and and so that's a very very powerful thing. Can I say something about ADHD? ADHD I consider a superpower, but it's like it's like light that needs to be harnessed into a laser, right? So like and look, so people with ADHD are known to like um hyperfocus. When it's something they're interested in, they

23:24 get lost in it. They can they can completely go into flow. They can hyperfocused. That's when everyone around them is, "Hey, hey, I'm talking to you. Hey, I'm talking to But you're like so absorbed, you know, in what you're doing." So it's all about being able to harness it. It's being able to kind of know where it's tripping you up because it trips you up in plenty of places, especially stuff that's not that interesting to you. Time management is one of those places. A lot of blind spots that come with it. You need to get on top of the blind spots. In this book, Mind Over Grind, I have a whole chapter about typical blind spots, including time management blind spots and how and and what you need to set up so that you don't fall into them. Now, what you need to do with ADHD, you need to create the external structures for things that you're not great at. So, externally, it harnesses you. So, you have people and

24:13 you have systems and you have calendars and you have different things that help focus that light so it can be a laser. And that's what we all need to do. I'm going to ask you some repeat questions I asked her in every podcast and I want to jump into some other cool stuff. So, what's one piece of gamechanging advice you wish you knew in your 20s? for me. I mean, this is personal to me, right? This is personal to me. Um, look, I I I came I write about this in the book. I I came to this country as a as a as a immigrant, as somebody who who got a scholarship for school. I had nothing when I came. And I set my goals really high. And my high goals were become a psychologist. That was it. Because to me, that seemed like, okay, now now I've I didn't set them high enough, it turns out, you know, and and maybe you need to set them one at a time, which which is okay. But I when I was younger I was

25:04 undershooting. I was like if I do that that will be fine. And it's only into being fine about a year where I realized okay now where am I at? What am I I got that now what kind of thing. Having constant goals and setting them high enough that you're constantly challenged is something that I wish I would have uh somebody would have uh smack some sense into me back when I was younger. You know what's interesting about that is uh I was talking I was doing an orientation with 42 guys yesterday and I said if you dream bigger and then reverse engineer those dreams and they said how do you reverse engineer them? I said give me your goal.

25:42 Give me your dream. And I showed them how I do it. I put the dream on the top right and I said what would need to happen? You work backwards right h you know happiness is a weird phrase because I'm happy and sad throughout the day. I'm not generally over I'm I'm a happy guy, but it's just work backwards and say this would have to be true. This would have to be true. This is what I need to do. And it's like it's almost like unlocking a superpower. Working backwards is key to almost most problem solving for here's a really really silly one but very very common one. somebody has a is having a problem at work with a a co-orker, with a co-founder, with a report, with a client, with whatever it is, and they come like, I'm going to have I'm going to talk to them about this issue, and I ask them a question that befuddles most people. And it's such a simple question.

26:32 Um, what is the outcome you're trying to get in that conversation? What is the goal? You want to walk away from that conversation having achieved what? And they look at me like, I haven't thought about it that way. And I'm like, first of all, that's the only way to think about it because otherwise you're just going into what? To air your grievance to like like if you don't know where you're going, you can't work backwards to figure out the best way to get there. And so every time you have an issue that you're trying to solve, you got to figure out what does the solution look like for me and then reverse engineer, work backwards to figure out what's the simplest way to get there. Because it's not about airing your thoughts or telling them this or telling them that.

27:13 If the goal is make the work relationship better, it might not be about airing your thoughts. It might be about coming with something very very simple and just suggesting hey how about going forward we do this maybe less satisfying emotionally much more effective. So unless you know what you want to get out of a situation any situation certainly your your long-term goals and your and and and your big dreams then you can't work backwards to figure out the simplest way to do it.

27:37 I love it. Let me ask you this one. This is uh always interesting. So, let's pretend tomorrow you wake up, you got 10 million in the bank, you got you got $10 million. What are you going to do with it?

27:49 Uh, I'd probably do several things with it. I'd probably like um use some of it. So, to to give to some people to help some people out, family members, maybe some friends. Um, that would be one thing I would do. Um, and because giving is a is, you know, that kind of thing is actually very rewarding. Um, and I might use some of it to kind of buy myself a year off so I can work on a passion project, say, without having to like, you know, like, no, I'm actually I'm devoting money to it. So, like, I don't have to worry about making money that year or or using money that year. This is, you know, earmarked for that. And then I would maybe pursue a passion project. But in general, I I'm in this fortunate situation of I love what I do.

28:35 So I I don't need to reinvent stuff or to like oh if I had $10 million you know like the you know just fall on me then I would be able to do something different. I pretty much want to continue doing what I do.

28:47 What is your biggest professional dream at the moment for me? Um, well, look, I I have this book that just is is just coming out, Mind Over Grind, and I uh think it could be a real gamecher for people in the workplace, cuz I think it could really help them improve their product at work and their quality of life outside of work. And so, for me, my biggest professional dream at the moment is is is for more people to know about the book and to actually use the tools in it. Um, and so I that's one of my missions right now, like for people to hear about this these techniques and people to realize like I can be, you know, I can do better here. I I I've bought a lot of books recently on feedback. I've only respected people that gave me true feedback. I don't need to hear the good stuff, but I know I'm different. And if you're going to give feedback, it needs to be more positive than negative. But what's your best

29:38 advice for giving feedback in this fragile world we live in? So for most people it is helpful if you start with the good because if you start with the bad and they don't know if good is coming then they're going to get kind of defensive etc. So saying like here's where I think you're doing well and then I think it's a the way you need to give the constructive part of the feedback is you need to see say here's what I think you need to work on. this is how it's holding you back and and and give real examples of this is how it is or will hold you back and B this is where you could go if you fixed this like there's a way you're seeing like and some people are very defensive and and they in general are do not do well with feedback if you're telling them they're not doing something well they'll get defensive well that's not about me that's about this or well you feel you know you're you're biased or like some people will

30:33 just reject feedback no matter how nicely you try and and and give it. And and so how people respond to feedback is super important. And when anyone's telling you something, assume that if one person thinks it, maybe other person thinks it. Pay attention. I want to just touch upon I'm kind of nervous. I'm cautiously optimistic about artificial intelligence. You know, we went through the industrial revolution and one machine could handle 20 workers. those workers that got displaced, found something new. And a lot of the guys I hang out with, they're optimistic.

31:10 They're like, "The human being will always find something." And I'm like, "Yeah, but this time's different because they could upload into a robot, which next year, the humanoid, Tesla's $25 trillion market cap. Uh, it's going to be a lot of displacement." And I'm just curious from your point of view for purpose. I mean, I think about like we're probably going to live in utopia. Things are going to get commoditized. Things will become cheaper. We'll live longer. There's a lot of things we're going to solve for. I I don't know how much you've studied and on this subject, but what are your thoughts here? I mean, we're not talking long. He's Elon Musk said in 10 years there'll be 10 to one robots to each human.

31:50 Here's the thing about AI. Um, in human history, this is what tends to happen. the industrial revolution. Yes, it eliminated a lot of jobs for a lot of people and then it created a lot of jobs because all those robots needed technicians. So now a whole army of technicians and a whole army of programmers need to be created to manage them with AI. AI might eliminate a lot of jobs, but then there will be agents that you know we're using for certain things and that will create another kind of job because you'll need to find have people who will help one agent, you know, deal with this or with that. Like every time something gets taken away, new opportunities arise. I can't predict what those will be yet. But what I believe will happen a lot in the next 10 years is retraining. As that evolves, as AI becomes more and more dominant, new needs will arise and we'll have to retrain people whose jobs got eliminated

32:44 because of AI to do the new thing. Number one. And number two, there's always a backlash with people. People are, you know, there's a whole segment of the population who is just against the popular thing. Just if if it's popular, I don't like it kind of mentality. And so there's going to be a whole segment of the population, and not a small one, that's going to be like, I only want to talk to a human. I refuse to talk to you, Mr. Robert. I refuse to talk to some customer service automation AI thing. I want to talk to a human.

33:14 There'll be a premium on talking to humans in certain capacities because of, you know, that sizable segment of the population that's like, I am, you know, AI, you know, I I I'm a no to AI. I only want to talk to. So, it's very difficult to predict exactly how it'll shake out. But I'm I'm more on the optimistic than the pessimistic side. There might be some slides until we actually figure out the way forward, but we always figure out a way forward. Great answer. I'm going to hit a couple more subjects and we could close it out. So about 21% of Americans report feeling lonely. 16% they feel lonely all or most of the time.

33:54 What's the root cause of that? First of all, it's a very dangerous condition. loneliness. The the research shows that chronic loneliness presents as much risk for your long-term health and longevity as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, almost a pack of cigarettes a day. We know cigarettes will kill you. Well, so loneliness when it's chronic. It's also problematic loneliness because what it does psychologically to you. Why do people get trapped in loneliness is because it changes your perception. you you become so raw and you know in in terms of the pain that you feel and you become so cynical you start to devalue the relationships you do have you feel like well if they really cared about me they would be reaching out well you haven't reached out to them either and so there's a certain trap in which people who are lonely actually withdraw from people rather than go after them what what I think you know made it way

34:48 worse and in epidemic proportions which it is it's it's epidemic you know it's it's global is social media Um certainly look the pandemic had did not help here but social media substituted especially for younger people so many in-person interactions into virtual ones and virtual ones are just less satisfying. They're less connective and especially when people are talking to one friend while texting another about the conversation they're having with the first friend. And so, you know, there's there's a lot of facetime that we've lost with social media, with our phones being being with us. You know, you used to even just in terms of dating, you used to have to go to a bar or a meetup or an event. You actually used to have to be around people. You don't have to leave your house now until you have a guaranteed person to meet, which might not happen for us. So, you know, there's been a lot going on that's that's created the

35:40 loneliness. And the other thing, loneliness is relative. It depends solely on h on whether you feel disconnected. If you were on a on a on a on a desert island with one other person, you wouldn't feel lonely. But when you see all your friends out all the time on social media, because that's what people post. They post the good stuff then and you're sitting at home, it makes you feel more lonely because apparently everyone is having a great time all the time except me. Even if you know that not to be true, it's what it feels like. So that's why we're having this as so much of a problem and and that's why psychologically people get deeper and deeper into it and those are the risks physically and longevity wise that they you know assume when they do.

36:20 I want to just go the last few things here. Let's go over some actionable advice. I'm going to go through some scenarios and I want to hear your advice for navigating them in an emotionally healthy way. Uh give me some steps. So, number one, you get rejected from your dream job with no backup offers.

36:39 Okay? So, you're going to hurt. And here's what you here's two pieces of advice. One, something to not do. The most typical thing somebody will do in that scenario is they will start to become very self-critical. They start to reviewing, well, you know, here's how I screwed up in the interview. Here's what's not okay with my resume. Here's why I'm not good enough. Here's why they actually didn't want me. You don't know if they didn't want you because the boss's nephew came in and they gave the boss, you know, like and if not, you would have had that job. So people, you know, when we get rejected or when we fail at something, we become very self-critical and what we do then is our self-esteem is hurting and we go and we beat it into a pulp. It's fight club, you know, for some stupid reason. So A, don't do that. B, because your self-esteem is hurting as is your confidence, the task you should do is to

37:26 revive your self-esteem and confidence. So if that's happened to someone in the job and there no other options, sit and make a list of all the things that you do bring to the table. What makes you a good employee? What would make you a great candidate for that kind of job? What would make you a success in that kind of job? Write all those things down. Make the the very exhaustive list. Choose one of them and actually write some, you know, based on your experience. This is what I bring to the table and this is why I've been such a great employee in the past. to take the steps, in other words, to make yourself to remind yourself of everything that you do have that will make you great.

37:58 That will help soothe the disappointment. It'll revive your self-esteem and it'll boost your confidence because that's what you need at that time.

38:06 Brilliant. U the person you thought was the love of your life tells you they don't love you anymore.

38:12 All right. So, heartbreak is extraordinarily painful, right? Right. I mean, it's one of the painful, you know, it's one of those things that you can take somebody with no psychiatric history and within a text message of a breakup, you know, make them act completely out of their minds in desperation in like, you know, heartbroken people do desperate, desperate things. Why? Because we know that what happens in the brain, the withdrawal of romantic love in the brain activates very similar pathways that get activated when an opioid addict is withdrawing from like heroin.

38:43 And and if you see a heroin addict withdrawing like, well, of course they're desperate. They're heroin addicts. Well, so are love addicts in that way. It's very very similar. That's why they do desperate things. So, first of all, understand what's happening in your brain is your brain's going absolutely bonkers at this moment. And and and that's why you you know like you're going to feel desperate. Two things you you need to keep in mind. Number one, the no contact rule. Your goal is to get over the person. That means think about them less and less and less. Don't stalk them on social media.

39:12 Don't have contact. If it's truly over, don't have contact with them. Try and get them out of your mind as much as possible. And number two, getting over heartbreak is actually a rebuilding process because if you lost that relationship, you might have lost some of your social circle. You lost your activities on the weekend. You lost part of yourself because you used to be a wei and now you're an I again. So figure out how you need to rebuild your life and try and focus on rebuilding. Now, the first few days or weeks, depending on how serious the relationship was, you're just going to be miserable and and it's difficult to start rebuilding then. But as soon as you can get to the moving forward, then start to rebuild because that's how the healing happens. This one's not on my list. This will be the last one before we close out here.

39:55 There's a couple closeout questions, but you know, I'm really not looking for I don't think anybody does, but I'm pretty close to my mom and dad. They're in their 70s now. And you know, I don't think anybody wants to lose their parents. I mean, I I mean, they were great to me. So, I guess time heals all and I think they're going to a better place because I believe in Jesus. But, uh, you know, that's a tough one. What do you do in that scenario? I guess just remember the best in them. And look, grief is first of all, yes. I mean, it when when people's parents get to a certain age, then we start to we have something called anticipatory grief. we start thinking about, you know, the days in which they won't be here and we start a kind of a grieving process in advance because we're starting to think about that. But grief is very difficult. Um, you can't you you can't cheat the sadness of it. They're going to be a

40:48 loss when you lose them because they're part of your daily life, weekly life, however frequency, whatever frequency you're in touch with them. It is going to be and you had a good relationship. It's going to hurt. It's going to be very, very sad. It's and you just have to go through that sadness. It's not something you go you try and get over. It's something you just have to go through. It's a gauntlet, but there's no other way. What that going through means is that you have to adapt to the idea that they're no longer around. That's why people say the first year is most difficult because the first year is when all the reminders happen and for the first time they're not here for this holiday, for this birthday, for this celebration, for this moment. and and so it's the first time you're going through all those milestones without them. It will be very painful. So just anticipate that and then find ways to remember them

41:38 to keep them in your heart in some kind of active way because that can that can help. Some people like, you know, like speak to their deceased loved ones. Some people, you know, carry them around in some symbolic way. But but there's but unfortunately no shortcuts here with grief. You know, one final question I just thought of going back to my psychology days in college is uh we talked a lot about nature versus nurture and uh I think people are born with a lot of great things. I mean uh but nurture is such a big piece of it. You know, you could have two of the exact same biological babies that are raised in a different home and be fascinatingly different. What are your thoughts?

42:18 I'm an identical twin. I have a bias in that regard. I am genetically identical uh to my brother. We were raised in the same home and in some ways we're similar. In some ways we're different. We have we're much more similar than we are different. He's also a psychologist. So you can imagine um but um but it is interesting you know being a twin being an identical twin because you do see someone who's almost exactly like you but but nurture nurture really does have an impact like because and it's and it's not just in a different home like kids who were raised in the same home have different roles and different experiences within their family. My brother and I in certain ways had different experiences within our family in the same home with identical genetics. And so you know it it's nurture is very powerful and and it will and that's why we say it's like a 50% thing 60% thing. It's like you know like

43:11 it's it's it's each of those contributes significantly. Tell us a little bit about some key lessons in the book.

43:18 So uh the book is called mind over grind how to break free when work hijacks your life. The key lessons of the book are that there are many many ways that when we are very driven and very passionate, we tend to go on autopilot and just kind of like barrel forward without actually being much more uh deliberate about how we manage ourselves both in work and outside of work. And we could actually be much more effective and get there in a much healthier way, maybe even get there faster if we actually take care of the machinery up here in ways that we typically don't. So, so the the the book is very science-based. It talks about the science of of of what you know there's a lot of science about how we manage ourselves in the workplace and outside of it. Um, and how to and and what the problems that arise are. You know, this how work does hijack our thoughts after work and our relationships and all these other

44:10 things. And then it's full of, you know, somebody listening today, I gave some specific little exercises. It's full of exercises and tools you can use to improve. They're very practical, approachable, like you can you can implement them right away. Um, so that's uh the book mind over grind, how to break free when work hijacks your life. Um, my website is guywinch.com on social media. It's guywinch on LinkedIn or Instagram or YouTube. And um and uh and I have a Substack newsletter so people can follow me and find out more about what I'm doing. And um and I really enjoy uh talking to people about, you know, uh what's going on in their lives via shows like yours or or speaking to companies, doing whatever.

44:50 But but um it's it's always a treat. Well, Guy, I had a blast. Listen, what I do to close us out is just give you an opportunity to finish us out on any thought you want the audience to listen to.

45:01 Okay. What I want the audience to listen to is like self-improvement psychologically is an ongoing thing. You don't just do the one thing like I'm good. You're constantly asking yourself, "How can I get better? What is working for me? What's not working for me? How am I feeling?" Like, take your temperature at least once a week. Sit, have 10 minutes to ask yourself, "How am I feeling? What am I okay with? Not what am I not okay with? What upset me? What distressed me? What excites me?" And and be on top of your psychological baggage.

45:30 Because when you know what's there and what's working and what isn't, you can start to work with what you need to fix.

45:36 So, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate you. Thanks so much for listening to this episode. Like always, we're going to close it out with the Tommy truth, which is a little slice of wisdom from me to you that can help guide you in whatever you're striving towards right now. You know, if I were a young lad and I wanted to start a business, I think the most important thing is finding out something I really enjoy doing. And it's not Amazon and Tik Tok fulfillment and it's not being a influencer. Like, but what do you love to do? If you could find a passion, find something you absolutely don't mind getting up for where you're like, you wake up, your alarm goes off, and you're like, "Dude, I get to go to work. I get to I get to go to my business." I would say just do something you absolutely love and chase it. Don't let anybody tell you you can't. And that's it, guys. We'll talk

46:25 to you next week.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "The Truth About Loneliness and Burnout with Dr. Guy Winch"?

Tommy Mello (Host), Dr. Guy Winch (Guest).

What is "The Truth About Loneliness and Burnout with Dr. Guy Winch" about?

The main topic is understanding how stress, burnout, loneliness, and rejection affect mental health across work and home, and translating psychological science into practical, actionable tools to cope and improve relationships and self-esteem. It highlights Guy Winch’s focus on overcoming burnout and work-related stress with accessible strategies.

What is mentioned in this Tommy Mello episode?

25 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including stress, Guy Winch, Burnout, Mind Over Grind, emotional health, Work-Life Balance. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Truth About Loneliness and Burnout with Dr. Guy Winch"?

The episode runs 47 min; the transcript is about 9,226 words in 76 timestamped sections.

More from Tommy Mello

• All analyzed episodes
• Books mentioned on Tommy Mello
• People mentioned on Tommy Mello
• Topics mentioned on Tommy Mello